Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Umbelina]

Cersei got off easy. 

[Avaleigh]

Right now I feel like Melisandre and Ramsay are the characters who are getting off on easy street. 

[Umbelina]

I kind of wonder about Melisandre walking away from Stannis.  We got nothing from her, not even a hint at her motivation.  At what point did she decide he wasn't AA?  Did she look into the fire and see him defeated after Shireen's burning?  Does she now doubt her Red God, or herself?  Did she see Jon being killed/resurrected as AA?  Was it all a scam from the beginning, and she needed Stannis to kill his own daughter to resurrect the real AA, Jon?

 

I mean, the hell? 

[Avaleigh]

I kind of wonder about Melisandre walking away from Stannis.  We got nothing from her, not even a hint at her motivation.  At what point did she decide he wasn't AA?  Did she look into the fire and see him defeated after Shireen's burning?  Does she now doubt her Red God, or herself?  Did she see Jon being killed/resurrected as AA?  Was it all a scam from the beginning, and she needed Stannis to kill his own daughter to resurrect the real AA, Jon?

 

I mean, the hell? 

I don't really get it either. 

 

She tries to cozy up to him in their tent after telling him that the Lord of Light is fulfilling his promises and he brushes her off because he's upset about Shireen. She seems upset that he's treating her coldly and she follows him and then hears about the fact that he's basically lost half of his men. Her face completely changes here like she isn't expecting this news and it's shortly after this that she apparently decides to abandon Stannis. 

 

For the first time ever she seems shaken and it's because she doesn't understand how she could have been so wrong. I don't think she feels guilt, I think she feels fear because she's been totally shaken when it comes to her abilities. 

 

I still want to know why she thinks she can just show up at Castle Black to hang out. 

[John Potts]

snowblossom2 I don't think Drogon is dying, just taking a nap after a long day

 

He's not dead, he's just pining for the volcanoes!

[MrWhyt]

There are several reasons Cersei comes across as so "wrong" in the show. One big reason is of course the way Benioff/Weiss are writing her, but the other big reason is that Lena Headey has never read a single word of the books, not even her own POV.

 

Makes sense, her job is to portray TV Cersei, not book Cersei.

[BlackberryJam]

Oh, Cersei deserved the walk. As someone pointed out, BOO FREAKING HOO, she walked down a street naked and had people throw a few things at her. I mean, these are the starving people that she denied food because she wanted to be a bitch to her daughter-in-law.

 

Poor widdle Cersei got her feets hurt. I mean, that's nothing to condoning her son's behavior of torturing women, trying to set up her brother to take a murder wrap and condoning the slaughter of all the dwarves in the kingdom.

 

As to Nikolaj, he's been pretty open that he kind of read the first few books, but the just started searching for the name Jaime in his Kindle edition.

 

His end of season interviews are all about how Jaime was trying to deal with guilt over Tywin and maintain the family, protect the family members. Nothing about how it was written as Jaime trying to get back in Cersei's good graces. In fact, I bet the scripts didn't say anything about Cersei at all.

[Umbelina]

There are several reasons Cersei comes across as so "wrong" in the show. One big reason is of course the way Benioff/Weiss are writing her, but the other big reason is that Lena Headey has never read a single word of the books, not even her own POV.

 

Makes sense, her job is to portray TV Cersei, not book Cersei.

Yes, all those stupid actresses and actors who shadow police officers because they are about to play a roll as one, or interview family members when they are about to have a roll as a real person, or read books about a time period when they got a job in a period film simply wasted their time.  Headly is so much smarter than them!  After all, they have a script!  Why bother to know more than that?

[MrWhyt]

Yes, all those stupid actresses and actors who shadow police officers because they are about to play a roll as one, or interview family members when they are about to have a roll as a real person, or read books about a time period when they got a job in a period film simply wasted their time.  Headly is so much smarter than them!  After all, they have a script!  Why bother to know more than that?

I never said they wasted their time or that they were stupid, they might find that it helps them to portray their characters, but not every actor does those things. Why let something from the books that may never be on screen or might be changed from the books alter your acting choices? Cersei isn't a real person, this is an adaptation of the books, not a recreation, she obviously thought it'd be better if she played the character as written by the TV writers not by the book's author..

[Dev F]

Makes sense, her job is to portray TV Cersei, not book Cersei.

 

And a magnificent performance it is, too, whether it maps exactly onto book!Cersei's portrayal or not.

 

I'm more than happy to judge the TV show harshly if it falls short of the source material, if it neglects some important nuance from the books that robs the story of meaning, etc. I think large portions of the finale fell down quite embarrassingly in those respects. But I don't agree with this notion that the show owes the books fidelity for fidelity's sake, as if pointing out that a character or storyline is different is all that's needed to demonstrate that it's not as good.

 

And, hey, maybe there's some important way that show!Cersei is inferior to book!Cersei. I rather doubt it, myself, but I'm willing to entertain the possibility. However, shouldn't it be incumbent on the show's critics to articulate that supposed inferiority so we can debate it on the merits? If all we're doing is complaining, "Look how different it is! It should be less different!" we're reducing the analysis of the text to mere scorekeeping.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Dev F

[CrashTextDummie]

It's one of the endearing qualities of both show and book that bad people do bad things to other bad people on occasion, not just to good guys. Cersei's walk of shame is horrible and the fact that she's a horrible person doesn't make it better. The people punishing her are religious fanatics and I don't think the show made any attempt to portray it as justified. I think they did a good job of portraying what a humiliating and soul crushing experience it is for Cersei, and I thought they also captured the spirit of the book well. I don't mind that the Tyrells faded away in the second half of the season, it was like that in the book as well (to my memory). As soon as Cersei was incarcerated, we lost our only PoV into the actual going-ons in King's Landing.

 

Having had some time to mull it over, I think what's staying with me the most about the season finale is a feeling of undelivered promise and squandered potential when it comes to the North and in particular the Battle for Winterfell. I was really, REALLY looking forward to that. It was famed strategist Stannis fresh off a victory over the wildlings marching against ruthless and cunning camp Bolton. I thought (moreso in the book, granted) that the victor was up in the air. The show added Brienne and Sansa to the mix (while leaving out Yara) and that made things more complex still, or so I thought. Well... They made two crucial mistakes in my opinion: a) they decided to play up Ramsay's sadism some more and then some (after already an entire season spent on Theon torture) instead of setting up an even remotely interesting position for him in the war (Fry Pie, et all) and b) they tipped their hand when Shireen was burned at the stake. No way was Stannis going to get anything resembling victory ever again after that.

 

That wasn't the end of the world for me though, the narrative for Stannis just changed. Abandoned by his Family, his men and his god, he was going to have his last stand. Fine. Except they skipped over all that in order to get to the quite frankly nonsensical business with Brienne. Stannis never even met Ramsay/Roose for all we know. It was, in a word, an abortion.

 

I can't shake the feeling that if the show runners had taken their time with this (say, spend an entire episode on it), it could have been amazing still. I've never subscribed to the theory that D&D hate Stannis, but clearly they didn't afford the time the characters and storylines deserved to have in this case. If this was the last of show Stannis, I'll be sad. Not just because Stephen Dillane is one of my favorite actors on the show, but because Stannis deserved more than this.

 

Here's hoping the GRRM handles it better in the books.

Edited June 16, 2015 by CrashTextDummie

[Umbelina]

I never said they wasted their time or that they were stupid, they might find that it helps them to portray their characters, but not every actor does those things. Why let something from the books that may never be on screen or might be changed from the books alter your acting choices? Cersei isn't a real person, this is an adaptation of the books, not a recreation, she obviously thought it'd be better if she played the character as written by the TV writers not by the book's author..

Then she was wrong.

 

This Cersie has no nuance whatsoever, and barely resembles the complicated character Martin wrote.

 

ETA

I don't like the actress on this show, I never have, and it hasn't changed.  I HATE the writing for Cersie on this show.  I've never seen the actress in anything else, so I have no preconceived love or hate for her.  I just don't like her "Cersie."  All I saw in that walk was "oh poor Cersie" when I should have seen so much more, the pride at the beginning, the smirk when she thought she'd fooled the religious guy, at the very least, SOME recognition that she set all of this in motion herself, by idiotically arming them.  If she had at least read her own scenes, written on the page or not, her facial expressions may have had more depth.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Umbelina

[MrWhyt]

Then she was wrong.

 

This Cersie has no nuance whatsoever, and barely resembles the complicated character Martin wrote.

and how is that Heady's fault and not the writers? she can't improvise dialogue and story lines. Without the writer's laying the groundwork there is little her knowledge of bookCersei could do to alter the character. To play her with nuance she has to be written with nuance (note this is not me agreeing that the character lacks nuance)

[BlackberryJam]

Then she was wrong.

 

This Cersie has no nuance whatsoever, and barely resembles the complicated character Martin wrote.

 

ETA

I don't like the actress on this show, I never have, and it hasn't changed.  I HATE the writing for Cersie on this show.  I've never seen the actress in anything else, so I have no preconceived love or hate for her.  I just don't like her "Cersie."  All I saw in that walk was "oh poor Cersie" when I should have seen so much more, the pride at the beginning, the smirk when she thought she'd fooled the religious guy, at the very least, SOME recognition that she set all of this in motion herself, by idiotically arming them.  If she had at least read her own scenes, written on the page or not, her facial expressions may have had more depth.

 

Yep. She has the exact same facial expression in every scene up until the arrest scene. That's not nuance. That's boring.

 

So many posts about Dillane elevating his material, yet the same can't be expected of Headey, if you disapprove of the material?

 

Honestly, if you just cut out her face in every scene, no hair or background, you wouldn't be able to tell one scene from the other.

Edited June 16, 2015 by BlackberryJam

[Umbelina]

Yeah, I don't care to just go back and forth about this, but she's interviewed here:  http://www.usmagazine.com/entertainment/news/lena-headey-game-of-thrones-finale-cersei-doesnt-deserve-2015156and to me, once again, shows her utter cluelessness.  Or the writers.  Or both.

 

BTW, although I do appreciate the actor playing Littlefinger most of the time, that whole Snidley Whiplash near mustache twirling crap he did for a while also simply made me roll my eyes.  The writers messed up there as well, or he did.  He was practically a cartoon for a while.

[Dev F]

I can't shake the feeling that if the show runners had taken their time with this (say, spend an entire episode on it), it could have been amazing still. I've never subscribed to the theory that D&D hate Stannis, but clearly they didn't afford the time the characters and storylines deserved to have in this case.

 

That's my lingering sense of much of the finale, as a matter of fact -- that the producers badly misjudged the pacing (and possibly the budgeting) of the season, and as a result had to cram a bunch of huge plot points into the last couple episodes in a way that strangled any nuance.

 

Just one more episode would've given us time to see Stannis's growing desperation, Melisandre's dawning horror that she might've backed the wrong horse, an escape plan for Sansa that didn't just involve picking a lock and a three-minute showdown between two minor characters. Plus they could've laid a little more groundwork for the Night's Watch mutiny, given more than a vague, confusing update on the state of affairs in Meereen, and at least not had the probably unsalvageable Dorne storyline end with Ellaria getting her revenge while Jaime's ship is like three minutes out of port. :p

 

Instead we got a whole episode that felt like the writers were ticking boxes next to all the things that needed to happen and then quickly moving on. "Is Stannis dead? Great. Now it's time for Myrcella to be dead! Next!"

Edited June 16, 2015 by Dev F

[benteen]

Yeah, they completely rushed fast forwarded the Battle of Winterfell.  Something that is gearing up to be an epic confrontation in The Winds of Winter.  Stannis gets to the gates of Winterfell and the battle is over in less than five minutes.  Roose Bolton doesn't even make an appearance.  I would say by and large, they completely failed the Northern storyline (along with Theon's) and it's damning that the only thing they were interested in is (Super) Ramsay raping his wife.  They showed more interest in developing Talisa's Volantis background back in Season 2 than the showed in the whole Northern storyline this season.  How the hell do you screw up something like that?  It feels to me at times that D&D read the books but don't understand them at all, particularly a number of key characters like Stannis and Jaime. 

 

Putting Sansa in the Northern storyline made sense but ultimately led nowhere.  Brienne and Pod arrive at Winterfell and literally just sit in a hotel for weeks doing nothing.  This is how they adapt that storyline?

 

Whatever issues GRRM has had writing this series over the past 15 years, I have no doubt how he portrays the Battle of Winterfell and Stannis's fate will blow away how the show did it by a mile and a half.

 

Now, as for Jon Snow, if he's really dead how is that good writing or good television?  Having Jon meet the same exact fate as House members Ned, Robb, and Catelyn...that's not good storytelling.  That's repetitive storytelling.

Edited June 16, 2015 by benteen

[Umbelina]

I don't really care about battle scenes anyway, and I thought it was damn effective showing that small army of starving foot soldiers being overwhelmed by all of those men on horse back from afar.  The outcome was obvious in that high overhead (probably CGI) shot.  I agree with you about the rest though.

[Funzlerks]

I think 90 percent of the crowd could give a rat's ass about the religion. Certainly the whores and men who got naked to mock her did not care, nor did the people trying to assault her, nor the ones who threw refuse at her. They just hate the people in charge, especially Cersei and the Lannisters, and the Faith Militant are taking advantage of that anger. They don't have 21st century morals, they speak with the insults they have at hand. They called her a slut because it is easy and there is no word for a rich person who starves people. They wanted to see her get hers.

I actually think Lena Headey does an amazing job. Watching her look at the Red Keep with such hope, then that smug look when her monster picked her up. I just wanted Cersei full throttle and the show doesn't want to give me that.

[Hecate7]

I've always thought it has to come down in the end to Tyrion, Snow, and Danaerys, because of what they all have in common. Their mothers all died giving birth to them. They all "killed" their lovers. They all three were dispossessed of their inheritance. They probably all three have Targaryen blood. I think that they collectively are the three heads of the dragon, and if one of them is dead, well, then the dragon is missing a head. If Jon Snow really stays dead, Rheagal will probably never get a rider. I still hold out hope for Viserion/Tyrion, although knowing this show that's how they'll kill Tyrion off. If they can kill Jon Snow, then neither Tyrion nor Danaerys is necessarily going to survive.

 

It could just be Ramsey Bolton, Melisandre, Varys, and Littlefinger in a room waiting for Arya to sneak in and cut all of their throats.

[Constantinople]

This Cersie has no nuance whatsoever, and barely resembles the complicated character Martin wrote.

Neither nuance nor complicated are words I would use to describe Book Cersei, and even more so after she becomes a POV character.

[Notwisconsin]

The New York Times just compared GoT to Lost. I kind of figured it would, as the books are pretty much at the same place of "where the hell are we?" stasis.

[Advance35]

I like that the good characters are suffering terrible losses.  I honestly have know idea who (if anyone) is going to be left standing at the end of all this and that's what I find so gripping about these novels.   I have people I root for and characters I root to get "theirs" but I have know idea if my hopes will come to fruition.  I've found this series to be very unpredictable.   I never thought Joffrey would get his just deserts at the hands of a scheming Grandmother bent on social climbing.   I never thought Lyssa Arryn would willingly dupe her sister and be instrumental in destroying her life and all she cared for.  I never thought Sansa would be a mule for a Kings Assasination and be complicit in the cover up of her Aunts murder.   Maybe the hero of this story isn't who we all thought.  I'm ok with that.

 

I don't really care about battle scenes anyway, and I thought it was damn effective showing that small army of starving foot soldiers being overwhelmed by all of those men on horse back from afar.  The outcome was obvious in that high overhead (probably CGI) shot.  I agree with you about the rest though.

 

Didn't bother me either.   I got the point.  Stannis's zealotry and ruthlessness led to his own downfall.   Everyone from Stannis to Littlefinger bet odds on Stannis coming out on top in the Battle of Winterfell and unfortunately for him, that's the way the cookie crumbles.   His murder of Renly, his daughter, the rigid rightousness he lived his life by, it led him to a bitter (if deserved) end.

[benteen]

The New York Times just compared GoT to Lost. I kind of figured it would, as the books are pretty much at the same place of "where the hell are we?" stasis.

 

Sadly, the Lost comparison is a fair one to make.  Especially in regards to the book.  I do think GRRM knows how it will end but has no idea how to get there.

 

Or maybe not.  He has been commented as saying that if he knows where a story is headed, he starts losing interest in it.  If that's the case, how could he possibly know how his own story ends?  It might even have changed since he originally told D&D about it.

Edited June 16, 2015 by benteen

[WearyTraveler]

He has been commented as saying that if he knows where a story is headed, he starts losing interest in it.  If that's the case, how could he possibly know how his own story ends?  It might even have changed since he originally told D&D about it.

 

He also said that even though someone in fandom had already guessed the ending, he wasn't going to change it because that would be cheating.  He said that he put the clues there for a reason and that it's fair if someone guesses.  I think that comment has more to do with the time he is taking to write the next book than with the story itself.

 

He has lost interest in writing the rest because he already knows everything that's going to happen, so, now, every time he sits down to write, it's a chore, not an enjoyable experience and this is probably one of the reasons why he has taken so long.

[Elkins]

Makes sense, her job is to portray TV Cersei, not book Cersei.

 

For which I'm sure she is grateful, as it must be awfully difficult for any living actress to deliver an accurate portrayal of an inconsistently written Freudian cartoon. Show!Cersei has an entire two dimensions, giving her performer quite a bit more to work with, and she even seems to be more or less the same character from one season to the next!

[mac123x]

Neither nuance nor complicated are words I would use to describe Book Cersei, and even more so after she becomes a POV character.

 

I totally agree.  I think she's the only character I liked decidedly less once we got to see inside her head. I thought her chapters were really well written, conveying how petty, short sighted, and vindictive she was, and her warped view of reality.  I just didn't like her.

[morgankobi]

   I am one of the many non-readers who now feels emboldened to wander formally scary threads. I have read many theories about what could happen to Jon by way of a resurrection/warging/etc. and good number of them accounting for Kit being done on the show, but not Jon.

   

  I believe that a whole new form/hanging-out-in-Ghost would probably work for the books, but now that a television show is being made at the same time, that's a problem. It's easy to transfer the voice of a character to another body in the written word, but I don't think it would actually work in a visual form. A whole other actor/cgi wolf playing Jon just wouldn't work on a television show. It would always seem like a totally different character, I believe. 

   

  I don't believe Martin should necessarily worry about that as he writes. IMO his priority should be the books, but of course he is aware of some of the constraints of film as he writes. It brings up an interesting conundrum.

Edited June 16, 2015 by morgankobi

[elzin]

I don't want Jon dead. I don't think he is book!dead.  While I would hate it, I could see these two clowns keeping Jon show!dead.

 

So what is bugging me about the "confirmations" (scare quotes because I don't know if it's true or trolling by the show) about him being gone is that exist right now. Like, let the finale sit with us for a few days, a few weeks. I would like some time to absorb the trainwreck we just saw without the distraction of casting drama. I was planning on watching next season just to hate watch, but being told no Jon makes me so angry I don't know I'll do even that. It's kicking me while I'm down.

[anamika]

Neither nuance nor complicated are words I would use to describe Book Cersei, and even more so after she becomes a POV character.

 

Pretty much. Book Cersei was a stereotypical caricature, in many ways similar to the cartoonish villain that's Ramsay. I disliked that GRRM took Jaime down a different path with a so called 'Redemption arc' while making Cersei one dimensionally evil and all because of some Maggie the Frog prophecy. We even get Jaime blaming Cersei for all his actions. He was equally to blame for adultery and incest but gets away with a lost hand, while Cersei gets the literal slut shaming and sexual punishment. I like Show! Cersei better as Headey is given more to do.

 

There's also the fact that the show is more about the Lannisters, as opposed to the book being more about the Starks. This is due to the Lannisters being played by older, more experienced actors who get first billing on the show. They are also a big part of the soap opera drama that is big draw for a TV audience as opposed to the fantastical elements involving the Starks (Arya, Bran, Jon). The Lannisters have more screen time on the show compared to the Starks. In the books the Starks have more POV chapters. We spend a lot more time with Show Cersei than we do with Show Jon (In the books Jon has 42 chapters as opposed to Cersei's 12), which changes the show in many ways and makes the character more sympathetic. IMO.

Edited June 17, 2015 by anamika

[ParadoxLost]

I like that the good characters are suffering terrible losses.  I honestly have know idea who (if anyone) is going to be left standing at the end of all this and that's what I find so gripping about these novels. .

 

This is why the show is starting to lose me.  I know that this is more realistic.  The leaders don't take out their enemies' sniveling second cousin twice removed, they take out their rival before the rival takes them out.  But what that means to the show is that the most powerful and charismatic characters, both good and not so good, are winding up dead.   

[Pete Martell]

This is why the show is starting to lose me.  I know that this is more realistic.  The leaders don't take out their enemies' sniveling second cousin twice removed, they take out their rival before the rival takes them out.  But what that means to the show is that the most powerful and charismatic characters, both good and not so good, are winding up dead.   

 

I don't even know that it's realistic at this point. With characters like Tywin, yes, but shit-for-brains-Baelish, inane Olenna whose main skill is cheap slurs and running out of town, and Ramsay Stu are about as realistic of antagonists or plot movers as Wile E. Coyote. It's just repetitive nihilism at this point.

There's also the fact that the show is more about the Lannisters, as opposed to the book being more about the Starks. 

 

I wonder if this is another reason the show has struggled (to me) these last two seasons. Season 4 was a Lannister-heavy season and I found their stories hugely underwhelming. Tyrion officially became too one-note and woobiesh and dull for me to ever care about, Jaime was destroyed, Tywin also became very one-dimensional, and Cersei didn't have much to do.

 

This season has only continued to make the family more wan and more of a collection of caricatures. The only one I probably had any interest in was Lancel, and sometimes Cersei. 

Edited June 17, 2015 by Pete Martell

[anamika]

I don't even know that it's realistic at this point. With characters like Tywin, yes, but shit-for-brains-Baelish, inane Olenna whose main skill is cheap slurs and running out of town, and Ramsay Stu are about as realistic of antagonists or plot movers as Wile E. Coyote. It's just repetitive nihilism at this point.

 

To be fair, I have some of the same problems with the books where the good guys continue to have the shittiest luck ever while the bad guys skate by A-OK. Unluckily for Ned, Robert chooses that exact time to get drunk and go hunting, but Tyrion never thinks to let anyone know that Littlefinger was the one who framed him with the dagger.  GRRM stacks the deck against the good guys, making it very hard for them to win, which is why I find claims that the book is so 'realistic' to be rather hilarious. In the real world, both good guys and bad guys win. In GRRM's world only the bad guys win.

 

I think the only scene of cathartic justice in the books for me was Jon taking off Slynt's head. Tyrion offing Tywin, Jaime getting his hand chopped off or Cersei's walk of shame had no real effect on me.  Five books later and the Lannisters are still sitting on the throne, the Boltons still have the North, Walder Frey is alive and kicking, Littlefinger still has plot armor and the Starks are still powerless. I am pinning my hopes on Dany to get the Lannisters off the throne and I hope she gets to Westeros in the next book at the least.

 

And I am really, really hoping that Lady Stoneheart finally gets justice by dealing with Jaime but I get the feeling that idiot Brienne will get in the way and once again he will not end up paying for what he did to Bran. And it's sad that the show did away with the only Stark actually getting payback for what was done to her family. Stoneheart hanging Freys was such justice! moment in the books. But I guess we got Arya taking out paedophile Meryn Trant instead.

Edited June 17, 2015 by anamika

[loki567]

The way I look at it, none of the "bad guys," are getting out of the series alive. The Lannisters' power base is utterly crippled and the only guy who could have kept them afloat is killed at the end of ADWD. The Freys are clearly being hunted down to extinction. The Boltons are surrounded inside and out of Winterfell by enemies and ADWD made it clear that The North will never accept them as lords. Littlefinger will probably survive until the last book but he's grooming a protege who will have a reason to want to see him dead when she finds out about his role in Ned's death. It's taking awhile because otherwise there's no conflict and there would be no story, but I think roughly half the bad guys who have been introduced in the books have come to grisly ends and I'm expecting similar results for the other half.

[feverfew]

I got really desillusioned with the books (waiting five years for Feast and then almost six for Dragons - both of which were progressively worse - will do that to a person) and I think - even with all the deviations, even with deviations I neither understand nor aprove of - I actually prefer the show to the books now.

 

Is the show perfect? No, but while I do think that season five had more issues than the previous ones, I still prefer a condensed season five to the meandering ramblings of Feast and Dragons. I think Martin has lost his way, more than the show runners. And if we can forgive Feast and Dance for being transitional novels, why not season five?

 

The things that seems to have made book readers most angry - Sansa in Winterfell, Stannis burning Shireen and his subsequent death - I never really had problems with. Did I enjoy Sansa-as-victim? No, but it never made me less of a fan of her character. And since I never was a fan of Stannis in the books (burning people alive can never be justified) I thought his death to be a fitting end to a greek tragedy character.

 

I'll be here next season, cheering and crying, and hoping Jon will be ressurected.

 

I'm more than happy to judge the TV show harshly if it falls short of the source material, if it neglects some important nuance from the books that robs the story of meaning, etc. I think large portions of the finale fell down quite embarrassingly in those respects. But I don't agree with this notion that the show owes the books fidelity for fidelity's sake, as if pointing out that a character or storyline is different is all that's needed to demonstrate that it's not as good.

 

And, hey, maybe there's some important way that show!Cersei is inferior to book!Cersei. I rather doubt it, myself, but I'm willing to entertain the possibility. However, shouldn't it be incumbent on the show's critics to articulate that supposed inferiority so we can debate it on the merits? If all we're doing is complaining, "Look how different it is! It should be less different!" we're reducing the analysis of the text to mere scorekeeping.

Thank you! This post said everything I wanted to say about the book-show schism, and more.

[John Potts]

OK, one thing that's bugging me - even though I haven't seen any of S5, if Stannis sacrificed his daughter, shouldn't that have done SOMETHING to power him up/mess up his enemies? We've seen several times that Mel's magic works (like when she produced the Deus ex vagina assassin that killed Renly) and so the sacrifice of his child should have enabled him to win. I'd've been fine with him winning the battle (I'm sure I remember a preview chapter from Winds of Winter where he's

chatting with a (chained) Theon which I thought was in Winterfell

) only for Brienne to walk up to him, go "Karma's a bitch!" and stab him, which you could see as a fitting end.

Edited June 17, 2015 by John Potts

[SFoster21]

Someone in the unsullied thread said that the snow melted; the gods give less than they take. That makes sense.

Edited June 17, 2015 by SFoster21

[benteen]

I thought hearing that the Mountain was dying a slow and agonizing death was a cathartic.  He was finally suffering the way his victims had suffered.

[Winnief]

For the first time ever she seems shaken and it's because she doesn't understand how she could have been so wrong. I don't think she feels guilt, I think she feels fear because she's been totally shaken when it comes to her abilities.

 

I still want to know why she thinks she can just show up at Castle Black to hang out

 

I think Mel had a dawning realization/vision that she'd made a horrible mistake regarding who AA was...and went to Castle Black to get the real McCoy...I firmly believe that while Jon Snow may well be dead and gone, Jon Targaryen is about to be born. 

 

To be fair, I have some of the same problems with the books where the good guys continue to have the shittiest luck ever while the bad guys skate by A-OK. Unluckily for Ned, Robert chooses that exact time to get drunk and go hunting, but Tyrion never thinks to let anyone know that Littlefinger was the one who framed him with the dagger.  GRRM stacks the deck against the good guys, making it very hard for them to win, which is why I find claims that the book is so 'realistic' to be rather hilarious. In the real world, both good guys and bad guys win. In GRRM's world only the bad guys win.

 

Allow me to kiss this whole post on the lips. 

 

I got really desillusioned with the books (waiting five years for Feast and then almost six for Dragons - both of which were progressively worse - will do that to a person) and I think - even with all the deviations, even with deviations I neither understand nor aprove of - I actually prefer the show to the books now.

 

Is the show perfect? No, but while I do think that season five had more issues than the previous ones, I still prefer a condensed season five to the meandering ramblings of Feast and Dragons. I think Martin has lost his way, more than the show runners. And if we can forgive Feast and Dance for being transitional novels, why not season five?

 

Agreed.  I don't give D&D a full free pass for some of the choices they made but ultimately I think most of the problems with this season originated with the source material.  And frankly, I have far, FAR more faith in the showrunners to eventually give us a satisfying conclusion than I do with Martin.

[benteen]

Of the two of them, yeah, GRRM is definitely the one that lost his way.  D&D did have to adapt GRRM's last two bloated books and can't be blamed for the source materials.  They can be blamed for some of the lousy choices they made when adapting it.  But the problem goes back to GRRM's source material, AFFC and ADWD, which are the two weakest books of the series.

[nksarmi]

OK, one thing that's bugging me - even though I haven't seen any of S5, if Stannis sacrificed his daughter, shouldn't that have done SOMETHING to power him up/mess up his enemies? We've seen several times that Mel's magic works (like when she produced the Deus ex vagina assassin that killed Renly) and so the sacrifice of his child should have enabled him to win. I'd've been fine with him winning the battle (I'm sure I remember a preview chapter from Winds of Winter where he's

chatting with a (chained) Theon which I thought was in Winterfell

) only for Brienne to walk up to him, go "Karma's a bitch!" and stab him, which you could see as a fitting end.

I'm actually really glad it didn't work because I didn't want there to be any justification for that horrible, horrible act.  I was VERY satisfied with this ending - I fail to see how it could match up with the books, but I guess we have to wait until next year to discover that.

 

The thing with the shadow baby was real magic, but I don't think she burned someone with king's blood to make that happen.  Furthermore, the show has never addressed the blood magic with the leaches didn't account for Balon Greyjoy's death (though he does die in the books) and how its not that difficult for men to die in war and intrigue and how the whole damn thing could have been coincidence.

 

I think burning Shireen didn't work because in the end, the Baratheons are no more king's blood than any other great house in Westerous.  My theory is that logically speaking only a Targ has a right to the Iron Throne and that's the only king's blood that counts OR there is king's blood all over the place because before the Targs came the Starks were kings, the Greyjoys were kings, the Martells were kings, and so on.....

[nksarmi]

Of the two of them, yeah, GRRM is definitely the one that lost his way.  D&D did have to adapt GRRM's last two bloated books and can't be blamed for the source materials.  They can be blamed for some of the lousy choices they made when adapting it.  But the problem goes back to GRRM's source material, AFFC and ADWD, which are the two weakest books of the series.

I have no faith in GRRM to finish this series, but if he ever does, I imagine the last book will be spectacular.  He has written some great stories - he just let the whole tale spin out of control and get way too big (IMO).  He should have kept the main story a little more compact and written short stories to compliment the main storyline. 

 

To me the biggest mistake he made was having Dany stop in Meereen to rule.  On the one hand, I understand why he did it - to make her drive to free the slaves about more than building an army, she has to make sure the change sticks.  But she can't come in, conquer, and create change without staying and ruling and I honestly fail to see how she can ever leave Mereen if she means to shut down Slavers Bay.  That kind of change in thinking and life doesn't come about in a few years - she would have to spend her whole life ruling there and have someone follow her who believed the same thing to make this change work.  A generation of former slaves would need to birth a generation of free people and so on for minds to start viewing the world differently.

 

So now GRRM has put Dany in a place where she either forgets the Iron Throne (which at this point, I would not mind if she did) and fully immerses herself in Meereen and Slavers Bay to change that part of the world OR she fails.  How does she go from Meereen to Westerous as a failed leader and get people to follow her?  It's a total mess.  So for five books and five seasons, I have believed Dany was meant for the Iron Throne, that the mystery of the Dragon has Three Heads would be solved, and that her dragons would be key to defeating the others.  But now, I just don't see how she gets from point A to point B without looking really bad in the process.

 

Other than that, GRRM needs to get characters that matter back together and I think there is a real chance he has spread them out so far that it seems unlikely to happen over the course of one single book.  Since the show uses teleporters constantly, I think there will have an easier time compressing the story if they choose to do so.  But right now, while GRRM seems to still sort of have an end game in mind (the Long Night and the Iron Throne) - it doesn't feel like the show does.  I mean, they just showed us Hardhome, but then they end the show with more stuff indicating trouble and revenge between the great houses with ZERO sign that anyone can bring the 7 kingdoms together for the war to come.  I could accept that that was point if AA were about to be reborn, but all of these interviews do not make me happy.

[Advance35]

I think the only scene of cathartic justice in the books for me was Jon taking off Slynt's head. Tyrion offing Tywin, Jaime getting his hand chopped off or Cersei's walk of shame had no real effect on me.  Five books later and the Lannisters are still sitting on the throne, the Boltons still have the North, Walder Frey is alive and kicking, Littlefinger still has plot armor and the Starks are still powerless. I am pinning my hopes on Dany to get the Lannisters off the throne and I hope she gets to Westeros in the next book at the least.

 

Does it make a difference to you if "Justice" is delivered by someone unrelated to the victims.  I know an unsullied friend thought Joffrey got the painful end he deserved but she was mad that he was poisoned by Olenna and not a Stark.

 

Twyin was instrumental in engineering the Red Wedding but it was his lifelong contention with Tyrion that killed him.   They met bad ends but it wasn't at the hands of their more prominent victims (though Tyrion would be close, though it get's muddy since he's also benefited from House Lannister's ascension).

 

It's not universal but I feel like the Lannister's are getting their just deserts.   They are slowly and systematically being muscled out of Power by House Tyrell.   The Tyrells are doing to the Lannisters, what the Lannister's did to the Baratheons.   ADWD the majority of the Guards are sworn to Highgarden, the Small Council is either dead even or in favor of the Tyrells and they benefit in the arena of Public Opinion while House Lannister continues to appear as the sole villain of the aristocracy.

 

I was glad Lady Stoneheart was excluded because I don't think she will ultimately matter.   I feel like Jaimie is going to escape from her in a ridiculous manner and I'm going to spend the rest of the novels groaning and rolling my eyes whenever she shows up again.  I don't mind the show sparing me that.  

 

But for this tale to constitute the bitter-sweet ending GRRM claims, some bad guys MUST survive.

[proserpina65]

We even get Jaime blaming Cersei for all his actions. He was equally to blame for adultery and incest but gets away with a lost hand, while Cersei gets the literal slut shaming and sexual punishment.

 

To me, losing a hand is magnitudes WORSE than the Walk of Shame.  Walking naked through Kings Landing while people shout and throw things at you is temporary.  One-handedness is forever.

[Funzlerks]

To me, watching the Freys and Lannisters get theirs is one of the most important parts of the book. The show has a different feel and that's why I think the show is darker an less fulfilling. The Red Wedding in the show feels like a total end for the Sarks, but in the books it is something that is overcome and is remembered by people of all station as something horrible done to good people. The show makes the Red Wedding seem like another stupid thing the Starks got into and the magnificent bad guys totally owned it without a single detriment to themselves.

Westeros feels lacking in the sort of magic and morality the Starks represent. To simplify things the show locked Sansa in a room for episodes. I feel like the same general effect could have been accomplished with no room locking and a couple hellos to passing lords as she travels under guard around the castle. She could have been imprisoned at Winterfell and terrified and in very succinct shorthand let it be known that not everyone is a complete Bolton toady and Sansa can figure it out. The room-locking also sacrificed her development into the sort of person who could actually lead behind the scenes - Kit Harrington talked about how Jon Snow and Ned Stark get so focused on doing the right thing they ignore the people immediately around them. Sansa is the Stark who knows how to pay attention in the books! She is insanely observant even when she doesn't know how to put the pieces together and the show keeps her in a room in order to give her the story of someone else.

One reason I think Stannis is alive is that in the books there is no way Brienne gets to Winterfell by the end of the battle. Or maybe not having the magic that works in the books actually work is another invention for expediency. Cannot lose the Boltons too soon! What is GoT without bad guys getting theirs without any good people except Brienne to stop them?

Edited June 17, 2015 by Funzlerks

[Skeeter22]

Now that the season is over, I've been thinking about why they cut Arianne from Dorne. Before the season, I think the consensus was that they needed the three Sand Snakes because they had long term importance and Arianne did not. In the end, we got a dead Myrcella and nothing else out of Dorne. No reveal of Doran's plan and Trystane is looking more like a Lannister hostage than a power player. It really felt like we could never see any of the characters in Dorne again after that finale and no one would care.

It makes even less sense to me now to cut Arianne and the queenmaker plot. They still could have ended up with Myrcella dead, and at least it would have made more sense than killing her for revenge. Upsetting the Lannister dynasty by making her queen would be more complete revenge than just straight up killing her. None of this would have taken more time than what we actually got.

[Advance35]

It makes even less sense to me now to cut Arianne and the queenmaker plot. They still could have ended up with Myrcella dead, and at least it would have made more sense than killing her for revenge. Upsetting the Lannister dynasty by making her queen would be more complete revenge than just straight up killing her. None of this would have taken more time than what we actually got.

 

I never got that part of the Martell's revenge in the books.   The Aegon thing, ace.  But making Myrcella a Queen, she IS a Lannister.   Was it just to cause discord (or hope to) amidst House Lannister and hoping that the family would divide over it and destroy each other?    I've found Arianne unremarkable but I always assumed her claime to fame as a character was going to come about with Aegon.   Now that Aegon's been scrapped in the show I can see why they didn't want to use her.   I wish they had casted differently for the Sand Snakes, I think that would've helped a lot.   The fact that the Sand Snakes were so vastly different in appearance made their backgrounds so much more intriueing in the book.   They and Sunspear had a certain mystique.

 

To me, watching the Freys and Lannisters get theirs is one of the most important parts of the book. The show has a different feel and that's why I think the show is darker an less fulfilling. The Red Wedding in the show feels like a total end for the Sarks, but in the books it is something that is overcome and is remembered by people of all station as something horrible done to good people.

 

IA that the Red Wedding may not get the emphasis it should in the Show but It's a burden largely carried by House Frey.   They take the bulk of the blame, Tywin see's to that.  In the show Bran was crippled by Jaimie and Karma has found him and kicked him and Cersei times 10.  Olenna Tyrell murdered Joffrey right in front of a devestated Cersei.   House Martell murdered Myrcella right in Jaimie's arms.   I think House Lannister is definitely beginning to reap what they sow.  

[SeanC]

I never got that part of the Martell's revenge in the books.   The Aegon thing, ace.  But making Myrcella a Queen, she IS a Lannister.   Was it just to cause discord (or hope to) amidst House Lannister and hoping that the family would divide over it and destroy each other?  

The Myrcella plot wasn't the Martells' revenge, it was Arianne's plan.  Arianne likes Myrcella, and wasn't out to kill children.

[Danny Franks]

The Myrcella plot wasn't the Martells' revenge, it was Arianne's plan.  Arianne likes Myrcella, and wasn't out to kill children.

 

Yep. Doran's original plan was to marry Arianne to Viserys, thus cementing an alliance that would bring the Targaryens back to power. Then, when Viserys died, he switched it to Quentyn marrying Dany. And it was a fantastic reveal in the books, when Doran finally told Arianne what he'd been planning all those years.

 

Shame the show scrapped all that. But they don't like good things, it seems.

[Fen]

Having had some time to mull it over, I think what's staying with me the most about the season finale is a feeling of undelivered promise and squandered potential when it comes to the North and in particular the Battle for Winterfell. I was really, REALLY looking forward to that. It was famed strategist Stannis fresh off a victory over the wildlings marching against ruthless and cunning camp Bolton. I thought (moreso in the book, granted) that the victor was up in the air. The show added Brienne and Sansa to the mix (while leaving out Yara) and that made things more complex still, or so I thought. Well... They made two crucial mistakes in my opinion: a) they decided to play up Ramsay's sadism some more and then some (after already an entire season spent on Theon torture) instead of setting up an even remotely interesting position for him in the war (Fry Pie, et all) and b) they tipped their hand when Shireen was burned at the stake. No way was Stannis going to get anything resembling victory ever again after that.

 

That wasn't the end of the world for me though, the narrative for Stannis just changed. Abandoned by his Family, his men and his god, he was going to have his last stand. Fine. Except they skipped over all that in order to get to the quite frankly nonsensical business with Brienne. Stannis never even met Ramsay/Roose for all we know. It was, in a word, an abortion.

 

I can't shake the feeling that if the show runners had taken their time with this (say, spend an entire episode on it), it could have been amazing still. I've never subscribed to the theory that D&D hate Stannis, but clearly they didn't afford the time the characters and storylines deserved to have in this case. If this was the last of show Stannis, I'll be sad. Not just because Stephen Dillane is one of my favorite actors on the show, but because Stannis deserved more than this.

 

Here's hoping the GRRM handles it better in the books.

 

I agree totally.  I feel like the whole storyline in the North was completely squandered.  Like you - I've never been sure if D&D hate Stannis - but I feel they've consistently short-changed that particular strand of the story.

 

Right now I feel like Melisandre and Ramsay are the characters who are getting off on easy street. 

 

I thought Melisandre's facial expression when she arrived at the Wall was tremendous.  It was that very specific facial expression you only get when you've spent a looong time crying.  She looked broken.

 

We've not really had a real chance to see how Melisandre's reacted, but the one issue at the core of her whole existence has crumbled.  she genuinely believed that Stannis was Azor Ahai, and that the only way to save the world was to make sure he took the throne.  That's gone in one fell swoop.  She's seemed unassailable in her faith until this point - it's now time for a long dark night of the soul