The Juice is Loose: OJ Simpson General Discussion

[Lura]

Thanks for your replies.  I was pretty sure that at least OJ wouldn't see a penny from the show, but I wasn't positive.

[BananaRama]

Before the police chase in the white Bronco, I liked OJ Simpson. He was very charming on television and I never heard the media say anything negative about him. When the news said that his wife was brutally murdered, my first thought was, "Oh, no. Poor O.J." I was so dumb.

[Umbelina]

I was talking to a friend a couple of days ago, but we were cut off.  She worked for ABC sports (football) in 1983 for the play off games in San Francisco.  I only remember a few stories from back then, that Gifford was a sleaze, hitting on every woman in sight, and expecting pretty immediate compliance, for example.  Various infighting stuff among the announcers.  My friend worked the audio stuff, so heard everything that wasn't broadcast, the back and forth talk, director's instructions like, "cut to OJ on the field" or whatever.  Anyway, they were a pretty disgusting crew in many ways. 

 

So, she was telling me that she was so shocked during the Bronco chase, and couldn't imagine OJ did it.  She thought he was one of the nicest guys in the entire crew, always saying hello, and being appropriate with her, not hitting on her, or grabbing her ass, like so many of the other egos did.  (Now we know OJ liked tall, athletic blonds, and my friend was petite and Italian, like a mini Sophia Loren without the giant boobs.)  Anyway, she said nothing riled him, even when one of the producers was screaming at him over the microphone calling him a stupid idiot (n-word!)  I was completely shocked at that, but right then we lost the connection so I'll have to hear more later.  "He was always a total gentleman."

 

It makes me think that OJ's aggression only came out on Nicole, he took it at work, made jokes, but at home, she was beaten.

 

I loved it when my friend had that job, I got in to see the games for free.  I'll have to try to get her to tell me more stories.

[helenamonster]

That seems like pretty typical behavior of an abuser. Many times they only single out one victim; if they are a child abuser they might have three children but only abuse one of them, for instance. Rarely are they just time bombs ready to go off at any second, they actually tend to have remarkable self-control, which makes them scarier. They also seem to be relatively adept at transitioning between personalities. You hear stories all the time about people who beat their spouses and then immediately apologize in a way that the spouse is sure it won't happen again. This also helps when they keep the abuse hidden from other people in their lives. I don't know all the details but if Nicole went to her family and friends telling them OJ was beating her, I wouldn't be surprised if their initial responses were something like, "What are you talking about? He's such a nice guy!"

[MargotWendice]

That seems like pretty typical behavior of an abuser. Many times they only single out one victim; if they are a child abuser they might have three children but only abuse one of them, for instance. Rarely are they just time bombs ready to go off at any second, they actually tend to have remarkable self-control, which makes them scarier. They also seem to be relatively adept at transitioning between personalities. You hear stories all the time about people who beat their spouses and then immediately apologize in a way that the spouse is sure it won't happen again. This also helps when they keep the abuse hidden from other people in their lives. I don't know all the details but if Nicole went to her family and friends telling them OJ was beating her, I wouldn't be surprised if their initial responses were something like, "What are you talking about? He's such a nice guy!"

Exactly. This is why I have such a problem with batterers frequently being referred to 'anger management' groups. Most batterers actually manage their anger better than most--they can focus it all on one person. Of course this also contributes to their victims feeling like it must be their own fault: "He's so nice to everyone else!".

[elzin]

Batterers are in control of their anger to their victims too. Gee, why do so many victims often NOT have marks on their faces? Why don't they punch their spouse in the face in the lobby of a police station but instead behind closed doors of their houses? Of course there are victims (Nicole among them) who do have visible damage and there are the ones who do it openly, but many of them do hide it most of the time. If it was just "losing it", they'd lose it anywhere at any provocation and do open damage.

 

And I agree anger management is the wrong choice. There are specific batterer programs, but are few and far between.

[Asp Burger]

I have always been haunted by Leslie Nielsen's quote about his Naked Gun co-star OJ. He said he was shooting a movie at the time the verdict was announced, and heard talk about reasonable doubt, and the only thing he reasonably doubted was that anyone other than OJ could have committed the murders. He said there were no winners in that whole story, just losers, and that OJ must be living a very strange life right now. 

 

Leslie was "Frank," indeed! 

Edited February 28, 2016 by Asp Burger

[Simon Boccanegra]

It's always weird when you read an old news article and something that wouldn't have made you bat an eye at the time has a completely different effect now. A while back, I was reading a 1989 story on a sexual-harassment/breach-of-contract suit brought against Eddie Murphy pursuant to events on the set of Harlem Nights. OJ Simpson was trotted out as a character witness for the accuser, Michael Michele, later of Homicide and ER among other things. Michele claimed she was replaced with another actress when she rebuffed Murphy's advances.  

 

All OJ says is that he worked with Michele on HBO's 1st and Ten and she was "a nice girl" and "very pleasant" and he can't believe all the uproar. He tacitly defends Michele against counter-charges made by Murphy and Murphy's people that she was dismissed because she was antagonistic on the set, or whatever.

 

At the time I would have been thinking, "Well, that's cool of OJ to speak up for a young woman of 22 who has far less power in this he-said/she-said situation, when he could have just said 'no comment'." Now I have such a negative view of him that it colors everything, unfortunately. When he says somebody is a nice girl, I think, "Glad you didn't stab her."   

Edited February 28, 2016 by Simon Boccanegra

[FozzyBear]

So does anyone think OJ didn't do it? I know, I know. I'm just asking.

[Jel]

I wasn't a football fan so I only knew Simpson from the Naked Gun.  Really didn't know much else about him or Nicole.  When the murders happened I was in school and we used the case to study.  It was fascinating.  Originally I had no thoughts on his guilt or innocence; I only began to question it with the so-called suicide note and the slow speed chase.  I felt an innocent person would not run and/or kill themselves, especially one with young children.  Learning of the evidence only cemented my belief in his guilt and the performance put on at the trial . . . good Lord.

 

Jel, I think the case became about race but it should not have been.  It was a domestic abuse case that turned into murder.  Simpson had been abusing Nicole for years, with a gradual progression.  She knew he was going to kill her, which is terribly sad.  She told her friends and even said that he would get away with it because he's O.J.  It's disgusting that she was right. 

 

I do agree and understand there's a legacy to racism (or any other horrible act) but when do we heal?  There has always been unfairness, ugliness and evil in the world and I hate to say there always will be.  Are we supposed to understand and go along with attorneys or a jury who argue racism in any case, whether racism is at play or not?  Should a murderer walk because of the color of his or her skin or that of the victims? 

 

If race is the legacy of the Simpson case, what exactly does that say for us as people?  That we will play tit-for-tat with persons' lives?  And I'm not just speaking of Simpson, in this case, but also for the victims' families who did not get the justice of seeing their loved ones' killer incarcerated for murder.  I understand what happened for years to the black race was despicable and there was no excuse and it most certainly culminated with Rodney King.  I was in LA, I remember the horror and the emotions.  But turning the Simpson case into a racial issue and possibly acquitting the defendant as some sort of payback was no way to right that wrong. 

Psychoticstate, I am sorry, somehow I missed your post and just saw it now.

 

I do think this tragedy was another example of and all-too-common domestic violence situation, and I most definitely do not think that it's okay to let murderers go free based on past injustices. Not for one second do I think that, and I also don't think justice was served in letting the murdering OJ Simpson go free.

 

But I do think this case, (or perhaps more accurate to say the verdict in this case) was, in large part, about race, racism and the legacy of racism. If that was an all White jury I think there'd be a zero chance that they'd believe the LAPD messed around with the evidence and conspired to frame an innocent man. Zero chance of that. So why did this jury find reasonable doubt? I think they did based on their own, past real-life experience. I recall discussions at the time that many, many (if not most) Black people had a deep mistrust of the police based on the fact that they themselves had experienced some degree of unfair treatment or they knew someone who had. That's the legacy of racism that I am talking about.  

[jaync]

On my programming guide, there's a PPV listing for O.J. Simpson Ungloved: The Lost Tapes. Anybody know what that's about, and if Simpson is profiting any way from it?

[Epeolatrix]

I think it's someone capitalizing on the upswing in interest due to American Crime Story, because the website was originally registered in 1999 by Tyson Caldwell, presumably the same one with production credits on America's Funniest Home Videos.

 

The one making money on this is most likely Rick Mahr, who brought us such fine videos as "Bikini Poker Tour", "Backyard Fight Club", and the pay-per-view Punk'd-style 2006 series "Juiced" featuring OJ as a wacky prankster. Mahr said that OJ wasn't paid for "Juiced", and it looks like much of "Juiced" was repackaged with other material to make the Ungloved ppv. The OJ website itself also says "Ungloved: The Lost Tapes" and related series materials is neither operated, nor controlled by O.J. Simpson. Did he get any money at any point in time for any of the video footage? Maybe, but any money he did get would have to go to the Brown and Goldman families anyway.

[Simon Boccanegra]

There is an interesting remembrance from Chris Myers on pages 358-59 of These Guys Have All The Fun: Inside the World of ESPN. In 1998, Simpson agreed to appear as the guest on the network's in-depth interview show, Up Close, but the show had to be live. It was the first live interview with him after the wrongful death suit.

 

I'll condense, as it's a long quote. The only restriction was that discussion of Simpson's kids was off limits. Myers got death threats when the show was being promoted. Some felt a killer should not be given a forum. Robert Shapiro advised Myers to back out: "Anything connected with OJ is bad news." Bill Murray (yes, the actor) and Vincent Bugliosi helped Myers prepare for the interview. Bugliosi in particular was helpful.   

 

Simpson was the only guest whose hand Myers would not shake. In the first segment, they talked about Nicole's murder and Simpson's vow to find the real killers. When they hit the break, Simpson's PR woman came out screaming that Myers couldn't ask these questions, but OJ said Myers could ask whatever he wanted. Simpson tried to ingratiate himself with Myers in the break, asking him if he wanted to play golf sometime, which Myers found creepy.   

 

Myers later asked, "Are you capable of killing?" and "Did you do it?"  Myers quote: "I didn't expect him to confess, but if you watched that interview, your mind would be made up about what happened there. After the interview, he was sarcastic and said, 'Well, it was great talking sports with you,' since we never talked sports. I said, 'What did you think we were going to do, talk about your Heisman Trophy?' And then I walked away."  

 

That Up Close episode is on YouTube.  

[smiley13]

There is an interesting remembrance from Chris Myers on pages 358-59 of These Guys Have All The Fun: Inside the World of ESPN. In 1998, Simpson agreed to appear as the guest on the network's in-depth interview show, Up Close, but the show had to be live. It was the first live interview with him after the wrongful death suit.

 

I'll condense, as it's a long quote. The only restriction was that discussion of Simpson's kids was off limits. Myers got death threats when the show was being promoted. Some felt a killer should not be given a forum. Robert Shapiro advised Myers to back out: "Anything connected with OJ is bad news." Bill Murray (yes, the actor) and Vincent Bugliosi helped Myers prepare for the interview. Bugliosi in particular was helpful.   

 

Simpson was the only guest whose hand Myers would not shake. In the first segment, they talked about Nicole's murder and Simpson's vow to find the real killers. When they hit the break, Simpson's PR woman came out screaming that Myers couldn't ask these questions, but OJ said Myers could ask whatever he wanted. Simpson tried to ingratiate himself with Myers in the break, asking him if he wanted to play golf sometime, which Myers found creepy.   

 

Myers later asked, "Are you capable of killing?" and "Did you do it?"  Myers quote: "I didn't expect him to confess, but if you watched that interview, your mind would be made up about what happened there. After the interview, he was sarcastic and said, 'Well, it was great talking sports with you,' since we never talked sports. I said, 'What did you think we were going to do, talk about your Heisman Trophy?' And then I walked away."  

 

That Up Close episode is on YouTube.  

Why invite the guy on the show just to be rude to him?  If this Myers guy was so offended by OJ, he should not have had him appear.

[Simon Boccanegra]

Myers would probably answer that he's a reporter, so whether he liked or disliked a guest isn't really the main issue. OJ Simpson was big news and was interested in doing a sit-down interview for the show. The only reason not to have him would be if he put a bunch of restrictions on what could be discussed. Had he (or his people) said, "There can be no discussion of the murder case," I suspect Up Close would have passed.  

 

Something I didn't mention above is that Barbara Walters had earlier passed on first dibs on an OJ interview because of the insistence that it be live television.  

 

Here's the Up Close:  

 

Edited March 10, 2016 by Simon Boccanegra

[Epeolatrix]

Why invite the guy on the show just to be rude to him?

To feel brave and confrontational, with no threat or consequence. There was no journalism to be had there, just ratings.

[Automne]

I was 9-10 and in fifth grade when the murders and trial all went down. I remember a lot of us would bring our Walkmans to school to listen to the trial on the radio at every possible opportunity, especially when it got close to verdict time.

 

I didn't know who OJ Simpson was or why he was famous. I'm sure I saw him in the Naked Gun movies, but I didn't know he was a football player. An interesting piece of trivia in regards to OJ being the quintessential good guy: when James Cameron was casting for the Terminator movie, OJ's name was bandied about to play the Terminator, but in the end, Cameron decided against it because he felt that nobody would take a nice guy like OJ seriously as a villain.

 

As for Nicole, I never let mistresses off the hook. I have a very low threshold for infidelity and hold both members of the affair responsible. If you know the other person is married and that doesn't stop you, you're not a good person. It's hypocritical to have been OJ's mistress and then get upset when he started cheating on her. Why be surprised? If he'll cheat with you, he'll cheat on you. So his cheating was only okay when you were benefiting from it? She was 18, meaning she was an adult. Not a fully formed adult, but still an adult and old enough to know better. I wouldn't go as far to say she was a gold-digger. I don't fault any woman for being flattered about getting the attention of a handsome (so you all say, I don't see it, personally) and famous man, but I do expect some logical thought.

 

Now, all that is completely separate from the domestic violence and her subsequent murder because who is going to think that their lover or whatever is capable of that before it happens? I mean, aside from the serial killer groupies out there.

[ButterQueen]

Whether Nicole dated OJ as a married man is irrelevant.....she did not deserve to be murdered.

[Spartan Girl]

One thing that stuck out to be in the OJ Hidden Tapes documentary was the home movie footage of Nicole and OJ with their newborn daughter, because OJ's charm was at its peak in that clip. He was all cooing and sweet over the new baby. It was something I would have found adorable on its own....but knowing what I know about everything that happened after, it just made my skin crawl.

Just goes to show that you never can tell.

[GHScorpiosRule]

One thing that stuck out to be in the OJ Hidden Tapes documentary was the home movie footage of Nicole and OJ with their newborn daughter, because OJ's charm was at its peak in that clip. He was all cooing and sweet over the new baby. It was something I would have found adorable on its own....but knowing what I know about everything that happened after, it just made my skin crawl.

Just goes to show that you never can tell.

 

Yep. And I also remember how upset Nicole was that Syndey didn't "look black." She actually said that, and OJ brushed it off, like, he didn't care; he looked so happy at seeing their baby girl. It gave me chills, if that makes sense.

[Spartan Girl]

Yeah, the subtext of that statement does give me chills. Yikes.

[CaughtOnTape]

I was 18 when this happened.  Just graduated high school.  I was at a friends house when the Bronco thing happened, we left and came back and it was still on the TV.  All I remember thinking back then was "who gives a shit?"

 

I worked at Wal-Mart at the time and when the verdict was read a crapload of people were standing in the electronics department to listen and watch the TVs.  I'd never heard the store so silent.  While there were extreme reactions shown on TV, no one really did anything except nod and walk away.  Like it was an accepted verdict.

 

I know it sounds odd, but I grew up in Suburban Denver where you'd think racism would be running rampant, but I never really saw it nor did I see any of my friends who were minorities being subjected to it (though I'm positive they were, just not with me so it wasn't a discussion we had).  So when this trial started with the race thing, it was really my first foray into the fact that people treat other people differently based on their skin color.  Only then did I realize how much racism was around me that I was completely blind to.  

 

I always thought he did it.  Mostly because I couldn't figure out who else would have done it.  And I couldn't put my finger on it, but there was something about OJ that was "off" during the trial segments I did see.  He looked smug through the whole thing.  Like he knew there was no way he'd be convicted for it.  He's the type of person where if I saw him walking down a dark alley, I'd turn around and go the other way (I feel the same way about Edward Norton after seeing Primal Fear though so....).  And I felt that way even when I saw him in the Naked Gun movies.  He pinged my alarm big time.

[lovinbob]

Yeah, the subtext of that statement does give me chills. Yikes.

At the risk of appearing obtuse (too late), what subtext are you reading? (Sincere question -- I'm just not sure what to think.)

[Spartan Girl]

At the risk of appearing obtuse (too late), what subtext are you reading? (Sincere question -- I'm just not sure what to think.)

Nicole seemed to imply that OJ was already paranoid about the baby's paternity (i.e. that she was cheating on him), which is a common tactic for abusers. That would make her very afraid that the baby wasn't "black enough".

[Simon Boccanegra]

At about 29:55 in the Myers interview above, there's a great quote: "I’ve looked throughout history, and when I read the Bible, from Moses to Jesus to whoever you want to name...Job, they all went through similar things. And I think that’s what the Bible was, for me: an example. It was like a map that says ‘Things like this can happen in your life, and you can overcome it’.”

 

The persecutions of the prophet Orenthal. No further comment.  

 

I have another gem, from Part 3 of his Greta van Susteren interview. She asks him how he marks the tenth anniversary of the murders. He brushes it off and says he doesn't think about anniversaries. He starts listing dates he doesn't remember. He says, "I have no idea what day my mother died. I have no idea what day my baby [daughter with Marguerite] died...well, I kind of know that because it was football and I was at a game."  

 

It's hard for me to understand anyone believing in Simpson's innocence, but far harder for me to imagine anyone watching an interview with him (irrespective of the guilt/innocence question) and being able to stand him afterward. Seriously, this legendary charisma he has (or had) does not survive when he starts talking. His attorneys in the criminal trial must have been ready to hogtie him to keep him off the stand.  

Edited March 21, 2016 by Simon Boccanegra

[psychoticstate]

Simon's quotes show just how narcissistic and out of touch Simpson is.  Who wouldn't remember the date their beloved mother passed away?  My grandmother passed away 30 years ago this year and I still remember the date.  Worse to me is that Simpson at first says he cannot remember the day his daughter died and then backtracks to say yes, he "kind of" knows it because he was at a football game. 

 

That said, while I believe Simpson had been a narcissist and had been enabled for a long time prior to the murders, I think he changed after them.  He was now invincible in his mind because he'd gotten away with killing two people.  Therefore the rules didn't apply to him.  So it's not surprising that he wouldn't mark the anniversary of the murders; the same way it's not surprising that he wouldn't care to have Ron be able to live again, since people die every day and Ron meant nothing to him.

[Dejana]

Here's a sampling of OJ's workout tape:

 

[smiley13]

Shame on Dominck Dunne for helping Fuhrman profit after this case.  How could he sit there in court and hear the Fuhrman tapes and get involved with him later when Fuhrman insinuated himself into the Moxley case?

[Umbelina]

Shame on Dominck Dunne for helping Fuhrman profit after this case.  How could he sit there in court and hear the Fuhrman tapes and get involved with him later when Fuhrman insinuated himself into the Moxley case?

He wrote about it.  http://www.vanityfai...urder-greenwich

 

It's a good read, but read the whole thing to really understand.  That's why I'm not putting in excerpts, because out of context, they don't really explain it well.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Umbelina

[Simon Boccanegra]

Thanks for that, Umbelina. For whatever reason, your link, which looks quite sound, keeps redirecting to this page for me (that is, the second page of the "Juice Is Loose" thread), but I found it easily by Googling "Vanity Fair murder Greenwich." It was the first hit. So, that is a workaround if anyone else is having the same problem, and it is worth reading.  

 

Alas, I cannot find video from this Larry King episode he mentions, in which Fuhrman "wiped the floor" with F. Lee Bailey. I'd like to see that. I assume it's related to the below, but probably was a follow-up episode, because Dunne strongly implies they actually interacted.  

 

http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/21/furman/

 

"Also during the show, Bailey said Simpson had taken a polygraph test but the results were kept at attorney Robert Shapiro's home." Well, now we know how that turned out! 

Edited March 31, 2016 by Simon Boccanegra

[Umbelina]

There are a surprising number of Larry King's nightly TV shows about the OJ case up on You Tube.  I'm not sure, but I think back then there were limits on how long uploaded videos could be, so many are chopped up into segments, but if you look around you may be able to find it.

 

One that is definitely up is when King is interviewing either Cochran or Shapiro (mind's a blank) and OJ calls in unexpectedly.  You can watch the lawyer sweat.  Actually he may have done it a few times, so perhaps there is video of both attorney's on the show and OJ calling in.  ;)

Edited April 1, 2016 by Umbelina

[GHScorpiosRule]

I've always wondered why OJ didn't get Cochan or Shapiro to defend him during the civil case. Is it because they were strictly criminal defense attorneys?

[Simon Boccanegra]

Shapiro was done with the whole affair after the criminal trial. He sent up all sorts of signals, from his post-verdict interviews (e.g., "dealt the race card from the bottom of the deck") to his advising Chris Myers of ESPN not to give OJ a one-hour forum on Up Close ("Anything connected with OJ is bad news"). Even during the trial, Shapiro was increasingly worried about his standing in the eyes of the Los Angeles elite...which OJ had been but no longer was. To have the kind of career he had enjoyed and still wanted to enjoy, it behooved him to put some distance there. I don't think he ever foresaw it becoming what it became.  

 

Cochran's firm was still involved behind the scenes, but Cochran had handpicked Robert Baker for lead attorney in the civil case. Bailey, Scheck, Neufeld, Uelman, and Dershowitz all contributed to the civil-case defense too, although Bailey's own legal problems resulted in his partner Daniel Leonard replacing him.   

Edited April 1, 2016 by Simon Boccanegra

[GHScorpiosRule]

Again, thank you, Simon!  Yeah, I figured after I typed that, that Shapiro wouldn't go near OJ again after what happened during the criminal trial.

[psychoticstate]

Before the police chase in the white Bronco, I liked OJ Simpson. He was very charming on television and I never heard the media say anything negative about him. When the news said that his wife was brutally murdered, my first thought was, "Oh, no. Poor O.J." I was so dumb.

 

No, you weren't.  Many people initially believed in Simpson's innocence based on the persona they thought they knew.

 

Daniel Petrocelli, Fred Goldman's civil attorney, said in his book that when he first met Simpson at a deposition, Simpson was charming, put his hand out and Petrocelli automatically shook it.  Only after did he realize that he was shaking the very hand that murdered his client's son.

[Spartan Girl]

I think last night's finale proved that there is a price to every victory. And OJ learned the hard way that getting away with murder still costs you dearly.

Happy to see the photo of real OJ being in jail as one of the last images of the series at the end. Literally let out a big fat "Ha-Ha!" at the TV....only to go "Oh shit" at the note that he's eligible for parole next year. Though it's doubtful he'll get it.

[Finnegan]

This is interesting. When OJ is describing visiting Nicole's body at her funeral, he talks about feeling "remorse", twice. That's quite the Freudian slip.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a7sZANE9aXw

Is it true there was only the single incident (1989) of physical violence?

[psychoticstate]

This is interesting. When OJ is describing visiting Nicole's body at her funeral, he talks about feeling "remorse", twice. That's quite the Freudian slip.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a7sZANE9aXw

Is it true there was only the single incident (1989) of physical violence?

 

There was the incident in 1993 when Nicole was living on Gretna Green.  The 911 call was the one played in the media, where Nicole told the operator that Simpson was going to beat the shit out of her and you can hear him yelling in the background. 

 

Nicole claimed the LAPD was called 7 or 8 times.  It's possible they were and it's possible there were no reports because the LAPD did nothing.

 

The 1989 incident was the infamous New Year's Eve event, where Simpson was allowed to stomp off and drive away in his car.  That was when the photos that were shown to the jury were taken.

 

Nicole's former roommate stated that it was common during the early days of her relationship with Simpson for her to have bruises and/or a black eye and that she had access to stage makeup and became adept at applying it so no one knew.  He stated the first time that Simpson struck her he felt so badly about it that he gifted her with a Ferrari.  He also stated that the first night they went out, Nicole returned home with torn jeans, where Simpson had ripped the zipper off.

[Finnegan]

Thanks psychoticstate. I believe the other calls to LAPD must not have been recorded...in the 1993 recording, she mentions that they had been out there "many times".

I was watching post-trial interviews with OJ all night, and I think the series -- and Toobin's book -- really got him wrong. Toobin emphasizes that OJ was not that bright: could barely read, could only understand the case in football metaphors, poor vocabulary, etc. And that was reflected in the series, where CGJ played OJ as arrogant and superficially charming but pretty dumb. The OJ in post-trial interviews seems, I hate to say it, quite intelligent, even eloquent and persuasive. He seems to have a very good legal grasp of the case and even the finer emotional aspects of his ordeal. That did not come through at all in the series, which characterized him as a dumb jock.

[lovinbob]

I just keep thinking about Sydney and Justin, growing up without a mother and with a father who may have killed her. God, how damaging that is. My heart breaks thinking about it.

[DangerousMinds]

I know. When I was in therapy (for myself, obviously) a couple years after the verdicts, I found myself discussing Sydney and Justin and my pain thinking about them.

[suomi]

Thanks psychoticstate. I believe the other calls to LAPD must not have been recorded...in the 1993 recording, she mentions that they had been out there "many times".

I was watching post-trial interviews with OJ all night, and I think the series -- and Toobin's book -- really got him wrong. Toobin emphasizes that OJ was not that bright: could barely read, could only understand the case in football metaphors, poor vocabulary, etc. And that was reflected in the series, where CGJ played OJ as arrogant and superficially charming but pretty dumb. The OJ in post-trial interviews seems, I hate to say it, quite intelligent, even eloquent and persuasive. He seems to have a very good legal grasp of the case and even the finer emotional aspects of his ordeal. That did not come through at all in the series, which characterized him as a dumb jock.

 

I think any eloquence was the result of a narcissist immersing himself in details and aspects while he was in jail, when he literally had nothing else to do. I would compare it to memorizing a script in one year instead of one week. Because ... it was well known among his closest friends and professional colleagues that his ego took quite a blow when his political and professional aspirations came to nothing. He seriously thought he would become an elected official, a California state senator. He did plenty of meeting and greeting with Those In Charge and thought they would agree to support him, which they didn't. His sports broadcasting career was OK but not stellar and was largely based on a glib personality. He had the technical goods, and knew football inside out, but lacked ease with grammar, vocabulary and syntax. I like your term "finer emotional aspects" but I think if he was well-versed in those it was a reflection of what he noticed in/heard from others and not something he came up with on his own. I will give him persuasive; his LAPD jailers really enjoyed their afternoon in his Brentwood pool three days after the verdict.

This is interesting. When OJ is describing visiting Nicole's body at her funeral, he talks about feeling "remorse", twice. That's quite the Freudian slip.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a7sZANE9aXw

Is it true there was only the single incident (1989) of physical violence?

 

Nicole's friends said that, while he was pawing her clothing at the viewing, they heard him say "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry."

[psychoticstate]

Thanks psychoticstate. I believe the other calls to LAPD must not have been recorded...in the 1993 recording, she mentions that they had been out there "many times".

I was watching post-trial interviews with OJ all night, and I think the series -- and Toobin's book -- really got him wrong. Toobin emphasizes that OJ was not that bright: could barely read, could only understand the case in football metaphors, poor vocabulary, etc. And that was reflected in the series, where CGJ played OJ as arrogant and superficially charming but pretty dumb. The OJ in post-trial interviews seems, I hate to say it, quite intelligent, even eloquent and persuasive. He seems to have a very good legal grasp of the case and even the finer emotional aspects of his ordeal. That did not come through at all in the series, which characterized him as a dumb jock.

 

 

I think any eloquence was the result of a narcissist immersing himself in details and aspects while he was in jail, when he literally had nothing else to do. I would compare it to memorizing a script in one year instead of one week. Because ... it was well known among his closest friends and professional colleagues that his ego took quite a blow when his political and professional aspirations came to nothing. He seriously thought he would become an elected official, a California state senator. He did plenty of meeting and greeting with Those In Charge and thought they would agree to support him, which they didn't. His sports broadcasting career was OK but not stellar and was largely based on a glib personality. He had the technical goods, and knew football inside out, but lacked ease with grammar, vocabulary and syntax. I like your term "finer emotional aspects" but I think if he was well-versed in those it was a reflection of what he noticed in/heard from others and not something he came up with on his own. I will give him persuasive; his LAPD jailers really enjoyed their afternoon in his Brentwood pool three days after the verdict.

 

Nicole's friends said that, while he was pawing her clothing at the viewing, they heard him say "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry."

 

I agree with suomi.  Narcissists (and sociopaths) are very good at mimicking acceptable and preferred behaviors.   I don't think Simpson was stupid but I would say he was far more street smart than book smart.  Other than his athletic abilities, his greatest asset was his public persona, which he was very good at putting forward.  

 

A good point on this is what Daniel Petrocelli said in his book.  He said that he was able to trip up Simpson during the depositions in part because Simpson has memorized details and recountings.  When he was able to spit them back, uninterrupted or challenged, he was fine.  But when Petrocelli changed the subject and then went back to ask the same question again, Simpson got easily confused.  This isn't an attack on his intelligence but rather to show that Simpson was repeating a script for the most part.   And I've said this before but to show how charming and personable Simpson could be, Petrocelli shook his hand upon first meeting him, when Simpson smiled and introduced himself.  Afterward he realized that he had just shaken the very hand that had murdered his client's son.  Sobering. 

 

ETA:  It was also reported that Simpson told Nicole's mother Juditha that he loved her too much.  Seems an unusual thing to say at a viewing or funeral.  Wouldn't you say you loved her?  She was a great mother?  Or even that you were going to find who did this to her?  

Edited April 8, 2016 by psychoticstate

[GHScorpiosRule]

 When he was able to spit them back, uninterrupted or challenged, he was fine.  But when Petrocelli changed the subject and then went back to ask the same question again, Simpson got easily confused.  

 

psychoticstate, I think you mean unchallenged, correct?

[psychoticstate]

 

psychoticstate, I think you mean unchallenged, correct?

 

Yes, I did - - my fingers got ahead of my mind!  Thanks, GHScorpiosRule! 

[kathe5133]

First of all, I haven't watched this series. I don't have a TV and watch all my television on the Internet. It can be purchased on iTunes or Amazon (can't remember which one) for $29.00. I know in a couple of weeks it will most likely be free for Hulu subscribers so........ I lived through the murders, Bronco chase, and trial so reading these posts has been almost like watching it.

Now there is an upcoming "Made in America" series about OJ. I know all of you will be all over that!

My take away is this: A lot of people, from the Goldmans to the Browns, Kardashians, Marcia Clark, Chris Darden, Johnny Cochran and the average white or black person in the world, lives' were forever changed by this incident. Some got richer, some got wiser, some will live forever with a knot in their stomachs and a lump in their throats that will never go away. But none of these people did anything to cause that. But OJ. His life is forever changed and I think we can agree, not for the better. And he's the only one who did it to himself.

Life in prison would be a punishment, but I like that he's in jail on an unrelated charge. I like that he has to go before a payroll board every few years and plead for release. Even if he is released. There won't be any more movie offers. He will pay full price to rent a car from Hertz. The life he enjoyed, but never fully appreciated is gone. He's fat and crippled. Perhaps he'll try to justify it as everyone is out to get him. Ok asshole, everyone is out to get you. So? As Americans we disdain "cruel and unusual punishment". But, we didn't have to do a thing. We can just watch his life as it careens out of control for our own amusement. It IS a cruel and unusual punishment and I love it! I hope the Goldmans and Browns can find some solace knowing that the beast who murdered their love ones will never again know true peace.

[Finnegan]

I think any eloquence was the result of a narcissist immersing himself in details and aspects while he was in jail, when he literally had nothing else to do. I would compare it to memorizing a script in one year instead of one week. Because ... it was well known among his closest friends and professional colleagues that his ego took quite a blow when his political and professional aspirations came to nothing. He seriously thought he would become an elected official, a California state senator. He did plenty of meeting and greeting with Those In Charge and thought they would agree to support him, which they didn't. His sports broadcasting career was OK but not stellar and was largely based on a glib personality. He had the technical goods, and knew football inside out, but lacked ease with grammar, vocabulary and syntax. I like your term "finer emotional aspects" but I think if he was well-versed in those it was a reflection of what he noticed in/heard from others and not something he came up with on his own. I will give him persuasive; his LAPD jailers really enjoyed their afternoon in his Brentwood pool three days after the verdict.

Nicole's friends said that, while he was pawing her clothing at the viewing, they heard him say "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry."

Do you think he's more of a narcissist or a sociopath? Who would be more likely to feel sorry for his actions?

I wish we'd seen more of this manipulative, actor side in the series. I don't think OJ is a great intellect or anything, but I think he's definitely smart enough to articulate a convincing self-defence, and to fake self awareness. That's scarier to me than a dumb jock committing a crime of passion, so I wish we'd seen that.

Another thing I noticed in the post trial interviews is that OJ always brings up how other people go to him for advice: Nicole, his kids, his friends, other prisoners after the 2008 conviction. Being a sage advice giver seems to be an important part of his self perception. I'm not sure why but this seems important to his pathology.

[Spartan Girl]

He's a narcissist AND a sociopath.

I really hope he doesn't get out. He did this particular crime, even if he was "not guilty" of murder, so he should do the time regardless. And he doesn't have much of a life waiting on the other side IMO.

Is it weird how after the show, I did feel a little bad for his mother? Even if she was in denial as much as his other worshippers, you can't really expect a mother to accept the truth. She seemed like such a frail little old lady. If she did have any inkling of what he did, even if she'd never be able to admit it to herself, it probably killed her.

Then again, I feel worse for both sets of his kids.

[Finnegan]

It's completely understandable to feel bad for OJ's mother. She didn't do anything, and her life was turned upside down by the murders too. She lost a daughter-in-law, her grandkids lost their mother, and the son she adored was put on trial and disgraced for life.

[shang yiet]

I don't believe OJ has had a moment's peace since the killings. He was ostracized, I bet that stung. His career was over, period. He had to move about every day knowing everyone knew he was a murderer, everyone whispering behind his back. I wonder how many friends he kept.