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S04.E09: Dark Waters

FormerMod-a1

By FormerMod-a1
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Soulfire
Soulfire

If you think I'm sorry for posting multiple sets from the same scene you're wrong.

KirkB
KirkB

I told you guys, you need to charge the Laurel-bot fully before using the scream or it just drains the battery.

dtissagirl
dtissagirl

I'm kinda annoyed at myself that Oliver was adorable enough, and O/F were legit incredible, that I'm willing to handwave the lying liar who lies part.  

quarks

quarks

Even a great episode, though, has bad things.  And Laurel.

 

Bad things:

 

1. Arrow, you cannot show us an incoming shark, complete with frightening music, and then NOT SHOW AN OLIVER/FAKE PLASTIC PROP SHARK FIGHT. It's wrong. It's 20,000 kinds of wrong. What was that?

 

2. Oliver, you did quite a lot to redeem yourself this episode, but hiding your engagement ring in the Xmas lights just lost you about ten thousand points. No wonder you're so terrible with hiding your secret identity and with hiding the entrances to your not very secret Arrow cave.

 

3. Does anyone on Arrow or Flash spend time thinking about the fact that their prisoners must at least occasionally need to use a bathroom?

 

4. Wasn't the entire point of getting that campaign office (apart from getting to reuse a set) to give Oliver access to a secret entrance inside the campaign office so he didn't have to run out of the campaign office and incidentally look exactly like a guy running away from a crime scene?

 

5. Speaking of sets, AUUGH, Arrow, Flash. Here's a thought: can you at least SPACE OUT your reuse of each others sets a bit longer? (I'm going to start crying when Legends of Tomorrow joins us since they film in the same location. I know it.)

 

6. On a much more serious note - the gas chambers were bad enough, but the continued references to Hanukkah and Donna Smoak wearing a Hanukkah hat meant that the Arrow producers were well aware of this.  I know they were trying to hammer in the idea that DAMIEN DARHK IS REALLY EVIL but you know, I kinda figured that out when he had his helicopter shoot up lots of adorable kids on the beach.  

 

And now, Laurel:

 

When I mentioned how frustrating this show can be, this is what I'm talking about: this episode showed that no, Laurel does not have to be written badly all the time. She can still be acted badly - some of Katie Cassidy's line readings were off, and she and Amell still have difficulties working together. But given the various anvils all over the script that either she or Lance would be dead by the end of the season, I can see her struggling with that. But she can be written to have an actual role in the plot and with helping Oliver's character development.   I even liked two of her scenes - the one where she reminded Oliver that his teammates made their own choices -- needed so that he could believe that when Felicity repeated the same thing, and the one with her father, as anvilistic as that one seemed to be. Also, she looked particularly gorgeous in two different scenes - by the beach, and in the proposal scene.  And for the first time in several episodes, her Canary Cry made sense, and she got to be a genuine hero.

 

Having said all this, with the exception of the one scene where she shattered the gas chamber glass, it was astonishing how, in Laurel's most heroic episode yet, she still managed to fail all over and/or be marginalized in nearly every part of it. It's like a curse.

 

Number of times Laurel fails as an attorney 2,:  1, For the love of )(*)(&)( with the hotline, Laurel, you should be trained at how to take evidence statements by now. 2,  Why, exactly, is an ADA letting Team Arrow keep a prisoner in the Arrow Cave - especially since this prisoner appears to have limited access to a bathroom?

 

(There's a simple solution to this - have Laurel quit the DA's office. She hasn't been in it for episodes and her profession hasn't been mentioned either. This was a character fail from the beginning, so dropping it is not a bad plan.)

 

Number of times Laurel fails as a vigilante, 7: 1, not joining Oliver during his attack all the ghosts rampage post the kidnapping, 2, not providing Oliver with any useful information about the ghosts or where Diggle, Thea and Felicity were, forcing Malcolm of all people to come to the rescue, 3, not realizing that her own father has been working for Darhk, 4, not guessing that her father could be a double agent with Darhk, 5, needing to team up with Ra's Al Ghul in order to save someone, 6 (my favorite) while trying to get Diggle, Thea and Felicity out, using the Canary Cry on a small group of ghosts - managing to knock out her teammates temporarily and put them in pain, but doing zilch to the ghosts, 7) needing to get rescued by her father, a cop, like that is is the direct opposite of vigilanting, Laurel.

 

Number of times Laurel fails as a human being, 1: chirping "I helped too!" at Oliver as they returned to the Arrow Cave, like, uh, Laurel, apart from shattering the glass, you were the least useful person on the rescue mission. Dial it back a little.

 

Number of negative comments on the Oliver/Laurel relationship, 2: It's been awhile since I looked at this, but Damien Darhk had the biggest one we've had since Laurel told Oliver that she couldn't believe she'd ever been in love with him: For all of Alex's earlier protests that keeping his friendship with Laurel would bring Oliver negative publicity, Darhk didn't once consider kidnapping Laurel or bringing her in, making it clear that although she might be on Team Arrow, she's no longer part of Oliver's inner circle. 2) This is, again, more of an absence within the show comment - but although the Black Canary did fight next to the Green Arrow in this episode, she fought next to Malcolm, not Oliver.

 

In addition, we found out this episode that not only is Team Arrow not keeping Laurel up to date with important things like, you know, who is and who isn't working for Damien Darhk, Quentin isn't even bothering to fill her in on his love life. Several scenes showed that she was just hanging in the Arrow Cave, still outside the main action. Laurel did - finally, after three seasons and nine episodes - get to be a friend to Oliver.

 

It's an improvement, but she still feels on the edges of this show.

  • Love 19
WaitandHope

WaitandHope

(edited)

So the gas chambers made me uncomfortable and so did all the terrorism talk and the discussion about not letting the terrorists win. Whew. That's some uncomfortable timing for a fantasy show.

I bet there was a least a discussion at the network level of whether this was the right week for this episode. I'm glad they aired it. Still, the show lacked it's usual escapism factor.

In spite of my vague discomfort, I did adore the olicity! I pretty much loved all the character and plot -- except the time-sucking, momentum-stealing flashbacks.

Quarks - the gauntlet has been thrown this week. Laurel did NOT fail this week. She was actually kinda awesome...

And I did not watch the last 30 seconds. My kids watch with me (thanks Flash!). And I thought it would be way too tough for them to watch Felicity hurt, so I just acted like the TV cut off. The spoiler discussion basically had the whole thing plotted out, so I knew when to fake a TV malfunction. I truly can't believe it worked with the 10 YO!

ETA. quarks posted right before I wrote this. I should have never doubted you. Hangs head in shame for ever doubting quarks.

Edited by WaitandHope
statsgirl

statsgirl

Public proposals:  permissible only when you already know the answer is going to be 'yes'.

 

I also loved Lil' 'Licity... until she was written as gaping at the RC Chopper of Doom. Then again, she got to be tackled by Oliver, which isn't entirely a horrid experience. Painful, possibly, but the child is alive to complain. And be recruited to Palmer Tech's STEM initiative for girls. *g*

 

Felicity Smoak:  educating girls in science everywhere.

Biggest anvil for Laurel's death was her telling Oliver not to blame himself for whatever was happening...

 

Irony -- just when they show they really know how to write Laurel right, she's a grave possibility.

  • Love 3
wonderwall

wonderwall

Irony -- just when they show they really know how to write Laurel right, she's a grave possibility.

 

Tbh she's still the most inconsequential group member. She was only relevant this episode because everyone else was trapped. I still don't understand Laurel's importance and I don't think I ever really will. In the end if they keep writing her like they did this episode she'll just be that extra body in the field... A more formidable fighter, but still an extra body. 

Out of everything though, I'm glad badass Oliver is back. I was so tired of the show neutering him just for the sake of the larger team. I don't need him to stand on the sideline while LL/TQ do all the work. I'd much rather see him fighting in the field. 

  • Love 14
GirlvsTV

GirlvsTV

So the gas chambers made me uncomfortable and so did all the terrorism talk and the discussion about not letting the terrorists win. Whew. That's some uncomfortable timing for a fantasy show.

I bet there was a least a discussion at the network level of whether this was the right week for this episode. I'm glad they aired it. Still, the show lacked it's usual escapism factor.

All of this, plus the multiple scenes of guns being fired into large crowds of people had me cringing. It's so sad, because I remember when Columbine (I think it was Columbine?) happened Buffy was on the air and opted not to broadcast an episode abt school violence for over a month or more after it happened. And they postponed the finale that year, which had a giant snake monster attack graduation, for several weeks too. More recently I think Supergirl waited . . . a week? Ugh it's depressing.

Gonna go watch Oliver propose again.

benteen

benteen

(edited)

As long as that ending doesn’t hold up, I thought that was an excellent episode.

 

I have to say, I loved Team Arrow doing some community service in the beginning of the episode.

 

Neal McDonough continues to be an absolute steal for this show.

 

The Andy storyline has been great material for the Diggle character and him calling Andy Dhark’s bitch was a highlight.

Loved Malcolm helping the team and that’s how gloriously crazy this show has become.

 

Definitely liked the use of Little Drummer Boy (that was the song, right?) and the contrast with the shooting and Dhark with his family.  I forgot that Dhark said he had a daughter.

 

Hell, even Laurel was used well here and I really liked her scenes with her father.

 

This episode had its flaws with the uncomfortable (to say the least) Nazi references, the pointless flashback and Lil Felicity gawping as a killer drone like an idiot.  But otherwise, a really strong episode.

Edited by benteen
  • Love 5
Chaser

Chaser

Oh Laurel. 

 

I thought they separated her from Diggle/Felicity/Thea for two reasons: 1) Because the other three are family to Oliver and Laurel was friend zoned pretty hardcore. 2) Her primary function is BC on the show so Bark Collar.

 

I think the above are true but I would also add a third usage. Loose ends. They totally put a bow on the Lance family. Outside of Sara, Laurel had Lance and the secret he was keeping from her. That is all cleared up now. Her and Lance bonded with all the death anvils. Much like the opener, they didn't establish a single storyline for Laurel. 

 

Felicity got shot. Diggle has his brother. Thea has whatever is going on with DD and whammy he put on her.

  • Love 12
pivot

pivot

  

I know I should just avoid commenting, but damn, KC has one emotion, one stance, and it's angry, arms crossed. It's distractingly bad. Even her pep talks are full of irritation. That scream still looks absolutely ridiculous. Every single time. And why does everyone stop what they're doing when she screams? Whatever, I'll never get it, and I'll never appreciate it.

 

Man, every time KC spoke, she just ruined the scene. She was painful tonight even worse than normal.

Loved all the Donna/Felicity and Olicity interaction. And I loved the Hanukah (sp?) moments in the show. I was even ok with the proposal. I think the fact that Felicity figured out Oliver was going to propose months ago made it better. Plus, her storming off to confront him about it right away. Felicity does hate secrets.

The limo scene was surprisingly well done. The gas chamber was in poor taste. I did love seeing Felicity kick some ass after they got out. Turns out EBR can swing a weapon much more convincingly than KC.

  • Love 10
SleepDeprived

SleepDeprived

Anyone else feel like Damien's family/home were stuck in a time warp or something? It felt so old fashioned.

 

I had the same thought. Is that what's in the box? The one that Damien was so gleeful to have finally acquired and wanted to use with the dark star matter particles H.I.V.E. got from Palmer's suit? Does the box allow Damien to build/concoct reality from his memories so he can have his perfect future after he destroys Star City to the ground? Is that part of what Phase 4 of H.I.V.E.'s plan is--to build a Utopian society with the aid of their mystic voodoo, air-cleansing algae, and cornfields?

 

If so, this is very good motivation for a bad guy. Yes to lofty Evil Overload goals, Darhk! Show Slade, fake Ra's al Ghul, and Merlyn what actual bad guys should strive for!

  • Love 9
ottoDbusdriver

ottoDbusdriver

And I loved all of it (minus the flashbacks and the terrible Holocaust reference).

 

The flashbacks were pretty bad and seemed to be completely unrelated to the story in the present.

 

You just saw the shark swimming towards him.  I don't remember seeing him get bitten.

 

Is it wrong that I was hoping that that shark had a Dharma Initiative logo on the tail ?

 

Then again, for a moment there I thought maybe the shark was sent by HIVE via some orders sent back through time to kill Ollie -- we'll just call him Damian Sharhk.

 

And for good measure, there was absolutely no reference at all to anyone Hawk-related or Vandal Savage in the entire episode -- almost like it never happened at all.

 

And what was with Quentin blabbering about he didn't know what he would do if he lost Laurel -- because I think we do know what would happen if she didn't come back from a mission based on what happened after Sara died.  But dude, you've got two daughters once again, might want to remember that.

 

I like Thea's fighting moves tonight, lots of high spinning kicks.

  • Love 6
BkWurm1

BkWurm1

About the flashback, is it just me or did that map/blueprint/whatever look awfully crisp for being underwater in a leaky container for a bit over a year? Just me? Okay

 

.

I swear the first map he was looking at was a restaurant placemat. 

 

The flashback was particularly bad.  So the reason that Oliver needed Poppy was because she used to be a scuba instructor?  WTF?  I mean, he wasn’t even using any gear.  What could she have told him that was so helpful?  How to turn on the lights inside a freighter that’s been capsized for a year? 

 

And that shark?  I burst out laughing when it swam on scene.  It was so silly, as was the CGI swimming.  Come on, why waste money on that.  Stick him underwater with a camera and do a close up.  We don’t need to see the ship. Or him swimming to it.

 

Another pet peeve.  He’s about to do his dive and yet you could clearly see that had they just walked to the other end of the beach, then he would have been right next to the freighter.  Instead he had to swim like a couple football field lengths giving Jaws Jr a chance to get a taste of that. 

 

 

Number of times Laurel fails as a human being, 1: chirping "I helped too!" at Oliver as they returned to the Arrow Cave, like, uh, Laurel, apart from shattering the glass, you were the least useful person on the rescue mission. Dial it back a little.

 

Curse you for making me point it out, but she may have done the least but her least was the most crucial point in Thea, Diggle and Felicity not dying in their gas chamber. 

I have to say, I loved Team Arrow doing some community service in the beginning of the episode.

 

And not one of them actually picking up a piece of trash.

 

 

 

tumblr_nz4fsdUjb71r74nq4o5_500.gif

 

Felicity's super power is that she may be dying, but her glasses always stay on perfectly. 

 

If she does have a spinal injury I guess we can blame Oliver for dragging her out of the car with no back support. 

I know "BM" means Baby Mama, but reading these quotes out of context makes me think of the other meaning of "BM" and Oliver and Felicity breaking up because of it. I am having an inappropriate bathroom humor moment. 

:D One of the reasons she will never earn a name.

 

Well, that Limo Driver's family is gonna have a sad Christmas.  Maybe that's the grave Oliver is visiting.

 

Limo Driver: 1986-2015  RIP

 

And all Diggle's Marine buddies.  Yikes.  How exactly did they not have the police in on multiple homicides and kidnapping with that many witnesses?

 

I'm just gazing at all the Olicity gifs and I noticed Laurel... WHY OH WHY DOES SHE SHUT DOWN LIKE THAT AND NOT MOVE?! It's not natural! She looks like something out of Madame Tussauds.

 

tumblr_nz4hyhMxi61rge6ixo3_500.gif

Ha, ha, ha!  The robot powering down. 

  • Love 10
inconstancy

inconstancy

My head says there is no way Felicity would be killed off, but everything else is crying.

 

I teared up at the proposal. The music in that scene was really beautiful (I think it was a gentler version of the Oliver/Felicity theme?) and Thea's huge, scrunched-up grin was so cute. I'm still mad about last week's episode, but maybe I can convince myself for a while that the crossover never happened.

 

Speaking of cute, there was a lot of it in this episode. Donna's blue hat! Felicity sliding on the floor when she ran back to see why Donna was screaming! Mini!Felicity! Oliver's expression when Felicity was babbling!

 

I usually don't notice Laurel's angry, folded arms stance, which gets pointed out every week in these episode threads, but it was all I could see in the scene with her and Oliver at the lair. It was so odd, especially paired with how indifferent she seemed about the fact that three of her supposed friends had been taken by DD. But otherwise, she was okay this episode.

 

Please, please, do not let DD be motivated in his evilness because of something to do with his family. I like him being evil just because.

 

I accidentally watched the beginning of the first flashback and completely blanked on who the woman with Oliver was and what was going on. Then I remembered I haven't watched any flashbacks in ages and went back to skipping them. Why are they still a thing?

 

Loved this episode! Let's never let MG write an episode again and just stick with WM and BS.

  • Love 8
paigow

paigow

Nazis are Hollywood's go-to heinous villains...Casablanca, The Sound of Music, Indiana Jones, Captain America, X-Men, to more serious fare such as Judgement at Nuremburg, Sophie's Choice, Schindler's List, Band of Brothers. They are also an example of insidious evil hidden by a veneer of democracy - e.g. Trump and his proposed Muslim "Solution" - and perceived public benefit. Millenials need to learn about yesterday's Nazis and the Holocaust, so they can recognize the dangerous patterns happening today.

  • Love 3
statsgirl

statsgirl

So basically we can blame DD's use of Nazi-related themes being a result of the limited education in schools these days?  Maybe a Spanish Inquisition theme would have been more apt.

 

Quintin pulling the gun on Malcolm...is this the first time he's seen him since the first season?

Yes. Malcolm pointed out that he wasn't as dead as Quentin thought he was.

  • Love 2
KirkB

KirkB

I think I've mentioned the fact I hate the flashbacks before, but they seemed particularly intrusive this episode, cutting away from scenes I would actually have rather seen keep going to watch Oliver and what's her name on Flashback Island.

 

I actually think Felicity being shot lessens the likelihood of her being the one in the grave. I could be wrong, of course. But I have never really thought it was her. Barry would never have been late to Felicity's funeral, even if he had to run out on Zoom to get there.

 

I was amazed that the Canary Cry actually served a purpose, for perhaps the first time since Cisco built the damn thing. Though what I don't understand is if she can crank it up to break glass from across the room, how come it rarely ever seems to affect people?

 

I like the idea they don't seem to be making Andy a good guy having been brain washed but a bad guy Diggle didn't really know. I mean, that would hurt and it sucks to see John suffering, but it makes for interesting viewing.

 

NM is not quite as much fun to watch as Mark Hamill's Trickster, but is definitely a close second, and damn if he isn't the best evil guy on Arrow. Everyone talked about how scary Ra's al Ghul was and when he finally showed up he was pretty much a joke. But Ra's talked about how bad Dark was and sure enough he is a cackling, moustache twirling supervillain.

 

Malcolm isn't quite as evil but Barrowman makes the screen light up. If he and Hamill every did a scene together I think the show would explode.

 

Ra's was supposed to be a couple hundred years old, right? Maybe Dark is too. He could have actually BEEN a Nazi. Was it inappropriate? Maybe, but he's a bad guy so I think that was kind of the point.

  • Love 10

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