S06.E03: Season 6, Episode 3

[abbyzenn]

When I wrote "original characters" I meant those still on the show - not ones that have left.  To me someone like Denker adds absolutely nothing to the show (other than my annoyance).  Story lines are sometimes rushed or even non-existent because time is taken up with such dribble.   Certainly more could have been done with Tom's character.  For that matter, we could have had an scene or two of him in Boston - not that they'd actually have to film it there - it could have been a scene in a room in his flat or office.

I don't get why this series Mr. Carson is so "mean" towards Thomas.  And I certainly don't see what Mrs. Hughes sees in Carson - atleat not to the point of wanting to marry him.

I did like Mrs. Hughes explanation about the differences in the classes wedding receptions.

[SusanSunflower]

Tom's motivation for returning to Downton (so very very quickly) really doesn't wash and I think the family's (particularly Mary and Edith's as age-peers) immediate reaction would be to suspect some sort of disaster that forced his return ... not some grade-school homesickness or desire to live a soft life with servants, meals and laundry taken for granted. And yet we were given nothing except a vague homesickness ... as if Tom were a decade younger and had not already lived a life of exile and homesickness (from/for Ireland) doing conflictual menial labor (revolutionary chauffeuring rich people).  Even if he explained he had been financially wiped out by a riverboat card sharp (shades of Gregson), or was alarmed by the effect of his hard-scrabble choices on Sybbie, was it would have made better "sense" ... he looks like a wimp. 

 

Imagine instead if he had arrived at the downstairs entrance late that evening, to be greeted by the happy and exhausted downstairs staff -- filled in on the goings-on -- and told his story ... No, Tom would not have barged in on Carson's speech, making it all about the "cousins' reunion" ... he just wouldn't ... and he certainly would have cared "how it looked." Imagine him surprising Edith and Mary and Robert at the breakfast table ...  

[jumper sage]

I too was a bit miffed that Tom couldn't wait outside for just a sec.........But I am glad to see him!  He is my favorite character at the moment, he and Edith.

[Kohola3]

To me someone like Denker adds absolutely nothing to the show (other than my annoyance).  Story lines are sometimes rushed or even non-existent because time is taken up with such dribble.

 

I agree about the useless drivel.  There is so little time left, this is not the time to introduce more stupid plots - a nephew hiding in the potting shed? Seriously?  Are we going to have another series of visits by detectives and constables for no apparent reason?  

 

Enough, already.  The Mr. Green saga was way more than we should have had to tolerate without resurrecting another manhunt.

[Constantinople]

Edith: Our butler is getting married on Saturday. Which is quite a big thing.

Bertie: Has he been with you a long time?

Edith: Forever. He joined us as a junior footman in my grandfather's day.

Between that and Mary's comment in the previous episode that Carson had worked at Downton for half a century, I'm wondering when Carson had time to be a Cheerful Charlie.

It's as if Carson is reverting to the Season 1 Press Pack in which he was described as working at Downton since he was a boy. I'll be curious to see if childless Lady Rosamund does the same and suddenly her children Lavinia and Cyril show up.

[SusanSunflower]

I was glad to see Tom as well -- although I would anticipate Mary -- in full territorial fashion -- telling him that since she is the estate agent, he's now merely a dependent ... until/unless he finds something to that needs doing. She really was relentlessly bitchy and obstructive again and again. Ridiculous that Cora was never given a chance to do through HER closet to see what she would recommend loaning (or giving) to Mrs. Hughes... that Mary or Cora did not take it upon themselves to act as fashion consultants, and ridiculous that Mrs. Hughes was not given a choice as to what item of clothing to borrow (her wedding, her choice).... and absurd that Anna would have simply taken Mary's suggestion as a carte blanche ... she wouldn't have. (some of Cora's clothes were doubtless extremely expensive, some are new, some are older and past-current-fashion). 

[RedHawk]

I enjoyed Thomas' interview at the crumbling great house. Poor old Lord Barmy LivesinthePast, thinking the beautiful ladies will return with their sparkling jewels and dresses. Thomas' slightly stunned and slightly horrified reaction was perfect. I wonder if he was familiar with Dickens' Miss Havisham? 

 

I hope that interview opens his eyes to the fact that the Great House way of Life has passed for all but the wealthiest and he should seek his fortune in the city.

 

Makes me wonder if there will be some reason revealed that he wants to stay in the area. Otherwise, I can't account for it, except that Fellowes has written the character so inconsistently all these seasons.

 

Glad he spoke up and said he only wanted to be friends with Andrew. I'm tired of so many downstairs treating him like he's a predator and turning Andrew against him.

[Roseanna]

I think it's more that actors don't want to return.  Dan Stevens quit because he didn't want to be typecast.  Ed Speleers supposedly quit because he thought he would get a lead role in Force Awakens.  Not sure why the actress who played O'Brien quit, perhaps because she was tired of being villainised.  I see in the previews that "Mr. and Mrs. Harding" arrive, this followed by a snippet of "I didn't even know he was friends with Gwen" and then a quick shot of a well-dressed woman who I think was Gwen Dawson, the maid from Season 1 who left to become a secretary (and a Wildling on "Game of Thrones").  So it seems that when actors want to come back, it could be possible.  I wonder if we could see Rose, Alfred, and Ivy, all of whom left on good terms.

 

How could Spratt replace Matthew when all Mary's suitors couldn't do it?

 

I don't think there was no need to new characters. Or at least they weren't needed upstairs although Rose left a gap in younger generation.  What would have needed was to have Tom a storyline.

 

Only thing I can suppose Stratt is thought for is comedy now when Molesley is a serious character but for even that Spratt is no good.   

[RedHawk]

Between that and Mary's comment in the previous episode that Carson had worked at Downton for half a century, I'm wondering when Carson had time to be a Cheerful Charlie.

It's as if Carson is reverting to the Season 1 Press Pack in which he was described as working at Downton since he was a boy. I'll be curious to see if childless Lady Rosamund does the same and suddenly her children Lavinia and Cyril show up.

The only way I can make Carson's history work is that he was on stage as a very young man, when he was maybe 15 to 18-19. Perhaps he ran off to seek a life in the city and when the Cheerful Charlies didn't work out, he decided that service was actually a decent way to secure living. I'd like to know what his parents were. 

 

ETA: Or maybe the Charlies broke up when his buddy/partner married the woman Carson loved.

Edited January 18, 2016 by RedHawk

[persey]

What happened to Tom is yet another instance of Fellowes' going for the cheap emotional payoff by means of character assassination.

 

He was written out so we'd get the heart-wrenching parting, but brought back presumably as the endgame for Mary.  But when he left, Tom no longer had a reason to go; he had a interesting and responsible job, was  loved and valued by the Crawleys, and even knew how to wear dinner clothes.  And having gone, he goes all maudlin and turns on a dime to return and upstages two people at the major event of their lives, but we get the joyful reunion scene, down to the cousins' hug.   

 

So for two transitory moments of cheap feels, Tom has been turned into a jackass. 

[izabella]

Isn't a lot of it because of Marigold?  I guess she could bring Marigold with her, but at Downton she has a nanny and plays with George.  Isn't the whole reason why she was allowed to have Marigold as her ward because of the opportunities and resources that would be available to Marigold at Downton?  Was it customary in those times to award guardianship to an unmarried and presumably unrelated woman?  I wonder if Edith would have been successful at her case if she had been on her own.

 

I found it interesting that when she was talking about Marigold and Bertie asked who is Marigold, Edith replied "she's my..... OUR... ward".  Who did she mean by "our"?  All of the Crawleys?  It's just Edith, right?

 

Marigold is a ward of all the Crawleys, not just Edith.  That's the story they're putting out in public, so that's why Edith corrected herself to say our ward.  So you are right - Downton's nursery is why it makes sense for Marigold to be with the Crawleys.  Edith would need to hire a nanny if she brought her to London, and then there would have to be a new story to tell the public why Edith is taking on sole responsibility for the Crawley ward in London, since Edith is never going to acknowledge that Marigold is her daughter. 

 

Obviously, Edith is Marigold's real mother, so all the Crawleys except Mary know that Marigold is nobody's ward, but is actually Edith's daughter.

[Roseanna]

Isn't a lot of it because of Marigold?  I guess she could bring Marigold with her, but at Downton she has a nanny and plays with George.  Isn't the whole reason why she was allowed to have Marigold as her ward because of the opportunities and resources that would be available to Marigold at Downton?  Was it customary in those times to award guardianship to an unmarried and presumably unrelated woman?  I wonder if Edith would have been successful at her case if she had been on her own.

 

I found it interesting that when she was talking about Marigold and Bertie asked who is Marigold, Edith replied "she's my..... OUR... ward".  Who did she mean by "our"?  All of the Crawleys?  It's just Edith, right?

 

Edith was going to say "my daughter" but fixed it "our ward" as the fiction for the world is that Marigold is the ward of the Crawley family.

 

I don't think how it was in England, but here it was nothing unusual that a wealthy spinster offered to take f.ex. of the relatives children or a poor talented child to live with her in order to get a better school and finally attend at the university.

 

Edith has got Gregson's magazine and flat, so she has money to pay for a nanny. It would be better for Marigold's future that she used to live with more ordinary people than in Downton.

 

The only reason irl not to move Marigold to London would be that Marigold had already been moved from home to home too often, so it would be better to wait until she begins the school.

 

However, in the show the real obstacle is that most scenes happen in Downton.

[Constantinople]

The last time Tom left Downton, crossed the sea to a another land and then returned unannounced, he was fleeing the law.

Just saying.

[Roseanna]

What happened to Tom is yet another instance of Fellowes' going for the cheap emotional payoff by means of character assassination.

 

He was written out so we'd get the heart-wrenching parting, but brought back presumably as the endgame for Mary.  But when he left, Tom no longer had a reason to go; he had a interesting and responsible job, was  loved and valued by the Crawleys, and even knew how to wear dinner clothes.  And having gone, he goes all maudlin and turns on a dime to return and upstages two people at the major event of their lives, but we get the joyful reunion scene, down to the cousins' hug.   

 

So for two transitory moments of cheap feels, Tom has been turned into a jackass. 

 

Irl Tom would have considered a loser and sissy who "returned with a milk train" (I don't know if there is such a phrase in England).

[Kohola3]

To have Mrs Hughes, Anna and Mrs Patmore in Cora's room trying on her clothes made no sense anyway. It only adds conflict and drah-ma!  What would have made much more sense would be to bring the problem to Baxter, who is, after all, in charge of Cora's clothes, and have her bring some potential choices down to the servant's hall.

 

Excellent point.  Baxter would have known what things Cora would be mostly likely to be willing to lend out.  Everybody's got some "least favorite" item in the back of the closet that wouldn't be missed.

[Kohola3]

To have Mrs Hughes, Anna and Mrs Patmore in Cora's room trying on her clothes made no sense anyway. It only adds conflict and drah-ma!  What would have made much more sense would be to bring the problem to Baxter, who is, after all, in charge of Cora's clothes, and have her bring some potential choices down to the servant's hall.

 

Excellent point.  Baxter would have known what things Cora would be mostly likely to be willing to lend out.  Everybody's got some "least favorite" item in the back of the closet that wouldn't be missed.

[statsgirl]

I can't stop wondering how Tom got back.  Mary says "Tom wrote me a very sad letter. I'll have to write him back - after the wedding" so I presume either he and Sybbie flew back (did they do that in those days?) or he wrote the letter and then immediately impulsively decided to return.

 

It really is obvious that JF doesn't know what to do with Tom.  "Let's send him to America ....no, let's bring him right back. There, that's 3 episodes where Tom has a storyline, and one more for when he figures out what to do now that he's back.  That should take care of him for this season.

 

I almost thought Mary must have set Mrs. Hughes up for the smackdown by Cora.

Now that you mention it, maybe she did.  Mary certainly didn't like being told by the servants in front of everyone that her plans for Carson's wedding weren't perfect.

 

I appreciate that Cora is still trying to raise Mary to be a better person (Mary would never have believed that Mrs. Hughes didn't want the wedding at the Abbey if she hadn't heard it publicly) where Carson is still ruining Mary's personality by telling her everything about her is perfect.

 

The saddest thing about the job interview estate was the discoloration on the walls where pictures used to hang. You can imagine them selling off all the furnishings and artwork bit by bit to keep the estate afloat.

 

Bertie is very nice and definitely too good for Edith, but he's also a little pathetic? When he offered to come back to the office, fetch coffee and sandwiches and be a general dogsbody all night for a person he'd met once, I can see why he was described as kind of sad in the Brancaster Castle episode.

The discoloration on the walls was beautifully done.  The whole interview was.  (I had a childhood crush on Ronald Pickup from his The Dragon's Opponent role and it was sad to see how much older he's got.  (I guess I have too.)

 

I like the Edith/Bertie pairing because they're both kind people but lost souls who need to find their way.  Edith may have found hers but it sounds like Bertie is still looking.  Props to him for not settling down to be one of the idle rich.  I think offering to come back and help was sweet and showed an ability to be flexible.  If Edith couldn't spend the time having drinks and dinner with him, he'd take that time to help her out of a jam.

 

Can you imagine what Mary would have done to Bertie?  She'd steamroller right over him.  Matthew wouldn't let her, Gillingham would so she didn't want him.  I hope whoever she ends up with sets real limits for her.

[blackwing]

She really was relentlessly bitchy and obstructive again and again. Ridiculous that Cora was never given a chance to do through HER closet to see what she would recommend loaning (or giving) to Mrs. Hughes... that Mary or Cora did not take it upon themselves to act as fashion consultants, and ridiculous that Mrs. Hughes was not given a choice as to what item of clothing to borrow (her wedding, her choice).... and absurd that Anna would have simply taken Mary's suggestion as a carte blanche ... she wouldn't have. (some of Cora's clothes were doubtless extremely expensive, some are new, some are older and past-current-fashion). 

Mary did try and tell/ask Cora, but Cora was so preoccupied with the hospital drama.  What I found strange was that Mary knew that the three servants were up in Cora's room trying on her things.  After Cora just flitted in and left, Mary should have gotten up off her lazy butt and chased Cora down to tell her.  But I suppose Mary thought it would be OK.  I would have thought it was OK too.  I thought it was completely out of character for Cora to blow her top over the borrowing of a dress.  Mary wanted to loan Mrs. Hughes a dress out of kindness.  But her dresses would be too small for Mrs. Hughes as Anna said, and Cora's would be too tall but could be temporarily hemmed.

 

And I do think Mrs. Hughes did choose that fur coat thing.... they went through the closet and picked something they thought would complement and match that dress that Mrs. Patmore ordered.

[Too Late Kev]

Cora's dresses would be too small, too, wouldn't they? I perceive those two actresses as being very different sizes! A coat would more easily fit a variety of sizes, though.

[Kohola3]

I presume either he and Sybbie flew back (did they do that in those days?) or he wrote the letter and then immediately impulsively decided to return.

 

Lindburgh's transatlantic flight was in 1927.  Don't think he made a stop in Boston to pick up passengers but you never know with JF's continuity blanks.

[lucindabelle]

I believe English aristocrats typically use children for bridesmaids--you might have an adult MOH but the rest of the bridal party is all little girls. See: Diana's wedding (Lady Sarah Chatto was the token adult/child wrangler, the rest were all kids) and Kate's (her sister Pippa was the MOH, the rest were all girls with connections to William and Kate). So those "flower girls" were likely Edith's bridesmaids. Someone who knows more than me feel free to correct me.

 

OK I'll accept that. But why no best man? It was a big deal for Matthew, after all.

I assume that the last-minute pressure for Edith's magazine was due to her fight with her editor, but honestly, once I saw the proofs I thought "It's a ladies' magazine" - how much can you argue about which photos from someone's masquerade ball you're going to publish?  Also, if I had to work through the night I would have looked dead at 4am; Edith & Co looked exactly the same as they had the evening before.

working journalist here.

Let's please not insult genre mags. They are just as hard to edit and lay out as any other. And you still want your pages to be engaging and look beautiful and interesting.

This is not my genre, but I'm just saying.

And Edith is still a young woman, maybe 30? at that age you can pull an all nighter and look fresh.

 

I find it odd that a man just comes back from America to the relatives of his late wife and only then asks if he can stay for ever in his father-in-law's house. Even if the Crawleys had assured him that Downton is his and Sybbie's home, any sensible and polite person would have at least sent a telegram and asked if he can come, even if it was only a visit.

 

Finally, what are Tom's chances to meet eligible women and remarry if he stays in Downton?

 

But maybe we should only accept Tom's comeback was a surprise for the audience.

 

Yes, there's just no good reason at all not to telephone or at least send a telegram. Ugh. And yes he stole the thunder from Mrs. Hughes.

 

 Bertie seems fine but what kind of farm manager or whatever the heck he is has the skill set to step in and help "save" the magazine at the last minute?  Since it appeared to be some sort of ladies magazine, would he have ever seen it much less ever read it?  And he was certainly quick with the advice on the layout

 

 

 

Poor Mrs. Patmore will be tossing the next Sears and Roebuck's catalog in the dustbin...

 

Heh.

Again, working journalist, but I'm fine with Pelham having an eye for it all. Maybe he was on Yearbook Staff.

Or, more probably, has read a magazine before.

I too was happy to see Tom yet a little cheesed that he stole the wedding couple's thunder. Like, maybe wait until the toast is over before announcing your return. I think he looks pretty much the same as he did last season, but after the episode, there was the "Cast Reflects on their Favorite Memories" extra and they showed Tom sitting at Sybil's bedside right after she'd died and he looks like a completely different person there.

 

 

 

My dad (and growing up, my friends' dads who were the same age) were of Don Draper's generation and none of them wore wedding rings, but I think that was the last generation who didn't, as a rule, wear them. I think that's interesting that the generation before did wear them though. Nowadays if I see a married man without a ring, I assume he's an adulterer.

 

Yes, my dad was a WWII guy, same age as Don Draper (who imo should have been in WWII not Korea but I digress). He never wore a ring and most of my friends' dads didn't (though he had one).

However, both brothers do.

 

I'm growing weary of this no one can ever leave Downton. What is it, the Hotel California of England? I love Tom, he's always been one of my favorite characters, but I kind of eyerolled at his return. I was hoping he would make a life for himself in America, maybe remarry. (pleasepleaseplease don't pair him with Mary)

 

 

 

How come there's electric light all over the place and the ladysmaid had to do her alterations by candlelight?

 

Yes, I was REALLY looking forward to the outside world via Tom. Fellows' hero-worshipping of the aristos is all too clear here. There would have been a big Irish community in Boston. What is so great about Downton and how are they his family? He has a mum. Of course, sure, it's nice to have lots of room and money and all, why not just be honest about it?

 

Re the light: could the electricity switch light up several rooms at once? If she only needed a small pool of light I could see her not wanting to turn on the whole light.

 

But we're probably overthinking it and it just made a nicer picture.

Edited January 18, 2016 by lucindabelle

[JudyObscure]

I think offering to come back and help was sweet and showed an ability to be flexible.

I agree about Bertie, he didn't seem like a desperate loser to me, but a game young man willing to pitch in for a lark. A night getting a magazine ready for press might sound much more interesting than drinking at his club, even apart from coming to the aid of an attractive damsel in distress.

The old Thomas must really be gone or he would have viewed the half-senile gentleman as ripe for the picking. Would he even know if the valuables gradually went missing by night, if Thomas pretended interest in his stories by day? Thomas might even have got himself in the will for some of the remaining funds.

[Hanahope]

So I wasn't the only one that noticed dear Tom put on a few pounds while in America.. 

 

I don't think Tom is Mary's end-game, she won't marry again unless its for love, since she really doesn't have to.

 

I'm glad that Mrs. Hughes got the wedding and reception she wanted.

 

I too don't quite understand why Barrow feels he has to find a new job quick, one would think Carson would retire soon.  But Carson is sure pushing him out.  I had to wonder if that bit of dialogue by the old Lord dreaming about how it 'used to be' with the ladies and their jewels twinkling in the candlelight is a little reference to Fellow's new upcoming show, The Gilded Age.  Its about the late 1800s, yes?

 

I agree that Barrow would have better luck trying to find a position in London, since more and more 'big houses' are shutting down.

 

It was nice to see Edith be confident and competent.  Maybe she will get a happy ending, we can only hope.

[lucindabelle]

Can anyone explain why a coat was a better choice than a dress? If Cora's too tall, surely all that means is taking up the hem? It's not as though Cora and Mrs. Hughes are vastly different otherwise (as is clear from the coat).

[SusanSunflower]

I suspect that Thomas had no interest in being in service in any household where HE would not have the benefit of the labors of the other staff ... He would be butler as manager of the char woman and the outdoors man ... Did the old man even have a cook? 

I'm glad I"m not alone in being confused as to why Thomas believes he's about to get the boot ... or why Carson seems so eager to see the back of him (considering 6 years of bad deeds unpunished) -- even the suggestion that he might have to accept being demoted to from "under butler" to "footman" at the next vacancy... 

 

I was mostly struck by how despite the constant litany that "times they are a'changin'" very little has changed at Downton ... a toaster, telephone and vacuum cleaner do not "change" make, even a dead husband/son-in-law and a dead daughter  and the introduction of three grandchildren. All told, not.so.much., hardly at all. 

[Constantinople]

I'm growing weary of this no one can ever leave Downton. What is it, the Hotel California of England?

On a dark Yorkshire highway

Cool wind in my hair

Warm smell of Patmore's cooking

Rising up through the air

..........

So I called Mr Carson,

"Please bring me my wine"

He said, "We haven't had that spirit here since eighteen sixty-nine"

[RedHawk]

My father was born in 1913 and wore a wedding ring. Until he was married he wore his college ring. So could the ring question be one of class? And also preference in a time when many men did not wear one, especially those who did manual labor? Carson doesn't do that sort of work but perhaps as Mrs. Hughes could not afford a ring for him, he chose not to wear one rather than going to the expense of paying for one for himself. 

[P3pp3rb1rd]

 

To have Mrs Hughes, Anna and Mrs Patmore in Cora's room trying on her clothes made no sense anyway. It only adds conflict and drah-ma!  What would have made much more sense would be to bring the problem to Baxter, who is, after all, in charge of Cora's clothes, and have her bring some potential choices down to the servant's hall.

 

Mrs Hughes is THE HOUSEKEEPER, Anna is MARY'S lady-maid, and Mrs Patmore is THE COOK. For those three to be riffling through the COUNTESS's clothes and taking one or more to be altered for the housekeeper is unspeakably rude and presumptuous! They must have known that Cora wouldn't fire them, because the household wouldn't be able to withstand the blow. But clothes, even if one has many of them, are intensely personal. And the class difference between the trio and Cora is immense! Can you imagine the cook, housekeeper, and lady's maid from Violet the Dowager's time attacking her closet unannounced and dragging away a few prizes? Violet would call the police!

 

I think Fellowes is showing how British class structure is collapsing in the twenties. The raid on Cora's aristocratic clothes is symbolic of the common classes (or the Socialists and Communists) gearing up to usurp social roles and take over power and history in the thirties and forties, a time of huge upheaval in Britain and the world.

[RedHawk]

I suspect that Thomas had no interest in being in service in any household where HE would not have the benefit of the labors of the other staff ... He would be butler as manager of the char woman and the outdoors man ... Did the old man even have a cook? 

I'm glad I"m not alone in being confused as to why Thomas believes he's about to get the boot ... or why Carson seems so eager to see the back of him (considering 6 years of bad deeds unpunished) -- even the suggestion that he might have to accept being demoted to from "under butler" to "footman" at the next vacancy... 

 

I was mostly struck by how despite the constant litany that "times they are a'changin'" very little has changed at Downton ... a toaster, telephone and vacuum cleaner do not "change" make, even a dead husband/son-in-law and a dead daughter  and the introduction of three grandchildren. All told, not.so.much., hardly at all. 

I suspect Thomas had no interest in working for a man who was obviously out of touch with reality in several ways, and who was also going broke so likely would stop paying him at some point. The house was falling apart, full of dust and debris, and the owner was crazy. Thomas would be given a room in a frigid attic with a leaky roof. Who but the most desperate would take a job working there? He's not happy at Downton right now, but he's comfortable, does work that isn't too difficult, and is getting paid regularly.

Edited January 18, 2016 by RedHawk

[Roseanna]

Mary did try and tell/ask Cora, but Cora was so preoccupied with the hospital drama.  What I found strange was that Mary knew that the three servants were up in Cora's room trying on her things.  After Cora just flitted in and left, Mary should have gotten up off her lazy butt and chased Cora down to tell her.  But I suppose Mary thought it would be OK.  I would have thought it was OK too.  I thought it was completely out of character for Cora to blow her top over the borrowing of a dress.  Mary wanted to loan Mrs. Hughes a dress out of kindness. 

 

 

Mary may have done it out of kindness, or rather to right the wrong that she had earlier done to Mrs Hughes and because she, knowing Cora’s kindness, supposed she had done it if she had been present. But because Mary didn’t own the dress and she had no right to loan it, she should have made sure that it was she who told Cora, in case she had made the decision her mother didn’t approve.

Also, I know that the mistresses gave servants their old clothes.

 

But I doubt that Cora, because the class barrier of the time, could have used again the dress that the whole village had seen on Mrs Hughes. She would rather have given it her as she indeed did.

 

Also, considering the class barrier at that time, when Cora saw Mrs Hughes try her dress without leave, as she believed, she probably interpreted as the personal insult: her servant had stepped over her role. That made the dress “damaged goods” in her mind.

[blackwing]

I suspect Thomas had no interest in working for a man who was obviously out of touch with reality in several ways, and who was obviously going broke so likely would stop paying him at some point. The house was falling apart, full of dust and debris, and the owner was crazy. Thomas would be given a room in a frigid attic with a leaky roof. Who but the most desperate would take a job working there? He's not happy at Downton right now, but he's comfortable, does work that isn't too difficult, and is getting paid regularly.

I agree that he's unhappy at Downton, but in his mind, that will be ending soon.  He needs to find a new position.  But it seems to me that Thomas wants a position where he can have as much power as possible while doing as little as possible.  We do see him constantly asking Carson what he can do, but I think that's only because he is trying to demonstrate that he still has utility and needs to be kept around.

 

I have had a hard time understanding exactly what it is that Thomas does nowadays.  I recall him bringing out a tray of drinks in the opening scene of this season when Robert and Mary were about to go hunting.  But apart from that, what does he do?  It seems that Andy and Molesley, as the footmen, assist with dinner.  I truly don't recall Thomas doing much work at all.  We always see him sitting at the big table in the servants' dining room, complaining about things or reading advertisements for new jobs.

 

The other thing I don't understand is that if Carson hates him so much, why doesn't he (or Robert) actively help Thomas to find a new job?  It's very evident that Thomas is unhappy.  None of the staff like him, and none of the household seem to care one way or another about him either.

[ZoloftBlob]

The old Thomas must really be gone or he would have viewed the half-senile gentleman as ripe for the picking. Would he even know if the valuables gradually went missing by night, if Thomas pretended interest in his stories by day? Thomas might even have got himself in the will for some of the remaining funds.

 

I genuinely thought the bones of that place were picked pretty well clean. And that place would have been depressing as hell.

 

The other thing I don't understand is that if Carson hates him so much, why doesn't he (or Robert) actively help Thomas to find a new job?

 

Because Carson is the worst sort of petty tyrant boss. He's shown that again and again and not just with Thomas. He delights in turning the screws on people under him.

Edited January 18, 2016 by ZoloftBlob

[bugsmum]

As much as I loved the scene with Thomas and Sir Moldy Aristo, once the old man started waxing rhapsodic about the ladies and their diamonds all I could hear in my head was Rose telling poor Hazel Bellamy that Lady Marjorie always said, "no diamonds in the country..."

[RedHawk]

I genuinely thought the bones of that place were picked pretty well clean. And that place would have been depressing as hell.

 

Because Carson is the worst sort of petty tyrant boss. He's shown that again and again and not just with Thomas. He delights in turning the screws on people under him.

My dislike for Carson was sealed when he treated Moseley so cruelly over hiring him back at Downton. Moseley had shown the grit to go and do manual labor putting hot asphalt on the roads, and he wasn't young then either. He had the right to keep some of his pride yet Carson had to try to strip it away. UGH. I wish Mrs. Hughes HAD had second thoughts.

Edited January 18, 2016 by RedHawk

[Llywela]

I too don't quite understand why Barrow feels he has to find a new job quick

 

I'm glad I"m not alone in being confused as to why Thomas believes he's about to get the boot ...

While Thomas hasn't been formally given notice, both Carson and Robert have made it clear that they are downsizing the staff and the position of under-butler is superfluous to requirements. That's why he believes he's about to get the boot - because he effectively is. He has been actively encouraged to start looking for other work because his current job isn't going to exist for much longer, and is really only being maintained for as long as it takes him to make other arrangements (with Carson heavily implying that the clock is ticking).

[Mrsjumbo]

Id rather Mr Mosely & Andrew get the sack & let Thomas do their duties than see Thomas go. He has seniority (though probably would feel it was beneath him).

[Diane M]

I agree that Barrow would have better luck trying to find a position in London, since more and more 'big houses' are shutting down.

And he's more apt to find a romantic partner in the big city.

 

[SusanSunflower]

That's one of Thomas' problems -- he's made it so very very clear that he considered everything beneath him -- service, generally ... but also everyone mostly due to his seniority.

 

Part of Fellowes' infernal redundancy means Bates and Anna have their inheritance, Carson and Hughes have their nest egg, Daisy has the farm, and Thomas is an object of pity ... Shouldn't Thomas have a nest egg of his own (supplemented with whatever he has pilfered, stolen or extorted over the years) or did he blow it all on his attempts at joining the blackmarket? 

Edited January 18, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[ZoloftBlob]

My dislike for Carson was sealed when he treated Moseley so cruelly over hiring him back at Downton. Moseley had shown the grit to go and do manual labor putting hot asphalt on the roads, and he wasn't young then either. He had the right to keep some of his pride yet Carson had to try to strip it away.

 

Exactly - Mosesly was trying to salvage his own pride a little and its not as though he lost his job over being incompetant, he was valet for years to Mary's nameless unmentional husband. ANd Carson was an utter prick over it. Thomas at least earned some of the bad rep by being a thief and an utter dick (the hospital stuff proved Thomas basically wants to be Carson, which means he wants to be a jerk to his underlings too) but Mosesly is a mouse.

[mightycrone]

While I cheer the fact that Edith shows up at the office at all, her "soap opera" treatment of the last-minute magazine layout (with a cute, eligible man to help her) isn't what I'd hoped for.  I have nothing against Bertie, or the introduction of any romantic interest for Edith, but for him to swoop in and save the day doesn't feel quite like the victory that was presented.  

 

Mrs. Carson, nee Hughes, you looked so much more than "tidy."  Your friends pulling together to make it happen love you as much as your groom does.  : )

 

 

Edited for clarity.

Edited January 19, 2016 by mightycrone

[blackwing]

Id rather Mr Mosely & Andrew get the sack & let Thomas do their duties than see Thomas go. He has seniority (though probably would feel it was beneath him).

Yes, he has seniority, but everything and everyone is beneath him.  He seems to have an incredibly high opinion of himself.  I just don't understand his desire to stay in Yorkshire, but I suppose part of that is because we really don't know much about him.  I don't know if he is from the area, or has parents or other family in the area, or what.  Why not move to London and get a job working in a hotel or restaurant?  He could get a fresh start and meet new people that don't despise him.

 

When he went to see that fading aristocrat, it was clear that the job wasn't right, because the house was on the downturn and it was only a matter of time before it collapsed.  But I feel like he was very contemptuous of the position even before it got to that point.  He seemed shocked that the only other servant was Mrs. So and So downstairs, who I took to be the cook.  So that meant he would have to do everything.  And Thomas doesn't like working.  I actually did think that we were going to see a storyline where he would get adopted.  He seemed to perk up when the man mentioned his sons died in the war.  He tried to portray himself as a war hero who courageously got injured fighting for the crown, to ingratiate himself with the man and to possibly get him to make him his heir.  But then the truth about the house was revealed, and like so many other things in life, he decided that it was beneath him.

 

I also laughed when Thomas read that the advertisement said it was a "position of trust".  Since when can Thomas be trusted with anything?

[mightycrone]

So I wasn't the only one that noticed dear Tom put on a few pounds while in America.. 

 

 

 

The portions are enormous!

[lucindabelle]

Yes they allowed Mrs. Hughes to look quite pretty.

And her hair seemed less grey and downright auburn!

[magdalene]

Like most of the long-term characters Thomas is a victim of the capricious plot fairy aka Fellowes.  When it suited the plot fairy Thomas has been a manipulative schemer who always lands on his feet, a misunderstood  and unhappy in love woobie who takes a beating for his unrequited love, etc. etc.  Somehow Collier has made this character work for me and has me rooting for him. This is in spite of Fellowes, not because of him.

 

Realistically Thomas should have no problem finding a good job.  He is a younger man with good looks and a skill set that would be in demand by the newly rich.  American millionaires were always seeking skilled butlers.

[jrlr]

I'm a pretty jaded watcher, but I didn't mind Edith's budding romance at all.  There was a hint of interest in Bertie when he was at the hunting party last year, so the serendipitous nature of their re-meet and what followed was just logical enough for me.  I think I'm in the tiny minority here, but I actually root for Edith, who's had some seriously bad luck in the past; I hope this is being set up so that Edith - for once in her life - can be happy.  And I love that Mary is starting to realize (and really hating) that her sister is becoming a modern woman with real life success - let Mary keep the pigs, and Edith become a powerhouse publisher!  Of course it was mostly completely unrealistic, but was having both Anna and Bates be on the hook for a murder for so long was pretty silly, too.  

 

I mostly watch DA to see Maggie Smith and Penelope Wilton, but I also actually like the sudsy, angst-filled world of these rich folks, unlike the rich folks of the contemporary world.  Watched the opening episode of Billions (the contemporary rich) right after DA, and the contrast had my head spinning - also thought Billions was abysmal, but that's beside the point.  DA always looks gorgeous, which helps, and the clothes!  I can't remember if it was Mary or Cora who wore this amazing green and black dress (with straps off the shoulder) last night, but it was jaw-droppingly stunning.  

[Constantinople]

I hope it turns out well for the Carsons.

After briefly reviewing the other Downton marriages that have occurred during the course of the series, I'm not particularly hopeful.

Daisy - William (groom dead)

Anna - (John) Bates (groom falsely imprisoned for murdering his first wife / bride main suspect in murder of her rapist)

Sybil - Tom (bride dead)

Mary - Matthew (groom dead)

Edith - Anthony (don't ask)

Rose - Atticus (too early to tell)

[Diane M]

So Anna is pregnant again?  Seems rather soon after her miscarriage.  

[RedHawk]

Id rather Mr Mosely & Andrew get the sack & let Thomas do their duties than see Thomas go. He has seniority (though probably would feel it was beneath him).

Yes, I don't quite understand why suddenly Thomas is pushed to go when Andrew was just hired months ago. Thomas has seniority and has worked as a footman so could go back to doing more footman work if Andrew were let go. He might grumble vaguely (or openly) downstairs, but he'd do the work because he doesn't want to be unemployed. Andrew is the one who seems superfluous. 

 

Ok, the Family (and the downstairs staff) know Thomas isn't exactly trustworthy but they also believe he's done good turns for them at various times and proved his loyalty. Maybe we're to assume that Robert and Carson see their opportunity to get rid of Thomas for once and all, since he's not the ideal servant (and he is one of those nasty homosexuals after all), and figure Andrew will work out fine even though he's not very experienced. He's younger and cheaper, too, and will be grateful that he's still got a job so will work harder for less and not act so superior. That's how modern companies do downsizing in America, after all.

 

Perhaps Robert's thought is that, with Thomas gone, he will elevate Moseley to butler when Carson (soon I hope!) retires. I don't want Moseley to be turned out -- I hope he does get his chance to be a teacher.

 

I guess if I were feeling kindly toward Robert, he's assuming that Thomas can get a good job elsewhere, where Andrew's and Moseley's chances are much more slim. I wish Robert would then offer to help Thomas, and not simply let him fend for himself.

Edited January 19, 2016 by RedHawk

[photo fox]

[Thomas]He seemed shocked that the only other servant was Mrs. So and So downstairs, who I took to be the cook.  So that meant he would have to do everything.  And Thomas doesn't like working.  I actually did think that we were going to see a storyline where he would get adopted.  He seemed to perk up when the man mentioned his sons died in the war.  He tried to portray himself as a war hero who courageously got injured fighting for the crown, to ingratiate himself with the man and to possibly get him to make him his heir.

I have to defend Thomas a bit here. True, he's not the hardest worker, and he's often a jerk. But I think even St. Anna would balk at the idea of trying to keep that house all by herself (with one other part-time person). The sheer size of the place, even if it hadn't already been allowed to get so "far gone", would make the sturdiest person hesitate. Add to that the fact that the old fellow seemed to get more nutty as the conversation went on, apparently had no desire to try to make any changes (just assuming things would magically go back the way they were), and didn't care enough about his own environment to even stack up the crap in his office, and I can't imagine that anyone would want the job.

As for the rest, I can't imagine even Thomas would think Sir Diamonds on the Stairs would make a footman his heir. I thought he just was hoping that having "served" in the war would make the old man predisposed to hire him.

I honestly thought Thomas did him rather a kindness by "admitting" to being progressive or whatever so the old gentleman could reject him.

[Ina123]

I've re-watched the episode and I cracked up again during the scene where Cora comes downstairs to see Mrs. Hughes to apologize. Mrs. Patmore is also there looking from one to another and at the floor as if amazed that Cora is even there. Her look of amazement is hilarious.