Small Talk: The Polygamous Cul-de-Sac

[MargeGunderson]

Oh, Colonel Brandon! I swoon.

[luvmylabs]

Anyone been up to coyote pass to see if there is any building going on.  We will be in Flagstaff Tuesday...might check it out.

[Meowwww]

So how is Covid in your area?
Wisconsin just tightened up, we have a 24% positive rate.  Not a surprise, everything has been open here.  No one wears masks either, except in Walmart or where it’s required. Never at restaurants, not even walking in or around. It’s been declared restaurants be at 25% occupancy.  It’s not happening here.  
My sister in law, her husband, and their son were recently positive.  Very minor symptoms.  The son had a temp of 100.3 and sore thighs for an hour.  Sister in law had a headache and lost taste and smell.  Her husband had a low grade fever for a few days.  
The board rules prohibit me from posting what I am really pissed about.  
 

[deirdra]

Sore thighs?

[Yeah No]

6 hours ago, Meowwww said:

So how is Covid in your area?
Wisconsin just tightened up, we have a 24% positive rate.  Not a surprise, everything has been open here.  No one wears masks either, except in Walmart or where it’s required. Never at restaurants, not even walking in or around. It’s been declared restaurants be at 25% occupancy.  It’s not happening here.  
My sister in law, her husband, and their son were recently positive.  Very minor symptoms.  The son had a temp of 100.3 and sore thighs for an hour.  Sister in law had a headache and lost taste and smell.  Her husband had a low grade fever for a few days.  
The board rules prohibit me from posting what I am really pissed about.  
 

Yikes!!  What a horrible situation, my sympathies to you as you deal with this.  I hope your family is OK.

My eyes just popped when I looked at the weekly Covid stats for my town.  We had 13 new cases this week, which in my town qualifies as a spike.  Sorry I know that most people out there probably think this is nothing, even in a town of 15,000 people.  We usually only see an increase of 1 or 2 cases if that.  We have only had about 200 cases TOTAL since the start of the pandemic.  Other towns adjoining ours are similar, but in the bigger towns and cities 10+ miles away the numbers are much higher.

I actually had a Covid test done today at my local urgent care.  I should have the results in no more than 3 days.  I've been feeling more sluggish than usual and have felt a huskiness in my chest and raspiness in my throat/voice.  It feels like I'm almost getting a cold but not quite.  I've had these symptoms now for 2 days and they haven't gotten any worse.  Hubbie is feeling fine and is optimistic that I don't have Covid.  Of course I'm not so optimistic.....just my nature.  I will say that sometimes I've felt this way in the Fall and have wondered if it's from some kind of allergy to something.  I've never figured it out.  I have looked at the seasonal allergy reports online and so far they all say everything is at low levels.  I have no fever.  My pulse oximeter reads 98.  So who knows?  Better to get tested.

Plus I've had to go places and do things that I didn't really want to have to do - I had to go to the car dealership last week to pick up a new car - my old one was coming off lease and it was actually cheaper to lease a new one.  Even though they were careful and we practiced social distancing/masks, lysol, sanitizer, gloves, etc. I was still nervous.  Plus my husband's client, who wanted to discuss paying us to house sit for him on an extended basis invited us to lunch outside on the patio at his golf club.  It was not exactly a situation easy to say "no" to - I knew my husband would go without me anyway so I went too.  This client is a friend and we used to have dinner with him at least a few times a year before the pandemic so it would have felt hard for me to say "no", plus if my husband went anyway I might as well go too.

So those things added to my anxiety about what I did in the previous 2 weeks leading up to these symptoms.

Edited October 10, 2020 by Yeah No

[TurtlePower]

10 hours ago, Meowwww said:

So how is Covid in your area?
Wisconsin just tightened up, we have a 24% positive rate.  Not a surprise, everything has been open here.  No one wears masks either, except in Walmart or where it’s required. Never at restaurants, not even walking in or around. It’s been declared restaurants be at 25% occupancy.  It’s not happening here.  
My sister in law, her husband, and their son were recently positive.  Very minor symptoms.  The son had a temp of 100.3 and sore thighs for an hour.  Sister in law had a headache and lost taste and smell.  Her husband had a low grade fever for a few days.  
The board rules prohibit me from posting what I am really pissed about.  
 

Southeast New Mexico was trending upwards for a while, but has seemed to level off. I'm pretty sure I had covid in the beginning of it all, but they wouldn't test me because I had not traveled and was not hospitalized (it was when they were being stingy with tests and did not have enough for everyone). Antibody tests are dodgy and unreliable, so I cannot know for sure. But in April I was very sick, followed up by kidney infections, bladder infections, gynecological problems, headaches, brain fog and lung problems to this day (I see a pulmonologist on the 19th). 

Of course I'm paranoid and get tested once a week because I have to work. This state has been decimated by the original shutdown, we were a very poor state already so I try to go out and support local business (ones that haven't gone out of business anyways).  I always wear a mask and sanitize. I'd say about 80% of people in this area wear them. 

[Teafortwo]

On 10/9/2020 at 9:13 PM, luvmylabs said:

Anyone been up to coyote pass to see if there is any building going on.  We will be in Flagstaff Tuesday...might check it out.

Oh, please do! I bet nothing is happening there, I wonder if they've put the lots on the market yet.

[Teafortwo]

16 hours ago, TurtlePower said:

I'm pretty sure I had covid in the beginning of it all, but they wouldn't test me because I had not traveled and was not hospitalized (it was when they were being stingy with tests and did not have enough for everyone). Antibody tests are dodgy and unreliable, so I cannot know for sure. But in April I was very sick, followed up by kidney infections, bladder infections, gynecological problems, headaches, brain fog and lung problems to this day (I see a pulmonologist on the 19th). 

I wish there were a "hug" emoji for posts like this. I hope you'll be okay. Please let us know the results of your pulmonologist visit, if you're comfortable doing so. Take care.

[TurtlePower]

7 hours ago, Teafortwo said:

I wish there were a "hug" emoji for posts like this. I hope you'll be okay. Please let us know the results of your pulmonologist visit, if you're comfortable doing so. Take care.

Thank you 💕. It's been rough and very scary at times. Let's add tongue pain to that strange list, something other covid "long haulers" have reported having. 

What makes me mad in all this is that doctors often don't take long haulers seriously. Many, mostly women, are told they have "anxiety". Well, I DO have anxiety, but I know the difference between my anxiety and these issues which began as I was recovering from the illness. I mean, here we have a new virus and thousands of people are reporting long-term issues who were, until recently, not listened to. Long haulers started their own online support groups due to lack of support from doctors. 

That's not very scientific of these doctors and a major failure when it comes to listening to patients. And that's another thing--doctors nowadays (in general) just don't seem to actually LISTEN. It's like they have their own agenda (again, lacking scientific integrity). 

[Kohola3]

1 hour ago, TurtlePower said:

I mean, here we have a new virus and thousands of people are reporting long-term issues who were, until recently, not listened to. Long haulers started their own online support groups due to lack of support from doctors. 

How distressing for all of you.  This is a novel virus and so little is known about it, it would seem that there would be scientists studying survivors to gather data on all of this.  Covid will likely be a "thing" for many, many years to come since we don't know today what might be an issue in 20 years or beyond. Makes me glad to be at an advanced age so that I won't be facing the uncertainty like younger folks will. I weep for the youth of the world!

[Kohola3]

Wanted all to know that I reached out to Sofa Sloth.  Here is her response:

Thank you for your caring message, I miss being here on the forum and snarking with you lovely ladies too! Everything is fine with me, but i’ve just started a new business midyear, as well as working elsewhere (and being a mum of two young ones) and I have just lost all my free time to snark on the Browns, as I’ve had to put it all into my business instead. 😉 I will try to keep prioritising to get on here and check things out now (at least every few months though when I can). Thanks again for thinking of me! It’s so kind of you. 

[Sandy W]

26 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

Wanted all to know that I reached out to Sofa Sloth.  Here is her response:

Thank you for your caring message, I miss being here on the forum and snarking with you lovely ladies too! Everything is fine with me, but i’ve just started a new business midyear, as well as working elsewhere (and being a mum of two young ones) and I have just lost all my free time to snark on the Browns, as I’ve had to put it all into my business instead. 😉 I will try to keep prioritising to get on here and check things out now (at least every few months though when I can). Thanks again for thinking of me! It’s so kind of you. 

Thank You for doing this Kohola, Sofa Sloth's absence has been a gaping hole on this forum.

With her creativity and imagination, I'm sure whatever new business she has undertaken will be a raging success.

[Yeah No]

3 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

How distressing for all of you.  This is a novel virus and so little is known about it, it would seem that there would be scientists studying survivors to gather data on all of this.  Covid will likely be a "thing" for many, many years to come since we don't know today what might be an issue in 20 years or beyond. Makes me glad to be at an advanced age so that I won't be facing the uncertainty like younger folks will. I weep for the youth of the world!

I'm not so happy to be of "advanced age" during this time.  Just when I thought I would be able to retire and feel somewhat secure about my final decades the rug has been ripped out from under me and I don't even know whether I'll survive until next year much less another 20-30 years on this planet.  And never mind whether I'll have the finances to live better than at poverty level.  And while I sympathize for the younger people in general, I'm not exactly happy with those that have been the most callous and cavalier about this virus.  A lot of them seem not to care about their parents' generation and instead are going about their lives like nothing has changed, insensitive to what their behavior might do to the older generations.  I've seen the most heinous comments online from young people that couldn't give a rat's rear end whether we have to stay home and give up our lives to stay safe as long as they can run around free to do whatever they please in defiance to the recommendations of the scientists, thus perpetuating this virus way longer than it should have been.  But why should they care?  It isn't a possible death sentence for most of them.  According to a CDC study, the virus is being spread to older people by young people, and urges that this should be addressed because older people are more likely to experience complications, need hospitalization and die from this than younger people.  Well, duh.  But nobody seems to give a crap about this.  Our lives don't seem to matter.  We can just stay home and not have a life if we don't like it.  Nice attitude!  So forgive me if I don't have as much sympathy as all that.  Why should I weep for the youth of this world when they couldn't care less whether I live or die?

Edited October 11, 2020 by Yeah No

[MonicaM]

A couple of days ago, our county health department released the latest local statics on Covid cases.  We've had a rather alarming increase in positive tests, and our death toll is up.  Of course the first ten or twelve comments were "Fake News!" and "The hospital gets paid for every positive test so of course the numbers are up", and so many people seem to know that most of the deaths weren't actually due to Covid.  It's maddening, and around here, this kind of attitude is pervasive.  Our state has no mask ordinance.  Any store that requires mask wearing faces threats of boycott, so no one enforces it.

We live in a beautiful area.  We love our home and have spent many years making it as comfortable as possible.  We also are most definitely not rich and it is in our best interest financially to stay here in our mortgage free home.  However, right now I'm not sure I can continue to live in this community.   The past four years, coupled with the virus, have brought out a negativity in so many people that we feel isolated even without the stay at home advice.

On every forum I read, including this one, most of the contributors are in favor of masks and seem to be doing everything possible to avoid getting or spreading the virus.  However, in my real life, I know very few people who see those precautions as anything but a conspiracy to take away their freedom.  I'm not young.  I'm in my early sixties, so I'm not super old either.  However, the thought of living in this world for another twenty or so years is intolerable.  

[Yeah No]

7 minutes ago, MonicaM said:

On every forum I read, including this one, most of the contributors are in favor of masks and seem to be doing everything possible to avoid getting or spreading the virus.  However, in my real life, I know very few people who see those precautions as anything but a conspiracy to take away their freedom.  I'm not young.  I'm in my early sixties, so I'm not super old either.  However, the thought of living in this world for another twenty or so years is intolerable.  

I hear you.  I'm 62 and although I live in CT where most people are on board with the masks and don't see them as a conspiracy, there are still a lot of vocal voices on our local websites that do complain about them and all of the restrictions, acting like they're not based on anything real.  I am thinking that they are just a very vocal minority here, but I really sympathize for someone like you who lives in an area where those voices are in the majority.  I wouldn't feel safe there, not that I'd feel very safe anywhere these days.

[sharkerbaby]

I look at this from the another perspective.  For context, I fall towards the older range of the 2nd highest risk category plus I have multiple co-morbidities so I am of even higher risk of dying should I contract COVID plus I have lost a very close family member.  The chances that we are going to eradicate this virus are minuscule, we MAY get a vaccine but even that will NOT be 100% effective, and like all viruses, this one will mutate perhaps for the better perhaps for the worse. Let me repeat that; the virus is NOT going away, at least not for a very long time no matter what we do.  Whether we like it or not, we are eventually going to have to learn to live with this virus. 

I feel or those who have experienced loss and devastation as a direct result of the disease (and I count myself among them).  That being said, I also look at those around me specifically, those in my family, my friends, and my neighbor circles, in other words anyone who I could normally "reach out and touch" on a regular basis and ALL of them have lost out on many many things because society has elected to exist as protectionists.  So many educational opportunities, bonding experiences, growth opportunities, self affirming and confidence building experiences, opportunities for exceptional achievement, life improvement opportunities, celebrations of life and happiness, and once in a lifetime events all ruined with little or no options to recreate, experience, or achieve them.  To be more specific and referring back to those I "could reach out and touch" I personally know of births of 1st babies/grandchildren hidden away with no fanfare, elderly relatives left alone and in solitude, 1st days of school kindergarten and/or 1st grade ruined, multiple senior years of high school ruined, no prom, no graduation, no homecoming, weddings ruined, athletic scholarships to schools otherwise out of reach not achieved, Freshman year of college ruined, vital internships non existent, people dying alone and afraid, funerals and final goodbyes silent, to say nothing of jobs and financial stability, and there is even more but I'll leave these as a sampling of the types of things that people consider inconsequential and trivial losses all so that I can stay safe.  We can't even sing at church!

For me personally, I look at all that and think it is utterly selfish of me to want more of that while we continue on this safe and sheltered path so that I can be assured that I will not get sick.  Perhaps I should remain sheltered but to expect everyone around me to do so as well seem utterly unfair, inconsiderate, and self-centered.  I can remain cloistered in my home but let those that are less likely to get gravely ill get back to living their lives so that the side effects of this sheltered living can be minimized and they can get back to rebuilding their lives and get back on track to a full, rewarding, successful, and happy life.  I'm a solitary loner and even I don't consider this living, there is far more to life than this and I want to get out and experience it again in my own solitary way.  I look at my children and mourn that they are left in this static unmoving place unable to flourish and soar because every minuscule step they consider taking forward gets swatted down with admonishments and looks of disgust and disapproval.

And no, I am not a conspiracy theorist, I do believe the virus exists and can be deadly, I do believe there is benefit to some of the prophylactic steps we have been taking but I do worry we may be hastening its mutation and perhaps shuffling it along to being resistant to our efforts, and I also fully acknowledge that there are certain groups of people who should be extra vigilant.  I also believe that an individual's risk of dying from the novel corona virus is less than what most of the population perceives it to be.  I do also thankfully acknowledge most people seem to have backed away from the edge that so many were initially on believing that if they were to be within sight of another person they were going to catch it and then without a doubt would die.  Thank goodness that is no longer the prevalent thought.

I'll slink away to my corner now and submit myself for the flogging I am due as my opinion differs from those of the majority here.

[Yeah No]

6 minutes ago, sharkerbaby said:

I look at this from the another perspective.  For context, I fall towards the older range of the 2nd highest risk category plus I have multiple co-morbidities so I am of even higher risk of dying should I contract COVID plus I have lost a very close family member.  The chances that we are going to eradicate this virus are minuscule, we MAY get a vaccine but even that will NOT be 100% effective, and like all viruses, this one will mutate perhaps for the better perhaps for the worse. Let me repeat that; the virus is NOT going away, at least not for a very long time no matter what we do.  Whether we like it or not, we are eventually going to have to learn to live with this virus. 

I feel or those who have experienced loss and devastation as a direct result of the disease (and I count myself among them).  That being said, I also look at those around me specifically, those in my family, my friends, and my neighbor circles, in other words anyone who I could normally "reach out and touch" on a regular basis and ALL of them have lost out on many many things because society has elected to exist as protectionists.  So many educational opportunities, bonding experiences, growth opportunities, self affirming and confidence building experiences, opportunities for exceptional achievement, life improvement opportunities, celebrations of life and happiness, and once in a lifetime events all ruined with little or no options to recreate, experience, or achieve them.  To be more specific and referring back to those I "could reach out and touch" I personally know of births of 1st babies/grandchildren hidden away with no fanfare, elderly relatives left alone and in solitude, 1st days of school kindergarten and/or 1st grade ruined, multiple senior years of high school ruined, no prom, no graduation, no homecoming, weddings ruined, athletic scholarships to schools otherwise out of reach not achieved, Freshman year of college ruined, vital internships non existent, people dying alone and afraid, funerals and final goodbyes silent, to say nothing of jobs and financial stability, and there is even more but I'll leave these as a sampling of the types of things that people consider inconsequential and trivial losses all so that I can stay safe.  We can't even sing at church!

For me personally, I look at all that and think it is utterly selfish of me to want more of that while we continue on this safe and sheltered path so that I can be assured that I will not get sick.  Perhaps I should remain sheltered but to expect everyone around me to do so as well seem utterly unfair, inconsiderate, and self-centered.  I can remain cloistered in my home but let those that are less likely to get gravely ill get back to living their lives so that the side effects of this sheltered living can be minimized and they can get back to rebuilding their lives and get back on track to a full, rewarding, successful, and happy life.  I'm a solitary loner and even I don't consider this living, there is far more to life than this and I want to get out and experience it again in my own solitary way.  I look at my children and mourn that they are left in this static unmoving place unable to flourish and soar because every minuscule step they consider taking forward gets swatted down with admonishments and looks of disgust and disapproval.

And no, I am not a conspiracy theorist, I do believe the virus exists and can be deadly, I do believe there is benefit to some of the prophylactic steps we have been taking but I do worry we may be hastening its mutation and perhaps shuffling it along to being resistant to our efforts, and I also fully acknowledge that there are certain groups of people who should be extra vigilant.  I also believe that an individual's risk of dying from the novel corona virus is less than what most of the population perceives it to be.  I do also thankfully acknowledge most people seem to have backed away from the edge that so many were initially on believing that if they were to be within sight of another person they were going to catch it and then without a doubt would die.  Thank goodness that is no longer the prevalent thought.

I'll slink away to my corner now and submit myself for the flogging I am due as my opinion differs from those of the majority here.

No, no flogging here, but I look at it this way - Younger people in time might view this as a blip on their radar - a period that they will far more easily rebound from when things (for them, anyway) go back to some semblance of "normal" or whatever the "new normal" is.  I survived a childhood that in many ways today would be considered disadvantaged and rough but by now it is all water under the bridge.  When I was young I survived social and racial upheaval, recessions, double digit inflation, stag-flation, double digit interest rates, you name it, and somehow I managed to recover and rebound from that.  Things have a way of improving, especially when you're young and still hire-able.  Now, what are my chances of being able to do that?  Not very good. For me as an older person, having to deal with such issues as brought on by this pandemic are not so easy to rebound from.  They include, as I'm sure you probably already know if you've read my posts, losing my income, losing my father to the virus and facing possible loss of my home and even having to live on what was supposed to be my inheritance to a degree that would only equal survival at this point if I'm lucky to survive.  I don't have another chance to reinvent myself to recoup those losses.  This is it - retirement is soon.  I was not getting hired anyway.  I can't just expect to go out there and find another good paying job.  In a few years I'll be on a fixed income.  Period, the end.  I don't have the luxury of being able to be so generous with my life when I myself might end up with nothing as a result.

So anyway, this is why I am not so willing to lay myself down and make the ultimate sacrifice with my life so that the younger generation might be able to go on more easily.  They'll find a way to rebound ANYWAY no matter sacrifices they are asked to make until this situation is under control.  Me, not so much.  I hate to say this, but I am tired of older people martyring themselves for the younger generations.  In my opinion that is the major reason a lot of older people think so many of them have turned into selfish and entitled brats who don't care about anyone but themselves.  I wish people my age and older would stand up for themselves because I personally think their martyrdom is the very attitude that has created a generation of people all too willing to get ahead of YOU even if it means taking your seat in the subway, cutting you off on the highway, coughing in your face without a mask on during a pandemic or knocking you down in the supermarket for the last package of paper towels, etc., etc., etc.  Thanks to the older generation's willingness to martyr themselves for them, they think they're worth more than we are.

[deirdra]

4 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

Wanted all to know that I reached out to Sofa Sloth. 

It is great to hear that she is doing well and is busy.  I was secretly wondering if she was using her artistic talent and business sense to create and sell the Sister Wives colouring book.

[sharkerbaby]

5 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

No, no flogging here, but I look at it this way - Younger people in time might view this as a blip on their radar - a period that they will far more easily rebound from when things (for them, anyway) go back to some semblance of "normal" or whatever the "new normal" is.  I survived a childhood that in many ways today would be considered disadvantaged and rough but by now it is all water under the bridge.  When I was young I survived social and racial upheaval, recessions, double digit inflation, stag-flation, double digit interest rates, you name it, and somehow I managed to recover and rebound from that.  Things have a way of improving, especially when you're young and still hire-able.  Now, what are my chances of being able to do that?  Not very good. For me as an older person, having to deal with such issues as brought on by this pandemic are not so easy to rebound from.  They include, as I'm sure you probably already know if you've read my posts, losing my income, losing my father to the virus and facing possible loss of my home and even having to live on what was supposed to be my inheritance to a degree that would only equal survival at this point if I'm lucky to survive.  I don't have another chance to reinvent myself to recoup those losses.  This is it - retirement is soon.  I was not getting hired anyway.  I can't just expect to go out there and find another good paying job.  In a few years I'll be on a fixed income.  Period, the end.  I don't have the luxury of being able to be so generous with my life when I myself might end up with nothing as a result.

So anyway, this is why I am not so willing to lay myself down and make the ultimate sacrifice with my life so that the younger generation might be able to go on more easily.  They'll find a way to rebound ANYWAY no matter sacrifices they are asked to make until this situation is under control.  Me, not so much.  I hate to say this, but I am tired of older people martyring themselves for the younger generations.  In my opinion that is the major reason a lot of older people think so many of them have turned into selfish and entitled brats who don't care about anyone but themselves.  I wish people my age and older would stand up for themselves because I personally think their martyrdom is the very attitude that has created a generation of people all too willing to get ahead of YOU even if it means taking your seat in the subway, cutting you off on the highway, coughing in your face without a mask on during a pandemic or knocking you down in the supermarket for the last package of paper towels, etc., etc., etc.  Thanks to the older generation's willingness to martyr themselves for them, they think they're worth more than we are.

We are in the same stage of life and in shockingly similar circumstances (only real difference I see is my close relative death was someone other than my father).  We just have different perspectives and view points.  Oh, and I in no way consider myself a martyr!  

[Absolom]

My granddaughter's first day of kindergarten was not ruined.  It was just different.  She still got her photo with her crown and she still met her classmates.  She can't talk to them in person, but they are bonding over zoom small groups.  She's still doing her lessons and learning new skills.  Would I rather she could go to class? For sure, but I'd also rather she be safe.  However, she isn't doing this just for me.  This is her teacher's last year.  It wouldn't be safe for her to be in a room with a couple dozen five year olds going out into the world freely.  There are five year olds who have both been either permanently or long-term disabled from the side effects of COVID.  There are even five year olds who have died.  So no, I don't think letting the world go as we did in the recent past is a good idea.  I don't think letting the disease fully run its course with over filling hospitals and the resultant extraordinary death tolls is exactly fair to society either.  

Edited October 11, 2020 by Absolom

[MonicaM]

7 minutes ago, sharkerbaby said:

We are in the same stage of life and in shockingly similar circumstances (only real difference I see is my close relative death was someone other than my father).  We just have different perspectives and view points.  Oh, and I in no way consider myself a martyr!  

I don't necessarily disagree with much, if any of what you said.  What makes me absolutely intolerably angry is that so many people are so willing to ignore science and believe rumors and conspiracy theories.  People who wear masks are sheep!  People who don't are lions!  Are you a sheep or a lion? 🙄  I'm neither actually, I'm just someone who will wear a mask because it protects YOU.  Two of my neighbors have seriously warned me that if there's a vaccine, no one should get it because it will have a tracer agent that will allow the government to track your every move.  One of them is a records clerk at the local hospital, and the other is a receptionist in a medical office.  Both bitterly complain that they have to wear masks and sometimes gloves at work.  I'd like to think they keep their views quiet at work, but considering the prevailing attitude around here, they probably don't have to.

I absolutely don't want people to live in fear, but please, be realistic.  This has never been a hoax, and just because our local hospitals haven't been overrun with cases doesn't mean they won't be.  I hope not, but acting as if life should go on for everyone as usual is dangerous.

[Kohola3]

36 minutes ago, MonicaM said:

I'm just someone who will wear a mask because it protects YOU.

Hit the nail on the head. It is highly unlikely that I will contract it due to my sheltered lifestyle but I would be just inconsolable if I got it without my knowledge and gave it to someone.  How selfish is it not to care about your fellow humans?  I was told that "if you get it from me it's your own fault for not staying home".  Sheesh. 

A certain public official who took her state from third highest in cases to 33rd highest was just a target of terrorists who wanted to kill her because of her rules to protect her constituents.  How dare she keep people alive!  Money is all that matters!

Where is my supersonic hose when I need it.

[xwordfanatik]

@Kohola3, thank you for reaching out to our @Sofa Sloth.  It's good to know she is doing well, and hopefully she'll check in now and then.  

 

[Meowwww]

3 hours ago, Absolom said:

My granddaughter's first day of kindergarten was not ruined.  It was just different.  She still got her photo with her crown and she still met her classmates.  She can't talk to them in person, but they are bonding over zoom small groups.  She's still doing her lessons and learning new skills.  Would I rather she could go to class? For sure, but I'd also rather she be safe.  However, she isn't doing this just for me.  This is her teacher's last year.  It wouldn't be safe for her to be in a room with a couple dozen five year olds going out into the world freely.  There are five year olds who have both been either permanently or long-term disabled from the side effects of COVID.  There are even five year olds who have died.  So no, I don't think letting the world go as we did in the recent past is a good idea.  I don't think letting the disease fully run its course with over filling hospitals and the resultant extraordinary death tolls is exactly fair to society either.  

She wore a crown for her pic?  How adorable!!!!

[Adiba]

4 hours ago, sharkerbaby said:

We are in the same stage of life and in shockingly similar circumstances (only real difference I see is my close relative death was someone other than my father).  We just have different perspectives and view points.  Oh, and I in no way consider myself a martyr!  

My parents are in their 80s and don’t feel they have a lot of time to wait to do things. Time does not stand still.
They quarantined for a couple of months when it first started in NJ where they live. Do they wear masks and take precautions? Yes. But my dad goes to church and swimming at the ymca. My mom goes shopping and out to eat (if there is outdoor seating). It’s their choice, their lives.

Yesterday, I saw an elderly man go into the grocery store and buy his beer with no mask on. Then, coincidentally, I happened to be at Panera and saw the same man — no mask— go in and pick up his order! So it’s not only the younger people who may be cavalier about the virus.

[Kyanight]

  I have heard it said by many public figures now that we will have a "new normal" in the future.  I'm not sure what that means, but I believe it to be true. I don't know if things will EVER go back to the way they were.  I wish they could.  But I think Covid has changed all that.

  They are TRYING to have football games and they keep getting cancelled or moved because of Covid.  Schools open - and then they close.  I read about a teacher who died as she was teaching class - just collapsed and died.  I believe she was teaching a college class.  I am getting used to seeing empty shelves in the stores.  Getting used to not being able to find something I like - I THINK because it isn't being made any more.  I am getting used to not touching anything when I am out of the house - I have a tool on my keychain that can open freezer doors or any doors that are no automatic, I take my own pen in case I need to sign something.  I have been buying Halloween/Thanksgiving/Christmas masks because I don't see any end in sight to wearing masks.  I am getting used to wondering if I am coming down with Covid every time I cough because of the smoke in the air because of the fires, or if I get a headache or a runny nose - maybe from Fall allergies.  Colds didn't leave just because of Covid - but I can't help wondering if it's Covid every time I don't feel good.   I am getting used to many people rushing through the stores - sometimes where it seems like almost EVERYONE is unfriendly, when in reality they probably want to maintain social distance and get the heck home. I am getting used to seeing my favorite restaurants remain closed - and I highly doubt they will ever open up again.  I have eaten out a few times and it was extremely uncomfortable, the service was lousy EVERY time (probably because they are understaffed) and the food isn't nearly as good as it used to be.  I am getting used to worrying a lot of the time... about finances, about Covid, about my kids, about our society.  

I think that with 214,000 people dead just in the United States in only 6 months (over a million people have died worldwide) - what would have happened if we hadn't closed down, worn masks and (a lot of us) maintained social distance?  If life had gone on as normal, how many people would have died then?  And how can we have "herd immunity" when the virus mutates and people catch it a second time?

I am queen of gloom and doom these days, I guess.  😞

 

[Yeah No]

1 hour ago, Adiba said:

My parents are in their 80s and don’t feel they have a lot of time to wait to do things. Time does not stand still.
They quarantined for a couple of months when it first started in NJ where they live. Do they wear masks and take precautions? Yes. But my dad goes to church and swimming at the ymca. My mom goes shopping and out to eat (if there is outdoor seating). It’s their choice, their lives.

Yesterday, I saw an elderly man go into the grocery store and buy his beer with no mask on. Then, coincidentally, I happened to be at Panera and saw the same man — no mask— go in and pick up his order! So it’s not only the younger people who may be cavalier about the virus.

The big difference is as I see it, that while the younger people are being cavalier with older people's lives, the older people are being cavalier with their OWN lives.  And that's truly sad and in my opinion tragic.  Older people shouldn't have to feel forced to take such risks in order to lead normal lives.  I'm sure that they'd rather not have to make that choice.  It's not fair to say it's OK and fair that they take these chances because they've made that choice.  It really isn't their choice.  If the goal is for all of us to lead normal lives, saying it's OK for anyone to take such risks because it's "their choice" misses the point, IMHO.  That's like saying getting hit by a car was your responsibility because you decided to risk crossing the street.  Never mind that you should be able to cross the street legally in a crosswalk while the light is green - no it was YOUR choice that you made with YOUR life so too bad for you if there are a lot of drunk drivers or otherwise careless people running red lights out there.  You should just stay home and not take the risk of crossing the street if you're that worried about it.  Uh-uh, that logic doesn't hold water for me.  Note that I'm not saying that this is YOUR logic, but it seems to be the logic of a lot of people out there.  I think that logic becoming the "new normal" is a sign that we don't live in a civilized society anymore. 

It's also one of those things that I believe comes out of hidden age bias.  Even the news kept telling us that "if we weren't old and didn't have medical conditions" we had very little risk of dying or having complications from Covid. That fed into the age bias because the young, healthy people took that to mean that they had very little risk and not to worry about those other people either because they're old and sick and their lives don't really matter anyway.  Who cares if they get sick and die, they weren't healthy anyway?  I get upset every time I hear that message because I know that's how some people are going to interpret it.

Edited October 12, 2020 by Yeah No

[Adiba]

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

The big difference is as I see it, that while the younger people are being cavalier with older people's lives, the older people are being cavalier with their OWN lives.  And that's truly sad and in my opinion tragic.  Older people shouldn't have to feel forced to take such risks in order to lead normal lives.  I'm sure that they'd rather not have to make that choice.  It's not fair to say it's OK and fair that they take these chances because they've made that choice.  It really isn't their choice.  If the goal is for all of us to lead normal lives, saying it's OK for anyone to take such risks because it's "their choice" misses the point, IMHO.  That's like saying getting hit by a car was your responsibility because you decided to risk crossing the street.  Never mind that you should be able to cross the street legally in a crosswalk while the light is green - no it was YOUR choice that you made with YOUR life so too bad for you if there are a lot of drunk drivers or otherwise careless people running red lights out there.  You should just stay home and not take the risk of crossing the street if you're that worried about it.  Uh-uh, that logic doesn't hold water for me.  Note that I'm not saying that this is YOUR logic, but it seems to be the logic of a lot of people out there.  I think that logic becoming the "new normal" is a sign that we don't live in a civilized society anymore. 

It's also one of those things that I believe comes out of hidden age bias.  Even the news kept telling us that "if we weren't old and didn't have medical conditions" we had very little risk of dying or having complications from Covid. That fed into the age bias because the young, healthy people took that to mean that they had very little risk and not to worry about those other people either because they're old and sick and their lives don't really matter anyway.  Who cares if they get sick and die, they weren't healthy anyway?  I get upset every time I hear that message because I know that's how some people are going to interpret it.

I don’t see it exactly the same way. If the virus can be spread either way and young people are not immune to it, then older people are also taking the chance of spreading it to younger people, who may have co- morbid conditions or compromised immune systems. You don’t know if the 30 year old in the store next to the 70 year old maskless person has just gone through chemotherapy for cancer. It’s not that simple to blame younger people for the spread of the virus, it’s more complicated. 

My husband’s aunt is in a nursing home, an amputee with dementia, she is 79 and got Covid-19. All she had were gastrointestinal symptoms, and she is fine now. Meanwhile, a 40 year old friend of my in- law’s family got it and passed away ( she had diabetes). 
I’m not saying there aren’t careless young people out there, but there are many who are being careful and are concerned about their older loved ones.

[Yeah No]

8 hours ago, Adiba said:

I don’t see it exactly the same way. If the virus can be spread either way and young people are not immune to it, then older people are also taking the chance of spreading it to younger people, who may have co- morbid conditions or compromised immune systems. You don’t know if the 30 year old in the store next to the 70 year old maskless person has just gone through chemotherapy for cancer. It’s not that simple to blame younger people for the spread of the virus, it’s more complicated. 

My husband’s aunt is in a nursing home, an amputee with dementia, she is 79 and got Covid-19. All she had were gastrointestinal symptoms, and she is fine now. Meanwhile, a 40 year old friend of my in- law’s family got it and passed away ( she had diabetes). 
I’m not saying there aren’t careless young people out there, but there are many who are being careful and are concerned about their older loved ones.

I was speaking in general, because generally younger people are far less likely to die from this virus so there is not just as much chance for an older person to be responsible for a younger person's death - by far.  Of course on an individual level things could be different.  That doesn't mean it doesn't make sense to speak about this issue is in generalities or percentages, though, so it's not invalid or "too simplistic" to see younger people in general as being more likely responsible for older people's deaths, especially in light of recent CDC findings.  The CDC is saying that the virus is being transmitted to older adults in general by younger adults after reviewing the results of its most recent study on how the virus is being spread.  It cautions that there is an "urgent need" to address the spread of the virus among young adults.  They didn't see their generalized conclusions from the study based on age group as "too simplistic" just because it still is possible for older people to transmit the virus to younger people.

Edited October 12, 2020 by Yeah No

[TurtlePower]

16 hours ago, sharkerbaby said:

I look at this from the another perspective.  For context, I fall towards the older range of the 2nd highest risk category plus I have multiple co-morbidities so I am of even higher risk of dying should I contract COVID plus I have lost a very close family member.  The chances that we are going to eradicate this virus are minuscule, we MAY get a vaccine but even that will NOT be 100% effective, and like all viruses, this one will mutate perhaps for the better perhaps for the worse. Let me repeat that; the virus is NOT going away, at least not for a very long time no matter what we do.  Whether we like it or not, we are eventually going to have to learn to live with this virus. 

I feel or those who have experienced loss and devastation as a direct result of the disease (and I count myself among them).  That being said, I also look at those around me specifically, those in my family, my friends, and my neighbor circles, in other words anyone who I could normally "reach out and touch" on a regular basis and ALL of them have lost out on many many things because society has elected to exist as protectionists.  So many educational opportunities, bonding experiences, growth opportunities, self affirming and confidence building experiences, opportunities for exceptional achievement, life improvement opportunities, celebrations of life and happiness, and once in a lifetime events all ruined with little or no options to recreate, experience, or achieve them.  To be more specific and referring back to those I "could reach out and touch" I personally know of births of 1st babies/grandchildren hidden away with no fanfare, elderly relatives left alone and in solitude, 1st days of school kindergarten and/or 1st grade ruined, multiple senior years of high school ruined, no prom, no graduation, no homecoming, weddings ruined, athletic scholarships to schools otherwise out of reach not achieved, Freshman year of college ruined, vital internships non existent, people dying alone and afraid, funerals and final goodbyes silent, to say nothing of jobs and financial stability, and there is even more but I'll leave these as a sampling of the types of things that people consider inconsequential and trivial losses all so that I can stay safe.  We can't even sing at church!

For me personally, I look at all that and think it is utterly selfish of me to want more of that while we continue on this safe and sheltered path so that I can be assured that I will not get sick.  Perhaps I should remain sheltered but to expect everyone around me to do so as well seem utterly unfair, inconsiderate, and self-centered.  I can remain cloistered in my home but let those that are less likely to get gravely ill get back to living their lives so that the side effects of this sheltered living can be minimized and they can get back to rebuilding their lives and get back on track to a full, rewarding, successful, and happy life.  I'm a solitary loner and even I don't consider this living, there is far more to life than this and I want to get out and experience it again in my own solitary way.  I look at my children and mourn that they are left in this static unmoving place unable to flourish and soar because every minuscule step they consider taking forward gets swatted down with admonishments and looks of disgust and disapproval.

And no, I am not a conspiracy theorist, I do believe the virus exists and can be deadly, I do believe there is benefit to some of the prophylactic steps we have been taking but I do worry we may be hastening its mutation and perhaps shuffling it along to being resistant to our efforts, and I also fully acknowledge that there are certain groups of people who should be extra vigilant.  I also believe that an individual's risk of dying from the novel corona virus is less than what most of the population perceives it to be.  I do also thankfully acknowledge most people seem to have backed away from the edge that so many were initially on believing that if they were to be within sight of another person they were going to catch it and then without a doubt would die.  Thank goodness that is no longer the prevalent thought.

I'll slink away to my corner now and submit myself for the flogging I am due as my opinion differs from those of the majority here.

I don't disagree with you. It's like everyone is being punished and economies ruined and for what? This virus is still charging ahead. That's what they do. We'd have to be on lockdown for a VERY long time and no one can afford (literally) to do that. 

I live in a poor state and it's been crushed by the lockdowns. Many businesses simply didn't open back up and people who were furloughed didn't have jobs to come back to. That said, the virus terrifies me. I wish people would be more careful when they're out, not have large gatherings and just cooperate so we CAN keep things open, with some modifications. I don't go out unless it's to the grocery store and, HELL NO to restaurants. No way. 

[Kohola3]

22 minutes ago, TurtlePower said:

This virus is still charging ahead. That's what they do. We'd have to be on lockdown for a VERY long time and no one can afford (literally) to do that. 

New Zealand completely locked down at the beginning of the pandemic.  Totally locked down for 7 weeks and every citizen was required to wear a mask  They were able to reopen the entire country and have been Covid free since them.  Proof that a government that puts its citizens first can save them.

[Yeah No]

28 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

New Zealand completely locked down at the beginning of the pandemic.  Totally locked down for 7 weeks and every citizen was required to wear a mask  They were able to reopen the entire country and have been Covid free since them.  Proof that a government that puts its citizens first can save them.

Something like this should have been done in the U.S., perhaps on a staggered basis as was recommended by the medical experts.  Just at the point where cases were rising in a lot of states they started to reopen, which was the worst thing they could have done.  If they had just waited a few weeks before lifting the stay at home orders a lot of what has happened since then would have been avoided.  The reason the Northeast has had such low numbers is because we started opening up later relative to when the virus started here.  Our numbers were already falling when our states started to reopen.  Opening when cases were rising was just insane, IMO and was one of the major causes of my acid stomach because I knew just what that was going to lead to.  Those states were going to make it bad for the rest of us and continue this thing far longer than it should have lasted, causing more deaths along the way.

[Kohola3]

3 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

The reason the Northeast has had such low numbers is because we started opening up later relative to when the virus started here.

Same thing in Michigan which is why our cases fell dramatically.  The state itself was divided into regions and opened accordingly.  Now it has all gone to hell.

[Scarlett45]

Political discussion- however discreet you may believe yourself to be is not allowed on Primetimer. Please review the Politics Policy in the RED box right above the reply box. 
 

Continued violations of the policy will result in warnings. 

[suomi]

This guy was running in a canyon in Utah. He whipped out his phone to record 4 bob cat cubs ahead of him on the trail... but he realized they were mountain lion cubs when Mama appeared. She tried to flank him at first and then remained on the trail, steadily advancing on him for 6 minutes.

They never took their eyes off each other, he recorded the encounter while walking backward, he is so lucky that he didn't fall on the rock-strewn trail! The lunges you see happened every time he tried to reach down for a rock or stick to throw.

The video is a few paragraphs down in the article and the profanities are bleeped so it's family- friendly.

The Deseret News url was ridiculous so I made a tiny url.

https://tinyurl.com/y6napssg

- - -

Go Blue! Dodgers - 1, Atlanta - 1, bottom of the 8th...

[Yeah No]

I'm happy to report that I got my test results and I'm Covid-free.  I realize now that my symptoms were mostly coming from side effects from my anti-anxiety drug, which I'm going to have to stop taking, at least on a regular basis.  I haven't taken it in 3 days now and I'm already feeling better.

[Yeah No]

So here it is, 3:00 a.m. in the morning my time and I'm awake and on my computer.  I went out to the kitchen for a minute and found my husband in his office on his computer.  He got up and said, "Let's do-si-do", and proceeded to hook my arm and swing me around.  I hooked him with the other arm and we swung around the other way.  I said, "That's actually a swing.  A do-si-do is without touching your partner".  Believe it or not I used to square dance as a kid.  Imagine this, a city kid in a day camp in the Westchester County, NY suburbs being taught to square dance by a cowboy-dressed caller with a twang in his voice who called himself "Slim Sterling".  I actually loved square dancing - in spite of myself, and if you let anyone on my block in the Bronx know about it I would have just about died from embarrassment, LOL.  As one might imagine, in New York anything like that was considered corny, hokey and definitely un-cool.  I actually sympathized with the boys, who all acted like they were being forced to endure a weekly root canal at the dentist.  But yeah, I loved it anyway.  Slim had a particular liking for the song "All Shook Up" by Elvis, which is one of my favorites of his to this day.  Only I always imagine myself square dancing to the tune, LOL.  I think if I were asked to join a square dance today I'd still remember all the moves.  When you learn something that young it's with you for life.

Back to bed.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Yeah No

[Scarlett45]

I listened to Season 2 Episode 1 of the podcast "Unfinshed" about Short Creek, "The Why Child". It was very good. I am going to subscribe. Thank you to those who suggested it.

[Roslyn]

12 hours ago, Yeah No said:

 Believe it or not I used to square dance as a kid.  Imagine this, a city kid in a day camp in the Westchester County, NY suburbs being taught to square dance by a cowboy-dressed caller with a twang in his voice who called himself "Slim Sterling".  I actually loved square dancing - in spite of myself, and if you let anyone on my block in the Bronx know about it I would have just about died from embarrassment, LOL.  As one might imagine, in New York anything like that was considered corny, hokey and definitely un-cool.  I actually sympathized with the boys, who all acted like they were being forced to endure a weekly root canal at the dentist.  But yeah, I loved it anyway. 

I grew up in rural western Pennsylvania in the heart of small family farm country.  The family of my best friend in high school was a member of the local Grange, and they always went to the social gatherings and monthly square dances in the season.  I often got to tag along.  I loved the square dances ☺️ At one of the Granges there was a tall, shy farm boy named Robert and he always would seek me out to dance.  Wow could he dance!  He knew every step and was very good.  He taught them to me and we were best at the Polka. 

Such fabulous memories of a simple time.

[xwordfanatik]

I grew up in Seattle in the 60's.  My first experience square dancing was at conservation camp in the sixth grade.  I loved it.

That was the only activity I really liked in junior high PE.  I haven't done it since, but remember it fondly.

[Yeah No]

18 hours ago, Roslyn said:

I grew up in rural western Pennsylvania in the heart of small family farm country.  The family of my best friend in high school was a member of the local Grange, and they always went to the social gatherings and monthly square dances in the season.  I often got to tag along.  I loved the square dances ☺️ At one of the Granges there was a tall, shy farm boy named Robert and he always would seek me out to dance.  Wow could he dance!  He knew every step and was very good.  He taught them to me and we were best at the Polka. 

Such fabulous memories of a simple time.

I know, right?  Wouldn't it be nice if we had a little bit of that simple time right now?  Plus it was just so out of the ordinary for anyone from New York City to do square dancing, even back then in that simpler time.  Which for me just makes that memory all the more special.

Speaking of a simpler time - In 1973 when I was 14 going on 15 my parents and I took a cross country trip by car.  We had planned to make it all the way to California but it took longer than expected and my parents needed to get back to work.  From my point of view as long as we made it to Utah to see where the Osmonds were from, I was happy.  And we did.  We had already traveled by car a lot, but only up and down the Eastern Seaboard from Canada to Florida.  This was entirely different.  It gave me a sense for just how BIG this country is, and how wonderful.  From the real cowboys in Wyoming, to the Rocky Mountains, to the great food, to the miles and miles of flat farmland to the incredibly nice people, it was a very educational trip that I'll never forget.

Back then I had a fascination for the Mormon religion because of the Osmonds and had done some reading on it.  We had already visited the new welcome center in NYC.  I found the Mormon people to be THE NICEST people I'd ever met and looking back on it, I don't think I've ever met nicer people since.  Imagine this tough, jaded city kid being greeted by strangers in the street!  I was completely amazed and elated.  In the town where the Osmonds were originally from we had the help of some wonderful people who took us to their original "Hunza" ranch.  I was completely fascinated.  I ended up pen palling it with a woman for a few years after that.  Anyway, speaking of a simpler time, this will always be one of my sweetest memories.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Yeah No

[CouchTater]

On 10/13/2020 at 9:05 AM, Scarlett45 said:

I listened to Season 2 Episode 1 of the podcast "Unfinshed" about Short Creek, "The Why Child". It was very good. I am going to subscribe. Thank you to those who suggested it.

Another good podcast I've been listening to is "Survivors Podcast."  It's not a very polished production, and a sometime-co-host is a little annoying, but the people's stories about living in/surviving FLDS life is very interesting.

[Teafortwo]

On 10/11/2020 at 3:35 PM, sharkerbaby said:

For me personally, I look at all that and think it is utterly selfish of me to want more of that while we continue on this safe and sheltered path so that I can be assured that I will not get sick.  Perhaps I should remain sheltered but to expect everyone around me to do so as well seem utterly unfair, inconsiderate, and self-centered.  I can remain cloistered in my home but let those that are less likely to get gravely ill get back to living their lives so that the side effects of this sheltered living can be minimized and they can get back to rebuilding their lives and get back on track to a full, rewarding, successful, and happy life.  I'm a solitary loner and even I don't consider this living, there is far more to life than this and I want to get out and experience it again in my own solitary way.  I look at my children and mourn that they are left in this static unmoving place unable to flourish and soar because every minuscule step they consider taking forward gets swatted down with admonishments and looks of disgust and disapproval.

I'm glad you posted this. I too am a solitary loner, happy with that most of the time. Pre-covid, however, I got together with close friends often, went to exercise classes with a beloved instructor twice a week, dinners out, and lots of excursions on the weekends. I had a decent income from a job I mostly enjoyed. Several people in my circle have lost their lives to the virus but others have recovered (although some do have ongoing issues, physical and mental). These last months have been the hardest I've ever experienced. 

I do see the other side of things and agree that the pandemic, and especially the lockdowns, have brought greater and greater challenges to young people who are missing important milestones and other experiences that are causing grave psychological harm (and hurting their future opportunities). This is affecting young and old. I don't have any answers, but your points are well-taken, especially about things that young people are missing - events that won't happen again, lost job and educational opportunities. These things will certainly impact children and young adults' development.

I've been particularly self-isolated in trying not to be exposed to this thing, but I've relaxed some of my earlier self-imposed strictures and am spending more time outside, and have widened the number of stores I go into from just two (grocery and pharmacy), to several.  I've even gotten take out multiple times from one restaurant and from my favorite deli, which is family-owned and has been in my neighborhood since 1975. On the days when I run errands at two or three stores I feel the closest to "normal" that I've felt since late February/early March. Even though I know my risk is greater from going in and out of these places, I've been doing it.  If a store seems too crowded I wait until people come out, even if the store doesn't mandate that.  It helped that cases in NYC declined to 1% by late July. Now that cases are rising again, I don't know if I can go back to just grocery shopping every 10 days and ordering the rest from Instacart. Along with everyone else, my anxiety about getting sick has lessened (except for my fear of the laundry room in my building). I suppose there is only so much anxiety one can handle. 

I still won't let anyone, including close relatives, into my apartment. 

Edited October 15, 2020 by Teafortwo

[Yeah No]

4 hours ago, Teafortwo said:

I'm glad you posted this. I too am a solitary loner, happy with that most of the time. Pre-covid, however, I got together with close friends often, went to exercise classes with a beloved instructor twice a week, dinners out, and lots of excursions on the weekends. I had a decent income from a job I mostly enjoyed. Several people in my circle have lost their lives to the virus but others have recovered (although some do have ongoing issues, physical and mental). These last months have been the hardest I've ever experienced. 

I do see the other side of things and agree that the pandemic, and especially the lockdowns, have brought greater and greater challenges to young people who are missing important milestones and other experiences that are causing grave psychological harm (and hurting their future opportunities). This is affecting young and old. I don't have any answers, but your points are well-taken, especially about things that young people are missing - events that won't happen again, lost job and educational opportunities. These things will certainly impact children and young adults' development.

Tea, I know you might not agree with me, but as someone that grew up in the Bronx with many challenges and not much money, my gut reaction is "cry me a river" when I hear this argument.  Many young people today were brought up by parents so worried about their safety that they were sheltered from every potential danger and disappointment, and society has cooperated with this by increasingly sheltering young people from the harsher aspects of "real life".  For chrissakes, I grew up mostly before there were even SEATBELTS in cars and I managed to survive.  I was afraid for my life to even get on the freaking SUBWAY for a long time (and with good reason)!  And you want me to feel sorry for "grave psychological harm" from missing one's PROM?  What about the things that caused MY "grave psychological harm" and "missed opportunities" when I was young?  I could give you a list MILES long and of things far more horrible than missing PROM!   I couldn't even go to the HIGH SCHOOL I wanted to attend because I was too afraid for my life to get on the subway!

My husband (born in 1956) had dyslexia but no one even noticed back then because it wasn't on anyone's radar yet, and he didn't even realize until he was over 50 why he didn't do so well in school and hence never went to college.  Just imagine the opportunities he missed because of this!  Now we worry about our financial future - All I knew when I married him was that he was extremely intelligent, hard working and looked for good opportunities.  I figured he could go to college at night for free because I worked for a university.  He tried for one semester but dropped out because he couldn't keep up.  He was the son of a building superintendent in Washington Hts., Manhattan, a pretty lower class neighborhood.  Despite years of trying to better himself he was never able to ascend in his career to the levels he SHOULD have and now we are worried about our financial future.  Can you imagine the "grave psychological harm" and emotional stress this has all cost us especially now that we know WHY?  How many kids today would fall through the cracks like that?  Probably a lot less.

And how about the lost job opportunities I faced being a very smart and attractive woman at a time when men went all googly-eyed and didn't take me seriously and I was discouraged from following the paths that interested me, which were architecture and Philosophy or Theology professor?  How many cute, young, petite women back when I was young were in those careers?  Not too many, and I can give you many stories about why I felt held back from following those careers.  SEXISM at its worst.

And NOBODY was there to say they felt sorry for us - no, we were always told we had every opportunity and if we didn't succeed or we were depressed because of misfortunes or obstacles it was our fault for not finding away above it.

And yet, like my husband, I reinvented myself and somehow survived - not achieving my career or financial goals as well as I'd like, but I survived through sheer will and determination.  No thanks to anyone else putting their life and happiness aside so that we could shine.

And so will these young people.  I know it might sound harsh, but in my day they used to tell us that these setbacks and hardships "built character".  And actually, now that I am older I tend to agree.  I think many young people today need a dose of harsh reality.  They've had it too cushy for too long and everything spoon-fed to them, plus they have high expectations without the ethic of having to put in lots of effort to earn their advantages.  The problem I see is that they are all too likely to blame everyone else (especially their parents' generation) for their problems and instead of rising above them, and will double down on their negativity and expect the world to take care of them.  Even pre-pandemic a lot of them had this attitude.  Plus, acting like previous generations had it much better than them and are responsible for their hardships in life.  REALLY?  They should only know!  And now during the pandemic a lot of them carry on like they have no responsibility for the safety of their elders.  Well, is it any wonder WHY when they think we're to BLAME for their troubles?  It's all about THEM, don't you know?  And unfortunately their parents' generation encouraged that attitude by making their entire lives all about their kids to an unhealthy degree and not encouraging them to take personal responsibility for their lives no matter what happens to them (which we used to call "growing up").

Well, what can I say?  At some point everyone's life is their own and the buck stops with them.

Sorry for the rant!  (((Hugs)))

Edited October 15, 2020 by Yeah No

[Kyanight]

Like the rest of you, I see both sides of the situation.   But like the rest of you, I don't really know what the solution is.

Last night on the news I heard about how some people think that throwing everything wide open in the hopes of "herd immunity" might be the solution.  No one thought to mention that a third of the teachers in the United States are over the age of 50.  If a third of the teachers in the U.S. are dead or dealing with major health issues - who will teach the children then - even remotely?  If there aren't enough teachers there will still be no proms, or home coming or football games or graduations.  I guess if the teachers are compromised there are still online home schooling options - but in the end - it is still online learning.  And of course there is the problem of hospitals being filled to the max and having to send critically ill people home to die.   And there is still the issue of people catching this a second or third time.  There IS no immunity if a virus mutates and you can catch it again and again.

 

[Kohola3]

28 minutes ago, Kyanight said:

Last night on the news I heard about how some people think that throwing everything wide open in the hopes of "herd immunity" might be the solution. 

In Michigan it is estimated that for this cockamamie idea to work we'd see at least 30,000 additional deaths.  I'm sorry that weddings and proms and football games are big deals and it's hard to miss them.  But is it worth it when tens of thousands will die so you can have some fun?  Sorry, that smacks of genocide since a certain population, specifically those over 60, will be the victims.

[Kyanight]

1 minute ago, Kohola3 said:

In Michigan it is estimated that for this cockamamie idea to work we'd see at least 30,000 additional deaths.  I'm sorry that weddings and proms and football games are big deals and it's hard to miss them.  But is it worth it when tens of thousands will die so you can have some fun?  Sorry, that smacks of genocide since a certain population, specifically those over 60, will be the victims.

I totally agree with you.   I don't think an enjoyable outing or experience is worth even one person's life... and I don't care HOW old or young that person might be.  A life is a life.

[sharkerbaby]

2 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

In Michigan it is estimated that for this cockamamie idea to work we'd see at least 30,000 additional deaths.  I'm sorry that weddings and proms and football games are big deals and it's hard to miss them.  But is it worth it when tens of thousands will die so you can have some fun?  Sorry, that smacks of genocide since a certain population, specifically those over 60, will be the victims.

Curious, how was this number derived?  Do you have a link to the source?

[Kohola3]

28 minutes ago, sharkerbaby said:

Curious, how was this number derived?  Do you have a link to the source?

From Thomas Frieden, formerly of the CDC, Dr. Thomas File, Jr., president of the Infectious Diseases Society of America and others .Here is the link.

[Yeah No]

I just heard on the news that 13% of Americans have gotten Covid-19.  If 200,000 had died when 10% of the population had gotten it, that would mean that potentially  2,000,000 people would die if 100% of the population gets it (assuming this happens before a successful vaccine).  And that's if we continue with social distancing, mask mandates, and shut-downs.  Imagine how many would die if we just let it "run its course" without any restrictions at all?