Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Pete Martell]

Forgive me, but is this a fact? 

Personally, I thought that Arya got the audience interest  on her own perfectly well from the pilot, when she was that original cute little girl with a helmet who was so eager to see the Imp, and then when she was that hunted girl finding Needdle in her stuff, killing to survive and escaping via a road she found by herself, etc, etc...until she was the only character in the last scenes in S4, scenes that I have often seen praised. 

Moreover, I saw many people state that they were looking forward to her Braavos storyline before Jaqen was ever mentioned as returning.

Finally, I was rather under the impression that Arya contributed at least for 50% in the popularity of her "pairings". But personally again, I never liked the Hound as a "person" before he interacted with Arya, although I appreciated him as a charismatic character, and I wasn't -and still isn't- in on the Jaqen hype.

 

It's not a fact - it's my opinion. 

 

Most of the commentary about Arya that I saw always revolved around how she was such a bad-ass, she was going to make everyone pay, she's not weak, isn't she so brave, etc. There was also a great deal of putting down of Sansa in comparison to her - that she was weak and Arya was strong.

 

Now that we get what is, in this show's mind presumably, a "strong" Sansa, it's basically steeped in the same type of revenge tropes, even similar dialogue to what Arya likely would have said. It's an ugly hybrid of a character - she suffers and suffers, to tick D&D's boxes of what women are supposed to go through, but her suffering isn't so hard, because it makes her a "bad-ass," to tick D&D's boxes of what a strong woman is supposed to be. 

 

Based on all the huge love for The Hound everywhere (whereas I haven't seen that type of interest in Arya since about season 2 or 3), and the lackluster reception to her since his departure, I tend to put a lot of her story interest in the last few seasons on him. Arya on her own is basically a shell. And I feel like the same has happened to Sansa - if they don't have her defined by Baelish, or Joffrey 2.0, she's just there, filling the basic template of a D&D heroine. 

[Cheshrkat]

So much of this. It creeps me out. I'm fine with Cersei getting arrested and paying consequences but I am not excited to see a person shamed because their sexuality doesn't happen to go in line with a particular religion. Cersei was not made to walk because of the horrible things she'd done IMO. There's something about the KL audience participation in the walk that is truly awful and in the book it seems like there's a very real chance that a massive gang rape is about to take place and it just made me feel horrified and uncomfortable and made me feel firmly on Cersei's side in spite of everything she'd done. I don't think a walk is okay for anyone and didn't like that the former High Septon was made to go through one either. 

 

Whether the High Septon ends up being burned by wildfire or dragonfire or gets his head ripped off by Frankengregor, I won't feel sorry for him at all. He's a power hungry and prejudiced fanatic who is going to be dangerous to anyone who doesn't happen to completely share his beliefs. Just because he isn't a materialistic person doesn't mean that he isn't also an incredibly dangerous opportunist. 

 

I am 100% convinced that D&D had the former High Septon go through a preview version of the Walk of Shame so that they could counter allegations of sexism when Cersei goes through hers.  ("It's not because she's a woman!  It's because she's a sinner!")

[Holmbo]

My impression of the sparrow is as a the-means-are-the-ends kinda guy. His motivation is to live a pious life. Which means to help the poor and arrest those who doesn't follow the religious laws. I think he wants to restore the power of the faith just for that reason itself. Not to help anyone. He seems to enjoy the power I guess but I don't think he'd hesitate to sacrifice himself to further the church.

[SeanC]

I agree with you that they aren't the worst people in the story. That's about the best that can be said about them. Just take what the High Sparrow had to say about widows in the books--IMO it couldn't be more clear that the guy is a misogynistic douchebag. 

 

Frankly I don't think that the book HS cares anything about being just and right. He'd take the Lannister/Tyrell alliance over Stannis an dhis well known reputation for being just because Stannis is hooked up with the wrong faith. 

Well, yeah, because this is a world where notions of being just are intrinsically linked with religion.  Stannis does not serve the gods, and therefore he cannot be truly just.  There's nothing unusual about that, either in the world of Westeros or in most of world history.  True religious pluralism within a state has a very short history in European civilization, and in Westeros the monarch on the Iron Throne has always been explicitly allied with the Faith of the Seven.  It would be like expecting a medieval Anglican cleric to back a Catholic for the throne of England.

 

In the show, the HS isn't making KL better he's making it worse IMO. He's going out of his way to knowingly threaten their food supply, he's keeping loads of people from making money and spending money, he's having his Sparrows harass people in the streets, the sparrows are clearly (IMO) being encouraged to mutilate themselves, the jails are filling up, people are being persecuted for their sexuality, and he's done his best to isolate an underage king and make him more vulnerable than ever as if that's going to help their side. (HS isn't pro-Targ or Stannis because of the Lord of Light so Tommen is what they have left since they don't seem like they're trying to overthrow the monarchy--at least I haven't gotten that impression. I think he wants to have them under the thumb of the Faith is all.)

I'm not getting the impression at all that the HS genuinely cares about helping the smallfolk. I think he only cares about his agenda and that's all about getting people to fall in line with the Faith. I certainly don't think he'd give a damn about any common people in Westeros who follow a different faith.

 

 

The show has amped up the negative aspects of the Sparrows in the streets, but even then we've seen them feeding the poor, etc.  The High Sparrow is clearly talking about a class revolution in Westeros, aimed at bringing down the nobles and making them subject to the same laws as everyone else.  As to the food supply, he's basically dared the Tyrells to cut it off, and said that if they try it their own peasants will not back them, which the Queen of Thorns clearly thinks may be true.  Social revolution on this scale is never bloodless or easy, but the aristocracy has already engulfed the entire continent in war, and Cersei quite nakedly runs the entire realm solely for the convenience of her own family.  Why would he not want her gone?

 

As for whether he cares about common people in Westeros of a different Faith, perhaps not, but the Faith is effectively the only religion south of the Neck anyway, so that's not actually much of a concern.

[Holmbo]

I am 100% convinced that D&D had the former High Septon go through a preview version of the Walk of Shame so that they could counter allegations of sexism when Cersei goes through hers. ("It's not because she's a woman! It's because she's a sinner!")

I agree and I think that was a smart move of them.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Holmbo

[benteen]

Truth be told in retrospect, I think that was a major flaw in the books.  I get that Martin was subverting classic tropes by having Tywin die when he did, but his absence has created a major hole in the series that's been a struggle to fill on screen or on page.  Frankly, there's no one left in Westeros to seem like a *credible* threat to Dany anymore, (except the White Walkers of course.)  And really *not* getting to see Tywin's reaction to dragons and White Walkers seems like a missed opportunity. 

 

Now the Boltons at least are fun to hate on, but they're not long lived, (and typing this I think one reason they gave Sansa Jeyne's storyline was to make the Boltons seem more relevant to viewers by having them directly threatening a Stark) so that's another reason I think Euron's showing up in Season 6, because GoT *needs* human villains besides Cersei, (as fun as it is watching her self destruct.)  The problem is that again, while Euron's easy to hate, I'm not sure he poses much of a challenge for Dany.  That might be part of why Martin's stuck. 

 

Oh well, at least there's a good chance we'll see Sansa take down Baelish which would be fitting-and is she IS the YMBQ then that would be pretty satisfying indeed for a change.

 

And I agree with SeanC-the fact that they're playing up the anti-gay violence is proof the show doesn't want us to sympathize with the FM.  But JP is so good, he draws us in anyway, and while we don't like seeing them persecute Margaery or Loras, people can't help but feel that Cersei has brought it all down on herself.  I can't say I'm looking forward to the Walk of Shame-it was queasy on the page and will probably be more so when its on screen, but I *am* excited for Lena's performance. 

 

Excellent post, particularly in regards to Dany.  Dany's return to Westeros was made far less interesting by the end of A Storm of Swords because the Usurper and most of his dogs are dead.  Robert, Tywin, Clegane, Ned (don't like lumping Ned in here but he's an enemy to Dany) are all gone.  The only "dogs" still left are Jaime, who killed her father but will likely meet his fate elsewhere and Stannis, who lead the fleet that drove her and her brother off of Dragonstone.  So her "getting back what's belonged to her family" is far less interesting.  Though the Martells quest for the Iron Throne is even more uninteresting because EVERYONE who ever wronged them is dead.

 

If the show has Stannis burn Shireen, it will be the final indisputable proof that D&D and Cogman absolutely hate Stannis, an incredibly compelling character they have mishandled since his initial introduction.  I don't even like the idea of Stannis so much as considering burning Shireen.

[SeanC]

I am 100% convinced that D&D had the former High Septon go through a preview version of the Walk of Shame so that they could counter allegations of sexism when Cersei goes through hers.  ("It's not because she's a woman!  It's because she's a sinner!")

The Sparrows made men do nude walks too in the books, though not to the High Septon.  It happened to Septon Ollidor, who was dragged out of a brothel and paraded through the streets naked, dooming his candidacy to replace the High Septon that Cersei had murdered.

[Avaleigh]

Well, yeah, because this is a world where notions of being just are intrinsically linked with religion.  Stannis does not serve the gods, and therefore he cannot be truly just.  There's nothing unusual about that, either in the world of Westeros or in most of world history.  True religious pluralism within a state has a very short history in European civilization, and in Westeros the monarch on the Iron Throne has always been explicitly allied with the Faith of the Seven.  It would be like expecting a medieval Anglican cleric to back a Catholic for the throne of England.

 

The show has amped up the negative aspects of the Sparrows in the streets, but even then we've seen them feeding the poor, etc.  The High Sparrow is clearly talking about a class revolution in Westeros, aimed at bringing down the nobles and making them subject to the same laws as everyone else.  As to the food supply, he's basically dared the Tyrells to cut it off, and said that if they try it their own peasants will not back them, which the Queen of Thorns clearly thinks may be true.  Social revolution on this scale is never bloodless or easy, but the aristocracy has already engulfed the entire continent in war, and Cersei quite nakedly runs the entire realm solely for the convenience of her own family.  Why would he not want her gone?

 

As for whether he cares about common people in Westeros of a different Faith, perhaps not, but the Faith is effectively the only religion south of the Neck anyway, so that's not actually much of a concern.

It is a concern because the HS even takes issue with people who are officially members of the faith but aren't pious enough for his taste. (And let's be real--most regular people aren't going to be pious enough for the HS's taste.) On the surface Margaery was a model maiden and follower of the Faith. You have people who worship the seven but it still doesn't keep them from visiting a brothel. The HS is a fanatic so he wants people to completely toe the line and isn't willing to make for allowances. This isn't just about him not caring about the smallfolk from different faiths. We're talking about him taking issue with everyone rich or poor who doesn't conform to his extremely narrow idea of how people should live their lives. In no way is this guy not a threat to people who follow the Faith of the Seven.

 

It's not that I expect the HS to be willing to support Stannis and the red god that Stannis is seemingly following for all intents and purposes. What I object to is the idea that he and the Faith Militant are supposedly representing the interests of the common people. It's like, no, I'm sorry, but I just don't see how that's what's happening here. He'd like to believe it's so but his prejudice and narrow minded mentality make it impossible for me to believe that he's a good hearted figure who just wants to help the common people of the realm. 

 

I see him as completely ushering in a new era of misery and persecution. A Reign of Terror. 

Edited May 26, 2015 by Avaleigh

[SeanC]

It's not that I expect him to be willing to support Stannis and the red god that he is seemingly following for all intents and purposes. What I object to is the idea that he and the Faith Militant are supposedly representing the interests of the common people. It's like, no, I'm sorry, but I just don't see how that's what's happening here. He'd like to believe it's so but his prejudice and narrow minded mentality make it impossible for me to believe that he's a good hearted figure who just wants to help the common people of the realm. 

I didn't say that he "just" wants that, or that he represents everybody -- heck, there's not even really one notion of what the interests of the common people are (hence, modern politics).  But he clearly speaks for a very large group of them, unlike every other political actor in the series, who represents a very narrow dynastic interest where ordinary people are just chattels and pawns.

 

The ordinary people of Westeros are already oppressed within a feudal system, and at the mercy of a handful of families who have just subjected the whole continent to a tremendously bloody war.  The High Sparrow represents the common people's backlash against this malgovernance.  I don't think a state run by him would be perfect, by any means, but I don't think it would ever be worse than what Westeros currently has, and given his emphasis on economic justice I expect it would be better in quite a few respects for the poorest Westerosi.

 

A lot of the commentary around this storyline in the books has talked about the need to preserve "separation of church and state", etc., ignoring that Westeros does not have that.  It's just that under the Targaryens it was the church that was basically a propaganda wing of the government, serving its interests.  The High Sparrow wants to end that, and wants to hold the aristocracy to the same rules as everyone else -- and that makes him dangerous to the entrenched interests.  It doesn't make him a saint, either, but if I were a commoner in King's Landing I'd back him over Cersei or the Tyrells every day of the week.

Edited May 25, 2015 by SeanC

[magdalene]

 

 

Why?  They're no worse than any other group in the story, and in many respects they're much better.  They're the only political organization in the story trying to represent the interests of the common people, and they're completely correct that the ruling families and their apparatchiks have engulfed the continent in warfare out of a glorified family feud, leading to untold suffering, particularly in the Riverlands, which is where most of the Sparrows are from.  They are a populist religious movement in opposition to the corrupt aristocracy and church hierarchy, as regularly occurred in the Middle Ages.

They're not saints, by any means, but they're nowhere near the worst people in the story.  And I'd certainly side with them over Cersei.

Why? Because I don't trust any religious or political group that condemns people because they are "sluts", or because a person's sexuality doesn't meet with their approval, or because they are just "wrong" or not pious enough.  Those kind of groups are more dangerous and poisonous than the Ramsays of the world because for all of his evil Ramsay is just one person. When a group like this gets unchecked power they  will try to convert everybody to their way of thinking and living. And eventually maybe they will make concentration camps where they will put all the "wrong" people and start killing them. History has taught me not to trust groups made of fanatics of any ilk.

[Constantinople]

The High Sparrow is clearly talking about a class revolution in Westeros, aimed at bringing down the nobles and making them subject to the same laws as everyone else.  As to the food supply, he's basically dared the Tyrells to cut it off, and said that if they try it their own peasants will not back them, which the Queen of Thorns clearly thinks may be true.

At this point in the show, I don't know why the peasants in the Reach would side with the High Sparrow. The Reach has pretty much been untouched by the war, and the show hasn't suggested the Reach is misgoverned. Nor has there been any suggestion that country, the agrarian peasantry, would identify with city, the urban proletariat.

 

I didn't say that he "just" wants that, or that he represents everybody -- heck, there's not even really one notion of what the interests of the common people are (hence, modern politics).  But he clearly speaks for a very large group of them, unlike every other political actor in the series, who represents a very narrow dynastic interest where ordinary people are just chattels and pawns.

 

The ordinary people of Westeros are already oppressed within a feudal system, and at the mercy of a handful of families who have just subjected the whole continent to a tremendously bloody war.  The High Sparrow represents the common people's backlash against this malgovernance.  I don't think a state run by him would be perfect, by any means, but I don't think it would ever be worse than what Westeros currently has, and given his emphasis on economic justice I expect it would be better in quite a few respects for the poorest Westerosi.

 

A lot of the commentary around this storyline in the books has talked about the need to preserve "separation of church and state", etc., ignoring that Westeros does not have that.  It's just that under the Targaryens it was the church that was basically a propaganda wing of the government, serving its interests.  The High Sparrow wants to end that, and wants to hold the aristocracy to the same rules as everyone else -- and that makes him dangerous to the entrenched interests.  It doesn't make him a saint, either, but if I were a commoner in King's Landing I'd back him over Cersei or the Tyrells every day of the week.

No doubt many would, but others want their wine and their whores including, probably, a large number of soldiers.

[Diana Berry]

Will Gendry show up in season 5?

[Winnief]

Excellent post, particularly in regards to Dany.  Dany's return to Westeros was made far less interesting by the end of A Storm of Swords because the Usurper and most of his dogs are dead.  Robert, Tywin, Clegane, Ned (don't like lumping Ned in here but he's an enemy to Dany) are all gone.  The only "dogs" still left are Jaime, who killed her father but will likely meet his fate elsewhere and Stannis, who lead the fleet that drove her and her brother off of Dragonstone.  So her "getting back what's belonged to her family" is far less interesting.  Though the Martells quest for the Iron Throne is even more uninteresting because EVERYONE who ever wronged them is dead.

 

And Stannis is more than likely to be dead too, by the time Dany gets to Westeros...really the only credible person left for her to be in conflict with might be *Jon* post the Big Reveal. 

 

And I don't know why they even bothered with the Sand Snakes except that they probably will play a role in the death of either Tommen and/or Myrcella. 

 

I really think Tyrion should have escaped KL to go find Dany, but without killing Tywin first but rather plotting to hitch his post to Dany as his means of revenge.  An intact Tyrell/Lannister coalition led by Tywin facing off against Dany and his much hated son...now that would have been a showdown for the ages!   The way things are going though, Cersei's going to destroy House Lannister long before the dragons reach the Seven Kingdoms.

 

Oh well, maybe there's some good stuff coming up with the White Walkers. 

 

I am 100% convinced that D&D had the former High Septon go through a preview version of the Walk of Shame so that they could counter allegations of sexism when Cersei goes through hers. ("It's not because she's a woman! It's because she's a sinner!")

I agree and I think that was a smart move of them.

 

Same here.  It was also good foreshadowing for the Unsullied.

[blixie]

 

Will Gendry show up in season 5?

 

Sadly I doubt it, I think they might be done with Gendry, though I feel strongly he's one of the few unequivocally good characters and the show shouldn't shed any of those. I like to think he rowed his boat all the way to Braavos, and will reconnect with Arya and shake her from her Faceless Man journey and get her ass back to Westeros for a Stark Family reunion.

[Winnief]

Personally, I prefer to believe Gendry is now working as a smith right across from the inn where Hot Pie is. 

[benteen]

Tyrion killing Tywin was a great and powerful moment though.  But yeah, Tywin's death has left a hole that can't be filled.  Seeing him brought low would have been sweet.

 

I suspect Gendry will pop up at least one more time.  I can't even begin to tell you when though.

 

About other people for Dany to deal with...there is Weirwood Bran and Bloodraven, who was a Targ bastard.  Aren't they possibly attached to The Great Other?

[Oscirus]

I suspect the big bad villains will likely go in an order somewhat like this- Boltons- Cersei-Littlefinger-Whitewalkers.

 

My wild out there theory of the day is that somehow Little finger will gain enough influence to convince Dany to marry him once she sits on the throne, thereby allowing Littlefinger to reach his ultimate goal.  Which is how he reaches his goal of becoming king.  Yea, I doubt it too, but speculating is fun.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Oscirus

[Holmbo]

The unsullied discussion for this episode is really interesting. They're getting tired of this season and are theorizing about the books. Are they as slow? Is the Sansa plot in them? Do they have as few rootable characters?

[ElizaD]

In general, I think the show right now is more grim than the books. It's stuck in The Empire Strikes Back without those hints of The Return of the Jedi that made ADWD's Northern storyline so good - horrible things were happening, but it was also clear that people were getting mad as hell and ready for a big move against the Boltons/Freys.

 

Excellent post, particularly in regards to Dany.  Dany's return to Westeros was made far less interesting by the end of A Storm of Swords because the Usurper and most of his dogs are dead.  Robert, Tywin, Clegane, Ned (don't like lumping Ned in here but he's an enemy to Dany) are all gone.  The only "dogs" still left are Jaime, who killed her father but will likely meet his fate elsewhere and Stannis, who lead the fleet that drove her and her brother off of Dragonstone.  So her "getting back what's belonged to her family" is far less interesting.  Though the Martells quest for the Iron Throne is even more uninteresting because EVERYONE who ever wronged them is dead.

 

I'll always regret that Dany didn't sail to Dorne after ACOK. Then she could have been proving her queenship on the continent she actually wants to rule. The conflict could have come from winning the trust of the Martells (Rhaegar abandoned Elia, after all, and Aerys kept her and her children as hostages) and from the effort to get the Dornish, who excel at guerrilla warfare in their own land, to commit an army to her cause. The KL characters would have had to react to news of her doings and she wouldn't have been as isolated.

[Holmbo]

In general, I think the show right now is more grim than the books. It's stuck in The Empire Strikes Back without those hints of The Return of the Jedi that made ADWD's Northern storyline so good - horrible things were happening, but it was also clear that people were getting mad as hell and ready for a big move against the Boltons/Freys.

I agree. Though I don't fault the writers for this. It make sense for them not to bring up these set ups until the season where it will actually have some pay off. They've established that the northern lords are no fan of Bolton's and that hinted at discontent in the riverlands and foreshadowing about Freys getting comeuppance but not hinted at any possible plot coming from it. I expect the build up and payoff for these plots to happen in season 6. Unless all the set up in the books were just red herrings from Martin.

[Advance35]

I expect the build up and payoff for these plots to happen in season 6. Unless all the set up in the books were just red herrings from Martin.

 

Which I could totally believe.   There is no way he addresses EVERYTHING he's set up.  There is no way that EVERYONE who deserves it get's their comeuppance and despite what many think I don't think the bitter/sweet ending means that the good people who survive will reflect on all they've lost along the way.   I think some VERY bad people will still be alive when all this is over and some good one's will have paid for the survival of civilization with their lives.

 

I honestly believe Jaimie and Brienne escape Stoneheart in some ridiculous manner and that's why the showrunners left her out of the adaptation.  And I'm glad.  This makes me question if she would have had any additional impact on the story other than hanging a bunch of Freys.

 

I agree with those that feel GRRM waited WAY to long to bring Dany to Westeros.  I can't see how that storyline can be satisfying at this point, nor do I see how anyone could be satisifed with her taking the Iron Throne.  She's in the middle of nowhere currently, she's got to get back and deal with Mereen, than she's got to likely deal with Victarion Greyjoy, UGH.  

 

I am not someone who minds the change in Sansa's storyline but I like her character in both book and show and on reflection I'm sorry Sansa is in Winterfell but only because I feel like that will soon  be the most dangerous place because of the White Walkers.   I liked her being in the Vale in the book because it's "impregnable" and it had a full army and food supplies.   This makes me question Sansa's fate even more.   If she doesn't survive I have know doubt the show will have her meet her maker the same way the book does.

 

I also really like how House Tyrell is coming apart.  Olenna looks like she could spit nails.   Interesting that per the show she has a plan to take a select few people down with her, should her House fall.  Her scene with Baelish was a highlight because it's the most we've seen her lose control.  "I should have known you were back in the Capital when everything started to go wrong."  Smart of Olenna to take precautions before her meeting with Baelish, she made arrangements just in case she meets with an "accident."   The Fall of House Stark was just something for House Tyrell to use to their advantage, it's clear they do NOT like thow that feels when it's their turn.

[BlackberryJam]

I suspect Walder Frey is still kicking and expecting a new child at the end of the series.

 

No, I don't think all the bad guys will get their due and the heroes will come out on top.

 

I also agree that Jaime and Brienne will escape LSH, but that's because I don't think Jaime is stupid enough not to realize Brienne is lying. Brienne isn't skilled in the art of deception and Jaime spent a book wandering around and getting smarter. If he doesn't know something's up, all of that is for naught. But however it goes down, it's going to feel weird since accord to Kevan, Jaime hasn't been heard from in weeks.

Considering the new Sansa chapter, and a tournament, that seems ripe for Brienne to enter the tournament in disguise (with Jaime helping somehow) and snag Sansa. It's just too good a set up not for Brienne, winner of Renly's melee, not to be in that tournament considering her unwavering commitment to save the Stark girls.

[SeanC]

Considering the new Sansa chapter, and a tournament, that seems ripe for Brienne to enter the tournament in disguise (with Jaime helping somehow) and snag Sansa. It's just too good a set up not for Brienne, winner of Renly's melee, not to be in that tournament considering her unwavering commitment to save the Stark girls.

I really don't see how that fits with how Sansa's story has been set up at all.  The Vale is her stage for learning the game of thrones, and her connection to Littlefinger is her most significant one; he's the primary antagonist of her story.

[BlackberryJam]

How does it not? Or are you extrapolating from my setup and thinking that Brienne succeeds where she has failed every single time before? 

 

Sansa is not going to spend another entire books hanging out with the Vale lords unless the series is turning into ten books instead of seven. The world is going to contract, not continue to expand.

[nksarmi]

In general, I think the show right now is more grim than the books. It's stuck in The Empire Strikes Back without those hints of The Return of the Jedi that made ADWD's Northern storyline so good - horrible things were happening, but it was also clear that people were getting mad as hell and ready for a big move against the Boltons/Freys.

 

 

I'll always regret that Dany didn't sail to Dorne after ACOK. Then she could have been proving her queenship on the continent she actually wants to rule. The conflict could have come from winning the trust of the Martells (Rhaegar abandoned Elia, after all, and Aerys kept her and her children as hostages) and from the effort to get the Dornish, who excel at guerrilla warfare in their own land, to commit an army to her cause. The KL characters would have had to react to news of her doings and she wouldn't have been as isolated.

I was just saying last night that I wish the show runners had gone all out and cut Meereen off the map.  I wish Dany had gone to Dorne and was working them in secret looking for the moment to mount an attack on King's Landing.  I would have even been ok if they changed Tyrion's plot so that he would have headed south to Dorne instead - and I would have been equally ok if Ayra would have ended up at the Wall - and been wrapped into the Sam/Gilly story - instead of the Faceless Men.

 

To me the books fail on so many levels when Dany decides to stay in Meereen and we start taking main characters off Westerous.  I wonder at times if the reason GMMR has delayed this book for so long is that he now has to start bringing people together and doesn't know how to do it.

[BlackberryJam]

To me the books fail on so many levels when Dany decides to stay in Meereen and we start taking main characters off Westerous.  I wonder at times if the reason GMMR has delayed this book for so long is that he now has to start bringing people together and doesn't know how to do it.

 

Oh yes. Dany essentially exists in a vacuum for thousands of pages, interacting with none of the other major Houses and players.

 

GRRM has taken the books on so many tangents, set up so many red herrings, that he has so much to resolve that it probably seems overwhelming. I mean, imagine the series as a big board with photos tacked up, plots with circles of photos around them and then strings of various colors connecting it all. It's a terrifying prospect.

[ElizaD]

And season 6 casting has begun! They don't use names but some roles are easy to guess. Damn, it looks like they really are committed to

Oldtown: Sam gets his entire family, not just Randyll. Does Meribald mean the Hound's return? Does Bran get a vision of little Ned, Brandon and Robert? And I really, really hope that Euron's arrival means they're spoiling at least one Bolton death this season and that's why they need a new villain.

Edited May 26, 2015 by ElizaD

[blixie]

I think the biggest problem with the story was GRRM (IMO) disastrous decision not to do the time jump. You foolishly made you core cast of heroic characters between the ages of 10-14, and now we as readers have had to wait out this maturation process, while their stories are crippled by their ages. Instead of seeing substantive instances where we see that maturation where we watch them go from children to heros, we watch them stand around and wait it out, with them all isolated and either literally or figuratively paralyzed. 

 

And since he had no plan for what they were actually doing in those years a besides aging like children do, we get to go on 1001 tangents about Oakhearts, and Quentyns, and fAegons, and fArya's, and conspiracies in Oldtown and Dorne, and Atrocities in Winterfell. God only knows why we need the damn Greyjoys.

[Danny Franks]

To me the books fail on so many levels when Dany decides to stay in Meereen and we start taking main characters off Westerous.  I wonder at times if the reason GMMR has delayed this book for so long is that he now has to start bringing people together and doesn't know how to do it.

 

I understood the idea of having Dany stay in Meereen and learn to rule, juxtaposed with Jon learning to rule in the Nights Watch. As a theme for their parallel storylines, it was serviceable. In execution, it was abysmal, on Dany's side at least. Because she learned nothing whatsoever until the final couple of chapters. All she wanted to do was chill out, fuck Daario and get other people to do all the work. Shortcuts like marrying the obviously shifty Hiz-whatever, instead of actually addressing problems.

 

I found it hilarious that GRRM talked for years about 'The Meereenese Knot', and having to untie that before he could finish the book. The assumption was that he was trying to organically have Quentyn, Tyrion and Victarion all arrive and meet Dany, while she dealt with the Yunkai and Astapor armies. And GRRM's solution was... to just not deal with it at all. Genius.

 

When I look at the books as a whole, they just appear to be a series that has completely lost its way, written by a man who is more interested in building worlds and exploring ideas than he is in actually writing and finishing a story. It reminds me very much of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series, which was actually much better planned out than ASOIAF is, yet still the author lost his way. It took his sad passing and Brandon Sanderson completing the last three books to bring the series to a conclusion that was at least satisfying, if not particularly great.

 

Also,

now they're going full Greyjoy? Oh, I'm so glad I checked out. I've never come across a group of character so loathsome and useless at the same time.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Danny Franks

[Avaleigh]

I am super happy that we're getting Randyll Tarly. I don't have any casting suggestions here. He's like Tywin-lite in some ways so I'm curious as to how they'll want to play him. 

 

Also happy to hear that we'll likely be getting Euron. I think it makes sense. 

 

I had to look up who Septon Meribald was. Good news for Brienne and Pod. 

[Cheshrkat]

In general, I think the show right now is more grim than the books. It's stuck in The Empire Strikes Back without those hints of The Return of the Jedi that made ADWD's Northern storyline so good - horrible things were happening, but it was also clear that people were getting mad as hell and ready for a big move against the Boltons/Freys.

 

 

I'll always regret that Dany didn't sail to Dorne after ACOK. Then she could have been proving her queenship on the continent she actually wants to rule. The conflict could have come from winning the trust of the Martells (Rhaegar abandoned Elia, after all, and Aerys kept her and her children as hostages) and from the effort to get the Dornish, who excel at guerrilla warfare in their own land, to commit an army to her cause. The KL characters would have had to react to news of her doings and she wouldn't have been as isolated.

 

I think Arya's story is more or less the same, but made more interesting in the books by the occasional connection to Nymeria or Arya otherwise warging into Braavos cats.

 

But in all other aspects, I agree that the books, although inclusive of just as much violence and sexual degradation, had other bright spots to provide a bit of a balance.  Jon Snow's storyline isn't all that differerent, but in the books he still had friends in Grenn and Pyp, and Satin wasn't glaring at him all day every day about the wildling issue the way Olly is - plus he had more interaction with Ghost.  I think shortchanging Ghost is a mistake.  Plus the rest of the Northern story had the bright spots you mentioned, such as Manderley and the fact that someone was clearly causing chaos in Winterfell with the deaths of the Frey boys and other of Ramsay's companions.

 

Sansa obviously is nowhere near as badly off in the Vale, even if she has more to do - and again, there are some bright spots such as her enjoying her interaction with Myranda, etc.

 

I do miss the Blackfish as well.

 

Bran's journey was pretty bleak in the books though, and (in my opinion), Dany's was just boring and Tyrion's self-pity tour was horrific, so I think Tyrion's story is much improved in the show.  And I hated the Martell and Iron Born storylines, so the omission of one of them is a huge win for show vs. books, whereas the condensing of the Dorne drama is also welcome.

[SeanC]

Regarding casting:

 

The character description for the priest sounds like a combination of the Elder Brother's personality (gruff ex-soldier) and Meribald's job description.  So that would be a merged version who rescues the Hound.  I really don't know how they're going to reintroduce that plot at this point.  It's pretty much impossible to imagine Brienne, Pod, etc. getting back involved there, from where they are now.

 

I'm guessing the warrior guy is a Dothraki khal, given he's supposed to be "mixed ethnicity".

Edited May 26, 2015 by SeanC

[Hanahope]

The unsullied discussion for this episode is really interesting.They're getting tired of this season and are theorizing about the books. Are they as slow?

 

Lol.  They have no idea.  Seriously, if they think the show is slow, they should never even start on the books, or at least until another 10 years or so from now when maybe the whole series will be finished, if we're lucky.

[Winnief]

[]The unsullied discussion for this episode is really interesting. They're getting tired of this season and are theorizing about the books. Are they as slow? Is the Sansa plot in them? Do they have as few rootable characters?

 

With the exception of Sansa, (though admittedly there's room for debate as to whether having it happen to Jeyne Poole was any better,) the sad answer is that most of the problems with this season originated with the books.  Frankly, the show's doing a heckuva lot better with Tyrion, Varys, and Jorah than ADWD did, ESPCIALLY by having Tyrion finally meet Dany.  And while Dorne's been a failure I have to give D&D credit for at least *trying* to improve it by adding Jaime and Bronn to the mix. 

 

But since D&D won't be saving all these big building climaxes for another book/season, I have to conclude the next three episodes are going to be so jam packed to make your head spin. 

 

As for casting

If they're doing Euron, then its a sure bet the Boltons die soon and so they need a new big Baddie. And Randyll Tarly can certainly offer up some competition in the Sucky Dads department.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[/spoiler

Edited May 26, 2015 by Winnief

[screamin]

How does it not? Or are you extrapolating from my setup and thinking that Brienne succeeds where she has failed every single time before? 

 

Sansa is not going to spend another entire books hanging out with the Vale lords unless the series is turning into ten books instead of seven. The world is going to contract, not continue to expand.

 

Why not? We've already been introduced to all the Vale Lords (and now Harry) so it's not like the Vale stage needs to expand any further. And the Vale is positioned to be the next seat of power - the breadbasket for Westeros, and the only land in Westeros (except Dorne) with armies still undecimated by war and spoiling for a fight. Everyone of any consequence in Westeros will be coming to the Vale for food and help...why in the world would LF need to leave?

[Holmbo]

Great news about the casting! :)
Are we allowed to discuss it here? I keep forgetting the rules. I'll put it under spoiler tag for now.

I was thinking the Priest could be Damphair. But then I looked up the meaning  salt-of-the-earth man and I guess it has to be Meribald. Does this mean Hound returning? Cleganebowl confirmed get hype! ;)
I'm really excited by Oldtown being in the show. The possible plans of the Maesters really intrigue me and I'm glad to see this seems to be important enough for the end game to include in the show. 
Also really excited about Randyl Tarly casting. I hope they can make him distinctive from all the other abusive fathers in this story. God knows there's been a lot of them.

Edit I also agree with the hopes that since they're introducing Euron they can kill of Ramsay this season. They've killed of good characters before their time in the show. Why not villains. I don't know how likely this hope is though.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Holmbo

[Athena]

There's an S6 Casting & Info thread.

 

I really don't want the Greyjoy stuff.

[Winnief]

Since some of the biggest problems with this season are related to traps set by the slow pace of the last two books, ironically that means Season 6 may well be an improvement since they won't be bound by the books anymore.  Dany WILL be coming to Westeros, and all Seven Hells will be breaking out at the Wall, not to mention

 

Ironborn in the Reach. I think they decided to do Sam's whole family because messed up family dynamics have always been one of the show's specialties.

 

They won't be having Dany go on a mystical voyage through the Dothraki sea or fAegon which should simplify matters considerably.  And since they're condensing the Vale, we're going to start getting some Stark reunions.  In fact that's a BIG reason I think Sansa's at WF now-especially since they want her with Jon after the Big Reveal.  He's gonna need someone who knows the Players Down South on his side. 

[The Mormegil]

Considering the new Sansa chapter, and a tournament, that seems ripe for Brienne to enter the tournament in disguise (with Jaime helping somehow) and snag Sansa. It's just too good a set up not for Brienne, winner of Renly's melee, not to be in that tournament considering her unwavering commitment to save the Stark girls.

 

Isn't the Vale pretty much cut off from the rest of the 7Ks due to the onset of Winter unless you go by Ship (Arya and the Hound can't get into it anyway) so I can't see Brienne/Jaime making it in.

[Rockstar99435]

I doubt most of those fans would have ever changed their opinion of him anyway, as it doesn't matter what Theon went through, they saw him as a joke and as deserving whatever he got 

 

I'm one of those fans. Theon was a rapist and a murderer and I'm glad that if he lives, he'll never be able to hurt another peasant girl again. Anytime I start to feel sorry for him, I remember that girl on the boat and how Theon responded to her cries that her father would kill her for being whore with "I didn't pay you" and then flipping her over so he could sodomize her. 

 

To me, Theon being turned into Reek is the proof that Ramsey's comment "If you think there's a happy ending, you're wrong" is wrong. One of the things Ioved about the 5th book is that we do start to see the bad guys get punished. Theon got his punishment almost immediately in an earlier book and he lost his weapon of rape and his ability to be an archer. Jaime was punished by the loss of his hand. And by the end of the 5th book, Cersei gets arrested and has to do the walk. The Freys are being taken out by Lady Stoneheart, Freypies, and Winterfell ghosts. Arya's direwolf is gathering wolves and taking out Freys, Lannisters, and random rapists. You also have the Brothers without Banners and Coldhands bringing justice for some of the small folk. Justice sometimes takes it's time, but everyone eventually gets what they deserve. So the Boltons may still be alive for now, but I'm positive they won't make it to the very end. 

Edited May 26, 2015 by Rockstar99435

[nksarmi]

Lol.  They have no idea.  Seriously, if they think the show is slow, they should never even start on the books, or at least until another 10 years or so from now when maybe the whole series will be finished, if we're lucky.

LOL my fiancé has been committing on how slow this season is until the last episode where things finally picked up a bit.  I keep saying you have NO idea.

[Pete Martell]

I'm one of those fans. Theon was a rapist and a murderer and I'm glad that if he lives, he'll never be able to hurt another peasant girl again. Anytime I start to feel sorry for him, I remember that girl on the boat and how Theon responded to her cries that her father would kill her for being whore with "I didn't pay you" and then flipping her over so he could sodomize her. 

 

This is one of the book vs show things that gets in my way. I know he raped a woman in the books, but to me, the scene with the captain's daughter wasn't written as rape (if that was the intention then I apologize as I haven't read any interviews on the scene, I don't know what the idea of it was), so when I see fans (I don't mean you) exult in a rapist and murderer sexually assaulting him, castrating him, and torturing him, and saying they can't wait for Sansa to also rape him, torture him, and murder him, it just makes me feel queasy.

 

What bothers me more is probably that a lot of this bloodlust isn't even based on the kids he killed, it's based on him betraying the Starks. And it tends to involve some sort of fanon world where Theon frolicked around Winterfell with the family, happy and full of life and love, and in the newest fanon, braiding Sansa's hair and holding her hand, until one day he abruptly decided to betray them all. 

 

There have been so many terrible things done by so many people on this show that I just can't care anymore about how he needs to eternally pay, and it's unfortunate to me that this story has been so derailed by the show that what could have been a tale about him breaking away and starting to accept who he is and what he's done to people is instead yet another excuse for fans to see him as the evilest of evil betrayers, and wish for his slow death even as characters like Jaime are presented as long-suffering dads and noble heroes, or characters like Ramsay who get a pass because they have hot bodies on display and are supposed to be "love to hate."

 

Instead of this story being about Sansa's own voice and journey, or, taking that away, even about what Ramsay has done to Sansa, it's now about some "kill Bill" retread where people need to make Arya-style lists of Theon, Ramsay, Roose, and whoever else Sansa is supposed to torture and kill. It's just made her a generic revengebot, and I don't care about seeing more of that after already being bored as hell with 5 years of Arya playing the name game. I'm sure I should go "girl power!" if or when Brienne rescues Sansa, and hope they kill everybody, but I just find myself wondering why women need to be limited to this role in the first place.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Pete Martell

[DigitalCount]

Wait, I guess I've forgotten--when did Theon rape someone?

EDIT: I guess it's a book thing. Lol, have I said that it's been a while since I read the books? I never really got that negative a vibe from him with that girl on the ship, but maybe she didn't have a choice in the book?

Edited May 26, 2015 by DigitalCount

[nksarmi]

There's an S6 Casting & Info thread.

 

I really don't want the Greyjoy stuff.

Actually, I'm good with some of it - but I only wan Euron as a villain - please no Victorian seeking out Dany plot.  And I want the Queenmoot to crown Yara? (I keep getting her name wrong) so we can have a female head of House on the show. And let me just say I was pissed to the nth degree she didn't win in the books.

Edited May 26, 2015 by nksarmi

[Pete Martell]

Wait, I guess I've forgotten--when did Theon rape someone?

EDIT: I guess it's a book thing. Lol, have I said that it's been a while since I read the books? I never really got that negative a vibe from him with that girl on the ship, but maybe she didn't have a choice in the book?

 

I think they meant the captain's daughter scene. I did not see that as a rape scene, but that's just my opinion, and I don't know what the intent of the scene was. 

 

In the book, it was heavily implied that he raped Kyra toward the end of his stay at Winterfell (late season 2 timeline - Kyra wasn't really in the show).

Edited May 26, 2015 by Pete Martell

[nksarmi]

I also have to add my approval for the idea that if Euron Greyjoy is added and attacks the Reach, then I am hoping that does mean we might get the death of either Roose and/or Ramsey.  At this point, I am fascinated with what comes next at Winterfell.  Win or lose, I hope we get the battle this season.  I think given the pieces and clues they have given us so far that we could get something like this....

 

Mel convinced Stannis' wife to agree to burn Shirleen so Stannis intervenes and sends his daughter away with Davos and they end up wherever Rickon is by next season.  The casting that people think could be a Ned/Robert flashback - I am hoping is actually Rickon and some playmates.

 

Stannis goes to war with the Boltons and they are not smart enough to stay in and take the siege or can't because of Winter - I am hoping the result of this is at least mixed.... like Stannis losses but Roose dies or vice versa Roose losses but Stannis dies. 

 

I am desperately hoping that rather than escaping Winterfell, events play out so that Sansa can stay in Winterfell.  Now that she is in her home and they've made such a big deal about how this is HER home and everyone else are the ones who don't belong - I don't want her to have to leave and run again.  They have put a Stark back in Winterfell and I want it to be everyone else who has to run - I don't care how long it takes.

 

Since I am sure Brie will play some part in the end, maybe she is the one who kills Ramsey after Roose is already dead.  Then I am hoping Theon has already revealed that her brothers live so Sansa asks Brie to find them and she and Pod can end up on the same path as Davos and Shirleen. 

 

I just know that when this all shakes out at the end of this season, I want Sansa ruling Winterfell. I am hoping that when Littlefinger arrives to try to take that from her, she tells him to f-off.

[Rockstar99435]

Wait, I guess I've forgotten--when did Theon rape someone?

EDIT: I guess it's a book thing. Lol, have I said that it's been a while since I read the books? I never really got that negative a vibe from him with that girl on the ship, but maybe she didn't have a choice in the book?

 

I don't think the peasant women can say no to the Lords about sex. (For that matter, I don't think the peasant men can say no to the Lords about sex.) The poor have to do whatever the Lords command of them and they aren't allowed to defend themselves. (Micah and Lady both died back in S1 for that).

 

The first time Theon "meets" his sister, he fondles her because he doesn't realize she's not a peasant. Asha/Yara is pretending to be a poor woman in order to learn what kind of a man Theon is. As it turns out, Theon is the kind of man who sexually assaults poor women because he can. Back when Theon was a lord, he took what he wanted without caring at all about the people he hurt because he had power over them and didn't see them as people. Now, he's being punished and dehumanized by someone who has power over him and doesn't see him as a person. It's fitting.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Rockstar99435

[elzin]

I hate Theon, but I think his arc is important to recognize things within yourself. After he killed those boys, you think "Nothing can happen to him that would be punishment enough."

 

And then he becomes Reek and you have to examine if what happens to him is a fitting punishment or too far. Or maybe not enough for some people. And it's thematically similar to Lady Stoneheart. We want so badly someone to come in and start kicking ass on Stark behalf, and we certainly get that. Both storylines are perfect examples of "be careful what you wish for because you just might get it." I know the show even at its best couldn't address all these details and finer point, but it is one of its greatest failings that they're missing from this craptacular season. It feels like a series of events, and these two books were not about WHAT happened but why and how. And yes, it would have been a huge challenge to translate that to screen effectively, but I'd rather have gotten a swing and a miss than what we've gotten instead.

[Pete Martell]

The first time Theon "meets" his sister, he fondles her because he doesn't realize she's not a peasant. Asha/Yara is pretending to be a poor woman in order to learn what kind of a man Theon is. As it turns out, Theon is the kind of man who sexually assaults poor women because he can. 

 

This is another instance where I wonder if there was a difference in the books. I can't really remember. In the show, I felt like they played it as a mutual flirtation, to amp up the "shock" when we learned she was his sister. 

I hate Theon, but I think his arc is important to recognize things within yourself. After he killed those boys, you think "Nothing can happen to him that would be punishment enough."

 

And then he becomes Reek and you have to examine if what happens to him is a fitting punishment or too far. Or maybe not enough for some people. And it's thematically similar to Lady Stoneheart. We want so badly someone to come in and start kicking ass on Stark behalf, and we certainly get that. Both storylines are perfect examples of "be careful what you wish for because you just might get it." I know the show even at its best couldn't address all these details and finer point, but it is one of its greatest failings that they're missing from this craptacular season. It feels like a series of events, and these two books were not about WHAT happened but why and how. And yes, it would have been a huge challenge to translate that to screen effectively, but I'd rather have gotten a swing and a miss than what we've gotten instead.

 

I tend to wonder if the show feels they are somehow addressing criticism of misogyny by doing this story in a way where you can't say, "It's all about Theon!!!" The problem is even if Sansa does become "strong" through this, it's only because she had to be made a passive victim for 3/4 of the season and in last week's episode lose any intelligence or survival skills she ever had, so was it worth this supposed "strength"?

 

We can say yay, great, it's not about Theon anymore, but as far as I can see, it's no longer about anything at all. It's just time-filling, breathtakingly cynical torture porn.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Pete Martell

[Winnief]

Amanda Marcotte's take on the Sansa storyline.

 

 

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/sansa-stark-proves-the-critics-wrong-on-game-of-thrones/

 

Not sure I agree with her, but its an interesting counter perspective so I brought the link.