Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Umbelina]

https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2016/06/3-reasons-why-littlefinger-is-way-worse-in-the-sho.html'

Someone posted this link somewhere in the forum, I thought it was this thread, but apparently not.  Anyway, THANK YOU!  I've been saying all of this forever.  I like the actor but honestly the writing for Littlefinger is barely a feather above that of the cartoon Snidley Whiplash. 

This article explains why I like Littlefinger so much in the books. He's one of the very few who is intelligent and has a reason to want to rise in a feudal world above his few acres of stony land on a windy shore and a couple of sheep, with a few families living in hovels.  Show version has been reduced to something barely resembling his book self, mostly as a way to get naked, exploited, and tortured women shoved down our throats.

[MrWhyt]

On 6/22/2016 at 6:40 AM, Notwisconsin said:

The Paperbacks for the last two books have been split into parts one and two each. Why can't they just do THAT and let GRRM go at his own pace for TWoW part 2?

that's assuming TWoW part 1 is completed. 

[Constantinople]

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2016/06/3-reasons-why-littlefinger-is-way-worse-in-the-sho.html'

Someone posted this link somewhere in the forum, I thought it was this thread, but apparently not.  Anyway, THANK YOU!  I've been saying all of this forever.  I like the actor but honestly the writing for Littlefinger is barely a feather above that of the cartoon Snidley Whiplash. 

This article explains why I like Littlefinger so much in the books. He's one of the very few who is intelligent and has a reason to want to rise in a feudal world above his few acres of stony land on a windy shore and a couple of sheep, with a few families living in hovels.  Show version has been reduced to something barely resembling his book self, mostly as a way to get naked, exploited, and tortured women shoved down our throats.

Unfortunately, that article quotes the part of Littlefinger's backstory that's most ludicrous:  increasing crown revenues 10x, no one caring who was the Master of Coin, no financial controls.  Medieval England may have been Medieval, but they still had a sophisticated treasury/exchequer with financial controls.  There are treatises about this sort of thing going back to the 12th century, and that's just what survived.  The House of Commons went up like a torch in 1834 when they started burning 7 centuries worth of tally sticks used for tax purposes.  Given how unrealistic BookLittlefinger's background in finance is, I'm not overly concerned if TVLittllefinger isn't a carbon copy.

[jjjmoss]

SAG Ensemble noms for the series after this year, I think:

5 – Dany, Jaime, Tyrion, Jon, Cersei, Queen Sansa, Arya…Jaime missed much of S2, the only snubbed season.

4 – Jorah, Theon, Missandei

3 – Varys, Sandor, Selmy, Melisandre, Sam, Brienne

2 – Pypar, Catelyn, Bronn, Littlefinger, Joffrey, Pycelle, Bran, Robb, Grenn, Davos, Daario, Tormund, Grey Worm, Tywin, Margaery, Gilly, Ramsay, Edd, Podrick

1 – Irri, Robert, Ned, Mordane, Cassel, Rakharo, Drogo, Rast, Doreah, Qotho, Luwin (S1)

Talisa, Orell, Gendry, Thoros, Shae, Ygritte, Roose, Anguy (S3)

Slynt, Oberyn (S4)

Meryn Trant, Bowen Marsh, Stannis, Selyse, Othell, Hizdahr, Olly, Jaqen, Thorne (S5)

Tommen, High Sparrow, Waif, Gregor, Yara (S6)

 

POV chapters through book 5:

47 Tyrion, 42 Jon, 33 Arya, 31 Dany, [25 Cat], 24 Sansa, 21 Bran, 17 Jaime - Cersei bumps Bran who is way lower on the show.

[15 Ned], 13 Theon & Davos, 12 Cersei

10 Sam, 8 Brienne, 4 Selmy & Victarion & Asha & Quentyn - Hmm, well Jorah/Missandei are sidekicks who don’t necessarily need a voice. Varys is supposed to be an enigma, perhaps Melisandre as well (plus she serves as Davos’s foil and Jon’s untrustworthy ally). The show seems to emphasize Sandor more than the books.

The show’s a bit weird about Davos. Victarion and Quentyn don’t exist. Asha/Yara only is mostly a deal on the show when attached with Theon. 

If you look at the T10, it's Dany's sidekicks for the show, as opposed to Bran + Davos for the books.

[SeanC]

Episode count is an imperfect measure of character importance. Missandei, for instance, is, as you say, one of Dany's sidekicks.  She appears when Dany does.  Her scenes are rarely about her.  Bran, conversely, has appeared in fewer episodes than her in every season, but his scenes are generally about him (at least notionally).

[Funzlerks]

Why does Missandei's actress get a solo title card?  She is as exciting as the inside of a cereal box.

[SeanC]

42 minutes ago, Funzlerks said:

Why does Missandei's actress get a solo title card?  She is as exciting as the inside of a cereal box.

Whatever one's opinion of her performance/character, she's evidently got a good agent, and, especially importantly, is getting decent buzz outside the show (e.g., she's part of the Fast and the Furious ensemble now).  That's all you need.

[Umbelina]

About the forthcoming books, does anyone see anything they can use from the sneak peak chapters from WoW, because I don't.  Frankly what GRRM has written so far shows

Spoiler

no forward movement towards resolution of anything, at least to me. 

Edited June 29, 2016 by Umbelina

[jjjmoss]

Well, given how big the events involving Cersei/Jaime, Jon/Sansa, and Dany/Tyrion are by the finale, we may have gotten to the end of book 6 for the most part.

[Eyes High]

Here are my guesses for the book spoilers from Season 6:

North/Wall/Beyond the Wall: Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna. Bran leaves the cave and heads south. Hodor means "hold the door" (confirmed by D&D). Jon is resurrected by Melisandre and leaves the NW. Sansa goes north with Vale forces and is passed over for leadership of the North in favour of Jon (legitimized via Robb's will in the books). Rickon dies or is irrelevant to the Starks' endgame. House Bolton is wiped out (probably thanks to Stannis' forces in the books) and the Starks retake Winterfell.

KL: Margaery and Tommen die, and possibly Mace, Loras, Lancel, Kevan, and the High Sparrow as well.

Arya: Arya leaves Braavos and the FM without being further beholden to them and successfully makes it back to Westeros.

Riverlands: Sandor is alive. Walder Frey dies.

Essos: Dany gets the dothraki to fight for her invasion and gets some Greyjoy ships. Dany names Tyrion Hand of the Queen. Dany leaves Meereen for good after the Meereen quagmire is resolved somehow.

Dorne: Doran dies.

I think everything else is either streamlining--Jon and Sansa taking over for Stannis in fighting Ramsay, Yara and Theon taking ships to Dany instead of Victarion, etc.--or straight-up invention, like Cersei's method for disposing of her enemies, or Benjen being Coldhands. D&D all but said that the Sept explosion was something they come up with themselves, and they were very careful to avoid the suggestion that Benjen = Coldhands was a book spoiler.

[Advance35]

How is GRRM going to get through ALL of that AND cover the White Walker threat and Dany hitting Westeros with only one book remaining.  He always said he could tell this story in 7 books.  Did he issue a statement saying we would get more?  Not that we'll ever see them.

More hat tipping to D&D for trimming the fat as it were.

[Unknown poster]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Here are my guesses for the book spoilers from Season 6:

North/Wall/Beyond the Wall: Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna. Bran leaves the cave and heads south. Hodor means "hold the door" (confirmed by D&D). Jon is resurrected by Melisandre and leaves the NW. Sansa goes north with Vale forces and is passed over for leadership of the North in favour of Jon (legitimized via Robb's will in the books). Rickon dies or is irrelevant to the Starks' endgame. House Bolton is wiped out (probably thanks to Stannis' forces in the books) and the Starks retake Winterfell.

KL: Margaery and Tommen die, and possibly Mace, Loras, Lancel, Kevan, and the High Sparrow as well.

Arya: Arya leaves Braavos and the FM without being further beholden to them and successfully makes it back to Westeros.

Riverlands: Sandor is alive. Walder Frey dies.

Essos: Dany gets the dothraki to fight for her invasion and gets some Greyjoy ships. Dany names Tyrion Hand of the Queen. Dany leaves Meereen for good after the Meereen quagmire is resolved somehow.

Dorne: Doran dies.

I think everything else is either streamlining--Jon and Sansa taking over for Stannis in fighting Ramsay, Yara and Theon taking ships to Dany instead of Victarion, etc.--or straight-up invention, like Cersei's method for disposing of her enemies, or Benjen being Coldhands. D&D all but said that the Sept explosion was something they come up with themselves, and they were very careful to avoid the suggestion that Benjen = Coldhands was a book spoiler.

Just a couple points:

Kevan dies at the end of Adwd.

I think GRRM has stated that Benjen and Coldhands are two different people. 

[WearyTraveler]

I may be remembering wrong, but I think I read an interview with GRRM a while back where he mentioned he might have to split book 7 in 2.

What I do remember clearly is that GRRM did shoot down the theory that Benjen was Coldhands.  A page with notes from his editor and Martin's responses to the notes was made public.  In one of the notes the editor asks if Coldhands is Benjen and Martin answers with a dry NO!

D&D might have come up with the sept burning by themselves, but I wouldn't rule it out of the books.  We know that there are caches of wildfire still stashed all over the city because the only people who knew the exact location were Aerys and his last Hand (a pyromancer).  We also know that Cersei burned the Tower of the Hand using Wildfire and she was quite pleased with herself there, drinking in the flames with gusto.  It's not hard to see how she could end up burning down KL in the books. Maybe Martin didn't specifically tell D&D about it, but the hints are there for the readers to put two and two together.

[Hecate7]

On 6/28/2016 at 5:45 AM, Umbelina said:

https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2016/06/3-reasons-why-littlefinger-is-way-worse-in-the-sho.html'

Someone posted this link somewhere in the forum, I thought it was this thread, but apparently not.  Anyway, THANK YOU!  I've been saying all of this forever.  I like the actor but honestly the writing for Littlefinger is barely a feather above that of the cartoon Snidley Whiplash. 

This article explains why I like Littlefinger so much in the books. He's one of the very few who is intelligent and has a reason to want to rise in a feudal world above his few acres of stony land on a windy shore and a couple of sheep, with a few families living in hovels.  Show version has been reduced to something barely resembling his book self, mostly as a way to get naked, exploited, and tortured women shoved down our throats.

Book Baelish is still responsible for Jeyne Poole, a girl younger than Sansa, being trained as a prostitute and sold to the Boltons as fake Arya. I was intrigued that he was kind to his servants back home, but that's counterbalanced by his brutality to his employees and his complicity in the Red Wedding. Severus Snape Baelish ain't.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Hecate7
Because someone mysteriously thinks "he" refers to them, as opposed to Baelish.

[Hecate7]

On 6/28/2016 at 5:45 AM, Umbelina said:

https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2016/06/3-reasons-why-littlefinger-is-way-worse-in-the-sho.html'

Someone posted this link somewhere in the forum, I thought it was this thread, but apparently not.  Anyway, THANK YOU!  I've been saying all of this forever.  I like the actor but honestly the writing for Littlefinger is barely a feather above that of the cartoon Snidley Whiplash. 

This article explains why I like Littlefinger so much in the books. He's one of the very few who is intelligent and has a reason to want to rise in a feudal world above his few acres of stony land on a windy shore and a couple of sheep, with a few families living in hovels.  Show version has been reduced to something barely resembling his book self, mostly as a way to get naked, exploited, and tortured women shoved down our throats.

Book Baelish is still responsible for Jeyne Poole, a girl younger than Sansa, being trained as a prostitute and sold to the Boltons as fake Arya. I was intrigued that he was kind to his servants back home, but that's counterbalanced by his brutality to his employees and his complicity in the Red Wedding. Severus Snape he ain't.

[Umbelina]

I know I'm not, and I don't think the article is saying that Littlefinger is some kind of good guy.  He's not a good guy.  He's willing to do anything for his goals.  He's more than just the whorehouse keeper that the show generally chooses to portray though, much, much more.  He's much more of a Tywin than a Bolton or Greyjoy though, and his actions are right in line with the other "great houses" on this show.  He doesn't act from cruelty, his acts are always much more calculated towards a goal.  He hasn't ordered fields burned, peasants raped, and their shabby homes destroyed just because he can, but Tywin did.  He hasn't burned thousands alive as Cersei just did.

So I think he gets a lot more hate because he's an upstart, were he simply another leader of a great house, he wouldn't get half the hate.  That always shocks me because he is, by far, the most modern, and most American of all the characters.  He's earning his own way, every single step of it.  He began poor, though nominally noble if your definition of that includes being born in a hovel, but he is now in command of much more than a stony stepp with a few sheep and a half dozen "subjects."  He's played his "betters" every step of the way.

He will fail, and that's OK, he should, or rather, he "should" as much as any of the other assholes on screen, which is most of the cast.  Still, I think the amount of hate he gets is bewildering, and the amount of support for the other, equally ruthless leaders is bizarre.  So what about Jenye?  Does she matter more than the thousands of peasants Tywin ordered raped, or the thousands Dany's hoard has robbed, raped, and killed?

[Advance35]

I also think Baelish may come off more mysterious and oblique because we see him through the eyes of people he is effectively fooling.  Ned, Catelyn, Tyrion, Sansa, Cersei.   In his eyes, they are a collection of children he easily plays his tricks on.   He likely would come off as mustache twirly if we had a Varys POV.

The transfer to the television medium has forced the showrunners to kind of raise things forward somewhat.  I think that's understandable.

[Constantinople]

15 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

What I do remember clearly is that GRRM did shoot down the theory that Benjen was Coldhands.  A page with notes from his editor and Martin's responses to the notes was made public.  In one of the notes the editor asks if Coldhands is Benjen and Martin answers with a dry NO!

That's why I now think of TV Benjen as "Slightly Chilly Hands" instead of "Coldhands".

[Umbelina]

http://www.popsugar.com/entertainment/How-Old-Characters-Game-Thrones-34677892?stream_view=1

This is kind of cool about the ages, show vs. books.  More of them at link, I picked mostly the kids here.  It's bizarre that GRRM started them so young and then abandoned the time jump, maybe now he's spinning his wheels in the story simply to give the characters time to grow up?

Arya

• Age at the start of the books: 9
• Williams's age in real life: 19

Jon

• Age at the start of the books: 14
• Harington's age in real life: 29

Tommen

• Age at the start of the books: 7
• Chapman's age in real life: 18

Margaery

• Age at the start of the books: 16
• Dormer's age in real life: 34

Sansa

• Age at the start of the books: 11
• Turner's age in real life: 20

Dany

• Age at the start of the books: 13-14
• Clarke's age in real life: 29

Bran

• Age at the start of the books: 7
• Hempstead-Wright's age in real life: 17

Theon

• Age at the start of the books: 19
• Allen's age in real life: 29

Joffrey

• Age at the start of the books: 12
• Gleeson's age in real life: 23

[WearyTraveler]

Is that the age the actors are now or the age they were when they started?

[Chris24601]

1 hour ago, WearyTraveler said:

Is that the age the actors are now or the age they were when they started?

Their age now... Sophie Turner was actually 19 while filming season six.

Generally speaking, except for Robb, Jon and Dany, the kids ages were roughly in the ballpark of what they aged them up to be for the story in season one (Sansa was 13, Arya 11, Bran 9, Rickon 6). Its the six years the show has been filming that have taken the kids from being noticeably children to the young adults they are now.

I suspect the reason they went for actors in their twenties for Robb, Jon and Dany is because of the sex scenes in their respective stories (I know local laws and Maise's age at the time of filming was the reason the prostitutes in the Braavos brothel scene where she finds and murders Trant weren't nude like they've been in practically every other brothel scene in the series).

Its actually one of the reasons I actually would have preferred them to rely more on suggested nudity and fade-outs, at least for those three, as some of the stories would have made a lot more sense if the actors were clearly 14-16 years old during season one (ex. Jon's broodiness or Robb's foregoing his promise to Walder Frey over sex with an attractive girl for example) instead of clearly looking like they were in their mid-twenties.

[Haleth]

22 hours ago, Constantinople said:

What I do remember clearly is that GRRM did shoot down the theory that Benjen was Coldhands.  A page with notes from his editor and Martin's responses to the notes was made public.  In one of the notes the editor asks if Coldhands is Benjen and Martin answers with a dry NO!

Right.  Bran certainly would have recognized his uncle.  Coldhands clearly is not Benjen, but for the show they used Benjen as a stand in, someone the audience would remember (mostly) instead of introducing another character for 2 episodes.

[Audreythe2nd]

Quote

 

How is GRRM going to get through ALL of that AND cover the White Walker threat and Dany hitting Westeros with only one book remaining.  He always said he could tell this story in 7 books.  Did he issue a statement saying we would get more?  Not that we'll ever see them.

More hat tipping to D&D for trimming the fat as it were.

 

Not only that, he's got PoV chapters about Arianne who doesn't exist in the show, about Aeron who also doesn't exist (well he does, but not as a PoV), the whole Young Griff thing to contend with, a way more complicated Dorne story to deal with, a Stannis who is still alive, a Tyrion who hasn't met Daenerys yet, AND a total mystery as to where Jaime and Brienne are and where they are going to pop up. It's actually a mess. As much as Dorne in the show totally sucks, D&D seem to understand that its function can exist primarily to provide Dany forces for Westeros and that's it. George's major mistake was introducing so many characters in Dorne, and having the Young Griff thing be a thing at all. Because now he has a disaster on his hands if he really wants to finish this in two books.

[WearyTraveler]

7 hours ago, Haleth said:

Right.  Bran certainly would have recognized his uncle.  Coldhands clearly is not Benjen, but for the show they used Benjen as a stand in, someone the audience would remember (mostly) instead of introducing another character for 2 episodes.

I should have quoted the posts I was replying to, so my intent would be clearer.  I know all of what you're saying.  The reason I talked about Coldhands was because someone made this comment:

Quote

D&D all but said that the Sept explosion was something they come up with themselves, and they were very careful to avoid the suggestion that Benjen = Coldhands was a book spoiler.

and I wanted to point out that the fact that show Benjen played a role similar to book Coldhands is not actually a book spoiler because Martin shot that theory down even before the book where Coldhands first appears was published.

[arjumand]

14 hours ago, Audreythe2nd said:

Not only that, he's got PoV chapters about Arianne who doesn't exist in the show, about Aeron who also doesn't exist (well he does, but not as a PoV), the whole Young Griff thing to contend with, a way more complicated Dorne story to deal with, a Stannis who is still alive, a Tyrion who hasn't met Daenerys yet, AND a total mystery as to where Jaime and Brienne are and where they are going to pop up. It's actually a mess. As much as Dorne in the show totally sucks, D&D seem to understand that its function can exist primarily to provide Dany forces for Westeros and that's it. George's major mistake was introducing so many characters in Dorne, and having the Young Griff thing be a thing at all. Because now he has a disaster on his hands if he really wants to finish this in two books.

Man, that whole Young Griff business is driving me insane. I hadn't read the books cover to cover, because there's characters I don't care about, so I read the epilogue to Dance with Dragons, and Varys is going on about Aegon, and I'm like WHAT. If anyone ever analyses google searches for the lolz, they're gonna have a good old giggle when they read my "why is Varys talking about Aegon like he's still alive?". No wonder D&D left him out - it just makes the whole thing immeasurably more complicated. I mean, whoever Young Griff is, he clearly thinks he's Aegon Targaryen.

I prefer show Varys, tbh - not that I mind Qyburn getting all those kids to kill Pycelle. Having just read the Sansa chapters when she's trying to survive after Ned's arrested, he is such a fucking asshole. She's a child, and he's trying to get her killed. Good riddance, Pycelle.

Thing is, even though Stannis is still alive in the books, the story at the end of ADWD is headed towards the 'we're dying, the horses are dying, let's burn people'.

I thought Brienne was caught and almost hanged by LSH - and I am so glad that bitch isn't in the show - and seems to have agreed to lead Jaime into LSH's trap rather than watch Podrick hang. I can't express how much I hate this storyline for Brienne in the books - at least on the show she partly succeeds in her quest. In the books she just wanders around aimlessly (though I cheered when she killed some of  the Bloody Mummers - wait, that was them, right?), then goes in the wrong direction and gets scooped up by Catelyn Stark 2.0 (new House motto: I ruin everything).

I don't even want to get into the Dorne guys who go to Mereen to try and get Dany to marry some Martell kid, who's refused by Dany and burninated by Rhaegal when he tries to make friends with Viserion (dude!). I mean, what was the freaking point, here?

Finally, this season (and Hardhome last season) has made leaps and bounds into the White Walkers + Night's King story, which also has to be resolved. I know that for a lot of people the politicking is what's important in GoT, and it's why I never got into the show (until recently, because Hardhome wins everything), because I don't care about that stuff. However, both the show and the books start with the Night's Watch facing the White Walkers / Others and their ice zombies wights. To me it always seemed like a hint that none of the politics mattered in the long run, because Winter is Coming Here, and the Others don't care which House you belong to.

But either GRRM got bored with that, or he's saving all of it for the Winds of Winter, whenever it comes out, because it seriously seems to have stalled in the books.

I mean, there are some things I like better in the books - for example, it's Arya who kills the Tickler, and I love the way she stabs him while asking the questions he used to interrogate people with.

But the show at least has forward momentum - at the moment the books feel like Brienne wandering around, thinking she's following a lead, realising it's false, follows another, realises it's a trap once it's sprung, etc.

Edited July 3, 2016 by arjumand

[Winnief]

Quote

Finally, this season (and Hardhome last season) has made leaps and bounds into the White Walkers + Night's King story, which also has to be resolved. I know that for a lot of people the politicking is what's important in GoT, and it's why I never got into the show (until recently, because Hardhome wins everything), because I don't care about that stuff. However, both the show and the books start with the Night's Watch facing the White Walkers / Others and their ice zombies wights. To me it always seemed like a hint that none of the politics mattered in the long run, because Winter is Coming Here, and the Others don't care which House you belong to.

But either GRRM got bored with that, or he's saving all of it for the Winds of Winter, whenever it comes out, because it seriously seems to have stalled in the books.

I mean, there are some things I like better in the books - for example, it's Arya who kills the Tickler, and I love the way she stabs him while asking the questions he used to interrogate people with.

But the show at least has forward momentum - at the moment the books feel like Brienne wandering around, thinking she's following a lead, realising it's false, follows another, realises it's a trap once it's sprung, etc.

WORD to your entire post.  Say what you will about D&D at least they're keeping the story MOVING.  Dany being on her way to Westeros, (with the Hound, Arya, and Brienne all headed North where Sansa already is) is great in and of itself, but even more importantly the White Walker issue seems much MUCH more pressing on the show than in the books where it really does seem like Martin just got bored with it, and prefers all the world building/politics.  I first started to feel that way with the incredible Oathkeeper final scene, but it really took off with Hardhome (where even non-book people were suddenly all "Screw KL!  WTF are we gonna do about what's beyond the Wall?!?)  and now with Hold the Door and the Children reveal and so forth.  D&D really ARE setting up for the Battle of the Second Dawn and it will indeed be EPIC...but Martin?!?  I'm not so sure about.  It's like the Night's King for him is now an afterthought. 

And fAegon...I honestly don't know what he was thinking.  Yeah I know Perken Warbeck/War of the Roses yadda yadda, but it really just pissed everyone off to see Young Griff and Jon Con doing what Dany *should* be doing and kinda stole her thunder.  Not to mention it seems to introduce a FAKE lost Targaryen heir right before revealing the REAL one.  And again-D&D beat him to that.

 

For the record, I've heard stuff from Martin's publisher about how since if you count the Riverlands Westeros is really EIGHT kingdoms not Seven, maybe there'll be eight books.  I think they're getting desperate.

[Advance35]

I knew it. I knew it.  When he started talking about how when the show caught up to the books, it could take a hiatus until he managed to get the next book out, I knew he was finished.   If I were his Publisher I would call him in, sit him down and have a nice long, LOUD conversation about his pace and his need for a co/ghost writer?

So I wonder whom this is a cautionary tale for, TV Producers in terms of adapting unfinished works or Authors of Unfinished works allowing tv adaptations.  I'd say the winners here are HBO and D&D.

[Chris24601]

I tend to agree. I think there's a very real chance the show ends up completely eclipsing the books for the simple reason that the show will at least have an ending to it while ASoIaF could suffer from "Author Existence Failure" before the sixth book is even finished to his liking.

Honestly, I in part blame J.K. Rolling for what happened... or, more accurately, what happened with Harry Potter. JKR sold the rights back when only the first two books had been released, but by the time the first film was released she'd advanced up to book four and managed to stay ahead of the films (released once a year) the entire time. She could get away with ignoring her editor because the best-selling installments kept rolling off the presses on a regular basis.

That success convinced people it was okay to adapt a story that was nearly done... after all, at the time GoT started Martin was about to finish book five and would have five years to complete the remaining two volumes before the show would catch up. For a writer like JKR that would be a piece of cake.

But Martin isn't JKR and television isn't a medium where you can send main cast members into limbo for a year while you focus on brand new side characters that have little to do with the story you've been telling... which is what they would have had to do if they'd thrown in fAegon, Victorion and Quentyn and given Dorne its full book due in order to stall things enough for Martin to maybe possibly get a completed manuscript for the sixth book done and even that wouldn't be the actual end of the story.

No, that would still be another six to ten years down the line or never if he had massive coronary and died. And to top it off now he's saying it might even take another book after that to finish everything out so it might be as much as TWO DECADES before he's actually finished?

Short version... GoT could be having its 20th anniversary before Martin even gets done with his books. He may get credit for birthing it, but by then it will only be the hard work of all the showrunners and actors/actresses that gets the praise for raising it to the success it has become.

[Spartan Girl]

To be fair, JKR didn't drag out things half as long as GRRM.

So now that R+L=J is now canon, may I just say....WHAT THE HELL, NED?! You couldn't have let Catelyn in on the cover up?! He didn't trust his own wife with the secret? It could have saved her a lot of unnecessary pain and resentment, thinking that he fathered a child with another woman!

While on that subject, I can't understand why she extended her bitterness to Jon, especially in the books. Raising another woman's child sucks, but -- and I cannot stress this enough -- Jon never did anything wrong. He couldn't help who his parents were (or weren't).

[SeanC]

2 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

While on that subject, I can't understand why she extended her bitterness to Jon, especially in the books. Raising another woman's child sucks, but -- and I cannot stress this enough -- Jon never did anything wrong. He couldn't help who his parents were (or weren't).

Because Jon's continuing presence in her life is the most obvious reminder of the whole situation?  It's pretty natural that her bitterness would focus there, all things considered.  It isn't fair, sure, but the whole situation isn't fair to anybody involved.

[Chris24601]

Cat's bitterness also makes a lot more sense when you remember that she's only 30-ish in the books.

Just like Jon's actions make more sense when its a 14-year old (and many of his show lines were actually just his internalized thoughts in the books), Cat's actions make a lot more sense when you realize the bulk of it happened when she was still a young mother in her twenties.

[Bean421]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

So now that R+L=J is now canon, may I just say....WHAT THE HELL, NED?! You couldn't have let Catelyn in on the cover up?! He didn't trust his own wife with the secret? It could have saved her a lot of unnecessary pain.

I think Ned was right not to tell Cat. She's  pretty impulsive and who's to say she wouldn't have told in order to get her kids back or secure Winterfell? 

[Minneapple]

41 minutes ago, Bean421 said:

I think Ned was right not to tell Cat. She's  pretty impulsive and who's to say she wouldn't have told in order to get her kids back or secure Winterfell? 

Not just that...but if Ned had told Cat, she may have been extra-motherly toward Jon. That would have raised some eyebrows, yes? Ned dishonored Cat and brought home a kid to shame her in front of all of Winterfell. Why is Cat so loving toward her husband's bastard son? 

Martin vs. JKR. Well, to be fair to Martin, JKR was telling a children's story so by nature it was simpler than ASOIAF. But JKR is known as a pretty disciplined writer, and she knows what to put in her books and what to leave out. (Although, hey, maybe she could have cut a page or 10 of the camping in Deathly Hallows?)  Consider how much side information she's released about the books since their publication. She's talked about creating profiles of all the students who were at Hogwarts, backgrounds and family histories -- but none of that was in the books because it really was not necessary to the story, just to her as a writer.

[SeanC]

49 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Not just that...but if Ned had told Cat, she may have been extra-motherly toward Jon. That would have raised some eyebrows, yes? Ned dishonored Cat and brought home a kid to shame her in front of all of Winterfell. Why is Cat so loving toward her husband's bastard son? 

I've never bought that argument.  First, Winterfell is super-remote; it's not like the royal court is observing their day-to-day interactions.  Second, if Catelyn wanted to make a show of forgiving Ned and loving Jon, that plays into a whole host of stereotypes about maternal love (indeed, a huge swath of the readership assumes that it was unnatural for her not to do this), and could easily have been played off.  And even if it couldn't, why would Catelyn not be capable of keeping up the pretense in public and being nicer in private?

[Hecate7]

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

Because Jon's continuing presence in her life is the most obvious reminder of the whole situation?  It's pretty natural that her bitterness would focus there, all things considered.  It isn't fair, sure, but the whole situation isn't fair to anybody involved.

You know what's a REAL reminder? Ned's continued presence.

[Hecate7]

42 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I've never bought that argument.  First, Winterfell is super-remote; it's not like the royal court is observing their day-to-day interactions.  Second, if Catelyn wanted to make a show of forgiving Ned and loving Jon, that plays into a whole host of stereotypes about maternal love (indeed, a huge swath of the readership assumes that it was unnatural for her not to do this), and could easily have been played off.  And even if it couldn't, why would Catelyn not be capable of keeping up the pretense in public and being nicer in private?

Because Catelyn is incapable of any sort of pretense or control over her emotions, that's why. She's utterly unable to disguise her feelings about anything. Had Ned told her, the VERY first time ratting him out might look advantageous to her kids in any way, she'd have done it. She's have told her sister, anyway, advantage or not, because Lyssa's family. And Lyssa would have told Jon Arryn because you never keep a secret from your spouse, right? So that would have been a very short-lived secret indeed, and an equally short-lived infant.

Ned made a deathbed promise to his sister to protect Jon Snow. An oath is an oath and really, people are making much, much more of Ned and Cat's relationship than was ever really there. Marriage vows do not obligate Ned to tell Cat anything, much less everything. He's really not required to consider her feelings at all, much less prioritize them above the lives of everyone in the household or above a deathbed promise to his sister.

Had Ned not been the bosom buddy of Robert Baratheon, he might have been able to conceal Snow without deceiving his wife, but since he was the foster son of Jon Arryn, Hand of the King, and best friend of the King, he's had to assume that there are spies in his house, and that word would eventually reach Robert Arryn. The last 15 years must have been hell for him, wondering when he would slip up, wondering when Robert or Cat or Lyssa or Jon or someone would figure out the obvious.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Hecate7

[SeanC]

6 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

You know what's a REAL reminder? Ned's continued presence.

No, it's easy to ignore that when she's with Ned and Jon isn't around.

6 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

She's have told her sister, anyway, advantage or not, because Lyssa's family.

No, she wouldn't have.  I have no idea where you get such a notion.

[benteen]

I don't believe she would have told Lysa anyway.  Why would she?

I think Ned was correct not to confide in her right away.  When he returned after the war, Catelyn was really still a stranger to him.  They spent one night together and that was it.  As their marriage grew stronger and they fell in lover with each other, I think he should have been honest with her.  But trust had to be earned and Ned just didn't know Cat well enough to trust her after the war.

[Athena]

I actually think that by keeping the secret from Catelyn, he was protecting her. It was a burden to Ned to keep this secret about Jon. He was committing treason, but he made an oath to his sister on her deathbed. He was understandably paranoid that Robert would find out so he kept Jon close. Telling a secret doesn't mean unburdening yourself, it also means sharing the misery of that secret with someone else and putting them in danger too. I agree that he and Cat had a good marriage all things considered, but the vow he made was for his sister and their family which includes Jon. I am completely fine with him not telling Catelyn. I don't hate her, but she was emotional where Jon was concerned and who knows how she would have taken it.

[Enigma X]

15 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

While on that subject, I can't understand why she extended her bitterness to Jon, especially in the books. Raising another woman's child sucks, but -- and I cannot stress this enough -- Jon never did anything wrong. He couldn't help who his parents were (or weren't).

I agree. It doesn't make much sense to me at all, especially since she never grew wiser. Heck. If she would have shifted some of that bitterness to Ned, I would have still not liked her but would have seen where she was putting the blame where it should have been and given her some slack. Ned is actually one of my favorite characters but his not addressing Cat's stank attitude toward Jon sort of burned me too.

[vibeology]

20 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Short version... GoT could be having its 20th anniversary before Martin even gets done with his books. He may get credit for birthing it, but by then it will only be the hard work of all the showrunners and actors/actresses that gets the praise for raising it to the success it has become.

I know you're talking about the show but just to put his lack of speed into perspective, we are about a month away from the 20th anniversary of Game of Thrones, the novel. At this pace, I figure if he ever does finish we're looking at ten years down the line. It's just crazy. 

[SeanC]

53 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

Ned is actually one of my favorite characters but his not addressing Cat's stank attitude toward Jon sort of burned me too.

What was he going to do, exactly?  Order her to love him?  Ned was aware that the whole situation was unfair to her as well.

[Mabinogia]

I don't think there was any right way to handle the situation. He might have hoped Cat would accept Jon as a mistake, but still his flesh and blood and not treat him like a ward or something. But when he brought Jon home the Ned/Cat relationship wasn't as solidified as it was when we met them so he probably wasn't certain he could trust her, and I do 100% think that Cat would tell the secret if it would protect her own children. I wouldn't blame her either because her first responsibility should be her children. The more people know a secret the more chance there is it won't stay a secret. But it was unfair to his wife. I'm sure he was aware of that. But when is the right time to tell? When Jon reaches a certain age? When Ned feels a certain level of trust with Cat? How do you measure that? I don't doubt it ate away at him but it's a hard situation and he was trying to put his nephew's safety first.

[Enigma X]

22 minutes ago, SeanC said:

What was he going to do, exactly?  Order her to love him?  Ned was aware that the whole situation was unfair to her as well.

Reminding her that he was the guilty party and not Jon would have done nicely. Would it have changed her behavior? Probably not. But at least he would have acknowledged that Jon should have not been at fault for being born.

[YaddaYadda]

16 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

To be fair, JKR didn't drag out things half as long as GRRM.

So now that R+L=J is now canon, may I just say....WHAT THE HELL, NED?! You couldn't have let Catelyn in on the cover up?! He didn't trust his own wife with the secret? It could have saved her a lot of unnecessary pain and resentment, thinking that he fathered a child with another woman!

While on that subject, I can't understand why she extended her bitterness to Jon, especially in the books. Raising another woman's child sucks, but -- and I cannot stress this enough -- Jon never did anything wrong. He couldn't help who his parents were (or weren't).

To be fair, Ned didn't really know Catelyn, and she didn't know him either. Their marriage happened because he needed the Tully forces. Ned's greatest wish was that his kids and Jon would grow up to be close, and Jon was close enough to all his siblings, except for Sansa. 

I don't know that Catelyn would have loved Jon if she had known the truth, because knowing the truth meant that if Jon's true parentage came out, her entire family would have been in danger because of him. So maybe she would still have hated who Jon was, and what he was. Plus there was the whole bit with Robb wanting to legitimize Jon, and she refusing it. I get where she was coming from, but at the same time, it showed how very little she really knew Jon.

The moment I really hated Catelyn was when she told Jon that it should have been him lying in that bed broken and dying when he went to say his goodbyes to Bran. Because why would anyone ever say something like that? He already knew she hated him. There was no need to add to it.

[charis]

15 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

The moment I really hated Catelyn was when she told Jon that it should have been him lying in that bed broken and dying when he went to say his goodbyes to Bran. Because why would anyone ever say something like that? He already knew she hated him. There was no need to add to it.

Grief does terrible things to people, especially when they're no doubt already deep in self-castigation. Cat had told Bran time and time again not to climb, and it seems exceedingly likely she's wracked with guilt for what she sees as her part in his injury as well as grieving the potential loss of her child. It doesn't excuse her words, but it does explain where they're probably coming from. I never understood people who say "how could she say that?!", because to me it seems entirely plausible in that kind of situation.

[SeanC]

16 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

The moment I really hated Catelyn was when she told Jon that it should have been him lying in that bed broken and dying when he went to say his goodbyes to Bran. Because why would anyone ever say something like that? He already knew she hated him. There was no need to add to it.

She said that because she was in an emotional breakdown.  It sounds like she herself felt bad about it later, based on one of her thoughts when she's in the Vale.  Of course, she never saw Jon again, so it's kind of a moot point.

[Hecate7]

7 hours ago, SeanC said:

No, it's easy to ignore that when she's with Ned and Jon isn't around.

No, she wouldn't have.  I have no idea where you get such a notion.

I can find no evidence of Catelyn ever keeping any secrets from Lyssa before, can you? If merely being Ned's wife, without having really lived with or gotten to know him at all yet, entitles Cat to know his dead sister's most important secret, then surely the blood sister Cat has lived with for most of her life, with whom she shares the motto, "Family, Duty, Honor," would be entitled to know the identity of her own nephew?

For that matter, I can find no evidence of Cat ever keeping a secret from anyone, ever. She just calls it like she sees it. Ned never reflects on her trustworthiness or her discretion. He never thinks to himself that he ought to have told her. The plain truth is that he thought it better to let her think he cheated on her, than to let her in on the truth, and that is probably the smartest thing he ever did. Trusting Cat is actually what got Ned killed. It's what made him take Lyssa's letter at face value, and it's what made him trust Littlefinger.

[SeanC]

21 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

I can find no evidence of Catelyn ever keeping any secrets from Lyssa before, can you? If merely being Ned's wife, without having really lived with or gotten to know him at all yet, entitles Cat to know his dead sister's most important secret, then surely the blood sister Cat has lived with for most of her life, with whom she shares the motto, "Family, Duty, Honor," would be entitled to know the identity of her own nephew?

No, one is not entitled to know the identity of one's own nephew when that secret is meant to be kept by as few people as possible (and for that matter, Catelyn herself recalled Lysa as being unserious and gossipy, from what I recall).  Catelyn's not an idiot or incapable of understanding the importance of keeping things confidential.  She would not tell Lysa, simply because Ned would not want her to.

[Hecate7]

23 hours ago, SeanC said:

No, one is not entitled to know the identity of one's own nephew when that secret is meant to be kept by as few people as possible (and for that matter, Catelyn herself recalled Lysa as being unserious and gossipy, from what I recall).  Catelyn's not an idiot or incapable of understanding the importance of keeping things confidential.  She would not tell Lysa, simply because Ned would not want her to.

That's a ridiculous assumption. They did not know each other. It's ludicrous to assume that just because they were married, that Cat would do everything her husband wanted her to. Lyssa was also someone's wife: did she do everything he wanted her to do? Did Cersei? No. Did Sansa? No. Marriage is not some magical spell that turns strangers into completely devoted allies overnight, and honesty was never a part of any sane marriage vow. Ned was at least smart enough to know that.

Cat did, by some miracle, grow to love Ned, but she didn't love him yet when he came home with Jon Snow. It took many years for them to grow the love they ultimately had, and probably they would not have had that love had Ned trusted Cat with Jon's identity. He swore an oath to his dying sister. That's more sacred than marriage, and Cat would know that. A man who would break his promise to his dying sister would certainly break any promise he made his wife, and Cat would have lost all trust and all admiration for Ned. He had absolutely no reason to trust her, nor any reason to think that their marriage was any different from Robert's and Cersei's, or Jon and Lyssa's, until years later. When Jon was born, Ned was far closer to Robert or to Jon Arryn than he was to Cat, and he had to keep the secret from them. Cat was closer to Lyssa and Littlefinger, at that time, than she was to Ned. There was no reason to trust her with a life or death secret. Marriage is for breeding children. It does not make someone your magical obedient soulmate, and our story is filled to the brim with examples of this.

Edited July 6, 2016 by Hecate7