S06.E12: Not Tomorrow Yet

[Caelicola]

Well, one takes a break for a few months due to real life stuff, and when one catches up the plot has actually moved along a little?! Whaaaat? I'm not used to that!

I'm not sure whether the plan was actually decent or one more kooky clutterbuck in a long line of clutterbucks, but it sure seemed to work, up until the end...on the clutterbuck side, maybe doing a leeetle bit of recon first, so you know if the people you're slaughtering in their sleep are all of Negan's peeps or if there's more around (who are gonna be hella pissed, I'd imagine), wouldn't have been the worst idea ever.

 

Get that nice dude lovin', Carol! Good for you. On the other hand, I love Carol to bits, but Maggie is pregnant, not judgement-impaired...what annoyed me isn't that Carol questioned the appropriateness of Maggie being there (I agree she probably shouldn't have been), it's that she went to Rick about it. She's a grown ass woman, tell her she shouldn't have come, don't tell Rick he shouldn't have let her.

So, now we have happy Maggie and Glenn (to varying degrees), happy Rick and Michonne, happy Tara and Denise, getting there Carol...the end of the season is gonna be a massacre, isn't it. I'm genuinely scared.

And Glenn killing humans was probably unavoidable in the long run, but damn if it didn't move me anyway. Good job to Steven Yeun, one of the least sung heroes of this cast.

 

FPP is a bit less of a PP! I'm confused, puzzled and a bit aroused by it. And I really like Jesus! Weird, I rarely like characters right off the bat on this show.

 

Hilltop dude, you think that is badass? Wait until you see him bite out a man's throat with his teeth.

 

I really, really want Rosita and Sasha to both kick Abraham to the curb and either be awesome single ladies (what is up with pairing everyone up, lately?) or, if they have to hook up with someone, hook up with each other. Abraham is a dick. He's a vast ocean of dick, and now we know every single grain of said dick.

 

I don't entirely disagree with Morgan, in that "MURDER!" has become pretty much the first option and sometimes there might be alternatives, and I'm fine with him being a dissenting voice, as long as he doesn't jeopardize the health and survival of my favorites again. Saying your piece and explaining why you think peace is the way? Go ahead, you have every right to. Don't let enemies go, or knock out Carol again, or we're gonna have some stern words -I imagine he's quaking in his boots.

 

Side note because I missed the discussion for episode 10: I'm SO HERE for Rick and Michonne it's not even funny. Ridiculously awesome.

[GodsBeloved]

Unpopular opinion, I don't think Morgan's perspective is completely wrong. It just feels naive based on what we are given to work with in this world.  But I would think that if the shoe were on the other foot, they'd feel a bit differently.

What do you mean by this? Sorry if I'm slow :)

[diebartdie]

Interesting that the title of the episode was also Carol's line to Tobin, it was a great episode, really showed all the layers of meaning. Morgan stands up for peace, meekly asserting the common human value of compassion over the common human crime of murder. Rick was irked but graciously let him have his say, also allowing the other citizens an opportunity to also turn away from war, it looked to me that in that moment all the people gathered in that space were weighing it, groping toward taking the measure of murder, feeling the taste of it hearing for the first time the song of it from the outside instead of the wounded inside some jumbled mess of oh no such dread oh no do unto these strangers what was done to me and mine just days ago oh no oh....the emotions begin to cresendo into possibly a realm where Rick's plan of war might not gel when Aaron stands and lends his full support to Rick, instantly sealing the deal, the fix is in, the hunt is on.

 

I dont think Morgan is wrong and unlike Abe's horrible timing, Morgan spoke in turn and on point.

It was Carol's episode though. Carol the "mother bear" lol, they literally had her in the woods gathering acorns like a fricken grizzly bear. Making cookies out of beets because even starving to death, nobody wants to eat a damn pile of canned beets! Beets and acrorns, sounds utterly revolting to me but look at her go! She's all squeeky clean, smiling, talking to everyone all while wearing her gun and her knife right out front for the whole world to feel.....and feel she does. She feels it all and keeps the tally in her journal there by the bed....her dream diary merely initials, cryptic phrases, numbers, question marks and a final number circled, hemmed in as if to reassure herself "this is IT. No more, I am DONE." Good luck with that sister, Rick just rolled back into town and didnt you kind of hear in the back of your mind that old forgotten love song......

"You are the most divine, delicious warrior
A man can't help saluting your return
And if you start my heart it's just the way you slash and burn
Bewitching woman, straining at the armor plate
You singe me with the ardor you inflame
And in my carnal heart there's not a sorry shred of shame

All Warriors:
You and me love war
Doesn't matter what it's for
Pandemonium reigns and we're bludgeoning brains
Gives us War, War, War
Keep it down to a roar"

 

 

....but who brought a "pregnant knife to a gun fight" (thanks for that line, sorry not quoting you proper) for fuck's sake right when Carol's being all torqued out about being a mama grizzley and Rick's wanting everyone to rally behind him and go a slaughtering and Carol is thinking she kinda wants to just netflix and chill with Tobin but there she is damnit, riding the murder rv and fuckin Maggie no doubt was all the way to the murder forest showing everyone that stupid fucking ultrasound picture of the blob "oh it's my baybee!!! So safe and secure inside my squishy unarmored body! Look Carol, it's my baybee!" so of course Carol just spazzes out, I shall protect you Maggie and we will stand outside in the freekin forest and have a loud ass argument over whether or not you should be here like DAYS TOO LATE TO CHANGE IT because Im protecting yoU! " they get captured.

 

Ugh Carol, Maggie would have been fine if you had just stayed behind and got your freekon with Tobin.

[Snaporaz]

TPTB are projecting (Carol's) death in an alarming way. I will be truly pissed to see a strong, middle aged, female character removed from a major role in a TV series. There is so little representation of this demographic. I rea;;y. really hope this is just a red herring move. :(

I'm choosing to think positively here. So, I pity the fools who have her and Maggie because Carol is going to fuck their shit up. Right?

[nachomama]

Stuff is acting weird today, keeps saying it can't find the thread. I think a post got lost.

 

Bullets were coming in to the bunker where Glenn and Heath were hiding, they didn't knock over a table for protection but clearly bullets were coming through the door. And stuff should have been ricocheting around and the light bulb was perfectly still. 

 

I would think Carol's numbers would be higher, I'm guessing there were more termites milling around when she blew up fuel tanks, etc. I'm guessing these are just the ones that were up close and personal. 

[Pete Martell]

While I'm with you about the soul-shattering and it broke my heart, too, I disagree about the kill shots wall. I would have preferred to see it in another context.  I think showing it to somehow ameliorate what Glenn had just done or to make him feel better about it is wimpy storytelling.  What CDB did was horrifying.  Necessary, but horrifying.  And they shouldn't have tried to make it easier for Glenn.  Or to soothe the audience with "See!  It's okay! They really ARE horrible and Glenn is still pure of heart!"

 

I think they had the head shots with Glenn less because they wanted us to still know he was pure and more because he's one of the characters who would be most affected by such a horrific display. He is, to a lot of viewers, one of the major emotional cores of the show. It's also a more effective way of showing just how awful these people are than last week's monologue that a lot of viewers probably didn't even listen to because it was from someone they didn't know.

 

If they were trying to whitewash his actions I don't think they would have had the scene where he and Heath opened the door and saw the pile of bodies. I think they were trying to say that it had to be done, but it was still horrific. I was actually impressed, because usually the show just has slaughter and then has someone looking on horrified and giving a lecture. As result they often look naive or sanctimonious. This did a lot of damage to Tyreese as a character, and more recently Morgan. I wish it hadn't taken 6 seasons to finally learn how to trust viewers enough to get the message.

 

It does reinforce the split personality of the show, in that they want viewers to get these bad-ass, adrenaline-pumping action scenes, but they also want to remind us it's terrible and awful and so on, when a lot of viewers are just going, "Fuck yeah...shoot 'em again!" It's also the split personality in how they deal with Carol, as many fans only want to see her as Rambo. They handled both elements more adroitly than I'd expected. 

 

I also loved that we got more of the less "important" characters through these scenes - Rosita, Tara, Aaron, Gabriel. I'm invested in most of the main characters, but I watch in large part because of the more minor characters, especially when they actually get them right. I watch because of the larger ensemble and how everyone can interconnect and affect each other. I feel like because they aren't sacred or untouchable in fandom, they can be a bit more real. 

 

I did hate how Abraham treated Rosita, and that Sasha is still stuck in this hell. I "get" why he was so rude to her, because he thinks that makes it easier for them both, but I still wish she'd shot him in the ass. 

 

And I liked seeing Carol increasingly struggle with the emotional cost of her actions, in such an interesting way - the Suzy Homemaker persona, the smoking, the harmless kiss and flirtation with Tobin, who is a safe space for her mentally at the moment. Even the silly montage, with the sitcom moment of her looking at the gallumphing walker's blood on her shirt. This is the type of thing that Melissa McBride is perfect at playing, because she's such an internal, nuanced actress.

 

The other part of this episode I enjoyed was the original music. The raid scene but also the scene where Rick said they'd have to "kill" Gregory. It felt so '80s, so cocaine-haze The Hitchhiker/Tales from the Darkside-esque, and the show often doesn't manage this vibe, they're often a bit too stodgy and artificial. They really did tap into that weird madness and atmosphere this week and it was a very pleasant surprise.

 

I can't help finding the guy who plays the beefy Hilltop with the broken hand to be incredibly hot. I don't know who the actor is. He reminds me of the gay football player on BtVS.

[Enero]

I realized while watching this episode again, that I don't want any of these people to die, even @sshole Abe. I have my favorites of course, who'd I'd be devastated if they died, but for the most part I like CBD and the Alexandrians and want them all to come through this alive. I am well aware that this is a dream that shall not be fulfilled. :(

 

Couple of Nitpicks:

 

There's no way they found anything left of Sam to put in a grave. Not only was there a headstone, but there was a mound of dirt as if someone had been buried in a grave in front of his headstone.

 

I thought Rick said they were going to get everyone to vote and decide what would be done, but after Aaron stood up in support of Rick that was the end of the conversation and it was decided they would fight. 

 

 

 And then they didn't even fully clear the building, as evidenced by the guy escaping on the bike. 

 

 

 

Speaking of which, why did Darryl go apesh*t on the guy who was on the bike? Was that his (Darryl's) bike? And if so, where DID the guy get it from because it didn't look like Darryl rode it to the rendezvous point. Does Darryl store his bike inside or outside the walls of Alexandria? Either way, if that guy has his bike then Rick and Co have bigger problems than just Carol and Maggie being in the hands of the enemy. 

 

Forgot to add, I didn't see Aaron in the final shot.  The last we saw him, he'd burst open a door to what looked like a supply closet. I'm guessing he's okay since he was with Rosita also when we last saw him. It was just strange that we didn't get a quick shot of him like we did of everyone else. 

Edited March 7, 2016 by Enero

[sidekickgirl]

Father Pee Pants got potty trained... damn!    Abraham was cold as ice to Rosita, I hope karma comes back around and gives him a swift combat boot to the ass.  (Or a zombie bite to the neck). 

 

I held my breath for much of this epidode, and all but abandoned my "two screen experience" -- good on you show.  I was focused, which is rare in this time of iphone/ipads. 

[rogueprinzess]

I may be in the minority but this episode was kinda meh for me. It felt more like filler, but the intensity of the raid was well done as was the raw emotions over the brutality of what the group had to do.

 

How Abe handled his breakup with Rosita was deplorable, but not at all out of character for him. He's shown since his first appearance that he has little to no tact or overall concern for people's feelings so it doesn't surprise me that he was a n-th level douchebag. As I mentioned in the last episode's thread, Abe's wife and children ran headlong into the arms of walkers rather than stay with him, that says something about the kind of man he was before the world went sideways.

 

Again, the show had a visit of the RTLIC (Random Temporary Loss of Intelligence Coincidence) this episode. Glenn, who was all up on Maggie about staying in ASZ when they went to deal with the Million Walker March because of the bun in her oven, is suddenly fine with her going on a mission to specifcally murder psychopathic killers? Not even a cautionary word? Rick is the boss of, well, everyone. He could have straight up said that Maggie needed to stay behind, which would have been a good decision since as it stands, Carl is the most senior survivor left in ASZ and he's still learning to live as a cyclops. And then there's the decision to go in without doing proper recon first. Sure, random Hilltop kid gave them deets about the compound to an extent, but since Rick and his group had some time before they were discovered, they could have watched the compound themselves for a while to make sure they knew the numbers/routine, see if anyone else showed up to make/take deliveries or better yet, have kidnapped one of them and gotten info out of them from the inside. Them rushing in without even knowing which one of the mofos was actually Negan was silly, and Rick should have known better as a former cop.

 

My guess is that Jesus was CIA before the ZA. His skills and the fact that their so close to DC make me think that this is the case. But if that is so, then shame on him for not warning the group against this course of action. 

 

I'm actually fine about Carol's current dilemma. Everyone who's been on this show for more than a couple of seasons has had to struggle with their decisions and what they're becoming. And as Tobin said, Carol is a caretaker by nature so it does go against her natural disposition to kill, even it it's required. As long as she doesn't go monk on us, I'm fine with her working through this and getting a little sugar on the side if it helps take her mind off things for a while. 

 

Glenn looking at those photos on the wall......WHY SHOW? Why would you do that to me, my heart can't take it, it's too cruel. 

 

I think it's hilarious that Alanna Masterson (Tara) on TD said that she didn't think her pregnancy showed too much on the show when she filmed this episode (she said she was nine months at that point). Her face looks totally different in this episode, as does her upper body. Even if I hadn't known before, it was super clear, strategically placed plate or not. 

 

And finally a shout out to FPP, he may just turn out to be a favourite of mine after all. We can kill Abe and keep him instead, methinks.

Edited March 7, 2016 by rogueprinzess

[MrsRafaelBarba]

When Carol was passing out cookies to her ZA neighbors, the Mister Rogers theme played in my head.

[DearEvette]

What do you mean by this? Sorry if I'm slow :)

 

If some unidentified group decided to stroll up and start killing the Alexandrians, I am thinking Rick's reaction would be  to want to know 'why'.  Who are these people?  Why do they want to kill me?  He'd want the opportunity to negotiate them out of it.

[SevenStars]

I said last season that Rick had become the Governor, and I feel that even more now. I can see that he's doing what he feels needs to be done, but it makes me like him even less than last season. He is the Governor now.

To me, there is a big difference. The Governor was going after them, not because they threaten him or try to take anything away from him. He just wanted to show them who was in power. It was not about survival for him. For the Rick group, everything they have done is about survival. It's about them protecting themselves.

So no, Rick is not the Governor. His actions looked like it but his intention is what makes the big difference to me.

[rogueprinzess]

To me, there is a big difference. The Governor was going after them, not because they threaten him or try to take anything away from him. He just wanted to show them who was in power. It was not about survival for him. For the Rick group, everything they have done is about survival. It's about them protecting themselves.

So no, Rick is not the Governor. His actions looked like it but his intention is what makes the big difference to me.

 

I think there are definitely similarities between Rick and the Govenor (both have leadership qualities, charisma, etc.) but as you said, still vast differences. Rick isn't a socio or psychopath for instance. He doesn't derive pleasure from killing or do it to further his position. Could he stand to mellow out a bit more with the relative ease he's developed with violence and killing? Yes. But that isn't going to happen when so many attacks on his and the CDB's safety have occurred in such quick succession. It's true that Season 1 Rick would probably have locked this Rick up, but Rick's evolution has been necessary to keep his people alive so far.

[Pete Martell]

To me, there is a big difference. The Governor was going after them, not because they threaten him or try to take anything away from him. He just wanted to show them who was in power. It was not about survival for him. For the Rick group, everything they have done is about survival. It's about them protecting themselves.

So no, Rick is not the Governor. His actions looked like it but his intention is what makes the big difference to me.

 

The Governor was also just a sick freak. He didn't just kill or be killed, he didn't just go the next step of going out and killing, he kept walker heads, he had all that equipment set up to where he was likely going to rape and torture Michonne. 

 

Rick has become unstable and dangerous (and without his group I think he would probably be completely off the rails) but he isn't evil. The Governor of season 3 was evil, and the wishy-washy version of season 4 was starting to go down that path again by the time he died. 

 

In a way I think the decency and goodness we still see in Rick at times makes him even more dangerous, because it means people are still able to work with him and be brought in by him. He was systematically breaking his group down about killing humans, to the point where some of them, like Aaron, were repeating his words while they were in the act. It was chilling.

Again, the show had a visit of the RTLIC (Random Temporary Loss of Intelligence Coincidence) this episode. Glenn, who was all up on Maggie about staying in ASZ when they went to deal with the Million Walker March because of the bun in her oven, is suddenly fine with her going on a mission to specifcally murder psychopathic killers? Not even a cautionary word? Rick is the boss of, well, everyone. He could have straight up said that Maggie needed to stay behind, which would have been a good decision since as it stands, 

 

I think with the lives they now lead, with ASZ invaded multiple times, nowhere is truly safe. Beyond that I think that Rick knew it had to be Maggie's choice. I think as soon as Glenn heard her say she had to go because she was the one who was a big part of the deal being made, he didn't try to talk her out of it, because she'd given her word and that was important to her. 

 

I don't feel like her pregnancy was a big factor in the capture anyway, although Carol wigging out may have tipped the Saviors off.

[ghoulina]

I said last season that Rick had become the Governor, and I feel that even more now.  I can see that he's doing what he feels needs to be done, but it makes me like him even less than last season.  He is the Governor now.

 

I just still don't see this. The Governor went around tricking people, killing them, and taking their shit. He may have convinced his group that CDB were bad guys and they had to get them before they get us. But he knew that was BS. He knew it was all about pride and revenge. Rick leading his gang into Negan's compound to kill sleeping men may be crossing a line they've never crossed before. But it's not because they want their stuff or they don't want the competition of another group. It's because this group almost killed three of their members, and has been shown to be tormenting and abusing people all around the area. This is absolutely a situation where they know if they don't get these guys, it's not going to be good. 

 

So am I the only one who hates the idea of Tobin and Carol?  She finally gets a love interest, and he has all the stunning good looks and vibrant personality of boiled white rice.  And he's STILL a weenie, and admits it.  "I can't do what you do".  Twirp.  Aaron and Heath can man up to go protect their community, and Heath as NEVER killed a person before.  But Weenie Man can't be asked?  He's the type of person that if walkers were to come back, he'd toss Carol in front of himself so that they'd eat her and not him.  He's a weenie.

 

I don't think saying that you can't do what CAROL does is the equivalent of meaning you can't kill or fight. Tobin was one of the ones who stepped up that night when the Walkers invaded, right? I mean, he clearly still has a lot to learn, but I don't know that I'd call him a weenie. Because I don't think very many people, period, could do what Carol has done. Carol killed a child, with her back turned, in a field of flowers. I don't know that Daryl or Glenn or Abraham could have done that. Carol is quick thinking, adaptive, and brutal. She slayed most of the Wolves single-handedly. I think that impresses Tobin. And he doubts himself. Tobin simply hasn't been what she's been through, not many have. 

[SevenStars]

You know, even though I didn't agree with it, I could understand where Morgan was coming from at first. He had gone completely batshit after Duane. And Eastman came along and saved him, in more ways than one. He is really really afraid to go back to that dark place. I get it. And it was fine when he was on his own. But after living with this group for awhile, and seeing what happened to their people at the hands of the Wolves, HOW can he still think this "no killling" shit is going to work? He just really needs to snap out of it or die.

In this episode, he didn't say no killing. He just said that killing shouldn't be their first option because it leaves a mark on people's soul.

[ghoulina]

There's no way they found anything left of Sam to put in a grave. Not only was there a headstone, but there was a mound of dirt as if someone had been buried in a grave in front of his headstone.

 

Maybe when group members are chomped to pieces they bury a favorite item instead. His record player? A plate of cookies?

[Shopkeeper]

 

Speaking of which, why did Darryl go apesh*t on the guy who was on the bike? Was that his (Darryl's) bike? And if so, where DID the guy get it from because it didn't look like Darryl rode it to the rendezvous point. Does Darryl store his bike inside or outside the walls of Alexandria? Either way, if that guy has his bike then Rick and Co have bigger problems than just Carol and Maggie being in the hands of the enemy. 

 

 

It was Daryl's bike, which was stolen from him several episodes ago by those Random Wanderers in the woods. So those Wanderers are either Saviors themselves, or were overtaken by Saviors after they took off on Daryl's bike.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Shopkeeper

[ghoulina]

In this episode, he didn't say no killing. He just said that killing shouldn't be their first option because it leaves a mark on people's soul.

 

Right. And what he wanted them to do was go talk to Negan and his group. Let them know that they (CDB) were superior fighters, to which Morgan imagined Negan would concede, take his ball, and go home. For someone as experienced as he is, that was a very narrow view. And it would leave CDB much more vulnerable than they were last night. A talk would not have worked with Negan, and Rick knew this. They had to get the jump on them, it was the only way to spare as many lives as possible on their side.

[SimoneS]

I'm choosing to think positively here. So, I pity the fools who have her and Maggie because Carol is going to fuck their shit up. Right?

 

I don't even believe that those four losers could capture Carol and Maggie much less hold them for long.

[nachomama]

I also think after 2-3 years in the zombie apocalypse everybody would be a light sleeper, those Savior dudes would have woken up. 

 

And what is up with the lack of Aaron's boyfriend? He's like never around! I can't imagine he's requiring too much money to get paid to be sitting in the church during the voting. Or that he has another job on some show where his time is limited, in an episode where random Alexandrians get cookies and unidentified children appear, where the F is Aaron's bf? 

[AngelaHunter]

Quote

I said last season that Rick had become the Governor, and I feel that even more now.

 

Someone made this a while ago, and I found it... interesting. I know the motivations and methods may be different, but now the "Kill them all." could be added to this.

 

 

http://i.imgur.com/1l4iSnl.jpg

 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Carol's Peacetime Cookies Crumble On The Walking Dead
A pre-emptive attack plan leaves everyone feeling pretty bad.

[SimoneS]

Someone made this a while ago, and I found it... interesting. I know the motivations and methods may be different, but now the "Kill them all." could be added to this.

 

 

http://i.imgur.com/1l4iSnl.jpg

 

I call this taking events out of context to support an opinion that has no basis in fact. 

[SevenStars]

Right. And what he wanted them to do was go talk to Negan and his group. Let them know that they (CDB) were superior fighters, to which Morgan imagined Negan would concede, take his ball, and go home. For someone as experienced as he is, that was a very narrow view. And it would leave CDB much more vulnerable than they were last night. A talk would not have worked with Negan, and Rick knew this. They had to get the jump on them, it was the only way to spare as many lives as possible on their side.

Base on what Rick was telling them, it sounded like Negan and his groups were just bullies who were preying on the weak. That's why the Hilltop couldn't deal with them and needed Rick's help. With that information it is not stupid or naive of Morgan to believe that if Rick and his people show them they were not afraid of them, they would back off. That's what bullies do when they are face with someone bigger and badder than them. Morgan doesn't know that these people are not just bullies but evil. That's why he said that the talk should be about letting them know that Rick's group can take them. And while preparing to talk, also prepare to go to battle.

Because we know who the Saviors are and have been seeing the world through Rick's point of view, which is kill or be kill, Morgan statement seems stupid/naive. But base on the little info the characters have, Morgan's point was valid.

Edited March 7, 2016 by SevenStars

[peach]

In a hurry, so no time to quote, but I agree with whoever said Morgan should maybe move to Hilltop.

 

About the Negan threat, Rick was specifically told Negan murdered a 16yo boy to teach Hilltop who was boss.  There is no way on God's green earth that Rick is going to give him any chance to get near ASZ and choose Carl for the same lesson.  Negan got on the Gareth list in that moment.

 

As far as their lack of intel raiding the post, they actually improved their usual tactics, and left some people on the outside for a change.  Baby steps, people.

[TattleTeeny]

Carol partly naked and wet from a shower.  Episode win.  Everything else was just filler.  (kidding... sorta)   So, has she lost her edge?  Fell too far into the "Suzy Homemaker" image and can't remember how to be the ultimate badass?  Snap out of it, Carol; Maggie & CDB need you!

 

When she was browsing the closet, I wanted so much for her to grab her old clothes again! Come on, Carol--no more cardigans for you!

[Boofish]

I like FPP more than I like Eugene. Eugene comes across as someone who would have been in protective custody in a maximum security prison for sex crimes had it not been for the apocalypse. Lewd and lascivious behavior, false imprisonment, peeping Tom. I do not find him funny or endearing I think he is gross and last night he gave me the creeps

[TattleTeeny]

Carol partly naked and wet from a shower.  Episode win.  Everything else was just filler.  (kidding... sorta)   So, has she lost her edge?  Fell too far into the "Suzy Homemaker" image and can't remember how to be the ultimate badass?  Snap out of it, Carol; Maggie & CDB need you!

 

When she was browsing the closet, I wanted so much for her to grab her old clothes again! Come on, Carol--no more cardigans for you!

 

I think they should have started poisoning the food that the Saviors were collecting from the Hilltoppers! No fuss, no muss!

[Boofish]

In a hurry, so no time to quote, but I agree with whoever said Morgan should maybe move to Hilltop.

 

About the Negan threat, Rick was specifically told Negan murdered a 16yo boy to teach Hilltop who was boss.  There is no way on God's green earth that Rick is going to give him any chance to get near ASZ and choose Carl for the same lesson.  Negan got on the Gareth list in that moment.

 

As far as their lack of intel raiding the post, they actually improved their usual tactics, and left some people on the outside for a change.  Baby steps, people.

Agreed. I assume their lack of planning is because of the limited amount of time they have. They don't have the time or the resources for a full scale investigation. In this world everything happens too quickly. I can hear T-Dog in my head "we better get them before we get got"

[CrashTextDummie]

I don't remember when the show had me on the edge of my seat like this the last time. Maybe never. The way they set so many main characters up for death in just two short episodes and then ratcheted up the dread of impending doom in this one was simply masterful. I fear for Carol, Maggie, Glenn, Abe and even Tara, Sasha, Rosita.

 

Most importantly, the dark stuff tackled in this episode felt fresh. Lines were crossed. They handled it with the right amount of importance. Critically, while I thought Morgan's no-kill ethos was indefensible and completely unreasonable when the ASZ was actively being raided by marauding murderers, his voice was needed in this instance. They spent a lot of time building his character and this was the first time I felt it paid off. It remains to be seen whether they can come up with compelling reasons for why he's staying with a group that is clearly and fundamentally incompatible with his moral beliefs, but for just this once, I was happy he was part of the show. Also thought the scene of him weeping juxtaposed with all the death and mayhem was particularly poignant and well played.

 

Abe dumping Rosita is the best thing that could have happened to her in terms of her role on the show. The writers have never figured out how to use her other than being Abe's squeeze and this development gives her room to grow into something more. Already in that one scene, I felt more for her than I had in her entire run on the show up to now. She was a purely peripheral character before and now I can see her becoming someone I actually care about. That is if she's not immediately killed off of course.

 

Also thought FPP's first kill gave him a much needed moment of character growth. He kind of turned into a fighter alongside everyone else in Alexandria in the mid-season premier, but that development was rushed and didn't do him justice. Here he definitively shed his impotence and it was actually kind of a sad moment. I loved how this scene was shot: There's something inherently badass about a priest wielding a machine gun, and they enhanced the effect with their use of camera angles, but the subtext of his act of killing was deeply unsettling. Much was made in this episode of Glenn (and Heath's) first kill, and those two got to verbalize how they felt about it. Seth Gilliam didn't have that luxury and I thought he handled the internal struggle of FPP beautifully.

 

Indeed, this episode made uncharacteristically good use of almost the entire cast. Tara's scenes, both with Denise and in the confession truck, were very sweet. Aaron and Sasha didn't get highlighted, but got to contribute in meaningful ways. They were about as important to this episode as Michonne and Daryl, which I feel is an excellent way to elevate minor characters in the audience's esteem.

 

Maggie is kind of the exception here. There's a certain logic to her wanting to go along, but effectively the storyline relegated her to damsel in distress, and kind of predictably too. Carol I could take much easier. Her character arc has always been the most compelling and the reflections on motherhood in this episode resonated strongly with me. "You're supposed to be someone else" she said to Maggie. "Don't become me" is how I understood it. It's been a running theme with her that she wants to spare others the burden of making the harsh decisions. The ones that take a mother's instinct to carry through. And it makes sense that she wants to spare Maggie that ugly part of motherly love now that motherhood is imminent for her.

 

Finally, a shoutout to the moments of levity, particularly Rick's way of applying make-up. I laughed out loud and it was much appreciated.

[Caelicola]

Well, the safest, most effective way to take out the Saviours would have been for CDB to simply join them. Give or take a couple of weeks, the whole compound would have been ashes and scraps.

[kj4ever]

I also think after 2-3 years in the zombie apocalypse everybody would be a light sleeper, those Savior dudes would have woken up. 

 

And what is up with the lack of Aaron's boyfriend? He's like never around! I can't imagine he's requiring too much money to get paid to be sitting in the church during the voting. Or that he has another job on some show where his time is limited, in an episode where random Alexandrians get cookies and unidentified children appear, where the F is Aaron's bf? 

For sure.  I like Aaron's bf, wish they would show him more.  It's been what, 2 months since the Wolves and it was another month or so that they were there before that so his foot should be healed.  The timeline of this show makes my head hurt.

[Bryce Lynch]

I thought the scripture before the kill was a (misguided) homage to Pulp Fiction.

It reminded me of the sniper in Saving Private Ryan.

[GodsBeloved]

It reminded me of the sniper in Saving Private Ryan.

Me too.

[Ouisch]

My heart broke for poor Rosita, who has always appeared to be more in love with Abraham than vice versa. Remember the "dolphin-smooth" trip in the church bus? She was lovingly stroking his head and telling him he needed a haircut. It was bathroom mirror in the morning patter, like a very close couple totally at ease with one another. In her mind. Later in that episode Abraham, that ol' romantic son of a gun, tells Glenn that he's gonna go find Rosita, because he "needs a piece of ass". Poor Rosita wept and worried while Abraham was off on the mission with Daryl and Sasha, while Abraham spent his off-time on that trip hitting on Sasha. Then, less than 24 hours before he tells Rosita that she's not the last woman on Earth, he shtups her and tells her that she's "damned near perfect". What a guy.Put a fuzzy image of him on a Hallmark card.

 

And about Tobin/Carol...that night that of the big meeting (in "Conquer") when Deanna was deciding whether Rick should be allowed to stay in Alexandria or not, Tobin stated that "if keeping my family safe means getting rid of...." before he was interrupted. Does that mean that he has/had a wife and kids? Or was he referring to the Alexandrians in general? For some reason, even back when he offered to teach Carol how to shoot I'd thought to myself at the time "Isn't he married?" 

[kj4ever]

 

And about Tobin/Carol...that night that of the big meeting (in "Conquer") when Deanna was deciding whether Rick should be allowed to stay in Alexandria or not, Tobin stated that "if keeping my family safe means getting rid of...." before he was interrupted. Does that mean that he has/had a wife and kids? Or was he referring to the Alexandrians in general? For some reason, even back when he offered to teach Carol how to shoot I'd thought to myself at the time "Isn't he married?" 

 

Yes he did say keeping his family safe...I wonder if they died in the Wolf attack maybe?  Freakin' Carol.  The first time since basically the start of the Zombie outbreak that Daryl actually looks clean and she has a hook up with the vanilla dude.

[oakLeaf]

Maggie should not have gone on the raid not because she's pregnant - she should not have gone because she and Rick are the leaders and both leaders should not go out in battle (this isn't Star Trek where all of command goes on a mission).

[Bryce Lynch]

Maybe when group members are chomped to pieces they bury a favorite item instead. His record player? A plate of cookies?

I don't think walkers generally totally devour their victims. They often seem to rip their guts out and then move on. I think there would be something of Sam left to bury at least some bones.

Hopefully they buried that Tiptoe Through the Tulips record with him.

[Boofish]

Who is the "R" in Carol's book? It read

 

R 

K,D (Karen and David)

L (Lizzie)

[Caelicola]

Who is the "R" in Carol's book? It read

 

R 

K,D (Karen and David)

L (Lizzie)

The only thing I can think of is that she's taken part of the burden of Randall's death on herself, since she washed her hands of the decision back at Hershel's farm. Or she's preemptively counting Rick for when she'll make her coup. One or the other!

Oh, actually I looked it up and Lizzie and Mika's dad was called Ryan, so maybe she's counting that, even though it was clearly a mercy kill.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Caelicola

[rogueprinzess]

Maggie should not have gone on the raid not because she's pregnant - she should not have gone because she and Rick are the leaders and both leaders should not go out in battle (this isn't Star Trek where all of command goes on a mission).

 

I think it's a combination of both. As a fellow woman I'm not saying in the least that Maggie should be given special treatment because she's pregnant. She's proven time and again that she can hold her own. I guess my theory is that she chose to become a mother, and now every choice she makes going forward isn't just about her, it's about her and her unborn child. if she get's bitten, there's no guarantee the child won't be affected. She's already constantly at risk of being attacked by the walkers (which she can't control) so to me adding the unnecessary risk of being shot, beaten to death or captured just didn't make sense. Perhaps her maternal instincts just haven't kicked in yet. And yes, I think someone other than Carl needs to be back at the home base in case, oh, I don't know Negan's men actually managed to find Alexandria perhaps?

[Pete Martell]

Who is the "R" in Carol's book? It read

 

R 

K,D (Karen and David)

L (Lizzie)

 

I saw someone say it was Lizzie and Mika's father, Ryan.

[Anela]

I thought the scripture before the kill was a (misguided) homage to Pulp Fiction.

 

I thought the part where Glenn and Heath jumped up, and just started firing at the door, was as well. I hated that movie, and have never tried to watch it again. did that happen? 

Regarding Glenn and his first human killing- didn't he kill during an attack on the prison by the Governor? Glenn was out there shooting. Did he miss each time or does that not count? Either way, I was touched at how much the attack in the Saviors was effecting Glenn and Heath.

Wasn't he sick? Or are you talking about when Carol used that guy's body as a shield?

Edited March 7, 2016 by Anela

[Anela]

When she was browsing the closet, I wanted so much for her to grab her old clothes again! Come on, Carol--no more cardigans for you!

 

I think they should have started poisoning the food that the Saviors were collecting from the Hilltoppers! No fuss, no muss!

I thought Carol would suggest that! I wondered if she'd added something to the cookies, until she offered them to everyone else. 

 

I also wanted her to put on her old clothes.

[Ocean Chick]

Oh, as soon as I heard that Denise was going to tell Tara she loved her when Tara was back from the raid and she (Denise) was back from the supply run, I knew Tara was dead.  It reminded me of when Beth refused to say good-bye to Zack, and we all know how that ended up.  Denise will live the rest of her short life regretting never saying "I love you".  Bye, Tara - it was nice knowing you.

[ghoulina]

Because we know who the Saviors are and have been seeing the world through Rick's point of view, which is kill or be kill, Morgan statement seems stupid/naive. But base on the little info the characters have, Morgan's point was valid.

 

Daryl, Sasha, and Abe met this group on the road. It was clear they were working for Negan and it became quite clear that Negan takes what he wants from everyone he sees. This group was heavily armed and the main henchman was two seconds away from killing Abe and Sasha. Daryl took them out instead. So not only do they actually know that these group are more than just "bullies", but it's also quite possible that it's entered their minds that Negan would want revenge on them for killing a bunch of his dudes. 

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

While I'm with you about the soul-shattering and it broke my heart, too, I disagree about the kill shots wall. I would have preferred to see it in another context.  I think showing it to somehow ameliorate what Glenn had just done or to make him feel better about it is wimpy storytelling.  What CDB did was horrifying.  Necessary, but horrifying.  And they shouldn't have tried to make it easier for Glenn.  Or to soothe the audience with "See!  It's okay! They really ARE horrible and Glenn is still pure of heart!"

 

I agree with your message, but I think it was a deliberate move to try and keep Glenn 'pure of heart'.  Every other [living] CDB member (aside from Baby Judith, obviously) has taken [at least one] human life and didn't spend a very long time being upset over it.  There has be at least one core member with a small set of scruples.  Carol will re-discover herself right quick, I'm guessing.  Morgan isn't an official CBD member (yet), so his no-killing lifestyle choice isn't under consideration.

 

Hell, even Gabriel took a life with little hesitation - only taking a minute to quote scripture at the guy.

[Pete Martell]

My heart broke for poor Rosita, who has always appeared to be more in love with Abraham than vice versa. Remember the "dolphin-smooth" trip in the church bus? She was lovingly stroking his head and telling him he needed a haircut. It was bathroom mirror in the morning patter, like a very close couple totally at ease with one another. In her mind. Later in that episode Abraham, that ol' romantic son of a gun, tells Glenn that he's gonna go find Rosita, because he "needs a piece of ass". Poor Rosita wept and worried while Abraham was off on the mission with Daryl and Sasha, while Abraham spent his off-time on that trip hitting on Sasha. Then, less than 24 hours before he tells Rosita that she's not the last woman on Earth, he shtups her and tells her that she's "damned near perfect". What a guy.Put a fuzzy image of him on a Hallmark card.

 

I was watching a deleted scene from late season 5, when Abraham doesn't want to leave the house because he's still dealing with everything that happened at the construction site and so on, and Rosita encourages him and supports him. She's so sweet and you can see how much she treasured him. 

 

I get why he said what he did, but she's always loved him so much while he's given little back in return. I guess at least they didn't try to make her the bad guy or say she was wrong for being angry, but I just wish they could use this opportunity to develop her in her own right.

[Grace284]

Good lord, enough with the musical montages. What is this, Smallville? 

 

Rick choosing a fake Gregory head may be my favourite moment of the season. Andrew Lincoln can really carry off the most ridiculous stuff. Speaking of ridiculous, Abraham. Did he really exclaim "WHY ARE DINGLEBERRIES BROWN?!" while walking out on his girlfriend on his way to a murder siege? He's so cartoonish it's impossible to be moved by any storyline featuring him.