S02.E10: Et Tu, Brute?

[TobinAlbers]

On the train that it wasn't Anika but the City Hall attorney he banged first season and blackmailed this season as a 'Chickens coming home to roost' lesson Andre has to learn. Just because you turned a corner back to good doesn't mean the consequences of the bad still can't find you. Having said that, losing their baby that way would be (and let's be honest is gonna happen because girl went splat right on top of her belly) is just brutal for both Rhonda and Andre. I hope this doesn't break them up but child losses often do end relationships. The other thing is that I thought Anika was the danger, but I can see a post lost baby Rhonda becoming obsessed with Anika's Lyon baby and trying to take it from her to replace the one she lost. I hope they don't make them both nuts, but soaps often have women go baby rabies crazy as a 'storyline'.

 

As good as T&T were in their scene in the aftermath of the loss of Empire, I just could not with Lucious' crying and whining. For one thing, he deserved to get kicked in the teeth and balls after all the crap he's done. For another thing, I thought Lucious was made of sterner stuff. The man was acting like a first class wuss and like this was the first time he's ever been set back. This man wheeled, dealed, killed, lied, and did a lot of other heinous stuff to climb his way to the top and when someone knocks him out of his chair he starts crying? Did he forget how to get back up? How to fight?  JR Ewing never cried like a wuss when he got set back. He got fired up. He got ruthless. He came back bigger, badder, and stronger than ever and cackled with glee as he sent his rivals packing. What happened to the Lucious who shot Bunky point blank in the face to protect what was his? Who when he got arrested at the end of S1 said 'Game on, bitches'? I just didn't get why he went immediately to all is lost. Andre and Jamal took the news like men. Lucious, not so much.

 

I was waiting for Hakeem to whine to the TV screen when they announced his ASA nominations 'My name's Hakeem. HAKEEM! Stop saying Hakeem Lyon!'  His flipping on his dad was really a tense moment as I felt it could've gone either way, but yeah, after getting all the flashbacks to what Lucious has done to him over the season, it was a no brainer he'd side with Team Camilla.

 

Speaking of Camilla, I just about died at Hakeem's gulping when he opens the door to find her on the doorstep and then later the look on his face when she's grabbing him by the crotch. He seriously looked like he was a second away from exploding in anticipation.

 

Cookie's dress at the prison was to die for. She wore the hell out of it.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

On Empire, Every Day Is Family Day
In Empire's winter finale, the Lyons come together and fall apart.

[SimoneS]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

On Empire, Every Day Is Family Day

 

 

I was enjoying this post until I came upon "Thirsty gives Edna "good, but not $10 million good" head in the elevator." What? A man going down on a woman called, "cunninglus" not "head."

Edited December 3, 2015 by SimoneS

[Ms Blue Jay]

Who is the hot white guy in the boardroom?  I never watch this show closely enough.  Also I feel dirty things about Hakeem too.  I went to check Wikipedia to see if he was legal  

 

I appreciated the whole back and forth between Skye and Charlemagne.  When he asked if she was black, I was like, "dude, you look like you're going into MIchael Jackson territory."  I'm old and I don't get this, "you're not black your're mixed" stuff.  Shit was so much simpler in the 70's; if a person was mixed and they said they were black, everybody would be like, "okay."  Now it seems that unless you're the color of LeVar Burton, you're not "truly" black.

 

Well we don't know how Skye acts in the public eye.  I never thought this was about her skin colour shade.  I thought it was about how she acts.  Maybe she acts like Vin Diesel and people are annoyed by it.  I don't know.  I think it's weird that I've seen Rashida Jones in like 5-6 projects and you never ever get to see what her character's parents look like.  

 

I hate how they ruined Anika's character :(  Even if she didn't do the stair-pushing, I mean.... shit is going whackly for her so far.  

 

I think Camilla really does love Hakeem.  I have zero idea what Hakeem thinks or feels though, because Yaz is so limited as an actor (but so attractive and swaggy though.)  Isn't this leading to Camilla giving the company over to Hakeem?  Isn't this all painfully obvious, or am I wrong here?  Mimi already signed it over to her.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Ms Blue Jay

[Badsamaritan]

The way they treat women on this supposedly "progressive" show is horrible. The very message that it's better to be trashy Cookie than well-educated reasonable female (they get rid of most of them by now) is just unbearable.

Lots of well-educated, reasonable female characters already exist on other shows. I don't know of any other character quite like Cookie on any other show I watch. She is educated, got her diploma from the School of Hard Knocks. Just because Anika is from wealth doesn't mean she can't get gully. That's how a lot of wealthy people got wealthy, heh. I've never forgiven BBK for drugging Courtney Love's character. Dosing a recovering addict? That's...pretty fucking low. I put nothing above ANY of these characters anymore. This is not that type of party.

If I'm not mistaken, there was a scene of BBK with several pregnancy tests on the counter in her bathroom. I didn't imagine that, did I? If true, she's pretty sure lol. Anika has a jealous nature, she becomes arrogant when threatened. And Lu really screwed with her emotions, and then Hakeem basically blew her off for another chick. There's another blow to the old self-esteem, courtesy of the Lyon men. And then on top of THAT, Rhonda is now Mary to Andre's Joseph, about to deliver unto Lucious Tha God, his second chance. Anika is not dumb, she knows first born matters to Lu, and here Rhonda is, nestled in the bosom of Empire, and she can't get in the door. I'm just saying, people be tripping.

Maybe Mimi and Camilla already knew each other, were friends, and she really did help her. So to repay Camilla, she helped with this plot. Mimi was getting paid and returning a favor, win/win.

Lu's arrogance kept him from pressing harder to get votes. It's also why he haz a sad. He never expected to really lose. It's why he fittin to compete with his own damn son for a trophy. He meant every word Mimi recorded.

[represent]

You know, I do think it was Thirsty's character who pushed Rhonda. IMO the person is walking just like him and like a man period. I know Anika is nuts but would that put a manly bounce in her step?

 

But why would he do that?  I remember he and Andre had words and that Andre made it clear he doesn't trust him, but to push his pregnant wife down the stairs?

 

Is he hoping this will drive Andre crazy? 

[CaughtOnTape]

See, I believe Lee Daniels is trying to methodically erase Jamal's status as a gay man. Otherwise, why did kissing and getting laid with Skye happen? It wasn't a gay man experimenting since he'd already gone down that road with Olivia. I was ready to overlook the kiss as being somehow related to the song they sung together, but what accounts for full-blown sexual activity between them? It's Dynasty's Steven Carrington all over again I promise you.

 

It played to me like they connected on a deeper level and thus it led to the sex.  People need to stop trying to label sexual encounters is probably more of the statement Lee was trying to make.  

Bi-sexual, pan-sexual, gay, straight...who cares?  If you connect with someone and you're feeling it?  Do what you want.  

[politichick]

Lucious is the most insecure, self-centered bastard on the planet and totally deserved what he got, but my hard heart melted when he mentioned the 17 years Cookie sacrificed so they could build the empire during his rant. I love how they still have that connection even though they are not romantically linked and disagree more often than not. No matter what, they've ALWAYS have each other's back and that is some powerful stuff and a great lesson for the young people watching this show about family and friendship. Look up ride and die and there these two are.

 

I think his being outed as CEO is a good twist even though we all know he'll get it back. I am disappointed in Hakeem, though, and am curious as to how this will impact his relationship with his mother after she specifically told him that no matter what Empire is their legacy. This is why it's so crazy that Anika and Camilla have both fallen for this man-child. And I'm sorry, but he looks like he can't even fuck right -- at least not a grown-ass woman right. 

 

I hope Anika is not the one to have thrown poor Rhonda down the stairs, because where could they go with her character after that? I hope that the writer's are going to return her to her right mind because this breakdown she's having sucks for her and the audience.

 

Finally, Empire returns in MARCH????:? I tell you, between that and no Girls until damn near the end of February, it's going to be a sad few months! :)

[represent]

 

The way they treat women on this supposedly "progressive" show is horrible. The very message that it's better to be trashy Cookie than well-educated reasonable female (they get rid of most of them by now) is just unbearable.

Yeah, the show may be progressive, but some of the characters aren't namely Luscious, its lead.

 

 

I don't think this show is trying to send that message. It's just a show about two people who grew up rough, and took all the wrong paths, like Luscious admitted compromised his soul  to get wealth and some "legitimacy". And now that they have it,  so now what? How do they hold on to it, evolve or not etc...

 

This is who they are whether it's right or very wrong. If I can watch the likes of the Godfather, Sopranos, Board Walk Empire etc.. and not get all caught up with the women or people I think "deserve" respect then I sure as hell can get on board with Empire.  Because I believe these shows aren't about how my politically correct self views right and wrong or whose trashy vs. respectable, these shows are about  worlds and the people who live in these worlds who play by completely different rules. They see the world differently and I don't get offended by that I just watch, listen and learn.

 

Just because Anika is from wealth doesn't mean she can't get gully.

 

Exactly

 

Like I posted before, I don't even get how she came into Luscious' sphere if she's so "classy"? 

 

I didn't watch season one completely so where/how in the hell did her "classy" debutante ass meet Luscious anyway?

 

You mean to tell me she couldn't find a doctor like her father? 

 

He's a doctor right?

 

 

but my hard heart melted when he mentioned the 17 years Cookie sacrificed so they could build the empire during his rant. I love how they still have that connection even though they are not romantically linked and disagree more often than not. No matter what, they've ALWAYS have each other's back and that is some powerful stuff and a great lesson for the young people watching this show about family and friendship. Look up ride and die and there these two are.

 

This was absolutely the best part of last night's show. 

 

 

It played to me like they connected on a deeper level and thus it led to the sex.  People need to stop trying to label sexual encounters is probably more of the statement Lee was trying to make. 

Bi-sexual, pan-sexual, gay, straight...who cares?  If you connect with someone and you're feeling it?  Do what you want.

 

 

I agree, this is exactly what he was doing with this story line.

 

We need labels in our society to I don't know, feel safe, in control, normal? We need categories, you belong here, they belong there...people need to let all that go, it makes life a lot easier. There are so many other things to worry about IMO.

Edited December 3, 2015 by represent

[Neurochick]

I think his being outed as CEO is a good twist even though we all know he'll get it back. I am disappointed in Hakeem, though, and am curious as to how this will impact his relationship with his mother after she specifically told him that no matter what Empire is their legacy. This is why it's so crazy that Anika and Camilla have both fallen for this man-child. And I'm sorry, but he looks like he can't even fuck right -- at least not a grown-ass woman right.

 

 

I nearly laughed out loud here at my desk when I read that.  To me, Hakeem looks and acts like a little boy.  After that rap battle where he said, "I'm dropping the name Lyon," I laughed.  Hakeem is a little boy douchebag.  If he wanted to show up his father, he'd leave and start his own company, now he wants to take over Empire, guess he didn't hate the Lyon name after all.

[SuburbanHangSuite]

There were some good moments last night but far too much singing for my taste. A little Jamal goes a long way. And I really can't stand Alicia Keys...and who is that woman with her? Her manager? Her Mom? Both? And is that Alice the Waitress playing that part?? (I'm too lazy/bored to jump over to IMDB to check it out)

I am so over the Latina chick with Hakeem. Yawn. How you gonna go from Tianna (sp?) To her?

No way that was BooBoo Kitty doing the shoving. But how random to go from hating Season 1 Rhonda to liking her and from liking/respecting BBK to hating/pitying her? Too many unexplained character shifts and loose ends...I'll be watching in March but I won't be jonesing like I was after Season 1.

[Tara Ariano]

I was enjoying this post until I came upon "Thirsty gives Edna "good, but not $10 million good" head in the elevator." What? A man going down on a woman called, "cunninglus" not "head."

 

That's the first time in my life I've heard that anyone considers "giving head" not to be unisex! I've seen the phrase used to describe either cunnilingus or fellatio; Urban Dictionary says it is usually used for fellatio but that it's accepted regardless of the recipient's sex.

[Syndicate]

It played to me like they connected on a deeper level and thus it led to the sex. People need to stop trying to label sexual encounters is probably more of the statement Lee was trying to make.

Bi-sexual, pan-sexual, gay, straight...who cares? If you connect with someone and you're feeling it? Do what you want.

None of this is how it played to me and since Lee Daniels has some kind of a hard-on for Dynasty, the Steven Carrington theory doesn't feel too far off to me. Edited December 3, 2015 by Syndicate

[SimoneS]

That's the first time in my life I've heard that anyone considers "giving head" not to be unisex! I've seen the phrase used to describe either cunnilingus or fellatio; Urban Dictionary says it is usually used for fellatio but that it's accepted regardless of the recipient's sex.

 

We are just going to have to disagree on that one because I have never that "head" or "fellatio" (which makes even less sense) used to describe a man going down on a woman. All I can think was started by prudes who did not want to use the correct term, cunninglus.

Edited December 3, 2015 by SimoneS

[Badsamaritan]

We are just going to have to disagree on that one because I have never that "head" or "fellatio" (which makes even less sense) used to describe a man going down on a woman. All I can think was started by prudes who did not want to use the correct term, cunninglus.

I've always used and heard the slang 'head' for both sexes. Nobody says fellatio either though. And may I refer you specifically to a tune from a younger and much raunchier Prince by the name of 'Head'. And he's talking about giving it to a female. :-)

[Syndicate]

Yeah, the show may be progressive, but some of the characters aren't namely Luscious, its lead.

I don't think this show is trying to send that message. It's just a show about two people who grew up rough, and took all the wrong paths, like Luscious admitted compromised his soul to get wealth and some "legitimacy". And now that they have it, so now what? How do they hold on to it, evolve or not etc...

This is who they are whether it's right or very wrong. If I can watch the likes of the Godfather, Sopranos, Board Walk Empire etc.. and not get all caught up with the women or people I think "deserve" respect then I sure as hell can get on board with Empire. Because I believe these shows aren't about how my politically correct self views right and wrong or whose trashy vs. respectable, these shows are about worlds and the people who live in these worlds who play by completely different rules. They see the world differently and I don't get offended by that I just watch, listen and learn.

Exactly

Like I posted before, I don't even get how she came into Luscious' sphere if she's so "classy"?

I didn't watch season one completely so where/how in the hell did her "classy" debutante ass meet Luscious anyway?

You mean to tell me she couldn't find a doctor like her father?

He's a doctor right?

This was absolutely the best part of last night's show.

I agree, this is exactly what he was doing with this story line.

We need labels in our society to I don't know, feel safe, in control, normal? We need categories, you belong here, they belong there...people need to let all that go, it makes life a lot easier. There are so many other things to worry about IMO.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Syndicate

[funkopop]

There were some good moments last night but far too much singing for my taste. A little Jamal goes a long way. And I really can't stand Alicia Keys...and who is that woman with her? Her manager? Her Mom? Both? And is that Alice the Waitress playing that part?? (I'm too lazy/bored to jump over to IMDB to check it out).

That is her real life mom, not sure her relationship on the show most likely momager.

Edited December 3, 2015 by funkopop

[sarkygal]

 

Lucious tries to know everything about everyone. He was able to find out about Mimi and circumvent the takeover from jail. There is no way he didn't have research on someone who he already knew was treacherous and open to the highest bidder. He did all the work to find out about Camilla and her business, but didn't bother to keep tabs on her, especially after the threat/promise to come back and claim Hakeem.

IMO, this is the beauty of the long con game that Mimi & Camilla played. Lucious would never have been okay with a single white investor buying such a large bundle of shares, if Mimi had approached him directly. But seeing it as a chance to screw his disloyal family and prove he was the big shot from jail, he partnered with Mimi and she was automatically in his circle. Andre mentioned some concerns regarding Swiftstream and Mimi and Lucious ignored it due to his arrogance. If you can picture little boy 'Keem pillow-talking to Camilla about their family dynamics, she would have known the right way to earn Lucious' trust and bring an outsider into the business. Thirsty (who appears to be an OG conman) played the same game and he's Lucious' left hand man now. 

 

All things considered though, Lucious has been a crappy CEO for a public company. He was making autonomous bad business decisions. You don't start a merger and sell off divisions without a Board voting on it, when you're a public company. In the real world, family legacy or not, he would have been voted out. As Cookie pointed out, they are still majority shareholders, I believe. They major difference is Lucious is no longer in control of day to day operations. From that perspective, Hakeem only screwed over his dad. Yes he betrayed Cookie's trust, but the Lyon money is still theirs. It's not like his vote sends them all to the poorhouse. Lucious just doesn't have a day job anymore. I'm not playing down the consequences of his vote on the family legacy, but it mostly affects Lucious and maybe Andre.

 

As to who pushed Rhonda, it can only be Anika. Not to get all HTGAWM, but they only just moved into the Long Island mansion. We haven't seen any family visit since Lucious showed them the house. And the only other person that would have known about the dodgy alarm is Anika who was given a tour since day 1. Based on soap opera trope, the second Rhonda called her baby Lucious' heir, Anika had plans for that baby. The Deputy Mayor, as suggested by a couple of poster would likely not know of Andre's new home or even that they had a buggy alarm. All other parties were at the emergency board meeting and accounted for.

 

It was a stronger episode than this messy 2nd season has been and TPH and TH delivered on the acting. I thought Lucious bringing up Cookie's 17 years in jail was manipulative, seeing as he's never given a damn about her sacrifice before.

 

Last week, I thought the Jamal/Skye hookup was to placate a demographic of the viewing audience that felt the show was pushing too many gay story lines , but I'm starting to come around to the idea that Lee Daniels is trying to educate folks on pan-sexuality. I can't think of any other reason for the Jamal/Skye hookup, even though I like Alicia Keys.

[Tara Ariano]

We are just going to have to disagree on that one because I have never that "head" or "fellatio" (which makes even less sense) used to describe a man going down on a woman. All I can think was started by prudes who did not want to use the correct term, cunninglus.

 

I didn't say "fellatio" was used to describe a person going down on a woman. I said "giving head" could refer to either fellatio -- oral sex performed on a man -- or cunnilingus -- oral sex performed on a woman. (It's "cunnilingus," btw -- not "cunninglus.")

[PiggyRod]

I WANTED to love it. I really did, but I just couldn't.

 

Everything was so obvious! I could see everything coming a mile a way.

 

• It was painfully evident that Hakeem wouldn't get the nomination he wanted.  They were counting on it solving too many things and it was mentioned too many times.
• It was clear as day that Lucious was being recorded.
• As soon as that other dude mentioned to Lucious he was never nominated for song of the year, I knew it would happen.
• The have been beating us over the head with Rhonda's pregnancy and how much it means to Lucious. It was just a matter of time for Anika to do something about it.  As soon as they mentioned the alarm trouble you know something was coming.
• Mimi mentioned her wife too many damn times as well, and given the preview for this episode we knew Camila would be back. 2+2
• Gvien the fact that Skye arc was just a couple of episodes, you knew whatever came from it needed to be wrapped up soon.  And in reality not a single thing came from it.
• It was painfully obvious Lucious would lose the vote.

[represent]

 

As to who pushed Rhonda, it can only be Anika. Not to get all HTGAWM, but they only just moved into the Long Island mansion. We haven't seen any family visit since Lucious showed them the house. And the only other person that would have known about the dodgy alarm is Anika who was given a tour since day 1. Based on soap opera trope, the second Rhonda called her baby Lucious' heir, Anika had plans for that baby. The Deputy Mayor, as suggested by a couple of poster would likely not know of Andre's new home or even that they had a buggy alarm. All other parties were at the emergency board meeting and accounted for.

But don't you think Thirsty would have done the leg work to find the house for Luscious to purchase?  I do see Luscious passing the job of finding the house onto someone else. And the person didn't disarm the alarm, as in they knew it was there, they just opened the door and let the alarm go off which is why Rhonda had to come out into that hallway in the first place. 

Edited December 3, 2015 by represent

[Dee]

I loved, in the previews for the second half of this season, that Cookie is waiting at Hakeem's place with a broom. lol

[sarkygal]

 

But don't you think Thirsty would have done the leg work to find the house for Luscious to purchase?  I do see Luscious passing the job of finding the house onto someone else. And the person didn't disarm the alarm, as in they knew it was there, they just opened the door and let the alarm go off which is why Rhonda had to come out into that hallway in the first place.

 

Represent, my understanding was that the alarm didn't work properly. It kept going off with no obvious triggers, which is why they showed Andre and Rhonda having problems with it early on in the episode. It was right before Rhonda let Anika in too, so she could have told her the alarm was faulty and explains why she didn't seem scared when it went off before she was attacked. I see no reason for Lucious to off Rhonda and the baby at this stage; maybe when the 'heir' is born, so Andre can lose his mind and Lucious can gain custody. There's been plenty of speculation that Lucious wouldn't leave his grandchild in Andre's care due to his own experience with a bipolar mother. But for now, he's protecting his legacy and therefore Rhonda. 

Edited December 3, 2015 by sarkygal

[Timetoread]

I don't think Hakeem did the right thing.  Cookie, his mother, was the one who told him not to vote Lucious out, because Empire is THEIR dynasty.  It proved once again why Hakeem is a little boy and thinks with a little boy's brain.  "Daddy mean to me, so I vote him out."  He can't see beyond his own penis.

 

Bed partners come and go but your parents are your parents forever.  If Hakeem is THAT pissed at his dad, then LEAVE and start your own stuff.  What a jerk.

 

Actually I think this is one of the few times Hakeem WAS thinking with his big boy brain.  It didn't have anything to do with Camilla other than a shout out that she stood up for him up against Lucious.  All season long Hakeem has been calling out the REAL truth about Lucius - he seeks to control and manipulate EVERYBODY, even the people he's supposed to love the most.  He uses his wealth and power like a weapon against anybody who dares to cross him and gets away with it because of said wealth and power and sheer ruthlessness.  I think the woman that made the difference in Hakeem's decision wasn't Camilla, it was Cookie.  He spent the morning with her in the prison - watching her stay loyal to people she was incarcerated with and still cares for.  Watching her proclaim her deep love for her children who she didn't see for 17 years because Lu wouldn't bring them to see her.  Watching her be THERE with him instead of Jamal, who was having his best day ever.  She stays true to everybody she loves - including Lucious, who she asked Keem to save for the greater good.  Lucious does not.  Lucious hurts the ones he loves the most of all.  He's hurt his boys and he's hurt their mother - the love of his life.  Hakeem saw the "Finish him" blow set up before him and his heart made him take the shot.  Well played, Keem!

Edited December 3, 2015 by Timetoread

[kalamac]

When will pregnant women on soapy TV shows learn to always stay on the ground floor, so they aren't harmed in staircase incidents.

When Anika found out she was pregnant, I initially thought she was going to seduce Lucious and pass the baby off as his, with the idea that she'd be completely pampered and looked after if he thought he was getting a new heir. I would have preferred that to the current storyline.

[represent]

 

I see no reason for Lucious to off Rhonda and the baby at this stage

That's not what I meant by saying I think it's Thirsty. For me he would be acting on his own accord, not on orders from Luscious.

That's why I said that I just couldn't figure out why he would because I know it wouldn't be on Luscious' orders. Other than the brief negative interaction he had with Andre where Andre let it be known that he needs to know his place and that he doesn't trust him... I guess if I think about it long enough, he could feel his place is vulnerable somehow with the take over but...

 

I did think it was Anika but in rewatching the scene I was like that looks like Thirsty walking. It looked like a man walking to me and it wasn't that the head was covered in a manly looking cap either.  From the shoulders, the stride, it just didn't look feminine. Which is why I said, has Anika gone that far over the deep end that even her feminine frame/walk is unrecognizable even in that get up?

 

In terms of the alarm, I wouldn't think it would scare Thirsty, if I believe he knows the house because he did the leg work for Luscious to find it... Even if they put in the alarm unbeknownst to him, so what? This is man who owns a detector that he brought to a grave site to make it easier to locate the dead bodies. 

 

The man has his ways.  Bottom line is I love Thirsty, but I've never trusted him, because I think he's true to his name. I think he's capable of  anything. He's too "Thirsty" and that's dangerous.

Edited December 3, 2015 by represent

[sunsheyen]

It played to me like they connected on a deeper level and thus it led to the sex.  People need to stop trying to label sexual encounters is probably more of the statement Lee was trying to make.  

Bi-sexual, pan-sexual, gay, straight...who cares?  If you connect with someone and you're feeling it?  Do what you want.

The reason I can't get behind this as a theory of Daniels' 'agenda' is because Jamal was written as so adamant and sure in his sexuality (even had the character 'proven' to be gay as a child through the problematic high heel wearing bs). There was nothing that he said or did that indicated he was anything but clear and confident about his sexuality. If he had talked about loving anyone or being pan/bi, I could buy it. I honestly don't buy it as some love is love statement. I think it was just awkward and throwaway.

[LaChavalina]

Why can't Jamal be bi? It's not unheard of. I got the feeling that being bi is more of a stigma than being straight or gay.

Yeah, that didn't sit well with me, either. Wouldn't it be public knowledge that he was married to a woman? And aren't they still passing it off publicly as if Lola were his child, not his father's?

 

You can also add me to the list of viewers unconvinced by Hakeem's lovemaking skills. He'd be the last of the three brothers that I'd hook up with.

[RCharter]

I remember reading there was some kind of twist concerning the Skye Summers character.  What was it?  Did I miss it? 

There has to be something, or something they had planned and are just going to let go.  You don't drop lines like "If the world knew my truth, they would hate me" and not explore that secret a little further.  

 

That red dress was not working for alicia keys at all.  They must have given her a funhouse mirror in her dressing room if agreed to film in that.

[RCharter]

When will pregnant women on soapy TV shows learn to always stay on the ground floor, so they aren't harmed in staircase incidents.

When Anika found out she was pregnant, I initially thought she was going to seduce Lucious and pass the baby off as his, with the idea that she'd be completely pampered and looked after if he thought he was getting a new heir. I would have preferred that to the current storyline.

I knew Anika was going to go scorched earth at some point.  That entire family just pushed and pushed.  Rhonda did nothing wrong to her at all, and no matter what she did Rhonda didn't deserve that.

 

But when Rhonda was going on about how Lucious calls her unborn son "heir" I was like "no girl, stop it, stop it!"  She was happy and she wanted to share, but sometimes you just hold back, especially when you're talking to someone who has been going through such a hard time.

 

This is going to drive Andre absolutely bonkers and will either make him go even deeper into religion or to abandon it altogether.  Given the history of this show...there may be voices.  Rhonda will be going through her own pain and I don't know if she will be able to be there anymore to keep Andre in check like she usually does.  And what is Andre's role possibly going to even be at an Empire run by Camilla?

 

I think your plan of Anika seducing Lucious would have been better too, but I guess you just can't let a staircase like that go to waste on a TV show

[RCharter]

Lucious is the most insecure, self-centered bastard on the planet and totally deserved what he got, but my hard heart melted when he mentioned the 17 years Cookie sacrificed so they could build the empire during his rant. I love how they still have that connection even though they are not romantically linked and disagree more often than not. No matter what, they've ALWAYS have each other's back and that is some powerful stuff and a great lesson for the young people watching this show about family and friendship. Look up ride and die and there these two are.

 

I think his being outed as CEO is a good twist even though we all know he'll get it back. I am disappointed in Hakeem, though, and am curious as to how this will impact his relationship with his mother after she specifically told him that no matter what Empire is their legacy. This is why it's so crazy that Anika and Camilla have both fallen for this man-child. And I'm sorry, but he looks like he can't even fuck right -- at least not a grown-ass woman right. 

 

I hope Anika is not the one to have thrown poor Rhonda down the stairs, because where could they go with her character after that? I hope that the writer's are going to return her to her right mind because this breakdown she's having sucks for her and the audience.

 

Finally, Empire returns in MARCH????:? I tell you, between that and no Girls until damn near the end of February, it's going to be a sad few months! :)

Yeah, it was a little like getting the ice cream you wanted, but getting a stomach ache after you eat it.  For weeks Lucious had been acting so awful, that it was like "you know what, its gonna be so good when he gets got!"  And it was good for a few minutes....until that rant.....and you see that Lucious actually had a heart.

 

Can't wait to see what happens with Hakeem.  But this cements that he is really more like Lucious in that he can be just as cutthroat.  I don't know if there is ever any coming back from this, because the betrayal is so great.  But does he stay with Lyon Dynasty?  How does Cookie deal with him, does he go straight back to Empire?  Cookie should have given a better argument to Hakeem for voting in favor of Lucious, he was right, Lyon Dynasty is supposed to be their baby and their only focus.  Or she should have told Hakeem to give Andre his proxy.

 

Thank goodness Cookie insisted on not selling the Lyon catalog!  I think that is going to be key to getting the Empire back

[represent]

 

Thank goodness Cookie insisted on not selling the Lyon catalog!  I think that is going to be key to getting the Empire back

Yep, nothing like a good, smart woman. That was the smartest thing Luscious ever did, marrying Cookie.

 

The dumbest was divorcing her.  

 

That's OK, the woman truly knows loyalty, she's still there and lucky for him always will be. 

 

But I will say, if you even think of harming a "fake" hair on her head, Luscious is there for her as well.

 

I'm cracking up right now thinking of how she called him "stupid" before telling him no to signing over her rights.

 

Speaking of loyalty, sense of family, I guess it's going to take some doing for her to teach this to Hakeem.

Edited December 4, 2015 by represent

[RCharter]

Yep, nothing like a good, smart woman. That was the smartest thing Luscious ever did, marrying Cookie.

 

The dumbest was divorcing her.  

 

That's OK, the woman truly knows loyalty, she's still there and lucky for him always will be. 

 

But I will say, if you even think of harming a "fake" hair on her head, Luscious is there for her as well.

 

I'm cracking up right now thinking of how she called him "stupid" before telling him no to signing over her rights.

 

Speaking of loyalty, sense of family, I guess it's going to take some doing for her to teach this to Hakeem.

True, but Lucious sort of threw the first stone by trying to replace Hakeem with Freda as his adopted son/daughter

[represent]

 

True, but Lucious sort of threw the first stone by trying to replace Hakeem with Freda as his adopted son/daughter

I know, but that's who he is and Cookie is the only one who gets that and loves him anyway.  

 

And more importantly, she loves the family. Hakeem ain't thinking about family, and he's even on the low end when it comes to the brotherly bonding. I think the older two get it more sometimes since they lived through more of the rough patches. 

 

Hakeem is truly the spoiled one, he hasn't suffered/struggled like the rest of the family.

 

Hakeem is a fetus, he doesn't get it and can't put it all in perspective. This to me is what saves him, he's a baby,

 

The previews have his scrawny ass jumping on top of the board room table at Empire, talking about his birthright. 

 

I busted out laughing, like please, somebody go change his diaper.

Edited December 4, 2015 by represent

[anonymiss]

This season the writers decided to just shoehorn as many famous faces as possible into the show and just come up with the plot around them later. It has all the writing sophistication of a high school student, though some high school students could do better.

Edited December 4, 2015 by anonymiss

[mtlchick]

Well that was a lot to take in.  Not as much as the S1 finale but good enough. But I do hope that they tone down on the guest stars in the second half.  

 

Not for nothing, but I did notice that when they were doing the first round on nominations, it was being aired on the big screen on the ABC building.  The ABC show being advertised  next to it was "Black-ish."  Seeing how Black-ish gave this show a big shout out a few weeks ago, I thought that was nice...if it was intentional.  Or just a nice coincidence. 

 

Not sure what to think about Hakeem.  On the one hand, he did have an axe to grind towards him, though probably not as big as his brothers.  On the other hand, maybe he felt that for once his dad can't have it his way even with the deck is stacked against him.  

 

"She fixed you."  Uh...huh...nope.  

[tomatoflyer]

Isn't Anika too obvious? I really think it wasn't her at all. Otherwise not a very interesting fall finale.

[thuganomics85]

"She fixed you."  Ah, there's the return of Lucious "King Homophobe" Lyon!  The thing that is really fascinating about lines like that is that he isn't just trying to be mean for the sake of it: he truly does believe that being gay means something is wrong with you, and that sleeping with Skye suddenly made it all good again.  A fucked up view, but a view I suspect a decent amount of people actually believe.  That said, I'm not quite sure what the point of this was, since like Skye looks like she accepted that he is gay and doesn't want to pursue anything with her.  Only thing I can think of is that there will be some kind of blowback over Lucious letting it "slip" to Jameson/William Fichtner about their hook-up.  Otherwise, I guess the big takeaway I get from it is that apparently Alicia Keys is beautiful enough to make everyone switch sexuality for a day.

 

Camilla!  I knew she was returning thanks to last week's preview, but I was still thrilled when she sauntered in.  Loved Lucious horrified reaction (I noticed it happen only when he saw her, and not when Mimi mentioned her full name.  Did he just just know it or was he too distracted?  Maybe it just took time to sink in.)  Pretty much agree that Naomi Campbell isn't what I would call a strong actress, but she is perfect for this type of role.  Even if I keep waiting for her to start attacking someone with a phone.  Sorry, but that real-life incident always pops up when I see her.

 

Anyway, not surprised that she played a part in Hakeem flipping the script.  That said, I do think a lot of it was just Lucious himself.  This season so far clearly was building to Lucious pushing Hakeem so hard, that he sent him over the edge, and now Hakeem don't give a fuck about Lyon loyalty.  I think he'll probably regret it by the end, but I can totally see him voting this way, and I still got some satisfaction out of watching Lucious' face fall, when he realized he just lost his Empire, more or less.  Again, this is what happens when you act like a dick 99% of the time, Lucious.

 

Still, I did enjoy the scenes between him and Cookie as always.  Don't know how they do it, but the way Taraji P. Henson and Terrence Howard play against each other kind of makes me dig them as a pair, even when I know that they are toxic together.  But I can just believe that their is still a bond there, no matter how twisted it is.

 

Aww, poor Rhonda!  Doubt she's dead, but I'm sure the baby is a goner.  Anika is the prime suspect, obviously, but since we didn't the attacker's face, I'm expecting another twist.  I guess that Chief Deputy is as good as any suspect, but for some reason, I'm kind of wondering if it's Thirsty too.  I just felt like there had to be a reason for him and Andre being at odds in past episodes.  I have no idea what his motive would be though.

 

Hey, a Tiana sighting!  They really haven't used her very much despite making the actress a regular this season.  I know she isn't dating Hakeem anymore, but can't they find something for her to do?

[Grace19]

Hakeem turned against his father and not his family. From one of the writer's interview, it was impulsive, he did not plan it and it had nothing to do with camilla. It was all about his dad.

[GreekGeek]

It never occurred to me until I read this thread that someone other than Anika pushed Rhonda down the stairs. Who else had the motive? The Deputy Mayor, maybe, but how would she know where Andre and Rhonda lived? If it's Thirsty, what's in it for him?

 

The only way the Camilla/Mimi relationship makes sense, time-wise, is if the two were a couple before Camilla became involved with Hakeem and they had a scheme for Camilla to seduce Hakeem, turn him against his dad, and thus allow her and Mimi to take over Empire. Did we ever see how Camilla and Hakeem met and fell in love? It seems Camilla did/does feel something for Hakeem, though, otherwise why the tears when she left him? She's bisexual, I'm guessing.

[Kendall]

There is a chance that Camilla and Mimi have simply known each other for many years and that friendship turned into opportunity when Camilla was sent packing out of the country.

 

Why wouldn't Mimi help out her good friend, that was probably also a good friend with benefits, get back at Lucious and make millions out of it? Jermel was a good friend of Cookie's, hadn't seen her for 17 years, and he still killed somebody for her. Stealing a company ain't nothing.

 

However, I have to say that this particular plot twist just reinforces the fact that Empire needs to stop relying on established stars for roles. What was a somewhat throwaway character last season is now looking like one that would have some significance this season and it would be much better if she were played by someone that can seriously go toe to toe with Taraji and Terrence. Not to mention, what should be schedule restraints due to the primary career that Naomi, among others, has. Even if Naomi were a great actress, she's not full time, nor would she want to be with her other show and business ventures.

[LisaM]

The Camilla surprise would have been more effective if we didn't see Camilla in the preview.

 

I like the idea that Camilla and Mimi were in it for the long con going back to Camilla/Hakeem hookup. Do we know how Camilla and Hakeem met?

 

If they are planning to keep Anika on the show long-term, I don't see how she can be the person who pushed Rhonda. Surely Rhonda has lost the baby (if not her life) and I don't think you can redeem a character who has perpetrated that act. Speaking of Rhonda, that was some horrific fall; how could she possibly survive?

[darkestboy]

This season has had some hit and miss moments but I really loved this episode. One of the show's best ones to be honest.

 

Much as I hated them going there last week with Jamal/Skye, I do like that this episode ended and did it in a way that was mature and dignified for both characters. Now can we give Jamal a male love interest in the second half of the season?

 

Lucious getting screwed over by Mimi, Camilla and Hakeem was kind of glorious. He'll eventually get Empire back, we all know that but he absolutely brought it on himself. I did feel a tiny bit bad for him when he broke down with Cookie though. Emphasis on tiny there.

 

I don't think Anika pushed Rhonda but I definitely think she's going to get the blame for it though. Poor Rhonda and Andre.

 

Cookie's prison subplot was great too and can we have some more of Jameson in the second half? Love him, 9/10

[RCharter]

Hakeem turned against his father and not his family. From one of the writer's interview, it was impulsive, he did not plan it and it had nothing to do with camilla. It was all about his dad.

 

That makes sense, in his mini flashback montage, everything Hakeem was thinking about had to do with how Lucious had hurt him or screwed him.  Add to that that Lucious took three women out of his life.  His mother, by not bringing Hakeem to see her in prison.  Camilla, with the money.  And even Valentina, who he didn't really like, but it was still an asshole move on Lucious's part.  

 

I just don't know the rest of the family will see it and how it will fracture them.  

 

It never occurred to me until I read this thread that someone other than Anika pushed Rhonda down the stairs. Who else had the motive? The Deputy Mayor, maybe, but how would she know where Andre and Rhonda lived? If it's Thirsty, what's in it for him?

 

The only way the Camilla/Mimi relationship makes sense, time-wise, is if the two were a couple before Camilla became involved with Hakeem and they had a scheme for Camilla to seduce Hakeem, turn him against his dad, and thus allow her and Mimi to take over Empire. Did we ever see how Camilla and Hakeem met and fell in love? It seems Camilla did/does feel something for Hakeem, though, otherwise why the tears when she left him? She's bisexual, I'm guessing.

I'm assuming the Camilla and Mimi were a whirlwind romance.  Camilla left the country, did a little research, found a way to "meet" Mimi, and played Mimi into falling for her because she had the resources to get Empire.  If Mimi was talking to Camilla in that scene where she was crying during that weird ass menage a trois then those tears looked real.  And I imagine Camilla on the other end threatening to leave Mimi if she doesn't go through with the plan to get Lucious out of Empire.  Which would be another reason why Camilla, if she was the person on the other end, would simply hang up instead of engaging Lucious.

 

I don't even see why the Deputy Mayor would push Rhonda down the stairs.  That poor woman looked more scared than mad when Andre left her office and so it seems like she was just going to make the gang injunction go away because she could do it.  It also seems like Andre didn't really see her that much, so she shouldn't really feel angry like a scorned lover.

 

I don't see what the point would be for Thirsty either.  Thirsty seems like a man about his business.  I don't think he would harm someone just for nothing.  Unless its an elaborate plan to get Andre to go crazy.  But there seems to be much better ways to do that.

 

 

 

This season has had some hit and miss moments but I really loved this episode. One of the show's best ones to be honest.

 

Much as I hated them going there last week with Jamal/Skye, I do like that this episode ended and did it in a way that was mature and dignified for both characters. Now can we give Jamal a male love interest in the second half of the season?

 

Lucious getting screwed over by Mimi, Camilla and Hakeem was kind of glorious. He'll eventually get Empire back, we all know that but he absolutely brought it on himself. I did feel a tiny bit bad for him when he broke down with Cookie though. Emphasis on tiny there.

 

I don't think Anika pushed Rhonda but I definitely think she's going to get the blame for it though. Poor Rhonda and Andre.

 

Cookie's prison subplot was great too and can we have some more of Jameson in the second half? Love him, 9/10

I would kinda like to see Jameson as Jamal's love interest.  There is something I like about him even if it would be a very May/December romance....

[darkestboy]

I could be down with a Jamal/Jameson thing. Michael is pretty but there's nothing beyond that with him and Jamal. If anything his episodes in Season 2 seem to prove that they don't work together as a couple.

[Dee]

The reason Jamal hasn't had much of a life beyond his ever blossoming career as a musician, is because Lee insists on keeping Rafael de La Fuente  on the show.

 

I know Lee's extremely loyal to his actors, but Jamal & Michael ended very organically last season and there was absolutely no need to bring him back this season.

[Dee]

The reason Jamal hasn't had much of a life beyond his ever blossoming career as a musician, is because Lee insists on keeping Rafael de La Fuente  on the show.

 

I know Lee's extremely loyal to his actors, but Jamal & Michael ended very organically last season and there was absolutely no need to bring him back this season.

[RCharter]

The reason Jamal hasn't had much of a life beyond his ever blossoming career as a musician, is because Lee insists on keeping Rafael de La Fuente  on the show.

 

I know Lee's extremely loyal to his actors, but Jamal & Michael ended very organically last season and there was absolutely no need to bring him back this season.

oh man, they aren't planning on bringing Michael back are they?  Ugh, can't Lee Daniels just put him on another show or something?  When Skye was saying something about "well you can never feel the same way about me as you did about..." and Jamal got all dreamy eyed and said "Michael" I was like "nooooooo"

[CaughtOnTape]

The reason I can't get behind this as a theory of Daniels' 'agenda' is because Jamal was written as so adamant and sure in his sexuality (even had the character 'proven' to be gay as a child through the problematic high heel wearing bs). There was nothing that he said or did that indicated he was anything but clear and confident about his sexuality. If he had talked about loving anyone or being pan/bi, I could buy it. I honestly don't buy it as some love is love statement. I think it was just awkward and throwaway.

 

So people can't change their minds and open themselves up to different situations as time goes on and circumstances in their life change?

 

Jamal has gone through one helluva change since the first season.  It's not out of the realm of possibility his sexuality has undergone a metamorphosis of some kind as well.  This idea that characters have "always been written as" is kind of antiquated.  I was positive I was going to be married with kids by the time I was 35 when I grew up.  As times changed, things happened and my eyes were opened, that changed to now I'm 39 and I wouldn't get married if you paid me and I don't want kids.

 

People change.  Just because you were some way a year ago doesn't mean you're cemented in time as that forever.  Characters on TV shows are allowed that flexibility as well.

 

Maybe Jamal had never met a woman who he connected with like he connected with Skye.  So he slept with her.  Sexual arousal comes from many places.  Not just your attraction to someone based on gender.  

Edited December 4, 2015 by CaughtOnTape

[RCharter]

 

The reason I can't get behind this as a theory of Daniels' 'agenda' is because Jamal was written as so adamant and sure in his sexuality (even had the character 'proven' to be gay as a child through the problematic high heel wearing bs). There was nothing that he said or did that indicated he was anything but clear and confident about his sexuality. If he had talked about loving anyone or being pan/bi, I could buy it. I honestly don't buy it as some love is love statement. I think it was just awkward and throwaway

 

So people can't change their minds and open themselves up to different situations as time goes on and circumstances in their life change?

 

I would think though, that with a father as disapproving as Lucious, with as much difficulty as Jamal would have with his family, and with his father, and with how difficult it would seem to be to make the journey as a gay male artist it would make sense for Jamal to look for ways to avoid that and not put himself through the heartbreak if at all possible.  Which, to me, would mean that he would have already explored the world of women and really tried to find a way to be attracted to women so he wouldn't have to deal with so many problems.

 

I do think its possible that maybe Jamal thought that his feelings of attraction for men meant that he was gay, and could never ever be attracted to another woman.  And so perhaps he thought it was never a possibility of him being truly attracted to another women.  Especially since he wasn't attracted to Raven-Symone's character.

 

But I want to know what Skye's "truth" is that would make all her fans hate her.