S02.E03: Amarillo

[Primetimer]

Jimmy is doing a lot of things he shouldn't. Is it automatically problematic for a feminist viewer if one of the people pointing this out to him is a woman he wants to continue dating?

Read the story

[peeayebee]

I never saw Breaking Bad & had to catch a clue(s) via Wikipedia. I also didn't see all of

last season.

If you have the time, watch the ep "Five-O" from season 1 of Better Call Saul. It explains a lot of Mike's background and what happened with his son. Plus, it was Jonathan Banks' Emmy submission, for which he was ROBBED.

 

I haven't read any reviews yet or watched the Inside the Ep video, but I didn't get the feeling that Stacy was scamming Mike. I think she sincerely thought she heard gunshots. The nick on the edge of the garage could have been caused by anything, but she's primed to see it as the result of a bullet. Mike says he believes her, but I think he really means that he believes she believes it. I think she wants him to do something about the people supposedly firing guns, but she didn't expect him to suggest moving. She's fine with that, however. I can certainly see her having a breakdown.

 

Loved seeing the pig toy again.

 

I also loved seeing Jimmy talking to the seniors on the bus. That was a thing of beauty. And although Chuck is a terrible person, he has a point about the legality of how Jimmy got so many Sandpiper clients to sign up with the firm. I'm not convinced that the Sandpiper lawyers would have picked up on it, but still, he knows Jimmy well enough to suspect some questionable activity on his part.

 

It's interesting seeing what motivates Jimmy to do different things. He wants Kim to think well of him. He also wants to do an impressive job in the company so it will reflect back on her. He wants to impress Chuck. It's a fool's errand.

 

"I'm ready for my closeup, Mr. McGill" was perfect. I also liked that the video guys, maybe by Jimmy's direction, used the stair chair lift as a dolly.

Edited March 1, 2016 by peeayebee

[Ronin Jackson]

I don't think Nacho would need to set up a super secret meeting with Mike because he needs his help take out... Playuh. Is that an actual theory?

Edited March 1, 2016 by Ronin Jackson

[ghoulina]

You're not cold-hearted. I'm taking the makers if the show at their word that her concerns were genuine...but there was something about the way she handled it that just seemed "off." Especially with her being adamant about not wanting Mike to stay there overnight.

If you genuinely believe that someone is firing bullets at your house, wouldn't you want the toughest man in the world there to protect you?

 

Exactly. Her demeanor just bugs. She was doing that whole, "Something's wrong, ask me what's wrong, but then I'm going to hem and haw about telling you" thing. I just don't entirely trust her.

[shapeshifter]

Mike's daughter-in-law should absolutely be getting benefits through her late husband. And didn't they establish that she has a job?

You're not cold-hearted. I'm taking the makers if the show at their word that her concerns were genuine...but there was something about the way she handled it that just seemed "off." Especially with her being adamant about not wanting Mike to stay there overnight.

If you genuinely believe that someone is firing bullets at your house, wouldn't you want the toughest man in the world there to protect you?

Maybe she's afraid that if Mike stayed and her fears were proved baseless, it would mean she is delusional, and that's her real fear (that she's going crazy). Or it could be she wants a reason to leave the place where she lived (presumably) with her late husband. Or....

But I seem to recall this being already resolved by the time of BrBa. No?

[riverheightsnancy]

I don't think Nacho would need to set up a super secret meeting with Mike because he needs his help take out... Playuh. Is that an actual theory?

Maybe "Playuh" has been reaching out to other drug dealers like Tuco to sell his wares and Nacho is getting worried about blowback? This wouldn't surprise me because he is so stupid and has no understanding of consequences.  Does anyone wonder if Jimmy really wants to be a lawyer? I feel like he picked it because he wanted Chuck's approval and acceptance. In Jimmy's mind, Chuck would approve of the occupation and it would prove to Chuck that Jimmy has "really" changed. It serves 2 purposes for him, but it may not actually feed his soul. I also think that he knows that he will never be good enough for Kim. 

 

I think now that Jimmy is involved in the law, he actually finds it a bit dull and has a need to interject behaviors that he gets excited about. I would think that he would have been a great TV infomercial guy or a TV commercial director. Used Car salesman or salesman of any persuasion. In those alternate occupations, he wouldn't be held to such a legal or ethical standard that pushes against his natural inclination to bend the rules as far as possible and for showmanship. Those behaviors in other occupations would be valued.  Now, we all know (I have seen the movie The Firm a million times), that there are law firms that will use this approach as long as one doesn't break the law, they are fine with it. A different law firm, away from Chuck, might be his saving grace. But, I realize from the comments on here, that things go badly for Jimmy in some way. 

[ghoulina]

Maybe she's afraid that if Mike stayed and her fears were proved baseless, it would mean she is delusional, and that's her real fear (that she's going crazy). Or it could be she wants a reason to leave the place where she lived (presumably) with her late husband. Or....

 

She never lived in that home with Matty. He died when they were still living back in Philly. 

[Bryce Lynch]

I don't think Nacho would need to set up a super secret meeting with Mike because he needs his help take out... Playuh. Is that an actual theory?

I totally agree. Nacho knows where Playuh lives and how stupid and weak he is. He could certainly arrange a trip to Belize for him by himself.

I am guessing it is either Tuco, Fring or some other drug dealer we have never heard of who he needs Mike to kill.

[ghoulina]

Maybe "Playuh" has been reaching out to other drug dealers like Tuco to sell his wares and Nacho is getting worried about blowback? This wouldn't surprise me because he is so stupid and has no understanding of consequences.

 

I thought the meeting was about Playuh, and I can see this scenario being exactly why Nacho wants him taken out. It's quite possible has asked for Mike because he knows Mike knows Playuh, has been inconvenienced by him as well, and it would be easy for him to arrange a meetup. 

 

Does anyone wonder if Jimmy really wants to be a lawyer? I feel like he picked it because he wanted Chuck's approval and acceptance.

 

I think he really does. Yes, I believe he got into it to please and impress Chuck. But I think over time he really grew to love it. I think he loves it for different reasons than other people, sure. But I do think Jimmy enjoys practicing law. I think he likes interacting with people; I never thought he was putting it on with his elderly clients. And I believe he enjoys finding clever ways out of tough situations. And his flair for the dramatic isn't lost in the world of law. 

[Ronin Jackson]

Maybe "Playuh" has been reaching out to other drug dealers like Tuco to sell his wares and Nacho is getting worried about blowback? 

 

It's plausible enough that Nacho may have some reason to have trouble with "Playuh"... but he'd have no difficulty taking care of him himself or finding one of his low level thugs that accompany him to the meets to handle it. He's not setting up a secret midnight meeting and offering next level pay to Mike to handle "Playuh". Nacho realizes Mike is highly competent because of the way he tracked him down and got all the info about his connections with Tuco to use as leverage. The guy has got to be someone much bigger than "Playuh". It'd be a disappointing conclusion to that cliff hanger if "the guy" was the show's comic relief.

[benteen]

Hamlin is pathetic.  He let Chuck basically "shush" him with one finger at the meeting.  Seriously, that's how you project leadership and authority at a law firm that you're an owner of? 

 

It's another example of how Chuck is a control freak.  He doesn't care who he inconveniences or undercuts as long as she's the one controlling everything.

Edited March 1, 2016 by benteen

[Hanahope]

A few have wondered why Jimmy's bit on the bus was against the rules.  This is the ABA Rule on Soliciation:

 

Rule 7.3: Direct Contact with Prospective Clients
Information About Legal Services
Rule 7.3 Solicitation of Clients

(a)  A lawyer shall not by in‑person, live telephone or real-time electronic contact solicit professional employment when a significant motive for the lawyer's doing so is the lawyer's pecuniary gain, unless the person contacted:

(1)  is a lawyer; or

(2)  has a family, close personal, or prior professional relationship with the lawyer.

 

 

So, the reason why Jimmy's actions on the bus were wrong is because they were against the ABA rules.  Why there is such a rule, i'm not sure, something about people assuming lawyers are truthful and they have a position of trust and respect (Yeah, people really used to believe that) that can be abused and the rule is to prevent even the appearance of impropriety.

 

So Jimmy's direct contact with the elderly people was wrong.  Of course. some lawyers do this all the time (i.e. ambulance chasers), but most have learned to use middle men, like the ambulance drivers, tow-truck drivers, etc. who carry the lawyer's business cards and hand them out to accident victims.

 

The commercial is allowed because its not "real-time" electronic contact.

[nodorothyparker]

It's a neat trick that Chuck can be a hugely condescending ass to Jimmy, planting seeds of doubt in him to everyone at the table, and still not really be wrong.  He knows Jimmy and he knows him well enough to know that Jimmy couldn't resist taking shortcuts without getting too hung up on the finer points of the law.  You could tell it was absolutely killing him that people who don't know Jimmy as well as he knows Jimmy were patting him on the back for a job for well done and he was going to have his say.  He could also see his smackdown effectively getting inside Jimmy's head again, which is where he needs to be if he's going to stay in control.

 

Jimmy's spiel on the bus and later his making of the commercial were things of beauty to see and were equally balanced out by the sheer torture of watching him make what we all knew was the wrong decision to not show Clifford Main the tape first and then the waiting.  Waiting first for the phones to ring so he'd at least have some justification to show (that shot of him standing over the ringing phone banks to behold his work was amazing)  and waiting some more for the phone call he had to know was coming.

 

At this point I don't know if Stacy is playing Mike or she really does think she's hearing gunshots.  There's a case to be made either way and I'll wait to see where they go with it.  In the end though, I'm not sure it really matters as it serves as Mike's impetus for getting deeper into a world he's so far stayed on the surface of.

Edited March 1, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Bryce Lynch]

A few have wondered why Jimmy's bit on the bus was against the rules. This is the ABA Rule on Soliciation:

Rule 7.3: Direct Contact with Prospective Clients

Information About Legal Services

Rule 7.3 Solicitation of Clients

(a) A lawyer shall not by in‑person, live telephone or real-time electronic contact solicit professional employment when a significant motive for the lawyer's doing so is the lawyer's pecuniary gain, unless the person contacted:

(1) is a lawyer; or

(2) has a family, close personal, or prior professional relationship with the lawyer.

So, the reason why Jimmy's actions on the bus were wrong is because they were against the ABA rules. Why there is such a rule, i'm not sure, something about people assuming lawyers are truthful and they have a position of trust and respect (Yeah, people really used to believe that) that can be abused and the rule is to prevent even the appearance of impropriety.

So Jimmy's direct contact with the elderly people was wrong. Of course. some lawyers do this all the time (i.e. ambulance chasers), but most have learned to use middle men, like the ambulance drivers, tow-truck drivers, etc. who carry the lawyer's business cards and hand them out to accident victims.

The commercial is allowed because its not "real-time" electronic contact.

I tend to think the main reason for this "ethical" standard is to prevent other lawyers from losing business to lawyers who hustle (in the good, hardworking sense of word.)

I wonder if Jimmy could argue an exception to the rule, based upon Sandpiper apparently stealing their residents' mail from Davis & Main.

He may have technically stayed within ethical standards as he went to speak to the lady who had responded to the mailer. If her fellow residents overheard him speaking to her and decided to solicit his legal advice, that is not his fault. :)

On the subject, I would think D&M could send the mail return receipt requested. Also, if they can make contact with a few residents at each facility they could get them to sign affidavits that they did not receive their mail and get postal employees to verify that they were delivered to Sandpiper.

The Sandpiper employees who interfered with US Mail could face serious felony charges with jail time and enormous fines and would certainly roll on the managers and executives who ordered them to do it.

[peeayebee]

Jimmy's idea of getting around the law was to speak to the lady on the bus who responded to the direct mailer in the presence of the other seniors and pull those seniors in. Make them approach Jimmy. However, even if that flew, there's the problem of him paying the bus driver to pull over where Jimmy would be waiting. There's no way he can explain that "coincidence."

 

When Jimmy wiggles his fingers at the phone to make it ring, was that something we first saw in BB? Have we seen it in BCS previous to this ep?

 

It makes sense that the seniors wouldn't call the law firm immediately after the commercial. They had to watch the rest of Murder She Wrote.

Edited March 1, 2016 by peeayebee

[Hanahope]

I tend to think the main reason for this "ethical" standard is to prevent other lawyers from losing business to lawyers who hustle (in the good, hardworking sense of word.)

I wonder if Jimmy could argue an exception to the rule, based upon Sandpiper apparently stealing their residents' mail from Davis & Main.

 

 

There are other rules against a lawyer speaking with someone who's already represented by another attorney.

 

Certainly Davis & Main could work to prove Sandpiper isn't delivering their mailers.  But as Clifford said, it would take a lot of work to do that, as you said, talking with residents, getting affidavits from postal employees (assuming the postal employees even remembered delivering any particular envelope to the residents), etc.  Clifford thought it wasn't worth the time and expense.

 

My thought is having two "pretend" elderly people eat at the same restaurant as the residents and talk loudly about the claims against Sandpiper and hope that the residents hear the talk and ask the two pretend people questions to get the attorneys names, maybe hand out the same "mailers" that the residents could then return and/or pass out to other residents.  That would take a bit of time and expense too, but Jimmy could possible do this without making it obvious.

[ghoulina]

Hamlin is pathetic.  He let Chuck basically "shush" him with one finger at the meeting.  Seriously, that's how you project leadership and authority at a law firm that you're an owner of?

 

That finger wag. One little move. So much behind it. Chuck may have been out of the office for over a year, but he clearly still has all the power. It makes me wonder how things worked when he was a daily presence, before he got sick. Is Howard's fear of pissing off Chuck really just because he's worried about Chuck finally leaving and wanting to be bought out? Or is he more worried about Chuck coming back full time and lording over everyone again? How is the partnership divided up, I wonder? 

 

So, the reason why Jimmy's actions on the bus were wrong is because they were against the ABA rules.  Why there is such a rule, i'm not sure, something about people assuming lawyers are truthful and they have a position of trust and respect (Yeah, people really used to believe that) that can be abused and the rule is to prevent even the appearance of impropriety.

So Jimmy's direct contact with the elderly people was wrong.  Of course. some lawyers do this all the time (i.e. ambulance chasers), but most have learned to use middle men, like the ambulance drivers, tow-truck drivers, etc. who carry the lawyer's business cards and hand them out to accident victims.

 

Thanks. I guess I'm just still confused as to why the direct mailer is okay, but talking to them on the bus isn't. Yes, a mailing is not done in person or electronically, but is that really the only distinction? A mailer is still letting them know the same information.

When Jimmy wiggles his fingers at the phone to make it ring, was that something we first saw in BB? Have we seen it in BCS previous to this ep?

 

Yea, in last season we saw several scenes of him sitting in his camped, nail salon office, wiggling his fingers and willing someone, anyone, to call. I don't think he is hurting for clients once we get to the BB time line. I don't remember him doing that then, but I could be wrong. 

[nodorothyparker]

Hamlin's extreme deference to Chuck makes me really wonder about the backstory there.  I suppose it could just be that Chuck has been "sick" for awhile now and he doesn't want him to pull out of the partnership or maybe residual loyalty to the fact that I believe Chuck and Hamlin's father started the firm.  But you get the sense that Chuck was always just a demanding brittle peach to work with.

Edited March 1, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[ShadowFacts]

 

I also loved seeing Jimmy talking to the seniors on the bus. That was a thing of beauty. And although Chuck is a terrible person, he has a point about the legality of how Jimmy got so many Sandpiper clients to sign up with the firm. I'm not convinced that the Sandpiper lawyers would have picked up on it, but still, he knows Jimmy well enough to suspect some questionable activity on his part.

 

I appreciate the acting of the bus scene as much as anybody, but I have some discomfort with the way he talks to these people like they're little children.  It's kind of offensive to me.  They all just buy the nephew routine hook, line and sinker?  Nah, just because they're older and in assisted living, they haven't all checked their brains at the door.  Many have a healthy suspicion of lawyers that would kick in even given Jimmy's wily, folksy approach.  I can't be completely ticked off because Sandpiper has been screwing with them and that's the bigger evil.  So carry on, Jimmy, but a little respect please.  I liked his interactions with the elders better last season; he seemed more genuinely caring.  I remember that scene where he assiduously had written down and could recite all of the lady's figurines for her will.

[scrb]

Did Jimmy push the ethical envelope during season 1 on the Sandpiper case?

My recollection is that his work on the case was completely legitimate.

So why push it now? Wanting to impress the other lawyers, his brother and Kim?

Thought the case was already huge but they're trying to signup more people? Why limit themselves to direct mail in that case? Jimmy did a lot of footwork -- all those bingo games -- to discover the case so why wouldn't they try to do more than send postcards?

[Bannon]

The sad part of this episode to me was that Jimmy's decision to send the commercial to the television station was based in his lack of confidence in his ability to sell the idea to Davis and Maine partners. Jimmy always believes in his ability to sell an idea, unless Chuck is undermining that confidence. I really think that if Chuck hadn't undermined him in the meeting, followed by Kim  chipping away at him (Chuck's malevolent, whereas Kim is pretty reasonably looking out for herself), Jimmy would have tried to pitch the partners on the commercial as merely a very low risk (to the firm's image)  1-time, 30 second experiment, in a pretty small market, just to gauge the response. The ensuing avalanche of phone calls would have had a very good chance of swaying them to expand, and even if they still were worried about the image hit, there is a very simple solution. Farm the commercial out to another law firm, this time a very, very, small one (Santa Fe is lousy with them, it being the state capitol), for a very, very small slice of the pie, with Jimmy acting as liason. It's a very solvable problem, if Evil Chuck would stop trying to ruin his brother.

[RCharter]

I guess I am a bit confused as to what constitutes "solicitation" in regards to practicing law. D&M has already been sending out direct mailers. Cliff was apparently okay with the IDEA of a commercial (but was understandably pissed he never saw it before it ran). But during the meeting they made it sound like you cannot just go up and approach these seniors and offer your services. I'm not sure how a direct mailer is all that different in theory. 

. 

Its mostly in person solicitation that the rule applies to.  I believe the logic is that because you can see a mailer and there is proof of what you've written, its easy to determine if it falls into false and misleading advertising.  Therefore an attorney is less likely to engage in any shady business in a mailer.  But an attorney's stock and trade is the power of persuasion, and so....in person solicitation from an attorney can easily cross the line from kinda persuasive into pushy, and over the line into something unconscionable.  Especially with "at risk" populations, like the elderly, or children, or those that have just had a car accident.

[RCharter]

Did Jimmy push the ethical envelope during season 1 on the Sandpiper case?

My recollection is that his work on the case was completely legitimate.

So why push it now? Wanting to impress the other lawyers, his brother and Kim?

Thought the case was already huge but they're trying to signup more people? Why limit themselves to direct mail in that case? Jimmy did a lot of footwork -- all those bingo games -- to discover the case so why wouldn't they try to do more than send postcards?

I guess in person solicitations always push the envelope, but it may also be construed when he started, he was more doing some sort of "discovery" to see if there was even a case or to determine if this was just a one time mistake.  But when you know there is already a cause of action, and your sole purpose is to sign people up to be part of a class action I can see where the line would be crossed.  

 

But, and I may be wrong, I thought that if you had a class action of that type, you could send notice to people that they could opt out if they were part of the class.  And if they didn't opt out they would be included in the settlement regardless.  So, I don't really see right now why client outreach is so remarkably important. Unless they haven't gotten class certification, and need more residents in order to get class certification.

It's a neat trick that Chuck can be a hugely condescending ass to Jimmy, planting seeds of doubt in him to everyone at the table, and still not really be wrong.  He knows Jimmy and he knows him well enough to know that Jimmy couldn't resist taking shortcuts without getting too hung up on the finer points of the law.  You could tell it was absolutely killing him that people who don't know Jimmy as well as he knows Jimmy were patting him on the back for a job for well done and he was going to have his say.  He could also see his smackdown effectively getting inside Jimmy's head again, which is where he needs to be if he's going to stay in control.

 

Jimmy's spiel on the bus and later his making of the commercial were things of beauty to see and were equally balanced out by the sheer torture of watching him make what we all knew was the wrong decision to not show Clifford Main the tape first and then the waiting.  Waiting first for the phones to ring so he'd at least have some justification to show (that shot of him standing over the ringing phone banks to behold his work was amazing)  and waiting some more for the phone call he had to know was coming.

For me, the most heartbreaking part was him going back to Kim after that call.  He knows he is in big trouble.  The sort of trouble that he may not be able to tap dance his way out of.  He could easily lose his job.  But instead of being able to vent to Kim, he has to pretend everything is okay when a bit of him must be dying inside....knowing that she will eventually find out about the commercial and leave him.....knowing that he is on the verge of losing everything....knowing that once again Chuck will be smugly able to say that all he is is Slippin' Jimmy.

[Bannon]

I guess in person solicitations always push the envelope, but it may also be construed when he started, he was more doing some sort of "discovery" to see if there was even a case or to determine if this was just a one time mistake.  But when you know there is already a cause of action, and your sole purpose is to sign people up to be part of a class action I can see where the line would be crossed.  

 

But, and I may be wrong, I thought that if you had a class action of that type, you could send notice to people that they could opt out if they were part of the class.  And if they didn't opt out they would be included in the settlement regardless.  So, I don't really see right now why client outreach is so remarkably important. Unless they haven't gotten class certification, and need more residents in order to get class certification.

Yeah, I may be wrong, but I don't think they yet have class certification.

[RCharter]

 

It makes sense that the seniors wouldn't call the law firm immediately after the commercial. They had to watch the rest of Murder She Wrote.

They have Beta Max recorders!  

Yeah, I may be wrong, but I don't think they yet have class certification.

okay, than that makes sense.  I wonder how many people they need?

 

I wonder why they have only pulled from ABQ?  Jimmy should be roadtripping!

[Hanahope]

I think the difference between what Jimmy was doing on the bus and what he was doing at the bingo game was that on the bus, he was soliciting for a very specific purpose, trying to get the residents to sign up for the class action.  The bingo game was merely handing out his business cards, etc. as general advertising for whatever services the elderly might need.  They still had to call him up to request the services.  On the bus, he had the forms all ready to go to sign them up, and especially being in a group like that, the power of the herd might persuade some to sign up who might not have done so on their own.  That again is why the ABA rule is against "in person" solicitation.

 

it is a shame that he didn't try to ask Clifford before airing the commercial.  I agree that it was likely the combination of seeing the ultra conservative/boring prior commercial where the partners "anguished over" a swirl, added by Kim's "astonishment" that the partners let Jimmy air it.  Jimmy got scared that the partners would see the commercial as more 'theatrical' and squash it.  So he went with forgiveness after the great result came in, rather than risk permission.

Yeah, I may be wrong, but I don't think they yet have class certification.

 

okay, than that makes sense.  I wonder how many people they need?

 

 

It depends.  They have to show a commonality of interest and damages.  They have to have enough to demonstrate that the class is "too large" to bring as individual lawsuits, so definitely more than just a few people at each facility.

[RCharter]

Hamlin is pathetic.  He let Chuck basically "shush" him with one finger at the meeting.  Seriously, that's how you project leadership and authority at a law firm that you're an owner of? 

 

It's another example of how Chuck is a control freak.  He doesn't care who he inconveniences or undercuts as long as she's the one controlling everything.

I think Howard is one of those guys that knows how to play both sides against the middle and come out unscathed.  If he never fully supports anyone, no one can blame him for anything.

 

1) He didn't stop Jimmy's position and D&M, but he didn't encourage it either, so Chuck can't be mad at him

2) He's not the one asking about the solicitation, Chuck is, so Jimmy can't be mad at him.  Chuck is sr. partner.

 

Howard comes out smelling like a rose to everyone.  I'm so glad that the show hasn't made him out to be the mustache twirling villain he could have so easily been, but just a basic guy who doesn't want to take a strong position and wants to survive.

[Bannon]

In fact, the more I think about this, the more awful Chuck, and even the Davis and Maine partners, seem to me. These old people, across several states, have been terribly defrauded, and you have reason to believe Sandpiper is actively trying to prevent these old people from obtaining legal representation. If everybody is so worried about their image, with regard to t.v. advertisements, they should get Jimmy set up in a different firm immediately, to use that firm's name in the tv spots, with the agreement that Jimmy will run all his outreach efforts by them first. To do otherwise is really failing the old folks who are getting ripped off. 

[RCharter]

In fact, the more I think about this, the more awful Chuck, and even the Davis and Maine partners, seem to me. These old people, across several states, have been terribly defrauded, and you have reason to believe Sandpiper is actively trying to prevent these old people from obtaining legal representation. If everybody is so worried about their image, with regard to t.v. advertisements, they should get Jimmy set up in a different firm immediately, to use that firm's name in the tv spots, with the agreement that Jimmy will run all his outreach efforts by them first. To do otherwise is really failing the old folks who are getting ripped off. 

I had that exact thought, why wouldn't Jimmy just have his own "feeder firm?"  Of course Chuck would still do Chuck, but at least D&M wouldn't have to be a part of anything.  They could probably even invest in the firm as a limited partner to give him the operating money.  I don't think Jimmy is doing any of the actual brief writing or other legal work in the case, which is fine, that isn't his thing, that is Chuck's thing.  Jimmy could run his $700 ad and feed the clients to D&M the same way they fed the initial clients to HHM.

 

I feel that if Jimmy had his own feeder firm, D&M would ask as few questions as possible about his methods of outreach since Jimmy does always seem to have thought around the ABA rules, and I'm not sure the court would simply dismiss a real case because there was in person solicitation.  They would probably take sanctions against Jimmy, and maybe D&M...but doubtful if they had no idea, or any reason to believe that Jimmy was engaged in unethical behavior (he may be slippin' jimmy, but that doesn't mean D&M should automatically assume it means he hasn't rehabilitated and cleaned up his act)

 

But then again, a big part of this is Jimmy getting Kim's approval, and Chuck's respect.  All of that (to Jimmy) is gained by this fancy pants position at D&M or else he may have thought of it himself.

[Bryce Lynch]

Its mostly in person solicitation that the rule applies to. I believe the logic is that because you can see a mailer and there is proof of what you've written, its easy to determine if it falls into false and misleading advertising. Therefore an attorney is less likely to engage in any shady business in a mailer. But an attorney's stock and trade is the power of persuasion, and so....in person solicitation from an attorney can easily cross the line from kinda persuasive into pushy, and over the line into something unconscionable. Especially with "at risk" populations, like the elderly, or children, or those that have just had a car accident.

I think that the fact that mailers would tend to have general pitches or information in them while face to face solicitation would be more individualized is probably also a factor.

I still maintain that this ethical restriction is mostly about protecting established law firms from the hard work and expense of soliciting new business. It had little or nothing to do with "protecting clients" from unscrupulous lawyers.

If (pre Davis and Main) Jimmy McGill is busting his hump and spending unbillable hours seeking out clients, he is going to get business that otherwise would go to HHM and Davis and Main.

To keep from losing business, the big firms would need to spend time and money "chasing ambulances" and otherwise marketing their services.

[Bannon]

I had that exact thought, why wouldn't Jimmy just have his own "feeder firm?"  Of course Chuck would still do Chuck, but at least D&M wouldn't have to be a part of anything.  They could probably even invest in the firm as a limited partner to give him the operating money.  I don't think Jimmy is doing any of the actual brief writing or other legal work in the case, which is fine, that isn't his thing, that is Chuck's thing.  Jimmy could run his $700 ad and feed the clients to D&M the same way they fed the initial clients to HHM.

 

I feel that if Jimmy had his own feeder firm, D&M would ask as few questions as possible about his methods of outreach since Jimmy does always seem to have thought around the ABA rules, and I'm not sure the court would simply dismiss a real case because there was in person solicitation.  They would probably take sanctions against Jimmy, and maybe D&M...but doubtful if they had no idea, or any reason to believe that Jimmy was engaged in unethical behavior (he may be slippin' jimmy, but that doesn't mean D&M should automatically assume it means he hasn't rehabilitated and cleaned up his act)

 

But then again, a big part of this is Jimmy getting Kim's approval, and Chuck's respect.  All of that (to Jimmy) is gained by this fancy pants position at D&M or else he may have thought of it himself.

I hope Gilligan and the other writers execute this part of the story well, because it is ripe for exploration of the situational ethics that even the most prestigous law firms can engage in, and how the hypocrisy of it all helps Jimmy become Saul.  

[RCharter]

I think that the fact that mailers would tend to have general pitches or information in them while face to face solicitation would be more individualized is probably also a factor.

I still maintain that this ethical restriction is mostly about protecting established law firms from the hard work and expense of soliciting new business. It had little or nothing to do with "protecting clients" from unscrupulous lawyers.

If (pre Davis and Main) Jimmy McGill is busting his hump and spending unbillable hours seeking out clients, he is going to get business that otherwise would go to HHM and Davis and Main.

To keep from losing business, the big firms would need to spend time and money "chasing ambulances" and otherwise marketing their services.

I think to a degree, you're certainly correct.  Its more likely to be general pitches in a mailer because there are rules against using false/misleading information, promising the outcome of a case, promising a quick cash settlement, etc, etc.  So, because someone can always look at what you wrote in a mailer its more likely to be general information, because you don't want to look like you're promising a cash settlement, promising the outcome of a case, etc.  You're more likely to follow all the rules when there is a paper trail of what you said. 

 

But an in person solicitation with a person who is trained to persuade judges and juries can get dicey.  An attorney may be too smart to say "you're gonna get money for sure!" but they may be able to persuade you without actually saying it.  And they are sometimes soliciting a person who is desperate or particularly vulnerable (someone who has just been in a car accident). Or at least that has been the reasoning courts have given.  The reasoning does sound a little odd, since there are other professions where in person solicitation in allowed.  Are you telling me an accountant can't be as persuasive as an attorney?  Or just because their profession isn't built around persuasion, they can solicit in person, but an attorney can't?

[PrincessSteel]

Ugh. I've worked for men like Chuck. 'Justify your work to me in this meeting while every other manager is allowed to report without challenge.' Thanks for the PTSD, show!

[toodles]

This is a true story. Before my parents died, they made tape of their stuff and talked about where it came from etc. After their deaths, we played the tape. The first few minutes was a Murder She Wrote episode. It was so typical of my parents to not spend the two bucks to buy a new tape. My siblings and I still laugh about this.

I guess you could call me slippin toodles because I thought the bus was a good way to reach the people that were ripped off. Unethical probably. Effective, yes.

[SoTheresThat]

We had to see Jimmy handle the commercial issue the way he did so that we could see his "Saulness" in action.  If he'd have done it by official, sanctioned channels, we wouldn't have seen the outlaw vibe that Saul will have.

 

Any by the book attorney could have handled it in a by the book way.  Jimmy and Saul are not that type of attorney.

[Simon Boccanegra]

I appreciate the acting of the bus scene as much as anybody, but I have some discomfort with the way he talks to these people like they're little children.  It's kind of offensive to me.  They all just buy the nephew routine hook, line and sinker?  Nah, just because they're older and in assisted living, they haven't all checked their brains at the door.  Many have a healthy suspicion of lawyers that would kick in even given Jimmy's wily, folksy approach.  I can't be completely ticked off because Sandpiper has been screwing with them and that's the bigger evil.  So carry on, Jimmy, but a little respect please.  I liked his interactions with the elders better last season; he seemed more genuinely caring.  I remember that scene where he assiduously had written down and could recite all of the lady's figurines for her will.

 

You've put your figure on why it bothers me, and I haven't enjoyed the "Jimmy and the elderly" scenes as much as some have (I felt that way last season as well). I hear a lot of that tone when I visit my mother where she presently lives, and I don't like it then, either. It's patronizing and phony. He's addressing elderly people who do not appear to be demented as though they're...well, as you said, small children. It would do wonders if he'd run up against just one who calls him on it, because there are a lot of smart, tart-tongued older people who would find this approach alienating.  

 

On the other hand, I don't necessarily need to approve of Jimmy's style, and if aspects of it bother me, it's consistent with where we know he's heading in his pitches to people of all ages. There was an element of calculation about it from the beginning, with the Matlock suits.  

[RCharter]

^^but I think it does illustrate Chuck's point as to why the solicitation rules were written for older people.  I'm not saying all older people are that way (I'm thinking of the wonderful turn Elaine Stritch did on 30Rock) but there have been so many cases of older people with minds that aren't as sharp as they once were and who were taught to respect attorneys and be nice who can get taken advantage of.

[shapeshifter]

This is a true story. Before my parents died, they made tape of their stuff and talked about where it came from etc. After their deaths, we played the tape. The first few minutes was a Murder She Wrote episode. It was so typical of my parents to not spend the two bucks to buy a new tape. My siblings and I still laugh about this.

I guess you could call me slippin toodles because I thought the bus was a good way to reach the people that were ripped off. Unethical probably. Effective, yes.

And/or it may have been their favorite MSW episode and they wanted to share it with you and your siblings. ;)

Upthread someone mentioned that on the bus Jimmy talked to the elderly as if they were children. In many ways my elderly (87-year-old) mother is a child, and I have to filter what I say to her so she can understand on at least some level the important (to her) points. For instance, to explain my new short hairdo, instead of "cancer" I say "polyps," and instead of "chemo" I say "medication."

Of course Jimmy/Saul's motive for describing the retirement home's questionable billing as "mistakes" is primarily to try to stay within the bounds of legal ethics, but it would also be easier to engage them as clients if they don't feel like they confronting a large entity that wants to do them financial harm.

[kat165]

Thanks, Bama. If they were looking at a missing piece
of stucco that explains the expression on Mike's face
during that conversation!

 

Thank you again, Umbellina, this info helps a lot as
does that link. Yeah, I'd be scared too. This is such
a fascintating show, best "new" show I've seen in a long
while.

 

I like it better that the dil is not conning him. Makes
for a more poignant storyline. If she is/was conning him
I think he'd catch on pretty fast. I don't think much gets
by Mike.

 

Jimmy and the old folks on the bus: that "my nana and bo
bo" cracked me up.

 

Bryce, thanks for the info.

 

Something that just occured to me as I'm reading this thread:
If this is a precursor to the BB years and that's where/
when Mike's son was killed how come he's already dead in
this episode? What am I missing?

 

Or was the son killed in the first season of BCS? I did
miss a few key eps.

 

Ok, Ghoulina, that sort of explains it. Thanks.

 

Thanks, Peeayebee. I don't have netflix, but I'll see if
I can manage to find that ep elsewhere. It was one of the
eps I missed during the marathon.

 

I don't entirely trust the dil either.

[wetmoregal]

By far, BCS is currently my favorite tv show, and it is on its way for becoming my all-time favorite.  I find myself so absorbed in the story, the characters, the setting, everything.  It is a great call back to one of my other favorite tv shows, Breaking Bad.  ABQ is my home town, and I love seeing familiar places in each show.  I love the BB references, especially those in this episode: the pink pig, Ice Station Zebra Association and Lawsen, the gun dealer in the preview for next week.  I also love the use of the phone number for Davis and Main (505-242-7700).  The 242 prefix is an older one for ABQ (I'm thinking for the Old Town/Country Club/Downtown area), and wonder if it is called, who would answer.  Definitely not a Santa Fe number where Davis and Main are located, but that's ok. 

I live in southern CO now, and KKTV channel 11 is a Colorado Springs channel (CBS).  I wonder if Murder, She Wrote, actually aired on channel 11 at that time in the afternoon during the BSC time period.

I also liked the "UNM Media" stenciled on the equipment case brought in by the film students.

"Does anybody like you?" and "It's Visine" cracked me up.  Loved Saul speaking with the seniors on the bus.  He had them hook, line and sinker.

Wonder where the building is with the TX flag painted on the side.  In Amarillo?  Don't know where in ABQ it could be.  I guess it could have been painted specifically for the show, but loved how aged and dirty it looked.  Like it had been there for a long time.

And I loved Saul signing over his office phone, hoping it would ring.

Yes, I think the location where Mike and Nacho meet was also in BB.  Think it was when Jessie was helping Mike collect money all over the state, and "saved" him from thugs at the last stop.  What do you think?

The only thing that troubled me was the age of Mike's grandaughter. I too thought she'd be younger in BCS, but I can live with it.

By the way, the Sundance Channel is airing all seasons of Breaking Bad (Wed nights here in southern CO through Direct TV).  Not sure exactly what season we're on but Walt just purchased the 38 gun with the serial numbers filed off from Lawsen and Walt and Skylar just purchased the car wash.

Can't wait for next week!

[Uncle Benzene]

The sad part of this episode to me was that Jimmy's decision to send the commercial to the television station was based in his lack of confidence in his ability to sell the idea to Davis and Maine partners.

 

See, while I totally see where you're coming from there, I had a totally different interpretation of what was going through Jimmy's mind there. I thought it was precisely Jimmy's confidence that prompted him to make that move. He "knew" it was gonna work. He had already floated the idea to Cliff, and Cliff seemed receptive. Cliff mentioned that D&M had already run an ad before, and Jimmy had gone to the trouble of watching that previous ad. What Jimmy produced wasn't all that different.

 

Now, should Jimmy have waited for an official green light from Cliff and his other bosses? Of course, absolutely. But I think what Jimmy was thinking was "OF COURSE they're gonna approve this, hell, they're gonna love it." I don't really think he had much reason to think they wouldn't. But in the meantime, what he did know was that Cliff was out of town (for what, a week?) and he had also learned that the previous ad had gotten "stuck in committee" for who knows how long while they debated the perfect swooshy background. Ain't nobody got time for that. And being "Charlie Hustle" has always worked pretty well for Jimmy.

 

So I think it was precisely an overabundance of that confidence that got him to go ahead with it. He knew he SHOULD wait for approval, which is why he was lamenting over the tape sitting on his desk. But at the end of the day, he concluded "They'd approve it anyway, if not outright love it, and that'll be especially true once it works and I show them the results. Meantime, it's my department, Cliff said so in front of everybody, and there's nothing wrong with the ad I'm going to air. I floated the idea specifically to Cliff, and he reacted positively. I'm not overstepping bounds here, I'm taking initiative. Because I'm Charlie Hustle. It'll work out, and no harm done. Quite the contrary, actually."

 

I think that's why Jimmy was expecting kudos when he answered Cliff's call. He seemed genuinely shocked when Cliff's reaction wasn't overwhelmingly positive. Only then did he realize that he had colored just a little too far outside the corporate lines by not waiting for the official green light.

 

And eventually I think that's going to be the partners' conclusion. They do need to make it perfectly clear to Jimmy that he did, in fact, overstep his bounds. They need to show him his place and make him understand that it was NOT cool to do that without prior approval. They'll put the fear of god into him over it, but cooler heads will prevail and they'll let him slide. I suspect he'll probably even end up getting a pat on the back from Cliff when it's all said and done. "As long as it doesn't happen again. *wink*"

 

I suspect Jimmy's "Golden Boy" days aren't over just yet.

[SoothingDave]

In fact, the more I think about this, the more awful Chuck, and even the Davis and Maine partners, seem to me. These old people, across several states, have been terribly defrauded, and you have reason to believe Sandpiper is actively trying to prevent these old people from obtaining legal representation. If everybody is so worried about their image, with regard to t.v. advertisements, they should get Jimmy set up in a different firm immediately, to use that firm's name in the tv spots, with the agreement that Jimmy will run all his outreach efforts by them first. To do otherwise is really failing the old folks who are getting ripped off. 

 

And they might very well have done so if Jimmy had done the right thing and run it by the partners first.

 

Corporate communication is an important thing, especially so with a law firm.  You can't just have someone who has been with the company a month (or so) running ads using the company logo and name.  It's madness!  He exposes the firm to potential liability.

[Ronin Jackson]

 

Wonder where the building is with the TX flag painted on the side.  In Amarillo?  Don't know where in ABQ it could be.  I guess it could have been painted specifically for the show, but loved how aged and dirty it looked.  Like it had been there for a long time.

 

 

Everything in both BB and BCS is shot in New Mexico, and most the vast majority of it in and around ABQ. That includes the Chicago and Philadelphia scenes in Season 1 as well as the Vermont and Mexico scenes in BB. So that scene was almost surely shot somewhere in ABQ and set decorated for the show.

[futurechemist]

The way I understand solicitation is that it protects potential clients from having to make an immediate decision without carefully thinking about it.  If a lawyer is talking to you face-to-face or on the phone, you might feel pressured to make a decision right away.  If you see a commercial, or a letter, or an email, you can take as long as you want to decide to contact that lawyer.  And the field of law is all about making logical decisions, at least for lawyers that we know aren't destined to become Saul Goodman.

 

The bus scene was entertaining to watch, but kind of uncomfortable.  Yes, as a viewer, I know that Jimmy had their best interest at heart in getting all of the residents legal protections.  But if I was on that bus, I probably would have felt pressured to sign up without taking time to consult my friends/family.  And it might have been legal, since Jimmy was talking to an actual client and other people just happened to overhear and panic, but I don't know if that's what a big firm like Davis and Main wants from a new employee.

 

1 of the things I like about the show is that everybody is understandable and there aren't any moustache-twirling villains (except maybe Chuck now).  Cliff isn't an evil boss, he has every reason to be concerned that a commercial his subordinate secretly aired might result in lawsuits.  

[Ohwell]

Maybe there should be a separate thread called "The Legal Points of Better Call Saul" because this legalese stuff is getting rather...boring.  I'm just sayin'.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Ohwell

[Umbelina]

I understand that it would be hard for any single parent to handle raising a child alone and she may be having some type of stress response as well, but wouldn't she have received death benefits? Usually the BPA is very helpful for widows. Maybe I missed something and I have never watched BB, but wouldn't the spouse receive something? (killed in the line of duty stuff) The child would get SS as well, right? Survivor benefits, & if they had insurance as well. Why is she acting so destitute? 

Yes, according to the insider, she has PTSD, which is certainly understandable.  Young wife, with new baby, and a rookie cop husband, who is MURDERED for being an honest cop, by other cops.  She probably gets benefits, but I don't know if cop benefits are related to how long the cop has been on the force or not.  This guy was brand new.  She's not just afraid and grieving, she's afraid of law enforcement officers too.  I agree, it wasn't clear enough in the show, I was confused by her scenes, and shouldn't need the insider to clear it up for me.

 

Maybe "Playuh" has been reaching out to other drug dealers like Tuco to sell his wares and Nacho is getting worried about blowback? This wouldn't surprise me because he is so stupid and has no understanding of consequences.  Does anyone wonder if Jimmy really wants to be a lawyer? I feel like he picked it because he wanted Chuck's approval and acceptance. In Jimmy's mind, Chuck would approve of the occupation and it would prove to Chuck that Jimmy has "really" changed. It serves 2 purposes for him, but it may not actually feed his soul. I also think that he knows that he will never be good enough for Kim. 

 

Tuco makes the most sense, we already know that Nacho was going behind Tuco's back with his private little deal with Playuh, right?

 

Did Jimmy push the ethical envelope during season 1 on the Sandpiper case?

My recollection is that his work on the case was completely legitimate.

So why push it now? Wanting to impress the other lawyers, his brother and Kim?

Thought the case was already huge but they're trying to signup more people? Why limit themselves to direct mail in that case? Jimmy did a lot of footwork -- all those bingo games -- to discover the case so why wouldn't they try to do more than send postcards?

Pushing it now for RICO, the more clients, the more proof that this crossed state lines, in more ways than simply supplies for the Old Folk's Homes.

 

And they might very well have done so if Jimmy had done the right thing and run it by the partners first.

 

Corporate communication is an important thing, especially so with a law firm.  You can't just have someone who has been with the company a month (or so) running ads using the company logo and name.  It's madness!  He exposes the firm to potential liability.

There is no way in hell the partners would have approved that at all, let alone in a timely manner.  The show told us that quite clearly by expounding on how VERY long the partners debated the "swirl" in the previous boring commercial.  Saul knew that, and did it anyway, figuring it was better to apologize later, or that the massive success he KNEW it would have would smooth over any initial outrage.  He took a calculated risk.  He has a hard time separating success from methods.

[Auntie Anxiety]

For you young'uns out there, law firm advertising is a relatively new development. A number of years ago, lawyers were not allowed to advertise at all. No print ads, definitely no commercials on television or radio and when the rule was changed, attorneys who advertised were thought to be shady.

[Bannon]

See, while I totally see where you're coming from there, I had a totally different interpretation of what was going through Jimmy's mind there. I thought it was precisely Jimmy's confidence that prompted him to make that move. He "knew" it was gonna work. He had already floated the idea to Cliff, and Cliff seemed receptive. Cliff mentioned that D&M had already run an ad before, and Jimmy had gone to the trouble of watching that previous ad. What Jimmy produced wasn't all that different.

 

Now, should Jimmy have waited for an official green light from Cliff and his other bosses? Of course, absolutely. But I think what Jimmy was thinking was "OF COURSE they're gonna approve this, hell, they're gonna love it." I don't really think he had much reason to think they wouldn't. But in the meantime, what he did know was that Cliff was out of town (for what, a week?) and he had also learned that the previous ad had gotten "stuck in committee" for who knows how long while they debated the perfect swooshy background. Ain't nobody got time for that. And being "Charlie Hustle" has always worked pretty well for Jimmy.

 

So I think it was precisely an overabundance of that confidence that got him to go ahead with it. He knew he SHOULD wait for approval, which is why he was lamenting over the tape sitting on his desk. But at the end of the day, he concluded "They'd approve it anyway, if not outright love it, and that'll be especially true once it works and I show them the results. Meantime, it's my department, Cliff said so in front of everybody, and there's nothing wrong with the ad I'm going to air. I floated the idea specifically to Cliff, and he reacted positively. I'm not overstepping bounds here, I'm taking initiative. Because I'm Charlie Hustle. It'll work out, and no harm done. Quite the contrary, actually."

 

I think that's why Jimmy was expecting kudos when he answered Cliff's call. He seemed genuinely shocked when Cliff's reaction wasn't overwhelmingly positive. Only then did he realize that he had colored just a little too far outside the corporate lines by not waiting for the official green light.

 

And eventually I think that's going to be the partners' conclusion. They do need to make it perfectly clear to Jimmy that he did, in fact, overstep his bounds. They need to show him his place and make him understand that it was NOT cool to do that without prior approval. They'll put the fear of god into him over it, but cooler heads will prevail and they'll let him slide. I suspect he'll probably even end up getting a pat on the back from Cliff when it's all said and done. "As long as it doesn't happen again. *wink*"

 

I suspect Jimmy's "Golden Boy" days aren't over just yet.

That's interesting, because my sense of it was that Cliff wasn't very receptive, although willing to talk about it. I thought he said something along the lines of having used tv spots before, and not being happy with the experience, and kind of wincing when Jimmy brought the subject up.

 

Good writing is usually open to different interpretations, humans being the ambiguous creatures they are.

[SignGuy77]

For you young'uns out there, law firm advertising is a relatively new development. A number of years ago, lawyers were not allowed to advertise at all. No print ads, definitely no commercials on television or radio and when the rule was changed, attorneys who advertised were thought to be shady.

Which was exactly how our first impressions of Saul on Breaking Bad were formed. A low budged commercial positioning Saul as the champion of the common man against The Man. We didn't need to be told he was shady to know it, from the word go.

Edited March 1, 2016 by SignGuy77

[Bannon]

Yes, according to the insider, she has PTSD, which is certainly understandable.  Young wife, with new baby, and a rookie cop husband, who is MURDERED for being an honest cop, by other cops.  She probably gets benefits, but I don't know if cop benefits are related to how long the cop has been on the force or not.  This guy was brand new.  She's not just afraid and grieving, she's afraid of law enforcement officers too.  I agree, it wasn't clear enough in the show, I was confused by her scenes, and shouldn't need the insider to clear it up for me.

 

Tuco makes the most sense, we already know that Nacho was going behind Tuco's back with his private little deal with Playuh, right?

 

Pushing it now for RICO, the more clients, the more proof that this crossed state lines, in more ways than simply supplies for the Old Folk's Homes.

 

There is no way in hell the partners would have approved that at all, let alone in a timely manner.  The show told us that quite clearly by expounding on how VERY long the partners debated the "swirl" in the previous boring commercial.  Saul knew that, and did it anyway, figuring it was better to apologize later, or that the massive success he KNEW it would have would smooth over any initial outrage.  He took a calculated risk.  He has a hard time separating success from methods.

It such an easy problem to solve, with the use of another firm's name in the ad, for a pretty reasonable cost, but you do get some old timers who are even resistant to easy solutions.