S06.E12: Not Tomorrow Yet

[peach]

I was wondering why they don't just grow weed outside now.  It's not like the cops are coming, with the exception of Officer Friendly.  But I guess a weed room is year round.

[RedheadZombie]

it was heartbreaking to see the look on Glenn's face when he killed the first man (how has he not killed a human before?  He was with them through the Governor and Terminus - I didn't realize he had never killed anyone other than walkers before), and I loved him so much for saving his companion from that.  Incredible. 

 

 

The prison fell right after the flu epidemic, when Glenn almost died. He was barely able to get himself on and off the bus becore he lost consciousness. I'm not sure how he didn't kill anyone at Terminus. He was right there at the trough where the four of them fought back and killed their captors. At the church, it was Rick, Sasha, and Abe that were hacking the Termites into tiny little pieces while Maggie and Glenn watched, but I'm surprised Glenn didn't manage to kill one of the bad guys along with Michonne.

Now that I think about it, Glenn was also part of the attack on Woodbury. I think Maggie killed Katniss, and I can't believe Glenn didn't kill anyone.

 

I don't think Tara dies because I can't imagine watching her special run, so it wouldn't be shown. I figure Denise is toast. They have a real doctor in the other town. .

But the other town is a day's drive away, so unless they plan on kidnapping Hilltop's Doctor, he's not good for much more than well checks.

[Boofish]

Glen was beaten and weak when they left Woodbury and he only killed walkers to escape Terminus.

As for Maggie I realize it was her decision but I look at it from Carols viewpoint. If I went to the store with a pregnant woman and she needed a case of water instinct would tell me to pick it up for her. Can she do it on her own? Probably. What would she do if I wasn't there? Get it herself. But I'm not going to stand there and watch her lift anything heavy. My only issue is that the conversation should have been had and resolved before they left home. I sound sexist and old fashion but I will have to agree with Carol on this one. And to quote Andrea (ugh HATE) "it's your delivery that needs work"

[Persnickety1]

god damn it.  i knew that opening scene was a set up for carol...........i will cry a lot "when" they kill carol as the season finale.......glenn, not so much.

 

to the producers...when you kill off carol, i will never, ever, ever, ever forgive u all, lol. 

 

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"i thought you were the last woman on earth....you're not"........wow, talk about insult.

"why are dingleberries brown?  cause they're shit"......omfg, gota luv abraham.

 

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Oy...Mini Persnickety is giving me "the talk" about how I must prepare for my favorite character's impending demise.  

 

It's sadly very much in the same tone as when I had to confess to her there was no Santa Claus.  

 

I've loved Carol for so many seasons....it's going to be hard to find another character for me to "bond" with on this show.  Le sigh...

 

On the upside, that shirt Eugene was wearing ("Virginia is for Lovers") was just EVERYTHING in that scene.  So ghastly inappropriate for the scene that had just unfolded and it was much needed comic relief.  

 

And Jesus....through broken glass on my hands and knees for a piece of that....YOWZA!!!!!!  

[Nashville]

Were the Saviors drugged?  'Cause they sure were heavy sleepers for them to just lie there and get stabbed in the head. 

 

Stoned, most likely - considering the patch they had on-premises.

 

 

I think they did the right thing killing the Saviors. However, I'm slightly worried that some of the people killed in their sleep weren't part of that group, but other captives just like the brother from Hilltop. 

 

Doubtful - if for no other reason the only Saviors who were sapped in their sleep were all in unlocked rooms....

 

 

Abe's stilletos.  I know Rosita meant knives but the vision I had of Abe in full drag in spiked heels was amusing.

 

You ain't alone.

 

 

"The Odd Couple - ZA Style". Zany antics will ensue.

 

Curious thing: just wondering what would constitute "zany" to either Abraham or Eugene slightly scares the everlovin' shit outta me.

 

Couldn't the whole starvation problem be lessened slightly if some of the ASZhats would simply learn how to cook acorns? I mean, there seem to be a shitload of them right outside the walls...

 

Hell, we know the baby will eat them.

 

 

Why didn't they just send Jesus in there by himself?? We wouldn't have had that great block of scenes, but the man seems to be more than capable. "They won't see me." How does he do that? I didn't even think about what someone else mentioned: that Tara was confessing to a priest and Jesus. LOL. Fitting.

 

Reminded me of Kel Mitchell's character in Mystery Men: he could become invisible - if nobody was looking at him, that is.

 

 

Most people still alive in this apocalyptic world bond so quickly and so intensely, they are saying 'I love you' after a matter of weeks or months. Most people are lucky if they find someone to care about and that person survives. It really shows the depths of Abraham's selfishness that he could spend so much time with Rosita, facing many dire situations together, and give absolutely zero fucks about her. He didn't even try to pretend he cared about her when he walked out the door. He seemed to go out of his way to be cruel. If he is going to stick with this group, you'd think he would be a little more careful, if only for his own sake. Probably not a good idea to treat someone so horribly when you may have to rely on them in a life and death situation. It's a shame the writers had to destroy Abraham as a character. He used to seem like a good guy and a fun character. He can't die fast enough now.

 

In his own hamfisted way, I think Abraham thought this was the kindest way to break up with Rosita.  Abraham cared enough for Rosita that he didn't want to string her along with (probably) futile hopes for reconciliation when he was attracted to another woman - and he also didn't want to tell her the barefaced truth because that might poison Rosita's relationship with Sasha.

 

 

But something about that priest quoting scripture while holding an AR over a man and then coldly pulling the trigger rubbed me the wrong way.

 

Actually it was a Remington Model 700 BDL .30-06 Springfield bolt action rifle with a Weaver 3x9 scope, not an AR.  So there's that.  :D

 

 

I'm getting the feeling that place they raided was just some forward outpost, that the main compound where Negan actually is located is huge and has a hundred or more people.

Helluva huge armory for an outpost, though....

[Scaeva]

What in the world are the writers doing to Morgan and Abraham?

 

These were two interesting characters that are now being ruined by the weird direction the writers are taking them. Does anyone even care any more whether they live or die?

 

Both characters need a redemption at this point, because if the writers continue down this path you're going to have the audience actively cheering for the zombies or the Saviors to kill them. I feel like they've brought the writers for Fear the Walking Dead aboard to write these two characters, with how unlikeable they've now become.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Scaeva

[HalcyonDays]

In Father Gabriel's defense, he did quote some nice scripture before busting a cap in the guy's head. I love Seth Gilliam and he was perfect last night. FG may need to go with shorter Bible readings in the future, however. I'd recommend some Old Testament quotes, maybe "Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord". POW.

 

I think one of the writers watched Pulp Fiction recently - or decided to honour it.

 

Jules (Samuel L. Jackson): "And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.”

 

I've got no problem with Father Gabriel quoting scripture (apparently slightly varied scripture) in this case. Because I would rather one quote it while being a useful and productive and saavy member of the group, than quote it and come off as a self-righteous hypocrite. Fact is, it's not the same world as before. Eat or be eaten (literally and figuratively). Survival of the fittest in this case. The morals and standards of our society right now have no place in the Apocalyptic world. At least IMO. Father Gabe finally realized it - I just wish Morgan would get off his hypocritical high horse and realize it also.

 

Just look at what that Wolf did? Look what the big group of Wolves did to ASZ? Look at how Negan's thugs were going to take out Sasha, Abraham and Daryl. Look at how the Governor dictated in Woodbury and how he treated his "people". Look at how Negan's group are Mafia-ing Hilltop and intimidating the group to get what they want? Then contrast this to Jesus, who was trying to get food, tried to trick Rick and co, but ultimately because they are all good people, demonstrate that they have compassion and respect for humanity on both sides. This episode told us that Negan's group beat a 16-year old to death just because. I'm sorry, but I'll be self-righteous myself and say these people don't deserve any sympathy or consideration. They are a human plague in the world, in a world that is already messed up. They offer no value to society that I can see - get rid of 'em. (I know, cold, eh?)

[nodorothyparker]

My initial take on Gabriel (can't call him FPP anymore in light of recent developments) was to make the Pulp Fiction comparison too.  But on rewatch, I don't think so.  Pulp Fiction's Jules is quoting Ezekiel because he thinks it sounds cold blooded and it only comes to mean something to him later.  Gabriel, on the other hand, is quoting John 14:2 "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."  It's a verse that's read a lot at funerals and is usually meant to be comforting as a promise of something beyond death.  SG's line reading came across as if he was trying to comfort both himself and the man he was about to kill. So now I have to think that's how he's reconciling the dichotomy of what he was and what he's become.

 

I'm not even going to get into how weird it is to realize I suddenly find the artist formerly know as FPP compelling.

[LeeMoon]

This episode was heavy on the Christian symbolism. Rick giving his speech in front of a cross, Jesus sitting behind Tara and the priest in a confession like surrounding talking about love as a justifiable motive to fight, the priest quoting scripture. Maybe because I'm not a Christian, it stood out to me as an inner Christian dialogue. The show has a very clear message about how to deal with threats and how Christianity fits that message.

 

On a simpler issue to tackle, what did you think about Carol saying to Maggie "you are not who you are supposed to be?"

 

It's a pretty strong sentence. Was she talking about Maggie or about herself?

[GodsBeloved]

So question:  Did Alexandria get 50% of Hilltop's stock at that moment or 50% of what they produce ongoing?  If they have the same deal as Degan got (50% ongoing), then what is the gain?  Don't they just have a different mob protecting them for 50% ... albeit a kinder and gentler mob.

From the way Rick talked to his congregation, he was presenting this as an ongoing supply of Hilltop's produce would be coming to them.

 

He said if they do this they will eat. However, they already had 6 months worth of Hilltop's produce in their possession so whether they did this or not, they would eat ... for 6 months. It does look like Hilltop is trading one collector for another and won't be gaining anything beyond this initial deal of getting rid of Negan's group.

Edited March 8, 2016 by GodsBeloved

[Bad Example]

 

On a simpler issue to tackle, what did you think about Carol saying to Maggie "you are not who you are supposed to be?"

 

It's a pretty strong sentence. Was she talking about Maggie or about herself?

 

I'm still puzzling over that one.  It confused me when I heard it and after all the discussion, I'm still not entirely sure what Carol meant.

[GodsBeloved]

All of CDB experienced Terminus (although Carol's experience was unique).  I love Rick, he's in my top three, but he's no longer what I would consider one of the level-headed members.  Daryl will always follow Rick, and Carol is as militant as Rick.  In my opinion, Glenn, Maggie, Michonne, and some of the others weren't crazy about the plan.  I wish they would have a little more input into what goes down.  Sure Rick gave them an opportunity to speak, but who's going to object after the reception that Morgan always receives?  I was really irritated that kind gentle Aaron is suddenly a killing machine who doesn't react to killing.  It didn't ring true to the character, IMO.  But the show had to make sure that Morgan could be singled out as the out of touch peacenik.

 

And while I will always root for CDB over any other group, I don't believe they are the only group in the entire country with good intentions.  I know that the group has experienced enough and suffered enough to become so tough, but I'm tired of their enemies being psychopathic monsters.  They had a five minute experience with Negan's group that showed the audience Negan is probably no good.  But really, I think it's the level of spoiling on Negan that makes the viewer not mind that an entire group of people were murdered in their own home, and even in their sleep.  The threesome that attacked Daryl/Sasha/Abe came off as the three stooges, and were easily killed.  That leaves Jesus and the Hilltoppers as the source of info on Negan. 

 

My point is - If I wasn't spoiled on Negan, I would be really nervous about the coldness and extreme nature of "kill them all".  Now CDB doesn't have the luxury of reading the comic, so I would like to have seen just a little something that shows it's not always so black and white.  Not one person was given a chance to surrender.  I feel like our group should have been given something to make them think.  Maybe they would come upon a child/teenager, or a pregnant woman.  I really thought we would see some friendly fire after Glenn and Heath shot a hundred rounds blindly through the door (not that I would have faulted them).  Instead, the bad guys were absolutely carbon-copy bad guys.  And they were all men.  It's just way too simplified, IMO.  Add to that the pictures of beaten heads, so that it guarantees the audience saying - well it's obvious CDB did the right thing.  Look at those pictures.

 

I know that CDB and the Wolves are as different as night and day.  But how different were their attacks?  They both stormed a group's home and safety, offered no negotiation or chance to surrender, and went in with the intentions of killing 100% of the group. I'm still not completely disagreeing with what they did, I just wish one thing happened to make them think.  Sure Maggie and Carol were caught, but it looks like the show is going to pin the fault on Carol.

Regardiing Rick and the "voting", really there was no voting. Only 2 people voiced their stance and Rick says that they were doing it and if you were going to stay there you had to accept it. So if the majority had voted against Rick's plan, would they have been given the same warning given to Morgan?

 

Love your entire post, especially your point about wanting the show to show that things aren't always so black and white.

Edited March 8, 2016 by GodsBeloved

[marceline]

Add me to the people who think Maggie should have stayed home. She just got done being rescued from the guard tower and now she's got to be rescued again. Also we don't have a really good idea of how pregnancy works in the ZA do we? We've been through Lori's but I still consider pregnancy too much of a wild card to bring Maggie out on a kill mission. A regular supply run? Sure but not a pre-dawn assassination mission against an unknown enemy.

 

A weed room? As someone with...ummm....experience with such things, that is a tremendous waste. Grow the weed outside. You're in Virgina. The growing season is long enough that you can get a really nice yield that will last you through the winter. Grow food inside. 

 

I'm still not a fan of the pre-emptive killing. I just keep thinking how easy it would be to kill some innocent prisoner.

[Timetoread]

Actually it was a Remington Model 700 BDL .30-06 Springfield bolt action rifle with a Weaver 3x9 scope, not an AR.  So there's that.  :D

 

Well that changes everything now that I know that he used a RIGHTEOUS rifle!  :p

 

 

The show has a very clear message about how to deal with threats and how Christianity fits that message.

 

Not sure why people believe this.  Nearly every badass warrior since the Middle Ages has been fighting in the name of God - check out The Crusades, even the story of Saint Joan - who was basically BTVS.  In the Bible all the major players EXCEPT Christ beat the crap out every -ite from Israel to North Africa. There is a difference between being a warmonger, a murderer, and a warrior. 

Edited March 8, 2016 by Timetoread

[GodsBeloved]

I think a lot of people had mixed feelings - even Rick himself looked somewhat uneasy before his first kill - but they decided they had no real choice, with such high stakes. 

 

I will have to watch the scene again, but my initial impression of Rick's uneasiness/hesitation was that he didn't want the guy to wake up. Also, the fact that Rick literally ran down a handcuffed, fleeing man and stood over hand shot him to death doesn't help me to see that Rick has mixed feelings about murdering someone who is in no position to defend themselves.

[GodsBeloved]

Why exactly was Jesus in disguise?  They planned to kill everyone, so why hide him.  

I know CDB are smelling themselves and think they are Sparty "Kill Them ALL!!" Spartacus but there was a chance someone could have seen Jesus, escaped and reported back to Negan that Hilltop was responsible for the massacre.

[lulee]

My initial take on Gabriel (can't call him FPP anymore in light of recent developments) was to make the Pulp Fiction comparison too.  But on rewatch, I don't think so.  Pulp Fiction's Jules is quoting Ezekiel because he thinks it sounds cold blooded and it only comes to mean something to him later.  Gabriel, on the other hand, is quoting John 14:2 "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."  It's a verse that's read a lot at funerals and is usually meant to be comforting as a promise of something beyond death.  SG's line reading came across as if he was trying to comfort both himself and the man he was about to kill. So now I have to think that's how he's reconciling the dichotomy of what he was and what he's become.

 

I'm not even going to get into how weird it is to realize I suddenly find the artist formerly know as FPP compelling.

That's a great read on that scene. I thought the scene with Gabriel was perfect - very much in character - and with his first human kill being of someone with a gun who posed a threat to him and Alexandria (as opposed to Gabriel joining in the offensive). The change in his character was gradual and Seth Gilliam sold it well.

 

Interesting that the Savior prattled on in a way similar to the Wolves. That says a lot about ZA psychopathology.

Edited March 8, 2016 by lulee

[flutist4fun]

Hilltop guy should have mentioned the pot-growing. It would have given Rick and co. a whole new strategy. They drive up to the door, say Hello, we'd like to buy some weed, and we'll pay with these delightful goodies from Carol's Bakeshop (the Saviours have got to have the munchies, yes?). CDB/ASZ are now safe from Negan's tools b/c even during the ZA you don't kill off your customers. Yay for capitalism.

[LeeMoon]

I'm still puzzling over that one.  It confused me when I heard it and after all the discussion, I'm still not entirely sure what Carol meant.

 

I think maybe she meant Maggie hasn't made the transition yet to being a mother who should think of her child first. But then again maybe she was talking about herself without realizing it, about her own failure as a mother.

 

Not sure why people believe this.  Nearly every badass warrior since the Middle Ages has been fighting in the name of God - check out The Crusades, even the story of Saint Joan - who was basically BTVS.  In the Bible all the major players EXCEPT Christ beat the crap out every -ite from Israel to North Africa. There is a difference between being a warmonger, a murderer, and a warrior. 

 

That's why I felt the conversation in the car was a way to reconcile Jesus himself with their fight. Since their fight was motivated by love, it was not murder, as approved by Jesus himself, the man sitting behind the priest.

 

By the way, I have a feeling Denise will never get a chance to tell Tara she loves her. I hope I'm wrong.

[Pete Martell]

I will have to watch the scene again, but my initial impression of Rick's uneasiness/hesitation was that he didn't want the guy to wake up. Also, the fact that Rick literally ran down a handcuffed, fleeing man and stood over hand shot him to death doesn't help me to see that Rick has mixed feelings about murdering someone who is in no position to defend themselves.

 

When Rick ran that guy down he was in full crazy mode, and he also asked the guy to stop running. 

 

I do agree that part of his hesitation was if the guy woke up, but I think part of his reaction was the weight of what he was doing. He's killed a lot of people, but never this way. 

[CletusMusashi]

My heart broke for poor Rosita, who has always appeared to be more in love with Abraham than vice versa. Remember the "dolphin-smooth" trip in the church bus? She was lovingly stroking his head and telling him he needed a haircut. It was bathroom mirror in the morning patter, like a very close couple totally at ease with one another. In her mind. Later in that episode Abraham, that ol' romantic son of a gun, tells Glenn that he's gonna go find Rosita, because he "needs a piece of ass". Poor Rosita wept and worried while Abraham was off on the mission with Daryl and Sasha, while Abraham spent his off-time on that trip hitting on Sasha. Then, less than 24 hours before he tells Rosita that she's not the last woman on Earth, he shtups her and tells her that she's "damned near perfect."

Well, if they're using Buffy mythology, maybe that one perfect moment caused him to lose his soul.

But of course if they're using South Park's, gingers don't have souls anyway,

[AngelaHunter]

In his own hamfisted way, I think Abraham thought this was the kindest way to break up with Rosita.

 

I just dunno about that. Saying, basically, "I thought you were the only piece of ass I was gonna get these days. Now that I see there's some ass out there I might like better, hasta la vista, baby." 

 

He's a big red pig! I think Rosita's tears were tears of rage and frustration that she didn't dump him first.

[editorgrrl]

Tobin has a son who's Carl's age. We haven't seen much of him since the episode where Carl first meets the teens of the AZ, but I'm assuming he survived the walker horde. I don't believe that Tobin's married; the only other women I've seen him around are Francine and the woman who was in charge of the armory and the food stores.

Mikey is (was?) Nicholas's son—not Tobin's. Tobin has (had?) a family. No idea if any of them survived, but Carol gave cookies to some rando ASZ kids.

[LeeMoon]

I just dunno about that. Saying, basically, "I thought you were the only piece of ass I was gonna get these days. Now that I see there's some ass out there I might like better, hasta la vista, baby." 

 

He's a big red pig! I think Rosita's tears were tears of rage and frustration that she didn't dump him first.

 

I agree - he's a pig. He showed zero concern for Rosita's feelings. I suspect he can't even register how other people feel. Eugene might be presented as lacking in social skills, but Abraham is much worse. His words proved he never saw Rosita as a person and I have no doubt he doesn't view Sasha as one as well.

 

I wonder about his version of why his wife left him. I always felt there was something more other than him killing the men that raped her. It felt more like his wife reached a breaking point following a long unhappy relationship.

[Eyes High]

I just dunno about that. Saying, basically, "I thought you were the only piece of ass I was gonna get these days. Now that I see there's some ass out there I might like better, hasta la vista, baby." 

 

He's a big red pig! I think Rosita's tears were tears of rage and frustration that she didn't dump him first.

 

To be fair to Abraham, there's probably no way to break up with someone on the basis that you're in love with (or at least more attracted to) someone else that's not going to hurt, which is probably why he didn't want to give her a reason at all until she demanded one. With that said, I agree, Abraham was horrible and this is another instance of his awfulness towards Rosita (scamming on Sasha while Rosita is sick with worry over him, calling Rosita a "piece of ass," etc. etc.).

[RedheadZombie]

My initial take on Gabriel (can't call him FPP anymore in light of recent developments) was to make the Pulp Fiction comparison too.  But on rewatch, I don't think so.  Pulp Fiction's Jules is quoting Ezekiel because he thinks it sounds cold blooded and it only comes to mean something to him later.  Gabriel, on the other hand, is quoting John 14:2 "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."  It's a verse that's read a lot at funerals and is usually meant to be comforting as a promise of something beyond death.  SG's line reading came across as if he was trying to comfort both himself and the man he was about to kill. So now I have to think that's how he's reconciling the dichotomy of what he was and what he's become.

 

I'm not even going to get into how weird it is to realize I suddenly find the artist formerly know as FPP compelling.

I agree. And I like that Gabriel seems to have kept his faith. It's such a cliche that a believer has to give up pacifism, therefore their faith.

[peach]

I agree - he's a pig. He showed zero concern for Rosita's feelings. I suspect he can't even register how other people feel. Eugene might be presented as lacking in social skills, but Abraham is much worse. His words proved he never saw Rosita as a person and I have no doubt he doesn't view Sasha as one as well.

 

I wonder about his version of why his wife left him. I always felt there was something more other than him killing the men that raped her. It felt more like his wife reached a breaking point following a long unhappy relationship.

 

Maybe he was projecting his anger over that.  When he was the last man on earth, his wife chose death.

[ghoulina]

I was really irritated that kind gentle Aaron is suddenly a killing machine who doesn't react to killing.  It didn't ring true to the character, IMO.

 

But people change. Aaron stated that after seeing what the Wolves did to his friends in ASZ, he now knows they can't keep living by the same peaceful guidelines they were before. He doesn't want another evil group out there, coming after the people he cares about. It felt very natural to me. I didn't get the sense that he was like, "Fuck yea! Let's kill some people!" On the contrary, he looked pretty disturbed a few times during the attack. It's just that he realizes that they have to make some of these hard choices now and he's not okay being complacent like they were before. 

 

When Rick starts keeping his zombie child on a chain and keeps heads in aquariums and doesn't include the entire group in a big decision like this raid or sets up Gladiator battles between Walkers and humans, we can talk about Rick being the Governor. But until such time, I reject this notion 100%.

 

Don't forget tricking National Guardsmen, killing them, and taking all of their stuff for himself. Rick would NEVER do something like that. We've never seen him attempt to take something by force that wasn't his. This group has always scavenged, and now they're trying to trade. But they're not thieves. 

Edited March 8, 2016 by ghoulina

[peach]

But people change. Aaron stated that after seeing what the Wolves did to his friends in ASZ, he now knows they can't keep living by the same peaceful guidelines they were before. He doesn't want another evil group out there, coming after the people he cares about. It felt very natural to me. I didn't get the sense that he was like, "Fuck yea! Let's kill some people!" On the contrary, he looked pretty disturbed a few times during the attack. It's just that he realizes that they have to make some of these hard choices now and he's not okay being complacent like they were before. 

 

 

 

 

Don't forget tricking National Guardsmen, killing them, and taking all of their stuff for himself. Rick would NEVER do something like that. We've never seen him attempt to take something by force that wasn't his. This group has always scavenged, and now they're trying to trade. But they're not thieves. 

He also wouldn't sexually abuse a woman to get information out of her.

If Rick were the Governor, he would have killed everyone at Hilltop, or at least any of their defenders, and ESPECIALLY Gregory.  Then taken everything for himself. Then fabricated a story about it to ASZ.  And would not hold a meeting about the Saviours situation.  And he'd have thrown Morgan in a walker pit a long time ago.

[Ocean Chick]

On a simpler issue to tackle, what did you think about Carol saying to Maggie "you are not who you are supposed to be?"

 

It's a pretty strong sentence. Was she talking about Maggie or about herself?

 

 

I think she was referring to how killing people has changed Carol and seems to be killing her inside.  She doesn't want that to happen to Maggie.  Maggie still needs a soul in order to raise her child and have a happy marriage to Glenn.  Carol is probably afraid that if Maggie keeps going on raids to kill people, the guilt will start weighing on her soul, so Maggie should let people like Carol become the sin eaters for the group.  Carol is willing to give up her life in order that people like Glenn and Maggie can have a chance at a "normal" life.  Or let the real stone-cold killers like Michonne (who has killed any number of people without it seeming to affect her) do the killing.

 

And Denise gave Tara the kiss of death by telling her that she would tell her she loves her when she gets back from the supply run.  It reminded me of the time that Beth refused to say good-bye to Zack, and look what happened to him!  Something awful is going to go down on that supply run.  I just hope Heath makes it back in order to let Denise know what happened, so she doesn't have to spend the rest of her life wondering where Tara is.  And Denise will have the heartbreak of always knowing that she never told Tara she loved her, poor thing.

[ghoulina]

When Rick ran that guy down he was in full crazy mode, and he also asked the guy to stop running.

 

Right. And this was a guy who had just tricked Sasha and nearly killed her to get away. Rick will defend, to the death, any members of his group. 

 

I agree - he's a pig. He showed zero concern for Rosita's feelings. I suspect he can't even register how other people feel. Eugene might be presented as lacking in social skills, but Abraham is much worse. His words proved he never saw Rosita as a person and I have no doubt he doesn't view Sasha as one as well.

I wonder about his version of why his wife left him. I always felt there was something more other than him killing the men that raped her. It felt more like his wife reached a breaking point following a long unhappy relationship.

 

I always wondered if there was more there too. Because if that were my husband, I would have been fine with what he did. 

 

Abraham just seems like an ass. Plain and simple. He could have been honest with Rosita in a much gentler way. He could have said, "Look, when I first met you, we were all each other had. We went through a lot together and developed a tight bond. I still care very much for you as a person, but after some time to settle down and think about things, I realize that I just don't feel for you like you feel for me, and this isn't fair to either of us". 

 

But then again, maybe what he said is literally how he felt, and there's no sugarcoating that. If so, fuck him. 

[GodsBeloved]

Don't forget tricking National Guardsmen, killing them, and taking all of their stuff for himself. Rick would NEVER do something like that. We've never seen him attempt to take something by force that wasn't his. This group has always scavenged, and now they're trying to trade. But they're not thieves. 

I think Rick and Carol more than showed they have no qualms taking what's not theirs. They were planning on taking over Alexandria if the folks who built that community didn't fall in line/come around to their way of thinking. CDB had the option to leave but Rick and Carol were of the mindset that if they didn't get with it, CDB would take over.

[LadyMustang65]

It does look like Hilltop is trading one collector for another and won't be gaining anything beyond this initial deal of getting rid of Negan's group.

 

Well, the initial deal of getting rid of Negan's group is huge!  We know that the Saviors have indiscriminately killed several of the Hilltoppers, and they seemed to me to be pretty afraid of them.  Having that burden removed would be worth a whole lot of food.  Plus, Rick's group has the ability to teach the Hilltoppers how to fight, which most of them don't really seem to know how to do.  With Rick's group they have another village that functions much the same as they do, so they would be natural allies.  Were another group like the Saviors to appear, I believe Hilltop could count on Rick's group to help protect them.  There is a lot that they can teach each other, and there is no reason to think this would not be a mutually beneficial arrangement.

[Eyes High]

Abraham just seems like an ass. Plain and simple. He could have been honest with Rosita in a much gentler way. He could have said, "Look, when I first met you, we were all each other had. We went through a lot together and developed a tight bond. I still care very much for you as a person, but after some time to settle down and think about things, I realize that I just don't feel for you like you feel for me, and this isn't fair to either of us". 

 

But then again, maybe what he said is literally how he felt, and there's no sugarcoating that. If so, fuck him. 

 

Abraham seems like the kind of guy who thinks that gentleness, sensitivity and tact are for pussies.

[ghoulina]

I think Rick and Carol more than showed they have no qualms taking what's not theirs. They were planning on taking over Alexandria if the folks who built that community didn't fall in line/come around to their way of thinking. CDB had the option to leave but Rick and Carol were of the mindset that if they didn't get with it, CDB would take over.

 

But they didn't scout out ASZ, come in under the cover of night, kill everyone, and take it by force. They were INVITED. BECAUSE they were so badass. Deanna knew they needed people who were experienced fighters, to get that place in order. There was resistance at first, and yes, a few of them contemplated having to just take it over. But it never actually came to that, and I don't know that it would. 

[Boofish]

But they didn't scout out ASZ, come in under the cover of night, kill everyone, and take it by force. They were INVITED. BECAUSE they were so badass. Deanna knew they needed people who were experienced fighters, to get that place in order. There was resistance at first, and yes, a few of them contemplated having to just take it over. But it never actually came to that, and I don't know that it would. 

I think they would have only fought if they tried to get Rick to leave. And in the beginning they were still not trusting and I don't blame them; Alexandria did seem to good to be true after everything that has happened to them. That plan was in case after their "interviews" they were not deemed worthy enough to stay. Not just sitting around one night bored and decided to "kill 'em all" and take their safe haven.

 

Let's also not forget Rick did say "you don't have to do it, you don't have to like it, but if you are going to stay here, you have to accept it" My mother used to tell me and my sisters the same thing about living in her house and she wasn't the Governor she was just a really good leader!!!!!

[AngelaHunter]

Quote

When he was the last man on earth, his wife chose death.

 

As would I. Abe is the type of loud-mouthed, overbearing blowhard I just can't tolerate. I can't recall him saying one appreciative, affectionate or respectful thing to Rosita.

 

Quote

(Rick) also wouldn't sexually abuse a woman to get information out of her.

 

No.No sex. He would just dig his fingers into her bullet wound to try and torture the info out of her.

 

Quote

And (the Governor) have thrown Morgan in a walker pit a long time ago.

 

Too bad Morgan didn't stumble upon Woodbury.

 

To be fair to Abraham, there's probably no way to break up with someone on the basis that you're in love with (or at least more attracted to) someone else that's not going to hurt

 

 

I agree there's no way to make it NOT hurt. However, the "I was with you because your ass was the only alternative to my right hand. Now I see there's lots better out there. I'm outta here." is probaby up there with the "Top Three Most Despicable Breakup Lines Ever."

Edited March 8, 2016 by AngelaHunter

[peach]

After being attacked by the Governor in a tank, surviving Terminus, and dealing with the bureaucratic Grady Hospital kidnappers, Rick and Carol thought they would have to take over ASZ in order to save it, not steal it.  Their appalling naivete and lack of security was the problem, not Rick's lust for power or stuff.  Or thangs.

[peach]

As would I. Abe is the type of loud-mouthed, overbearing blowhard I just can't tolerate. I can't recall him saying one appreciative, affectionate or respectful thing to Rosita

He also physically threatened her once, at which point Maggie threatened to shoot him.  I've always found him unbearable.  So yeah, maybe his wife could live with him if she had an outside world of friends, family, work, Facebook, Previously TV, and other distractions...but if he's the last person to hang out with?  NO.

 

 

No.No sex. He would just dig his fingers into her bullet wound to try and torture the info out of her.

 

Well, Michonne might do the same, so she never held that against him.  They "get" each other. lol  If he'd made her strip and bend over a table, he'd have been a shish-ke-bab, too.

[Boofish]

After being attacked by the Governor in a tank, surviving Terminus, and dealing with the bureaucratic Grady Hospital kidnappers, Rick and Carol thought they would have to take over ASZ in order to save it, not steal it.  Their appalling naivete and lack of security was the problem, not Rick's lust for power or stuff.  Or thangs.

FOR THE WIN

 

I forgot about the land of misfits and broken toys that was Grady Memorial Hospital. That fact that he didn't shove those idiots to the side and take all the provisions they would need says tons about his character. 

[Pete Martell]

I always wondered if there was more there too. Because if that were my husband, I would have been fine with what he did. 

 

Abraham just seems like an ass. Plain and simple. He could have been honest with Rosita in a much gentler way. He could have said, "Look, when I first met you, we were all each other had. We went through a lot together and developed a tight bond. I still care very much for you as a person, but after some time to settle down and think about things, I realize that I just don't feel for you like you feel for me, and this isn't fair to either of us". 

 

But then again, maybe what he said is literally how he felt, and there's no sugarcoating that. If so, fuck him. 

 

I think Abraham's wife was very sheltered, and he probably liked her that way - the big man protecting the little lady. That also fits the early image of Rosita, who looks just a bit like his wife, and when he picked her up, she needed him (hadn't her group just been killed, or her sister, or something?). As time has passed and Rosita has become more than just the babe in Daisy Dukes, she hasn't really "needed" Abraham as much, although she clearly still loved him. I can see Abraham then slowly moving into a mindset that if a woman doesn't need him, he should find someone he needs, and that seems to be Sasha, who is very guarded, very tough, and very steely - much like Abraham himself, minus the stupid comments. 

 

These women are therapy to Abraham. I just hope that Sasha doesn't go along with what he wants. It annoys me that I am seeing hate for her because of this storyline. If people hate her for whatever other reason, everyone has their own opinion, but she's done nothing to encourage Abraham. Just the opposite. 

 

Anyway, here's what Michael Cudlitz said about the scene (this also has big comic spoilers so be warned):

 

http://comicbook.com/2016/03/07/the-walking-dead-michael-cudlitz-talks-abraham-rositas-big-scene/

Edited March 8, 2016 by Pete Martell

[Ouisch]

Rick's comment to FPP about his collar made me wonder if the preacher has an unlimited supply of those somewhere...because back in the episode when our gang was walking on foot to Washington, when they were starving and dying of thirst and ended up eating a pack of wild dogs, he ripped off his collar and threw it in the fire. And IIRC he wasn't carrying a backpack or any sort of luggage.

[AngelaHunter]

I've always found him unbearable.

 

Me too. I thought I might start to like him when he saved the ASZ woman in the field, but then he turned into even more of a "motherdick" than ever. I find every single aspect of him repulsive. If Sasha wants that she has not yet recovered from her mental disturbance. He's just an ignorant bully.

[Boofish]

 

 

 

Well, Michonne might do the same, so she never held that against him.  They "get" each other. lol  If he'd made her strip and bend over a table, he'd have been a shish-ke-bab, too.

And she just told him Glen and Maggie had been taken by a "Pretty boy. Real Jim Jones type. Calls himself (dramatic pause) THE GOVERNOR" So he stuck his finger in her bullet hole - in an apocalypse that's called foreplay. 

[ShadowSixx]

I really hope Abe doesn't think he can just run over to Sasha and Sasha is just going to fall into his arms. What if Sasha rejects him? What other woman out there does he hope to get that he can fully trust? Michonne, Maggie, Carol (maybe), Tara, Denise have someone. Sasha is the only female left mostly and it's not 100% that she wants Abe. Sasha may not want to kiss all that facial hair. Grass isn't always greener on the other side. Oh well hopefully Abe learns the saying "You don't know what you got til it's gone". Hopefully he's dead before that even happens.

 

I get where Morgan is coming from, do I agree with him, no. He possibly doesn't want to turn into a person that just kills humans who are trying to survive the ZA as well, no matter how wrong or right they choose to survive. I see why he doesn't want to turn into that person, he doesn't want to lose his humanity and losing Duane and seeing red after he lost his son, really shook him. I don't hate Morgan or want to see him die just yet but he's not a favorite character either. I think Morgan needs to realize that sometimes he will have to kill out of self defense because there will be people who won't hesitate to kill him.

[peach]

Anyway, here's what Michael Cudlitz said about the scene:

 

http://comicbook.com/2016/03/07/the-walking-dead-michael-cudlitz-talks-abraham-rositas-big-scene/

 

Big comics spoilers in the last paragraph of that article, so people know.  I agree with Cudlitz that this is how Abraham would handle it.  Because Abraham sucks.

[Pete Martell]

Shit, sorry - thanks for catching that.

[peach]

I get where Morgan is coming from, do I agree with him, no. He possibly doesn't want to turn into a person that just kills humans who are trying to survive the ZA as well, no matter how wrong or right they choose to survive. I see why he doesn't want to turn into that person, he doesn't want to lose his humanity and losing Duane and seeing red after he lost his son, really shook him. I don't hate Morgan or want to see him die just yet but he's not a favorite character either. I think Morgan needs to realize that sometimes he will have to kill out of self defense because there will be people who won't hesitate to kill him.

 

I think the problem with Morgan is that he wants to project his issue onto the whole group.  If he simply told Rick, "look, you saw me after Duane died.  If I start killing, I can't stop. I can't differentiate between friend and foe," then Rick would understand and let him be.  His raid was volunteer only, anyway. The problem is Morgan trying to stop other people (or secretly hide bad guys) because of his personal philosophy, which is less of an actual philosophy, and really just his own coping mechanism.

Shit, sorry - thanks for catching that.

No worries.  :)  I also don't think those spoilers will be coming to fruition.  lol

Edited March 8, 2016 by peach

[peach]

And she just told him Glen and Maggie had been taken by a "Pretty boy. Real Jim Jones type. Calls himself (dramatic pause) THE GOVERNOR" So he stuck his finger in her bullet hole - in an apocalypse that's called foreplay. 

 

LOLOL. I watched that episode recently ( I watched a lot of season 3 scenes for Richonne purposes), and I actually agree with that.  It was electric. 

 

I'm so overwhelmed by your presence I have to grab you somewhere...  Now have our doctor fix you up.

[kj4ever]

LOLOL. I watched that episode recently ( I watched a lot of season 3 scenes for Richonne purposes), and I actually agree with that.  It was electric. 

 

I'm so overwhelmed by your presence I have to grab you somewhere...  Now have our doctor fix you up.

I still don't understand why people didn't just love Michonne from the minute she was on the show.  Yeah, she was acting all bad ass and everything but the way she portrayed the character you just knew there was a reason why.  I'm still not thrilled that she's with the man that tried to trade her off, knowing what would happen to her (yeah, he changed his mind but he knew after he told Merle that Merle would just do it to keep his brother safe leaving him off the hook), but at least she went on the raid and wasn't left behind as babysitter.  That gives me some hope.