S05.E08: Birth

[YaddaYadda]

That's what I heard.

 

So, any guesses on what the heck Emma was doing with Excalibur out on the front lawn? Did she put a protection spell over the house and trap Snow, Charming, and Regina there too?

 

They looked frozen as well. When Emma did that, Regina stopped blinking.

 

So Zelena was 8 weeks pregnant, and the baby was already kicking? 

 

Actually, I'm just trying to figure out the timeline on this one, because I'm masochist that way. I'm pretty sure it doesn't fit.

 

Or maybe Zelena was barely pregnant when she was returned to Storybrooke. With the ultrasound and the kicking, I thought she was out of her 1st trimester.

Edited November 19, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[kili]

Did Robin say Zelena was 2 months pregnant?

If they spent 6 weeks in Camelot and were back for a week that pretty much means she got pregnant the day that Regina showed up in New York. Too bad she didn't call in advance or this stupid plot may have been avoided all together.

 

And they had the ultrasound at 7 weeks....that's a little early. I guess they were worried about all the magic. 

 

With the ultrasound and the kicking, I thought she was out of her 1st trimester.

Yes, that's what I thought too.  

[YaddaYadda]

Worst part is, they could've made the whole a tad more than 3 months pregnant work. 

 

Zelena was in NYC 9 weeks before Regina came to get Robin, then the 6 weeks in Camelot. 

[Mari]

Once more, math is one of our show's downfalls.

[Camera One]

So, any guesses on what the heck Emma was doing with Excalibur out on the front lawn? 

 

Yardwork?

[Shanna Marie]

So, any guesses on what the heck Emma was doing with Excalibur out on the front lawn?

 

Yardwork?

Well, if anything cut with it automatically dies, it makes weeding a lot easier, and permanent. Not that Merlin would bother to warn anyone about this before they used it to trim the prized rose bushes.

[Curio]

I happened upon this gif, and I don't know why, but it's making me laugh more than it should. Everyone in the diner is kind of staring blankly at Hook and Emma on the ground, but then there's Robin off in the corner with his hands over his mouth and face like, "omgomgomg you guys this is really bad!" I'd like Robin's character a lot more if he kept doing things like this where he's the only one who properly freaks out over every Storybrooke crisis, whereas everyone else seems pretty jaded by it now.

[ComfySweater]

I'm still not over where she hurt Henry for her boyfriend. Really? You toss over your kid for a guy? Ouch.

[Serena]

I'm still not over where she hurt Henry for her boyfriend. Really? You toss over your kid for a guy? Ouch.

I mean... yes? I think getting a 12 year old friendzoned to save a man's life - a man who repeatedly risked his life to save said 12 year old - is something pretty much anyone would do. Hurt feelings mend, death is permanent (usually). But actually - she did the "hurt Henry" thing before Hook was in any danger, so she actually did that to save Merlin from the tree and it had nothing to do with Hook.

[YaddaYadda]

I'm still not over where she hurt Henry for her boyfriend. Really? You toss over your kid for a guy? Ouch.

What she did with Henry had absolutely nothing to do with Hook, and everything to do with Merlin, and getting him out of his prison.

Edited November 21, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[HoodlumSheep]

I happened upon this gif, and I don't know why, but it's making me laugh more than it should. Everyone in the diner is kind of staring blankly at Hook and Emma on the ground, but then there's Robin off in the corner with his hands over his mouth and face like, "omgomgomg you guys this is really bad!" I'd like Robin's character a lot more if he kept doing things like this where he's the only one who properly freaks out over every Storybrooke crisis, whereas everyone else seems pretty jaded by it now.

I love this too. Must be those Captain Hood feels! Robin's upset he's losing his new bestie!

No, I really appreciate Sean for showing Robin actually emoting during that scene compared to everyone else. While the others managed to seem cold-hearted, he actually seemed worried. Same with that scene in 5x01 after Emma got sucked into the sky. He was looking up in the sky wondering what could have possibly been happening to Emma while everyone else was already arguing.

[InsertWordHere]

I'm still not over where she hurt Henry for her boyfriend. Really? You toss over your kid for a guy? Ouch.

That happened before Emma did anything to save Hook. She did what she did to Henry so she could get Merlin out of the tree and it wasn't supposed to be a good thing. It was supposed to show that she was struggling with the darkness. 

[PixiePaws1]

Parallels. ..throwbacks. ..gotta love 'em

5x08: The DO killed the woman I loved ~Merlin

4x01: Unless some monster comes along and kills me ~Killian

[Writing Wrongs]

What was the snow globe Gold had and why did Hook have it when he left the shop?

[Randomosity]

... he was wandering around for the rest of the episode with a snow globe in his pocket.

 

Was that a snow globe in his pocket or was he just happy to see Emma? :P

[Eolivet]

Finally got around to seeing this.

 

As I'm not the biggest Emma/Hook shipper, but I do love wordplay and linguistic twists, I will give credit to the writers for seemingly having Hook projecting all his (subconscious) feelings about being the Dark One whenever he spoke to Emma this season ("that you isn't here, Dark One," etc.). I was wondering why he wasn't calling her Emma in practically any of their scenes, and now I have a feeling that rewatching them again would have some really interesting insight. In every scene that he talks to the "Dark One," he could be talking to Emma or it could be his subconscious talking to himself. I love ambiguity like that.

 

Also kudos to the wardrobe department -- I was wondering why they were putting on the guyliner with a trowel this season, but it makes the Dark One more striking.

 

What a fascinating twist. It's like The Gift of the Magi (I will die to prevent you from becoming dark/I will turn you dark to prevent you from dying), but with...dark magic?

[darkestboy]

Easily the best of the two. Had I not been spoiled for it, Hook being one of the Dark Ones would've been great but it did actually play out well on screen and did explain most of Emma's actions over the last few episodes.

 

I do like that having a baby hasn't changed Zelena one bit. She really does enjoy being wicked and so on.

 

I even thought Emma's plan into making her a vessel for the Dark One was potentially reckless though.

 

Emma and Regina had some great moments on screen together and it was nice to see Whale again, even though I hadn't terribly missed him, 8/10

[Camera One]

I was watching the promo for this episode since I always avoid them so I don't hear spoilers.
https://twitter.com/OnceABC/status/664227790363959296

 

Voiceover: Emma's dark plan will finally be exposed... startling revelations that will splinter their world like never before." 

 

Accompanied by slow-mo of random characters like Merida.  

 

Oh LOL.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Camera One

[AudienceofOne]

Just got around to watching this (and about to watch part two so not spoiled). I thought this episode was extremely strong, although I admit being extremely confused as to why and how Hook became a Dark One. Kind of got lost a bit there - probably just blinked and missed some mythology.

[YaddaYadda]

Just got around to watching this (and about to watch part two so not spoiled). I thought this episode was extremely strong, although I admit being extremely confused as to why and how Hook became a Dark One. Kind of got lost a bit there - probably just blinked and missed some mythology.

No, you didn't blink and miss anything.

 

This falls under the category "wouldn't it be cool if?" and then proceed to confuse the hell out of everyone. 

 

I think this arc proves that the writers never thought about the Dark One's mythology until this season. 

[KingOfHearts]

Just finished rewatching this episode and I'm going to jump on the bandwagon - it was easily the best episode of S5. The flow, utilization of characters and the viewer engagement were all wonderful. It hit a lot of right notes and its flaws were by-and-large forgivable. The only scene that turned me off was the one with Regina and the dagger. I didn't know what to blame: Regina or the writers' lack of direction. It didn't seem like they had any idea what they wanted to do with her. One second she was Emma's friend and the next a psychopath betrayer. Somehow we were supposed to see her as doing the right thing, but the mixed signals said otherwise. Other than that, Zelena was amazing and the Captain Swan angst on par.

[Curio]

4 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

The only scene that turned me off was the one with Regina and the dagger. I didn't know what to blame: Regina or the writers' lack of direction. It didn't seem like they had any idea what they wanted to do with her. One second she was Emma's friend and the next a psychopath betrayer. Somehow we were supposed to see her as doing the right thing, but the mixed signals said otherwise.

Agreed, that's the only scene that bothers me in an otherwise fantastic episode. The commentary for the episode and that particular scene makes it worse because the writer raves about how he loves that scene and how it shows how great of a friend Regina is and it shows how far Regina and Emma have come in their "friendship." But when Snow and Emma did the same thing, they were presented in a negative light. The power of the REC...

[YaddaYadda]

I think this episodes connects with a lot of other episodes actually, like it doesn't exist in a vacuum. When Emma in 4x22 tells Regina that she just watched the man she loves die, they actually circle back to that conversation during the scene where they light the Promethean flame. It connects to 5x02 and the price of magic that Emma said she would pay because she wanted to be a different Dark One. It connects to 5x03 and that scene on the ship where Killian tells Emma he "loved" her, and then recognizes that Emma isn't just the Dark One, she's also Emma when Snow and Regina are dismissive of that in the same episode.

It's a really good episode, and I don't understand why they can't do that all the time.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

It's a really good episode, and I don't understand why they can't do that all the time.

The catch is that it takes several crappy episodes to get there. A&E have to do plenty of craptastic dawdling before they set the stage for something as awesome as 5x08. It's worlds better than anything else I've seen so far in 5A.

Edited September 12, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

Taken at face value, this is a good episode that's quite gripping. Colin just went to town with his performance, ratcheting the angst and passion up to 11 (though there were a few weird moments with his accent where he suddenly went very Cockney for a few words). The twist really was shocking. There were some lovely scenes.

But I really don't feel like they set up that twist well. Yes, it was shocking, but Emma's actions through the arc don't fit what we learned she was trying to do. Even in this episode, when the writers surely knew what was going on, she was still pulling the guilt trips on Hook for not accepting her the way she is and for saying he loved her. All her weirdness was what led him to start digging. If she hadn't acted so much like she thought he was failing her, maybe he wouldn't have been so intense and curious and he wouldn't have got in the way of her plans. Her goal and her actions don't fit. Her actions seemed more about creating the scenes they wanted rather than about carrying out her plan.

And I still don't get how Merlin had enough darkness in him to make Hook a Dark One when he was tethered to the sword. Merlin was being forced to act, which shouldn't have turned his power dark. Then again, Merlin does seem to have been the real villain of the show, so maybe he was dark, after all.

And the unhealing wound thing still makes no sense. If that wound would have been as fatal as it was when it suddenly reopened, wouldn't it have been that bad when he first got it? It was just a scratch that didn't seem to bother Hook, not the gaping wound making him bleed out. But they did a good job on the makeup since in the field, he really did look that kind of waxy pale he'd have from bleeding out -- or is that just Irish skin?

As with so many things on this show, there's a kernel of something really good here, and the cast elevates it, but it's woefully underdeveloped.

[andromeda331]

The twist was good. But made zero sense. Nothing Emma did made any sense. 

[Camera One]

5 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

The twist was good. But made zero sense. Nothing Emma did made any sense. 

The story of this show.  As usual, by Episode 8, the viewer has been pulled in so many directions and been thrown so many characters and red herrings that most viewers would be unlikely to tell the twist doesn't explain any of Dark Swan's actions.

[Shanna Marie]

6 minutes ago, Camera One said:

As usual, by Episode 8, the viewer has been pulled in so many directions and been thrown so many characters and red herrings that most viewers would be unlikely to tell the twist doesn't explain any of Dark Swan's actions.

I guess if you're not paying attention and not doing a rewatch, you might not be as bothered by the fact that nothing fit, expect even in this episode Emma is still moaning about Hook not being willing to accept her as Dark One.

And it's so very This Show that the thing that turned Emma into the Really Dark One was trying to save someone's life. Not murder, not ripping out a teenage girl's heart to force her to break her son's heart. But saving a life. I guess that's the most evil thing you could do, other than telling a secret.

[andromeda331]

14 minutes ago, Camera One said:

The story of this show.  As usual, by Episode 8, the viewer has been pulled in so many directions and been thrown so many characters and red herrings that most viewers would be unlikely to tell the twist doesn't explain any of Dark Swan's actions.

Yes it is.

[andromeda331]

1 minute ago, Shanna Marie said:

I guess if you're not paying attention and not doing a rewatch, you might not be as bothered by the fact that nothing fit, expect even in this episode Emma is still moaning about Hook not being willing to accept her as Dark One.

And it's so very This Show that the thing that turned Emma into the Really Dark One was trying to save someone's life. Not murder, not ripping out a teenage girl's heart to force her to break her son's heart. But saving a life. I guess that's the most evil thing you could do, other than telling a secret.

Saving someone's life? Evil Pure evil. Unless its Regina or Rumple. Murder a mass murderer? Evil. Pure evil. It'll put a dark spot on your heart. Killing in self defense? Evil! Pure Evil! Be a mass murder? That's okay! Cause your cool! Or have issues! Or cool! No one cares how many people you've murdered and everyone else should be jumping to help you with anything and everything you want. Are you a villain who maybe once decided not to kill someone? Then your a hero! Are you a villain who killed someone who advanced your plans but may have saved other people? Your a hero! That's so fucked up.  

[Shanna Marie]

I guess Emma could have been trying to keep Hook so off-balance and upset by ragging on him about rejecting her that he would interpret his inability to sleep as being because he was so upset and wouldn't notice that he was the Dark One, while if she'd pretended to have been saved he might have noticed that he wasn't sleeping, but if that was the case, they needed to have called more attention to it. I don't think it would have spoiled the twist to have had someone say a few episodes ago, "Hey, you look awful. When's the last time you got any sleep?" and then Hook run a hand through his messy hair, messing it up even more, and say, "I can't sleep. I can't stop thinking about how we must have failed Emma and how we might be able to save her." For a bonus red herring, have him start to look frazzled in the flashbacks even before the darkening and have him comment about how Emma's not sleeping, and that means he can't sleep because he feels like he needs to be looking out for her. Then it wouldn't remotely be a case of "He's not sleeping, and you know who doesn't sleep? Dark Ones. Get it?" It's just "Hook has trouble sleeping when he's worried about Emma." But we could look back on it and realize that it was also because he was a Dark One.

But I think they failed in the setup, in general. It doesn't make sense for him to have Merlin's power and immortality put into him and him be a Dark One. He should have been the next Merlin. Merlin never killed anyone. He didn't want to do the bad things he did with his power. He fought it with every fiber of his being and almost succeeded in resisting. How does that become Dark One darkness? Logically, it would have ended up being Hook as the new Merlin squaring off against Emma as Dark One, with Nimue trying to take control of Emma so she could battle against MerlinHook, but then the situation resolving because Emma and Hook are more on the same page than Merlin and Nimue were and can work together, with both of them willing to ditch the power and immortality.

Instead, it's This Show, so we had Emma sacrificing herself to save the town from the Darkness and getting "rewarded" by being psychologically tormented and criticized, no matter what she did, then going deeper into darkness because she saved someone's life. And Hook got "rewarded" for saving Snow's life and stopping Arthur's evil scheme by getting a mortal wound that can't be healed and being turned into a Dark One.

Meanwhile, her family is willing to believe that she would do a spell to snuff out all light magic -- and they keep believing that even though it was Arthur who told them that in the first place and they know Arthur is crooked and a liar. The whole bunch of them is willing to rally to help Regina avoid any consequences from her mass slaughter and help her save Robin, but Emma is the worst evil, they believe the worst of her, and they don't do anything to try to help her (but I guess Snow gets partial credit for refusing to kill her?). Bonus that all this happened largely because Regina was a total jerk to Zelena so that Zelena turned on them and helped Arthur, but the consequences landed on Hook and Emma.

[Camera One]

The solution to put the darkness in Zelena and then kill her was a great plan, just like Snow's ingenious method of killing Cora.  But instead, the heroes are guilted for giving the villains actual consequences.

[profdanglais]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Logically, it would have ended up being Hook as the new Merlin squaring off against Emma as Dark One, with Nimue trying to take control of Emma so she could battle against MerlinHook, but then the situation resolving because Emma and Hook are more on the same page than Merlin and Nimue were and can work together, with both of them willing to ditch the power and immortality.

That would have been great. If Emma using Merlin's power to save Hook killed Merlin, that could arguably send Emma Full Dark, and leave Hook with the power to counter her and end perhaps with the darkness and light being blended and shared between the two of them. But then we wouldn't have had the millionth retread of Hook vs Rumple or the Underworld (both of which I could frankly have lived without). 

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

The solution to put the darkness in Zelena and then kill her was a great plan, just like Snow's ingenious method of killing Cora.  But instead, the heroes are guilted for giving the villains actual consequences.

It is a great plan. I hate that not one person wanted to stop and think about it. They finally have a way to get rid of the Dark One power that has been plaguing them for centuries, killing and ruining so many lives. And yet not one person wants to consider it? Really? Hook doesn't want to consider it? Belle doesn't want to considering since it means her "Rumple" will finally no longer be bad. Blue? Blue doesn't want to try it? Oh, no they all jump on the no train. I'm sorry but a lot of people would want to consider it and a lot more probably would want to do it if not try to do it if it meant a chance to get rid of Dark One powers forever. 

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

It is a great plan. I hate that not one person wanted to stop and think about it. They finally have a way to get rid of the Dark One power that has been plaguing them for centuries, killing and ruining so many lives. And yet not one person wants to consider it?

I can see them being a bit squeamish about it. Cora was an immediate threat who had to be stopped, but Zelena was more of a minor annoyance. She had played some role, in helping Arthur tether Merlin, which led to Hook getting wounded/killed, but I'm not sure that quite earns her being filled with the Darkness and then being killed.

But you know what a good plan would have been? Using Rumple as the vessel. He'd murdered to become the Dark One, had done all kinds of evil in however long he'd had that power, had constantly schemed to get even more power, had brought the Darkness back into town even though he knew it was a danger, which was what set all this off in the first place. If anyone deserved it, it was him. It would have been fitting and appropriate for him to have been filled with the Darkness and then killed. He had it coming.

Spoiler

And then he proved he had it coming when he hijacked Hook's sacrifice so he could become the Dark One again.

From outside the show, I can see why they didn't do that, since they wanted to keep Rumple around, but there needed to be some explanation why the characters didn't consider it. I'd have thought Emma would have gone there first rather than going to Zelena. That should have been plan A, and then he escaped, so she went to Zelena as plan B. It being This Show, just about everyone other than Hook probably still would have objected to using Rumple. Hook would have been conflicted but probably still would have objected on the grounds of what it might do to Emma to do something so horrible.

Spoiler

Though I'm not sure why her having to kill Hook was any better for her. Still, this show. I guess it makes a difference that Hook was a willing sacrifice rather than it being forced on him the way it would have been with Rumple.

[Camera One]

They can't sacrifice Henry's beloved grandpa!  But yeah, for sure, Rumple would have been the best candidate.  Though I suppose they were buying the whole "His heart is born again and pure as driven snow" crap which was basically BS 

Spoiler

as we found out 3 episodes later.

Emma might haven chosen Zelena as well for her past crimes of murdering Marian, etc., and she was the only major "villain" in town who hadn't repented and continued on the path of evil.  It's also understandable that Emma would be angry at the person who allowed Arthur the means to hurt Hook (and get Merlin murdered).   Maybe that anger is why Dark Swan was so "shockingly" dark.

I'm surprised Emma couldn't throw the Darkness down a portal or into a Wraith or dilute it with a group hug or whatever.

Edited April 28, 2019 by Camera One

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

I can see them being a bit squeamish about it. Cora was an immediate threat who had to be stopped, but Zelena was more of a minor annoyance. She had played some role, in helping Arthur tether Merlin, which led to Hook getting wounded/killed, but I'm not sure that quite earns her being filled with the Darkness and then being killed.

But you know what a good plan would have been? Using Rumple as the vessel. He'd murdered to become the Dark One, had done all kinds of evil in however long he'd had that power, had constantly schemed to get even more power, had brought the Darkness back into town even though he knew it was a danger, which was what set all this off in the first place. If anyone deserved it, it was him. It would have been fitting and appropriate for him to have been filled with the Darkness and then killed. He had it coming.

  Reveal spoiler

And then he proved he had it coming when he hijacked Hook's sacrifice so he could become the Dark One again.

From outside the show, I can see why they didn't do that, since they wanted to keep Rumple around, but there needed to be some explanation why the characters didn't consider it. I'd have thought Emma would have gone there first rather than going to Zelena. That should have been plan A, and then he escaped, so she went to Zelena as plan B. It being This Show, just about everyone other than Hook probably still would have objected to using Rumple. Hook would have been conflicted but probably still would have objected on the grounds of what it might do to Emma to do something so horrible.

  Reveal spoiler

Though I'm not sure why her having to kill Hook was any better for her. Still, this show. I guess it makes a difference that Hook was a willing sacrifice rather than it being forced on him the way it would have been with Rumple.

Your right Rumple would be the perfect candidate. He committed tons of crimes and always went back to it no matter how many times he promised he was changed. I understand a little being squeamish for some to consider to out right murder Zelena. But that everyone is against and they don't stop and talk about it. They finally have a way to get rid of Dark One powers forever. That's huge. That's something they all would want. I can see Snow being against the idea, maybe Charming since it would be murder. I can see Emma or Blue thinking it was worth it to sacrifice one person if it meant getting rid of those powers forever. Grumpy too. Maybe Hook or Blue suggests Rumple instead, since he's always choses it over everyone and everything else, and thinking they've giving him plenty of chances to no avail. Maybe vote on it. Maybe Belle's still against it, maybe Snow is too. Someone asking how they'd feel the next time the Dark powers are used to kill someone or kill a lot of people, and would they regret not getting rid of the powers when they had the chance and maybe that person or someone else wonders if they don't do it does that mean their responsible for the future crimes? Maybe Belle wonders if there's another way that they don't know about since they just learned of this one. Its just crazy that they hear Emma's plan and everyone is against it. There would be some who are for it or at least would want to consider it and talk it over.  

[companionenvy]

This arc is a major reason I just couldn't continue with my rewatch. Because in some respects, season 5 was a return to form after a dreadful 4B. A lot of the ideas are genuinely interesting, both from a character and plot perspective; I think the twist with Hook being a dark one - even if it was a little illogical - really worked. But the moral scales are so woefully unbalanced that I simply can't enjoy it. 

Emma isn't justified in everything she does. But her "evil" deeds - especially in the context of a world in which so many arch-villains have now been accepted as part of team hero -- aren't nearly as bad as they're being portrayed, and I agree that, if the other characters were being written like actual human beings, other people would have agreed with her. It is one thing for Snowing or Henry to be horrified by DO Emma's Slytherin-esque plotting, but her idea of killing one villain for the greater good should have been taken a lot more seriously than it was. It hearkens back to season 2 and the unanimous horror at her suggestion that just maybe letting mass-murderer Regina die to save the town that she herself had imperiled was a better option than hoping for the best. 

That's on top of the absolute unfairness of her situation. I get that life can be unfair. But it isn't always, and it screams of manipulation when a show repeatedly punishes its hero for doing heroic things and blames her for acting like a human in impossible situations while simultaneously letting other characters off the hook for egregious crimes. Worse, it simply isn't enjoyable to watch.

[Shanna Marie]

20 hours ago, Camera One said:

Though I suppose they were buying the whole "His heart is born again and pure as driven snow" crap which was basically BS 

Yeah, like the person who had to have angioplasty after a lifetime of smoking, being sedentary, and living on cheeseburgers is now a health nut because his arteries are now clear.

16 hours ago, companionenvy said:

That's on top of the absolute unfairness of her situation. I get that life can be unfair. But it isn't always, and it screams of manipulation when a show repeatedly punishes its hero for doing heroic things and blames her for acting like a human in impossible situations while simultaneously letting other characters off the hook for egregious crimes. Worse, it simply isn't enjoyable to watch.

It is hard to watch at times. It's so ridiculously unfair. No one blinks an eye about Charming killing Percival for wanting to take out the person who slaughtered his whole village, but Emma is the greatest evil ever for wanting to make a person who was partially responsible for the situation take the fall. And there's the situation that things just keep going badly for Hook and Emma when they do good things. Hook spent a lifetime doing bad things, but when he turns good and tries to save others, he gets killed for it and turned into a Dark One.

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

No one blinks an eye about Charming killing Percival for wanting to take out the person who slaughtered his whole village, but Emma is the greatest evil ever for wanting to make a person who was partially responsible for the situation take the fall.

Stuff like that is just sloppy.  It really makes me question how dense these Writers are to not realize the inconsistency, since it wasn't even necessary to kill off Percival.  

Quote

And there's the situation that things just keep going badly for Hook and Emma when they do good things. Hook spent a lifetime doing bad things, but when he turns good and tries to save others, he gets killed for it and turned into a Dark One.

It is unfair to the characters, but ultimately, the Writers were actually rewarding the actors who play Emma and Hook by giving them meaty, emotional and highly dramatic turmoil to play (and the actors did an awesome job and made it work).  That's a hell of lot more than the actors who get to stand around doing practically nothing except for a run-of-the-mill centric once in a blue corn moon. 

Edited April 28, 2019 by Camera One

[daxx]

This was a good episode in itself but as everyone else has said it doesn’t fit with the rest of the season. Colin’s amazing. I didn’t really care for Jen’s DO voice the whole season so it throws off the performance for me.

[Shanna Marie]

On 4/28/2019 at 5:57 PM, Camera One said:

It is unfair to the characters, but ultimately, the Writers were actually rewarding the actors who play Emma and Hook by giving them meaty, emotional and highly dramatic turmoil to play (and the actors did an awesome job and made it work).  That's a hell of lot more than the actors who get to stand around doing practically nothing except for a run-of-the-mill centric once in a blue corn moon. 

True. It was the kind of writing you expect the writers' favorite characters to get, full of all kinds of juicy scenes, but that's not generally the way this show works. On this show, the favorite characters just get given good stuff for no reason and don't suffer much at all. However, from inside that world, there's zero incentive to be a hero. It just seems to mean that bad things keep happening to you -- and actually happen to you, rather than bad things happening to other people in a way that disrupts your life. And, bonus, heroes get held to a higher standard and aren't allowed to do anything to help themselves or the people they love.

[KAOS Agent]

On 4/29/2019 at 8:54 PM, Shanna Marie said:

However, from inside that world, there's zero incentive to be a hero. It just seems to mean that bad things keep happening to you -- and actually happen to you, rather than bad things happening to other people in a way that disrupts your life. And, bonus, heroes get held to a higher standard and aren't allowed to do anything to help themselves or the people they love.

This is really where the show falls down on heroism. You don't do good things to get a reward, you do good things because it helps people. It might feel good to help people, which is a nice reward on its own, but this show generally punishes people when they do good things. Poor Hook was only trying to help and his reward is to get a small cut that means immediate death followed by immortal darkness engulfing his soul and undoing his hard work to let go of the darkness and become a better person. And there's Emma, who took on the Darkness to save them all, being psychologically tortured and suffering alone and then rejecting all the power offered by the Darkness only to have that moment rendered moot almost immediately because she can't bear to lose yet another loved one and saving the life of someone who was cut by Excalibur makes you evil or something.

Just looking at the events surrounding Emma & Hook, I'll never understand why Regina is constantly upset about her lack of reward for not killing people. Does she never look around and see how awful the heroes' lives are? Why on earth would she think good things will come to her?  

[tennisgurl]

If there is any lesson to be gotten from all of this, its that "even if your a good person or if you are trying to be a better person, your life will still probably suck." Yeah, Regina is TOTALLY the person who suffers the most, you guys! Jen and Colin are both really great in this episode, and I do think Hook being a Dark One along with Emma is a decent twist, but so much of the plot is so confused, and the morality is so painfully skewed, that it hurts all of the parts of the episode that actually works. 

I mean, I can get why killing Zelena in cold blood would make people squeamish, and it would certainly be better if they could find another way to deal with the Dark One stuff, but...anyone have any better ideas? People on this show are always "there has to be a better way!" when someone wants to actually take action against evil, but they never actually seem to offer any other alternatives, nor does the show itself. They just have to wait for some Deus ex Machina to show up and save the day at the last minute, or characters having often random changes of heart. And its all such a double standard, considering how many random mooks and bad guys that the heroes have killed (even poor Percival just a few episodes ago) and that was all fine. But killing one unrepentant murderer and rapist to destroy dark magic forever? Thats simply too far!

It was kind of fun seeing Doctor Whale again, and with his Izombie hair!

[Shanna Marie]

On 5/1/2019 at 2:04 AM, KAOS Agent said:

Just looking at the events surrounding Emma & Hook, I'll never understand why Regina is constantly upset about her lack of reward for not killing people. Does she never look around and see how awful the heroes' lives are? Why on earth would she think good things will come to her?  

I think that's a lot of the problem with this arc. It came right after an entire season built around the concept that villains don't get happy endings (and presumably heroes do?). They sort of ended up proving that wrong with Regina declaring that she writes her own happy ending, but the concept had gone entirely unchallenged by anyone else. We had all the other characters running around trying to help Regina rewrite the rules of the universe to give her an undefined happy ending after her boyfriend went back to his wife (and what a happy ending hero Marian got, huh?), while Rumple was trying to turn Emma dark. And then Emma's reward for resisting darkness was to get filled with darkness and have her boyfriend mortally wounded for defending her mother. While everyone was totally supportive of Regina's quest for a happy ending, they don't seem to care much about Emma. They fully believe that she's going to do a spell to wipe out all light magic, even though it was Arthur who told them that and even after they learned he was a liar. Oh, and Regina getting a ball thrown in her honor for being a fake Savior and getting all gleeful and crazy-eyed about controlling Emma without any of it being a setup for her taking a fall.

I think Emma dealing with the Darkness could have been an interesting arc -- someone who was good at resisting darkness who had no innate darkness. They could have made it an absolute that she can't use magic or the Darkness will get a foothold on her -- but it would have to apply across the board, including with Robin, if she's going to be criticized or turn evil for saving Hook. It would have made an interesting contrast to Rumple, who dove in head-first. I'm even somewhat okay with what happened to Hook because it was a good twist and provided some great angst. But, again, it's the context of everything else that makes it icky. Plus, the lack of logic.