Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

magdalene · June 17, 2015

To me, losing a hand is magnitudes WORSE than the Walk of Shame. Walking naked through Kings Landing while people shout and throw things at you is temporary. One-handedness is forever.

Nods. I don't like the walk of shame because I wanted Cersei punished for her crimes without slut shaming her. Execute her or lock her up forever but what they did to her was wrong. And what happened to Jaime is worse, it isn't just the loss of a limb, he lost his identity when he lost his sword hand. We never got to see this on the show because the showrunners don't like Jaime and show Jaime was never shown to be the superb sword fighter he is in the books. So the loss of his hand is maybe a bit muted on the show? In the books it is a really big deal.

Did anybody else get the impression reading the books that GRRM does like Jaime somewhat (not as much as his favorite Tyrion obviously) but really dislikes Cersei? I thought that especially when reading the Cersei POV. Ironically of course on the show it's exactly the opposite.

WearyTraveler · June 17, 2015

I'm thinking maybe the show is planning to reveal something similar for Doran in 6. Maybe the plan to kill Myrcella wasn't Ellaria's alone. Maybe Trystane is in on it and Doran authorized it. And maybe Doran is planning to marry Trystane to Dany now.

I couldn't figure out why Ellaria was crying when she kissed Doran's ring. We didn't see him give her the treatment he gave Arienne in the books. Doran locked Arienne in a tower and cut her off from the Sand Snakes, all her friends (one of whom had betrayed her) and himself. He didn't torture her or denied her food, but gave her time to reflect alone, and by the time he spoke to her and explained everything Arienne was humbled and more receptive. When she finally found out about his long game, she was awed and gained a new respect for him.

With the show merging Ellaria and Arienne's plot, I wondered why Ellaria was crying and showing such devotion to Doran when she kissed his ring, given that she had not been subjected to the same treatment Arienne got in the book. Then I wondered why Ellaria would do something like killing Myrcella against Doran's wishes, which would guarantee her death, a consequence he clearly outlined for her in front of all the Sand Snakes.

So, I got to thinking, what if Doran was in on the plan? What if Doran commanded Ellaria to do exactly what she did? What if Varys, who has been missing in action for a long time had been in Dorne, finalizing plans with Doran to marry Trystane to Daenerys and this is how the show will explain his absence and sudden return in Mereen?

In the books Aegon has just landed in Westeros and Arienne is on her way to meet him. Griffin would be a fool if he didn't encourage Aegon to keep the pact and marry into Dorne so they could get Doran's army. Meanwhile, Jaime is following Brienne to what can only be a meeting with LSH, who might just not kill him but keep him prisoner and start making demands of the throne. All this while the Ironborn attack The Reach. The throne is being threatened on three fronts, the South, The Reach and the Riverlands. The North is busy with problems of their own (lack of support and sabotage of the Boltons, Stannis planning on attacking Winterfell), plus it would take their armies a pretty long time to come to their aid. Kevan is dead, so the West and Casterly Rock are adrift, and who knows what would take for whoever leads them to get some semblance of organization. LF holds the East and the Vale, but I doubt he'd get his men into any battle. He'll tell the Lords of the Vale that they should do what Lysa did during the War of the 5 Kings and stay out of it.

So, what if, on the show, Jaime is still bound to be a prisoner, not of LSH, but Doran's? After getting over the shock of Myrcella dying in his arms Jaime goes above deck intent on seizing Trystane only to find Bronn captive, a bunch of swords pointed at him and Trystane directing the captain to turn back to Dorne. Doran reveals his plan and keeps Jaime prisoner, then he sends the Sand Snakes and Ellaria to KL where no one would touch them because he has Jaime. This will merge LSH storyline with Doran's and make Jaime a prisoner. And we know the Ironborn are going to make an appearance, since they were casting a character that sounded pretty much like Euron Greyjoy. Meanwhile, Ramsey has lost his pets and the snows might resume pretty soon, effectively keeping the Boltons and their men north of Moat Cailin. So, the throne will be in a situation pretty similar to the books.

Your thoughts?

Edited June 18, 2015 by WearyTraveler

Pete Martell · June 17, 2015

Now that the season is over, I've been thinking about why they cut Arianne from Dorne. Before the season, I think the consensus was that they needed the three Sand Snakes because they had long term importance and Arianne did not. In the end, we got a dead Myrcella and nothing else out of Dorne. No reveal of Doran's plan and Trystane is looking more like a Lannister hostage than a power player. It really felt like we could never see any of the characters in Dorne again after that finale and no one would care.

It makes even less sense to me now to cut Arianne and the queenmaker plot. They still could have ended up with Myrcella dead, and at least it would have made more sense than killing her for revenge. Upsetting the Lannister dynasty by making her queen would be more complete revenge than just straight up killing her. None of this would have taken more time than what we actually got.

I think they likely decided the story was a time-filler they could use to strengthen Jaime's emo woe/redemption arc, to have more of Bronn when his story use was over after Tyrion's escape, and to showcase pretty scenery and of course, random female nudity and wild women who need to learn their place and always cause problems for the men (a running theme with D&D's adaptation). They also had genre beloved guest stars who were, in their mind, likely going to be enough of a "name" to quell fan criticism. The ending amounted to more of the same - angst for Jaime and Cersei, and another pseudo-artistic feather in the cap of the narrative of the

oh-so-tragic self-started decline of the Lannisters, which probably would be dramatically powerful if it weren't delivered with all the poignancy of a fist to the stomach.

I don't believe anyone among TPTB gave a shit about the story, but they likely thought they could just slap things together with an "exotic" label and have people coo over costumes and poison and oh me oh my, and everyone would be thrilled.

BlackberryJam · June 17, 2015

Running with the idea...maybe Bronn in on the plot as well. It's not like he hasn't abandoned someone before and he did say he'd kill anyone for a price. What if Doran offered him a bigger bag of gold and a better wife and castle?

Ripley68 · June 18, 2015

They've said all along that the GRRM showed the showrunners where his books go and what everyone's end was; what if he lied to them? He tells them Jon dies, but keeps him alive in the books. All the other shocking deaths made sense, Jon's does not. The other shocking deaths happened in the middleish of the other books, Jon's is at the end, it just doesn't follow GRRM's methods. Everyone's theories about where people are going to end up must drive GRRM nuts, especially if any of them are right, and he may be changing directions because he doesn't like that people guessed his end game. He obviously never listened to Hitchcock - if you introduce a gun in the first act, it damn well better be used by the last. Jon's parentage, Benjen, Gendry (well, that's the show). Most people hated the ironborn story line, showrunners dump them, GRRM drags it out further and comes up with some far fetched way to connect them. I've very worried about the hiring of a Euron for next season - hopefully it's just to bring in the dragonhorn, though we do need someone like Doran's son to let the other two dragons out (though maybe Tyrion will get curious - they better not roast him!).

BlackberryJam · June 18, 2015

They've said all along that the GRRM showed the showrunners where his books go and what everyone's end was; what if he lied to them?

HBO sues him into eternity, and I'm pretty sure D&D and HBO get the books pre-publication. They'd probably attempt to get an injunction to prevent publication so we'd never see them.

Umbelina · June 18, 2015

One thing I was thinking is that even though the editing might not be done, or the books in perfect shape, I'd bet GRRM has at least written quite a bit. Maybe he will let them see what he has? I really don't think GRRM wants HBO to go too far afield, even though it is an adaption.

elzin · June 18, 2015

I'm sure the contract allows for him to actually write the books how he wants, that they "bought" an outline for the unwritten books without a guarantee of how exactly it would be in the end. He would not commit via contract to write things a certain way in case he changed his mind. I've read enough of his original outline that came out recently to know how much he changes between conception and publication. He would not tie his own hands.

I don't want to go too much into the horror of Sansa's marriage, but now that the season is over and we saw the outcome of her storyline, it's making me really mad again and I can't help but bring it up again.

Why did she have to actually get married and raped? If they felt they just had to have her in Winterfell, why couldn't she just be there and they be engaged, maybe waiting for the High Septon to set aside her OTHER MARRIAGE? What purpose did the marriage, rape, and beatings serve? She didn't get empowered. She didn't do anything but get abused. Wouldn't the story have "worked" just as "well" if only the THREATS of all these things loomed? That maybe Myranda was coming after her at the end as her one chance to get ride of the bride before the wedding? Sansa-in-danger could have been enough motivation for Theon to throw aside his Reekness. So really, was there any point other than brutalizing her for the shock factor?

MrWhyt · June 18, 2015

They've said all along that the GRRM showed the showrunners where his books go and what everyone's end was; what if he lied to them?

Then the books and the show diverge even further, but i doubt that big of an event would be a divergence. Besides what does it gain him to lie? I don't think the details of the deal have ever been made public but i bet he's making phat stacks of cash, why endanger his relationship with HBO?

He obviously never listened to Hitchcock - if you introduce a gun in the first act, it damn well better be used by the last.

That was Chekov and it was his opinion on efficient writing, not some unbreakable law.

WearyTraveler · June 18, 2015

I would add that Martin has publicly said that some fans have already guessed some of the outcomes. When asked if he would changed the story because of this, he said no. That he had put the clues there for a reason and that it wouldn't be fair to suddenly change everything just to surprise people for the sake of surprising them.

He's slow to write, he's picky, he's stubborn, but I don't think he'd be willing to do what in his mind (and many others) would be damaging the integrity of the story just out of spite, or to have the final word. I think he values his work too highly for that (whether we attach the same value to it is a different matter).

That said, maybe some parts of his original plan will change as he writes, but I doubt it'd be major story arcs. He's had the same ending planned for years, and despite all the world -building and the addition of side plots and superfluous characters, one can see that the bones of the story remain the same (or at least I can see that).

scarynikki12 · June 18, 2015

I'd bet GRRM has at least written quite a bit

When he was on Conan following the Red Wedding he said something about writing 1000 pages. It seemed like he meant he'd already written that many but he could have been talking about his goal for books 6 and 7. I remember hoping he meant that he'd written 1000 pages between the two books but that was when I still thought there was a chance all the books would get released before series end (ah, naive me, how I want to pat you on the head). I do think he's written most, if not all of the next book, but he just dawdles when it comes to the ending.

loki567 · June 18, 2015

Why did she have to actually get married and raped? If they felt they just had to have her in Winterfell, why couldn't she just be there and they be engaged, maybe waiting for the High Septon to set aside her OTHER MARRIAGE? What purpose did the marriage, rape, and beatings serve? She didn't get empowered. She didn't do anything but get abused. Wouldn't the story have "worked" just as "well" if only the THREATS of all these things loomed? That maybe Myranda was coming after her at the end as her one chance to get ride of the bride before the wedding? Sansa-in-danger could have been enough motivation for Theon to throw aside his Reekness. So really, was there any point other than brutalizing her for the shock factor?

Nope. Nobody can convince me there was any other reason to get a big, "shocking," moment mid-season with the rape scene. There was zero character development for Sansa, or even Theon, beyond that and she spent the rest of the season locked in a room. I'd give it more credit if there was a battle for Winterfell, you get some suspense out of Sansa being trapped between two armies, but obviously we all know how that went. I don't think Sansa ever acknowledges the possibility of ending up with Stannis, Stannis never finds out about Sansa being married to Ramsay and he never shares a scene with the Boltons. For all extensive purposes, they were two storylines that had nothing to do with each other even if they took place in the same area.

Not to mention Cogman's "It was a choice because she's not the same little girl anymore." But she spends half the season suffering pain from a psycho and spends the rest of it trying to escape. Now she's on the run. That's literally her entire series arc up to this point. And then you consider that Littlefinger is on his way to the North with a large army to join up with the Boltons so he could conceivably give her some protection. So Sansa for all extensive purposes has made her situation more dangerous. It's an idiotic storyline.

WearyTraveler · June 18, 2015

The phrase is "for all intents and purposes", which means "in every practical sense".

But don't feel bad, apparently this is a common eggcorn (substitution of a word or phrase for a word or words that sound similar or identical in the speaker's dialect) which was first noticed 8 years ago when over a thousand people were using it (the search count today is 134,000!). The more common eggcorn for this phrase is "for all intensive purposes".

I just learned that the term eggcorn exists! Something new, every day ;-) ! (yes, I'm that nerdy)

Avaleigh · June 18, 2015

I'm thinking maybe the show is planning to reveal something similar for Doran in 6. Maybe the plan to kill Myrcella wasn't Ellaria's alone. Maybe Trystane is in on it and Doran authorized it. And maybe Doran is planning to marry Trystane to Dany now.

I couldn't figure out why Ellaria was crying when she kissed Doran's ring. We didn't see him give her the treatment he gave Arienne in the books. Doran locked Arienne in a tower and cut her off the Sand Snakes, all her friends (one of whom had betrayed her) and himself. He didn't torture her or denied her food, but gave her time to reflect alone, and by the time he spoke to her and explained everything Arienne was humbled and more receptive. When she finally found out about his long game, she was awed and gained a new respect for him.

With the show merging Ellaria and Arienne's plot, I wondered why Ellaria was crying and showing such devotion to Doran when she kissed his ring, given that she had not been subjected to the same treatment Arienne got in the book. Then I wondered why Ellaria would do something like killing Myrcella against Doran's wishes, which would guarantee her death, a consequence he clearly outlined for her in front of all the Sand Snakes.

So, I got to thinking, what if Doran was in on the plan? What if Doran commanded Ellaria to do exactly what she did? What if Varys, who has been missing in action for a long time had been in Dorne, finalizing plans with Doran to marry Trystane to Daenerys and this is how the show will explain his absence and sudden return in Mereen?

In the books Aegon has just landed in Westeros and Arienne is on her way to meet him. Griffin would be a fool if he didn't encourage Aegon to keep the pact and marry into Dorne so they could get Doran's army. Meanwhile, Jaime is following Brienne to what can only be a meeting with LSH, who might just not kill him but keep him prisoner and start making demands of the throne. All this while the Ironborn attack The Reach. The throne is being threatened on three fronts, the South, The Reach and the Riverlands. The North is busy with problems of their own (lack of support and sabotage of the Boltons, Stannis planning on attacking Winterfell), plus it would take their armies a pretty long time to come to their aid. Kevan is dead, so the West and Casterly Rock are adrift, and who knows what would take for whoever leads them to get some semblance of organization. LF holds the East and the Vale, but I doubt he'd get his men into any battle. He'll tell the Lords of the Vale that they should do what Lysa did during the War of the 5 Kings and stay out of it.

So, what if, on the show, Jaime is still bound to be a prisoner, not of LSH, but Doran's? After getting over the shock of Myrcella dying in his arms Jaime goes above deck intent on seizing Trystane only to find Bronn captive, a bunch of swords pointed at him and Trystane directing the captain to turn back to Dorne. Doran reveals his plan and keeps Jaime prisoner, then he sends the Sand Snakes and Ellaria to KL where no one would touch them because he has Jaime. This will merge LHS storyline with Doran's and make Jaimie a prisoner. And we know the Ironborn are going to make an appearance, since they were casting a character that sounded pretty much like Euron Greyjoy. Meanwhile, Ramsey has lost his pets and the snows might resume pretty soon, effectively keeping the Boltons and their men north of Moat Cailin. So, the throne will be in a situation pretty similar to the books.

Your thoughts?

I like this idea I only feel like there should have been some follow up scene with Doran talking to Ellaria about how everything is going to plan or have the scene where Jaime runs up to the deck to get help only to find Bronn tied up as you suggested. The boat seems like it's going to go to King's Landing and one of the showrunners made a comment about how Cersei isn't going to be happy when Jaime gets back so I feel like he probably is going to make it back I just don't know if Trystane will be with him or not. I would think for any realistic chance for Trystane to get away Jaime would have to let him go before they get to King's Landing. Jaime will let him go before he knows about the walk and Cersei will be totally pissed off and done with him. I would say that she'd try to have him sent to the Wall since that would be a way to get Jaime up North and back with Brienne, but something like that would probably conflict with him being around to kill Cersei if and when she tries to burn King's Landing to the ground so I'm not sure if that would work.

WearyTraveler · June 18, 2015

I like this idea I only feel like there should have been some follow up scene with Doran talking to Ellaria about how everything is going to plan or have the scene where Jaime runs up to the deck to get help only to find Bronn tied up as you suggested. The boat seems like it's going to go to King's Landing and one of the showrunners made a comment about how Cersei isn't going to be happy when Jaime gets back so I feel like he probably is going to make it back I just don't know if Trystane will be with him or not. I would think for any realistic chance for Trystane to get away Jaime would have to let him go before they get to King's Landing. Jaime will let him go before he knows about the walk and Cersei will be totally pissed off and done with him. I would say that she'd try to have him sent to the Wall since that would be a way to get Jaime up North and back with Brienne, but something like that would probably conflict with him being around to kill Cersei if and when she tries to burn King's Landing to the ground so I'm not sure if that would work.

Yes, you're right, some of it wouldn't work. I do think however that the part about Doran being in on it because he's planning to marry Trystane to Daenerys is plausible. Or maybe I really just want Dorne to have a plot because what we got was very sub par

J----av · June 18, 2015

I'm sure the contract allows for him to actually write the books how he wants, that they "bought" an outline for the unwritten books without a guarantee of how exactly it would be in the end. He would not commit via contract to write things a certain way in case he changed his mind. I've read enough of his original outline that came out recently to know how much he changes between conception and publication. He would not tie his own hands.

I don't want to go too much into the horror of Sansa's marriage, but now that the season is over and we saw the outcome of her storyline, it's making me really mad again and I can't help but bring it up again.

Why did she have to actually get married and raped? If they felt they just had to have her in Winterfell, why couldn't she just be there and they be engaged, maybe waiting for the High Septon to set aside her OTHER MARRIAGE? What purpose did the marriage, rape, and beatings serve? She didn't get empowered. She didn't do anything but get abused. Wouldn't the story have "worked" just as "well" if only the THREATS of all these things loomed? That maybe Myranda was coming after her at the end as her one chance to get ride of the bride before the wedding? Sansa-in-danger could have been enough motivation for Theon to throw aside his Reekness. So really, was there any point other than brutalizing her for the shock factor?

Well it was consistent with Ramsay's character. Her not being abused would not be. If she was going to be near Ramsay it would go against character for him not to abuse and torment her.

They should have just kept her in the Vale and not shown her as much this season though.

anamika · June 18, 2015

To me, losing a hand is magnitudes WORSE than the Walk of Shame. Walking naked through Kings Landing while people shout and throw things at you is temporary. One-handedness is forever.

Not really. Being forced to walk naked through a crowd of people while they taunt and throw things at you is torture. It's what American soldiers did to prisoners in Abu Ghraib. Force them to strip and take pictures. It's a form of humiliation that mentally fucks you up. Add to that the fact that Cersei was scared of getting raped by the crowd. So, yeah, not temporary. It will be something that stays with her for the rest of her life.

What I also took issue with was that Cersei's punishment was very sexual in nature, but that Jamie who was also involved in adultery and incest and attempted child murder got away with the loss of his hand. Maybe it's forever. But who the hell cares when one thinks about Bran, crippled as a child and never to have children or a good childhood like Jaime got to experience. Book fans talk about the show being sexist/misogynistic? The books are ten times so, with what happened to Cersei and characters like Jeyne Poole.

Did anybody else get the impression reading the books that GRRM does like Jaime somewhat (not as much as his favorite Tyrion obviously) but really dislikes Cersei? I thought that especially when reading the Cersei POV. Ironically of course on the show it's exactly the opposite.

I like that the show gave Cersei some complexity as opposed to the crazy, cackling fool she was in Feast while GRRM handed over all the nice shades of grey to Jaime. It came across as so hamfisted that I ended up disliking Jaime even more so. His 'Boo-Hoo, I am just a misunderstood bad boy with witty one liners' act got old soon.

Well it was consistent with Ramsay's character. Her not being abused would not be. If she was going to be near Ramsay it would go against character for him not to abuse and torment her.

They should have just kept her in the Vale and not shown her as much this season though.

I disliked the Winterfell/Sansa storyline this season and not because of the rape but because of the loss of the whole Theon/Northern Lords/ Manderly /Mance and spearwives etc. story in ADwD. That was the best part of that book and they cut it out. Theon was absolutely wonderful in ADwD, one of the best characters in the book. In contrast, I don't really care for the Vale/LF/Sansa chapters where Sansa's main mission is to get Sweet Robin to eat his dinner. It was disappointing that the unappealing Vale storyline got dumped in Winterfell and Theon got sidelined for what was his best story arc in the books.

As for rape, Jeyne Poole goes through much, much worse in the books. I think all this storyline does for me is confirm that GRRM's original 93' outline is more or less still right. Characters like Sansa and Jaime are second tier characters whose stories in the show can be changed without altering the end game. Bran had to sit out this season because they could not add to or play around with him.

I rather doubt that Sansa is going to become this great player of the game and outwit LF and all that. At the end of Feast she is still rather naive and trusting and following LF's cues and advice. As far as I can tell and with two books left and the focus shifting to the North and the Others, I don't see how GRRM can believably transition her from where she is now to some expert player. I do think that she will maybe end up North along with LF at some point and that D and D just super accelerated that storyline just like they did with Tyrion meeting Dany. And to do this, they swapped Jeyne Poole with Sansa.

Edited June 18, 2015 by anamika

Avaleigh · June 18, 2015

I'd like for Doran to be in on it but if he were then why keep Jaime alive? Why put Trystane at risk? It would have been easy enough to poison Jaime as well. If Trystane is really meant for Daenerys then you'd think he'd want to keep Trystane in Dorne. Jaime would have been fine with just taking Myrcella to King's Landing. Trystane didn't have to be part of the arrangement.

I agree though that it would be nice for Doran to have more of a long term plan.

Not really. Being forced to walk naked through a crowd of people while they taunt and throw things at you is torture. It's what American soldiers did to prisoners in Abu Ghraib. Force them to strip and take pictures. It's a form of humiliation that mentally fucks you up. Add to that the fact that Cersei was scared of getting raped by the crowd. So, yeah, not temporary. It will be something that stays with her for the rest of her life.

What I also took issue with was that Cersei's punishment was very sexual in nature, but that Jamie who was also involved in adultery and incest and attempted child murder got away with the loss of his hand. Maybe it's forever. But who the hell cares when one thinks about Bran, crippled as a child and never to have children or a good childhood like Jaime got to experience. Book fans talk about the show being sexist/misogynistic? The books are ten times so, with what happened to Cersei and characters like Jeyne Poole.

There's also the fact that Lancel wasn't forced to do a Walk for his part in having an affair with the Queen while she was married. I also don't understand how Cersei is on the hook for a trial for Robert's murder while Lancel gets to skirt away scot free without any hint of a trial for him. How does that work when Lancel was actually freaking there when Robert died and was the one who actually gave him the strong wine?

I agree that there isn't anything temporary about Cersei's punishment. The entire thing was meant to strip her of her power because people are never going to be able to not see that. They'll always see her as that naked, scared, humiliated, limping woman no matter if she's back to being gowned and crowned with a wig on. One of the hardest lines in that chapter is when Cersei is remembering what happened to her grandfather's mistress and she thinks about how one of the men said something like 'She was proud in the beginning but once they got her out of her clothes she was just another whore.' Ugh, I feel like she's always going to think about that now and that's one of the reasons she's taking multiple baths a day now. The event is over but it is in her mind as fresh as ever.

WearyTraveler · June 18, 2015

I'd like for Doran to be in on it but if he were then why keep Jaime alive? Why put Trystane at risk? It would have been easy enough to poison Jaime as well. If Trystane is really meant for Daenerys then you'd think he'd want to keep Trystane in Dorne. Jaime would have been fine with just taking Myrcella to King's Landing. Trystane didn't have to be part of the arrangement.

I agree though that it would be nice for Doran to have more of a long term plan.

There's also the fact that Lancel wasn't forced to do a Walk for his part in having an affair with the Queen while she was married. I also don't understand how Cersei is on the hook for a trial for Robert's murder while Lancel gets to skirt away scot free without any hint of a trial for him. How does that work when Lancel was actually freaking there when Robert died and was the one who actually gave him the strong wine?

I agree that there isn't anything temporary about Cersei's punishment. The entire thing was meant to strip her of her power because people are never going to be able to not see that. They'll always see her as that naked, scared, humiliated, limping woman no matter if she's back to being gowned and crowned with a wig on. One of the hardest lines in that chapter is when Cersei is remembering what happened to her grandfather's mistress and she thinks about how one of the men said something like 'She was proud in the beginning but once they got her out of her clothes she was just another whore.' Ugh, I feel like she's always going to think about that now and that's one of the reasons she's taking multiple baths a day now. The event is over but it is in her mind as fresh as ever.

Maybe Jaime discovers the ruse before they see him and he jumps overboard and escapes? They don't notice, so, the can't go chasing after him. And maybe the boat is not headed to KL, but to Mereen. Just throwing stuff at the wall now. :D

As for Lancel, in the books he did a lot of penance for his crimes after he converted. It was a long time between Blackwater and the next time we see Lancel at Tywin's funeral, and he was still punishing himself in religious fervor when Jaime finds him in the Riverlands, much, much later. That, and the rules of this world were women are so low in the totem pole, make Cersei's punishment being harsher than Lancel's believable, in Westerosi society, at least.

Avaleigh · June 18, 2015

Maybe Jaime discovers the ruse before they see him and he jumps overboard and escapes? They don't notice, so, the can't go chasing after him. And maybe the boat is not headed to KL, but to Mereen. Just throwing stuff at the wall now. :D

As for Lancel, in the books he did a lot of penance for his crimes after he converted. It was a long time between Blackwater and the next time we see Lancel at Tywin's funeral, and he was still punishing himself in religious fervor when Jaime finds him in the Riverlands, much, much later. That, and the rules of this world were women are so low in the totem pole, make Cersei's punishment being harsher than Lancel's believable, in Westerosi society, at least.

I agree that it's totally believable it just rankles. On the show it tells me that the High Septon is full of shit when he's talking about equality.

I was similarly annoyed when the High Sparrow was babbling about the "good people" of King's Landing, as if every single one of those people are somehow 100% good and moral enough for the High Sparrow's tastes when we all know that King's Landing is full of rapists, murderers, and thieves.

I'm very puzzled as to how Jaime and Brienne are going to cross paths again on the show. As stated before I think I will pull a full on Claire Danes in Homeland ugly cry if Jaime and Brienne never meet again. Or a Regina George scream if Jaime does finally meet up with Brienne again only to have her betray him.

The way imprisoned Cersei feels when she refuses to entertain the possibility that Jaime might have abandoned her? That's how I feel in refusing to entertain the idea that Brienne is betraying Jaime to Lady Stoneheart. I don't know if there's much that could shock me more than the idea of it being a scenario where Brienne is straight up leading Jaime to his death. I feel like there has to be more to it, she has to have some other plan, the chapter cut off before she tells him what the deal is--something has to happen to keep it from being a case where she's leading him to his hanging.

I don't think there's all that much that could get me to not want to know how all of this wraps but a premature death like that for Jaime would totally test my patience and resolve.

Jon's death would test me too but I think I could deal. I just think it would be colossally stupid based on everything that has been set up on both the books and the show. Jon just dying and not coming back would feel like a bit of a jerk off and I feel like I'm being nice in putting it that way.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Avaleigh

Advance35 · June 18, 2015

Well it was consistent with Ramsay's character. Her not being abused would not be. If she was going to be near Ramsay it would go against character for him not to abuse and torment her.

They should have just kept her in the Vale and not shown her as much this season though.

I think one of the weddings GRRM mentioned happening in TWOW is going to be Harry/Sansa. While I don't think Harry will be as bad as Ramsay, I don't think it's going to be Wedded bliss (quite the opposite). I always thought Tyrion/Sansa has unfinished business but maybe they don't. Maybe Westeros will concede that Tyrion is dead and Sansa/Alayne proceeds to marry Harry. Though GRRM has set up a rather populated training ground for Sansa in the Vale, I wonder how much he can accomplish for the character in 2 remaining books, especially since there are quite a few more prominent characters with story to be told. I've gotten the impression from D&D commentary, that Sansa's fate (whatever it is) matters, so I have know doubt that she'll end up in the same place as GRRM's version of the character, I just wonder what her endgame is if D&D thought they could remove her from the Vale.

GRRM clearly thinks they are still on track for Sansa's endgame so that makes me question whether the Vale IS just a stop gap for Sansa and maybe Ser Shadrich succeeds in kidnapping her. Again I think enjoyment of the Winterfell story was pretty evenly divided overall and I'm relieved that they don't consider Sansa a sacred cow.

At the end of Feast she is still rather naive and trusting and following LF's cues and advice. As far as I can tell and with two books left and the focus shifting to the North and the Others, I don't see how GRRM can believably transition her from where she is now to some expert player. I do think that she will maybe end up North along with LF at some point and that D and D just super accelerated that storyline just like they did with Tyrion meeting Dany. And to do this, they swapped Jeyne Poole with Sansa.

I think LF is the only one she really does trust. I think she see's him as the ultimate protector, he can survive and thrive and outmanuever Cersei, Tywin and the rest of the Kings Landing set, he can bring the Vale to heel. In all honesty, if I weren't privy to the entire ASOIAF world, I'd think LF was the best bet too.

Not really. Being forced to walk naked through a crowd of people while they taunt and throw things at you is torture. It's what American soldiers did to prisoners in Abu Ghraib. Force them to strip and take pictures. It's a form of humiliation that mentally fucks you up. Add to that the fact that Cersei was scared of getting raped by the crowd. So, yeah, not temporary. It will be something that stays with her for the rest of her life.

I thought the Faith Militant was there to make sure she wasn't killed, that's why they escorted her to the Red Keep and kept beating people when they got to close. I just feel like Ned, Robb and Catelyn would have jumped at the chance for a "Walk" as opposed to the endings they met. So would Book!Universe Lady Falyse, Senelle and the other poor unfortunates she sends to Qyburn in the books. I've often tried so hard to feel for Cersei in these circumstances, maybe book Cersei just sits with me too deeply, but I can't. The show white washed her but Book!Cersei is still how I think of her. Her telling Jaimie to cut off Arya's hand, her having those illegitmate children of Roberts slaughtered throughout Kings Landing. It all culminates in a cry me a river type of feeling where Cersei is concerned. The people of Kings Landing have every right to hate her.

It's why I'm ultimately indifferent to the Fate of Tommen and Myrcella. How many other young lives have been destroyed or irrevocably shattered due to House Lannister's inner sense of divine right. People like Ellaria or (in the books) The Sand Snakes, don't see children, they just see Lannisters. They've hurt so many people even the "Great" Jon Snow revels in the idea of Tommen getting in over his head with the Iron Bank and suffering for it.

benteen · June 18, 2015

I agree it's a classic case of a historical double standard that the woman gets punished worse than the man. That's a big reason.

Also, I would argue that it's like nowadays where the government (or in this case the Faith) make a deal with the smaller fish to get the bigger one. Lancel was the "assassin" but Cersei was the master mind. Lancel is a knight and a Lannister but Cersei is the Queen Mother and defacto ruler of Westeros. That's who the High Septon wants to bring low. We also saw this when they utilzed the testimony of a "sinner" like Olyvar, a lowly squire/whore to use against Ser Loras, who on this show is the heir to Highgarden. And of course, Margaerey, the current Queen of Westeros.

Edited June 18, 2015 by benteen

Cheshrkat · June 18, 2015

To be fair, I have some of the same problems with the books where the good guys continue to have the shittiest luck ever while the bad guys skate by A-OK. Unluckily for Ned, Robert chooses that exact time to get drunk and go hunting, but Tyrion never thinks to let anyone know that Littlefinger was the one who framed him with the dagger. GRRM stacks the deck against the good guys, making it very hard for them to win, which is why I find claims that the book is so 'realistic' to be rather hilarious. In the real world, both good guys and bad guys win. In GRRM's world only the bad guys win.

I can't take credit for it but I read a post somewhere else that perfectly summed it up for me. In the books, GRRM doesn't cheat so that the good guys win. But in the show, as they are cutting more and more in the adaptation, D&D are cheating so that the bad guys win. Ramsay's attack with 20 good men decimating Stannis' army was just stupid. Littlefinger's ability to transport through space and time so that he can play all sides is another example. Sansa being held captive in the rape tower is another example of a bad guy "win" that doesn't occur in the books, but D&D made it so, for reasons that made very little sense and with no discernible growth for the Sansa character.

Even in Mereen, having the Sons of the Harpy killing Barristan was a cheat because it was done just to clear the way for Tyrion to become her Westeros advisor, whereas while Barristan will likely die in the books, it will be in the battle. In the books, Jon Snow's death wasn't really a win for the bad guys - Bowen Marsh had tears in his eyes - it was something that was at least partially understandable in the context of Jon's decision to march on Winterfell with the Wildlings after he receives the pink letter. But on the show, we'll just have Alliser Thorne (set up as a bit of a bad guy) and a bunch of unknowns stab him because he let the Wildlings through. Loras is under attack for being gay, and not wounded as he is bravely fighting - another cheat designed to take down one of the good guys in the book. The outcome may be the same (Loras out of commission) but I still think it's a cheat because they had to have his character be stupidly reckless about his extracurricular activities with someone who he should have known was a Littlefinger spy, whereas in the books he is still grieving for Renly.

I think the saddest part for me is that these cheats shortchange a lot of the complexity of characters' motivations in the books, and just serve to set up one shock the audience moment after another.

mac123x · June 18, 2015

Lencel got off easy (no pun intended). Henry VIII had Anee Boleyn's and Katherine Howard's alleged lovers executed. I think Lancel escaped serious punishment because he became a fanatical devotee of the High Sparrow. And I agree with the above poster that Olyvar basically got a plea-bargain; lenient sentence in exchange for testimony against a bigger fish. Though at this point we don't really know what happened to him; I assumed that Littlefinger turned him over to Olenna after their conversation, and that she would "persuade" him to recant, thus freeing Marge and Loras. But LF and Olenna just vanished. Next season I guess

proserpina65 · June 18, 2015

I thought the Faith Militant was there to make sure she wasn't killed, that's why they escorted her to the Red Keep and kept beating people when they got to close. I just feel like Ned, Robb and Catelyn would have jumped at the chance for a "Walk" as opposed to the endings they met. So would Book!Universe Lady Falyse, Senelle and the other poor unfortunates she sends to Qyburn in the books. I've often tried so hard to feel for Cersei in these circumstances, maybe book Cersei just sits with me too deeply, but I can't. The show white washed her but Book!Cersei is still how I think of her. Her telling Jaimie to cut off Arya's hand, her having those illegitmate children of Roberts slaughtered throughout Kings Landing. It all culminates in a cry me a river type of feeling where Cersei is concerned. The people of Kings Landing have every right to hate her.

And this is Cersei we're talking about. I highly doubt the experience changes her in the least, other than make her more determined to get revenge on those she feels have wronged her.

Ramsay's attack with 20 good men decimating Stannis' army was just stupid.

Ramsay's plan with 20 men was just infiltrating Stannis' camp and destroying supplies, siege engines and killing/stealing horses. They did not attack or decimate the army itself; that was the Bolton army. I'm no fan of Ramsay, but this is overexaggerating what actually happened on the show.

Edited June 18, 2015 by proserpina65

MarySNJ · June 18, 2015

Nope. Nobody can convince me there was any other reason to get a big, "shocking," moment mid-season with the rape scene. There was zero character development for Sansa, or even Theon, beyond that and she spent the rest of the season locked in a room. I'd give it more credit if there was a battle for Winterfell, you get some suspense out of Sansa being trapped between two armies, but obviously we all know how that went. I don't think Sansa ever acknowledges the possibility of ending up with Stannis, Stannis never finds out about Sansa being married to Ramsay and he never shares a scene with the Boltons. For all extensive purposes, they were two storylines that had nothing to do with each other even if they took place in the same area.

Not to mention Cogman's "It was a choice because she's not the same little girl anymore." But she spends half the season suffering pain from a psycho and spends the rest of it trying to escape. Now she's on the run. That's literally her entire series arc up to this point. And then you consider that Littlefinger is on his way to the North with a large army to join up with the Boltons so he could conceivably give her some protection. So Sansa for all extensive purposes has made her situation more dangerous. It's an idiotic storyline.

I don't remember Cogman's exact words but I do remember being unimpressed with the reasoning they came up with for Sansa's story arc this season. There was nothing empowering about it unless one considers making the decision to jump off a wall rather than remain a captive of her psychopath husband "empowering".

And since you mentioned the army of the Vale, I think Baelish is full of ish. He's going to bend whichever way the wind blows that suits his chaos-ladder-building goals. and I don't think the Vale armies will be heading North the Winterfell as winter falls. I think he told Sansa that to ease her mind a bit because she wasn't completely buying his scheme. Don't forget that uncle Petyr sold out Sansa's whereabouts to Cersei when he didn't have to.

I do think Petyr walked into a bigger mess in KL than even he expected, and will try to figure out how to use it to his advantage, but if I had to guess, I'd say he wrote Sansa off as a personal loss when he decided to sell her out. After all, she's another man's wife now and no way was Ramsay going to leave her a virgin until she was ready the way Tyrion did. The only way Petyr would ever get to have Sansa back is if Ramsay's dead, and I don't see him going to war against the Boltons just so he can hopefully bump off a romantic rival and make a widow of Sansa.

Edited to add, what i mean to say is I agree that Sansa's is an idiotic storyline.

Edited June 18, 2015 by MarySNJ

J----av · June 18, 2015

I don't remember Cogman's exact words but I do remember being unimpressed with the reasoning they came up with for Sansa's story arc this season. There was nothing empowering about it unless one considers making the decision to jump off a wall rather than remain a captive of her psychopath husband "empowering".

And since you mentioned the army of the Vale, I think Baelish is full of ish. He's going to bend whichever way the wind blows that suits his chaos-ladder-building goals. and I don't think the Vale armies will be heading North the Winterfell as winter falls. I think he told Sansa that to ease her mind a bit because she wasn't completely buying his scheme. Don't forget that uncle Petyr sold out Sansa's whereabouts to Cersei when he didn't have to.

I do think Petyr walked into a bigger mess in KL than even he expected, and will try to figure out how to use it to his advantage, but if I had to guess, I'd say he wrote Sansa off as a personal loss when he decided to sell her out. After all, she's another man's wife now and no way was Ramsay going to leave her a virgin until she was ready the way Tyrion did. The only way Petyr would ever get to have Sansa back is if Ramsay's dead, and I don't see him going to war against the Boltons just so he can hopefully bump off a romantic rival and make a widow of Sansa.

Edited to add, what i mean to say is I agree that Sansa's is an idiotic storyline.

When you really look at it, there is nothing really empowering about what book Sansa is doing either. She is just LFs puppet. I think people just have the wrong idea of what Sansa is and what she will become. I doubt she will ever become a real player in the game

benteen · June 18, 2015

On a subject discussed earlier, I think Jon was 100% right to throw in with Stannis. Not just because they owed Stannis for saving them from the Wildling amry but because Stannis was the one king who gave a shit about the Wall. Stannis winning the War of Five Kings means having a king that's a committed ally to the Night's Watch. A king who is likely to send better fighters and resources to the NW. Giving Stannis the Nightfort in the book was a brilliant move because that meant the Crown had a presence there and the Watch had an ally to help fight the White Walkers. A Stannis victory means the Night's Watch becomes relevent once again in the kingdom of Westeros.

It's a total high risk, high reward situation. If Stannis is defeated, they most likely will lose favor with the Crown. Most likely with the Boltons too although a White Walker invasion would concern them too. But considering that the Crown did jack squat for the Watch other than occassionally emptyijng their dungeon and sending morons like Janos Slynt over, it's not like things would change all that much if Stannis loses.

SeanC · June 19, 2015

And since you mentioned the army of the Vale, I think Baelish is full of ish. He's going to bend whichever way the wind blows that suits his chaos-ladder-building goals. and I don't think the Vale armies will be heading North the Winterfell as winter falls. I think he told Sansa that to ease her mind a bit because she wasn't completely buying his scheme. Don't forget that uncle Petyr sold out Sansa's whereabouts to Cersei when he didn't have to.

I do think Petyr walked into a bigger mess in KL than even he expected, and will try to figure out how to use it to his advantage, but if I had to guess, I'd say he wrote Sansa off as a personal loss when he decided to sell her out. After all, she's another man's wife now and no way was Ramsay going to leave her a virgin until she was ready the way Tyrion did. The only way Petyr would ever get to have Sansa back is if Ramsay's dead, and I don't see him going to war against the Boltons just so he can hopefully bump off a romantic rival and make a widow of Sansa.

You're mixing two different stories here.

Littlefinger didn't say anything about bringing the Vale armies north to Sansa in the show; he told that to Cersei (which is why he told her where Sansa was). Taking the Vale armies north is clearly his plan in the show, as that's the one tangible thing he acquired in King's Landing.

Littlefinger doesn't care whether Sansa is a virgin or not. He wrote off her virginity when he instigated her marriage to Tyrion (she kept it anyway, but Baelish couldn't have predicted that).

When you really look at it, there is nothing really empowering about what book Sansa is doing either. She is just LFs puppet. I think people just have the wrong idea of what Sansa is and what she will become. I doubt she will ever become a real player in the game

Sansa in the books is on a training arc. She hasn't yet developed the desire/motivation to strike out on her own yet. She's "empowered" in the books because she's developing skills and gaining confidence in herself. The show version, on the other hand, was suddenly shoved way ahead of the book version in episode 408 (with basically no buildup), and placed in a far more secure position than the book version was in, only to have all of that wiped out in the first episode of season five, and it only got worse from there. It would be one thing if she didn't have her own agenda (even though season four said she did), but she's not learning anything either; not once does she make use of any gameplaying skills.

anamika · June 19, 2015

I just feel like Ned, Robb and Catelyn would have jumped at the chance for a "Walk" as opposed to the endings they met. So would Book!Universe Lady Falyse, Senelle and the other poor unfortunates she sends to Qyburn in the books. I've often tried so hard to feel for Cersei in these circumstances, maybe book Cersei just sits with me too deeply, but I can't. The show white washed her but Book!Cersei is still how I think of her. Her telling Jaimie to cut off Arya's hand, her having those illegitmate children of Roberts slaughtered throughout Kings Landing. It all culminates in a cry me a river type of feeling where Cersei is concerned. The people of Kings Landing have every right to hate her.

I am just saying that I disliked that Cersei's punishment was sexual in nature and literal slut shaming while Jaime who took an oath to never sleep with anyone and comitted adultery and incest did not suffer the same fate. Cersei is not a good person by any means and she deserves everything thats coming to her. I think that the show did a better job of portraying her while I felt that GRRM short changed her character in the books.

Just because Jaime got an alleged 'Redemption arc' (I don't see anything redeeming in him even after book 5) does not lessen his previous crimes any. Ned, Robb and Catelyn wold have jumped at the chance to have their hand chopped off as opposed to the end they met. I am sure Bran would rather be without a hand than be paralyzed from the waist down. In many ways I consider Jaime to be worse than Cersei considering that he was Kings guard and took an oath. And if Cersei ordered Arya's hand cut off, Jaime was ready to do it. He was out there hunting for Arya, ready to murder her after the events at the Trident.

And despite GRRM trying very hard to make Cersei this one dimensional baddie, I find myself empathizing more with her than Jaime, because as a woman her circumstances were harder. Jaime was the eldest, golden boy, heir to Tywin Lannister with all the priveleges that come with it. Not so with Cersei who had to endure marital rape and abuse from her husband and had to make do in a man's world.

Just because Jaime lost a hand, saved Brienne from a bear and hanged a few outlaws does not make him any less deserving of punishment. He send Brienne out to do his work (Finding Sansa), he is still in the Riverlands threatening to throws babies off trebuchets and did nothing for poor Jeyne Poole as she was being hauled off to marry Ramsay Bolton. The best part of AFfC was the Blackfish rightly calling him out as a lying fraud. I really want him to get justice at the end of Lady Stoneheart's rope, but knowing GRRM's penchant for letting the bad guys get away with comitting the worst atrocities, he won't.

And if Brienne helps him get away, I will be as disgusted with her as I am with Jaime.

Edited June 19, 2015 by anamika

MarySNJ · June 19, 2015

You're mixing two different stories here.

Littlefinger didn't say anything about bringing the Vale armies north to Sansa in the show; he told that to Cersei (which is why he told her where Sansa was). Taking the Vale armies north is clearly his plan in the show, as that's the one tangible thing he acquired in King's Landing.

Littlefinger doesn't care whether Sansa is a virgin or not. He wrote off her virginity when he instigated her marriage to Tyrion (she kept it anyway, but Baelish couldn't have predicted that).

Sansa in the books is on a training arc. She hasn't yet developed the desire/motivation to strike out on her own yet. She's "empowered" in the books because she's developing skills and gaining confidence in herself. The show version, on the other hand, was suddenly shoved way ahead of the book version in episode 408 (with basically no buildup), and placed in a far more secure position than the book version was in, only to have all of that wiped out in the first episode of season five, and it only got worse from there. It would be one thing if she didn't have her own agenda (even though season four said she did), but she's not learning anything either; not once does she make use of any gameplaying skills.

I don't think Petyr personally cares if Sansa's a virgin, but the fact that she was - even after being married to Tyrion, is what he used as evidence that it was not a legitimate marriage so that he could arrange Sansa's marriage to Ramsay. He'd have to find another way to extricate Sansa from her marriage to Ramsay, because there would be no question that the marriage was "valid" at least in that regard.

As for the Vale armies, I'll believe it when I see it. Petyr may be Lord Protector but he's not the Warden of the East and he's not Lord Arryn. I'm not seeing what's in it for the Vale Lords to call their banners to take an army North.

I do agree with you that Sansa is more empowered in the books. She's still learning. She seemed to be doing the same on the TV series until she ended up a prisoner of her own husband. I thought she was going to take back her home, but she ended up having to flee.

Edited June 19, 2015 by MarySNJ

benteen · June 19, 2015

I am just saying that I disliked that Cersei's punishment was sexual in nature and literal slut shaming while Jaime who took an oath to never sleep with anyone and comitted adultery and incest did not suffer the same fate. Cersei is not a good person by any means and she deserves everything thats coming to her. I think that the show did a better job of portraying her while I felt that GRRM short changed her character in the books.

Just because Jaime got an alleged 'Redemption arc' (I don't see anything redeeming in him even after book 5) does not lessen his previous crimes any. Ned, Robb and Catelyn wold have jumped at the chance to have their hand chopped off as opposed to the end they met. I am sure Bran would rather be without a hand than be paralyzed from the waist down. In many ways I consider Jaime to be worse than Cersei considering that he was Kings guard and took an oath. And if Cersei ordered Arya's hand cut off, Jaime was ready to do it. He was out there hunting for Arya, ready to murder her after the events at the Trident.

And despite GRRM trying very hard to make Cersei this one dimensional baddie, I find myself empathizing more with her than Jaime, because as a woman her circumstances were harder. Jaime was the eldest, golden boy, heir to Tywin Lannister with all the priveleges that come with it. Not so with Cersei who had to endure marital rape and abuse from her husband and had to make do in a man's world.

Just because Jaime lost a hand, saved Brienne from a bear and hanged a few outlaws does not make him any less deserving of punishment. He send Brienne out to do his work (Finding Sansa), he is still in the Riverlands threatening to throws babies off trebuchets and did nothing for poor Jeyne Poole as she was being hauled off to marry Ramsay Bolton. The best part of AFfC was the Blackfish rightly calling him out as a lying fraud. I really want him to get justice at the end of Lady Stoneheart's rope, but knowing GRRM's penchant for letting the bad guys get away with comitting the worst atrocities, he won't.

And if Brienne helps him get away, I will be as disgusted with her as I am with Jaime.

I sympathize with Jaime more but I agree that he has it easier in society because he's a man and Cersei was pretty much under the control of her father and husband. She didn't have a choice in those matters while Jaime did and made his own decisions.

Hecate7 · June 19, 2015

When you really look at it, there is nothing really empowering about what book Sansa is doing either. She is just LFs puppet. I think people just have the wrong idea of what Sansa is and what she will become. I doubt she will ever become a real player in the game

I think she will, but I don't think that's what these scenes of rape and psychological torture are about. These are simply about what happens to a woman in these situations. I recall some wildly unrealistic and judgey assumptions about what Sansa could expect from men as a result of her beauty and her privileged birth, I guess from people who don't know many bullies or something. I think it was important to establish what limitations Sansa is working with, socially and politically, before having her move on. The worst men are like Ramsey. The average man is more like Theon--mean to the lower class women he beds, entitled, wanting monogamy and free services from Roz just because he likes her, but not a sadist. A few are better, like Tyrion and Ned Stark, and then even better are the Jon Snows and Sam Tarlys of the world. But Sansa probably won't ever even meet a Sam, much less a Jon Snow.

Hecate7 · June 19, 2015

I am just saying that I disliked that Cersei's punishment was sexual in nature and literal slut shaming while Jaime who took an oath to never sleep with anyone and comitted adultery and incest did not suffer the same fate. Cersei is not a good person by any means and she deserves everything thats coming to her. I think that the show did a better job of portraying her while I felt that GRRM short changed her character in the books.

But the crime Cersei confessed to was sexual in nature, and so of course the punishment is. She confessed to adultery with a cousin, and that's what she was punished for. If she's convicted of regicide or any of her other crimes, I think the punishment will be less sexual in nature, although since adultery is still involved it might not be. I might add that she was hoping to watch Margaery endure that sort of punishment, and Loras suffer worse, when neither one of them have hurt her at all, and both in fact have helped her a great deal.

As for comparing her to Jaime, Jaime has never been unfaithful to Cersei. He's never even considered it. He gave up his inheritance, his possibility of a career in politics or a happy marriage and family, in order to remain with Cersei. She literally screwed him out of his birthright, and he has never once given it a single thought.

For all the killing Jaime's done, not one bit of it was for himself. It was all for Cersei. The same is not true of Cersei. She has done a lot of killing just for her own pleasure, and even when she's doing it for one of the kids, like killing all the dwarves for Joffrey or killing Margaery and Loras for Tommen, she's self serving and wrong. The person she's hurt most with her latest gambit is Tommen. She is literally killing him by taking away his beloved wife and making enemies of her family.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Hecate7

Hecate7 · June 19, 2015

I'm actually really glad it didn't work because I didn't want there to be any justification for that horrible, horrible act. I was VERY satisfied with this ending - I fail to see how it could match up with the books, but I guess we have to wait until next year to discover that.

The thing with the shadow baby was real magic, but I don't think she burned someone with king's blood to make that happen. Furthermore, the show has never addressed the blood magic with the leaches didn't account for Balon Greyjoy's death (though he does die in the books) and how its not that difficult for men to die in war and intrigue and how the whole damn thing could have been coincidence.

I think burning Shireen didn't work because in the end, the Baratheons are no more king's blood than any other great house in Westerous. My theory is that logically speaking only a Targ has a right to the Iron Throne and that's the only king's blood that counts OR there is king's blood all over the place because before the Targs came the Starks were kings, the Greyjoys were kings, the Martells were kings, and so on.....

Or maybe her blonde hair DID have plot significance, and Stannis himself lacks King's blood.

anamika · June 19, 2015

As for comparing her to Jaime, Jaime has never been unfaithful to Cersei. He's never even considered it. He gave up his inheritance, his possibility of a career in politics or a happy marriage and family, in order to remain with Cersei. She literally screwed him out of his birthright, and he has never once given it a single thought.

For all the killing Jaime's done, not one bit of it was for himself. It was all for Cersei. The same is not true of Cersei. She has done a lot of killing just for her own pleasure, and even when she's doing it for one of the kids, like killing all the dwarves for Joffrey or killing Margaery and Loras for Tommen, she's self serving and wrong. The person she's hurt most with her latest gambit is Tommen. She is literally killing him by taking away his beloved wife and making enemies of her family.

Come on! Let's stop following Jaime's lead and not blame Cersei for everything shall we? Jaime has a brain and can think for himself. If Cersei screwed up his birth right, who the hell asked Jaime to think with his dick? He could have refused her, right? He could have said no. He is every bit as guilty as she is. This 'The Woman is to blame for all the Man's actions' stuff annoys the hell out of me. It takes two to tango and all that.

So Jaime pushed Bran out of the window because Cersei asked him to? He is every bit a Lannister as Cersei. He took part in the war against Robb to consolidate his bastards on the throne. He was responsible for the WOT5K and all that death and suffering in the Riverlands.

Is Jaime being faithful to Cersei supposed to be a good thing? He was sleeping with the King's wife. Committing adultery. Breaking his oath as KG and attempted to kill a child to cover up his adulterous actions.

And as soon as he learned about Cersei's infidelity, he dropped her like a hot potato. His own sister, asking for his help. And refuses because she cheated on him. Not much love there then.

But the crime Cersei confessed to was sexual in nature, and so of course the punishment is. She confessed to adultery with a cousin, and that's what she was punished for. If she's convicted of regicide or any of her other crimes, I think the punishment will be less sexual in nature, although since adultery is still involved it might not be. I might add that she was hoping to watch Margaery endure that sort of punishment, and Loras suffer worse, when neither one of them have hurt her at all, and both in fact have helped her a great deal.

I don't deny that GRRM wrote it such that Cersei gets punished for adultery which leads to her being literally slut shamed. I just dislike that this was the route he took with Cersei where she confesses to crimes that are sexual in nature and gets sexually punished while Jaime, who was equally guilty of crimes of a sexual nature, got a free pass on this. Why should the woman be the one to go through that. I don't know. That whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth. As much as I think Cersei is a bad person, I think a more just punishment would be her losing her children (Like Cat) or losing the people she took for granted (Like Jaime), dying alone and powerless etc. I am not a fan of punishments with sexist/misogynistic tones.

Edited June 19, 2015 by anamika

Avaleigh · June 19, 2015

I think she will, but I don't think that's what these scenes of rape and psychological torture are about. These are simply about what happens to a woman in these situations. I recall some wildly unrealistic and judgey assumptions about what Sansa could expect from men as a result of her beauty and her privileged birth, I guess from people who don't know many bullies or something. I think it was important to establish what limitations Sansa is working with, socially and politically, before having her move on. The worst men are like Ramsey. The average man is more like Theon--mean to the lower class women he beds, entitled, wanting monogamy and free services from Roz just because he likes her, but not a sadist. A few are better, like Tyrion and Ned Stark, and then even better are the Jon Snows and Sam Tarlys of the world. But Sansa probably won't ever even meet a Sam, much less a Jon Snow.

I have my issues with Ned but as far as women are concerned surely he's on the level as both Sam and Jon.

I think Sansa will meet Jon again and that he is growing into and becoming everything she has always wanted and everything that she has also more recently discovered that she wants.

I basically think that Jon is both the strong, good, and honorable man that Ned said he wanted for Sansa in addition to being the magical prince Sansa always dreamed she would end up with.

To me the quote about Sansa not thinking these heroes exist only for Jon to prove that they do in later books is hugely significant and it was the main thing that made me reconsider the idea of Jon/Sansa being the end game.

As for Jaime's killing being all about Cersei, I don't know if that's necessarily true. I don't think he killed Aerys for her. Then I consider things like when Cersei thinks to herself about how Jaime feels like he isn't really alive unless he's in bed or in battle. While I disagree with the showrunners over the idea that Jaime is this "monster who loves killing" I did get the impression that he gets a thrill from fighting so violence for him IMO isn't exclusively tied into his feelings for Cersei.

Regarding Cersei not being faithful to Jaime--

I feel like Cersei basically gets no credit for essentially being faithful to Jaime for some, what, fifteen years or so? For all that Cersei is called a whore for Lancel and the Kettleblacks I thinks it's worth noting that she didn't stray from Jaime until shit hit the fan and even then it was with a Jaime stand in. This obviously wouldn't make Jaime feel better about her cheating but as far as the idea that Jaime was the only one to show proof of his intense love of his twin for all the years of their relationship, I'm not sure that I agree. They both risked their lives to continue their affair.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Avaleigh

Advance35 · June 19, 2015

When you really look at it, there is nothing really empowering about what book Sansa is doing either. She is just LFs puppet. I think people just have the wrong idea of what Sansa is and what she will become. I doubt she will ever become a real player in the game

I think she'll be better than Ned or Cat ever were but I don't think she'll ever be a match for the likes of Varys, Baelish or Olenna Tyrell. She'll probably reach the level of politcally shrewd, which is the impression I got of her Grandfather Hoster Tully. He seemed like a very strategic man.

And despite GRRM trying very hard to make Cersei this one dimensional baddie, I find myself empathizing more with her than Jaime, because as a woman her circumstances were harder. Jaime was the eldest, golden boy, heir to Tywin Lannister with all the priveleges that come with it. Not so with Cersei who had to endure marital rape and abuse from her husband and had to make do in a man's world.

I was never even able to feel for her in that regard because I felt like she was hardly the only woman to face those things and the others didn't become who she is. Even before she ever met Robert she was a murderer. Robert was a piece of work but Cersei was a monster in my eyes. Her threatening to have Mya Stone murdered if Robert brought her to Kings Landing, her actually having the bastards she could find murdered after Robert died. I felt she more than held her own in her feud with Robert. I felt Cersei had dimension, it's just that all of them were horrible.

For the record I've never bought into Jaimie as some sort of hero or even redeemed. I think he AND Cersei are responsible for a succession war that has cost countless lives. And you know GRRM isn't going to let Jaimie get his just deserts by Lady Stoneheart, there will be hijinks which is why it didn't bother me in the least that she was omitted from the show.

BlackberryJam · June 19, 2015

I have my issues with Ned but as far as women are concerned surely he's on the level as both Sam and Jon.

Can't agree here. He either cheated on his wife and them shamed her by bringing his bastard child into their home for her to raise or lied to his wife about cheating on her and then bringing what she thought was his bastard child into the home for her to raise.

Ned's shitty to women.

Edited June 19, 2015 by BlackberryJam

benteen · June 19, 2015

I disagree about Ned. The Jon Snow situation is a bit of a mess I grant you but he treated Catelyn well and they both grew to love each other. It might have been Ned's older brother that Catelyn wanted but it was Ned that she ended up loving and I don't believe she would have traded that.

About Jaime living for battle and Cersei, I would agree with that. Not a monster who loves killing but he does love fighting, which goes along with being a knight. Agreed though that Jaime made his own decisions. He gave up his inheritance (which never seemed to bother him), he joined the Kingsguard and he threw Bran out the window for his own choice. His affair with Cersei and fathering three children with her is what has caused this terrible succession war. His killing of Aerys was a noble action that so-called honorable men like Barristan Selmy, Arthur Dayne and the other members of the Kingsguard refused to even consider. He was bothered by the actions of the Mad King. That doesn't excuse his past actions but I think he's finally taking actions to improve himself.

anamika · June 19, 2015

I think Sansa will meet Jon again and that he is growing into and becoming everything she has always wanted and everything that she has also more recently discovered that she wants.

I basically think that Jon is both the strong, good, and honorable man that Ned said he wanted for Sansa in addition to being the magical prince Sansa always dreamed she would end up with.

To me the quote about Sansa not thinking these heroes exist only for Jon to prove that they do books later is hugely significant and it was the main thing that made me reconsider the idea of Jon/Sansa being the end game.

I don't think Sansa/Jon will happen and am doubtful that they will even meet in the books. And maybe Jon is the man that Sansa dreamed off, but I doubt Jon would go for Sansa. He is more into the pro-active, take charge girls like Ygritte and Val. And Arya if the original book outline is right.

Though I agree Jon is the least misogynistic character in the books. He is actually pretty forward thinking for Westeros. From giving needle to Arya to treating women as equals and even being friends with them. I really liked his friendship with Alys KarStark.

Can't agree here. He either cheated on his wife and them shamed her by bringing his bastard child into their home for her to raise or lied to his wife about cheating on her and then bringing what she thought was his bastard child into the home for her to raise.

If it was the latter he really did not have much of a choice. And no one forced Catelyn to raise Ned's bastard and she did not raise him either. She basically ignored Jon the entire time he was there and when Ned left for KL, she demanded that Jon leave Winterfell as well. Which Ned agreed to.

I think she'll be better than Ned or Cat ever were but I don't think she'll ever be a match for the likes of Varys, Baelish or Olenna Tyrell. She'll probably reach the level of politcally shrewd, which is the impression I got of her Grandfather Hoster Tully. He seemed like a very strategic man.

I just don't see what the point is of her becoming some kind of average player. Other characters are already playing the game. Dany is in Essos playing the game with slavers and dealing with the likes of the Green Grace and the Shavepate. Soon Tyrion will be joining her. Jon is playing the game on the wall by making alliances between the North and the Wildlings, helping Stannis and dealing with the KarStarks. Bran is going to be able to access all sorts of information through the Weirnet and people like Margaery and Arianne are actively involved in some sort of political maneuvering. What is Sansa going to do?

This is why I don't think she is all that important to the end game or that she will become some player of the game. She may have a hand in taking down LF because her story is so intertwined with his but I don't see her surviving the series.

Edited June 19, 2015 by anamika

nksarmi · June 19, 2015

Can't agree here. He either cheated on his wife and them shamed her by bringing his bastard child into their home for her to raise or lied to his wife about cheating on her and then bringing what she thought was his bastard child into the home for her to raise.

Ned's shitty to women.

If you set this in a time when Robert B is probably the average man, Ned is practically a saint!

If Ned made an oath to his dying sister, I fully accept that he would lie to Cat to keep that oath. And frankly, though he would never say a bad word about Cat, given what WE saw of her, he would have been a moron to bring her in on that secret. The woman is rash and seemed likely to do fool-hearty things. Frankly, if we are right and R+L=J and Cat knew it, I think we could flip a coin to figure out if she would be more likely to a) make him known to the realm and try to crown him the instant Ned was dead or b) try to trade him for the safe return of Sansa and Ayra!

Skeeter22 · June 19, 2015

I think Ned still lying to Cat about Jon after years of marriage is really more a function of the plot than character. Considering their relationship by the start of the novels, it makes no sense that he would still be lying to her. I think the idea that he maintains the lie because Cat would be too nice to Jon and Robert would figure it out is just fans trying to explain away something GRRM doesn't want anyone to think about too much. GRRM didn't want to tip his hand so early on Jon's parentage, and he wanted Jon to be the poor, alienated bastard, so Ned kept lying to Cat. I think it's just clumsy writing that had unintended consequences.

anamika · June 19, 2015

I think Ned still lying to Cat about Jon after years of marriage is really more a function of the plot than character. Considering their relationship by the start of the novels, it makes no sense that he would still be lying to her. I think the idea that he maintains the lie because Cat would be too nice to Jon and Robert would figure it out is just fans trying to explain away something GRRM doesn't want anyone to think about too much. GRRM didn't want to tip his hand so early on Jon's parentage, and he wanted Jon to be the poor, alienated bastard, so Ned kept lying to Cat. I think it's just clumsy writing that had unintended consequences.

Not really. In fact this was touched upon a few times in Ned's POV where he ponders over what some one would do to save their children. What he would do, what Cat would do. If it came to a choice between saving her own children or handing over Jon to the enemies, Cat would not have hesitated to pick the latter. As we saw she was totally devoted to her kids. Ned would not only be burdening Cat with this information, but it was too risky to entrust information about Jon's parentage to Cat.

Edited June 19, 2015 by anamika

Advance35 · June 19, 2015

I just don't see what the point is of her becoming some kind of average player. Other characters are already playing the game. Dany is in Essos playing the game with slavers and dealing with the likes of the Green Grace and the Shavepate. Soon Tyrion will be joining her. Jon is playing the game on the wall by making alliances between the North and the Wildlings, helping Stannis and dealing with the KarStarks. Bran is going to be able to access all sorts of information through the Weirnet and people like Margaery and Arianne are actively involved in some sort of political maneuvering. What is Sansa going to do?

This is why I don't think she is all that important to the end game or that she will become some player of the game. She may have a hand in taking down LF because her story is so intertwined with his but I don't see her surviving the series.

I always felt that one of the reasons things went so bad for House Stark is because they were so out of touch with the politics of "The Realm." They had little to know clue who was doing what, who was out to get who and etc. In the books, we are shown that House Tyrell and House Martell each have their own spies in Kings Landing and that they keep track of the major movers and shakers. I think Margaery and Arianne will be dead before the end of the series so IF Sansa survives I don't see her having to contend with either in terms of playing "The Game." I just feel like Sansa will be The Answer to the North maintaining a presence in the Capital (which could be completely wrong since the show moved the character as far from the Capital as it could get her, though it does support my theory that Sansa won't end up Wardness of the North, her fate is in the South I feel) making sure Northern interest are represented.

I can't say exactly how and I can't say she'll LIVE through her importance but I do think Sansa has an important role to play. That's the impression I've been given. The showrunners (I know how many around here feel about them) say they view Sansa as an important character, 2nd to very few. That makes me think that whatever her ultimate fate is, it matters to the overall story. Though I could be wrong.

I think Sansa will meet Jon again and that he is growing into and becoming everything she has always wanted and everything that she has also more recently discovered that she wants.

I basically think that Jon is both the strong, good, and honorable man that Ned said he wanted for Sansa in addition to being the magical prince Sansa always dreamed she would end up with.

To me the quote about Sansa not thinking these heroes exist only for Jon to prove that they do books later is hugely significant and it was the main thing that made me reconsider the idea of Jon/Sansa being the end game.

That's very interesting and something I've seen pointed out a surprising number of times. I noticed that incident or would that be Symmetry with Janos Slynt as well, and it was very striking. And I actually was surprised at how many people seem to be in favor of the pairing. IF Jon comes back from the dead, IF Sansa survives, interesting things tend to happen when Starks and Targaryens get together. Everyone has always said it would be Jon and Dany but Jon and Sansa would be quite the shock. Not Anti or Pro, I'd have to see how GRRM brought it about.

Matt K · June 19, 2015

I was thinking and perhaps the reason the show didn't include Stoneheart, besides being essentially pointless, was that they didn't want to have to waste time explaining why Kat came back wrong but Jon doesn't using the same ritual.

Happy Harpy · June 19, 2015

And maybe Jon is the man that Sansa dreamed off, but I doubt Jon would go for Sansa. He is more into the pro-active, take charge girls like Ygritte and Val. And Arya if the original book outline is right.

Yes! I see things this way, too. Not saying here that the "beta" girl type is bad; I simply don't think it's Jon's type.

Moreover, even if he's half Targaryen -so he could fall for a relative, I don't see Jon's Stark side falling for any woman he thought of as his sister all his life. I certainly hope anyway that the incest of the first version has been transferred to Jaime/Cersei and there won't be any between the original "Stark children".

benteen · June 19, 2015

I always felt that one of the reasons things went so bad for House Stark is because they were so out of touch with the politics of "The Realm." They had little to know clue who was doing what, who was out to get who and etc.   In the books, we are shown that House Tyrell and House Martell each have their own spies in Kings Landing and that they keep track of the major movers and shakers.   I think Margaery and Arianne will be dead before the end of the series so IF Sansa survives I don't see her having to contend with either in terms of playing "The Game." I just feel like Sansa will be The Answer to the North maintaining a presence in the Capital (which could be completely wrong since the show moved the character as far from the Capital as it could get her, though it does support my theory that Sansa won't end up Wardness of the North, her fate is in the South I feel) making sure Northern interest are represented.

I can't say exactly how and I can't say she'll LIVE through her importance but I do think Sansa has an important role to play.   That's the impression I've been given.   The showrunners (I know how many around here feel about them) say they view Sansa as an important character, 2nd to very few. That makes me think that whatever her ultimate fate is, it matters to the overall story.   Though I could be wrong.

That's very interesting and something I've seen pointed out a surprising number of times.   I noticed that incident or would that be Symmetry with Janos Slynt as well, and it was very striking.   And I actually was surprised at how many people seem to be in favor of the pairing.   IF Jon comes back from the dead, IF Sansa survives, interesting things tend to happen when Starks and Targaryens get together.   Everyone has always said it would be Jon and Dany but Jon and Sansa would be quite the shock.   Not Anti or Pro, I'd have to see how GRRM brought it about.

This. Ned hated the game but it would have been in the interests of the North to have their own people down in King's Landing. It's a shame Ned didn't leave some people there after Robert's Rebellion.

There's a fascinating bit on Lord Cregan Stark in A World of Ice and Fire...he was the only other Stark to serve as Hand of the King. His term was very short but he knew how to get business done. He left many Northerners in King's Landing although I don't think that went particularly well. But it didn't come back to bite the Starks in the ass then.

Edited June 19, 2015 by benteen

SeanC · June 19, 2015

I don't think Petyr personally cares if Sansa's a virgin, but the fact that she was - even after being married to Tyrion, is what he used as evidence that it was not a legitimate marriage so that he could arrange Sansa's marriage to Ramsay. He'd have to find another way to extricate Sansa from her marriage to Ramsay, because there would be no question that the marriage was "valid" at least in that regard.

As for the Vale armies, I'll believe it when I see it. Petyr may be Lord Protector but he's not the Warden of the East and he's not Lord Arryn. I'm not seeing what's in it for the Vale Lords to call their banners to take an army North.

He doesn't need to extricate her from her marriage to Ramsay. Ramsay will be killed when they invade the North.

In the show, Littlefinger is clearly in control of the Vale. The Vale lords are all his buddies. The invasion is happening; there's no reason to bring that up otherwise. And it's how they put Sansa and Littlefinger back into the same plot.

loki567 · June 19, 2015

I always felt that one of the reasons things went so bad for House Stark is because they were so out of touch with the politics of "The Realm." They had little to know clue who was doing what, who was out to get who and etc.   In the books, we are shown that House Tyrell and House Martell each have their own spies in Kings Landing and that they keep track of the major movers and shakers.   I think Margaery and Arianne will be dead before the end of the series so IF Sansa survives I don't see her having to contend with either in terms of playing "The Game." I just feel like Sansa will be The Answer to the North maintaining a presence in the Capital (which could be completely wrong since the show moved the character as far from the Capital as it could get her, though it does support my theory that Sansa won't end up Wardness of the North, her fate is in the South I feel) making sure Northern interest are represented.

I can't say exactly how and I can't say she'll LIVE through her importance but I do think Sansa has an important role to play.   That's the impression I've been given.   The showrunners (I know how many around here feel about them) say they view Sansa as an important character, 2nd to very few. That makes me think that whatever her ultimate fate is, it matters to the overall story.   Though I could be wrong.

That's very interesting and something I've seen pointed out a surprising number of times.   I noticed that incident or would that be Symmetry with Janos Slynt as well, and it was very striking.   And I actually was surprised at how many people seem to be in favor of the pairing.   IF Jon comes back from the dead, IF Sansa survives, interesting things tend to happen when Starks and Targaryens get together.   Everyone has always said it would be Jon and Dany but Jon and Sansa would be quite the shock.   Not Anti or Pro, I'd have to see how GRRM brought it about.

They better get Kit Harington some stilts.

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