Small Talk: The Polygamous Cul-de-Sac

Kohola3 · May 20, 2020

31 minutes ago, Teafortwo said:

What irks me though is that some people who are the most vocal protestors of things like hair salons and stores being shut down, are would-be patrons, not workers in those places, so it's as if they're saying "others should risk their lives to provide me (the consumer) with a service."

Amen to that. Sometimes I feel like we've all turned into Princess Snowflakes and it's all about me. I am inconvenienced. I need a haircut. I want to see my son/daughter. I want to go to the theater.

I look back at the years of deprivation during WWII that, while I'm sure there were complaints, life was handled as a "we're all in this together" moment. A couple of months into this and the whiners are out in force. We don't seem to give a fig about anybody else but our own wants (not even needs, just wants) and what it might cost. I would give my right arm for a haircut but I am not going to put myself OR my hairdresser in jeopardy for my own gratification.

All I can think of is @Meowww forced into working in unsafe conditions every day. I worry about that all of the time. No amount of money is worth a life.

sharkerbaby · May 20, 2020

8 minutes ago, Teafortwo said:

@sharkerbaby I appreciate differing points of view. One of the great things about this board and this thread is that the vast majority of posters are able to maintain a civil conversation even when disagreeing. I will say I understand the economic devastation. What irks me though is that some people who are the most vocal protestors of things like hair salons and stores being shut down, are would-be patrons, not workers in those places, so it's as if they're saying "others should risk their lives to provide me (the consumer) with a service." Same thing when meat plant workers are forced to go back to work too soon. We could all switch to other protein sources for a few weeks if meat supplies got short.

See that's the thing though, it's not so easy to switch to an alternative for a few weeks and the up and downstream impacts of closing a single meat plant is vast.

I really don't believe people are saying "others should risk their lives to provide me (the consumer) with a service". That's a very easy axe to wield though as well as an effective one because the counter argument is complex and can't be summarized in a few quick quips. In that respect (and that respect alone) it's a bit like accusing someone of being homophobic - the result is an immediate end to the discussion because it's quite difficult to prove a negative.

The shot that is so frequently flung is that someone "wants a haircut"... it's not that they want a haircut so desperately that they want to put the hairdresser at risk and hope to spread disease, it's that they want some sense of normalcy. We are not built for this, we are primates and primates live in tribes. We are instinctually a tribal animal so isolation has a tremendous affect on us - that's why solitary confinement in jails and prisoner camps are utilized.

Moreover, it's not just the patrons that are wanting salons open, owners do to and not just for their own selfish reasons. Most are small business so the owners and staff become very close and think of themselves as an extended family. When the owner can't sustain the business he or she is taking away the livelihood of the employees and close friends. Did you hear about the salon owner in Texas who went to jail because she felt she needed to open? She stated she would not apologize because “Feeding my kids is not selfish. If you think the law is more important than kids getting fed, then please go ahead with your decision, but I am not going to shut the salon.” She was shortly thereafter released.

As far as meat plants, other agricultural related issues, and the food supply chain in general. Vast amounts of crops, milk, livestock, and other materials are being plowed under, left to rot, disposed of, dumped and euthanized because our infrastructure is not built to just switch over to alternate sources of protein, dairy, produce, etc. We may have the same number of mouths to feed but we do not have the systems in place to accomplish the task as we are trying to now. The distribution system, the packaging system, the slaughter houses, the overall supply chain is not equipped and not easily converted to supply grocery stores only. We are just now seeing the food shortages that are a result of this. And food supply is not like toilet paper where you can relatively quickly ramp up production. You can't just run a farm 24 hours and get a quick restock of cattle, chickens, cucumbers, lettuce, etc.

ack, I'm getting notifications galore, I suspect I'm going to be busy

Yeah No · May 20, 2020

I'm not going to quote anyone because I don't want anyone on the board to feel singled out, but I think everyone has to make the decision about what they feel safe doing themselves based on their own situation. I have read posts from hairdressers in my state that are scared to death to go back to work. Some of them are older with conditions and won't return to work voluntarily, which is their choice, but what a position to have to be put in in the first place! It's as if the world is expecting them to make the choice of whether to risk their lives or go broke. From their POV, yes, it's an either/or proposition unless they do something extreme like show up to work in a hazmat suit or scuba gear. I know my husband the limo. driver will be in this position whenever international travel is opened up again (which thankfully won't be for a while yet, I'm sure). I myself am going to be in that position as I decide when I can feel OK risking going down to my father's apartment in the Bronx.

I think that decisions like this are best looked at from a very singular perspective because everyone's health risks, area risks, and monetary risks differ. I don't think it's fair to the group of us that feels we are in this situation to generalize about the whole because inevitably those most vulnerable (like us) are left out of the equation and feel like they are falling through the cracks and no one cares about them. I would rather see people put the emphasis on taking care of the most vulnerable and helping them not to feel like their lives and their concerns about surviving both medically and monetarily are not worth anything to government or the rest of the populace. In the beginning of this crisis we were all supposed to be about protecting the most vulnerable, but I fear that that is now being bulldozed under the cries of younger, healthier people that want their issues put in the forefront. There has to be a way to address both issues at the same time, but unfortunately that has not been the case so far.

In my opinion, and feel free to disagree with this, but until we make those of us that are the most vulnerable to this virus feel that we are not going to be called or feel forced to sacrifice ourselves to earn money this is going to be an issue. And so far I don't think anyone is talking about that. A lot of older people have to work because they don't have enough in retirement money saved to live on unless they want to be destitute. And then there are those that aren't old enough to retire or if they did they'd have to face financial penalties that just don't work for them.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Yeah No

Kyanight · May 20, 2020

Here's the thing: As long as we are all respectful towards each other, this is our sounding board to vent our frustrations, our fears, our opinions.

None of us are going to convince a single soul here to think as we do as individuals, because we all have a lifetime of experiences that shape who we are and how we view life.

I love hearing other's viewpoints because it gives me food for thought. I get to mull over and consider ideas that I hadn't even thought about up until that point. And at the end of the day... each of us are all going to do what is best for ourselves and our families.

But on this board - we get to share. And on THIS particular thread (off topic) we get to share without other people's judgments. This has become my favorite place to read - although not the cheeriest, sometimes. But isn't that just life?

Edited May 20, 2020 by Kyanight

crazycatlady58 · May 20, 2020

2 hours ago, sharkerbaby said:

I hope you didn't take my response as an implying that I thought you were being "selfish, uncaring, ignorant, and only concerned about themselves". Quite the opposite, I had myself in mind as the one who would be labeled as such because unlike almost everyone here, I fall on the side of the spectrum that believes the measures taken were and are too extreme and should have been far more measured and targeted. When I have expressed this view elsewhere, I have been told I am all those things and more. I purposely laid low here and did not share my thoughts because when I read posts here, those sentiments were quite prevalent and stated quite explicitly so I opted for the cowardly route rather than making myself a large shining target for the the arrows that were generally cast in mass. Thereby, I was taking glancing blows rather than direct hits.

Let me state right up front, this has been a devastating disease and has had a tremendously tragic effect on people worldwide. The death and despair have been horrendous and I feel deep sorrow for all that has been wrought upon people everywhere. Like many here, I too have been directly affected by this virus and am grieving for relatives. Additionally, I, and both of my children, tick more than one criteria for be amongst the most vulnerable population so no, I do not take COVID-19 lightly nor do I believe it's a hoax nor do I think I and mine are "safe".

But I also believe people's livelihoods are important and has a great deal of impact on their overall well being and should be considered when making "shut down" and "stay at home" orders. There is most definitely and a long recognized phenomenon referred to as "deaths of despair" (most frequently suicide and drug use and overdose). This state of mind can be directly attributed to, among other things, economic ruin. It's been stated, more than once, that ones financial stability and businesses can be rebuilt and that income loss is survivable whereas frequently the coronavirus is not. I do not believe one life should be traded for another and this approach smacks of labeling someone who is mentally devastated by financial loss and sees no way to recover as weak and cowardly.

I further believe the economic costs (locally, nationally, and globally) are going to be felt far longer, more extensively, and far more severely than anyone currently will admit. We are a global economy with dependencies, connections, and intersecting lines that are so complex and extensive that it's nearly impossible to understand the radiating fissures that result from putting pressure on just one seemingly minor component of this behemoth. We have not just "put pressure on one minor component", we have crippled whole swatches of industry, retail, service, manufacturing, even agriculture on an international scale. Nothing and no one will come out of this unscathed.

To illustrate, some of this is anecdotal but is easily seen with a little observation; the average parent is not equipped to home school and school directed e-learning is not nearly as effective as a classroom model therefore the education delay for all levels of students is going to be significant, doctors and nurses are being furloughed across the country, many rural hospitals are closing or at risk of closing, unemployment has skyrocketed and many of those jobs will never come back, a high percentage of those job losses are those least able to afford a disruption of income, many cancer patients are missing chemotherapy treatments whether out of fear or other reasons, organ transplants have taken a dive because a significant number of these are considered "elective" surgeries, pediatric vaccinations are down again generally out of fear to go to the doctor, "deaths of despair" are projected to spike, UN World Food Programme predicts by year end the number of people facing acute hunger will double to 265M, and (one that is generally sneered at) our freedoms and liberties are being trampled on and I fear will forever be altered (give an inch they take a mile) we have proven we will give things up with little resistance.

And while I'm laying myself bare I might as well also share my belief that yes, while this virus is highly contagious, I do not believe it is nearly as fatal as we have been led to believe. I think when we have finally come out of this and have found ways to live with the virus, and researchers are able to impartially study the outbreak, they are going to find that the lethality rate is far less than was initially thought. The reactive response was driven primarily due to the fact that this was new, unknown, fast spreading, and seemingly untreatable - all very scary things. Unfortunately, I think it's going to be at least 5 years before we will be able to really know this because it is far too hot of a topic and far too polarized to get impartiality.

So there you go, now you all know I am a heartless, souless, despicable human being, let the roasting begin....

eta: oh and yes, I agree completely that most of the decision makers are far removed from the average population and really have little foresight into the consequences of their directives. Further, I think their primary concern is staying in power so their motivations, posturing, and messaging is with this intent rather than for the "good of the people". At least business owners (big, small, and everything in between) generally realize that they need the "little people" to keep their business running.

Thank you for posting. I believe no matter what the different levels of authority did in regards to the virus it would affect a lot of people negatively. I honestly don't think there is a correct answer. The only people I get irritated at or the ones who do not want to wear a face mask because " Out liberty is being taken away." I do enjoy hearing different perspective on this, while I may not agree ( not saying I disagree with what you have posted) I do like to hear different viewpoints.

Teafortwo · May 20, 2020

1 hour ago, sharkerbaby said:

As far as meat plants, other agricultural related issues, and the food supply chain in general. Vast amounts of crops, milk, livestock, and other materials are being plowed under, left to rot, disposed of, dumped and euthanized because our infrastructure is not built to just switch over to alternate sources of protein, dairy, produce, etc. We may have the same number of mouths to feed but we do not have the systems in place to accomplish the task as we are trying to now. The distribution system, the packaging system, the slaughter houses, the overall supply chain is not equipped and not easily converted to supply grocery stores only.

Thanks for your nuanced response to my more simplistic comment. I had read about the impact of restaurant closings/takeout only/reduced patronage on the food supply chain several weeks ago (and all the food that went to waste) but I glossed over that. I just feel awful for meat plant workers and anyone who has to put themselves and their families at risk to serve others. That does not, however, mean that I'm consistent. I do use Instacart to avoid a certain grocery store. And so far the shoppers have all been people of color.

laurakaye · May 20, 2020

13 minutes ago, sharkerbaby said:

The shot that is so frequently flung is that someone "wants a haircut"... it's not that they want a haircut so desperately that they want to put the hairdresser at risk and hope to spread disease, it's that they want some sense of normalcy. We are not built for this, we are primates and primates live in tribes. We are instinctually a tribal animal so isolation has a tremendous affect on us - that's why solitary confinement in jails and prisoner camps are utilized.

This is me. I want a $%^# haircut and I want to go to the library. I do not want to spread a virus or endanger anyone else, but I miss feeling "normal" and I miss browsing books on shelves. What's interesting are the things I don't miss - wandering into Home Goods on a Saturday afternoon and spending $40 on things I don't need, running around like a freak show every weekend trying to accomplish all of my perceived "errands," etc. There are things I most definitely miss and things that, once things go back to whatever "normal" looks like, I probably won't do as much as I used to. Which I think, ironically, will make me a better and more balanced human. When so much is taken away and then slowly given back, you certainly realize what feeds your soul and what doesn't.

sharkerbaby · May 20, 2020

26 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

This is me. I want a $%^# haircut and I want to go to the library. I do not want to spread a virus or endanger anyone else, but I miss feeling "normal" and I miss browsing books on shelves. What's interesting are the things I don't miss - wandering into Home Goods on a Saturday afternoon and spending $40 on things I don't need, running around like a freak show every weekend trying to accomplish all of my perceived "errands," etc. There are things I most definitely miss and things that, once things go back to whatever "normal" looks like, I probably won't do as much as I used to. Which I think, ironically, will make me a better and more balanced human. When so much is taken away and then slowly given back, you certainly realize what feeds your soul and what doesn't.

LOL, totally made me laugh, particularly the "run around like a freak show". hahaha. Thank you! I know exactly what you mean.

So I'm a relatively simple, solitary, quite, introverted, late middle age, family oriented single mother who believes she was born in the wrong part of the country in the wrong era. I do all those old timey things, grow much of my own food, including herbs, chickens for eggs and medicinals, preserve and can most of my produce, cook almost exclusively from scratch, including making my own yogurt, buttermilk, peanut butter, bread, sour cream, many cheeses, stock, and many other "staples". I sew extensively, do needle and yarn crafts, some carpentry and other home maintenance and improvement, and I prep and prepare and stock away supplies, food, and other necessities "Just in case..." I even cut my own hair, my son's hair, and used to cut my daughter's (then she became a teenager and well....)! In the past when I was able to work from home, it was not unusual for me to stay home for weeks at a time and be quite content. Then came the "stay at home" orders and while I obviously am quite capable of it, I no longer want to, I feel the unnatural need (for me anyway) to GET THE HELL OUT! And I'm quite certain it's not because I am uncaring or unconcerned about those around me, it's because the involuntary confinement is doing a vicious dance on my psyche.

One thing that warms my heart to no end about all this though is seeing all the families reconnect, being together, and enjoying each other. People out of necessity, are simplifying; of which I believe the benefits are immeasurable. I hope beyond hope that at least some of this family appreciation and togetherness sticks around becomes an integral part of society again.

Edited May 20, 2020 by sharkerbaby

AZChristian · May 20, 2020

1 hour ago, crazycatlady58 said:

The only people I get irritated at or the ones who do not want to wear a face mask because "Our liberty is being taken away."

Kind of like this idiot.

Unless you OWN Costco, you don't get to wake up and decide to shop there without a mask, dummy.

Kohola3 · May 20, 2020

1 hour ago, crazycatlady58 said:

The only people I get irritated at or the ones who do not want to wear a face mask because " Out liberty is being taken away."

Lord, yes. "No shoes, no shirt, no service", no problem. No smoking, OK. Mandatory seat belts for safety, whatever. But god forbid you should be forced to wear a mask.

Meowwww · May 21, 2020

So, I think I’m one of those who is too soft. I “risk my life” daily to provide a service at the pet food store where I work. I think I’m just numb to it, as are my coworkers. Yes, we wear masks. But that’s about it. We are SO busy we don’t have much time to sanitize anything. We eat with our dirty hands, we unbox and check in hundreds of cardboard boxes of shipment a week. Plus sweating profusely because it’s hot in our store, and we haul 30 lb bags of dog food all day long....whether it’s for customers or unloading and stacking 60-80 bags that we get in shipment several times a week. We help tons of people in our small fish tank area, selling them fish. Can’t do social distancing with that, it’s all up close and personal as people are particular about the fish they want. Or they want to hold the ferrets or rats or guinea pigs or bunnies. No social distancing is possible.
At this point, neither our customers or myself and my coworkers even give the virus much thought. We are in the eastern suburbs of the Twin Cities. As of today there are 300 people tested positive in the whole county, not much considering the county stretches all the way to St Paul.
My hubby has been going to work every day too, he runs the IT for the entire state of MN Department of Corrections. His teams are there, and so he feels he needs to be, also. He and his parents (they live near us) are soft about it too.
I think it’s because none of us knows anyone who officially has or had the virus, nor do our friends, team members, or customers.
We wear our masks and wash our hands and use hand sanitizer, but not a lot.
I read your stories and feel woefully complacent about it all.
So I guess this is my Coronavirus Confession. Sigh....

Kyanight · May 21, 2020

With your low numbers that's really understandable, Meowwww!

I'm really sorry you have to work so hard, though! 😞

As of today: in my county we have 2,737 cases and 108 deaths. Our county has a population of 451,443. One hundred and eight deaths out of 450,000 is a drop in the bucket I guess. Our people are just so complacent.... the majority refusing to wear masks and practice social distancing. Gathering in big groups. Maybe I over-worry this thing when you put it in perspective!

Ms.Lulu · May 21, 2020

Thought I'd share my work story of the day. I am lucky enough to work in a job that can be done from home, and I manage a team of people who all are able to work from home. Some did, even before the pandemic. We use a lot of video and instant messaging.

Today I am having a video update with one on my employees when their partner walks into the room, completely naked. Naked man realizes his partner is on a video call and starts to back up very slowly. I say nothing to the employee.

Hairiest naked person I have ever seen. Now that I have shared it I can pretend it never happened.

deirdra · May 21, 2020

You'd think by now people would know to do video calls/meetings with a wall, screen or big piece of furniture behind them, not a view into the rest of the house.

Edited May 21, 2020 by deirdra

Kyanight · May 21, 2020

OK, this guy wasn't naked, but it's still hilarious!!

sharkerbaby · May 21, 2020

Maybe this will help ease some fears,...

CDC now says coronavirus isn’t easily spread by touching surfaces

In addition to the headline another two things of note (which has long been known to be the case and promoted by the CDC even though the message has not been well distributed) - emphasis mine

The Food and Drug Administration said last month there was no evidence to suggest the virus can spread through food, or what it’s wrapped in and that there was no need to wipe down groceries.
The agency continues to note that the virus is thought to mainly spread from person-to-person — even by those not showing symptoms.
Specifically, it mainly spreads between people who are in close contact, within 6 feet of each other, when someone with the infection coughs, sneezes or talks, causing droplets to land in another persons mouth or nose.

So in other words, unlike Pig Pen's dust cloud, the virus is not an invisible cloud that surrounds people allowing it to maliciously jump from person to person and infect them, even if said person walks past another and even brushes against them. Hopefully we can stop looking at every stranger, and sometimes even family members, as the enemy with malevolent intent to infect us causing us to dodge into alley ways, door ways, and behind cars to avoid them, especially since outdoor transmission is thought to be unlikely.

Kohola3 · May 21, 2020

1 hour ago, sharkerbaby said:

even if said person walks past another and even brushes against them

Provided that person is not coughing, sneezing, or speaking within six feet as it says in the statement. Thus the continued need for social distancing.

sharkerbaby · May 21, 2020

I'm not saying "social distancing" doesn't have it's place. In my professional capacity, I have been advocating a version of "social distancing" for the better part of 2 decades - way before it was referred to as such. Way back in 1999 I created my organization's first pandemic response plan and low and behold it included, among other things, what is commonly being referred to as social distancing. Moreover, since then I have created, updated, maintained, and/or revised more than 2 dozen such plans, all having as a component personal space guidelines. Busy times were always when some emerging health threat began moving to the forefront i.e. avian flu, swine flu, SARS, MERS, Ebola, and now corona. Unfortunately, when something is emerging it is not an ideal time to begin determining action and response plans. These activities are driven as reactionary rather than well thought out and proactive which leads to hasty and frequently misdirected actions.

Additionally, all my plans included directives for stockpiling and rotating PPE and other such necessary supplies as it was well know that at minimum regional but more likely national supplies would be depleted and government stock piles were already earmarked for specific needs and use.

Never did I dream the world would shut down for a disease outbreak especially since, I think in 2006, a government report specifically advised against it since it was believed that such an action would in the long run be ineffective and in the medium to long term be devastating. I'll see if I can find that report and post it.

Edited May 21, 2020 by sharkerbaby

sharkerbaby · May 21, 2020

As promised, here's the report I mentioned above... (of course this specifically mentions influenza but rarely do response activities significantly change based upon a specific contagion - medical treatment changes, obviously, response does not. Much like response to a fire is similar regardless of the initiating event or fuel source, what you pour on it may change but the response is relatively the same. And it shouldn't need to be said but scale will change based upon severity and spread but response activities are still relatively similar. All good response plans must be scaleable)

Disease Mitigation Measures in the Control of Pandemic Influenza

In my search, I also came across this interesting recent article that some of you may be interested in. The first mention of the term "social distancing" was in a 2006 paper written by a complex-systems analyst with no medical training and was based upon a research project his 14 yr old daughter completed for her high school. I don't know whether to be impressed or appalled that our current state of affairs is in part due to a high school project.

The 2006 Origins of the Lockdown Idea

Edited May 21, 2020 by sharkerbaby

Roslyn · May 21, 2020

On 5/20/2020 at 11:33 AM, sharkerbaby said:

See that's the thing though, it's not so easy to switch to an alternative for a few weeks and the up and downstream impacts of closing a single meat plant is vast.

As far as meat plants, other agricultural related issues, and the food supply chain in general. Vast amounts of crops, milk, livestock, and other materials are being plowed under, left to rot, disposed of, dumped and euthanized because our infrastructure is not built to just switch over to alternate sources of protein, dairy, produce, etc. We may have the same number of mouths to feed but we do not have the systems in place to accomplish the task as we are trying to now. The distribution system, the packaging system, the slaughter houses, the overall supply chain is not equipped and not easily converted to supply grocery stores only. We are just now seeing the food shortages that are a result of this. And food supply is not like toilet paper where you can relatively quickly ramp up production. You can't just run a farm 24 hours and get a quick restock of cattle, chickens, cucumbers, lettuce, etc.

I think that we are all getting a good schooling in real life Supply Side Economics. WAY too many people these days really don't know how the supply side works behind the scenes for everyday things like picking up some carrots, strawberries, oranges, potatoes and asparagus for dinner when all of those things have very different harvest timing. They can ramp up production of yeast as an example but still can't get it to the stores any quicker because the packaging manufacturer on the other side of the planet has shut down let alone deciding to keep a few chickens for eggs and picking up peeps to learn that you have to pay to feed and house and protect those chickens for sometimes 6 months before seeing one egg.

On 5/20/2020 at 1:37 PM, sharkerbaby said:

LOL, totally made me laugh, particularly the "run around like a freak show". hahaha. Thank you! I know exactly what you mean.

So I'm a relatively simple, solitary, quite, introverted, late middle age, family oriented single mother who believes she was born in the wrong part of the country in the wrong era. I do all those old timey things, grow much of my own food, including herbs, chickens for eggs and medicinals, preserve and can most of my produce, cook almost exclusively from scratch, including making my own yogurt, buttermilk, peanut butter, bread, sour cream, many cheeses, stock, and many other "staples". I sew extensively, do needle and yarn crafts, some carpentry and other home maintenance and improvement, and I prep and prepare and stock away supplies, food, and other necessities "Just in case..." I even cut my own hair, my son's hair, and used to cut my daughter's (then she became a teenager and well....)! In the past when I was able to work from home, it was not unusual for me to stay home for weeks at a time and be quite content. Then came the "stay at home" orders and while I obviously am quite capable of it, I no longer want to, I feel the unnatural need (for me anyway) to GET THE HELL OUT! And I'm quite certain it's not because I am uncaring or unconcerned about those around me, it's because the involuntary confinement is doing a vicious dance on my psyche.

One thing that warms my heart to no end about all this though is seeing all the families reconnect, being together, and enjoying each other. People out of necessity, are simplifying; of which I believe the benefits are immeasurable. I hope beyond hope that at least some of this family appreciation and togetherness sticks around becomes an integral part of society again.

I too am a make/do/produce for myself person, except the quarantine really hasn't changed my life because I prefer my hermit's world in the country. However adjusting to having my husband under my feet every day all day has been quite the challenge. It took a couple of weeks but we did settle into a good routine.

Absolom · May 21, 2020

50 minutes ago, sharkerbaby said:

The first mention of the term "social distancing" was in a 2006 paper written by a complex-systems analyst with no medical training and was based upon a research project his 14 yr old daughter completed for her high school. I don't know whether to be impressed or appalled that our current state of affairs is in part due to a high school project.

It's fascinating sometimes how things fall out. One of my jobs quite a few years ago was producing the various organizational charts discussed in manager meetings. This was YEARS ago and I had little pieces of paper with each person's name and title that I moved around. At that time I had a daughter who was about three. She decided to play with "mommy's puzzle" while I was making dinner. I thought oh why not throw her org chart into the mix. Yep, that's the one they voted to use.

I don't know as most of us don't since our crystal balls seem out of tune, but if we hadn't done some form of stay at home, a lot of places would have ended up like northern Italy or NYC with terribly overloaded hospitals and people dying at home or in hospital corridors and I think most of us would have found that horrifying. That was the point of doing it in California. One study done 14 years ago may or may not be applicable or accurate.

On the other hand the economic consequences are real. I can't remember where it was, but there was also a recent economic analysis of the economic consequences of shutting down things vs staying open and dealing with the resultant deaths and those consequences. Their prediction was that it would take longer to recover from staying open because of the impacts from the much higher population loss and devastation to society. Again one study.

Absolom · May 21, 2020

10 minutes ago, Roslyn said:

I think that we are all getting a good schooling in real life Supply Side Economics. WAY too many people these days really don't know how the supply side works

This was my life at one point when just in time logistics was making inroads. I wasn't entirely a fan because of my favorite example what about floods and typhoons? We do need to keep some of the warehouses and some stock in advance. We did scale back the number in reserve, but it turns out they were happy I argued to keep a goodly reserve when we did have a calamity and could re-outift the unit quickly instead of having to wait.

I've been watching Costco and the Charmin supply. Charmin makes a different size sheet for Costco. I don't know if they sell that one to anyone else, but Costco seems to get a supply weekly. I don't know if it's run on different equipment or they do a special Costco set up once a week. Just a curiosity.

deirdra · May 21, 2020

On 5/20/2020 at 12:07 PM, AZChristian said:

Kind of like this idiot.

Unless you OWN Costco, you don't get to wake up and decide to shop there without a mask, dummy.

I was hoping the Costco worker would have said when he took away the cart: "and you sir have the freedom to shop elsewhere"

Edited May 21, 2020 by deirdra

Kohola3 · May 21, 2020

2 hours ago, sharkerbaby said:

Never did I dream the world would shut down for a disease outbreak especially since, I think in 2006, a government report specifically advised against it since it was believed that such an action would in the long run be ineffective and in the medium to long term be devastating.

All I can say is that Michigan, with the 10th largest population shot to #3 in Covid cases until the governor shut us down completely. Since then we have dropped to 7th while Texas and Florida which opened up and had few restrictions are getting set to bypass us. Not sure that I consider that ineffective.

laurakaye · May 21, 2020

Quick COL question....

For those of us who are hot-flash prone, have you noticed them ramping up since Covid? I was pretty sure I was on the tail end of that lovely "season of life," but now they are back with a vengeance. And if I wanted to spray someone off my lawn with my hose, I now pretty much want to turn that hose on myself about 20 times a day.

sharkerbaby · May 21, 2020

Sure but flattening the curve does not equate to fewer overall cases in the long run it means to spread the number of cases over a longer period of time so as not to overwhelm the health care system. If we all recall, that was the original objective of the stay at home orders, it was not to reduce overall case load. As @DakotaJustice said above in reference to California "if we hadn't done some form of stay at home, a lot of places would have ended up like northern Italy or NYC with terribly overloaded hospitals and people dying at home or in hospital corridors". The virus is not going away the best we can hope for, unless or until a vaccine is developed, is a mutation that makes it less transmissible or less lethal.

And to elaborate a bit on my earlier mention of the feasibility of transmission of the virus while passing by another person. There is a lot more to viral transmission than just proximity, as with all contagions, also to be considered at minimum is viral load, air movement, humidity, temperature, size of the carrier droplet, the velocity of the droplets, and the duration of exposure.

To demonstrate in the most basic of terms the likelihood of transmission is obviously greatest with high viral load, small airborne droplets, in a stagnant enclosed small space over a an extended duration.

To put the human petri dish into the equation, for illustrative sake let's take an asymptomatic high load carrier; the most common ways that individual will expel viral loaded droplets includes (listed from smallest, highest velocity, greatest distance carried):

sneeze
cough
laugh
talk
breathe (open mouth)
breathe (through nose)

So if you are standing directly in front of and facing said individual while in a small enclosed, stagnant space and that individual sneezes, yep, you have most definitely been exposed even if you cover your mouth and nose and leave immediately.

If you are in a medium ventilated medium sized room for say an hour with said individual and you are in opposite corners of the room while you both are talking, laughing, and asymptomatic individual coughs and sneezes occasionally you may be exposed due to duration and somewhat confined space.

However, if you are walking outdoors on a lightly breezy day, with the sun shining, and high humidity and said individual simply walks past you without talking and even brushes against you, your chances of exposure are essentially nil.

All this to say, at least initially, I would hear people talk and worry and fret thinking that 1) the virus was rampant and most of the population was destined to get it and 2) if/when they got it, they were destined to die. One of my aunts is a prime example of this erroneous belief - she insisted for weeks my other aunt (her sister) could not have possibly had the virus because if she had she would be dead. Well guess what, my other aunt was tested for the antibodies and indeed she tested positive - it took that for the first aunt to concede that perhaps her initial understanding was misguided.

I am not trying to inundate people with information but knowledge is a great fear reducer and fear reduction is not only good for one's well being it is good for those around us and for the community.

Edited May 21, 2020 by sharkerbaby

Absolom · May 21, 2020

1 hour ago, sharkerbaby said:

the most common ways that individual will expel viral loaded droplets includes (listed from smallest, highest velocity, greatest distance carried):

sneeze

cough

laugh

talk

breathe (open mouth)

breathe (through nose)

Don't forget the choir performance, practice, and singing.

Quite the transmission problem we've seen. 🙂

Your points are well made that the rampant paranoia in some areas has been overblown and many people haven't gotten the hard facts. I haven't wiped down a grocery item yet or seen a reason to do so. I have stayed home except for absolutely essential errands and had my groceries delivered, but I'm in a couple high risk categories if I should get it so that seemed prudent.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Absolom

Kohola3 · May 21, 2020

12 minutes ago, Absolom said:

Don't forget the choir performance, practice, and singing.

And anything else that produces heavy breathing, like stair climbing. Many of our lighthouses are closed for the season because people are exerting themselves climbing up the steps and those are entirely enclosed towers. All of the sanitation in the world won't help.

TurtlePower · May 21, 2020

2 hours ago, sharkerbaby said:

Sure but flattening the curve does not equate to fewer overall cases in the long run it means to spread the number of cases over a longer period of time so as not to overwhelm the health care system. If we all recall, that was the original objective of the stay at home orders, it was not to reduce overall case load. As @DakotaJustice said above in reference to California "if we hadn't done some form of stay at home, a lot of places would have ended up like northern Italy or NYC with terribly overloaded hospitals and people dying at home or in hospital corridors". The virus is not going away the best we can hope for, unless or until a vaccine is developed, is a mutation that makes it less transmissible or less lethal.

And to elaborate a bit on my earlier mention of the feasibility of transmission of the virus while passing by another person. There is a lot more to viral transmission than just proximity, as with all contagions, also to be considered at minimum is viral load, air movement, humidity, temperature, size of the carrier droplet, the velocity of the droplets, and the duration of exposure.

To demonstrate in the most basic of terms the likelihood of transmission is obviously greatest with high viral load, small airborne droplets, in a stagnant enclosed small space over a an extended duration.

To put the human petri dish into the equation, for illustrative sake let's take an asymptomatic high load carrier; the most common ways that individual will expel viral loaded droplets includes (listed from smallest, highest velocity, greatest distance carried):

sneeze

cough

laugh

talk

breathe (open mouth)

breathe (through nose)

So if you are standing directly in front of and facing said individual while in a small enclosed, stagnant space and that individual sneezes, yep, you have most definitely been exposed even if you cover your mouth and nose and leave immediately.

If you are in a medium ventilated medium sized room for say an hour with said individual and you are in opposite corners of the room while you both are talking, laughing, and asymptomatic individual coughs and sneezes occasionally you may be exposed due to duration and somewhat confined space.

However, if you are walking outdoors on a lightly breezy day, with the sun shining, and high humidity and said individual simply walks past you without talking and even brushes against you, your chances of exposure are essentially nil.

All this to say, at least initially, I would hear people talk and worry and fret thinking that 1) the virus was rampant and most of the population was destined to get it and 2) if/when they got it, they were destined to die. One of my aunts is a prime example of this erroneous belief - she insisted for weeks my other aunt (her sister) could not have possibly had the virus because if she had she would be dead. Well guess what, my other aunt was tested for the antibodies and indeed she tested positive - it took that for the first aunt to concede that perhaps her initial understanding was misguided.

I am not trying to inundate people with information but knowledge is a great fear reducer and fear reduction is not only good for one's well being it is good for those around us and for the community.

People will love me. I wear the mask and due to my anxiety/autism, hate speaking. I even hold my breath near people (until I feel I will pass out).

Kyanight · May 21, 2020

Meanwhile in Denver......

DENVER — The Denver Department of Public Health and Environment (DDPHE) has ordered the closure of a mail facility that handles all mail for Colorado and Wyoming.

The public health order was issued to the United States Postal Service (USPS) Processing and Distributing Center at 7550 E. 53rd Place in Denver, following an investigation on Wednesday.

This closure notice, citing no adverse findings, has the potential to impact stimulus checks, prescription medications, personal correspondence, and vital goods delivered to the more than 6.5 million customers who live in Colorado and Wyoming.

I THINK they are going to stay open, despite the order. Small businesses that are struggling right now depend on it.

Crazy times we live in.

galaxychaser · May 22, 2020

21 hours ago, PDXlulu said:

Thought I'd share my work story of the day. I am lucky enough to work in a job that can be done from home, and I manage a team of people who all are able to work from home. Some did, even before the pandemic. We use a lot of video and instant messaging.

Today I am having a video update with one on my employees when their partner walks into the room, completely naked. Naked man realizes his partner is on a video call and starts to back up very slowly. I say nothing to the employee.

Hairiest naked person I have ever seen. Now that I have shared it I can pretend it never happened.

🤣🤣🤣

Yeah No · May 22, 2020

15 hours ago, sharkerbaby said:

Maybe this will help ease some fears,...

CDC now says coronavirus isn’t easily spread by touching surfaces

In addition to the headline another two things of note (which has long been known to be the case and promoted by the CDC even though the message has not been well distributed) - emphasis mine

The Food and Drug Administration said last month there was no evidence to suggest the virus can spread through food, or what it’s wrapped in and that there was no need to wipe down groceries.

The agency continues to note that the virus is thought to mainly spread from person-to-person — even by those not showing symptoms.
Specifically, it mainly spreads between people who are in close contact, within 6 feet of each other, when someone with the infection coughs, sneezes or talks, causing droplets to land in another persons mouth or nose.

So in other words, unlike Pig Pen's dust cloud, the virus is not an invisible cloud that surrounds people allowing it to maliciously jump from person to person and infect them, even if said person walks past another and even brushes against them. Hopefully we can stop looking at every stranger, and sometimes even family members, as the enemy with malevolent intent to infect us causing us to dodge into alley ways, door ways, and behind cars to avoid them, especially since outdoor transmission is thought to be unlikely.

Not to be contrary, but actually this doesn't help ease my fears. I have learned to remain skeptical about anything the CDC or media report as "new" knowledge. The so-called knowledge keeps getting revised and contradicted, and the public becomes confused and naturally skeptical.

Also, there is the matter of emphasis and interpretation. Note that the operative word in those bullet points above is "mainly". The virus is mainly spread between people in close contact, supposedly by the droplets in the air. "Mainly". That doesn't mean to me that the possibility doesn't still exist to some lesser but to date unknown degree, that the virus could still be spread through touching surfaces where these droplets have landed. The truth is that they still don't know to what extent this is possible if it is possible. They are only saying that the virus is mainly spread through close contact without saying anything about surfaces. That's because they really don't know enough yet about surfaces. The virus could still spread by touching surfaces, they just don't know how common or uncommon this is. Maybe they think it's less common, but how do they really know it's that insignificant yet? I don't think they really do. Unfortunately the way it is reported is misleading, just like a lot of Covid-19 reporting. When they say "there is no evidence to support" something it doesn't mean they've evaluated all reasonable sources of evidence and concluded that finding no evidence means it doesn't exist. It just means they haven't uncovered any possible evidence yet, and the truth is that they really don't know. They could be drawing conclusions prematurely based on insufficient evidence. This virus is so new I don't think they have enough evidence yet to come to some of these conclusions.

I read that a pretty amazing percentage of recent cases have come from people who say that they have been isolating at home. Now of course this is based on self-reporting which is notoriously unreliable, but for those that were telling the truth or weren't mistaken, the virus had to get into them somehow.

Plus common sense and experience with other viruses has always pointed towards the possibility of catching them from surfaces. Until there is enough evidence to convince me to the contrary with Covid-19, I will continue to sanitize my hands, my groceries, and quarantine my mail for a day or so. From just the anecdotal evidence I have read, you can't be too careful with this virus and it's better to be safe than sorry because they really don't know enough about it yet.

My father caught and later died from this virus while staying home. He hadn't been out of the house in well over a month when he got it. He said his caregivers came in looking like "space aliens" because they were wearing so many masks and gowns, etc. This virus is highly contagious, probably more contagious than any virus any of us has known in our lifetimes. To me that means not counting out any common avenue for transmission until there is a MOUNTAIN of evidence to exclude it. I personally don't find anything in that article that's going to ease any of my fears. I think these organizations and the media want to look like they a) know something they really don't and b) are able to report something when they really don't have any real news. I think it is going to be some time before the CDC or any organization knows just exactly how this virus spreads, by what means, and to what degree by each of the means. I realize you will probably not agree with me and I respect your opinion and your good intentions for posting the article anyway.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Yeah No

sharkerbaby · May 22, 2020

20 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

Not to be contrary, but actually this doesn't help ease my fears. I have learned to remain skeptical about anything the CDC or media report as "new" knowledge. The so-called knowledge keeps getting revised and contradicted, and the public becomes confused and naturally skeptical.

Also, there is the matter of emphasis and interpretation. Note that the operative word in those bullet points above is "mainly". The virus is mainly spread between people in close contact, supposedly by the droplets in the air. "Mainly". That doesn't mean to me that the possibility doesn't still exist to some lesser but to date unknown degree, that the virus could still be spread through touching surfaces where these droplets have landed. The truth is that they still don't know to what extent this is possible if it is possible. They are only saying that the virus is mainly spread through close contact without saying anything about surfaces. That's because they really don't know enough yet about surfaces. The virus could still spread by touching surfaces, they just don't know how common or uncommon this is. Maybe they think it's less common, but how do they really know it's that insignificant yet? I don't think they really do. Unfortunately the way it is reported is misleading, just like a lot of Covid-19 reporting. When they say "there is no evidence to support" something it doesn't mean they've evaluated all reasonable sources of evidence and concluded that finding no evidence means it doesn't exist. It just means they haven't uncovered any possible evidence yet, and the truth is that they really don't know. They could be drawing conclusions prematurely based on insufficient evidence. This virus is so new I don't think they have enough evidence yet to come to some of these conclusions.

I read that a pretty amazing percentage of recent cases have come from people who say that they have been isolating at home. Now of course this is based on self-reporting which is notoriously unreliable, but for those that were telling the truth or weren't mistaken, the virus had to get into them somehow.

Plus common sense and experience with other viruses has always pointed towards the possibility of catching them from surfaces. Until there is enough evidence to convince me to the contrary with Covid-19, I will continue to sanitize my hands, my groceries, and quarantine my mail for a day or so. From just the anecdotal evidence I have read, you can't be too careful with this virus and it's better to be safe than sorry because they really don't know enough about it yet.

My father caught and later died from this virus while staying home. He hadn't been out of the house in well over a month when he got it. He said his caregivers came in looking like "space aliens" because they were wearing so many masks and gowns, etc. This virus is highly contagious, probably more contagious than any virus any of us has known in our lifetimes. To me that means not counting out any common avenue for transmission until there is a MOUNTAIN of evidence to exclude it. I personally don't find anything in that article that's going to ease any of my fears. I think these organizations and the media want to look like they a) know something they really don't and b) are able to report something when they really don't have any real news. I think it is going to be some time before the CDC or any organization knows just exactly how this virus spreads, by what means, and to what degree by each of the means. I realize you will probably not agree with me and I respect your opinion and your good intentions for posting the article anyway.

All fair points, all are valid, and all have merit. I too am mostly skeptical about most of the information that is being brought forward and I even postulated somewhere that I don't think we will have a true and accurate picture for at least 5 years mainly because it's going to take at least that long for researchers, scientists, agencies, the media and others to regain their impartiality. I also agree that in the big scheme of things very little is truly known with certainty. Moreover, I do not think that all the actions that were taken were in vain and completely uncalled for. I do however believe the response could and should have been more measured and more targeted. I do also believe that spinning the populace into a frenzy served a purpose and once they claimed their hill to stand on it had to be defended at all costs. So yeah, I completely agree with your statement "organizations and media want to look like they a) know something they really don't and b) are able to report something when they really don't have any real news."

Yeah No · May 22, 2020

8 hours ago, sharkerbaby said:

Sure but flattening the curve does not equate to fewer overall cases in the long run it means to spread the number of cases over a longer period of time so as not to overwhelm the health care system. If we all recall, that was the original objective of the stay at home orders, it was not to reduce overall case load. As @DakotaJustice said above in reference to California "if we hadn't done some form of stay at home, a lot of places would have ended up like northern Italy or NYC with terribly overloaded hospitals and people dying at home or in hospital corridors". The virus is not going away the best we can hope for, unless or until a vaccine is developed, is a mutation that makes it less transmissible or less lethal.

I'm aware of this but I do think that flattening the curve and seeing the curve go downhill could mean fewer overall cases, not just slowing down the same overall number. Unfortunately it means not becoming complacent and sticking to the social distancing and other measures for a longer period than is comfortable or else the numbers will start to rise again. The people that are the most vulnerable will need to engage in self isolation longer. If they continue to isolate, sure, the overall numbers would continue to add up, they would just do so over a longer period of time. But if people still engage in some important mitigation efforts I do think it will lower the overall number in the big picture because it will hopefully have enough of an effect to keep overall cases at a lower number until such time that a vaccine or other treatment is developed. Hopefully being the operative word in that sentence!

8 hours ago, sharkerbaby said:

So if you are standing directly in front of and facing said individual while in a small enclosed, stagnant space and that individual sneezes, yep, you have most definitely been exposed even if you cover your mouth and nose and leave immediately.

If you are in a medium ventilated medium sized room for say an hour with said individual and you are in opposite corners of the room while you both are talking, laughing, and asymptomatic individual coughs and sneezes occasionally you may be exposed due to duration and somewhat confined space.

However, if you are walking outdoors on a lightly breezy day, with the sun shining, and high humidity and said individual simply walks past you without talking and even brushes against you, your chances of exposure are essentially nil.

All this to say, at least initially, I would hear people talk and worry and fret thinking that 1) the virus was rampant and most of the population was destined to get it and 2) if/when they got it, they were destined to die. One of my aunts is a prime example of this erroneous belief - she insisted for weeks my other aunt (her sister) could not have possibly had the virus because if she had she would be dead. Well guess what, my other aunt was tested for the antibodies and indeed she tested positive - it took that for the first aunt to concede that perhaps her initial understanding was misguided.

I am not trying to inundate people with information but knowledge is a great fear reducer and fear reduction is not only good for one's well being it is good for those around us and for the community.

I've been aware of these things too but this virus is so insidious it continually seems to defy logic. I don't know if it was posted here but I saw an article that discussed a few cases where a lot of contact tracing was done. One was in an office and another in a restaurant. One desk or table got the virus the other didn't and it didn't even seem to make any sense when one looked at the way the air ventilation traveled. And some people at one table got it while others didn't. I have heard this virus called "capricious". I agree. I also think there are other factors such as how susceptible any individual is to catching the virus based on their own medical conditions and DNA. Those factors could also make someone more likely to get it under the same circumstances as someone else with a different DNA "hand" and immune system.

Now I know that drawing comparisons between this and the flu isn't advised, but I can think of several times in my young life where I was at an event or party in close contact with someone that I later realized I caught the flu from (because they were the only person that could have given it to me). None of my other friends, who were just as close to them got the bug. Only me.

Once when I was young I was sick and my boyfriend at the time was so crazy about me he didn't care and didn't stay away from me. He never got sick. Neither of my parents got sick despite living in a small apartment with them. In fact, I would often get colds and flus and my parents never caught them from me even though I breathed in the same stale apartment air with them all the time.

Last September my husband the limo. driver brought home some strange virus from an overseas passenger that in retrospect suspiciously resembled the symptoms of Covid-19. We both got sick only he had a glancing blow while I was flat on my back for over a MONTH. So speaking of antibodies, I keep telling him we should get antibody tests because now I'm reading that they think the original form of the virus could have been around since last September in a less contagious and virulent form.

There was also another article that may have been posted here that listed the worst offending places for catching the virus and of course the smaller the room, the longer the contact, the higher the odds. Even larger rooms can be as bad if there are more people in them talking and or otherwise breathing heavier.

About 4 years ago I caught the flu from my doctor. Ironically I went to him to get a flu shot. He gave me the shot instead of the assistant that time. I was only in the room with him for a few minutes. A day later I started feeling sick and I knew it had to be from him because I had been isolating at home due to recovering from a broken arm and related surgery. BTW, my husband, who shares constant space and a bed with me never caught it. I still can't believe that.

So now I will have a fear of going to the doctor (he's only seeing people virtually now anyway). I don't care how many masks a doctor wears. Another article I read showed in special photography how masks are less effective than people think at preventing the droplets from getting to you. Sure, you'd have to be close to them to be affected, but getting a haircut qualifies as that close. A lot of activities would qualify as that close, and some are ones that my state is currently opening up in phase 1!

Also, I have nightmares at night about going into the elevator in my father's building. Or having to walk past someone in the stuffy hallway. I've already posted about that. There are many situations that qualify as risky. Going into a rest room where someone just spent several minutes and the air is still heavy with their breath is another one. I am not young enough to go out and not have to go at least once during the day. If I drive down to NYC where will I go to the rest room after a 2 hour drive? Even my "favorite" rest stop will feel risky.

So yeah, I am still afraid. Knowledge can be a double edged sword.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Yeah No

sharkerbaby · May 22, 2020

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

I'm aware of this but I do think that flattening the curve and seeing the curve go downhill could mean fewer overall cases, not just slowing down the same overall number. Unfortunately it means not becoming complacent and sticking to the social distancing and other measures for a longer period than is comfortable or else the numbers will start to rise again. The people that are the most vulnerable will need to engage in self isolation longer. If they all went back to living like before, sure, the overall numbers would be the same as if no measures were taken, they would just add up over a longer period of time. But if people still engage in some important mitigation efforts I do think it will lower the overall number in the big picture. Hopefully this will have enough of an effect to keep overall cases at a lower number until such time that a vaccine or other treatment is developed.

I've been aware of these things too but this virus is so insidious it continually seems to defy logic. I don't know if it was posted here but I saw an article that discussed a few cases where a lot of contact tracing was done. One was in an office and another in a restaurant. One desk or table got the virus the other didn't and it didn't even seem to make any sense when one looked at the way the air ventilation traveled. And some people at one table got it while others didn't. I have heard this virus called "capricious". I agree. I also think there are other factors such as how susceptible any individual is to catching the virus based on their own medical conditions and DNA. Those factors could also make someone more likely to get it under the same circumstances as someone else with a different DNA "hand" and immune system.

Now I know that drawing comparisons between this and the flu isn't advised, but I can think of several times in my young life where I was at an event or party in close contact with someone that I later realized I caught the flu from (because they were the only person that could have given it to me). None of my other friends, who were just as close to them got the bug. Only me.

Once when I was young I was sick and my boyfriend at the time was so crazy about me he didn't care and didn't stay away from me. He never got sick. Neither of my parents got sick despite living in a small apartment with them. In fact, I would often get colds and flus and my parents never caught them from me even though I breathed in the same stale apartment air with them all the time.

Last September my husband the limo. driver brought home some strange virus from an overseas passenger that in retrospect suspiciously resembled the symptoms of Covid-19. We both got sick only he had a glancing blow while I was flat on my back for over a MONTH. So speaking of antibodies, I keep telling him we should get antibody tests because now I'm reading that they think the original form of the virus could have been around since last September in a less contagious and virulent form.

There was also another article that may have been posted here that listed the worst offending places for catching the virus and of course the smaller the room, the longer the contact, the higher the odds. Even larger rooms can be as bad if there are more people in them talking and or otherwise breathing heavier.

About 4 years ago I caught the flu from my doctor. Ironically I went to him to get a flu shot. He gave me the shot instead of the assistant that time. I was only in the room with him for a few minutes. A day later I started feeling sick and I knew it had to be from him because I had been isolating at home due to recovering from a broken arm and related surgery. BTW, my husband, who shares constant space and a bed with me never caught it. I still can't believe that.

So now I will have a fear of going to the doctor (he's only seeing people virtually now anyway). I don't care how many masks a doctor wears. Another article I read showed in special photography how masks are less effective than people think at preventing the droplets from getting to you. Sure, you'd have to be close to them to be affected, but getting a haircut qualifies as that close. A lot of activities would qualify as that close, and some are ones that my state is currently opening up in phase 1!

Also, I have nightmares at night about going into the elevator in my father's building. Or having to walk past someone in the stuffy hallway. I've already posted about that. There are many situations that qualify as risky. Going into a rest room where someone just spent several minutes and the air is still heavy with their breath is another one. I am not young enough to go out and not have to go at least once during the day. If I drive down to NYC where will I go to the rest room after a 2 hour drive? Even my "favorite" rest stop will feel risky.

So yeah, I am still afraid. Knowledge can be a double edged sword.

Once again, all fair points, all valid, and all have merit. And you are absolutely correct in your assertion that susceptibility to any contagion is at least in part due to one's own physiology as is their body's response once the individual becomes infected.

I too believe, as you do, that this virus or some form of it was present since at least last September although I can find no reliable source to hang my hat on. Further, once again, even if it emerged earlier than the current narrative claims, we will not know about it for quite sometime as it disrupts the commentary and would require the world to find a new patient 0 and originating source.

My only slightly contrary thought is to point out that I think, as it pertains to this particular discussion regarding the transmission of the virus, comparison to an influenza virus is quite relevant. In that regard they are similar in that both are transmitted from person to person in a very similar manner, with a primary difference being their respective virulence.

eta: I forgot to highlight your quote "Knowledge can be a double edged sword" - so true, so very very true!

Edited May 22, 2020 by sharkerbaby

Meowwww · May 22, 2020

I also agree that the virus has been around since fall.
I think I’ve shared, hubby and I went to London in October. I was so sick, came down with it two days into our trip. Wheezed and coughed for months afterwards, flu test negative, antibiotics did no good.
I too am one of those who gets sick ALL the time. Every vacation, too, which sucks, no matter how much I sanitize. Hubby almost never catches it from me.
I also want an antibody test, just to see. But who knows how accurate they really are.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Meowwww

ginger90 · May 22, 2020

The other day I saw what I presume to be a health care worker, walking to her car. She had just left a high rise that houses mostly elderly people. She was wearing gloves, and a yellow gown. So, was she wearing what she had on while she was in someone’s apartment? Was it protective gear because she was seeing someone with the virus, or some infection that is transmitted through blood or other bodily fluids there? Was she simply wearing it everywhere?
Donning PPE is not just put it on and keep it on. That defeats the purpose. Arriving somewhere with it on, also is not correct procedure.

Edited May 22, 2020 by ginger90

Kyanight · May 22, 2020

8 hours ago, Yeah No said:

About 4 years ago I caught the flu from my doctor. Ironically I went to him to get a flu shot. He gave me the shot instead of the assistant that time. I was only in the room with him for a few minutes. A day later I started feeling sick and I knew it had to be from him because I had been isolating at home due to recovering from a broken arm and related surgery. BTW, my husband, who shares constant space and a bed with me never caught it. I still can't believe that.

Just wondering.... a doctor's office is a smorgasbord of germs and bacteria dropped by everyone who goes in and out of the place. Is it possible that you caught the flu from a door handle or any other surface and not the doctor? I guess the point is moot because you could still catch anything by going to the medical building.....

As far an antibody tests... until they know that people can even BUILD UP immunities from this virus, it's not all that helpful. People are getting this twice. So if the virus is mutating (like any virus) and you can catch different strains as you go along and the strains are all lethal - what is the point of antibodies? By the time you are immune to strain A, strain B has already started spreading through the masses.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Kyanight

Yeah No · May 22, 2020

10 hours ago, sharkerbaby said:

Once again, all fair points, all valid, and all have merit. And you are absolutely correct in your assertion that susceptibility to any contagion is at least in part due to one's own physiology as is their body's response once the individual becomes infected.

I too believe, as you do, that this virus or some form of it was present since at least last September although I can find no reliable source to hang my hat on. Further, once again, even if it emerged earlier than the current narrative claims, we will not know about it for quite sometime as it disrupts the commentary and would require the world to find a new patient 0 and originating source.

My only slightly contrary thought is to point out that I think, as it pertains to this particular discussion regarding the transmission of the virus, comparison to an influenza virus is quite relevant. In that regard they are similar in that both are transmitted from person to person in a very similar manner, with a primary difference being their respective virulence.

eta: I forgot to highlight your quote "Knowledge can be a double edged sword" - so true, so very very true!

Thank you. I do appreciate you sharing this information. I wish I could find the articles I referenced regarding the suspicion that the virus was around since last September in its earliest form. Also the articles about the droplets wearing a mask and without and the documented contact tracing cases. I'm going to have to research my computer and laptop histories to find them.

Yeah No · May 22, 2020

2 hours ago, Kyanight said:

Just wondering.... a doctor's office is a smorgasbord of germs and bacteria dropped by everyone who goes in and out of the place. Is it possible that you caught the flu from a door handle or any other surface and not the doctor? I guess the point is moot because you could still catch anything by going to the medical building.....

You do realize you're talking to a serious germophobe from way back, don't you? LOL 😉

Yes, even back then I was well aware of the germ-fests doctor's offices are and engaged in the most obsessive-compulsive germ avoidance behaviors known to mankind going in and out. I was already nervous knowing that it was getting into flu season and so I was on red alert which for me is just shy of wearing a hazmat suit and respirator, LOL. In other words, I used a tissue to open the door and sanitized immediately. I didn't even touch any of the magazines in the waiting room - I haven't done that in years. I didn't even sit down!!! I was the only person in the waiting room. I didn't get close to any of the staff either. The closest contact I had with any of the staff was through a plate glass window and there were only 2 women in the office because it was lunch time. I didn't have to hand over any payment either. Since I was going there just for the flu shot I assumed a nurse would give it to me but there was no one around so the doctor called me in and did it himself. Got the shot, left and bathed in sanitizer on the way to the car and in the car. I even sanitized my steering wheel (I do that a lot). By the end of that day I was already feeling ill. Before that I was absolutely fine.

Later I went over and over again in my mind every step I took that day and beforehand trying to link it to something or someone else but came up empty handed (that's why 4 years later I remember it so well). It was almost a "desert island situation". I had not been out of my house in weeks before that because I was recuperating from my arm break and surgery. I had no visitors in that time. So I was completely convinced that I caught it from the doctor, or perhaps there was stale air trapped in the room from a previous patient that gave it to me. At the time my father thought I might have gotten the flu from the flu shot but I know that's really not possible so I eliminated that possibility right away. By the way, my arm swelled up a lot that time because doctors are notoriously inexperienced or out of practice at giving flu shots and don't get you in the right spot.

When I saw my doctor for another reason months later I mentioned it to him and told him I suspected that I caught it when I was there the previous time. He didn't admit to having been sick around that time and the only response he gave me was, "I think you just got unlucky".

TELL ME ABOUT IT. Story of my life, LOL. 🙄

2 hours ago, Kyanight said:

As far an antibody tests... until they know that people can even BUILD UP immunities from this virus, it's not all that helpful. People are getting this twice. So if the virus is mutating (like any virus) and you can catch different strains as you go along and the strains are all lethal - what is the point of antibodies? By the time you are immune to strain A, strain B has already started spreading through the masses.

Yeah, I already know that but I still want to know if I had whatever version of this that was around back then. It might be of use when they finally figure out what if any immunity it might give me, which might make me feel a little less like this would be a certain death sentence if I got it. Maybe it might mean I'd have some chance of living! Of course that depends on how deadly newly mutated versions become and other unknown factors. I am personally hopeful that any new strains that show up will be better handled than the fist wave, which we were way too slow to react to as @sharkerbaby has pointed out.

Yeah No · May 22, 2020

4 hours ago, Meowwww said:

I too am one of those who gets sick ALL the time. Every vacation, too, which sucks, no matter how much I sanitize. Hubby almost never catches it from me.
I also want an antibody test, just to see. But who knows how accurate they really are.

I used to be one of those people that got sick all the time but I think the reason I don't now is because I don't expose myself to some of the social situations I used to regularly frequent plus I don't work in an office anymore. I know I caught stuff from coworkers all the time that didn't stay home when they were sick. I used to HATE that but they did it all the time. Of course when I caught whatever they had I was always the one flat on my back for a week while they were able to work all through. Hubby and I haven't been on a real vacation in a long time so that hasn't been a source either. I also stopped going to gyms because they were germ-fests. You get all those people huffing and puffing on machines and there are germs everywhere. Sanitizing the equipment before every use was not enough. It was so bad I knew I was getting constant colds from the gym and quit just for that reason alone. As soon as I stopped I didn't get sick so often.

So before last September I hadn't had any kind of cold or virus in 3 and a half years.

But given my experience with viruses is it any wonder I'm as worried about this one as I am???

lookeyloo · May 22, 2020

I love reading everyone's comments. I don't know where I fall on what to believe. I like to believe I am doing all necessary. Staying mostly at home, walking in subdivision where I rarely see anyone else walking unless it is Mr lookeyloo who started out before me. Finally ventured to a Publix that I heard was doing a good job. I was in and out in about 15 minutes, very good social distancing, I thought. In some of the one way aisles I was alone. Big store, hoping ventilation was good. Staff wiping down handles on frozen food cases. Only going to sick son's house once a week. Still wiping things, washing hands a lot even though it is just the two of us inside. I also sanitize the steering wheel, outside door handle, etc.

Also, haven't had a cold in years although people around me get them. I don't know why. I know I wash my hands a lot normally and don't touch my face. But I have been going to two gyms almost every day before this. And grocery stores, etc. I know that doesn't make me immune to COVID, so being wary.

Mostly from what I've read on various sites, it seems to me the highest probability of catching is from a contagious person(s)' exhale in large enough quantities. I guess that amount is different for everyone? Some people won't get sick regardless I'm thinking. Some will by reading about it, JK. Which doesn't rule out a fresh concentration on a package that one touches, touches face, etc. I guess that will always be possible, but maybe not as likely.

I was someone who liked to get up and out every day which is why I went to the gym. A destination of sorts. I took classes and had some gym friends to talk to. then stop at grocery store on way home. I'm finding more and more I don't miss it. Or them. I guess life will change in a more permanent way the longer it goes on. Will have to figure something out for cold weather because I just feel awful walking in the cold, no matter how bundled up I get.

We took tests through the county health department, came back negative, took with grain of salt. And then heard tests weren't all that reliable (not the abbott quick test). Anyway, no symptoms (yet I guess I should say)

Anyway, enjoying this conversation.

Kyanight · May 22, 2020

25 minutes ago, lookeyloo said:

I guess life will change in a more permanent way the longer it goes on.

I agree. Just not sure how and what it will look like.

Sweet Tomatoes (also called Soup Plantation in some states) closed their doors permanently over Covid. We had one that was a bit of a drive from us so we didn't go as often as I would have liked to, but I LOVED the HUGE variety of salad "fixings" and side dishes they had. I had a lot of really pleasant meals and conversation there through the years with friends and family. They will be missed. 😞

lookeyloo · May 22, 2020

2 minutes ago, Kyanight said:

I agree. Just not sure how and what it will look like.

Sweet Tomatoes (also called Soup Plantation in some states) closed their doors permanently over Covid. We had one that was a bit of a drive from us so we didn't go as often as I would have liked to, but I LOVED the HUGE variety of salad "fixings" and side dishes they had. I had a lot of really pleasant meals and conversation there through the years with friends and family. They will be missed. 😞

Yes we loved them and finally moved close enough to go sort of regularly. We will miss them

Kohola3 · May 22, 2020

We don't have any chain restaurants (well, except McD's) around here. Some of our mom & pop places have been limping along doing curbside or pick up. I try and drive into town once a week to order something to keep them afloat - and to make sure I still know how to drive. This is a resort town in MI and they need to make their entire profit in 3-4 months so it will be interesting to see how many are still around next year. We all have our favorites and mine has been closed all along. I do plan on buying meals from them when they open up but only carry out. I already know I will not be going into any enclosed spaces unless it's absolutely necessary especially as the tourists are heading this way. The majority of cases have been downstate and I know people will be dragging it with them as they "invade my space". So, it's entirely up to me to keep myself safe even if it means continued isolation.

I have been lucky in the communicable disease department. I was a nurse for 45 years and I worked in different departments including ER. I was exposed to all kinds of stuff so I think I developed immunity to just about everything. I was only sick once, with strep throat, in all of that time.

ChristmasJones · May 22, 2020

For anyone who enjoys podcasts and would appreciate a scientific discussion about the virus, there is a great podcast which is hosted by three virologists. Its been around for years (they have over 600 episodes), but shifted to exclusively discussing coronavirus in January. Its called This Week in Virology - https://www.microbe.tv/twiv/ While some of the scientific information goes over my head at times, its become my preferred source for staying up to date on the virus. Its enjoyable to listen to - they all have nice voices and a sense of humor, so its serious without being dry and boring.

AZChristian · May 22, 2020

I found out yesterday that Universal Orlando is opening back up on June 5, with stringent caution being taken. If the reopening goes well (and some of the restrictions are safely lifted), I'd love to go in September. It would be my 10th anniversary (and 7th time) visit to the Wizarding World of Harry Potter.

sharkerbaby · May 22, 2020

7 minutes ago, ChristmasJones said:

For anyone who enjoys podcasts and would appreciate a scientific discussion about the virus, there is a great podcast which is hosted by three virologists. Its been around for years (they have over 600 episodes), but shifted to exclusively discussing coronavirus in January. Its called This Week in Virology - https://www.microbe.tv/twiv/ While some of the scientific information goes over my head at times, its become my preferred source for staying up to date on the virus. Its enjoyable to listen to - they all have nice voices and a sense of humor, so its serious without being dry and boring.

Thank you. I'll definitely check it out!

Nysha · May 22, 2020

The restaurants in my town were allowed to open last week. I got take out from one and it was packed. I wore my mask to pick up my food and then couldn't eat it b/c the thought of all those people breathing on my food turned my stomach.

We have several restaurants still keeping to only take-out, so I'll limit myself to those places.

AZChristian · May 22, 2020

1 hour ago, Nysha said:

We have several restaurants still keeping to only take-out, so I'll limit myself to those places.

I'm with you 100% . . . except I'm not even doing take-out at this point. Our primary interaction with retail folks is when they put bags in the back of our SUV from curbside pickup. And everything they put in the bag gets clorox wiped when it comes into our house.

I'm old and high-risk.

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