S04.E11: A.W.O.L.

[Orion]

This could be one of the best episodes in several seasons.

 

Not just because of the characters that it focused on and developed (although that is a large part of it) but because for the first time in a while the sound mixing was great, the score didn't drown out dialogue, there were no mumbled lines, the fight scenes were crisp and clear and well choreographed, the directing and pacing were perfect - allowing time for each scene to breath and develop, and the flashbacks were packed full of new information that tied back into the current timeline. 

 

I normally would have been annoyed with hallucination Felicity and using a gimmick to give a character POV but for a storyline like Felicity's injury I think her feelings would have been intensely personal and I don't think Felicity speaking to another character about her concerns would have been half as fulfilling because no one else could directly relate to what she was going on in her mind in that moment. EBR also did a great job of selling those two very different personalities - different body language and posture along with her speaking at different speeds for each Felicity. She really did a good job.

 

This show can never have enough of Diggle. I can take Andy or leave him, although I have hope moving forward now that he is not confined in a cage and simply playing the douche to Diggle's good guy, I'll take any story that brings David Ramsey and his acting to the foreground. He made the flashbacks compelling and interesting. I also really enjoy the Dyla dynamic.

 

A few negatives (although they were minor this episode) I didn't like that at the end Felicity said she wasn't on pain medication. That line seemed to imply that once she got over her justifiable anger and upset at her injury she no longer need the pills. I was really happy at the beginning of the episode that they showed her needing medication for pain from her injuries, nice continuity that this was still effecting her and I didn't think that line at the end was needed.

 

I understood why Oliver was trying to be cheerful and make Felicity smile at the beginning but, and this could be me personally, but it reminded me of my husband joking around with me when I was in labor, I appreciate the distraction but I'm in pain and get to wallow in that for a time if I want to. Again that could just me my personal experience influencing my viewing.

 

I honestly don't understand why this show has Laurel bring up that she dated Oliver like that somehow informs on who he is now. Laurel, you dated him 8 years ago. Who he is and how he is in a relationship is not something that your past experience with him would have any connection.  The show keeps bringing this up through her dialogue. Last season when she told WildCat that she use to date him and the I don't know why I ever loved you line. I'm not who I was 8 years ago and I haven't been through a fraction of what Oliver was. It makes her appear clueless and trying to add an emotional intimacy which doesn't exist between those two. I almost feel bad for when she has say those lines. Oliver never brings that stuff up. Just let that relationship remain dead show stop dragging it back in the light like it's not something to be ashamed off.  

 

Good start at Delicity show but two sentences are not enough for me. More please.

 

Arrow you are so incredibly frustrating when you have episodes with character development and agency like this and  then have episodes like last week. But this week was so refreshing I'm going to let you drag me back in next week.

[lemotomato]

Now that I think about it, Laurel's advice to Oliver is interesting considering it's supposedly coming from her experience dating him. "Don't be so hard on yourself" might explain why she put up wih all his cheating and screwing up their relationship-- she never expected him to be better or try harder, so he never did.

[wonderwall]

I believe someone called this the notp face? :p

 

[Starfish35]

dtissagirl calls it "involuntary NOTP syndrome", which I love. :) KC does seem to have a bit of hard time with those type of lines - I noticed it last episode too, in the scene where Oliver says of Felicity "she's stronger than all of us."

I was thinking about this today, but to me KC plays Laurel as if she's still a little bit in love with Oliver, which I guess makes sense if KC herself is still wishing for Lauriver to come back. I wish they'd play it more as snarky exes, as someone said upthread, but to me, intentional or not, it comes across to me as Laurel still a bit in love with Oliver. She's happy for him and Felicity, but there's still a bit of her that is not over him yet.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Starfish35

[paigow]

 Meanwhile, "Overwatch" is a decent code name for Felicity since Oracle is apparently "taken."

Val Kilmer was in a David Mamet movie called Spartan [2004]... Derek Luke was his partner / apprentice assigned the Overwatch on an op.

[johntfs]

dtissagirl calls it "involuntary NOTP syndrome", which I love. :) KC does seem to have a bit of hard time with those type of lines - I noticed it last episode too, in the scene where Oliver says of Felicity "she's stronger than all of us."

I was thinking about this today, but to me KC plays Laurel as if she's still a little bit in love with Oliver, which I guess makes sense if KC herself is still wishing for Lauriver to come back. I wish they'd play it more as snarky exes, as someone said upthread, but to me, intentional or not, it comes across to me as Laurel still a bit in love with Oliver. She's happy for him and Felicity, but there's still a bit of her that is not over him yet.

 

NOTP = "Non-Organic Toilet Paper?"

 

Assuming that's Katie Cassidy's choice, I think it's a valid one.  Laurel connected with Oliver when he was a selfish, immature douchebag who feared commitment.  Towards the end of Season 1, she started to reconnect with him before Tommy's death scarred them both.  Now, two or three years later, Oliver has kind of "finished baking" and grown into a brave, loving, responsible man, the best version of himself.  And that best version of Oliver is with another woman.  I think Laurel wants Oliver and Felicity to be happy and for them to be happy together.  At the same time, though, it's not hard to understand why she might occasionally wonder and wish for "what might have been."

 

 

Val Kilmer was in a David Mamet movie called Spartan [2004]... Derek Luke was his partner / apprentice assigned the Overwatch on an op.

 

Yeah, sure, but Arrow takes place within the DC Universe.  They're not going to cramp their potential options by making Felicity "Oracle" just like they're not going to have a villain with sonar abilities and the ability to control certain types of nocturnal flying mammals be named "Batman."

[dtissagirl]

dtissagirl calls it "involuntary NOTP syndrome", which I love. :) KC does seem to have a bit of hard time with those type of lines - I noticed it last episode too, in the scene where Oliver says of Felicity "she's stronger than all of us."

I was thinking about this today, but to me KC plays Laurel as if she's still a little bit in love with Oliver, which I guess makes sense if KC herself is still wishing for Lauriver to come back. I wish they'd play it more as snarky exes, as someone said upthread, but to me, intentional or not, it comes across to me as Laurel still a bit in love with Oliver. She's happy for him and Felicity, but there's still a bit of her that is not over him yet.

And Steve gets terrible cases of Involuntary Constipated Face in scenes with KC.

[i'm here all week!]

I agree re: KC playing Laurel still a bit into Oliver because it's her headcanon. And while I find it funny, in a weird way, it kinda fits Laurel -- not because she's still in love with Oliver, but because THIS Oliver would be the get, the win, without any of the work she'd have to put into "fixing" him. So maybe given the opportunity, Laurel would pounce Oliver? I totally can see it. And KC helps me see it.

Oliver would run away screaming to another galaxy, though.

[AyChihuahua]

I agree re: KC playing Laurel still a bit into Oliver because it's her headcanon. And while I find it funny, in a weird way, it kinda fits Laurel -- not because she's still in love with Oliver, but because THIS Oliver would be the get, the win, without any of the work she'd have to put into "fixing" him. So maybe given the opportunity, Laurel would pounce Oliver? I totally can see it. And KC helps me see it.

Oliver would run away screaming to another galaxy, though.

They somewhat did that in S2, when she tried to kiss him, and he negged the hell out of her.

[Primal Slayer]

We never got a clear view of their relationship, we know that Oliver was the ultimate playboy but Oliver acted different around Laurel, he seemed to be a bit more mature and put together which is one of the reasons why Moira liked Laurel. Not to mention that they just were going through a romance 3 years ago. So for me it makes sense for her to bring up their relationship.

[AyChihuahua]

We never got a clear view of their relationship, we know that Oliver was the ultimate playboy but Oliver acted different around Laurel, he seemed to be a bit more mature and put together which is one of the reasons why Moira liked Laurel. Not to mention that they just were going through a romance 3 years ago. So for me it makes sense for her to bring up their relationship.

He was way more mature when he was dating Laurel, like when he was banging Laurel's sister and also Baby Mama on the side. And screwing the pizza guy out of a decent tip. Totally mature.

[Morrigan2575]

And sleeping with that dude's fiance right before the wedding. Not to mention peeing on a cop car.

[kismet]

Even though it really was a good episode with some good character moments... my interest in the show was AWOL. I know I am the minority that was not blown away by the episode. I think I'm just annoyed because as good as it was, it will probably be the last time with see the Diggles and FS in the spotlight. So how can I be happy when I know this episode was put together to satisfy a demand, but will likely not be reflected or repeated later this season? I want every episode like this, not just the special ones they give to keep the fandom quiet. In the eyes of the writers & TPTB it felt like it was a filler episode.

 

They are gonna brush over the paralysis and minimize it - which annoys me to no end. I mean they already did, there is no way someone learns how to use a wheelchair that well in under a week, if they are newly paralyzed. Plus most people would still be in therapy or at least mention therapy. But then again the injury is really not important and we would want to make it too dark by making it realistic or anything. That being said EBR nailed the scenes with herself. It was no Orphan Black, but it was pretty awesome. I really liked "Smoak" a lot more than I like FS at times. Smoak remind me a lot of FS of s1&2 before they diluted her in s3.

 

I hate the name Overwatch. I forgive you @wonderwall, but please remember to use your power for good next time :)

 

I know they are most likely going to brush over Shadowspire & Lil Dig's connection. I actually wonder if this is the last we will probably see of Lil Dig & Lyla besides a few passing shots, which would be a shame because they were really great this episode. RIP Amanda Waller, surprised they shot & "killed" her in such a definite way. I try to understand the whole no sharing amongst the DC TV & movie universes, but I'm surprised they didn't leave it a little bit more ambiguous so they can bring her back when they are allowed to bring her back.

Edited January 29, 2016 by kismet

[Starfish35]

NOTP = "Non-Organic Toilet Paper?"

I'm not sure whether you were just making a joke or if you really don't know what it means, but I will reply in Small Talk.

[MuuMuuChainsmoker]

While there is a lot of latitude for topic drift in Arrow forums, can I ask that you guys self-correct and move back towards discussing this episode, rather than Arrow history?

 

With love, Oliver's Abs

[Angel12d]

I don't think it makes any sense to bring up the past O/L relationship. One of the things I've liked how they've handled the transition between love interests is that there's never been any indication of jealousy or longing looks from Laurel. They've not tried to make a possible love triangle which some shows would do. Oliver is in love with Felicity and that's that. 

 

So Laurel bringing up the fact that she used to date Oliver just makes me uncomfortable because it's not relevant information anymore, especially when Ollie and Oliver are two completely different people. I think this show has proven time and time again that Laurel never really knew Oliver at all, not in her bones, nothing. Ollie doesn't even exist anymore. So she wouldn't know what it's like to date him because he was never respectful of their relationship in the way Oliver is with Felicity (baby mama lie aside).

 

Also, it kinda makes me feel bad for KC having to speak lines about how much Oliver loves Felicity. Like we know she didn't work as love interest. No need to rub it in. 

Edited January 29, 2016 by Angel12d

[AyChihuahua]

And sleeping with that dude's fiance right before the wedding. Not to mention peeing on a cop car.

Hey, the rehearsal dinner IS before the wedding.

While there is a lot of latitude for topic drift in Arrow forums, can I ask that you guys self-correct and move back towards discussing this episode, rather than Arrow history?

 

With love, Oliver's Abs

You know, I get that it's nearly impossible to keep up that level of definition long-term unless you're like a professional athlete, but DAMN.

 

DAMN.

[lemotomato]

Also, it kinda makes me feel bad for KC having to speak lines about how much Oliver loves Felicity. Like we know she failed epically as love interest. No need to rub it in. 

I wish they stop giving her those lines not because I feel bad for KC, but because she can't sell them. You'd think they would've learned a lesson from when she couldn't keep the grin off her face when Laurel was saying goodbye to Sara in 2x23.

[Primal Slayer]

He was way more mature when he was dating Laurel, like when he was banging Laurel's sister and also Baby Mama on the side. And screwing the pizza guy out of a decent tip. Totally mature.

You're right, he did that all in front of her face, while she was standing there. I didn't say he was more mature when she was dating Laurel, I said he was more mature when he was around her, as in her presence.  For me it makes sense that she bring up their former relationship or even was able to see anything in him.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Primal Slayer

[Angel12d]

I wish they stop giving her those lines not because I feel bad for KC, but because she can't sell them. You'd think they would've learned a lesson from when she couldn't keep the grin off her face when Laurel was saying goodbye to Sara in 2x23.

 

Exactly. And I don't exactly blame her for not being able to sell the 'Oliver loves Felicity so much' line. That was supposed to be her in that position. 

 

The grinning about the jacket thing was understandable if she was so excited but a bit unprofessional, IMO. Smile behind the scenes, pull it together on screen. Her sister was leaving to go be an assassin again. No one should be that happy! LOL.

 

I'm going off topic now so I'll stop! 

Edited January 29, 2016 by Angel12d

[dtissagirl]

I wish they stop giving her those lines not because I feel bad for KC, but because she can't sell them. You'd think they would've learned a lesson from when she couldn't keep the grin off her face when Laurel was saying goodbye to Sara in 2x23.

Involuntary NOTP Face is a serious disease, okay.

Also Involuntary Cat Who Killed the First Canary Face is pretty serious too.

[wonderwall]

NOTP = "Non-Organic Toilet Paper?"

 

Assuming that's Katie Cassidy's choice, I think it's a valid one.  Laurel connected with Oliver when he was a selfish, immature douchebag who feared commitment.  Towards the end of Season 1, she started to reconnect with him before Tommy's death scarred them both.  Now, two or three years later, Oliver has kind of "finished baking" and grown into a brave, loving, responsible man, the best version of himself.  And that best version of Oliver is with another woman.  I think Laurel wants Oliver and Felicity to be happy and for them to be happy together.  At the same time, though, it's not hard to understand why she might occasionally wonder and wish for "what might have been."

 

Ah you're so new to fandom... 

 

OTP: One true pairing - a pairing that you love the most - IMO it's kinda silly, but it has been in the fandom world for a long time

NOTP: Self explanatory :p

 

I think you have a valid point about Laurel. I do wish for her to not wonder what would've been because that's a slippery slope. And to be honest, I don't know why the show sticks her with these comments because from interviews it's obvious Katie Cassidy loves the Oliver/Laurel pairing (it could be be because she genuinely likes them or because being a love interest means getting more screentime) so it's kind of rubbing salt in the wounds. 

[statsgirl]

I thought One True Pairing was the one that the EPs were going for as endgame (e.g. Barry/Iris) rather than the one I found more interesting (Barry/Patty).

 

They are gonna brush over the paralysis and minimize it - which annoys me to no end. I mean they already did, there is no way someone learns how to use a wheelchair that well in under a week, if they are newly paralyzed.

We don't know that it is only a week from the last episode, only that it's been a month from the shooting. Since episode 4x10 started at the ER after the shooting and ended after the second surgery, it probably took place in a shorter timeline.

 

Please continue your interrupted discussion.

[SleepDeprived]

^ Actually, Felicity said that she's been stuck in the loft for a week and a half already. Which, maybe, makes it safe to assume that she's been practicing getting around in her wheelchair since then.

 

Re-watched the episode and I still really love it. But I'm super curious what the Rubicon is. Is that a comics thing? I googled but didn't really come up with anything.

 

Felicity burning the GothFelicity photo because she's determined to make sure that her "past stays in the past?" I see your foreshadowing, Show. I see you.

 

Also, I've decided that, on my next re-watch of this episode, I'm going to take a drink every time the word "Shadowspire" is mentioned by anyone. Lawd. They kept repeating it over and over and, like, I get it. The evil military organization's name is Shadowspire. Okay already. In just one sequence alone that lasted less than 2 minutes, they mentioned it 8 times! Lol. I'm going to be super tipsy on my next re-watch.

[johntfs]

There are certain names in this continuity that I cannot take seriously.  Zoom is one.  Sure, well-played lantern-hanging creepy story that Wells 2.0 told featuring Zoom and the murdered cops.  That said, I simply cannot be afraid of someone who shares even part of their super name with a Tim Allen movie.  "Yeah, they call them The Kranks because they murder children with cranks."  Still not afraid, even vicariously.

 

Vandal Savage is another.  The name generation effect of "minor criminal"(Vandal) + "derogatory term for an indigenous person"(Savage) drops my respect level for him and makes me wonder if we'll meet some of his historical sidekicks like "Litterbug Barbarian" or "Jaywalker Caveman."  Don't bother waking me until we finally get to "Arsonist Aborigine." 

 

Add to that list, "Shadowspire."  Shadowspire does not sound like a Special Forces unit.  It sounds like a manor home in which would dwell an evil (but handsome!) vampire lord that would give Goth Felicity a serious case of the hot and bothered (or at least the warm and annoyed).

Edited January 29, 2016 by johntfs

[looptab]

I honestly don't understand why this show has Laurel bring up that she dated Oliver like that somehow informs on who he is now. Laurel, you dated him 8 years ago. Who he is and how he is in a relationship is not something that your past experience with him would have any connection.  The show keeps bringing this up through her dialogue. Last season when she told WildCat that she use to date him and the I don't know why I ever loved you line. I'm not who I was 8 years ago and I haven't been through a fraction of what Oliver was. It makes her appear clueless and trying to add an emotional intimacy which doesn't exist between those two. I almost feel bad for when she has say those lines. Oliver never brings that stuff up. Just let that relationship remain dead show stop dragging it back in the light like it's not something to be ashamed off.

This. ITA.

 

We never got a clear view of their relationship, we know that Oliver was the ultimate playboy but Oliver acted different around Laurel, he seemed to be a bit more mature and put together which is one of the reasons why Moira liked Laurel. Not to mention that they just were going through a romance 3 years ago. So for me it makes sense for her to bring up their relationship.

 While I agree that we never really got any consistent details on what their relationship was (were they on and off? were they together since high school till the presumed death, with lots of cheating? We don't really know for sure), I don't agree on the fact that bringing their relationship up makes any sense.

 

It would if they used it  in context- like they did when Laurel was giving advice to Sara (although that didn't make sense because, again, the dialogue doesn't really add up with what we do know about L/O, but that's another issue). While I would absolutely cringe and I hope they stay far far away from Laurel ever giving relationship advices to Oliver, that would kinda make sense. But, as it was in this episode? No, not at all. The dialogue was pretty much "I used to date you, so I can tell you you shouldn't beat youself up", which..Uh? Where's the sense in that? It's like saying, I used to date you, so I can tell you you shouldn't bite your fingernails. Well, everyone could tell him that.

 

I wish they stop giving her those lines not because I feel bad for KC, but because she can't sell them. You'd think they would've learned a lesson from when she couldn't keep the grin off her face when Laurel was saying goodbye to Sara in 2x23.

I particularly appreciate the way she manages to deliver those lines through gritted teeth.

 

By the way, since I do want to educate myself, to be clear, is  the Involuntary NOTP Syndrome related to the face KC gets when talking about Olicity, or is the face she makes that provokes the syndrome about Loliver to us? I mean, is she affected by the syndrome, or does she affect us? LOL

[dtissagirl]

By the way, since I do want to educate myself, to be clear, is  the Involuntary NOTP Syndrome related to the face KC gets when talking about Olicity, or is the face she makes that provokes the syndrome about Loliver to us? I mean, is she affected by the syndrome, or does she affect us? LOL

She's affected by the syndrome. O/F is her [involuntary] NOTP, and whenever the script has Laurel talking positively about the pairing in anyway, KC's face betrays her.

[looptab]

Thanks for clearing that up. It's a serious disease, it's better to be informed. :)

[nksarmi]

Ah you're so new to fandom... 

 

OTP: One true pairing - a pairing that you love the most - IMO it's kinda silly, but it has been in the fandom world for a long time

NOTP: Self explanatory :p

 

I think you have a valid point about Laurel. I do wish for her to not wonder what would've been because that's a slippery slope. And to be honest, I don't know why the show sticks her with these comments because from interviews it's obvious Katie Cassidy loves the Oliver/Laurel pairing (it could be be because she genuinely likes them or because being a love interest means getting more screentime) so it's kind of rubbing salt in the wounds. 

 

I didn't get anything from Laurel/KC other than "we had a history so listen to me."  I even think KC sold Laurel's "That's why you love her so much" line.  In fact, I thought she sold it well enough to sink any lingering hope of anyone that Oliver and Laurel would ever get back together.  About the only thing they could do to take it one step further is to have Laurel tell Felicity that Oliver is different with her (Felicity) than he's ever been with anyone else (including both her - Laurel - and Sara).

 

In show, Laurel's line implies so much.  You love her because she's strong an she makes her own choices and she isn't complete wrapped up in you.  Combine that with Laurel's previous lines and it shows that she knows Oliver didn't truly love her or respect her when they were together.  And she can see that he does love and respect Felicity.  And she's over her hurt feelings over him (and his cheating with Sara) enough to give him advice.  That's big for their characters because it's a step in the right direction for me to believe they can actually be friends (not future lovers) but friends. 

 

Now I need for Laurel to get a new love interest and I can only guess that the reason KC isn't pushing for one is because she thinks her fans want GA/BC.  But if she isn't in the grave this season - I hope Laurel gets a new guy next season (they should do a nod to the original BC's story and have her date a private eye named Larry).

[lexicon]

My problem with the L/O sparring scene was when she linked the fact that as somebody who used to date him, she could say he shouldn't be so hard on himself. That immediately had me going "What?" because the guy she dated, Ollie was a lying cheating douchebag, which she knew then and knows now, so I couldn't get why her past relationship would be used to support any assertion that he shouldn't be blaming himself. That guy should absolutely be hard on himself as from everything we've seen in the flashbacks, he was usually at fault so I felt like she could've given the same speech without making it seem as though she was basing it on her experience with him in the past, as her Ollie did whatever he wanted and never seemed to give a moment's thought to the consequences.

 

As to the NOTP face KC made as she commented on Oliver's love for Felicity, I feel like that is very much KC's headcanon about LL and how she sees her relationship with OQ coming through. When you compare her face there with the genuine warmth in the scene before the drone attack where she remarked on mini Felicity, the difference is palpable. I've seen other pics of KC where she's smiling and there is a warmth that comes through, that is never there when she's playing LL in all her crossed arm angry faced glory. The only way that I can rationalise it is that to her that is the only/best way to demonstrate LL's badass kickass nature. Similarly, her expressions and tone when she speaks to Oliver reflect her (KC's) view of LL and OQ's relationship which as she's stated in interviews are soulmates who don't necessarily end up together. Now I don't know where she's seeing that and I absolutely think the show has moved far away from any suggestion of that  but I don't think KC has and I think that's how she plays it. I don't necessarily think that it's a conscious thought to play it that way but I think her feelings about it definitely informs, how it comes across on screen.

[dtissagirl]

It's also hilarious how much that conversation would be a better fit with Sara instead.

 

Maybe the writers legit can't tell whose Lance sister had what kind of relationship with Oliver anymore.

[nksarmi]

I know KC has said things about Laurel and Oliver before, but I honestly think she was appealing to that fanbase.  This is a quote from her in September of 2015 about Laurel:

 

"I’m really happy because I like the direction they’ve gone with my character. I’m not the girlfriend or the love interest, I actually have my own storyline. I’m not just there to serve as a love interest. Yeah, I’m sure at some point, hopefully … not to be selfish on a personal level, they’ll cast someone to potentially be my love interest. It’ll probably happen and I like that I have my own storyline aside from Team Arrow as well; I have my own identity.

 

Honestly, I don’t know when they would do it because Laurel, right now, being on the team and being a part of it is still so new to her, that’s just where she’s focused, owning what she’s doing, owning herself, the Black Canary, and proving herself. I think she’s living that world and is supportive of Oliver and Felicity."

 

So personally, I really think KC probably has a different head canon for Laurel and Oliver than she did early on.  And again, I buy her support of Oliver and Felicity (more so Felicity to be honest).  I don't know if this is the first time she has talked about a love interest for Laurel, but I think that signals that even she isn't paying that much homage to GA/BC anymore. 

Edited January 29, 2016 by nksarmi

[jay741982]

I can NOT believe I'm about to say this but if anything Oliver should be more overwhelmed to tell her, given the backstory as to why he's still around to lie to her in the first place. Which would carry more weight if he didn't just blab to Laurel about the alternate time line, but still Oliver is certainly dumb enough to think I can't tell her because Barry said telling her about alternate time line is bad juju, and if I admit I lied about BM, I'll have to tell her why I waited so long and indeed why he waited so long is because he died in previous time line and then Barry erased it and then Barry broke his own bad juju rule and told Oliver something from the alternate time line and LORD it's a lot so I can see him deciding it's one giant tar pit of NO, rather than just cutting through all that with I have a son, I found out here, I didn't tell you because I'm a dumb, insecure asshole who doesn't deserve you, I hope to God I can eventually win back your trust and love.

In a prefect world he would say this to her but with these writers he won't say all this and they will probably have Felicity(rightfully so) yell at him and dump him. Oliver deserves it

[Starfish35]

She also said this summer, speaking of Oliver and Laurel, that "soulmates don't always end up together." So I think she still does very much headcanon them as soulmates, and that plays into her acting choices. She just finally got the memo that Lauriver isn't going to be happening.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Starfish35

[looptab]

Yeah, we had pages of discussion about what might have finally caused her to change her tune. And that "not the love interest" quote has been at the center of it. *shivers*

[kismet]

And while I know they didn't have Oliver articulate this - I think this is what he is thinking - because Felicity didn't find out the kid and break up with him (per Barry's horrible observation and reporting skills) that's why she ended up getting shot. Because, follow me here...

If Barry was right and Felicity dumps him when she finds out about the kid (Oliver should know that wasn't why Felicity dumped him and Mr. "this is why we ask questions" really should have drilled Barry more on exactly what he saw so Oliver could figure out what the hell happened, but I digress)....

Then Felicity and Oliver don't get engaged and Felicity isn't in Darhk's sites and isn't in the limo with him to get shot and paralyzed.

So I can kind of see Oliver turning this around into being his fault because he is acting selfishly to prevent Felicity from breaking up with him. And if they full explore this in the breakup stuff that happens later this season, I might be impressed. But since Oliver hardly ever talks when Felicity is mad at him, I'm not sure any of this is going to come out.

Though I have to say that I really hope Felicity adoes learn ALL of the story so she can go kick Barry's ass for telling Oliver they break up and adding fuel to Oliver's natural tendency to fib his butt of anyway. Barry shouldn't go around talking about how he can't mess with time or tell anyone about their futures/alternate futures and then tell someone about something he witnessed when he didn't even see the whole thing. That's just irresponsible.

So basically OQ has to lie because it is intentionally fixing the timeline? I wonder if that will be an excuse to forgive him? I had to lie because BM & time told me to! I know time is powerful, but these Flarrowverse writers are giving it way too much power. It's hunting people. It's making people lie. Heck it probably is the reason the tattoo is flashy this year.

[kismet]

I actually really want Andy to betray his brother in the end. I don't think everyone should be saved or redeemed. They can have their moments - just like Andy did in this episode - but I think I prefer the idea that being slightly bad is just who he is. That would mess with Diggle's head and be a challenge for him to deal with.

Im with you. I want Andy to not be good. I want him to be playing Dig to an extent. Perhaps he can betray him and then in a finsl moment of heroics sacrifice himself for one of the Diggles. That way we can have bad & good Andy, which I think fits who he is.

[nksarmi]

So basically OQ has to lie because it is intentionally fixing the timeline? I wonder if that will be an excuse to forgive him? I had to lie because BM & time told me to! I know time is powerful, but these Flarrowverse writers are giving it way too much power. It's hunting people. It's making people lie. Heck it probably is the reason the tattoo is flashy this year.

 

Actually no. 

 

Barry didn't know that Oliver lied in the first timeline and that's what Felicity was pissed about.  Barry assumed (bad Barry - never assume) that Felicity was mad and broke up with Oliver over the kid - period.

 

So as far as Oliver knows lying about the kid to avoid the break up is what's messing things up.  Ergo, Oliver should feel bad about the damn lie.

 

But Mr. Barry "I can't tell you too much about the future, but I will tell you incomplete observations that don't need to be shared to fix what went wrong" Allan should feel bad as well.

[AyChihuahua]

So basically OQ has to lie because it is intentionally fixing the timeline? I wonder if that will be an excuse to forgive him? I had to lie because BM & time told me to! I know time is powerful, but these Flarrowverse writers are giving it way too much power. It's hunting people. It's making people lie. Heck it probably is the reason the tattoo is flashy this year.

If he really wants to "fix" the timeline, I'd think he'd have to murder everyone except Barry, and reconstitute Vandal Savage.

 

Wait, does he know Savage is alive? Has no one thought to ask Merlyn if he happens to know anything about that?

Edited January 29, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[apinknightmare]

I'm not sure if he knows or not. I can't remember if Ray mentioned traveling through time to stop Vandal Savage when he and Oliver chatted on LoT, or if he just mentioned teaming up with people for superhero hijinks through time.

[Delphi]

Nah he knows, he warNed Ray about how supposedly dangerous Savage is.

[AyChihuahua]

So this evil major villain that all the heroes, PLUS MALCOLM, banded together to defeat, is suddenly alive again, and no one is wondering how that happened, or, you know, if the OTHER VILLAIN helping them maybe had something to do with it?

 

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

[apinknightmare]

Nah he knows, he warNed Ray about how supposedly dangerous Savage is.

Thanks. As you can probably tell, I wasn't super engaged during that pilot, haha.

[blixie]

 

suddenly alive again

 

Well admittedly time travel and alternate-multiple timelines makes it hard to keep track of who is supposed to be alive when. I typically find it amusing when time travel is purposefully argued in universe as bullshit, but that's not what the DC shows are doing. They keep explaining, and explaining, and explaining, none of the explanations make sense in isolation or together. At this moment right now this is how we are pretending Time Lines and Travel work but stay tuned next week to all three shows and to see how it doesn't work this way at all!

Edited January 29, 2016 by blixie

[AyChihuahua]

Well admittedly time travel and alternate-multiple timelines makes it hard to keep track of who is supposed to be alive when. I typically find it amusing when time travel is purposefully argued in universe as bullshit, but that's not what the DC shows are doing. They keep explaining, and explaining, and explaining, none of the explanations make sense in isolation or together. At this moment right now this is how we are pretending Time Lines and Travel work but stay tuned next week to all three shows and to see how it doesn't work this way at all!

Oh yeah, but you'd think he'd at least think to ask the question. I mean it was:

 

Hero, hero, douche hero, hero, birdy hero, VILLAIN, douche hero, bird hero, hero, douche hero.

 

Sooooo, which one of those should we suspect of possibly having something to do with the re-aliving of the super-villain?

[bijoux]

Im with you. I want Andy to not be good. I want him to be playing Dig to an extent. Perhaps he can betray him and then in a finsl moment of heroics sacrifice himself for one of the Diggles. That way we can have bad & good Andy, which I think fits who he is.

Ditto. Frankly, that's precisely what I expect to happen.

[Starfish35]

Hero, hero, douche hero, hero, birdy hero, VILLAIN, douche hero, bird hero, hero, douche hero.

I'm picturing a virtual lineup, with everyone holding signs. "Now Oliver, please identify the one responsible. Take your time."

[AyChihuahua]

I'm picturing a virtual lineup, with everyone holding signs. "Now Oliver, please identify the one responsible. Take your time."

Ha ha ha ha! Hey, it takes awhile for the hamster that lives inside his head (TM apinknightmare) to get the wheel spinning!

 

I don't know why, but it's totally cracking me up that Malcolm so obviously did this and that has occurred to NO ONE.

[arjumand]

Ha ha ha ha! Hey, it takes awhile for the hamster that lives inside his head (TM apinknightmare) to get the wheel spinning!

 

I don't know why, but it's totally cracking me up that Malcolm so obviously did this and that has occurred to NO ONE.

 

You know what's really bugging me, and it's in reference to this episode? That the hamster that lives inside his head (I like it!) can't remember the time when he was frickin' hallucinating, and can't apply it to what was happening to the love of his life.

 

Honestly, this is bugging me so much, and I don't know if it was an acting choice, or directorial instructions, (or just, um, ineptitude) but the scene where all three (ha!) of them are in the loft, SA clearly can hear Goth!Felicity. And then, when he looks to the side to see what Felicity is looking at, he cranes his neck far too much. It just looks fake, like he's trying not to see her.

 

Ugh. Why can't I like this episode? Maybe because Oliver pretended he didn't find Goth Felicity super hot? Stop lying, dude. I find her hot, and I don't even swing that way.

[Starfish35]

That was kind of funny. SA was having a really hard time talking over Gothlicity.

[statsgirl]

I don't know how they did the special effects for that scene but I thought that SA was there when EBR was being Felicity and they added the GothFelicity in later. That could explain why his turning around looked fake, because they moved the final Felicity from where Ali Liebert was standing.