S05.E10: Broken Heart

[mjgchick]

Yes she is. They've really fucked up the Arthurian legend. She's why Arthur has Excalibur and raised Lancelot.

I will be so annoyed if Lancelot was locked up some where this whole time. I might laugh also.

Edited November 30, 2015 by mjgchick

[HoodlumSheep]

That would require David being allowed to have a reaction Snow hasn't approved, or have a conversation with someone who isn't Snow or a random guest star.

I thought David's bro-senses were tingling when he glanced back at Hook when Hook went into the diner to enact the dark curse. I was surprised he or anyone didn't bust in there and see what happened. Instead, Emma poofs them all into the diner already unconscious.

I don't think they explained Lancelot's disappearance at all (his original 4 episode disappearance). Or where grumpy had been.

What about the kids too?

Poor Grumpy, here he wanted to be part of the adventure and Granny gets more screen time than him.

Edited November 30, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Rumsy4]

He went to talk to his mother, the Lady of the Lake, 

 

Thanks, I missed that completely. 

 

One admittedly good twist I liked: Charon was Nimue all along.  

 

I didn't get that from the scene. I thought she and the other DOs had commandeered the boat.

 

Didn't they mention her as his mother when he basically help Snow into having children again? I thought the water he made Snow drink was from Lady of the Lake?

 

Wasn't that just water from Lake Nostos? 

[InsertWordHere]

Didn't they mention her as his mother when he basically help Snow into having children again? I thought the water he made Snow drink was from Lady of the Lake?

I checked the transcript and I think all he said about his mother in "Lady of the Lake" was, "My mother raised me by a lake." Sure, she could be the mythical Lady of the Lake, also sometimes known as Nimue (but not current Nimue, a different Nimue, just like Ursula is Ursula 2.0), but it's never really been explicitly stated in the show until last night. The "lady" of Lake Nostos was the siren Charming killed and the Lady of the Lake in episode 2.3 was supposed to be Ruth or Snow, I think. They are depending on our assumptions of Lancelot du Lac's origins based on what we know of the legend, not what has been presented onscreen.

[RadioGirl27]

I would have thought David would have been a little more upset his bromance buddy was now Darth Hook.

That would require David actually caring for Hook, which he doesn't. The "friendship" between those two is a fandom creation, not something that is happening on the show.

[Mathius]

I didn't get that from the scene. I thought she and the other DOs had commandeered the boat.

 

But it was framed the exact same way as Charon's appearance before, the difference now being that "Charon" got off the boat and out from the shadows to reveal the mask underneath the hood, then taking it off to reveal Nimue.  I could be wrong, but I feel the intent there was that the hooded figure seen before was and always has been Nimue.

 

That would require David actually caring for Hook, which he doesn't. The "friendship" between those two is a fandom creation, not something that is happening on the show.

 

It actually DID happen on the show...in Season 3 and 4A.  It has since been completely forgotten about.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Mathius

[Panopticon]

My best thought: I'm glad the head!Rumple knew that Emma was an "ineffectual" Dark One. About time someone acknowledged that she wasn't rolling around Camelot reveling in her dark power and torturing people with impunity. 

 

My worst thought: Henry can die in a fire. Or on a sword. Or by ripping his heart out for his great-grandfather. Or by flying monkey. Or stranded in an abandoned tunnel. Or whatever. The writers' explanation for how Rumple and Regina have "changed" so their big crimes are less worthy of mention than Emma's tiniest, most well-intentioned misstep is even less palatable coming out of Henry's mouth than read in an interview. 

[Chaos Theory]

I know a lot of people disagree with me on my issues with Hook so I won't get into it here. My whole problem with the Hook as super evil guy is that the season started out as Emma as Dark One and I thought that was super cool. The Dark One is arguably the true evil character of the show the one who manipulates others to his/her bidding and to have Emma as the Datk One had infinite possibilities and yet the show barely even had her do any of them. I am pretty sure she has done worse as normal Emma. I am pretty sure Emma is more likeable as The Dark One anyway which is weird.

Look I am not saying she should do anything super evil but she's the freakin dark one. Hell she acts more like Emma then she ever has....which is either really something or maybe the whole point and if that is the whole point....I withdraw my objection.

If not then what was the point of making Emma the Dark One...a really great idea. Probably one of the better ideas in a long time?

Edited November 30, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[superjengirl]

Am I the only one who really liked this episode?

No, you're not. This is a story...a fairytale story and things are not going to go the way WE want it. We are use to stories having happy endings. For once, this "fairytale" is showin stories without immediate happy endings because they aren't in the Enchanted Forest anymore. They are in our world...a world full of not-great endings.

Disney changed stories from Grimm and others to have happy endings. I want to see Mulan end with honor and dignity. I want Belle happily dancing with the human Beast at his castle, but those are those Disney stories. And, this story is a story.

Edited November 30, 2015 by superjengirl

[kili]

What was Nimue's prolem with Merlin? The last tme those two crazy lovers were around each other, he loved her too much to kill her and she turned him into a tree.  In the diner, she was whining about all the things he had done to her and how he had to pay for that. This is the second time she's tried to kill him. For a guy who was imprisoned in a tree for the last 500 years, he sure managed to get enough people to hate him enough to want him dead.

[Mathius]

No, you're not. This is a story...a fairytale story and things are not going to go the way WE want it. We are use to stories having happy endings. For once, this "fairytale" is showin stories without immediate happy endings because they aren't in the Enchanted Forest anymore. They are in our world...a world full of not-great endings.

Disney changed stories from Grimm and others to have happy endings. I want to see Mulan end with honor and dignity. I want Belle happily dancing with the human Beast at his castle, but those are those Disney stories. And, this story is a story.

 

Yeah, no.  

 

For one thing, the Enchanted Forest had the same "no immediate happy endings" rule in play as well, just look at Snow and Charming for proof of that.  How many times had their happiness been torn away from them back in the EF?

 

Also, no, Disney did NOT change all Grimm and other fairy tales to have happy endings, that is a falsehood.  The source tales were usually darker than the Disney versions, yes, but they still almost always ended in a happily ever after. 

Edited November 30, 2015 by Mathius

[YaddaYadda]

In the diner, she was whining about all the things he had done to her and how he had to pay for that. This is the second time she's tried to kill him.

 

Yeah, about this. What was up with that? It has to be more than what we've seen, no?

 

For a guy who was imprisoned in a tree for the last 500 years, he sure managed to get enough people to hate him enough to want him dead.

 

 

Well he was busy visiting children, and telling them prophecies, and whatnot.

[october]

So that's what it feels like to have my heart curb-stomped for forty minutes. Thanks, show.

 

I'll try not to repeat what has already been said, but I have a few thoughts I've been mulling over today. I'm going to vent now *deep breath*

 

There's no doubt in my mind that, barring the writers being swapped out for people even less competent, Hook and Emma will reunite and live happily every after by the show's climax. They will always care about each other. But my concern is, and has always been, whether I'll care about them when all this is said and done. Especially after watching the promo I'm very doubtful that the writers (even at their best) can make this come together in a way that doesn't undo the good they've done up till now with CS and the characters individually. I saw Brigitte Hales asking Hook fans to give them a chance and wait until the next episode, but I think she's underestimating the inherent issues with much of this storyline and this episode. Even an excellent mid-season finale will be like throwing good writing after bad.

 

I think Colin and Jennifer are doing a wonderful job. All the props in the world to them. But I have not enjoyed the writing for either Dark One in this storyline. While the sight of him being tortured by his past memories was difficult to watch (in a good way), Hook's turn to the dark side was far too abrupt for me even considering his history. This should've been a two-parter. I also think the character has suffered because we hardly got to see what was going on inside his head. We saw a bit with Clippy!Rumple early on in Camelot, but when he goes batshit and crushes Merlin's heart we get nothing. Even when he was a villain in S2 we were given insight into his motivations. Now, at this crucial junction, he is as closed off to us as he is to Emma and as a viewer I hate that. For the first time ever I felt alienated from this character. I think it was a poor writing choice done to keep the audience in the dark when we've already been kept there for several episodes as it is! These writers are too busy jerking off to their own cleverness and 'gotcha!' twists they don't notice the damage they do to their characters. Also I still don't understand why him having his memories removed somehow put the darkness inside him to sleep.

 

As for Emma: I love JMO, but the Dark!Swan? She's so fucking boring! Which makes the scene of her family and friends 'magnanimously' deciding to trust her even more bizarre. Stealing people's memories and plotting murder (albeit of one unpleasant character) is bad by regular standards. But by Storybrooke standards it's positively pedestrian. Emma has turned the other cheek so many times for these assholes I'm surprised she doesn't rotate continuously on the spot. She's earned several rides on the 'easy redemption train' by now. So what if she tried to do it all on her own? That Savour Complex didn't come from nowhere (so go drink a tall glass of STFU, Henry).

 

Apart from her dressing down of Regina in The Price, the Dark Swan has been even more of a punching bag than regular Emma. We were promised an Emma who'd indulge in her own whims and desires and sensuality. Aside from a few hot make-out sessions with Hook, some tight trousers and a boring new house, we've just had her being yelled at, sassed, judged by people who have no business judging her, and moping around all sad and alone. Regular Emma could be more formidable, not to mention more entertaining.

 

Where is the fun? Where is the dark humour to alleviate the heavy and tragic elements of this storyline? Where is the catharsis? It was just doom, doom and more doom. That's exhausting to watch, not to mention unsatisfying. I feel like so much is missing. Where was Emma telling her parents what she really thinks of them and the way they treat her? Where was the Dark Swan giving Dark Hook as good as she got from him? Instead she stands there and cries. I'm not saying I wanted them to have some kind of Mr and Mrs Smith style magical house brawl (as fun as that is to imagine though), but it should've been more interesting than this.

 

Also, how in the name of bloody fuck did Rumple defeat Dark One Hook in that sword fight? I looked away for a second and then Hook was on the floor. That's nuts. Rumple already beat Hook in a duel two centuries ago. And him letting Hook live? That's not a sign of his growth because he did that exact same thing in The Crocodile- leaving Killian alive to rub it in! You want to show me Rumple has changed? Then have him do what Hook did earlier this season: admit to his own part in their feud. Have him openly express remorse for his shit instead of being so eager to 'leave the past behind' even as Emma and Killian continue to suffer because of his evil. I can't believe it. It's like Regina 2.0. I dislike Rumple more now that he's a 'hero' than I ever did when he was evil and murdering people.

 

I've never had the chance to watch Brave and now I never, ever want to. I'm sure Merida's animated equivalent is a delight. But this live action version is such a pain in the ass and a waste of screen time that I never want to lay eyes on her or her magnificent hair ever again. Ever.

Edited November 30, 2015 by october

[Shanna Marie]

One other thing they set up that has come to nothing so far: Merlin's warning to Emma about taking Excalibur. Unless something else happens that couldn't have happened if she hadn't taken it, and unless the moment we saw her flashing back to that before making her decision turns not to have been what that warning was about, nothing that's happened has had anything to do with her taking Excalibur. Hook would have snapped anyway. Rumple has it now, so Hook's not doing anything with it. The only other things I can think of were that her having Excalibur and using it to control Hook was what made him snap in the first place, so it had nothing to do with her taking it at the time we saw the flashback, or that the bad thing about her taking the sword was her plan to kill Zelena, which might have done some kind of serious Dark One damage to Emma's soul, but which Hook ended up averting by freeing Zelena.

 

You know what I've realized is particularly galling about this plot? It directly follows them spending an entire freaking season on the idea that "villains don't get happy endings" after Regina was retroactively prevented from killing the wife of the guy she decided she liked two days ago. It would have been one thing if that had just been Regina's delusion, but every other character parroted the line and jumped in to help Regina find a way to rewrite the universe, all because Regina had been thwarted in romance. Regina got a lot more help and support from other characters when she was sad about her boyfriend than Emma has had while struggling with darkness that she took on to save everyone, with the idea that she had faith that her family would be able to save her. Henry was more angry at Emma for doing things on her own (like they even offered to help) than he was at Regina for kicking him out of the house and telling him to stay away because she was sad about her boyfriend.

 

And they'd best not pull any of that "villains don't get happy endings" crap again after we've seen what happens to heroes. Make a great sacrifice to save the person who's "worked so hard" and the entire town -- in other words, be a hero -- and what do you get? You get to be psychologically tortured by voices in your head spurring you to do evil things, you get to be controlled by people who are enjoying keeping you from being able to talk, you get expected to save lives even though it might hurt you, you get to watch the man you love die from what he did to save your family, you get to have your effort to save the man you love backfire horribly and make things worse so that he hates you, you get to be criticized by your family for all your decisions and for not asking for their help. Or if you put yourself at risk to save people who barely give you the time of day, you get to die horribly from a flesh wound and then get turned into a monster.

 

Why would anyone want to be a hero in this world?

 

Also, no, Disney did NOT change all Grimm and other fairy tales to have happy endings, that is a falsehood.  The source tales were usually darker than the Disney versions, yes, but they still almost always ended in a happily ever after.

The thing that's usually darker about the Grimm versions is that worse things happen to the villains. They have some really awful torture inflicted on them as part of the happy ending for the heroes.

[Rumsy4]

Yes to everything you said, october. This seems merely a gotcha twist to fool the audience, and have Hook do the shitty things Emma should have done to make her believeable as some horrible villain they are all painting her.

[Helena Dax]

Wow, that hurt.

 

I want to believe that there's something else going on. Maybe when Hook called Nimue in  order to  kill Merlin  she  stayed and is controlling him since then.  What reason could he have to get the other Dark Ones alive? It's a very sudden plan. It seems something she'd do. 

 

As painful as it would be to have a Dark Hook, it's still better than a dead one. He's probably the reason  I'm still  watching this mess so if he's out, I'm out. 

[CatMack]

There's a lot of shitty writing happening that no amount of potential good writing in following episodes will undo.  But that's so par for the course on this show that at this point I'm not even surprised about it.  I'm the idiot who still watches when it's clearly never going to get any better, so I'll call out shitty writing as shitty writing but in the end it's my choice to keep torturing myself and I know it.  So for now I will still hold out some small hope that there will indeed be some potential good writing in the midseason finale that will at least mitigate the sucky writing in this ep.  I do like some of the theories that fans have posted here and on tumblr, but I'm really tired of fans having to do all the work in terms of trying to string together character continuity from the pingponging every character does to fulfill whatever whim the writers have this week.

 

I will say, one thing a lot of people seem to have a problem with that I don't is Belle finally leaving Rumple.  First, yeah, she could have just not gone to the well, but since Rumple's big declaration didn't include a "I'll text you if I win and you don't show up at the well" she probably wanted to actually see if he survived.  A+ planning, Rumple.  Second, yeah the timing is a bit wonky when you look at their relationship arc, but that's not a problem with the writing in this episode, that's a problem with all the past times Belle should have dropped his ass.  Like she said, there's too much broken trust.  Even if he really does stick with his redemption this time, and frankly Belle has little reason to trust that he will since he's "redeemed" himself before and then gone evil again, that doesn't mean their relationship could ever be healthy again.  If you're married to an abusive alcoholic and he eventually gets his life together you can be proud and happy for him and still not want to ever be in a relationship with him again.  It doesn't matter if Rumple is being relatively well behaved compared to the past, his past abuse of her emotions and her trust still happened.  I'm actually surprised and a little impressed the writers didn't try to act like all that baggage got purged when Rumple's heart went white.  

 

I'm sure they'll be reunited eventually and most likely in a way that makes me want to bang my head against a wall, but this was actually the first time since Belle grew a spine at the end of 4A that I felt Rumbelle was handled well.  

[Shanna Marie]

I'm wondering, is any wound from Excalibur still automatically deadly? If so, we've got another item for our "is Hook really as bad as he's pretending to be?" list. Not only did he heal Rumple before the fight and not commit any of the violent acts against Rumple that he threatened to do, in spite of having superior size and fighting skill plus magic powers and all his mad lust for revenge, but when he bloodied Rumple for his other purpose, he did so with his hook rather than with the automatically deadly sword. And when he poofed away, he left the sword behind, didn't he (I seem to recall Rumple having it at the well)? Surely he would have kept the one sword that could kill him, since he could zap it out of thin air.

[Mathius]

I'm wondering, is any wound from Excalibur still automatically deadly? If so, we've got another item for our "is Hook really as bad as he's pretending to be?" list. Not only did he heal Rumple before the fight and not commit any of the violent acts against Rumple that he threatened to do, in spite of having superior size and fighting skill plus magic powers and all his mad lust for revenge, but when he bloodied Rumple for his other purpose, he did so with his hook rather than with the automatically deadly sword. And when he poofed away, he left the sword behind, didn't he (I seem to recall Rumple having it at the well)? Surely he would have kept the one sword that could kill him, since he could zap it out of thin air.

 

Very true.  I really don't think Hook wants to destroy Rumple, he wants to destroy the Dark One, period, himself included...but he needs to go through all of these evil motions first because it will lead to whatever way frees Emma of being a Dark One, because Hook's unwilling to take her down with him and the rest of them.

[kili]

I'm wondering, is any wound from Excalibur still automatically deadly? If so, we've got another item for our "is Hook really as bad as he's pretending to be?" list

 

Or....A&E just don't want to lose their Rumple toy so they decided to do Frat Boy Hook who taunted Rumple like a cat does a mouse instead of killing him outright and his hubris caused himt to lose the fight.

 

It is the Sword Battle at Lake Nostos all over again. Those that like Hook figure he threw the battle because he did not need the compass and secretly wanted to help Emma. Those that don't like Hook figure he's a crappy fighter (losing to a person who just picked up a sword a week ago) whose ego and sliminess was justly rewarded with defeat.

 

A&E don't actually care what it means. They just wanted a cool sword battle, to revisit the scene from the Crocodile and to have both their toys survive. Logic is an addiction that can be beaten. A&E has a twelve step program just for you.

[mercfan3]

Very true.  I really don't think Hook wants to destroy Rumple, he wants to destroy the Dark One, period, himself included...but he needs to go through all of these evil motions first because it will lead to whatever way frees Emma of being a Dark One, because Hook's unwilling to take her down with him and the rest of them.

 

Perhaps his cruelty to her is a way to get her to be willing to let him go. 

[Shanna Marie]

Or....A&E just don't want to lose their Rumple toy so they decided to do Frat Boy Hook who taunted Rumple like a cat does a mouse instead of killing him outright and his hubris caused himt to lose the fight.

But that's the part that doesn't make sense. Original Recipe Frat Boy Killian taunted Rumple but didn't kill him because he'd won. He'd publicly humiliated Rumple, shown him up as a coward, and got the woman. Dark One Rumple taunted Killian but didn't kill him because he'd won. He'd replayed the fight from before, but with him winning due to magic, he'd forced Killian to watch Milah's murder, and cut off his hand.

 

But Dark One Hook didn't win and could have if he'd fought the way Dark One Rumple did. He had the power to poof himself away every time Rumple swung a sword at him. He had the power to poof Excalibur out of Rumple's hands. When he was lying there with Rumple holding the point of Excalibur to his throat, he could have poofed himself behind Rumple and stabbed Rumple with the sword Rumple had dropped or with his hook. He could have toyed with him a lot more to the point he had Rumple at his mercy before leaving him to live. He didn't bring back the Dark Ones until nightfall and the fight was at noon, so it's not like he had to poof away with the blood on his hook because he had to raise the Dark Ones at that moment. But he allowed Rumple to win and poofed away instead of really finishing the fight. His hubris might have got him to that point, but since he did poof away from the ship, that means he could have poofed to elsewhere on the ship and continued the fight. But the guy who spent centuries wallowing in darkness with no thought other than destroying Rumple and who was persuaded to cast the Dark Curse in order to kill Rumple just played with him a little, got the blood he needed, gave Rumple the victory, and then left. If that's not meaningful, then it's terrible writing that disregards everything we know about the character. If they wanted to maintain their Rumple and Hook toys and meant it to be a legitimate fight on Hook's part, then they needed to come up with something like Rumple using the squid ink or someone else intervening.

[Arnella]

 

I fell in love with this show because season 1 was so much fun..all these characters who were oblivious to their fairytale selves. Each season I have enjoyed it less, because Disney characters are squeezed in for no reason other than that ABC can do so, and because the plotline long ago lost any internal consistency.

Now it's just ridiculous. I do adore Hook, and I think Colin plays him masterfully. I like the swashbuckling pirate, and I thoroughly enjoyed seeing Hook being brutal to Emma tonight. It was Bad Boy to the 100th power. However, with Emma, I just can't. I have always seen Jennifer as a wooden actress, but now with this dark one arc, I can't get past her acting choices (hers and wardrobe's too). So Emma now has this hoarse, husky voice, a sullen demeanor, white slicked back hair and black leather duds. This is her rendering of the dark one. Anyone would pale beside Robert Caryle, whose Rumple persona is fascinating and a world apart from Mr. Gold, but really what is there to Jennifer's rendition but the voice and hair?

I am not looking forward to the boatload from hell. It's just getting boring.

Arkay, You articulated pretty much exactly how I feel about this show.  Still waiting for the season 1 story magic (and characters) to return.  I hated Hook at first but now that he has been given actual acting to do, I'm very impressed with Colin. However, I feel exactly the same about Jennifer Morrison as I did when she was on House {exasperated sigh}.  I will stay to the end for Robert Carlyle. I am paying for my devotion but I stayed still the end for him with SGU - the things we do for love!

It looks like they are bringing back other guest stars for a special episode soon but the only one that would make sense would be Zozo and he will just be represented by a generic hooded figure because the writers have bitten off more than they could chew with this dark one circus.

[Camera One]

Our intrepid heroes had been so effective against a single Dark One, now let's see how they do with a boatload of them.  *Snerk*  Off to the library to read The Dark One Chronicles, everyone!  Where they'll no doubt discover the screech of a Siamese Cat will de-magic Dark Ones, so onwards and upwards to find Lady and the Tramp.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

Did anyone else laugh when they mentioned the Lady of the Lake was a two day ride away? Everything in the Enchanted Forest is within a couple hour hike and no one seems to know anyone else, but this person lives in Outer Mongolia and both Snow & Merlin know who she is.

[Camera One]

I was already laughing over the WTF about Lancelot's mother that we've never heard of and him going to visit her and disappearing altogether once again.

[Rosiejuliemom]

I'm prepared for Full Of Grace to play and pain. :)

 

Full of Grace, you say? *puts on table-flipping gloves*

 

Honestly, if it wasn't for Colin and Jen, I would have already flipped a few tables in the course of this storyline. Their acting has made up for a multitude of sins. Except Emma's Dark One voice. That gets more irritating with every episode.

 

I don't know if I can ever forgive Hook for the orphan remark. I mean, there's below the belt, and then there's that. Damn.

 

I started the episode thinking that Regina and Snow needed to take a seat in regards to their treatment of Emma. As it turned out, they couldn't, as Henry's ass needed them all. Emma cock-blocking you in Camelot is more deserving of anger than everything Regina and Rumple have done to you? Seriously?! I get that Emma's misdeeds are the most recent in memory, but still. You didn't have that much of a chance with Violet anyway. Not if Harold and Maude is your choice for a date movie. At least they worked past it.

 

The shot of Emma cradling Killian's head when the curse was rolling in broke my heart. As did the rest of their interactions.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Rosiejuliemom

[KingOfHearts]

 

I was already laughing over the WTF about Lancelot's mother that we've never heard of and him going to visit her and disappearing altogether once again.

I bet he runs into Mulan and Ruby on the way, tells them their friends are in trouble, and wouldn't you know it - the Lady of the Lake is nice enough to send them all to Storybrooke!

[Camera One]

Isn't Nimue traditionally the Lady of the Lake?

 

 

Is it possible that Lance will show up in SB, with his mother's help? Would she have any knowledge of/connection to the pond portal?

 

We will probably meet Nimue's sister, Nimwit.  She's good so she's not too bright.

[tennisgurl]

Personally, I`m still laughing at the fact that the random fishing hole in town is also a portal to the Afterlife. Just totally normal stuff in this part of the multiverse. Never been mentioned before, probably never will after, just...here`s a portal! 

[Mari]

I spent a lot of the episode thinking "aaaaaaahhhhh!?" so it's possible I missed a detail, but I guess I've assumed that the portal could have opened from any body of water, provided the opener met the qualifications and had the ingredients.  It's just that one of the ingredients was Rumple's blood, so they had to go to Storybrooke.

 

Did they ever specify that it had to be in Storybrooke?  I mean, except for needing Rumple's blood?

[Blue Plastic]

So when Belle gets back with Rumple, she's a doormat who can't stick to her guns, then when she leaves Rumple last season, it was good for her for stepping out of her abusive relationship but it's instantly bad because she still clearly has feelings for her husband. And then when decides to stay separated from him and work on herself she's morally skewed because it looks like she only loves him for his power. I really think this board won't let Belle win no matter what she does.

I for one am fine with Belle leaving Rumple and think that's probably the better thing for her.  I'm just confused about the manner in which she has been shown to do it.  For one thing, I thought she already left him when she forced him over the town line.  But then pretty much this whole season so far she's been glued to his hip, so I thought they were semi back together.  Yet now that he's been stripped of magic and had his heart roto-rootered, she's all peace out.  It gives the definite impression that at the very least Belle is some kind of adrenaline junkie that craves excitement, and now that she thinks Rumple is unlikely to either cause any trouble or be in any danger himself, she is not interested.

 

I totally agree with others that even though Rumple's heart is supposed to be "pure" now, he should still have to live with the consequences of what he has done in the past and try to make amends wherever possible.  He is still the person who did those things, even if the condition that goaded him to do those things (being the Dark One) has been removed.  Yet at the same time, because the DO has been removed, this is his best chance to change and now she leaves, after years of sticking with him no matter what?  Even though she's probably making the right choice, the timing looks odd.  I don't think the writers meant to give this impression of Belle, but they have IMO.

 

I do wonder if this rejection is going to make Rumple do something drastic (and evil).  I keep thinking they probably don't want to lose the giggly imp permanently.

 

Another thing that confuses me is why Dark Camelot Emma could see Dark Camelot Hook's Mind!Rumple.  Shouldn't they each have their own?  They're treating Mind!Rumple as if he is a real entity.  Hmm.  But if Mind!Rumple actually exists, how come he can see inside Dark Ones' minds?  And where does he live?  Does he need to eat?!

[kili]

Does he need to eat?!

Apparently, Dark Ones are like house plants. They just need water.

[snarkastic]

Another thing that confuses me is why Dark Camelot Emma could see Dark Camelot Hook's Mind!Rumple. Shouldn't they each have their own? They're treating Mind!Rumple as if he is a real entity. Hmm. But if Mind!Rumple actually exists, how come he can see inside Dark Ones' minds? And where does he live? Does he need to eat?!

It's probably just the same as Merlin seeing Emma's clippy!Nimue. Something about being immortal was enough I think?

[Rumsy4]

Okay, so I re-watched parts of the episode. 

 

-- Rumple controlling Hook with his heart really did a number on him. That's why he felt deeply betrayed that Emma disrespected his choice, and followed it by lying to him about Excalibur and then summoning him with it. He had just relieved his worst and most painful moments when becoming a Dark One.

-- Clippy!Rumple goaded him saying Emma didn't really need Excalibur to control him. That revealed his deep insecurities about an unequal relationship with Emma. That's why he called BS on Emma using her walls as an excuse for her lack of faith and trust in him. Especially when he had supported her so unconditionally. 

--That's probably when he decided this "together" shit was not going to work, and to do his own thing. He is angry and lashing out at Emma, falling back on his revenge as a security blanket. Hook tends to do that when he feels betrayed.

--Back in Storybrooke, Zelena calls him Emma's toy. That plays on the same insecurity because Emma had again taken away his agency by stealing his memories. So, he lashes out at her yet again by attacking her habit of pushing people away. That "orphan" comment was way harsh, but the "blonde distraction" part reminded me of Emma's "Let me guess: with you?" from 3B. The next minute, Emma was giving up her magic to save Hook's life. I think it will be the same with Dark Hook, but with much bigger stakes at play.

 

I don't think Hook was pushing Emma to make her hate him in some master plan to destroy the Darkness. At least not yet. At this point, I think he is mainly driven by feelings of betrayal and anger, and the Darkness was really amplifying that. I don't think he meant to kill Gold in that duel. He wasn't even trying. He has a bigger plan involving Nimue and the arrival of the other Dark Ones in Storybrooke, and I'm sure he wants Gold to be alive so he can gloat. But I don't think Hook was prepared for the actual sight of that boatload of Dark Ones arriving in Storybrooke. I think it's finally dawning on him that he may have effed up big time. 

 

Knowing what was coming (and skipping some parts), it wasn't actually too painful to rewatch, and I feel much better about the episode. I don't really know why, but this seems like a lover's quarrel on drugs. Jen and Colin scenes were so good. I loved every single facial expression, voice-inflection, and hand-gesture of Colin's Dark Hook. I think Colin is doing an amazing job, and I'm glad both Jen and Colin got to try different things this season. I'm feeling less pessimistic about the Winter Finale now.

[shipperx]

See I think the thing being overlooked is the elephant in the room. Hook wants revenge against the Dark One. Yeah, that's been Rumple for him. And he's hella angry at Dark Emma and claims that he wants revenge on her. What's the overlap here? The Dark One.

Hook can easily be telling the truth. He wants revenge. He wants revenge against the Dark One. What's the ultimate revenge? Destroying the Dark One.

Not Rumps.

Not Emma.

The whole Dark One thing.

And now they're all in Storybook. He can now get his revenge in full. Nimue probably didn't think through what Hook's vendetta might actually mean.

[Camera One]

I don't fault Emma for keeping the sword away from Hook, and I don't think it's a reflection of not having faith in him.  She knew herself how difficult it was to resist the Darkness, especially in the first day.  I was just thinking how this conflict might look in the everyday world.

 

BOYFRIEND: How dare you hide the chocolate bars from me?  

GIRLFRIEND: But I thought you said you were on a diet and you were afraid you wouldn't be strong enough to resist?

BOYFRIEND: You lied to me!  You have no faith in me!  Remember when your mother doubted your ability to cook a turkey and I cheered you on?  That's it!  Now I'm going to go out and kill someone and help inmates from the federal penitentiary escape!

[Rumsy4]

I don't fault Emma for keeping the sword away from Hook, and I don't think it's a reflection of not having faith in him.  She knew herself how difficult it was to resist the Darkness, especially in the first day.  I was just thinking how this conflict might look in the everyday world.

 

BOYFRIEND: How dare you hide the chocolate bars from me?  

GIRLFRIEND: But I thought you said you were on a diet and you were afraid you wouldn't be strong enough to resist?

BOYFRIEND: You lied to me!  You have no faith in me!  Remember when your mother doubted your ability to cook a turkey and I cheered you on?  That's it!  Now I'm going to go out and kill someone and help inmates from the federal penitentiary escape!

 

I'm not really blaming Emma . I was trying to get into the mindset of Hook. The chocolate bar analogy doesn't really work here. Hook just got painfully DO-ed against his will. The first thing Emma did after willing becoming the Dark One was try to crush Merida's heart and had to be talked out of it. It's like the Shattered Sight spell--it distorts and amplifies the worst qualities in people you love and catastrophizes situations. Hook was clearly in a terrible place to be motivated to fight its influence particularly when he had been high on it for centuries and was just recovering. 

Edited December 1, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

The chocolate bar analogy was just a joke.  I didn't think the Hook thing was handled well in this episode, but how I (tried to) reconcile it when I was watching was basically that Hook was an ordinary man filled with Darkness, so he didn't have the Light that Emma had inside to balance it.  I do agree that MindRumple and Zelena needling Hook about being at Emma's every whim hit a sore point which the Darkness used.  Kinda like how the writers had Ingrid say those things to Emma in 4A to get her powers out of control.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Camera One

[Camera One]

It reminded me of how the friend I marathoned with used to remark how Emma always bossed Hook around.  She said it in both 3B and 4A.  I didn't really agree, but it's weird how the writers now acknowledge it in the writing, yet they didn't think it was a problem to write it that way in the first place?  

Edited December 1, 2015 by Camera One

[thuganomics85]

I totally forgot that Hook being the Dark One means he gets to have Dark One Rumple in his head.  At least that stuff was a blast.  Then again, Hook/Rumple together are usually always interesting to watch.  While the entire cast in general seems pretty close and work well, I think that Robert Carlyle and Colin O'Donoghue must really enjoy working with each other, because they always seem like they're having a blast in their scenes.

 

Anyway, so Hook is now Dark One Hook, and unlike Emma, he seems to have just gone into full-blown evil mode.  Just wants flat-out revenge on Rumple and feels like Emma is nothing but an "anchor", holding him down.  Sure, that catalyst was Emma trying to hide Excalibur from him, which admittedly wasn't the best idea in the end, but that's still a lame way for him to go this far off the deep end.  And I don't think being the Dark One makes you a liar, so some of what he said had to be his real feelings.  Normally, I would think this means they are done for, but this show being the way it is, they'll probably excuse it, which, whatever.  I really don't care.  Considering how many characters who are even worse get a pass, I'm fine handwaving this, when the time comes for it.

 

Speaking of characters getting pass, Emma finally channels me (and at least a few other viewers), and points out how ridiculous it is that she keeps getting all this shit, while Regina and Rumple practically get parades for not killing anyone that day.  But, of course, Henry brushes it all off by being all "They changed, so hell yeah, they're better then you!"  Sure, they totally changed.  You know, when Regina is gleefully bring up her body-count to one-up her sis.  Or Rumple always sliding back into his old habits, and then making a sad face when he gets busted.  What the fuck ever, Henry.  I'd rather you admit that you just play favorites or expect better from Emma.  But you can drop this whole "They change!" bullshit, fast.  Only time they ever change is when they feel guilty for a second, but they sure go back to their old ways quickly, and I'm sure it will happen again.

 

Zelena gets visitation rights for her baby.  Aww?  Really have no idea what I'm suppose to make of this entire debacle.

 

Merida is back to being her obnoxious self in this episode, but at least she got taken out like a putz, so I didn't have to put up with that for too long.

 

Hey, a Lancelot sighting!  Yay, Lancelot!

 

For some reason, Arthur was cracking me up in his one scene.  I think it was because all the guy had time to do was go "What the hell is the sword doing her again?", followed by "Oh, fuck!  This isn't good!", to the curse wave coming their way.  The actor would do pretty good in a disaster movie; he's got a great "Something bad is heading our way!" look to him.

 

Random note: finally realized that I've seen Elliot Knight/Merlin before.  He was totally on that short-lived Sinbad show as the lead.  And funnily enough, while Sinbad could be a naive twit at times, I think I still would trust him more then Merlin.  Merlin just doesn't seem to be all that bright for an all-powerful wizard.  Especially now that he's dead.

 

Fun seeing Nimue again.  This Caroline Ford is really impressing me.

 

So, the grand plan is that Dark One Hook has open a portal to Hell (of course he did), and now all the Dark Ones are back and ready to raise hell.  I wonder if this is just going to consist of Hook, Nimue, Head Rumple, and a bunch of faceless minions, or if they are actually going to shell out the bucks to bring back Brad Dourif (remember him?!  He was the Dark One that Rumple got his powers from!)

[Dianthus]

I was really hoping Emma would give Regina the same kind of look Hook gave Robin in 5.1 (you know the one I mean) after delivering her hope/stupid line. A look that said "I will rip out your tongue by its roots if you so much as open your toxic spew-hole." Sadly, this did not happen.

[Mathius]

But, of course, Henry brushes it all off by being all "They changed, so hell yeah, they're better then you!"  Sure, they totally changed.  You know, when Regina is gleefully bring up her body-count to one-up her sis.  Or Rumple always sliding back into his old habits, and then making a sad face when he gets busted.

 

Also, Rumple totally hasn't changed.  He KNOWS Hook was turned into a Dark One against his will, he KNOWS how painful it is to hold the darkness within you, but does he attempt trying to show Hook anything remotely resembling empathy?  Nope, he makes a crack about taking his other hand, then says nothing would give him more pleasure than killing him but he'll instead leave him alive to suffer in shame...pretty similar to why he left him alive back in 2x04.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Mathius

[getOffMyLawn]

Stuff from the spoiler thread that was not spoiler related:

It's sort of a weirdly resistant to the plot accusation to say that Hook is 'one bad day' from going evil. That's not the plot in play. In the plot, he chose to die rather than 'go evil'. The plot explicitly states that the Dark One' thing was forced on him (yes, with cause, but it was still against his will). It's like blaming a drunk person for low alcohol tolerance after someone forcibly poured alcohol down his throat.

Except the darkness isn’t alcohol. It’s funny you speak of oversimplifying things when you’ve just done so by comparing what Hook is experiencing to a drunk with low alcohol tolerance being given more alcohol, because that’s not what’s going on. That, IMO, is some mighty fine sugarcoating.

The darkness isn’t candy, alcohol, or some sort of narcotic. It’s evil incarnate and from what I’m seeing on screen, what it does to those it’s bound to is that it tempts them to do evil. It’s presses them with a lot of temptation and it’s the OUAT world’s equivalent to the actual Devil whispering in their ear and forcing their hand to some degree, but it’s not an alcoholic beverage. If you make the comparison that Hook is a drunk or addict, then what your really saying by claiming he was addicted to the darkness is that he was an addict to (and possibly liked) hurting and murdering people. That’s what his darkness is — hurting, revenge, and killing — and that’s the connection that’s being made. Hook’s centuries spent in the darkness weren’t spent addicted to LSD, but spent plotting revenge, causing others pain, and murdering.

Going by what I got from episode 5x08, Hook essentially has a bloodlust. The depths of his darkness, as recounted by him in 5x08, is new to us the people in the audience (it's new to me, anyway), but that’s what the writers are presenting: A darkly violent, murderous man. In that recount of his history, Hook murdered a man simply because he drank his wine, for crying out loud. He got some sort of satisfaction or quenched his thirst for violence by hurting and killing people. And that temptation for violence isn’t going to go away just because the darkness leaves Hook because such temptation is around everyone, everywhere, everyday. The Dark One darkness is an amped up version of that everyday temptation, but not everyday is as good as the best one. Bad, out of the ordinary things happen that aggravate and push our buttons, and given that Hook couldn’t keep his shit together for longer than two mississippis, then yes IMO, he is one really bad day away from hurting and killing those around him even without the Dark One’s darkness in him. I still remember the guy that locked up and tortured Archie for info on Rumpel and also shot Belle. It was good that he regretted and apologized (begrudgingly to Belle) for that, but that he now quickly, with a push from the darkness, went straight for Emma's jugular here? Well, that's a big problem for me. Not even Rumpel purposefully went after Belle to hurt her.... Unless Dark Hook has some super secret plan for good, then IMO the writers have made a hash out of Hook’s character.

[Curio]

I'm kind of shocked this episode wasn't well-received. Maybe it's because I've been without Internet for the past week, so I haven't been as spoiled? Then again, I'm a sucker for all things Hook related, and after the Hook draught in 4B, I will never complain about an episode that features him prominently. I mean, this episode was worth the ticket price for Colin's acting alone. He knew exactly what he was doing with every small detail, like the way he twirled his fingers, pointed, furrowed his eyebrows, smirked, or used a different vocal inflection. I loved Merlin (okay, I think I like Elliot Knight more than I like Merlin), but even during the scene where his heart was crushed, I couldn't take my eyes off the way Colin acted right before the final squeeze. There's a slight flinch and his eyes get more intense, never losing eyesight with Emma's face. Screw most of the plot holes, I'll gladly re-watch this episode for the acting nuances alone.

 

And honestly, this episode is the "Shattered Sight" episode we deserved last year. Hook dropping truth bombs on Emma is what the Shattered Sight spell would have done if it had affected Hook, except the only difference here is that instead of everything being resolved at the end of the episode and everyone just laughing it off like one big Marx Brothers joke and hugging in the middle of the street, this is deathly serious. That's exactly what we had hoped for last year, but now that we have it this year, it's too much? Personally, I'm all for Dark Hook getting to actually act dark instead of the writers chickening out like they did with Emma.

 

Ideally, it would be nice if Hook is secretly playing some kind of long con to double-cross Nimue (because there were plenty of plot holes in this episode to suggest that), but oddly, I'm okay with Hook just being a mean asshole right now. Emma forced him into this situation, he's being manipulated by darkness, and let's be real, most of the cruel things he said in this episode were all based in truth. So if Snow and Regina can laugh about nearly killing each other and saying nasty things while under the influence of magic during the Shattered Sight spell, then these people should be able to forgive Killian for the nasty things he's currently doing while under the influence of magic. If not, then they're all Henrys.

 

Except the darkness isn’t alcohol. It’s funny you speak of oversimplifying things when you’ve just done so by comparing what Hook is experiencing to a drunk with low alcohol tolerance being given more alcohol, because that’s not what’s going on.

 

The comparison to alcohol is simplifying things because there's no true comparison we can make to the real world in this situation because the real world obviously doesn't have magic. We've been shown on screen that the Dark One's darkness is a physical substance that enters the body and alters the personality of the host. The host still keeps their general core traits and desires, but their darker tendencies are amplified, and oftentimes, the things they say or do are completely different than how they would behave if they weren't a Dark One. The simplest comparison to a real-world substance we can look at for us to better understand what Emma, Rumple, and Hook are going through is a physical substance like alcohol that can do exactly what was just described. It's not a perfect metaphor, but it's one of the few real-world things we can compare the magical darkness to.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Curio

[getOffMyLawn]

The comparison to alcohol is simplifying things because there's no true comparison we can make to the real world in this situation because the real world obviously doesn't have magic.

Except Hook's original descent into darkness wasn't because of magic. He chose to become a murdering asshole. There's actually real world examples of that, in the real world, that have nothing to do with addiction. He grew to enjoy hurting and bullying others sans magic. That's not out of the ordinary. We don't have to come up with analogies for that kind of shitty behavior. Violent, murdering assholes exist in the real world. And that's Hook's very real world darkness. That Hook's temptations to return to that violent way of being now happened by magical means is beyond a direct 1:1 real world comparison, but it's not so crazy or difficult to think that a person that has a serious problem with violence and a long history of murder, is then released from wherever they were put so they would stop killing and hurting won't then at some point come across a situation where they're pushed towards that violent way of life again. Sticking with the drug/alcohol addiction comparison, that Hook is some recovering alcoholic, IMO is deceptive. He's not addicted to alcohol, which yes is bad and ruins lives, but he's addicted to violence and hurting people which IMO is worse. IMO it's an entirely different kettle of fish. That his return to those violent ways happened at lightspeed makes it highly problematic for me. Like I said before, unless he's running a long con for the sake of goodness, this Dark Hook arc is a fail for me.

Edited December 1, 2015 by getOffMyLawn

[Curio]

Except Hooks original descent into darkness wasn't because of magic. He chose to become a murdering asshole. There's actually real world examples of that, in the real world, that have nothing to do with addiction.

 

Yes, and no one is denying that. The alcohol comparison is only describing his behavior in this particular episode that he has the Dark One goop inside of him. Everything he did centuries ago is on him personally, but his current amplified behavior is what the metaphor was going at.

[shipperx]

Stuff from the spoiler thread that was not spoiler related:

Except the darkness isn’t alcohol. It’s funny you speak of oversimplifying things when you’ve just done so by comparing what Hook is experiencing to a drunk with low alcohol tolerance being given more alcohol, because that’s not what’s going on. That, IMO, is some mighty fine sugarcoating.

It's called an analogy for a reason. I'm not saying that magic is literally like crack. I'll leave that sort of thing to Darth Willow. The point is that what happened in both cases was not voluntary. That he has low tolerance for exposure does not expunge the fact that he was opposed to the exposure, to the point that he explicitly states that he'd rather die. Repeat, he was willing to die to avoid becoming the dark one and then the dark one was forced on him and now he's 'blamed' for not resisting enough? For having weakness when exposed to the very thing he prefer dying to being exposed to? You're placing all blame in a REaction. That hardly seemed fair when he not only never asked for this, he point blank said he'd rather die.

He isn't without weakness, but it is frankly strange to compare being forced to accept something he said he'd rather die than have forced on him to a bad day in traffic-- which was what my quote was responding to.

The darkness isn’t candy, alcohol, or some sort of narcotic. It’s evil incarnate

Exactly! And it was forced on him when he said he'd rather die. But it was forced on him anyway.

Having 'evil incarnate' forced on you against you will is several magnitudes beyond 'a bad day in traffic'.

When you would rather die than have something forced on you it isn't something happeneng at the drop of a hat or because you had a bad day. It is an extreme event where something horrific was forced on you against your will-- in this case, in your words, evil incarnate

So the analogy stands-- you don't blame someone for a low tolerance for alcohol when they had it forcibly poured down their throat.

It's not about likening magic to a drug it is about force and blaming who something was forced upon as though they hadn't resisted. As if they are as culpable as if they had chosen this path rather than having the situation forced upon them.

I think where you are getting derailed is in thinking that the analogy compares Dark One to alcohol. That isn't the point (and I'm not doing that). The point is that blaming someone for weakness in how they react to a situation that is forced on them is blaming them for the wrong darn thing. It's victim blaming (in a localized context ... And before I'm accused of condoning murder or some hyperbolic argument like that, I'm not. I never said that Hook is wholly victim in this or that he bears no responsibility for his actions. He has made choices and he bears responsibility for consequences for. HIS. choices. But there are also mitigating circumstances in that the situation and context were forced on him against his will... and comparing it to a bad day in traffic is such a reductive argument that it's just misses the mark for me in a very big way.

Hook is neither wholly victim nor solely responsible. It's possible for it to be somewhere between two polar extremes. So arguments based as only one or the other feel both specious and oversimplified to me.

Edited December 1, 2015 by shipperx

[getOffMyLawn]

Yes, and no one is denying that. The alcohol comparison is only describing his behavior in this particular episode that he has the Dark One goop inside of him. Everything he did centuries ago is on him personally, but his current amplified behavior is what the metaphor was going at.

What I'm saying is that the darkness while magical in nature, it is still at it's core just evil temptation. It's amped up by magical means, but it's a temptation to do evil that exist anywhere and everywhere. Temptation to do evil isn't unique to their magical universe. So given that Hook was pushed over the edge so quickly to make my head spin by magical induced temptation, it's not difficult to imagine that given a no good, rotten day where shit just goes completely wrong for Hook, that he could loose his shit and go evil again. Heck, really no good, rotten days are what caused him to go real bad to begin with, no magic darkness sharing his headspace was needed. And just last season Rumpel merely conned Hook into believing he had an evil hand and Hook was right back to wanting to beat the crap out of people, and now just telling Hook he's got the darkness in him made him loose it.

(The writers are establishing a weird pattern here -- as long as you don't know you've got evil incarnate inside you, or an evil hand, or evil organs the evil has no effect on you. Ignorance isn't bliss for these writers, Ignorance is Goodness. Hmm. Seeing as they like to write most of the heroes as stupid, I think I'm starting to see how their minds work)

 

ETA

I think where you are getting derailed is in thinking that the analogy compares Dark One to alcohol. That isn't the point (and I'm not doing that). The point is that blaming someone for weakness in how they react to a situation that is forced on them is blaming them for the wrong darn thing.

Unless you can control the universe situations get forced on people all the damn time. I don't expect or demand perfection and don't blame them for the situation they get put in, but their reaction is up to them. And if Hook's reaction when he has a bad day whether magically induced or not is to start beating people up or maybe even killing them then that's his damn problem. That he caved in no time flat to the darkness is the problem I have here. I don't doubt that just about anyone would eventually give in, but that fast? To me that calls into question the efficacy of his redemption. You can belittle my opinion all you want but it's how I see it. I agree to disagree and I'm going to go back to lurking now.

Edited December 1, 2015 by getOffMyLawn

[Rumsy4]

I'm kind of shocked this episode wasn't well-received. Maybe it's because I've been without Internet for the past week, so I haven't been as spoiled? Then again, I'm a sucker for all things Hook related, and after the Hook draught in 4B, I will never complain about an episode that features him prominently. I mean, this episode was worth the ticket price for Colin's acting alone. He knew exactly what he was doing with every small detail, like the way he twirled his fingers, pointed, furrowed his eyebrows, smirked, or used a different vocal inflection. I loved Merlin (okay, I think I like Elliot Knight more than I like Merlin), but even during the scene where his heart was crushed, I couldn't take my eyes off the way Colin acted right before the final squeeze. There's a slight flinch and his eyes get more intense, never losing eyesight with Emma's face. Screw most of the plot holes, I'll gladly re-watch this episode for the acting nuances alone.

 

And honestly, this episode is the "Shattered Sight" episode we deserved last year. Hook dropping truth bombs on Emma is what the Shattered Sight spell would have done if it had affected Hook, except the only difference here is that instead of everything being resolved at the end of the episode and everyone just laughing it off like one big Marx Brothers joke and hugging in the middle of the street, this is deathly serious. That's exactly what we had hoped for last year, but now that we have it this year, it's too much? Personally, I'm all for Dark Hook getting to actually act dark instead of the writers chickening out like they did with Emma.

 

Ideally, it would be nice if Hook is secretly playing some kind of long con to double-cross Nimue (because there were plenty of plot holes in this episode to suggest that), but oddly, I'm okay with Hook just being a mean asshole right now. Emma forced him into this situation, he's being manipulated by darkness, and let's be real, most of the cruel things he said in this episode were all based in truth. 

 

I love your entire post, and would marry it if I could. I've completely turned around in my perception of the episode with my rewatch. What is the point of having high stakes, if there is no follow-through? It makes every half-season arc a joke. I know what you mean about Hook's facial expressions when he crushed Merlin's heart. He was a magnificent asshole. In fact, I want him to just be an asshole right now. I don't think he was pushing Emma to hate him "for her own good" so she would feel "forced" to kill him and be okay with that. That infantalizes Emma, just like Neal and August did. Right now, he is furious with her for making him the Dark One and taking choices away from him. So, he is lashing out.

 

The Darkness is distorting and amplifying all emotions, but his frustrations with Emma have a real core from his perspective. A lot of viewers were calling Killian a boring puppy dog in Season 4. The writers are finally addressing his insecurities. I hate that Emma is being hurt in the process, but I don't believe this is going to be an unforgivable obstacle in their relationship. Hook said--whatever you did to me, I forgive you already. He will remember that. And so will Emma. Because, to get biblical, love forgives all sins.

And there will be consequences both Hook and Emma will be paying for giving in to Darkness in different ways. So, none of this is going to be swept under the rug. Because you know--they are not Rumple or Regina. 

 

So if Snow and Regina can laugh about nearly killing each other and saying nasty things while under the influence of magic during the Shattered Sight spell, then these people should be able to forgive Killian for the nasty things he's currently doing while under the influence of magic.

 

Especially as Hook has made many sacrifices for the heroes by now. And in many little ways, he has helped Emma mend her relationship with he parents. So, this one act should not erase everything that went before, especially since he was forced into it.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Rumsy4