S03.E14: Final Decision, Pt. 2

[Leanne]

crazy chicken; thank you for posting the defaced painting thing with "ex wifey" on it. I had forgotten! Further proof Sam is unhinged. I was sure it was the next day too. I picture Sam going in there that night and having some weird angry primal scream session before quickly writing on that canvas and then leaving. She's the toothbrush in the toilet type too. I bet she would do something like that and be in her coffee room at work laughing and saying "and then.... I put his toothbrush in my butt crack!" while her coworkers silently and uncomfortably eat their lunches. Much like her little chair prank story and how it went over at the bbq.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Leanne

[Snarklepuss]

What you see as Neal hiding something, I see as Neal walking on eggshells so as not to set off Sam's emotionally volatile and mean side.

 

If Neil is an INFP, they are loathe to engage in conflict and would rather shut themselves off completely than take part in it.  That could be the case with Neil and one could understand that, but I think he took it to the extent of not being honest or open enough and giving Sam enough hope to start to think she could continue with him, then coming out suddenly with his true feelings.  Now I've said before that he didn't owe Sam anything but he could have gone outside his comfort zone to be a decent human being regardless of how she treated him in the beginning.  I said that about Ashley too.  She wasn't open with David and let him make a fool out of himself.  People like Ashley and Neil are in my opinion are only concerned with their own feelings.  It's not just Sam that was guilty of that in that relationship, IMO.

[Jack Sampson]

I think it was the next day as Sam referenced leaving the night before as she was upset and embarrassed that is why I think her being alright with things was all for show. With her commenting more than once that Neil should have waited just one more day to tell her says to me that it was getting dumped on TV hurt her more than the divorce

 

Sam obviously went back to the house after the decision because when Neil picked up the painting Sam gave him before the wedding was defaced, which I think was a bitch move and proves to me that Sam has not grown that much.

Beyond any doubt, she was just embarrassed, nothing more.

Anyone else think that "one more day" is Sam's way of dangling the possibility of sex? Luring Neil back in so she can be the one to dump him and "win".

[princelina]

If Neil is an INFP, they are loathe to engage in conflict and would rather shut themselves off completely than take part in it.  That could be the case with Neil and one could understand that, but I think he took it to the extent of not being honest or open enough and giving Sam enough hope to start to think she could continue with him, then coming out suddenly with his true feelings.  Now I've said before that he didn't owe Sam anything but he could have gone outside his comfort zone to be a decent human being regardless of how she treated him in the beginning.  I said that about Ashley too.  She wasn't open with David and let him make a fool out of himself.  People like Ashley and Neil are in my opinion are only concerned with their own feelings.  It's not just Sam that was guilty of that in that relationship, IMO.

I don't quite see Neil and Ashley as an equal comparison - she was a jerk from their first champagne toast, and refused to have anything to do with David for pretty much the entire "experiment".  Whereas Neil was having fun getting to know Sam, kindly overlooking her obnoxious wedding behavior, and then after the honeymoon, not being given closet space or key, etc. etc. just decided he was done with her at some point, but kept up the pretense for the sake of not poking the bear, and his contract with the show.  And he was done worrying about her feelings any more at that point too, although I don't think he would have been like that if she had shown any consideration for his.

[Snarklepuss]

Wow, just saw the preview, Ashley hired a bad stylist...or a blind one. The hair looks WAY overdone for a basic cable TV appearance and the makeup adds 20 years to her already prematurely aging face. And David looks like he got younger - that's got to piss her off.

At least it looks like she waxed her lip for once.

 

Hah, I noticed that too.  I was wondering if maybe Cortney did her makeup, or the same bad artist that did Jamie's and also made her look 10 years older.  Did you see Ashley in the previews for next week?  She looks even more freakishly overdone.  I thought she never looked worse than in this episode both because of the makeup and in the scene with David at the house where she isn't wearing any at all.  I can't believe now that I actually thought she was attractive when I first saw her - perhaps it's knowing what she's like as a person that has changed the way I see her.  That and seeing that freaking upper lip every week.  Yikes, that was a total turn off (and I'm a straight woman, imagine if I were a man!).  I'm a light skinned brunette myself and it's really easy to get rid of that so I don't get it with her. She has a rather large upper lip and it just looks awful.  I don't have such a large area under my nose but still would never walk around like that.  In a pinch just use a freaking razor already!  Ugh.

[zooey]

I liked Neil all right at the beginning of the season, but by the end, he seemed just as withdrawn as Ashley. I didn't see any of his vaunted quirkiness - and whatever they mistook for quirkiness in Sam was just brattiness.

 

Neil - was he actually grinning and trying to hide it, when Sam talked to him the day after decision day? Anyway, I get why he wants a divorce but I don't like the delivery. And even though she's a bully, I truly felt sorry for Sam during the grandmother scene. You could see how desperately lonely she feels (although she shouldn't - some people would give anything for a long friendship like that with Sammy). I'm not sure Neil's decision was based only on the first two weeks. I think even the 'nicer' Sam was probably not completely to his taste at that time.

 

My theory is that it was a case of "he's just not that into you". I just wish that Neil was more forthcoming about it. Again, I do not fault him for his choice to divorce but he never really expressed his thoughts or feelings to Sam or even to the viewers on camera. He was languid and placid at all times, repeatedly throwing the same measured lines, using words like "excited about their progress", "committed to this marriage", "receptive to changes and displays of affection", over and over, when in truth and in fact, he was anything but. That's what irked me the most. The only time we were clued in on his thoughts was when he placed that call to his mother. Well-mannered and well-spoken, he always said the right things even when his thoughts and emotions ran contrary to them. So this goes back to my issue on where do you draw the line between being/playing the good guy and being open and honest enough to participate in this social experiment?

 

 

I think it was the next day as Sam referenced leaving the night before as she was upset and embarrassed that is why I think her being alright with things was all for show. With her commenting more than once that Neil should have waited just one more day to tell her says to me that it was getting dumped on TV hurt her more than the divorce

 

I think it was more than being dumped on TV. I recall her mentioning it a few times that she would like to make a go of the relationship and see how they would do without the cameras rolling. She was taking into account the pressure and the stress of having the relationship unfold within the context of the 6 weeks, so I think that was what she meant by waiting or giving her just one more day. I also think she took it to heart that Neil was just so over her and the whole experiment that he couldn't even stand to spend one more day with her, hence the comment about "her being such a terrible person that he couldn't even wait another day." 

Edited March 3, 2016 by zooey

[Jack Sampson]

Hah, I noticed that too.  I was wondering if maybe Cortney did her makeup, or the same bad artist that did Jamie's and also made her look 10 years older.  Did you see Ashley in the previews for next week?  She looks even more freakishly overdone.  I thought she never looked worse than in this episode both because of the makeup and in the scene with David at the house where she isn't wearing any at all.  I can't believe now that I actually thought she was attractive when I first saw her - perhaps it's knowing what she's like as a person that has changed the way I see her.  That and seeing that freaking upper lip every week.

My first comment about her looks was that she was aging quickly for a 30 year old, I stand by that.

I don't get the makeup unless her skanky friends told her it looked classy (if you can imagine). Seriously, I've seen Hollywood hookers with more taste. And not the Julia Roberts, I'm playing a hooker for a movie kind, actual prostitutes working the bad part of Sunset past the Guitar Center - okay, that's WAY too specific but you get the point.

[BunnySlippers]

I think it was the next day as Sam referenced leaving the night before as she was upset and embarrassed that is why I think her being alright with things was all for show. With her commenting more than once that Neil should have waited just one more day to tell her says to me that it was getting dumped on TV hurt her more than the divorce

 

Sam obviously went back to the house after the decision because when Neil picked up the painting Sam gave him before the wedding was defaced, which I think was a bitch move and proves to me that Sam has not grown that much.

 

 

Okay, thanks, seems like I remembered it wrong, then. :)

[Madding crowd]

I don't think Sam was defacing anything by writing in pencil on the back: The End and adding Ex to wifey. She obviously had written the Our Story and signed it Wifey and since Neil wanted a divorce, what was she supposed to do with it. Sam has issues and didn't start things off right-I honestly see it as immaturity and anxiety more than anything else. Neil remains a complete mystery to me. People see his blank stare and unemotional state and say it means he is a wonderful, loving man who is affectionate, works hard at the marriage, has lots of friends and interests etc. But in reality we don't know any of that. We know too much about Sam, but nothing about Neil.

 

I think it's possible they may get back together once the cameras stop rolling-who knows. 

Edited March 3, 2016 by Madding crowd

[crazychicken]

I don't think Sam was defacing anything by writing in pencil on the back: The End and adding Ex to wifey. She obviously had written the Our Story and signed it Wifey and since Neil wanted a divorce, what was she supposed to do with it. Sam has issues and didn't start things off right-I honestly see it as immaturity and anxiety more than anything else. Neil remains a complete mystery to me. People see his blank stare and unemotional state and say it means he is a wonderful, loving man who is affectionate, works hard at the marriage, has lots of friends and interests etc. But in reality we don't know any of that. We know too much about Sam, but nothing about Neil.

 

I think it's possible they may get back together once the cameras stop rolling-who knows. 

It wasn't Sam's canvas to deface though she gave it to Neil as a wedding present, if he wanted to deface it that is his choice if Neil broke the set of Big Spoon Little Spoon that he gave Sam then I am sure she would have had something to say about it. Even after his decision to divorce he might have wanted to keep the canvas as a memory of their journey together now he gets to remember her childish reaction. By her actions I think Sam only confirmed to Neil that she had not changed that much and he made the right decision and that was before the passive aggressive conversation.

[hoosiermom]

I figured out why Ashley has the new overdone makeup and look. She has a new job working for an escort service! That will pay for her tuition and then some. I can't imagine another reason to look like that! What happened to miss "classy at all cost"?

[hatchetgirl]

I think Neil is great. Totally my type, tall, quirky, funny. But don't get him wrong, he is no pushover. She was demasculating him from the get go. Calling him a pussy, saying he wasn't manly. What a bitch move. I'm sorry but if I did that, I'd fully expect a divorce.

I've been with my hubby since 92. What I really love about him is not just how he supports me, but he doesn't take shit from me. I really respect him for that. I've dated men who are just pushovers who let me walk all over them. That's not someone I can respect. If I'm being a jerk my husband wI'll say, wow, you are being a jerk and he is usually pretty spot on. Do i like being called on that, heck no, but at the end of the day, I have a good man who cares enough about himself to stand up! [Which is funny as in 4'9". He's 6']

So I hope Neil stays away from that trainewreck!

[Snarklepuss]

It wasn't Sam's canvas to deface though she gave it to Neil as a wedding present, if he wanted to deface it that is his choice if Neil broke the set of Big Spoon Little Spoon that he gave Sam then I am sure she would have had something to say about it. Even after his decision to divorce he might have wanted to keep the canvas as a memory of their journey together now he gets to remember her childish reaction. By her actions I think Sam only confirmed to Neil that she had not changed that much and he made the right decision and that was before the passive aggressive conversation.

 

To be fair, I think Neil was also involved in vindictiveness given the cold way he kept his feelings a mystery until the very end and then unceremoniously dumped her.  Neither of them was above stuff like this - Certainly Sam is not above it but I think it shows that there is more flawed about Neil than he was willing to show on camera.  He can't possibly be that clueless and if he is that's something else negative about him.

 

Speaking of "Wifey", this is the same word we saw David use for Ashley in his cell phone contacts.  Coincidentally I just saw an episode of "Love at First Swipe" with Clinton Kelly and Devyn Simone where she tells a woman that the word "wifey" in current urban jargon means that you are aspiring to be a wife but not a real wife, or the next thing to a wife.  I wonder if the experts on this show have used that word and that's why the participants picked it up or maybe it's just something the young generation knows about and I don't!

[zooey]

I think Neil is great. Totally my type, tall, quirky, funny. But don't get him wrong, he is no pushover. She was demasculating him from the get go. Calling him a pussy, saying he wasn't manly. What a bitch move. I'm sorry but if I did that, I'd fully expect a divorce.

 

I know a lot of people can't stand the girl but let's try to keep things in perspective. Yes, Sam mocked/attacked Neil's masculinity (or lack thereof), but she never called him a pussy. Neil said as much in the Unfiltered interview ---   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVatV_APzLw

 

I think all the jabs about not being a manly-man and him carrying a murse triggered deep-seated childhood insecurities or adolescent issues that made him arrive at the word pussy. Of course, this is all speculation on my part... since he didn't really share anything about his life beyond his parents divorcing at an early age and his grandparents being in an arranged marriage, we'll never know. 

[sleekandchic]

I know a lot of people can't stand the girl but let's try to keep things in perspective. Yes, Sam mocked/attacked Neil's masculinity (or lack thereof), but she never called him a pussy. Neil said as much in the Unfiltered interview --- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVatV_APzLw

I think all the jabs about not being a manly-man and him carrying a murse triggered deep-seated childhood insecurities or adolescent issues that made him arrive at the word pussy. Of course, this is all speculation on my part... since he didn't really share anything about his life beyond his parents divorcing at an early age and his grandparents being in an arranged marriage, we'll never know.

I thought Sam called Neil a pussy during their tetherball game, which they played on their honeymoon. I thought she said it out loud, though it was bleeped. I could be wrong.

Eta: I just reread page 1 of the Honeymoons thread here. It's a good refresher. Sam's relentless attacks on Neil are a big topic of convo.

Edited March 3, 2016 by sleekandchic

[Vinyasa]

Sam obviously went back to the house after the decision because when Neil picked up the painting Sam gave him before the wedding was defaced, which I think was a bitch move and proves to me that Sam has not grown that much.

 

If you look closely the letter "e" in "The" and the letter "e" in "Wifey" are different shapes. It  might have been done by the production people for drama to a boring season.

 

It seems Neil's "decision" speech was somewhat scripted.

[imakeepit100]

Here's the thing I see about Neil-- he is the way he is. A lot of ppl think that he was intentionally closed during the experiment, but I just think that's his personality. He's slow to open up especially when he feels like he would get attacked. Sam proved over and over again (even recently when she touched his face after he told her he didn't like that) that she couldn't be trusted. He probably closed himself as a defense mechanism by instinct, not out of malicious intent. He realized that Sam wasn't the right girl for him (pretty please let him still think that) and he didn't see any need in telling her ahead of the scheduled time they were set to discuss it.

 

It's the classic extrovert/ introvert thing that each one of these couples experienced. Sam/ David/ Trey are all extroverted, exploring their feelings through conversation. Whereas Neil/ Vanessa/ Ashley (ugh) are introverted, not naturally inclined to talking about themselves and what they truly feel.

 

And it goes beyond the experiment-- this is exactly who they are.

 

The problem is that introverts don't (often) make for good tv. They live so much inside of their minds that you can't really gauge how they feel.

 

For most introverts it takes time (way longer than 6 weeks) to truly connect with another person in a deep and meaningful way. That doesn't mean that introverts aren't making progress, it just means that they take time to truly let that other person inside of their inner lives.

 

Unfortunately, in Neil's case, he didn't feel like it was not safe to even try, so he eventually withdrew. That's how I see it, anyway.

[tvwatcher104]

I thought Sam called Neil a pussy during their tetherball game, which they played on their honeymoon. I thought she said it out loud, though it was bleeped. I could be wrong.

Eta: I just reread page 1 of the Honeymoons thread here. It's a good refresher. Sam's relentless attacks on Neil are a big topic of convo.

i watched the after interview with Jamie Otis and he (Neil) mentioned that "pussy" was entirely his word.. she never once said it to him

[Madding crowd]

All it would take to erase Sam's word "ex" and "the end" is a standard pencil eraser,so I see nothing that has been defaced. I'm quite sure Neil would not keep a large wedding portrait if they are getting divorced.

[Trixie Belden]

My husband (who is a quite a bit like Neil) said that Sam is really mentally unstable.  He also thought that her hysteria was due more to being dumped on tv rather than being hurt by Neil's decision. He had dated a woman like Sam in the past and he's said from the beginning that she's got a real need to win at any cost.  When bullying Neil didn't work, she suddenly changed her tactics to being super flirty and saying she'd learned how horrible she was.  She really threw all her manipulations at Neil and the less he responded, the more desperate she became. Neil basically shut her game down early on and engaged with her as little as possible.  He's totally not about the drama and that's all she lives for.  

 

Someone needs to tell Ashley that you have a bold eye OR a bold lip.  Not both.  

[KateHearts]

Neil remains a complete mystery to me. People see his blank stare and unemotional state and say it means he is a wonderful, loving man who is affectionate, works hard at the marriage, has lots of friends and interests etc. But in reality we don't know any of that. We know too much about Sam, but nothing about Neil.

 

I think it's possible they may get back together once the cameras stop rolling-who knows. 

Neil made a comment to the "professionals," before revealing his decision, that he had gone "out of his comfort zone" with the hugging.  I said once before he seems to show some Asperger's tendencies, and that seems to reinforce it for me.  He was always stiff and uncomfortable looking with what most people consider normal interactions, especially physical ones, that typical people would have in a newer relationship- a casual touch or a hug (think of the hug on the fishing dock).

I figured out why Ashley has the new overdone makeup and look. She has a new job working for an escort service! That will pay for her tuition and then some. I can't imagine another reason to look like that! What happened to miss "classy at all cost"?

There is an epidemic on this show of girls with huge, fake eyelashes and heavy makeup.  Cortney, Jamie, and now Ashley.  It's downright ugly.

[lids]

In some kind of cruel joke against me, the FYI site has replaced the actual episode with the short segment of Jamie interviewing the participants. So now I can't see the full episode; I watched the shorter A&E version. No way I'm watching that Jaime mess - Jokes on you TPTB!!!!

A lot of the funny points have been pointed out. I also enjoyed that when Neil returned to the house after the divorce pronouncement, Sam had written on one of their paintings, "The End, signed your ex-wife."

[Vinyasa]

Ashley's eyebrows were drawn on with a Sharpie marker in that after show interview with Jamie.

 

Aren't Sharpie's permanent markers? (ha-ha)

[Liberty]

Ashley's eyebrows were drawn on with a Sharpie marker in that after show interview with Jamie.

 

Aren't Sharpie's permanent markers? (ha-ha)

 

Possibly she thinks changing the topic to her makeup will divert attention from undermining her marriage.

[Booger666]

i watched the after interview with Jamie Otis and he (Neil) mentioned that "pussy" was entirely his word.. she never once said it to him

It likely could have been said and edited out. I'd like to know the truth, but I doubt we ever will.

[lh25]

I'm not an Ashley apologist - in fact, she came off horrible in the previews - but I actually liked what she said in this episodes. Sometimes you meet people you don't click with, they just rub you the wrong way. And I think with David, it was like that for her.

 

I agree with this.  It was clear that Ashley never tried to like David, she just wasn't going to be into him.  Which is fine, you feel you how feel.  In-person chemistry matters, and that the experts can't predict.

 

But where she lost me is that she didn't own it.  I got SOOOOO tired of her stance that it might have worked out if only David hadn't contacted that other woman.  No, it wasn't.  I'm in the camp that Ashley was THRILLED when that happened, that it gave her an out.

[lids]

Possibly she thinks changing the topic to her makeup will divert attention from undermining her marriage.

I think she upped her makeup game because she read all those comments on social media that she was ugly and had a mustache.

[Paddywagon]

I think Neil is great. Totally my type, tall, quirky, funny. But don't get him wrong, he is no pushover. She was demasculating him from the get go. Calling him a pussy, saying he wasn't manly. What a bitch move. I'm sorry but if I did that, I'd fully expect a divorce.

Right? Me too! I totally get him. This show could've been so much better if Sam's issues didn't steamroll everyone else's personalities.

Sam is a pro at manipulating people to pity her. She barrels on with her agenda and others obediently submit to avoid her wrath or her tears or her storming out. Little do they realize this enabling and coddling is what got her in this mess in the first place. Someone needed to stand up to her cuz obviously mommy and daddy never did. So you go Neil! Good job.

[Snarklepuss]

It's the classic extrovert/ introvert thing that each one of these couples experienced. Sam/ David/ Trey are all extroverted, exploring their feelings through conversation. Whereas Neil/ Vanessa/ Ashley (ugh) are introverted, not naturally inclined to talking about themselves and what they truly feel.

 

And it goes beyond the experiment-- this is exactly who they are.

 

The problem is that introverts don't (often) make for good tv. They live so much inside of their minds that you can't really gauge how they feel.

 

For most introverts it takes time (way longer than 6 weeks) to truly connect with another person in a deep and meaningful way. That doesn't mean that introverts aren't making progress, it just means that they take time to truly let that other person inside of their inner lives.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Ashley and to some extent Neil can't be excused just by virtue of being introverts IMO.  I am about as introverted as one could get and so is my husband and after 6 weeks we had absolutely NO DOUBT as to where each other stood in terms of our relationship.  In fact, going over my history I have had no doubt with other introverts too.  Hiding where you stand in a relationship can't be excused by calling it introversion.  Ashley didn't give a flying fuck about David so didn't care to go out of her comfort zone for him.  She didn't have to air all her feelings but at least give the guy some definite 2x4 over the head about being dead set not into him.  Don't expect him to be a mind reader and then act like he's a jerk for not just knowing how you feel and continuing to pursue you.  Same for Neil although he probably had more good reason to hide himself than Ashley given how wacko Sam is.  In the end, though, when he should have softened the blow before decision day, he didn't because again, he didn't give a flying fuck about Sam's feelings after what she did to him.  Justified or not, that's what he did and why, IMO.

 

The point is that Introverts have to extrovert to get along in the world.  It's absolutely necessary and another aspect of their personalities.  Introversion may be their preference but they also need to extrovert or else live life alone in a solitary bubble.  If they have trouble with extroverting or refuse to do it at those times when it's most necessary, it's not their introversion but the fact that they aren't balanced well in terms of personality.  This can be due to any number of factors including emotional immaturity or psychological issues.  I am sorry if I am so adamant about this - I mean no disrespect but I have been a student of personality theory going back over 25 years and take this subject somewhat seriously.

[tvwatcher104]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Ashley and to some extent Neil can't be excused just by virtue of being introverts IMO.  I am about as introverted as one could get and so is my husband and after 6 weeks we had absolutely NO DOUBT as to where each other stood in terms of our relationship.  In fact, going over my history I have had no doubt with other introverts too.  Hiding where you stand in a relationship can't be excused by calling it introversion.  Ashley didn't give a flying fuck about David so didn't care to go out of her comfort zone for him.  She didn't have to air all her feelings but at least give the guy some definite 2x4 over the head about being dead set not into him.  Don't expect him to be a mind reader and then act like he's a jerk for not just knowing how you feel and continuing to pursue you.  Same for Neil although he probably had more good reason to hide himself than Ashley given how wacko Sam is.  In the end, though, when he should have softened the blow before decision day, he didn't because again, he didn't give a flying fuck about Sam's feelings after what she did to him.  Justified or not, that's what he did and why, IMO.

 

The point is that Introverts have to extrovert to get along in the world.  It's absolutely necessary and another aspect of their personalities.  Introversion may be their preference but they also need to extrovert or else live life alone in a solitary bubble.  If they have trouble with extroverting or refuse to do it at those times when it's most necessary, it's not their introversion but the fact that they aren't balanced well in terms of personality.  This can be due to any number of factors including emotional immaturity or psychological issues.  I am sorry if I am so adamant about this - I mean no disrespect but I have been a student of personality theory going back over 25 years and take this subject somewhat seriously.

vanessa is a great example of what you're trying to say, perhaps. b/c you can clearly see she is introverted/quiet/shy/demure and yet she can interact enough to get along in a relationship and with new people (like at the party they had). that's a healthier balance for someone, being able to remain their happily introverted self while still managing to get along with others socially and verbally.

Edited March 3, 2016 by tvwatcher104

[SneakyCentipede]

Oh man!  I'll lay my cards on the table:  I am completely team Neal.  I think he has tons of personality, and I find him both interesting and funny - well, as much as one can garner from a two month serial.  And I get that YMMV, so others are less than enthused by him.  But I am just really surprised by some people's read on his behavior, so much so that even though the show's basically over (thank goodness...), I wanted to put it out there.

 

But no, Neal is not Sheldon.  Not at all.  But people kept bringing up the comparison, so I revisited the show, and then enlisted the help of a bud - who's a big fan of the show - to see if he saw the resemblance.  He thought there were a few small traits that they shared (ie. lack of blinking), and they both work in more technical professions, but I don't know if there's much more.  Moreover, the biggest comparison point seems to be that both are oblivious, or unaware, to human emotions- both theirs and others.  And that?  That I think is completely untrue of Neal.

 

I'd even go as far as to say he is one of the savviest participants we have seen so far.  Who else, from any season, trumps him?

Neal wasn't hiding his emotions.  But in order to get him, you have to pay attention.  I could be half dead, and I could still gauge where David was, because he is that much of an extravert.  But not Neal.  You have to look at him, watch his expressions. Listen.  You have to get it in context, like the analysis of a great novel.  But it was there.  He wasn't Ashley.  He was emoting; he just did it with subtlety.  And there were times when he wasn't so subtle.  And, I would expect someone living with him every day (yeah, I know they really weren't though for chunks of time) would get even more than I am watching an edited hour a week.  To me, it gives strength to those saying Sam is a narcissist, because I'd think you have to willfully ignore him to not get him somewhat.  Even when he expresses similar language, you can tell, for instance, how he's feeling, like when his voice goes up when he's making a statement that sounds like a question.  His face is expressive. His words are expressive.  He's not choosing them carefully because he is lying, or because he is playing to the camera.  He's choosing his words carefully because that's who he is.  Introverts in general do that, and I think his particular subset does that especially.  None of us know really, but I'd give him the benefit of the doubt over others.

 

He is absolutely not passive aggressive.  In order to be that way, you have to be..well... aggressive.  And someone just said it above me, he's just more passive.  Just like Ryan was more aggressive.  We all get angry.  It's going to come out one way or another.  I think a better example of passive aggressiveness would be Vanessa, actually.  She retracts until she is really upset, but when she does speak her mind it's almost antagonistic.  I saw that right before she left for her place.  I actually saw that in Jessica too.  She was not a shy violet.  And I've found that a passive aggressive person w/ an aggressive person is the worst combination (which partially explains Ryan and Jessica's volatility).

 

But back to Neal. Sure he was at times moody, and sullen; he's human. But he's also bent over backwards to try to accommodate Sam as best he could.  Heck, he was accommodating his wife before he met her by shaving the beard, which to me doesn't signify a desire to get attention, since those beards are kind of a dime a dozen where I'm at (NE corridor). He even started being a bit more profane on camera...for what I thought were pretty small things.  But Sam cited that as an example of how he was fake, so he amended his behavior.

 

If people aren't joned on him because he's not alpha male, or the typical guy's guy, then, well, we all have our preferences.  But just because he's a quieter, introspective, easy going man, who eschews confrontation and tries to see things positively, does not make the man defective, or in need of any particular extra training or transformation.  What he needed was someone who could appreciate those qualities.

 

And for me that was the saddest part of the whole pairing. Even if I thought the best of Sam, it seemed she was completely clueless about learning who Neal was.  On their honeymoon, Neal figured out the experts wanted them to learn from their divergent personalities, but even after a few weeks she was still talking about how they were "good people".  She just didn't seem to have the depth he was looking for, and in order for them to work, he was always going to have to manage her, and sublimate some vital parts of who he is.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, he comes off as odd in social settings.  But on a one to one level, he's attuned to the other person- if s/he lets him. And he is not unaware of what is required in a social setting. To dip back, I don't think Neal has vulgar friends only.  Knowing who Sam was, it appears he chose his more gregarious peops. And at the weddings, all the grooms greeted the families.  But  it was probably more stressful for Neal- so noticeable it compelled Sam's mom to give a little pep talk to him.  I do not think Sheldon, as he is depicted on the show, would do that.

 

To reference pop psych a bit, Neal - apart from his job - seems to be almost a stereotypical INFP (MBTI).  They aren't as common in the populace, and can come off as quiet, weird, and/or odd.  But they are deeply passionate.  And the interesting thing abut that type?  They will keep plugging away at a relationship, trying to make things work long after everyone else has given up.  The thing with them, though?  When they are done, they are done. 

 

So while his comment - if it wasn't tweaked - surprised me, it didn't strike me as cruel.  It seemed more resolute; he gave it considerable thought, and there was no room for the experts or anyone else to sway him.  So I hope next week's preview is just a misleading teaser.

 

Oh well, off the team Neal soapbox. :)

 

And btw, I was always under the impression that you are not supposed to talk about what you will do on decision day, and if you do, only in the most hypothetical terms.  So I thought that both Sam, and Vanessa for that matter, were being unfair in trying to get an early decision; that it's just the mechanics of the show.

I could be wrong, but I'm almost certain he spells his name Neil. 

[BBDi]

When in doubt, I have to remind myself that I really don't know these people and we only see whatever the show decides to show us. He might have told her he was undecided for all we know. I doubt he overtly lied to her about his decision.

Sam's initial hostility was part of the problem, but putting that aside they were still a mismatch. She thrives on conflict, he doesn't.

And they seem to approach physical affection differently. Once she started warming up to him, she seemed ready to get more physical, maybe as a way to try out their chemistry or to try to get closer. But he seems like maybe he's the kind of person who doesn't use physical contact as a way of getting close - he has to feel the feelings first. (Like, I can picture Sam having hate sex or angry sex with someone, but never Neil.)

I think this was a total matching fail by the experts, first and foremost.

[okerry]

What you see as Neal hiding something, I see as Neal walking on eggshells so as not to set off Sam's emotionally volatile and mean side.

Yes. Absolutely. Neil's demeanor, after a few days and weeks with Sam, had nothing to do with him being introverted or what his Meyer-Briggs type is. It has everything to do with finding oneself in the grip of a narcissistic bully, and he was NOT free to just walk away from her unless he wanted to be sued by the show for breach of contract.

 

This is why the Experts are worse than useless. Instead of helping these people, they do all they can to pressure them to stay in bad situations because it's all about The Show, not about anyone's well-being and/or happy marriage.

 

Neil was keeping his head down and walking on eggshells and trying to keep Sam placated. What we saw him do should be required viewing for anyone who wants to understand what narcissistic behaviour does to the narcissist's targets. You end up walking on eggshells, being non-committal, withdrawing, shutting down, and, often, becoming very, very angry - whether you realize that or not.

 

That anger finally showed up in Neil's "I am committed - to divorce." It didn't come out of nowhere.

 

But then other people (including therapists) will insist that YOU are the problem and gee, your (narcissistic) parent/spouse/boss is being so nice, why are you so angry and withdrawn? YOU need help because YOU are the problem! It's said that narcissism is the only disorder for which everyone else is medicated and treated, not the one who's actually got the illness.

 

If you've never lived with a narcissist, you will not understand Neil's behaviour and will believe he was just deliberately withholding information to be an ass to Sam. No. He was trying to survive his weeks with her by defending himself in the only way you can when you can't get away from the narc: By laying low and shutting down as much as possible. I'm just grateful he was able to break free of her and leave when the show was over. Some would not be so strong and would not want to risk the narc's wrath and revenge by leaving. Very glad he did.

 

Just as an aside: In *The Wizard of Oz,* the Wicked Witch is the narcissist, like Sam; the Flying Monkeys and the Winkie Guards are the lackeys who serve her but don't know how to break free, like Sammie; and the angry, shouting, false face of the Wizard is her tormented victim, like Neil (who is really a mild-mannered normal man who just wants to go home.)

 

ETA: I'd actually be very concerned about Sammie. From her behavior every time we saw her - from crying at the wedding to her very low-key, head-down, silent, whatever-you-want Sam demeanor the rest of the time - I'd say she's been in Sam's grip for a long time. We need a "Free Sammie" movement!

Edited March 3, 2016 by okerry

[Jusagirlintheworld]

Oh man! I'll lay my cards on the table: I am completely team Neal. I think he has tons of personality, and I find him both interesting and funny - well, as much as one can garner from a two month serial.

I'd even go as far as to say he is one of the savviest participants we have seen so far. Who else, from any season, trumps him?

Neal wasn't hiding his emotions. But in order to get him, you have to pay attention. I could be half dead, and I could still gauge where David was, because he is that much of an extravert. But not Neal. You have to look at him, watch his expressions. Listen. You have to get it in context, like the analysis of a great novel. But it was there. He wasn't Ashley. He was emoting; he just did it with subtlety. And there were times when he wasn't so subtle. And, I would expect someone living with him every day (yeah, I know they really weren't though for chunks of time) would get even more than I am watching an edited hour a week. To me, it gives strength to those saying Sam is a narcissist, because I'd think you have to willfully ignore him to not get him somewhat. Even when he expresses similar language, you can tell, for instance, how he's feeling, like when his voice goes up when he's making a statement that sounds like a question. His face is expressive. His words are expressive. He's not choosing them carefully because he is lying, or because he is playing to the camera. He's choosing his words carefully because that's who he is. Introverts in general do that, and I think his particular subset does that especially. None of us know really, but I'd give him the benefit of the doubt over others.

First off, Sam acted terribly. No question. Putting that aside, I am intrigued by your analysis of Neil.

My hubby and I were stunned at his decision to divorce. We thought back over the episodes to look for clues.

Hubby pointed out that Neil really didn't talk about his feeling much at all. He just kept a running commentary on Sam's behavior and the activity of the day. Hubby concluded that Neil is uber-passive. He never set firm limits with Sam. That's what Hubby thinks Sam meant by her "put me in my place'" comment (known here as her Fifty Shades of Grey remark. Lol)

I think Neil ought to have been more open about his feelings. I was mistaken in thinking his gifts and excitement over the wedding photos were genuinely heartfelt. I speculated that Meil didn't voice his hesitations because he was frightened. I don't know why, though. Did he think Sam would become violent? That's a little far fetched IMO.

It is interesting that you say that Neil is just very subtle. That viewers can discern his thoughts if they are focused and astutely attentive to his tone and expressions.

I think you may be right. To that I say : How exhausting! He's going to need a very special girl to study him. That's a job in and of itself. IMHO, marriage is supposed to be fun and energizing, not a constant vigil becsuse one partner refuses to say what is on his mind. I guess it all comes down to personality.

(To put my comments in context- I'm a female version of David. Upbeat, persistent, but sometimes clueless. Hubby is like Doug. Chill, laid back, but still athletic and masculine.)

ETA: Also, can someone explain why Neil wants to hang out with Sam as friends? I understand parting on friendly terms, but why would he want to affirmatively create and spend time on a new friendship after the marriage was a bust? Is it a guilt thing for ending the marriage and hurting Sam? Is his ego flattered that Sam is clearly smitten with him? Is it a control issue because she wants to be with him and he is reminded that he said no? Why doesn't he just move forward?

Edited March 3, 2016 by Jusagirlintheworld

[KateHearts]

Am I the only one who really can't stand the term "hubby"?

[Jusagirlintheworld]

Am I the only one who really can't stand the term "hubby"?

Lol. Not thrilled with it, but it's easier to type on an iPad. i hate the word "hubs." Lol

[ChristmasJones]

I wonder what Neil would have been like if the girl he met at the altar was happy to meet him, thought he was cute/handsome, and/or felt like he might be someone she wanted to get to know better. Or even someone she would want to kiss.

 

I just can't imagine being expected to be into someone who acted the way Sam did from the very first minute of their "relationship." 

 

Same thing with David. What if the girl who met him at the alter also thought he was attractive, and wanted to kiss him. I don't think he would be getting the comments he is now. He wants to have a family. That is a primary goal for him. The producers told him they had found his perfect match. And then he is on a contract where he has to go along with the charade. So he did. He went along with the charade. I do not think for a minute that David would have sat around pining after Ashley had he not been locked into this show. If he had met her off match.com and she acted like she did , I doubt they would have a second date.

[tvwatcher104]

First off, Sam acted terribly. No question. Putting that aside, I am intrigued by your analysis of Neil.

My hubby and I were stunned at his decision to divorce. We thought back over the episodes to look for clues.

Hubby pointed out that Neil really didn't talk about his feeling much at all. He just kept a running commentary on Sam's behavior and the activity of the day. Hubby concluded that Neil is uber-passive. He never set firm limits with Sam. That's what Hubby thinks Sam meant by her "put me in my place'" comment (known here as her Fifty Shades of Grey remark. Lol)

I think Neil ought to have been more open about his feelings. I was mistaken in thinking his gifts and excitement over the wedding photos were genuinely heartfelt. I speculated that Meil didn't voice his hesitations because he was frightened. I don't know why, though. Did he think Sam would become violent? That's a little far fetched IMO.

It is interesting that you say that Neil is just very subtle. That viewers can discern his thoughts if they are focused and astutely attentive to his tone and expressions.

I think you may be right. To that I say : How exhausting! He's going to need a very special girl to study him. That's a job in and of itself. IMHO, marriage is supposed to be fun and energizing, not a constant vigil becsuse one partner refuses to say what is on his mind. I guess it all comes down to personality.

(To put my comments in context- I'm a female version of David. Upbeat, persistent, but sometimes clueless. Hubby is like Doug. Chill, laid back, but still athletic and masculine.)

ETA: Also, can someone explain why Neil wants to hang out with Sam as friends? I understand parting on friendly terms, but why would he want to affirmatively create and spend time on a new friendship after the marriage was a bust? Is it a guilt thing for ending the marriage and hurting Sam? Is his ego flattered that Sam is clearly smitten with him? Is it a control issue because she wants to be with him and he is reminded that he said no? Why doesn't he just move forward?

if you rememeber back, Neil was also 'friends' with his ex, who was at the wedding and he still had a close relationship with. i think all of the people on these reality shows are damaged in some way - i don't think we can actually know their issues from edited shows, but he is obviously the type of guy who accumulates women/ex's as friends.. could be some intimacy issues there and an unwillingness on his part of actually open up beyond friendship. he kept saying he wanted a friend/equal partnership, so he's obviously comfortable with a 'friends first' and was probably blown away by Sam trying to kiss him before that foundation was truly there. i personally think he was just missing the friendship component from her and in the 9 months since they could have worked on that to the point he could now be with her imo

[Jusagirlintheworld]

I wonder what Neil would have been like if the girl he met at the altar was happy to meet him, thought he was cute/handsome, and/or felt like he might be someone she wanted to get to know better. Or even someone she would want to kiss.

 

I just can't imagine being expected to be into someone who acted the way Sam did from the very first minute of their "relationship." 

 

Same thing with David. What if the girl who met him at the alter also thought he was attractive, and wanted to kiss him. I don't think he would be getting the comments he is now. He wants to have a family. That is a primary goal for him. The producers told him they had found his perfect match. And then he is on a contract where he has to go along with the charade. So he did. He went along with the charade. I do not think for a minute that David would have sat around pining after Ashley had he not been locked into this show. If he had met her off match.com and she acted like she did , I doubt they would have a second date.

I get David. I guess I relate to him. David is the kind of guy who is in it to win it. He was going to make every effort to make the marriage succeed, even if he was married to someone like Ashley.

I think he had too much confidence in the experts. He was like a kid on a treasure hunt. He kept thinking that there was something redeeming in Ashley. Why else would the experts have chosen her for him? Every time she treated him badly, he would reassure himself that she possessed that elusive special quality and that he just hadn't discovered it yet. He convinced himself that he would find it if he could just [fill in the blank] (eg, be more attentive, have more time, make her happy, be a better husband, make her feel comfortable).

[okerry]

First off, Sam acted terribly. No question. Putting that aside, I am intrigued by your analysis of Neil.

My hubby and I were stunned at his decision to divorce. We thought back over the episodes to look for clues.

Hubby pointed out that Neil really didn't talk about his feeling much at all. He just kept a running commentary on Sam's behavior and the activity of the day. Hubby concluded that Neil is uber-passive. He never set firm limits with Sam. That's what Hubby thinks Sam meant by her "put me in my place'" comment (known here as her Fifty Shades of Grey remark. Lol)

I think Neil ought to have been more open about his feelings. I was mistaken in thinking his gifts and excitement over the wedding photos were genuinely heartfelt. I speculated that Meil didn't voice his hesitations because he was frightened. I don't know why, though. Did he think Sam would become violent? That's a little far fetched IMO.

 

ETA: Also, can someone explain why Neil wants to hang out with Sam as friends? I understand parting on friendly terms, but why would he want to affirmatively create and spend time on a new friendship after the marriage was a bust? Is it a guilt thing for ending the marriage and hurting Sam? Is his ego flattered that Sam is clearly smitten with him? Is it a control issue because she wants to be with him and he is reminded that he said no? Why doesn't he just move forward?

Neil seemed closed off because he WAS closed off. I really doubt he's like that in normal life - at least, not to that extent. He was mostly shut down and just doing what was easiest to keep Sam placated until he could get the heck out of there. If it wasn't for the show and the contractual obligation, I'm sure he would have given up on her long before.

 

He may have stayed "friends" with Sam because, again, it was the easiest way to placate Sam. It's not a normal relationship; they're still on national TV and getting a lot of attention. I sure as heck hope that Neil didn't fall for her pressuring him and apologizing to him and got back together with her. I really, really hope not.

[Nffftshewasgone]

Somebody please tell me what YMMV means!

You move me Vanessa?

You make me vomit?

Yon mountain man vamoosed?

Yowza moo moo vroom!?

[tvwatcher104]

Somebody please tell me what YMMV means!

You move me Vanessa?

You make me vomit?

Yon mountain man vamoosed?

Yowza moo moo vroom!?

your mileage may vary (aka your experience may be different from mine)

Edited March 3, 2016 by tvwatcher104

[BunnySlippers]

if you rememeber back, Neil was also 'friends' with his ex, who was at the wedding and he still had a close relationship with. i think all of the people on these reality shows are damaged in some way - i don't think we can actually know their issues from edited shows, but he is obviously the type of guy who accumulates women/ex's as friends.. could be some intimacy issues there and an unwillingness on his part of actually open up beyond friendship. he kept saying he wanted a friend/equal partnership, so he's obviously comfortable with a 'friends first' and was probably blown away by Sam trying to kiss him before that foundation was truly there. i personally think he was just missing the friendship component from her and in the 9 months since they could have worked on that to the point he could now be with her imo

And after the wedding episode there were several posts here remarking how weird it was of him to have his ex-girlfriend there, and especially that he introduced her to Sam by telling his new bride that if she wanted to find out about him, he should ask his ex, because she really knows him. To me, that's one example of how clueless he can be about how his words/actions can affect other people.

 

Neil seemed closed off because he WAS closed off. I really doubt he's like that in normal life - at least, not to that extent. He was mostly shut down and just doing what was easiest to keep Sam placated until he could get the heck out of there. If it wasn't for the show and the contractual obligation, I'm sure he would have given up on her long before.

 

He may have stayed "friends" with Sam because, again, it was the easiest way to placate Sam. It's not a normal relationship; they're still on national TV and getting a lot of attention. I sure as heck hope that Neil didn't fall for her pressuring him and apologizing to him and got back together with her. I really, really hope not.

 

At that party in the park, Neil's friend said that Neil was always like that. At least, that's how I remember it.

[Nffftshewasgone]

your mileage may vary (aka your experience may be different from mine)

Thank you!

I would NEVER have figured that out.

[Empress1]

Am I the only one who really can't stand the term "hubby"?

Nope. I find it twee. Ditto "wifey."

[Jusagirlintheworld]

Neil seemed closed off because he WAS closed off. I really doubt he's like that in normal life - at least, not to that extent. He was mostly shut down and just doing what was easiest to keep Sam placated until he could get the heck out of there. If it wasn't for the show and the contractual obligation, I'm sure he would have given up on her long before.

 

He may have stayed "friends" with Sam because, again, it was the easiest way to placate Sam. It's not a normal relationship; they're still on national TV and getting a lot of attention. I sure as heck hope that Neil didn't fall for her pressuring him and apologizing to him and got back together with her. I really, really hope not.

Actually, he didn't seem that closed off to me. He bought her gifts, he got excited about the wedding photos, he carried her piggy back. I would agree that he was closed off if he had pulled an Ashley or even was less enthusiastic, but he wasn't. And he didn't just say he wanted to be friends. He said that after she felt better, he wanted to get together and do something as friends. He is the one who invited her to get together. Weird.

if you rememeber back, Neil was also 'friends' with his ex, who was at the wedding and he still had a close relationship with. i think all of the people on these reality shows are damaged in some way - i don't think we can actually know their issues from edited shows, but he is obviously the type of guy who accumulates women/ex's as friends.. could be some intimacy issues there and an unwillingness on his part of actually open up beyond friendship. he kept saying he wanted a friend/equal partnership, so he's obviously comfortable with a 'friends first' and was probably blown away by Sam trying to kiss him before that foundation was truly there. i personally think he was just missing the friendship component from her and in the 9 months since they could have worked on that to the point he could now be with her imo

Yeah, a similar thought crossed my mind. Didn't he cite his lackluster physical response at Sam's kiss as a motivator for his divorce decision or am I forgetting what he said? Is he f om a very traditional family?

[tvwatcher104]

Thank you!

I would NEVER have figured that out.

sure... people usually use it on coupon/sales forums... lol

[Neurochick]

if you rememeber back, Neil was also 'friends' with his ex, who was at the wedding and he still had a close relationship with. i think all of the people on these reality shows are damaged in some way - i don't think we can actually know their issues from edited shows, but he is obviously the type of guy who accumulates women/ex's as friends.. could be some intimacy issues there and an unwillingness on his part of actually open up beyond friendship. he kept saying he wanted a friend/equal partnership, so he's obviously comfortable with a 'friends first' and was probably blown away by Sam trying to kiss him before that foundation was truly there. i personally think he was just missing the friendship component from her and in the 9 months since they could have worked on that to the point he could now be with her imo

 

I don't get this notion that some people are "damaged."  I think that just existing in the world today can make a person damaged.  

[BunnySlippers]

Actually, he didn't seem that closed off to me. He bought her gifts, he got excited about the wedding photos, he carried her piggy back. I would agree that he was closed off if he had pulled an Ashley or even was less enthusiastic, but he wasn't. And he didn't just say he wanted to be friends. He said that after she felt better, he wanted to get together and do something as friends. He is the one who invited her to get together. Weird.

Exactly. He was the one who invited her out to do friends-stuff together. I don't think it was because he was oh, so afraid of her. He could have just said his good-byes and that would have been it. So, why did he want to get together with her? If he thought she was so awful (which, of course, she was, especially in the beginning), then why did he want to continue some kind of relationship with her? Is it because he felt guilty, or, like someone has suggested, he collects ex-girlfriends/friends, or is it because he actually had fun with her? I'm really curious to find out what happened in those 6 months after his decision.

 

And yes, what was so misleading was that he bought her gifts, he seemed to have fun with her, etc. So in that sense he wasn't closed off. But I think that when it came to showing his emotions and talking about what he really felt about their relationship (before Decision Day) he was closed off.

[kira28]

As an introvert I feel the need to defend Neil (if he is one) Being around someone like Sam who is always "on" making stupid faces, weird noises, being loud and "quirky" who is always sort of poking fun at you or insulting you under the guise of joking, someone that demands you constantly respond to them and if you do not respond the way they want you to, they start drama. Someone attention-seeking, self centered and always in-yourface.. for an introvert being around someone like that is exhausting. Being around people in general that you are not totally comfortable with is draining. While I am a friendly person and most people would describe me as "nice", after working all day interacting with people I am physically and emotionally drained and instead of wanting to go out and have a drink or go party with my coworkers or go out to eat in a noisy restaurant I just want to go home to peace and quiet and either run on my treadmill or curl up with a good book, watch a tv show ALONE.  When I was married or when I date someone, I enjoy their company. Several of my exes were extroverts and as long as I get my quiet time, get to be alone and recharge I am fine.

 

I think Neil was shell shocked, he was exhausted, he was like someone trapped in a room with a dog that might attack you. You try to placate the dog, don't make any sudden moves and just keep to yourself. You would be very cautious. I think after the verbal beat downs he took from Sam Neil was just trying to be on his best behavior so he could get thru the experiment. He did so many NICE thoughtful things for Sam. Planned a birthday dinner for her at a place she'd always wanted to go to, bought her little trinkets but they were very thoughtfully chosen. Sam wanted to show off her life, her interests so Neil obliged her. I feel like he honestly made an effort and once those efforts weren't appreciated or reciprocated and the "abuse" IMO was piled on he just gave up and went into survival mode.