Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[nikma]

Now that we know the endgame, all these new storylines and characters in AFFC and ADWD feel even more pointless. Just more detailed version of S5-S8 would be perfect for the books after ASOS. 

[Maximum Taco]

7 hours ago, nikma said:

Now that we know the endgame, all these new storylines and characters in AFFC and ADWD feel even more pointless. Just more detailed version of S5-S8 would be perfect for the books after ASOS. 

Really?

After watching this train wreck of a season I think that the plots from AFFC and ADWD are more integral than ever to the conclusion of the books. 

Removing these plots destroyed every character. The existence of Aegon/Young Griff especially is necessary for Dany, Tyrion, and Varys to move forward in a believable manner without just saying that they all had strokes and went crazy/stupid. His existence is also necessary for Cersei and Jaime's plotline to conclude in a way that makes sense and isn't just Cersei looking out a window for several months. 

Dany's storyline in Meereen is necessary because this is the point where her coin begins to flip. It's not in an instance at 'The Bells' it's a long process, and her actions in Meereen lead her to choose war over peace. 

Sansa's storyline in the Vale is necessary for her growth so she doesn't have to do character development via rape. 

Arya's storyline in Braavos is necessary so she doesn't just magically get everything she needs without suffering and work. And also so she doesn't flip back and forth from normal girl to psychopath and back again every couple episodes. 

Bran's storyline in the cave is necessary so he doesn't go from Bran to 3ER in a way that drains him of all the charisma necessary to be a good king or an interesting character.

Edited May 21, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[ElizaD]

10 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Arya going exploring isn't surprising to me as a book endgame, although I'm not entirely convinced that Arya going "west of Westeros" as opposed to heading for Braavos is GRRM's planned book canon.

I never would have thought Sansa would end up QITN based on the books alone, but her endgame in the show seemed to be tracking towards being the single Lady of Winterfell since Season 6.

I hadn't really paid attention to explorer Arya theories in book fandom (at one point death seemed like the most widely predicted ending), but the speculations here made it my preferred ending for her. I like that Nymeria's name wasn't foreshadowing queenship but the much better fit of exploration, and this makes Arya the ideal character for the sequel spinoffs I think GRRM mentioned in some context. I also saw someone point out that one of the Brandons burned his ships because his father was lost while out exploring, which makes me like this ending even more since it has a connection to Stark history.

QITN Sansa might be even more shocking to me than Bran or Dany. Since season 6 I've been sure that the show was building her up for a Lady of Winterfell endgame, but even after the lords praising her in season 7 and the talks with/about Dany in season 8, independence stunned me because I felt that the books had dropped that particular narrative after Robb's death and the Starks' restoration, even after Jon's show KITNing, would only be in the context of lordship. I think this is too major to be a show-only thing: King Bran confirms that Sansa gets Winterfell, and if GRRM intends to make a character as isolated as Bran the king in the south then he can also revive Northern independence.

Despite its flaws, I'm so grateful that we had the show. Without it I would never have learned how wrong I was to predict a Targaryen restoration. Both ice and fire were the enemy, it seems.

[Eyes High]

5 hours ago, ElizaD said:

I hadn't really paid attention to explorer Arya theories in book fandom (at one point death seemed like the most widely predicted ending), but the speculations here made it my preferred ending for her. I like that Nymeria's name wasn't foreshadowing queenship but the much better fit of exploration, and this makes Arya the ideal character for the sequel spinoffs I think GRRM mentioned in some context. I also saw someone point out that one of the Brandons burned his ships because his father was lost while out exploring, which makes me like this ending even more since it has a connection to Stark history.

GRRM allegedly once said something about wanting to write a post-ASOIAF mystery set in Braavos with an adult Arya. (He has made documented comments about wanting to do a mystery set in Braavos, but the adult Arya part is not confirmed, I saw that on a Reddit comment from someone who claimed to have heard it from Elio of Westeros.org.) That's what made me think that an itinerant post-ASOIAF Arya was a strong likelihood. And yes, as you point out, Nymeria was a queen, but Nymeria also burned her ships so that she could never return home.

GRRM weighed in on the finale at Notablog. The page isn't loading for some reason, but here's the part where he talks about books vs. show:

Quote

How will it all end? I hear people asking.   The same ending as the show?  Different?

Well… yes.  And no.  And yes.   And no.   And yes.   And no.   And yes.

I am working in a very different medium than David and Dan, never forget.   They had six hours for this final season.   I expect these last two books of mine will fill 3000 manuscript pages between them before I’m done… and if more pages and chapters and scenes are needed, I’ll add them.   And of course the butterfly effect will be at work as well; those of you who follow this Not A Blog will know that I’ve been talking about that since season one.   There are characters who never made it onto the screen at all, and others who died in the show but still live in the books… so if nothing else, the readers will learn what happened to Jeyne Poole, Lady Stoneheart, Penny and her pig, Skahaz Shavepate, Arianne Martell, Darkstar, Victarion Greyjoy, Ser Garlan the Gallant, Aegon VI, and a myriad of other characters both great and small that viewers of the show never had the chance to meet.   And yes, there will be unicorns… of a sort…

Book or show, which will be the “real” ending?   It’s a silly question.   How many children did Scarlett O’Hara have?

How about this?  I’ll write it.   You read it.  Then everyone can make up their own mind, and argue about it on the internet.

It seems like tacit confirmation that the ending is basically the same.

I love that GRRM thinks that fans will care about what happens to Darkstar. No one cares about what happens to Darkstar.

Edited May 21, 2019 by Eyes High

[Maximum Taco]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

GRRM weighed in on the finale at Notablog. The page isn't loading for some reason, but here's the part where he talks about books vs. show:

It seems like tacit confirmation that the ending is basically the same.

I love that GRRM thinks that fans will care about what happens to Darkstar. No one cares about what happens to Darkstar.

I do believe the ending will be basically the same. But key changes are gonna be made so they are more acceptable/believable. 

Dany mad and then dead, but her descent is gonna be slow and arduous, and will end with her as a kinslayer (Aegon is a mummers dragon but I think the books might let Dany believe she killed her nephew)

Jon in the Night's Watch, but I think in the books the threat of the Others won't be destroyed as absolutely as it was in the show. I think they'll push the Others back, but either know they are coming back or think they might be coming back, so the Night's Watch will have a purpose for existing. 

Bran as King, but he won't be an emotionless shell like he is in the show. Usually D&D don't go far enough with these changes, Jon and Beric barely change with their resurrections, I think with Bran they went too far. I expect him to still be more Bran Stark and less 3EC in the books. 

Arya on a ship, but perhaps to Braavos instead of across the Sea of Death? Also she'll have an arc where she becomes a vengeance driven murder machine before working her way back to a more healthy place, instead of flipping back and forth from murder machine to relatively normal girl and back again and again.  

Sansa as Queen in the North, but with a more organic growth where she actually learns to play the game. 

Cersei dead in Jaime's arms, but Jaime is the one who actively kills her before committing suicide, or dying himself directly after. 

Everyone ends up where they do in the show, but it's just a bit more believable and sensical. 

But yeah, Darkstar can go fuck himself. GRRM keeps want everyone to like that edgelord. Everyone hates Darkstar George, just accept it. 

Edited May 21, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[Maximum Taco]

From the Book Spoiler episode thread...

Quote

Sansa is currently in the Vale in the books. What if she meets up with Young Griff? Another Stark/Targ combo? And Rickon gets Winterfell? That link to the Reddit about Young Griff is really good. I actually liked his potential a lot in the book. His whole group and his foster father were interesting. 

Personally I think Young Griff is gonna end up with either Arianne Martell or Margaery Tyrell (before being killed by Dany)

Just because that whole Dorne/Highgarden/Targaryen alliance has to come from somewhere. That really seems like it was going somewhere in the show, but then they died very unceremoniously. It makes sense to me that in the books they will both be allied with Young Griff, and then they will be killed by Daenerys. 

Arianne makes sense cause Doran seems determined to wed the Martells to the Targaryens by any means he can. Margaery makes sense because it kind of runs with her black widow theme if she's wed to three kings and they all die in youth. 

I think Sansa is gonna end up with Winterfell, but it's easily possible Rickon does as well. His death felt like it was just pure shock value in the show, like a lot of the things in the show. 

Edited May 21, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[Tachi Rocinante]

Personally, I think Young Griff is an impostor who won't be discovered until it's almost (?) too late.

[Umbelina]

9 hours ago, Eyes High said:

GRRM allegedly once said something about wanting to write a post-ASOIAF mystery set in Braavos with an adult Arya. (He has made documented comments about wanting to do a mystery set in Braavos, but the adult Arya part is not confirmed, I saw that on a Reddit comment from someone who claimed to have heard it from Elio of Westeros.org.) That's what made me think that an itinerant post-ASOIAF Arya was a strong likelihood. And yes, as you point out, Nymeria was a queen, but Nymeria also burned her ships so that she could never return home.

GRRM weighed in on the finale at Notablog. The page isn't loading for some reason, but here's the part where he talks about books vs. show:

It seems like tacit confirmation that the ending is basically the same.

I love that GRRM thinks that fans will care about what happens to Darkstar. No one cares about what happens to Darkstar.

Or Penny and her Pig.

I like the ending, I don't like the way the show got there, but I like the ending, as I said several times in the spoiler thread when the spoilers first came out.

[Maximum Taco]

7 hours ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

Personally, I think Young Griff is an impostor who won't be discovered until it's almost (?) too late.

I'm pretty sure he's a Blackfyre. I'm not sure if it will ever be discovered though.

Edited May 22, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[ElizaD]

16 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

I think Sansa is gonna end up with Winterfell, but it's easily possible Rickon does as well. His death felt like it was just pure shock value in the show, like a lot of the things in the show. 

When Sansa's endgame was discussed earlier, it was pointed out that GRRM's insistence that there had never been a ruling Lady of Winterfell could be because the story would end with the first ever LOW. Whatever he intended for Rickon (dead or a source of heirs for Sansa), I believe that the show does confirm Sansa as the first LOW and quite possibly also as the first ever QITN. The show made Bran king despite leaving him offscreen for a season and doing the bare minimum with him ever since, which to me surely means that they were faithful to GRRM's ending even though it meant crowning one of their unfavorites. If Rickon was the Lord of Winterfell in the books, he would also be on the show; he was also an even later addition to GRRM's original plan than Sansa, so I can believe her as uber-Northern LOW as an evolution of the early drafts in which she was doomed forever by choosing Joffrey, in the same way that early Jaime's deeds were eventually split between Jaime/Cersei and Jon/Arya/Tyrion became Jon/Daenerys/Tyrion (with Sansa as the Stark girl he was involved with).

[ulkis]

19 hours ago, Eyes High said:

GRRM weighed in on the finale at Notablog. The page isn't loading for some reason, but here's the part where he talks about books vs. show:

That quote is from a while ago.

[bijoux]

56 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

The show made Bran king despite leaving him offscreen for a season and doing the bare minimum with him ever since, which to me surely means that they were faithful to GRRM's ending even though it meant crowning one of their unfavorites.

The fact that Bran was off screen for a whole season seems to be used as an argument against the show, but wasn't he also missing from one of the books? Is this just something that's my personal impression because I found his story beyond the Wall sort of a snooze when reading the books?

[ElizaD]

1 hour ago, bijoux said:

The fact that Bran was off screen for a whole season seems to be used as an argument against the show, but wasn't he also missing from one of the books? Is this just something that's my personal impression because I found his story beyond the Wall sort of a snooze when reading the books?

Thanks to the mess of GRRM splitting up AFFC and ADWD into two books by location when his planned five-year gap didn't work, most POVs have skipped a book so it's not as noticeable as on TV (was Sandor the only other major-ish character to skip a season?). GRRM infamously promised that we'd see Jon, Dany and Tyrion next year (hah!) when he released AFFC with no big three POVs. Since 2005 the only new Sansa chapter has been on his website, but the show gave her Jeyne Poole's storyline so that she'd have something to do and we also got to see Theon's torture instead of rejoining him when he'd become Reek; the show didn't try to do anything like that for Bran, the future king, which is why the lack of buildup for him now stands out so much.

[Eyes High]

29 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

Thanks to the mess of GRRM splitting up AFFC and ADWD into two books by location when his planned five-year gap didn't work, most POVs have skipped a book so it's not as noticeable as on TV (was Sandor the only other major-ish character to skip a season?). GRRM infamously promised that we'd see Jon, Dany and Tyrion next year (hah!) when he released AFFC with no big three POVs. Since 2005 the only new Sansa chapter has been on his website, but the show gave her Jeyne Poole's storyline so that she'd have something to do and we also got to see Theon's torture instead of rejoining him when he'd become Reek; the show didn't try to do anything like that for Bran, the future king, which is why the lack of buildup for him now stands out so much.

Not only that, but some of the writing choices are completely mystifying given that we got King Bran, like Bran insisting in Season 7 that he can't be lord of anything. Sansa needed to be LOW to fuel the S7 Sansa/Arya drama, but Bran could have given another reason, like some mysterious comment how Sansa needs to be LOW for events to play out, or similar.

On 5/20/2019 at 5:23 PM, nikma said:

Now that we know the endgame, all these new storylines and characters in AFFC and ADWD feel even more pointless. Just more detailed version of S5-S8 would be perfect for the books after ASOS. 

I agree. 

Edited May 22, 2019 by Eyes High

[Minneapple]

3 hours ago, ulkis said:

That quote is from a while ago.

No, it's from an entry dated the day after the finale aired. He's said similar stuff in the past, including the quote about how many kids Scarlett O'Hara had.

[Eyes High]

15 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

No, it's from an entry dated the day after the finale aired. He's said similar stuff in the past, including the quote about how many kids Scarlett O'Hara had.

Yes, exactly. It seems like an old quote, because he's not really saying anything he hasn't said before.

[nikma]

GRRM just said that book will be finished by Summer of 2020 or we have permission to arrest him. Lol

[ulkis]

7 hours ago, Minneapple said:

No, it's from an entry dated the day after the finale aired. He's said similar stuff in the past, including the quote about how many kids Scarlett O'Hara had.

Then he quoted himself word for word, heh.

[Wouter]

On 5/20/2019 at 6:07 PM, screamin said:

I'm taking it as canon that the show ending means that in the books Sweetrobin survives, and that Sansa manages to outplay LF in the Vale all by her lonesome to save him - and not have to marry Harry in the bargain, because he's kind of a dick (though I foresee her using the promise of a possible betrothal to manipulating him into being her general).

I think Sansa will outplay LF in the books and will save Robyn in the process; conflict may  erupt when Sansa finally realises that LF wants to (eventually) kill Robyn. Harry may help her, but he could also be a character who dies early on in this subplot (somebody is likely to die in the tourney that LF is holding). Lord Royce was used in the show as a staunch and loyal supporter of Sansa, maybe Yohn Royce and Sansa ally in the books as well - once Sansa gets out of LF's orbit a bit.

I think Arya will help Sansa in the Vale (having your own spy and superassassin has to be an enormous boon in this kind of plot), after they get over their issues. Bran may feed some ideas through dreams, so Sansa connects the dots. Much like happened in the show, but in another location and without playing up the shock effect as D&D obviously wanted.

On 5/20/2019 at 6:26 PM, Minneapple said:

The ending makes me wish we were getting the books, because I actually liked it. The lead-up, not so much. I would love to read GRRM's lead-up to this ending, however many thousands of pages that would be. But I don't think we'll get it.

Yes, now I think Jaime is the valonqar and now we know why they removed that from the prophecy.

I, too, actually want to read the unwritten books more so now, even if merely TWOW ever gets published (I hope that one does get finished one day...).

On 5/20/2019 at 6:30 PM, Dame sans merci said:

Ditto. I think Cersei is likely to die far earlier in the books, meaning that Jaime killing her wouldn't be as repetitive here when placed right next to Jon killing Dany.

That's a good point. Would GRRM intend the endings to mirror each other?

However, this would mean Jaime exits the books relatively early, too. I'm not 100% sure (f)Aegon will get rid of Cersei before Dany arrives. Maybe we get a three-way war for the throne, leaving the north on the sidelines, until Dany (and maybe even Aegon?) take their attention north for a while.

On 5/20/2019 at 10:02 PM, Maximum Taco said:

I disagree. 

The one thing GRRM won't shut up about is how much he argued for Lady Stoneheart and how her omission is the biggest thing that upset him about the show (to be fair that was before this season.) and that he considers her a major part of The Winds of Winter. 

Lady Stoneheart is already involved in Brienne and Jaime's story, not sure if you consider them A-List characters or not. I wouldn't be surprised if she becomes involved in Arya's storyline as well. Book Arya is on this path to becoming a soulless killing machine obsessed with vengeance, with little to no morals. I can see a lot of mirrors in that story with the path Lady Stoneheart has taken.

Lady Stoneheart will probably take drastic revenge on the Freys - the buildup is there - and thus take that part of show-Arya's storyline. If Arya meets her, this could be what convinces her that the vengeance quest is too damaging to pursue.

On 5/20/2019 at 10:22 PM, SeanC said:

The Six Kingdoms/North split, as presented in the show, is total nonsense.  I don't know if that's a show-only elaboration, and, say, in the books it will be Sansa as Lady with Bran as King, or if GRRM has some surely more detailed and elaborate method of arriving at the same result.  I briefly wondered the writers wanted the "Queen in the North" stuff as a shield against Dany going full-villain along with Cersei, but on reflection they've never shown the degree of awareness to warrant such a pre-emptive action; so probably not.

If the north does not secede in the books (it does seem an unlikely storyline, especially considering the north will probably need lots of help after all the damage it must have taken), maybe Sansa and Tyrion remarry/stay married and rule the 7K together, with Bran as a figurehead (to a greater degree than he is on the show). I could see D&D steering away from that because the two mad queens already got them in the crosshairs, and Sansa ending up with book-Tyrion would probably not go over well at all.

Another option for Sansa is that Harry the Heir, not featured in the show, does marry her in the end. But that would make secession of the north very unlikely, as the Vale and the north would have very close ties.

I wonder who the "younger more beautiful queen" is supposed to be in the books. She has to cast Cersei down and take all the she holds dear. I don't think anybody really did in the show, so anybody from Margaery to Dany over Arianne and Sansa could still be candidates.

[Wouter]

On 5/21/2019 at 6:41 AM, Maximum Taco said:

After watching this train wreck of a season I think that the plots from AFFC and ADWD are more integral than ever to the conclusion of the books. 

Removing these plots destroyed every character. The existence of Aegon/Young Griff especially is necessary for Dany, Tyrion, and Varys to move forward in a believable manner without just saying that they all had strokes and went crazy/stupid. His existence is also necessary for Cersei and Jaime's plotline to conclude in a way that makes sense and isn't just Cersei looking out a window for several months. 

Dany's storyline in Meereen is necessary because this is the point where her coin begins to flip. It's not in an instance at 'The Bells' it's a long process, and her actions in Meereen lead her to choose war over peace.

Removing (f)Aegon was really a mistake, in spite of all the streamlining D&D could do. It would have meant a decent Dorne storyline, Varys being what he is in the books (never a true friend of Daenerys) and much-needed fuel for Dany to sink further into what probably started in Meereen and further in Essos. As a supposed son of Rhaegar (actually probably a Blackfyre), (f)Aegon would be the perfect catalyst for her insecurity about Jon, once it turns out he really is what (f)Aegon is/was claimed to be. It would also cause a war against two sides that aren't obviously evil, opening the way for Dany to become more ruthless.

Edit: an interesting post from a veteran Westeros poster, here

Some interesting points Maia makes:

-book-Arya may need to be constantly on the move, should the Faceless men pursue her

-Euron may be affiliated (knowingly or unknowingly) with the Others - he is a very sinister villain in the books

-Jon's may stay in the NW in the books (because he ultimately returns there in the show), with his show-storyline borrowing elements from Stannis (battle of the frozen lake - quite probably a Stannis victory, in spite of the "pink letter" - rather than battle of the bastards) and from (f)Aegon (supposed family with a superior claim for the throne).

-"the bells" may exist in the show to, but have something to do with Jon Connington, who had years earlier lost the "battle of the bells" from Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark.

-Tyrion knows (f)Aegon is fake and will likely make sure Dany is aware of that, making war a certainty

Edited May 22, 2019 by Wouter

[YaddaYadda]

48 minutes ago, Wouter said:

-Tyrion knows (f)Aegon is fake and will likely make sure Dany is aware of that, making war a certainty

He doesn't know that. When he is in Volantis listening to Benerro's preaching about Dany being the savior, he thinks that Aegon will not find friends with the red priests and he is surprised at how much he has come to care about the kid. (Tyrion VII, ADwD 27)

I doubt he just throws him under the bus like that. What more, though, is that Tyrion is the only character who will know Jon Snow, Aegon and Dany by the time the last page of WoW is read. I think that's a rather important thing.

I think the expectation of Dance 2.0 has messed up some of the speculation with regard to Aegon/Dany. I think the Blackfyre is already in Dany's camp, personally. We were introduced to two characters who dye their hair the same blue color and one of them Dany already knows.

Edited May 22, 2019 by YaddaYadda

[Wouter]

Just now, YaddaYadda said:

He doesn't know that. When he is in Volantis listening to Benerro's preaching about Dany being the savior, he thinks that Aegon will not find friends with the red priests and he is surprised at how much he has come to care about the kid. (Tyrion VII, ADwD 27)

I doubt he just throws him under the bus like that. What more, though, is that Tyrion is the only character who will know Jon Snow, Aegon and Dany by the time the last page of WoW is read. I think that's a rather important thing.

I think the expectation of Dance 2.0 has messed up some of the speculation with regard to Aegon/Dany. 

Tyrion's feeling wrt (f)Aegon and Jaime and others are complicated. But he did give Aegon (probably) bad advice to turn away from Dany, not wait to seek alliance with her first but establish himself in Westeros first.

He also heavily suspects there is something up with Illyrio and his love for Aegon. I'm quite sure he realises there is a father-son relation, here.

[Edith]

Back when GRRM discussed axing the 5 year gap, he said "If a twelve-year old has to conquer the world, then so be it."

Bran is the answer!

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, Wouter said:

If the north does not secede in the books (it does seem an unlikely storyline, especially considering the north will probably need lots of help after all the damage it must have taken), maybe Sansa and Tyrion remarry/stay married and rule the 7K together, with Bran as a figurehead (to a greater degree than he is on the show). I could see D&D steering away from that because the two mad queens already got them in the crosshairs, and Sansa ending up with book-Tyrion would probably not go over well at all.

That I doubt, because if Sansa/Tyrion was a thing in GRRM's endgame, that would definitely be in the show -- D&D clearly love the idea of that pairing, it's one of the more obvious areas where (especially in the early seasons when you could more obviously compare the show to extant source material) their preferences/instincts could visibly be seen tugging in an opposite direction to what GRRM was writing.

The biggest of these conflicts in taste, though, was (very inconveniently, as we now know) GRRM making Bran a central character versus D&D clearly not caring about Bran much at all.

[loki567]

Cersei - I agree with the idea that Cersei's probably dead in a relatively short time in the books. Her bull in a china shop approach won't keep working and she's always been treated mainly as a nuisance to the smarter characters. Blowing up the Sept isn't going to be a masterstroke but probably the end of her. F!Aegon will take the city.  

Jaime - if Cersei does die early, then that will almost certainly change Jaime's story arc. He's done with her by the end of AFFC and so I think he'll survive her by a quite bit. He'll probably still die but it might be in a much more heroic context against the Others. 

Margaery - I'm really curious if Margaery might survive the story. She might die in the Sept explosion but that might also be a show-only invention. Natalie Dormer wanted out of the show for years and D&D have that tendency to kill characters they don't need any more for story purposes. I can't imagine the Tyrells will be completely wiped off the map in the books. 

Stannis/Littlefinger - these are the two characters I'm most curious in the role they'll play in how the story ends. They're major characters the show marginalized to an extreme degree. Stannis might be the one to actually free the North from the Boltons while Littlefinger has almost been positioned as the series' human big bad. 

How will Stannis react to Robb's will naming Jon as his heir? How will the burning of Shireen go down? How will Littlefinger react to Dany? 

I think these two will make into the last book at least. 

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, loki567 said:

Cersei - I agree with the idea that Cersei's probably dead in a relatively short time in the books. Her bull in a china shop approach won't keep working and she's always been treated mainly as a nuisance to the smarter characters. Blowing up the Sept isn't going to be a masterstroke but probably the end of her. F!Aegon will take the city.  

The writers of the show more or less admitted that the Sept explosion was something they came up with themselves.  I don't think it's going to have any book equivalent, at least in terms of Cersei's plans.  The wildfire explosion will be saved for the actual destruction of King's Landing.

Quote

Stannis/Littlefinger - these are the two characters I'm most curious in the role they'll play in how the story ends. They're major characters the show marginalized to an extreme degree. Stannis might be the one to actually free the North from the Boltons while Littlefinger has almost been positioned as the series' human big bad. 

How will Stannis react to Robb's will naming Jon as his heir? How will the burning of Shireen go down? How will Littlefinger react to Dany? 

I think these two will make into the last book at least. 

While this isn't something I feel confident in ruling out alternatives, I think the most likely outcome is that Littlefinger never makes it out of the Vale in the books.  He's Sansa's to defeat, and the show, ironically, was a good demonstration of how introducing too many other major characters into the plot tends to impede the central dynamic between those characters.  The Vale has been constructed as an ideal, overall neutral stage for this political drama to play out.

[ElizaD]

8 hours ago, Wouter said:

That's a good point. Would GRRM intend the endings to mirror each other?

However, this would mean Jaime exits the books relatively early, too. I'm not 100% sure (f)Aegon will get rid of Cersei before Dany arrives. Maybe we get a three-way war for the throne, leaving the north on the sidelines, until Dany (and maybe even Aegon?) take their attention north for a while.

Doesn't Jaime have a dream where the light of his sword goes out before Brienne's? I remember that being used in theories that she'd outlive him. Another fairly popular theory used to be that we'd see the Rock when Cersei escaped there with Tommen after Faegon took KL. No idea how the timing works out and what Cersei might actually do in the west, but Dany's death has to be the last big moment before the council crowns Bran.

I agree with SeanC that the showrunners so clearly loved Sansa/Tyrion (and propped it at every available opportunity from season 2 to season 8) that they would never ever have changed GRRM's endgame to remove it. While there's still some argument whether Sansa is LOW, QITN or Rickon's guardian, she clearly ends up in the North and Tyrion is the Hand in the south.

[YaddaYadda]

5 hours ago, ElizaD said:

I agree with SeanC that the showrunners so clearly loved Sansa/Tyrion (and propped it at every available opportunity from season 2 to season 😎 that they would never ever have changed GRRM's endgame to remove it. While there's still some argument whether Sansa is LOW, QITN or Rickon's guardian, she clearly ends up in the North and Tyrion is the Hand in the south.

Sansa is a minor in the books. She is 13 currently. Depending how many months pass in WoW and DoS, she might need a regent herself.

Edited May 23, 2019 by YaddaYadda

[loki567]

I don't agree that the show "propped up," Tyrion/Sansa. If anything, it's a much bigger deal in the books where several times it's mentioned that Tyrion and Sansa are still married and they still think about each other in their PoVs. The show completely dropped it after S4 besides their few interactions in S8. 

The books have a more middle ages sensibility about the marriage where child marriage is not such a big deal and Tyrion is in his 20s. The show has a more modern sensibility. Peter Dinklage was nearly 40 when the show started filming while Sophie Turner was 14. The writers never wanted to look at those two sharing scenes in a romantic context. 

And because of that, I'm also wondering if Sansa's ending might be completely different from the books to the screen and she remains married to Tyrion. I think the rape backlash from S5 led to the writers pushing hard on Sansa being a strong, powerful, independent woman.  

It's hard to imagine the ending goes down the same with The North alone being able to break off without Dorne or The Iron Islands doing the same thing. 

I think at the end of the story, The Seven Kingdoms will still be the Seven Kingdoms. D&D just wanted Sansa in some sort of a power position to counteract any sexism claims about women not having agency in the story. 

Edited May 23, 2019 by loki567

[SeanC]

41 minutes ago, loki567 said:

I don't agree that the show "propped up," Tyrion/Sansa. If anything, it's a much bigger deal in the books where several times it's mentioned that Tyrion and Sansa are still married and they still think about each other in their PoVs. The show completely dropped it after S4 besides their few interactions in S8. 

The books have a more middle ages sensibility about the marriage where child marriage is not such a big deal and Tyrion is in his 20s. The show has a more modern sensibility. Peter Dinklake was nearly 40 when the show started filming while Sophie Turner was 14. The writers never wanted to look at those two sharing scenes in a romantic context. 

Merely alluding to them being married isn’t the same thing as boosting the relationship.

The Tyrion/Sansa relationship in the books is unworkable, and, when they’re together, almost entirely toxic.  Sansa notes he’s nicer than the other Lannisters but finds him physically repulsive (very markedly different from how she comes to think about, say, the disfigured Hound) and has no emotional connection to him.  Tyrion has some sympathy for her, but he doesn’t understand her at all.  The books don’t whitewash that the two are fundamentally not on the same side, and their personalities are not compatible.

The show, while removing Tyrion’s overt and inappropriate sexual interest (we never get TV Tyrion thinking about how attractive he finds a twelve-year-old), makes it a much warmer, friendlier, and more respectful relationship pretty much from the get-go.  And the writers regularly had the two characters speak positively about each other to third parties and created moments like the hand kiss in 803, which have nothing remotely equivalent in the extant text.  It would have been easy to make the relationship overtly romantic based on what was already established.

Which is why it’s definitely not happening in the books.

The idea of it being dropped due to the rape backlash doesn’t make much sense either; Sansa finding real love would have been very, very easy to sell as empowering, and the writers as of Season 8 were still bumbling into writing lines that sound like Sansa is attributing her character growth to being raped and abused.

[loki567]

11 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Merely alluding to them being married isn’t the same thing as boosting the relationship.

I don't want to sound pro-Tyrion/Sansa because I'm not. But I believe there's a reason that Martin is keeping it in the audience's minds. By the time they meet again, there's going to be major character development on both sides and there was suppose to be the five-year time jump which would have made Sansa 17 or 18. Their relationship would have been on much more palatable ground for book readers to get behind it.  

Virtually all of the Tyrion/Sansa scenes in the show happened S3 and S4, and then it's dropped until they're reunited in S8. Even then, there was no definite conclusion to it. I think it was simply a case that D&D didn't want to write romantic scenes for Sophie Turner and Peter Dinklage. 

As for their marriage in GoT: Tyrion is whitewashed in the show, the writers didn't want any extra grief coming Sansa's way for being too anti-Tyrion, so the entire marriage was written in a more positive light. 

25 minutes ago, SeanC said:

The idea of it being dropped due to the rape backlash doesn’t make much sense either; Sansa finding real love would have been very, very easy to sell as empowering, and the writers as of Season 8 were still bumbling into writing lines that sound like Sansa is attributing her character growth to being raped and abused.

Like you said, the writers used rape as positive character development. What they might find empowering is completely different from what most people find empowering. 

As for Sansa finding love again, there was almost literally no one who could have been an acceptable choice (for the audience) in the last season. Either they were too old, related to her, or would have been completely out of left field. I guess she could have had a casual hook-up with Pod. 

The fact there are so few romantic options available for Sansa at the end of the story, is once again something that I think suggests Tyrion/Sansa.  

[benteen]

I've felt for a while that Pod probably would have been the best choice for Sansa based on the surviving cast of characters.  A legitimately good guy from a lesser branch of a more noble house, wouldn't hurt her or dominate her and could fight in her name.   He's loyal to those around him as well.

Although by the end of the show, he has many powerful friends in Tyrion, Bronn and Brienne.

Edited May 23, 2019 by benteen

[YaddaYadda]

35 minutes ago, loki567 said:

I don't want to sound pro-Tyrion/Sansa because I'm not. But I believe there's a reason that Martin is keeping it in the audience's minds. By the time they meet again, there's going to be major character development on both sides and there was suppose to be the five-year time jump which would have made Sansa 17 or 18. Their relationship would have been on much more palatable ground for book readers to get behind it.  

I think the reason he wants us to keep that in mind is because of LF's plans to marry Sansa off to Harry Hardyng. She is already married. She cannot take a second husband unless the first one is dead.

The marriage is there to mess with LF's plans. And as it happens, Jon Conn & Co know that Tyrion is still alive because they were with him.

Edited May 23, 2019 by YaddaYadda

[Maximum Taco]

31 minutes ago, benteen said:

I've felt for a while that Pod probably would have been the best choice for Sansa based on the surviving cast of characters.  A legitimately good guy from a lesser branch of a more noble house, wouldn't hurt her or dominate her and could fight in her name.   He's loyal to those around him as well.

Although by the end of the show, he has many powerful friends in Tyrion, Bronn and Brienne.

Show Pod, sure. Also added that he's apparently the best lover in the Seven Kingdoms, so good that the whores won't take his money. 

Book Pod not so much, he's a teary eyed squire who can barely swing a sword. Although he does have a sharp memory. 

[SeanC]

3 hours ago, loki567 said:

But I believe there's a reason that Martin is keeping it in the audience's minds. By the time they meet again, there's going to be major character development on both sides and there was suppose to be the five-year time jump which would have made Sansa 17 or 18. Their relationship would have been on much more palatable ground for book readers to get behind it.  

None of the character development either of them is going through is in the direction of making them more suitable for each other.

The mentions of the marriage in the books are more or less exclusively in the context of it being a plot point in Sansa’s story that she can’t easily marry somebody else.

Sansa’s mentions of Tyrion in the show post-KL were in a much more positive light.

Quote

As for Sansa finding love again, there was almost literally no one who could have been an acceptable choice (for the audience) in the last season. Either they were too old, related to her, or would have been completely out of left field.

There is no basis for thinking the audience would consider Tyrion too old for Sansa.  Indeed, there’s strong evidence of the opposite, because Sansa/Tyrion had strong audience support even in Season 3 when the character was supposed to be 14 (and a hostage).

Edited May 23, 2019 by SeanC

[Wouter]

18 hours ago, Edith said:

Back when GRRM discussed axing the 5 year gap, he said "If a twelve-year old has to conquer the world, then so be it."

Bran is the answer!

Indeed. Some were convinced (before S8) it had to be Arya, but their ages are close

18 hours ago, loki567 said:

Margaery - I'm really curious if Margaery might survive the story. She might die in the Sept explosion but that might also be a show-only invention. Natalie Dormer wanted out of the show for years and D&D have that tendency to kill characters they don't need any more for story purposes. I can't imagine the Tyrells will be completely wiped off the map in the books. 

Stannis/Littlefinger - these are the two characters I'm most curious in the role they'll play in how the story ends. They're major characters the show marginalized to an extreme degree. Stannis might be the one to actually free the North from the Boltons while Littlefinger has almost been positioned as the series' human big bad. 

How will Stannis react to Robb's will naming Jon as his heir? How will the burning of Shireen go down? How will Littlefinger react to Dany? 

I think these two will make into the last book at least. 

With the sept explosion likely not in the books, Margaery could still survive (I hope so, anyway). With or without Margaery, the Tyrells have a large family in the books, including Margaery's brothers Garlan and Willas which were left out of the show (and a ton of cousins). They are likely to survive in some fashion.

Stannis will likely defeat the Boltons in the battle of the frozen lake, and they maybe (or not) take Winterfell by the backdoor. His demise may come from the Others instead.

Littlefinger is likely already aware of Dany (he teased Sansa with his "three queens" comments, right after one of his merchant ships returned from Essos). But I think his role will be essentially the same as in the show, getting offed by Sansa, with or without help from her siblings. Sansa has to get rid of him to be a player in her own right, as LF's aims are ultimately not compatible with her own. A more interesting question, IMO, is how Sansa will react to Dany - in the books. I doubt it will be like in the show, even if book Sansa feels just as threatened by Dany as the show equivalent.

14 hours ago, SeanC said:

While this isn't something I feel confident in ruling out alternatives, I think the most likely outcome is that Littlefinger never makes it out of the Vale in the books.  He's Sansa's to defeat, and the show, ironically, was a good demonstration of how introducing too many other major characters into the plot tends to impede the central dynamic between those characters.  The Vale has been constructed as an ideal, overall neutral stage for this political drama to play out.

I agree. Arya may get involved in that storyline though, based on GRRM's comments that they have issues to work out (which I think may well happen in the Vale). I also see Bran using his powers to warn Sansa about LF and feed her suggestions.

What the show indicates is that Sansa comes out on top of this struggle, getting the very important Vale (fresh food and fresh soldiers) on the side of the Starks.

5 hours ago, loki567 said:

It's hard to imagine the ending goes down the same with The North alone being able to break off without Dorne or The Iron Islands doing the same thing.

It's certainly possible that the 7K remain the 7K. However, there might be a reason why the North would secede (allthough it remains to be seen if they are in any shape to do so, by the end of the books, unless Braavos decides an independent north is in its interests) even if Dorne doesn't. Along with the Ironborn, who are not well-loved, they are the only ones to actively declare independence and it may yet be a big deal after all.

3 hours ago, benteen said:

I've felt for a while that Pod probably would have been the best choice for Sansa based on the surviving cast of characters.  A legitimately good guy from a lesser branch of a more noble house, wouldn't hurt her or dominate her and could fight in her name.   He's loyal to those around him as well.

I also think book-Pod would be a pretty good choice for Sansa in the books, as someone who is not at all threatening yet loyal and kind. Allthough politically, there would be far better options, like Harry.

12 hours ago, ElizaD said:

Doesn't Jaime have a dream where the light of his sword goes out before Brienne's? I remember that being used in theories that she'd outlive him. Another fairly popular theory used to be that we'd see the Rock when Cersei escaped there with Tommen after Faegon took KL. No idea how the timing works out and what Cersei might actually do in the west, but Dany's death has to be the last big moment before the council crowns Bran.

GRRM did promise we'd see Casterly Rock (in the next book, IIRC) and with Tyrion still far away, Cersei is a prime candidate. Jaime may also get there without Cersei, though.

Edited May 23, 2019 by Wouter

[benteen]

3 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

Show Pod, sure. Also added that he's apparently the best lover in the Seven Kingdoms, so good that the whores won't take his money. 

Book Pod not so much, he's a teary eyed squire who can barely swing a sword. Although he does have a sharp memory. 

Show Pod, yes.  Book Pod I believe is closer to Book Sansa's ages but there would indeed be much better options for her politically in the books.

[Umbelina]

When the books begin Daenerys is 13.  Bran is 7.  Jon's 14, Sansa is 11, Arya 9.  More: 

There has been no 5 year time jump, and I either can't remember, or I'm not sure of how old she is in the last books.  Anyone?

From memory, probably only 2 years have passed, possibly 3 but doubtful by the time Dany is in Meereen.  ??

Edited May 23, 2019 by Umbelina

[Wouter]

41 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

When the books begin Daenerys is 13.  Bran is 7.  Jon's 14, Sansa is 11, Arya 9.  More: 

There has been no 5 year time jump, and I either can't remember, or I'm not sure of how old she is in the last books.  Anyone?

From memory, probably only 2 years have passed, possibly 3 but doubtful by the time Dany is in Meereen.  ??

Sansa is close to her 14th birthday by the end of AFFC, may have turned 14 by the time of her sample chapter in TWOW.

[loki567]

Another point about Margaery surviving, it is possible that she could marry Bran? He'll need a queen. But it's unlikely they'll have any children. 

Ugh. Once again it racks my brain that GRRM would pick him for king. Just seems in the face of everything that comes before in the story that the lords of Westeros would pick the kid who can't produce a heir. 

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

When the books begin Daenerys is 13.  Bran is 7.  Jon's 14, Sansa is 11, Arya 9.  More: 

Why is it AC for the books, AL for the show? 

I completely forgot about some of these. Like Brienne still being only a teenager in the books. 

Is Yara really supposed to be about a decade older than Theon on the show? I know she's the older sibling, but I never thought the age difference was so big. 

[benteen]

Ned and Robert's age never made much sense to me in the books.  They were like 19-20.  Why were they still being fostered by Jon Arryn at that point?  Robert would have been more than old enough to have taken his role as Lord of Storm's End.  I can see Robert shirking his duties and hanging around with his buddies in the Vale but still being fostered?  I can see Ned serving in the Vale for Jon fighting against the Mountain clans but again, he's too old to be fostered. 

Robert was a knight and probably would have liked fighting the Mountain clans but again, he's old enough to assume his official duties.

[SeanC]

6 hours ago, benteen said:

Ned and Robert's age never made much sense to me in the books.  They were like 19-20.  Why were they still being fostered by Jon Arryn at that point?  Robert would have been more than old enough to have taken his role as Lord of Storm's End.  I can see Robert shirking his duties and hanging around with his buddies in the Vale but still being fostered?  I can see Ned serving in the Vale for Jon fighting against the Mountain clans but again, he's too old to be fostered. 

Robert was a knight and probably would have liked fighting the Mountain clans but again, he's old enough to assume his official duties.

GRRM was asked about this and said that Robert was visiting at the time, I believe, not living in the Vale fulltime.

Apparently the writers were considering having Jorah survive, which implicitly suggests that whatever ending details GRRM gave them did not extend very far beyond the top tier of characters, if at all.

[Minneapple]

On 5/23/2019 at 10:25 PM, SeanC said:

Apparently the writers were considering having Jorah survive, which implicitly suggests that whatever ending details GRRM gave them did not extend very far beyond the top tier of characters, if at all.

I believe this. I mean, Margaery might have a different end in the books, too, as she was written off the show because Natalie Dormer wanted out. I think George just gave D&D a very basic outline of how he saw the endings of the Starks, Dany and the Lannisters. I think D&D deliberately removed the valonqar prophecy because they didn't want Jaime to kill Cersei, which is how I think it will play out in the books.

[Umbelina]

On 5/23/2019 at 7:25 PM, SeanC said:

GRRM was asked about this and said that Robert was visiting at the time, I believe, not living in the Vale fulltime.

Apparently the writers were considering having Jorah survive, which implicitly suggests that whatever ending details GRRM gave them did not extend very far beyond the top tier of characters, if at all.

Yup, and honestly, THIS makes so much more sense.  Instead of having Tyrion walk around the city, and adjust chairs, and have his long soliloquies, we could have had reasons to help us understand Dany's despair and distrust, and eventual decision of "Fire and Blood."

9 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

I believe this. I mean, Margaery might have a different end in the books, too, as she was written off the show because Natalie Dormer wanted out. I think George just gave D&D a very basic outline of how he saw the endings of the Starks, Dany and the Lannisters. I think D&D deliberately removed the valonqar prophecy because they didn't want Jaime to kill Cersei, which is how I think it will play out in the books.

Oh, Cersei in the books and Cersei on the show are two completely different characters, so that's the part of the ending I am simply dismissing as "bullshit."

Edited May 25, 2019 by Umbelina

[SeanC]

25 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

I believe this. I mean, Margaery might have a different end in the books, too, as she was written off the show because Natalie Dormer wanted out. 

Not as I understand it.  Dormer asked to be let go around Season 5 in order to do a particular project, and was told that couldn't happen, but that they were planning to have her storyline end in Season 6.

[WindyNights]

On 5/23/2019 at 12:31 PM, loki567 said:

Another point about Margaery surviving, it is possible that she could marry Bran? He'll need a queen. But it's unlikely they'll have any children. 

Ugh. Once again it racks my brain that GRRM would pick him for king. Just seems in the face of everything that comes before in the story that the lords of Westeros would pick the kid who can't produce a heir. 

Bran doesn’t need heirs. He’s going to near-immortal. A literal God-king. 

Plus magic powers

Bran’s one man dynasty. The Eternal King.

GRRM: But people don’t think through the consequences. They have these very powerful wizards but yet they still have kings and lords who are… why wouldn’t the wizards rule the world? I mean, power gravitates to it, you know.

[Ailianna]

I"ve always figured wizards are like a lot of really powerful people in the real world.  If your power base isn't political, why waste time doing the drudge work of running the world when you can just be powerful and do whatever else you want?  Wizards, Bill Gates, Oprah--why would running the world make their lives better?  Not all power wants to be in charge of things.  It's a lot of hassle.

[Minneapple]

Interview with Isaac Hempstead Wright

In which he confirms that Bran being king is indeed from GRRM and not from D&D.

[Creators] David [Benioff] and Dan [Weiss] told me there were two things [author] George R.R. Martin had planned for Bran, and that was the Hodor revelation, and that he would be king.

I know Bran's story is complex, and not really visually friendly. I just wish D&D had cared about him more and put more effort into his character so that him being king didn't feel so tacked on in the show. I mean they ditched his character for an entire season. In GRRM's story I can see it happening. The story begins with Bran, after all. 

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Minneapple said:

Interview with Isaac Hempstead Wright

In which he confirms that Bran being king is indeed from GRRM and not from D&D.

I know Bran's story is complex, and not really visually friendly. I just wish D&D had cared about him more and put more effort into his character so that him being king didn't feel so tacked on in the show. I mean they ditched his character for an entire season. In GRRM's story I can see it happening. The story begins with Bran, after all. 

The more disturbing thing from that interview is that it implies that GRRM only told D&D two things about Bran's arc post-ADWD: the Hodor thing and that he ends up king. 

I had been under the impression that GRRM told D&D in 2013 the rough shape of the post-ADWD storylines, but if all he told them was the three WTF moments and the endpoints of the characters whose endpoints he knew, which was certainly not an exhaustive list--Bryan Cogman implied that GRRM didn't tell them what Sandor was doing post-AFFC--no wonder they had so much trouble. What does that suggest about the other storylines? Maybe all they knew about Tyrion's arc post-ADWD (and Tyrion's TWOW chapters) is that he ends up as Bran's Hand. Maybe all they knew about Sansa's arc post-ADWD (and the TWOW chapter) is that she ends up as Queen in the North. Maybe all they knew about Arya's arc post-ADWD (and her TWOW chapter) is that she ends up leaving Westeros forever. I mean, wow. No wonder they had such a hard time.

I'm also wondering whether this has anything to do with the decision to scrap Jaime's revelation that Tysha wasn't a prostitute from the show, which would have happened in S4. D&D had that fateful spring meeting with GRRM in 2013 when they were still writing the S4 scripts. I used to think that perhaps D&D learned something about the resolution of Tysha's fate from GRRM in that meeting that made them decide to leave it out of the show, but now I'm thinking that GRRM didn't tell them anything about what he planned on doing with Tysha, so they just decided to leave the whole thing out rather than try to sort it out on their own.