S04.E11: A.W.O.L.

[Guest]

After I watched the episode again (yes, it was good enough for second viewing!) I do have a bit of an issue with how Felicity's story felt wrapped up. While I sometimes appreciate this show's ability to power through story, some things need time to breathe and I think maybe it would have been better and more realistic for Felicity to not have pulled herself together so much? 

 

I really loved what they did with the hallucinations and I loved how that gave us Felicity's POV for the first time in ages (s3 was so frustrating in that regard because we never knew what she was thinking/feeling) but I wouldn't have minded if she turned up at the lair in the same clothes she was wearing at the loft, a bit disheveled, hair still down, pulling herself together because that's what she does but still not 100%. Not much needed to even change, she still could have given a great speech to Oliver but maybe acknowledge that she's still got a lot to get used to and that's okay?

 

It's just a minor thing and doesn't ruin my enjoyment of the episode at all. Just sometimes this show needs to know when to slow down on certain plot lines.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Guest

[Carrie Ann]

So Rubicon is bound to come up sooner or later. The only question is whether it will be this season or they will save it for the next. I'd say time is short this year, but they've now connected Oliver, the Diggles, Shadowspire, ARGUS and Darhk, so I wouldn't rule it out completely. Though I forgot to comment on it earlier, I was blown away by Lyla being willing to give the codes to save Dig. Plus, her knowing the codes really does indicate that she has top level clearing. And simultaneously confirms my belief that Waller is incompetent. Lyla's been gone for nearing a year now and the codes haven't been changed? Come on, now! Plus, Waller totally painted a target on Lyla with her "Agent Michaels is my most trusted operative". It can't have been by accident, but I'm not really sure why she did it.

 

Two things: I think Lyla only moved to give up the codes once Dig gave her a very significant look and said, "Do it." AMA did a nice job conveying that she'd perceived some message in that because her face and body language completely changed. I think she knew he was working some plan, because he would never tell her to give up Rubicon. Also, I think it's very possible that Lyla is going to be tapped to take over ARGUS now, and we got that dialogue from Waller as a lead-in to that move. Just a guess.

 

And you know what else? This director steered clear of the usual style of let's cut the scene 15 seconds before we should, instead letting them breathe. It took me a while to figure out that this is something that really helped me enjoy the episode.

 

I thought the direction of this episode was pretty stellar, and I was pleased to see that the director was a woman, and this was her first episode of Arrow. I hope they bring her back, because I really appreciated all of her touches, from the shot-framing to the clarity of the fight scenes. 

[Chaser]

The Oliver and Laurel scene. I understand what they were going for with that in terms of placing Laurel in a supportive role and I thought KC was fine. I think what threw me off was that they tried to qualify her for the position by bring up that they used to date and being able to understand him in the moment. This kind of falls apart for me because the Oliver Queen dating Felicity is not the Ollie Queen who dated Laurel Lance. Everything shown about those relationships says they were vastly different. The Oliver who beats himself and takes responsibilities for others is very much in line who he became after the island. I can't see Ollie beating himself up over his actions with Laurel. He seemed to be quite comfortable in screwing her over. Frankly if he was beating himself up over something with Laurel he probably should because it's probably his fault.

 

It would have played a lot better for me if Laurel was like "WOW Felicity was right you really do beat yourself up over things that aren't your fault. Cause this is not your fault." If they wanted to reference that their history I would have made it a joke. "If you want me to list stuff that is your fault, I can. I've know you for xx years. It's a long list."

 

I get what they were trying to do though and I didn't find the scene bad. Laurel being in the background and supportive works a lot better than other versions, other then a minor ugh face delivering the Felicity line, KC was fine. To be fair though, it was kind of a clunky line.

 

I already mentioned my issues with Oliver and his plotty time travel mention.

 

Someone mentioned using Laurel in that cop scene instead of Lance. They ignored Laurel Lawyer at the beginning of the season, but have mentioned it for the past three episodes in a row. 4x09 - Laurel is in the office working the tip line. 4x10 - DA Lance and Anarky 4-11 ADA Lance at the crime scene. I think it's ground work.

[blixie]

 

While I sometimes appreciate this show's ability to power through story, some things need time to breathe and I think maybe it would have been better and more realistic for Felicity to not have pulled herself together so much?

 

First I disagree for two reasons within the episode the emotional moments were allowed to breathe, they did not rush past them. Second they never had nor plan to have any real investment in paralyzed Felicity and like the AV Club I'm glad they just admitted that here with the HELLOOO MAGIC reminder. The very last thing I want to watch is Arrow's version of the Waterdance or Born on the Fourth of July, I'm so glad she just pulled it together and is a  highly functioning paraplegic in two weeks.

Edited January 28, 2016 by blixie

[Guest]

First I disagree for two reasons within the episode the emotional moments were allowed to breathe, they did not rush past them. Second they never had nor plan to have any real investment in paralyzed Felicity and like the AV Club I'm glad they just admitted that here with the HELLOOO MAGIC reminder. The very last thing I want to watch is Arrow's version of the Waterdance or Born on the Fourth of July, I'm so glad she just pulled it together and is a  highly functioning paraplegic in two weeks.

 

I never said the moments didn't have room to breathe in this episode. I said moments in Arrow in general need more room to breathe. I wasn't asking for her to be a complete mess, just maybe not have it so pulled together within the same episode. I think she could have been allowed another week to have a bit of a struggle. But if it stops people complaining about Felicity, then I guess it's a good thing she powered through. 

[arjumand]

As a long-time sci fi watcher, I find this "The timeline wants to reassert itself" UNBELIEVABLY silly. Time is not sentient. It's not like "Hey, aholes, how dare you mess with my plan!" I mean, make it fate or something, but time ain't got time for that silliness.

 

Also, in that case they should all die, except Barry. So it either reasserts itself or it doesn't. 

 

Has our favourite slightly dim-witted vigilante tried that line on Felicity yet? I might have missed it through fast-forwarding through the flashbacks (I'm sorry, but I so don't care about Andy Diggle). Because we might actually get a Terminator quote in response to that bs (and by that I mean Terminator 2, the only Terminator sequel).

 

But as it was Barry Allen, the one who knows all, who spoke it, I suppose we're going to have to think of Time as some sentient thing chasing them. Like, whatevs. It's the reason I could never get into the Final Destination movies - Dear whoever came up with the concept: you know Death has no reason to chase us, right?

 

Re. the episode. I'm trying hard to like it, is all I can say. I never liked Waller, but killing off another strong woman character? And a POC at that? Ugh. I really don't care about Andy, and I too am expecting a "curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal" moment.

 

To be really, really honest, I don't like the acting choices made by SA in this episode, especially during the three's company scenes in the loft. And the whole paralysis storyline taints everything it touches, for me, in my opinion (one of my favourite minor characters on tv is a judge on The Good Wife who makes everyone say in my opinion after they make any sort of statement. That woman is awesome).

[KenyaJ]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but Laurel actually looked pretty good boxing. Solid punches, good stance. Didn't even need a stunt double, I think.

 

Yep. She looked fine. It just made me laugh that we've been hearing about this scene for months (and it was hotly anticipated by some) and it lasted all of 4 seconds. I was expecting Oliver/Sara or Oliver/Diggle level sparring, for all the hype. Oh well. I'm sure the sparring, as filmed, was more impressive. 

[Chris24601]

Yup, that's what I'm now thinking as well. Oliver legit brought up *time travel* as what's freaking him out, not the fact that he's not telling anyone about the demon spawn. Not that I trust this show in any way, but that was so completely random that it's gotta mean something.

Please let it mean that Laurel's gonna die in a hideous accident as she attempts to give herself superspeed, hoping to undo all her past mistakes...

Laurel: "Random assortment chemicals? Check. Electricity? Check. Superspeed time travel and Mrs. Oliver Queen here I come!"

News Anchor: "... and in other news, ADA was found dead in apparent suicide after dousing herself in a variety of toxic chemicals and jumping onto the third rail of the Star City Metro Line."

Ollie: "This is all my fault..."

Rip Hunter: "Fixed point in history, mate. Nothing you could have done... Now get back to your woman, grandpa isn't going to concieve himself."

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Arrow Sees Double
Felicity has a personality crisis, while John and Andy Diggle reach an understanding.

[looptab]

Though to be fair, I was actually thinking Oliver was referring to something else with this happening being his fault. I only saw the crossover once so correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Barry finally advise him to tell Felicity the truth, otherwise it would be messing with the timeline since she found out in the original one? So I took it as Oliver maybe interpreting that as having some sort of butterfly effect that led to the shooting and Felicity being wounded. He even scoffed at Barry's idea that the universe didn't care about what he told his girlfriend. And I guess now I read it as him possibly thinking, Oh my God! Does the universe care?!

 

That's how I read it as well. What was the other interpretation? 

 

Yup, that's what I'm now thinking as well. Oliver legit brought up *time travel* as what's freaking him out, not the fact that he's not telling anyone about the demon spawn. Not that I trust this show in any way, but that was so completely random that it's gotta mean something.

I'm not sure I got your point. Do you mean he is not freaking out about the kid at all, or at that particular moment? Because, at that point, I can see him thinking, "I messed up last month, this is the price I'm paying". Didn't seem that random. (Well, it was random in that he chose to start talking about it-but not that he would think it, IMO). Could you expand what you meant? :)

 

To be really, really honest, I don't like the acting choices made by SA in this episode, especially during the three's company scenes in the loft. And the whole paralysis storyline taints everything it touches, for me, in my opinion (one of my favourite minor characters on tv is a judge on The Good Wife who makes everyone say in my opinion after they make any sort of statement. That woman is awesome).

What didn't you like?

 

@Chaser, you wrote my thoughts on that scene exactly.

Edited January 28, 2016 by looptab

[calliope1975]

Ok, so it's clear that every single writer and director have chosen to ignore the Baby Mama storyline UNTIL they're forced to acknowledge it in their episode (and with good reason). We don't see Oliver making dramatic faces whenever lying/secrets come up, we see him growing and being supportive and for me, it's weird but I haven't seen them build up to this huge fall out that Oliver and Felicity are supposedly going to have. Maybe it's just me, but I feel like there has to be more to their supposed break-up than the lie coming out, or else everything they've been doing with these two don't make as much sense.

 

It is weird that there has been zero mention of the BMD, not that I mind too much. I'd still be fine if it was never, ever mentioned again, but I can't have nice things. I actually thought Oliver was going to have a reaction to lying to Felicity in that last scene on the bed, but then it didn't go in that direction.

 

Oliver does compartmentalize and he seems to forget a lot of stuff. Maybe he won't remember he has a kid until it's brought up again. 

[Chaser]

@ Looptab. You're welcome. 

 

I think I'm always going to be bitter about the writers not taking advantage of Oliver and Laurel's terrible history and KC ability to be snide to make Laurel snarky as hell over their past. Her making fun of what a terrible awful person he seemed to be pre-island would have been fun. 

Edited January 28, 2016 by Chaser

[blixie]

Part of me admires that Guggenheim and Mericle have given up pretending that they care if anyone cares, and are just conceding that all their plot points are just plot points and aren't meant to tell us anything about the characters who are subjected to them.

[looptab]

Oliver's been hit on the head one time too many, that's why he forgets things.

Edited January 28, 2016 by looptab

[nksarmi]

The Oliver and Laurel scene. I understand what they were going for with that in terms of placing Laurel in a supportive role and I thought KC was fine. I think what threw me off was that they tried to qualify her for the position by bring up that they used to date and being able to understand him in the moment. This kind of falls apart for me because the Oliver Queen dating Felicity is not the Ollie Queen who dated Laurel Lance. Everything shown about those relationships says they were vastly different. The Oliver who beats himself and takes responsibilities for others is very much in line who he became after the island. I can't see Ollie beating himself up over his actions with Laurel. He seemed to be quite comfortable in screwing her over. Frankly if he was beating himself up over something with Laurel he probably should because it's probably his fault.

 

It would have played a lot better for me if Laurel was like "WOW Felicity was right you really do beat yourself up over things that aren't your fault. Cause this is not your fault." If they wanted to reference that their history I would have made it a joke. "If you want me to list stuff that is your fault, I can. I've know you for xx years. It's a long list."

 

I get what they were trying to do though and I didn't find the scene bad. Laurel being in the background and supportive works a lot better than other versions, other then a minor ugh face delivering the Felicity line, KC was fine. To be fair though, it was kind of a clunky line.

 

I already mentioned my issues with Oliver and his plotty time travel mention.

 

Someone mentioned using Laurel in that cop scene instead of Lance. They ignored Laurel Lawyer at the beginning of the season, but have mentioned it for the past three episodes in a row. 4x09 - Laurel is in the office working the tip line. 4x10 - DA Lance and Anarky 4-11 ADA Lance at the crime scene. I think it's ground work.

 

I know a lot of people here don't like Laurel and don't want to see her be bitchy, but if she had said this I would have laughed so hard I might have missed everything that followed. 

 

And if she had started that list with letting MM live - I might have actually started liking her again instead of just being apathetic about her.

[dtissagirl]

I'm not sure I got your point. Do you mean he is not freaking out about the kid at all, or at that particular moment? Because, at that point, I can see him thinking, "I messed up last month, this is the price I'm paying". Didn't seem that random. (Well, it was random in that he chose to start talking about it-but not that he would think it, IMO). Could you expand what you meant? :)

 

I honestly have NO IDEA if Oliver is freaking out about the kid or not. That I don't know. But he seems to be connecting the time travel shenanigans -- of which he only has secondhand knowledge from the world's least reliable narrator ever Barry Allen -- to the crap that's happened since. They cheated death when Barry erased the original timeline, Oliver thinks he fucked up changing the timeline [wrt to Felicity knowing about the kid? Unclear], so now they're paying the price, Final Destination style.

 

It's convoluted as fuck, but that's what I got. And I thought the time travel thing was random because at no point prior to this I thought it was a concern of Oliver's. I thought lying about the demon spawn would be a concern. But now he's talking about time traveling, and not making any kind of hint about the kid whatsoever, so I had that switched.

[Lady Calypso]

It is weird that there has been zero mention of the BMD, not that I mind too much. I'd still be fine if it was never, ever mentioned again, but I can't have nice things. I actually thought Oliver was going to have a reaction to lying to Felicity in that last scene on the bed, but then it didn't go in that direction.

 

Oliver does compartmentalize and he seems to forget a lot of stuff. Maybe he won't remember he has a kid until it's brought up again. 

 

So true. Honestly, at this point, because BMD has become this annoying little plot in the background, they kind of have to mention it. It was better when BMD wasn't part of any storyline and it was part of the past. However, now it's part of the present storyline, and we know it has to do with the future storyline too, so by not mentioning it, we're always wondering and always questioning why they haven't mentioned it. I've become judgemental because whatever Oliver says now to Felicity, that stupid BMD is nagging me, saying 'Oh, Oliver is keeping this HUGE SECRET which is going to backfire'. 

 

I'd rather it didn't exist at all, but the moment they made it part of the present day storyline, them not mentioning it has become moot. Let's say BMD didn't exist and that crossover didn't happen with that plot. We would be much, much happier, Oliver/Felicity would most likely not be broken up in the flashforward (because let's face it, that would be one of the only plausible reasons for Felicity not to have her ring on) and we'd probably be more invested in this Felicity-is-paralyzed storyline. 

 

Blah, so even with all of the cuteness in this episode, I can't fully enjoy it BECAUSE OF THE STUPID EFFING BMD and it's all Guggie's fault for that. He ruined my enjoyment for Olicity this season and I hate him for it. I mean, I still love Olicity, but it's less than what it was before the crossover. 

[tarotx]

Which reminds me that when I rewatched the scene and then the Sara&Laurel Sparing scene, I couldn't help but think that Oliver should have been sparing with Sara. Sara is a girl you can talk too. I mean she is a former bartender. She "dated" both Ollie and Oliver. She seems like she was a good friend to felicity in the short amount of time. She is the one who needed Time travel actually exist info. That is the LOT set up we needed on Arrow. Oh well but part of me feels like the telling of Laurel was done for the LOT scene anyway.  I really think that is the only reason time travel was mentioned to her. Maybe at first LOT was going to premiere today as a two hour event?

Yep. She looked fine. It just made me laugh that we've been hearing about this scene for months (and it was hotly anticipated by some) and it lasted all of 4 seconds. I was expecting Oliver/Sara or Oliver/Diggle level sparring, for all the hype. Oh well. I'm sure the sparring, as filmed, was more impressive. 

Edited January 28, 2016 by tarotx

[Carrie Ann]

I feel like I should mention, since I ding the writers constantly for screwing up the nuance of scenes/dialogue (usually by making things too broad or overly dramatic), that I thought Oliver's dialogue in that last scene was exactly right. Starting by saying that he heard the doctors' diagnosis and that it's not "healthy or productive" for either of them to live in denial was perfect for what came after, because it made clear that he wasn't being willfully naive or blindly optimistic about her prognosis, and it took any pressure off of Felicity to sort of play into that. And it made it clear that he WAS being realistic; that he understands the current science and medical advances, but that those don't always seem to apply anymore. Given that weird reality, his last line about searching for a way to make her walk again was pretty awesome, because it's not just flowery claptrap. In four or five lines, they managed to convey so much about that character and relationship, and put a nice stamp on where they are with this storyline, as well as pointing the way forward. Props to the writers of this episode for putting that extra ounce of effort into the dialogue that some of their colleagues can't be bothered to do.

[paigow]

If Malcolm can reconstitute bad guys from dust, curing Felicity should be relatively easy.

[looptab]

I honestly have NO IDEA if Oliver is freaking out about the kid or not. That I don't know. But he seems to be connecting the time travel shenanigans -- of which he only has secondhand knowledge from the world's least reliable narrator ever Barry Allen -- to the crap that's happened since. They cheated death when Barry erased the original timeline, Oliver thinks he fucked up changing the timeline [wrt to Felicity knowing about the kid? Unclear], so now they're paying the price, Final Destination style.

 

It's convoluted as fuck, but that's what I got. And I thought the time travel thing was random because at no point prior to this I thought it was a concern of Oliver's. I thought lying about the demon spawn would be a concern. But now he's talking about time traveling, and not making any kind of hint about the kid whatsoever, so I had that switched.

That's what I think he thinks, too. But it kinda makes sense that after that ominous warning from Barry, which he dismissed at first, that he would be thinking that Felicity's injury is a consequence of the time travel changes. I guess he is worried about the lie on the demon spawn (LOL) - I have to believe he is -  but maybe right now he is more torn about the tangible ramifications of his lie (Felicity's paralysis) rather than what effect the lie could have on his personal life? IDK, haha.

Thank you for answering :)

Edited January 28, 2016 by looptab

[nksarmi]

And while I know they didn't have Oliver articulate this - I think this is what he is thinking - because Felicity didn't find out the kid and break up with him (per Barry's horrible observation and reporting skills) that's why she ended up getting shot.  Because, follow me here...

 

If Barry was right and Felicity dumps him when she finds out about the kid (Oliver should know that wasn't why Felicity dumped him and Mr. "this is why we ask questions" really should have drilled Barry more on exactly what he saw so Oliver could figure out what the hell happened, but I digress)....

 

Then Felicity and Oliver don't get engaged and Felicity isn't in Darhk's sites and isn't in the limo with him to get shot and paralyzed. 

 

So I can kind of see Oliver turning this around into being his fault because he is acting selfishly to prevent Felicity from breaking up with him.  And if they full explore this in the breakup stuff that happens later this season, I might be impressed.  But since Oliver hardly ever talks when Felicity is mad at him, I'm not sure any of this is going to come out.

 

Though I have to say that I really hope Felicity does learn ALL of the story so she can go kick Barry's ass for telling Oliver they break up and adding fuel to Oliver's natural tendency to fib his butt of anyway.  Barry shouldn't go around talking about how he can't mess with time or tell anyone about their futures/alternate futures and then tell someone about something he witnessed when he didn't even see the whole thing. That's just irresponsible.

[Lethal Huntress]

I loved everything about this episode! The focus on Diggle & Felicity was awesome. Hope we get more episodes like this. EBR was amazing from start to finish. Defintely the MVP of the episode. Don't have a problem with the codename just hate that it's the name of MG's book. The Olicity moments were A++++. Why can't we keep this. I hate MG. & we got a very sweet Delicity moment! Finally!

I liked the Diggle brothers. Before this episode I wasn't really sure I would. I loved the moment with Baby Sara at the end. So precious but I DON'T TRUST ANDY AT ALL!!! Something bad is going to happen.

I loved Laurel this episode. That's three episodes in a row. She looks really gorgeous in blue. & to my surprise she looked really great boxing. Nice arms! I also loved her reaction to finding out Barry could travel through time. Hilarious!

Gothlicity!!!!

[bijoux]

That's how I read it as well. What was the other interpretation? 

 

I got the impression from some posters here that they thought Oliver and the show were completely ignoring the screw up in the crossover. If I misread the posts, that's on me. I just wanted to say that I don't think that's what was going on. Now, would I rather Oliver had thought about the ramifications of his obfuscating like a sane person? Of course I would. But he is thinking about them in a convoluted Arrow logics way.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I know a lot of people here don't like Laurel and don't want to see her be bitchy, but if she had said this I would have laughed so hard I might have missed everything that followed. 

 

I don't like Laurel but I would love to see her bitchy (when it calls for it; still not a fan of how she handled those detectives at the crime scene. She could still have made them leave without treating them like crap) because that's playing to Katie Cassidy's acting strengths. If there's one situation that calls for bitchy, snarky Laurel, it's this — when she has to bring up her former romantic relationship with Oliver. 

[Guest]

That shot of Oliver putting an arrow through Diggle's handcuffs was amazing. I loved that whole fight scene in ARGUS actually, especially Lyla just repeatedly punching the guy in the head. LOL. More of that please!

[tennisgurl]

I am already calling Andy dying in a heroic sacrifice type deal, maybe saving baby Sara or something. He may or may not betray everyone before that. 

 

I also really liked the fact that they acknowledge the kind of world they live in now. There is magic and superpowers and dead people coming back every other week, Felicity getting the use of her legs back is far from far fetched. This is their new normal now. 

Edited January 28, 2016 by tennisgurl

[Guest]

I actually really want Andy to betray his brother in the end. I don't think everyone should be saved or redeemed. They can have their moments - just like Andy did in this episode - but I think I prefer the idea that being slightly bad is just who he is. That would mess with Diggle's head and be a challenge for him to deal with.

[nksarmi]

For me this show is dark enough.  I don't want Andy to betray Diggle but I don't need him living happily ever after either. I would take Andy joining ARGUS since he doesn't mind doing slightly off things anyway and he needs to redeem himself for his HIVE involvement. 

[johntfs]

The problem with Overwatch is that it's Guggie's freaking ego shining through because, he wrote an entire book called Overwatch.  I'm sure most people who aren't online and don't follow the EPs are cool with her name.  Which is totally fair, but it's just Guggie stroking his giant freaking ego, that's why I detest it.

 

A few years back on a Castle Halloween episode, Nathan Fillion dressed as a "space cowboy" by wearing his Mal Reynolds costume from Firefly.  My reaction was "Cool, it's Mal" and not "Ewwww, what a hideous huge ego!"  I'm okay with Guggenheim making a subtle nod to something else he did.  I wouldn't have known about the book if it hadn't been mentioned here.  Meanwhile, "Overwatch" is a decent code name for Felicity since Oracle is apparently "taken."

Edited January 28, 2016 by johntfs

[Guest]

For me this show is dark enough.  I don't want Andy to betray Diggle but I don't need him living happily ever after either. I would take Andy joining ARGUS since he doesn't mind doing slightly off things anyway and he needs to redeem himself for his HIVE involvement. 

 

 

Good point. Joining ARGUS could work because they clearly don't go by the book. But I also wouldn't mind if he wasn't redeemed. I don't need everything wrapped up in a neat and tidy bow like a lot of things on this show. But I appreciate the thought that this show is dark enough. LOL.

[statsgirl]

I really liked this episode. It was nice to get away from Damian Darhk and his evilness, the set-up for LoT, and non-stop fighting scenes in the dark.

I also appreciated having some time spent on Diggle and Felicity as characters FINALLY rather than just as props for Oliver, Thea and Laurel.

 

Most unfortunate line in the episode: "I'm your brother but I'm not build like you."  I know it was meant emotionally but given that Eugene Byrd barely comes up to DR's shoulder, all I can say is "yes".

 

Oliver:  Everything that's happening is my fault...."For the past month, I have been tortured by the idea that what happened to Felicity happened because I wouldn't listen to [barry]."  What struck me is that Oliver is still saying it's his fault, and the contrast to the flash forward at the grave where he says that he knows it's not his fault, it's his responsibility.  Good to know the boy can learn.  Also, good to have a timeline on when the episode is, which is almost caught up to present time.

 

Goth Felicity "People hide who they are."  A nice meta statement on all the masks and costumes on this show.

 

I liked Laurel's super fashionable workout clothes with matching earrings.  I admire accessorizing even when just working out.

 

Diggle's old army buddies are really scary people.  First Ted Gaynor, now Joiner. But it's a refreshing change from the fawning CBS does.

I assume that whoever was Waller's second-in=command has the Shadowspire agents locked up until he/she is told how to deal with them

 

 

So I get that Curtis was her driver, but how did Felicity get upstairs to change her clothes?  I suppose she might have still been flying on the third pain pill.  ;)

I wondered about that too but maybe she sent him up to get them. Good to know the loft has a main level bathroom though.

 

As for the storage, maybe they have two or three bedrooms so they store boxes there. Or maybe Felicity sent Oliver down to the basement of the building where the storage lockers are.

 

I have a question. What happened to all the A.R.G.U.S. agents who were there when Shadowspire came guns blazing? In the end there were Oliver, Lyla, Dig and Andy fighting Joyner and his crew. Did they put them in cells somewhere or was A.R.G.U.S. in their hands for a really long time if Joyner was taking them out at 20 minutes intervals?

I thought they had moved to a different room at that point but maybe not since there's a shortage of sets on this show..

[AyChihuahua]

Blah, so even with all of the cuteness in this episode, I can't fully enjoy it BECAUSE OF THE STUPID EFFING BMD and it's all Guggie's fault for that. He ruined my enjoyment for Olicity this season and I hate him for it. I mean, I still love Olicity, but it's less than what it was before the crossover. 

I think that's the main reason I am still not watching. This episode sounds great, and my #1 requirement, Felicity dumping Oliver, definitely seems to be on. But while I don't watch primarily for Olicity, watching all this cuteness bw them, that, FOR ME, is completely tainted by the lie, is worse than watching non-cute scenes not tainted by the lie. Like he's continuing to lie with every heart-eyed look, and I totally hate it. 

 

Also, Guggie. He's a talentless hack who screws up everything he touches. People are making a great point that there's been total silence on everything re BMD since 4.08, but in a way that makes it worse. It's going to be even weirder and more contrived, bc not only has groundwork NOT been laid, anti-groundwork HAS been laid.

 

Re the time travel discussion, isn't it totally possible that it was really just about LoT? I doubt when they filmed this they knew for sure when LoT would air.

 

Still find the idea that time wants to reassert itself UNBELIEVABLY silly. And if he thinks it's so bad for him to tell anyone about the changed timeline, him telling Laurel, for no discernible reason, is pretty bad.

[tarotx]

Nathan Fillion dressing up as Malcolm Reynolds might be fan service but he didn't create Mal. It's just a cute ;) for fans to enjoy. It's not the same as advertisement.

[looptab]

I got the impression from some posters here that they thought Oliver and the show were completely ignoring the screw up in the crossover. If I misread the posts, that's on me. I just wanted to say that I don't think that's what was going on. Now, would I rather Oliver had thought about the ramifications of his obfuscating like a sane person? Of course I would. But he is thinking about them in a convoluted Arrow logics way.

Got it ;) I thought I was missing something, haha.

[statsgirl]

I can understand Oliver blaming Felicity's paralysis on time travel rather than his lie about BM and William. While not nice, a lie is a lie and often people get away with it, Ollie certainly did. On the other hand, time travel and there being a price to pay for it is HUGE.  (But that just makes me wonder, if time travel messes things up, why is Laurel so okay with Sara doing it?)

Though to be fair, I was actually thinking Oliver was referring to something else with this happening being his fault. I only saw the crossover once so correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Barry finally advise him to tell Felicity the truth, otherwise it would be messing with the timeline since she found out in the original one? So I took it as Oliver maybe interpreting that as having some sort of butterfly effect that led to the shooting and Felicity being wounded. He even scoffed at Barry's idea that the universe didn't care about what he told his girlfriend. And I guess now I read it as him possibly thinking, Oh my God! Does the universe care?!

Nope,  all Barry told him was that Felicity found out about the kid and broke up with him so the second time, he didn't tell Felicity.  And that there is a price to pay for time travel.

 

IT'S ALL BARRY'S FAULT.

 

Contrary opinion, but I liked Laurel's scene with the cops.  It plays to what KC does best and besides, Laurel was right.  They hadn't canvassed the area, if they had, they wouldn't have left so fast.

 

I thought the direction of this episode was pretty stellar, and I was pleased to see that the director was a woman, and this was her first episode of Arrow. I hope they bring her back, because I really appreciated all of her touches, from the shot-framing to the clarity of the fight scenes. 

I hope she comes back and directs more episodes.  I know they're all in love with Bam-Bam directing but I enjoyed this episode much more.

 

She's directed some pretty well-known names in her resume like Christopher Walken, Jonathan Pryce, Rosanna Arquette, Peter Weller, Jurgen Prochnow, Carrie Fisher.

[Password]

I'm a little fuzzy on why some of us blame Barry for Oliver not telling Felicity about the child.

Why do we?

[bijoux]

I can understand Oliver blaming Felicity's paralysis on time travel rather than his lie about BM and William. While not nice, a lie is a lie and often people get away with it, Ollie certainly did. On the other hand, time travel and there being a price to pay for it is HUGE.  (But that just makes me wonder, if time travel messes things up, why is Laurel so okay with Sara doing it?)

Nope,  all Barry told him was that Felicity found out about the kid and broke up with him so the second time, he didn't tell Felicity.  And that there is a price to pay for time travel.

 

IT'S ALL BARRY'S FAULT.

Someone help me out here, but wasn't Oliver and Barry's last scene with the hug the one which included Barry advising Oliver to tell Felicity? And I don't really support the notion that Oliver puts it on the time travel since were it not for it everyone, Felicity included, would have been dead for the past month or so. So no time travel wouldn't have made things better than they are now.

[johntfs]

Nathan Fillion dressing up as Malcolm Reynolds might be fan service but he didn't create Mal. It's just a cute ;) for fans to enjoy. It's not the same as advertisement.

 

I think "advertisement" is going a little far.  It was a reference and to me a somewhat obscure one.  If not for this board, I'd have completely missed the reference.  Even with getting it, I have no desire to put "Overwatch" on my must read list.

 

And I'm not telling anyone what to write or care about.  My view is "if you don't want to be frustrated/angered by Guggenheim, don't care so much about him."  That said, as far as I'm concerned, everyone is completely free to invest or write as much about Guggenheim or anything else that they want.

 

On the actual episode, I thought Goth Felicity was adorable and as much of a mask as "Glasses" Felicity.  I also think the idea that Goth Felicity was "dark and edgy" as somewhat over-stating it.  She was more "the Girl with the (Henna) Dragon Tattoo" than anything.

[statsgirl]

I don't remember Barry telling Oliver to tell Felicity, but it's not an episode I would care to rewatch.

 

I don't think Oliver would see that without time travel, they would all be dead. That's pretty complex for Compartmentalizing Oliver.  What he sees is that there was time travel, Barry told him that there would be a price to pay for it, and now Felicity is paralysed.

 

ETA:  Goth Felicity was pretty angry and out for revenge, which is something I didn't see from her appearance last season.  I wonder if we'll find out it's because of her feelings about her father abandoning her and her mother being all blonde and sparkly.

Edited January 28, 2016 by statsgirl

[bethy]

Most unfortunate line in the episode: "I'm your brother but I'm not build like you."  I know it was meant emotionally but given that Eugene Byrd barely comes up to DR's shoulder, all I can say is "yes".

 

 

Ha! I had the exact same reaction. I was incredibly distracted by how small Eugene Byrd looks compared to David Ramsay. 

[bijoux]

I don't remember Barry telling Oliver to tell Felicity, but it's not an episode I would care to rewatch.

 

I don't think Oliver would see that without time travel, they would all be dead. That's pretty complex for Compartmentalizing Oliver.  What he sees is that there was time travel, Barry told him that there would be a price to pay for it, and now Felicity is paralysed.

Okay, Barry definitely told him that they all died and tied it to Oliver not being focused after the "break-up". Both of which were shit arguments but the point is Oliver was explicitly told and accepted that everyone dying was what happened. I don't understand what there is for him to see here.

[statsgirl]

Oliver takes responsibility for everything.  It was his responsibility that they all died because he wasn't focused after the break-up, therefore the need to re-set time was also his responsibility and anything that goes wrong from that re-set is again, his responsibility.

 

That's the way I see it at least.

 

Also contrary to what Barry said, a number of things went wrong that weren't Oliver's fault, including the oven mitts not working and Hawkman trying to help Hawkgirl and forcing her too hard instead of Cisco doing it. So Barry was wrong about that tool. See, it's all Barry's fault.

Edited January 28, 2016 by statsgirl

[calliope1975]

I'm a little fuzzy on why some of us blame Barry for Oliver not telling Felicity about the child.

Why do we?

 

 

Okay, Barry definitely told him that they all died and tied it to Oliver not being focused after the "break-up". Both of which were shit arguments but the point is Oliver was explicitly told and accepted that everyone dying was what happened. I don't understand what there is for him to see here.

 

I also think it wasn't clear, to me, that there was a break-up. There was a fight, and it seemed like Barry assumed there was a break-up which freaked Oliver out and made him stupid(er) and a lying liar who lies. Hence, if Barry had either kept his mouth shut or not been so adamant in relaying information he wasn't absolutely positive about, perhaps the BMD would be lessened. 

 

In short, Barry ruins everything.

[nksarmi]

I also think it wasn't clear, to me, that there was a break-up. There was a fight, and it seemed like Barry assumed there was a break-up which freaked Oliver out and made him stupid(er) and a lying liar who lies. Hence, if Barry had either kept his mouth shut or not been so adamant in relaying information he wasn't absolutely positive about, perhaps the BMD would be lessened. 

 

In short, Barry ruins everything.

 

Yes, it's not that the timeline where every died was better and Oliver isn't talking about paying a price for that.  It's that in timeline A - Felicity found out and Oliver thinks he got dumped.  In timeline B - Felicity doesn't know and they are together. 

 

Being with Oliver got Felicity shot and paralyzed so Oliver thinks by not telling her and staying together - she's paying the price for him changing their story (not the whole city's) so it's all his fault.

 

The problem is that Barry was probably wrong.  They probably weren't broken up.  Felicity was probably just raging and they would have made up.  And she still could have been shot.  But Oliver doesn't know that. 

 

And Barry - who is all I can't tell you too much - shouldn't tell anything he isn't 100% sure of.

 

All he needed to say was "everything went wrong - we need to do this a different way" before they faced Savage again.

 

 

Edited January 28, 2016 by nksarmi

[apinknightmare]

But even after Oliver spoke with Barry, it appears that he had the same convo with BM, wanting to tell Felicity, but she told him no because he was "already asking for the world." So it doesn't seem like Barry's thoughts on the matter figure into what Oliver's doing at all, since the way the second timeline's convo with BM was cut makes it clear they were the same in both timelines. 

Edited January 28, 2016 by apinknightmare

[dtissagirl]

For the sake of science, here's the actual lines from 408. Barry doesn't give Oliver any advice on whether or not to tell Felicity, he just asks Oliver whether he'll tell this time around. The advice Barry gives is about the demon spawn, that Oliver should be in his life.

 

First scene:

 

Barry: Ok, are you planning on giving me a hair sample to run forensics on in the near future?

Oliver: Yeah...

Barry: Well, I did. And you were pretty shaken after the fact. And then Felicity found out, and you guys had a pretty big fight, and it sounded like it was over between you two.

Oliver: What was the fight about?

Barry: I'm pretty sure you're someone's father, Oliver. So when we go up against Savage, you're not focused. And then, Kendra can't access her powers, and then the tech they're developing to counteract Savage's staff does not work, and... Everyone dies, Oliver.

Oliver: This time they won't. This time we do things differently.

 

Second scene:

 

Barry: Hey, Oliver, um, we need to have a difficult conversation, I think.

Oliver:About my son? God, it feels weird to say that.

Barry: Less about your son and more about whether or not you're going to tell Felicity about him.

Oliver: I don't think that's any of your business.

Barry: You know what, yeah, you're right, it's not really my business, except I told you, when I mess with time, time messes back. And we've already changed how things turned out with Savage, and I'm worried about temporal backlash.

Oliver: Wait, you think that the timeline cares about what I tell my girlfriend?

Barry: What are you going to tell her?

[pay attention to the evasion of an answer]

Oliver: Well, you're right when you say that the rules keep changing and that the lives that we lead, they make us feel... powerless. And it makes me wonder if... if William wouldn't be better off with my world kept separate from his.

Barry: Look, Oliver, take it from someone who didn't get to grow up with his father-- I think the best thing for William is for you to be a part of his life.

Oliver: Thanks, Barry.

Barry: Yeah.

[bijoux]

Barry is an emotional idiot with no idea of how adult relationships work. However, Oliver made his own decisions and bought into Barry's faulty reasoning and Barry, you guys actually made me go check, tried to warn Oliver about the dangers of messing with time at the end.

So I still think this part is what prompted Oliver to question things. Can we just talk about how great SA was tearing up?

[statsgirl]

Well, to be fair to Barry, the two most important relationships in his life are with Joe and whatever his real father's name is.  Three if you count his relationship with the first Wells.  Iris and Patty don't matter -- for Barry, all that counts is the father/son relationship.

 

Oliver really should have asked Felicity, someone who grew up without a father entirely.  If he hadn't listened to Barry....

[way2interested]

Can we just talk about how great SA was tearing up?

To semi-bring the conversation back to the episode, I did love how emotionally invested he was into Felicity's speech in 411. It's what he needed to hear from whom he wanted to hear. Even in an episode where the spotlight was on DR and EBR, SA still added a bunch of little things that made me like his moments as well.

 

I also kind of liked it how her speech also tied into what happened in 410, with the idea that they aren't doing this for glory or vengeance but for the fact that this is just what they do. Although this does further complicate whatever's going on in the upcoming months, I feel. In the past few episodes, they've continually showed that Oliver and Felicity can overcome challenges and insecurities and tragedies together as a couple. yet they are broken up for some reason. They've continually showed that Oliver and Felicity are doing the superhero work because they want to help people and do some good in the world, yet they are both gung-ho to murder the "him" for revenge (granted, that person just murdered someone, so it's slightly different in an emotional case, but 410 showed that Oliver's quest for revenge wasn't the right way to go logically).