S02.E06: 206

[truthaboutluv]

In the previews for next week at a dinner party, there seems to be some sort of tension between Alison and some woman named Eden(?) I think as well as Alison and Noah.  Does anyone know who Eden is?.  

 

It looked like it might be a latest girlfriend of Max's. I could swear I remember seeing him at the dinner table where this whole conversation is taking place. 

[teddysmom]

She chose to remain "wealthy" without working for it.  If she really wants to be independent, she will have to transfer her kids into public school, sell the brownstone and move into a 2 bedroom in Queens.

 

 

She'll get a job with Jon Gottlieb. 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

A Medical Emergency Reunites The Solloways On The Affair
Well, not you, Margaret, but everyone else seems to be getting along. Also, Noah tramples over Alison in more ways than we care to count.

[RedheadZombie]

OK, am I the only one confused?  They've teased us with this "memory" of Noah driving and running over someone, and now it turns out it's just a vision, or a plot in his book?  He certainly can't remember a death that hasn't occurred yet. 

 

I absolutely loved Helen's POV. I didn't like that she put all of her shit on her mother because she did listen to the woman for years, but she was right in kicking her out so she could finally have a piece of mind. During the end of the flashback, I assumed that Helen got cut off and I think the present day scene proves that. I also, loved how Helen was such an adult about the whole thing with Noah. Sure, they argued in the waiting room, but Helen just was tired of the constant fighting and knew that Noah would be silent, but not budge about his stance. I love the breakdown and that Whitney supported her, but I didn't like Whitney resting to go to Noah's place because she wouldn't have her own room, but she does have a point: it's split custody. It's okay for a weekend, not for half of time. And when Helen decided to just settle with Noah, she was very accommodating and selfless. Of course, Noah would accept a compliment, but wouldn't give it.

 

For the first time, I almost loved Helen!  What a revelation.  I was so proud of her when she told off Margaret, but she was really vicious.  She absolutely eviscerated her.  I don't think she should have laid it all on her mother, and the "are you happy now", was a little childish, but I think it was cathartic.  For all we know, she called her mother the next day and apologized.  Yeah, Whitney was still a diva about visitation, but she dropped the act when Helen needed comforting.

 

I think Helen was very accommodating, but I wouldn't call her selfless.  I think she simply realized she had been acting out of spite, and maybe that's just not Helen's nature.  If she honestly felt Noah was a good father (which she did state), it would be spiteful to try to keep him from the children.  It was kind of her to let the children be around Alison, but maybe she accepts that Alison is going to be their step-mother, and wants to nurture that future relationship.  So again, not selfless, but mature and putting her children first.

 

At this point, I'm not convinced that Helen has been cut off.  I would think that Helen telling off Margaret, would ingratiate Helen towards Bruce.  I'm sure there's been a push and pull between her parents her whole life, and I really felt empathy for Helen in the attorney's office.   

 

Regarding Noah not returning Helen's compliment - I thought he would tell her the same, but I think he was filled with emotion and honestly moved by what she said.  Also, Helen's mothering ability has never been in question (other than from some of the audience).  In his way, he also really compromised for the good of the kids.  By saying all he wanted was co-custody, he was saying it wasn't about getting Helen's money.  So they were both giving up the anger and petty behavior for the best of their kids.

 

Noah is such a pig that I'm actually beginning to lose interest in a show I NEVER thought I would lose interest in. So Helen has grown up - and done a surprisingly good job of it - and Alison has grown up or at least come to terms with her past, but Noah hasn't budged from his carved-in-stone assholiness. The sex/rape scene with Alison made me want to puke: Noah seriously wants to destroy her now that she has become more or less independent of him, dared to criticize his masterpiece and worst of all, befriended Sebastian Junger who is a better writer with his hands tied behind his back than Noah could ever hope to be. Unfortunately for the story line (IMO of course) Alison's pregnancy now strikes me as a completely trite plot point to pull these two people who truly seem to have nothing in common back together. So all of that bullshit reichi stuff was Noah's vision of a new ending for his book? Or what? Despite cheering for Helen's emotional growth spurt, I found this episode alternately irritating and unsettling, but in the end, not particularly compelling..

 

After a wonderful first half, I really grimaced a lot in the second half.  For the first time, it was as if the two halves were disconnected, and written by two different people.  After softening and humanizing Noah, they destroyed it all in his version.  I did like his apologizing for not understanding about Gabriel's loss.

 

I wouldn't call that scene "rape", but it was disturbing.  She had that similar rough sex scene with Cole in season one.  And even though in Alison's version she was compelling Cole to be rough, he got off on it, too.  Now Cole lovers can say that whole scene was a lie, but both Alison and Noah saw it as borderline violent, Alison's just made it her choice.  All I could do was worry Ruth's face was going to ripped apart on the bark.

 

I would be curious to see the second half in Alison's version.  Did she really only make male friends?  It doesn't seem likely.  Alison's close friends in season one were all female - waitress, musician, and sister-in-law.  So it's more of Noah's insecurity, or his perception that she's a femme fatale?  Edited to add: Interestingly, Noah sees Alison wearing a bathing suit, while everyone else was nude.  That's a rather modest thing to do, and I don't think it was because RW didn't want to do a nude scene.

 

On another shallow note: thanks for having the guy walk past Noah's view of Allison who was clearly well endowed. I don't know what it was supposed to mean but I surely appreciated it!

 

Thank God somebody finally said it!  I rewound it three times, thinking that can't be real.  And the man kind of looks at the camera as he sashays by, almost winking, and like he's saying - Yes, the stereotype is true.

Edited November 9, 2015 by RedheadZombie

[nara]

OK, am I the only one confused?  They've teased us with this "memory" of Noah driving and running over someone, and now it turns out it's just a vision, or a plot in his book?  He certainly can't remember a death that hasn't occurred yet. 

 

At this point, I'm not convinced that Helen has been cut off.  I would think that Helen telling off Margaret, would ingratiate Helen towards Bruce.  I'm sure there's been a push and pull between her parents her whole life, and I really felt empathy for Helen in the attorney's office.   

 

...

 

I would be curious to see the second half in Alison's version.  Did she really only make male friends?  It doesn't seem likely.  Alison's close friends in season one were all female - waitress, musician, and sister-in-law.  So it's more of Noah's insecurity, or his perception that she's a femme fatale?

 

Re: Memory/Vision -- I think that running over Allison is his imagination/vision.  I suspect that part of the reason he is suspected in Scott's death is that it is very similar to the end of his book.

 

Re: Cut off -- I think that in a future episode we may see a confrontation between Helen and her father, leading to the money issue.  Also, her father's new girlfriend may create a rift between father and daughter.

 

Re: Allison's friends -- Actually, from what we know of Allison, I think it's very plausible that she makes friends faster with men than women.  (We saw this with Yvonne and Robert before they read the book.) Even if she is not openly flirting with them, some women just give off a vibe that attracts men. She is close to her sister-in-law and her colleague at the diner, but we don't know how long it took her to become friends.  I will allow that this might be exaggerated by Noah's perspective.

[Nanrad]

Thank God somebody finally said it!  I rewound it three times, thinking that can't be real.  And the man kind of looks at the camera as he sashays by, almost winking, and like he's saying - Yes, the stereotype is true.

lmfao.

 

I actually vaguely referenced this with my eggplant comment.

 

There is this meme on social media that references well endowed penises by saying eggplant. The story behind this is that a singer/rapper took a picture of himself and you could see the outline of his penis through his sweats and, rather than flat out mentioning this, comments instead spoke about the eggplant on the counter when they were really talking about his penis. lol

[truthaboutluv]

I wouldn't call that scene "rape", but it was disturbing.  She had that similar rough sex scene with Cole in season one.  And even though in Alison's version she was compelling Cole to be rough, he got off on it, too.  Now Cole lovers can say that whole scene was a lie, but both Alison and Noah saw it as borderline violent, Alison's just made it her choice.

 

 

I don't think anyone has questioned the scene between Cole and Alison in Season 1 being a lie. However, there are significant differences in the situation in my opinion and I don't think that necessarily means one is a "Cole lover" to think that. I think the reason the Noah and Alison scene was so particularly disturbing to some viewers is that it came on the heels of Alison making it very clear that she was bothered by Noah's image of her as this borderline nymphomaniac, based on his book and that even while she could somewhat understand it, she realized it was because she had been using sex as a crutch because she couldn't verbally deal with her pain. However, she didn't want to do that or be that person anymore. 

 

And so what happens just a few hours later, Noah grabbing and fucking her roughly up against a tree, in response to her telling him he doesn't control her. This by the way, after his response to her sharing her feelings about her reckless behavior and how she thought she used sex as a crutch, by basically saying, "okay great, will you be continuing this when we leave here." In other words, great she was doing all her soul searching but he was more concerned with making sure he was still going to get laid. 

 

In the situation with Cole and Alison, again, Noah saw the moment as violent because he couldn't hear them and didn't know what was really going on. In Alison's memory she filled in the blanks and what I saw was a woman so buried in grief and in so much pain and in that moment wanted her husband to make it stop any way possible and she said as much. Alison actually says to Cole, "please make it stop." To which Cole heartbreakingly says he doesn't know how.

 

Again YMMV but I saw that scene as heartbreaking and yeah maybe disturbing on the level of how much emotional pain Alison was in. But the two scenes are in no way comparable. And in fact, that scene spoke to exactly what Alison was telling Noah she realized about herself - that she couldn't verbalize how much pain she was in so she used sex to communicate. 

 

YMMV but I don't think everything has to be a tit for tat with the characters. Especially when the context, dialogue and tone are all markedly different. And also because I don't see anyone comparing Noah to Cole and saying how much better Cole is. Most comments about Noah and one's dislike of him are based solely on the character's actions. At least it is for me. But to each his own. 

Edited November 9, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[RedheadZombie]

I'm starting to think that a lot of what we see in action, is actually a metaphor for what the character is thinking/feeling.  For instance, in the first episode we see Alison running to the bathroom and vomiting after Stacey chokes.  I think that was the simplest way of conveying how freaked out Alison was.  And Noah turning Alison around and going at her against a tree, represents his feelings of insecurity in the stability of their relationship, and his feeling that he's lost control.  It's also possible that Alison remembered Cole pointing his gun at her and his own head rather than the others, because she's internalized the guilt of causing his pain.  What if none of those things happened the way they were represented, but not because of the characters were dishonest in their memories. 

 

Not only that, but he turned Alison around to take her from behind, Noah's m.o. when he feels the need to reassert dominance (he did the same thing to Helen when they briefly got back together last season).

 

But Cole also did the same to Alison in season one.  I think the writers must think it's hot and edgy.

 

Why has it been six weeks since Noah and Alison have sceen each other? Martin was only in the hospital for ten days so where was Noah for the other 32 days?

 

Finishing the litigation, finding the apartment and moving in, co-parenting the children?  Honestly, I think the "six weeks" apart was specifically to cast doubt on the paternity of Alison's baby.  Classic soap tactic.

 

If this all ends up that the two original couples get back together it will be BONKERS.  

 

You know, after the last two episodes, I'm beginning to think that's exactly where they're going.  And I'm surprisingly ok with it.  Maybe the bigger message is relationships can ultimately survive infidelity.  The scenes with Cole/Alison last week, and Noah/Helen this week, were very poignant.

 

I didn't get that because remember Helen is the one paying the guy to represent Noah who we know is not cheap because Noah specifically said he couldn't afford him when he showed up. As someone above said, she probably just doesn't have access to that kind of money on the fly since a lot of her assets is in the trust and she mentioned selling the house as an off-hand suggestion, with the clear indication that she could get the money if she really wanted to. The father is an asshole sure but the mother is who Helen went off which I doubt he would care about. So I can't see why her dad would cut her off. 

 

Yeah, I think we need more evidence that Helen's been cut off.  I think even with Bruce's wealth, it would be difficult to be liquid enough to have $100,000 in cash.  There's also the fact that they have to funnel the money to Oscar in a way that can't be traced back to Helen. 

[RedheadZombie]

Again YMMV but I saw that scene as heartbreaking and yeah maybe disturbing on the level of how much emotional pain Alison was in. But the two scenes are in no way comparable. And in fact, that scene spoke to exactly what Alison was telling Noah she realized about herself - that she couldn't verbalize how much pain she was in so she used sex to communicate. 

 

YMMV but I don't think everything has to be a tit for tat with the characters. Especially when the context, dialogue and tone are all markedly different. And also because I don't see anyone comparing Noah to Cole and saying how much better Cole is. Most comments about Noah and one's dislike of him are based solely on the character's actions. At least it is for me. But to each his own. 

 

Of course the context is different, but I do think the writers deliberately drew a comparison, so I'm drawing a comparison.  It was rough sex, they were in public, and Alison was upright and facing away from her partner.  I don't think I implied that Cole was no better than Noah.  I did say that I don't believe Cole was rough with Alison only because she wanted him to be.  He got off on it, which means he got something out of it. I also think it's (in part) why Alison seems to see men as more threatening.  She probably thinks being treated roughly is what she deserves. 

[Constantinople]

Not only that, but he turned Alison around to take her from behind, Noah's m.o. when he feels the need to reassert dominance (he did the same thing to Helen when they briefly got back together last season).

 

But Cole also did the same to Alison in season one.  I think the writers must think it's hot and edgy.

And Noah watched.

In the very next episode, Noah jerked off while remembering it.

So I tend to associate it with Noah.

[Margherita Erdman]

I thought this episode felt very different from previous ones, and not necessarily in a good way. Like the person who wrote this one maybe hadn't been watching the show or just had a totally different outlook on the characters.

I noticed that David Henry Hwang had the writing credit on this episode right up front, and I thought it showed (in a good way). Has he written any of the other episodes? I hope he stays involved, because I thought he did wonders giving deeper dimension to the characters without changing who they are.

There is this meme on social media that references well endowed penises by saying eggplant. The story behind this is that a singer/rapper took a picture of himself and you could see the outline of his penis through his sweats and, rather than flat out mentioning this, comments instead spoke about the eggplant on the counter when they were really talking about his penis. lol

I thought the eggplant thing was because in lieu of anatomically correct emoji, folks have taken to improvising with fruits, veggies, legumes etc.—

Edited November 9, 2015 by Margherita Erdman

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

I got that Helen was cut off, but not why. I don't see her father doing that to her. Mother, yes, but she wasn't holding the money.

 

Signing away 100K for to her douche ex husband, to a mother scum of the earth, might be why.

 

If it isn't why, then it should be.

[yourmomiseasy]

The kids were completely different this episode.  Since they have consistently been portrayed as assholes in everyone's perspective, I fully bought that they were actually the absolute worst and it wasn't just the unreliable narrator effect.  This episode made me question that since they were good kids in both halves.

 

 

I'm normally in Helen's corner (with the exception of stoned driving with children), but the way she threw the apple core at Trevor made me really dislike her. It's such a demeaning thing to do. I wouldn't throw an apple core at a dog, let alone my own child.

 

 

 

Unless Noah is taking the rap for someone in their family.

 

 

I wouldn't throw an apple core at a dog, either - but I'd throw one at Trevor.

 

Seriously.  Trevor really has been shown to be the worst and is a little Noah.  This episode is the first time he hasn't been annoying.  It still made me laugh how Noah-like he was in saying if the girl had died it would have been a better story.

 

But Noah being acquited does not protect anyone. If he were convicted, the authorities would put it to rest, but if he were found not quilty they could persue the case against someone else.

 

 

This has happened on at least one of the Law & Orders.  You get acquitted for the murder and then when your family member gets tried for the same crime you take the stand and say you did it, casting reasonable doubt, and you cannot be tried again because of double jeopardy and then when your family member gets their not-guilty they can't be tried again either.  I can't remember who actually committed the crime on L&O, but that's how they got off scot-free.  So there's totally already legal precedent for this in TV-land New York.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

How can Helen sell the house if it's owned by the trust?

 

I disagree with Helen about Margaret's motivations.  I don't think Margaret wanted Helen's marriage to fail because Margaret and Bruce's marriage was a sham.  I think Margaret wanted Helen's marriage to fail because Margaret hated Noah and always looked down on him.

 

Truth.

 

And it is far from being a bad thing. Like Alison's mother, she too spotted Noah for what he is. I am sure Noah's done some awful things to Helen in the past but he proved her right recently, so I don't mind her openly hating him and not bothering to hide it. 

 

She is a lot of things, but I haven't seen her be anything but supporting to Helen and the kids since Noah up and left them. If Helen takes his side over her mother's, I am going to wish she ends up with Noah for good. I don't want to be she doesn't deserve that. 

[ScoobieDoobs]

So was the sex-on-a-tree rape?  I didn't get that impression.  Yeah, Noah initiated it & was being kinda rough & forceful.  And Allison was passive.  Man, she was passive.  It's like she wasn't even there or maybe not thinking about Noah.  I figured maybe she was fantasizing it was Junger or one of those buff naked dudes.  But nah, she surely woulda been more into it -- or at least I woulda been.  But she never resisted or gave any indication she didn't want him to do what he was doing.  It was almost like she was playing a plastic sex doll.  But she did go along with it, so is that rape?  It was an icky scene. 

Um, why are the sex scenes on this show so damn unsexy?  Last week it was Cole & Ms. Cum-in-my-face & their awful jack-rabbit sex & this week it was this rape-like scene.  Ew, what gives, show?

[truthaboutluv]

I'm not sure that anyone really thinks Noah raped Alison, or at least I didn't get that impression. I just think some felt it was a bit disturbing especially coming on the heels of Alison clearly expressing that she isn't happy being seen like a sex object and using sex as a release. So the whole thing just felt a little disturbing. 

[Lemons]

Yeah, I think we need more evidence that Helen's been cut off.  I think even with Bruce's wealth, it would be difficult to be liquid enough to have $100,000 in cash.  There's also the fact that they have to funnel the money to Oscar in a way that can't be traced back to Helen. 

 

People with that kind of wealth have access to $100,000 quickly.  It's not millions.  Both of Helen's parents hate Noah so I doubt they would pay the money.  And hopefully Helen isn't the type of entitled person who would say "I hate you" to her mother and then in the next breath ask her for $100,000. 

 

Helen would be the one who would not have access to $100,000 quick enough to help so it will be interesting what happens.

[chocolatine]

Regarding Helen's money issues in the present day, I thought it was very telling that Margaret first said that Bruce would never divorce her because he's too cheap, but then when she was getting into the cab told Helen they were divorcing. I think the divorce will significantly reduce Bruce's wealth, either because he gives Margaret everything she wants so that the divorce is finalized quickly and he can marry his "true love", or because Margaret makes the divorce as ugly and dragged-out as possible, costing Bruce a fortune in lawyer's fees. So there may not be a falling-out between Helen and Bruce; he could just scale back the handouts because he's no longer rich himself.

[JenE4]

I'm not sure that anyone really thinks Noah raped Alison, or at least I didn't get that impression. I just think some felt it was a bit disturbing especially coming on the heels of Alison clearly expressing that she isn't happy being seen like a sex object and using sex as a release. So the whole thing just felt a little disturbing.

I thought it was. Granted she didn't expressly say no in that moment re the sex, but she made it very clear that she had no intention of having sex any time soon, by not having sex she felt this clarity and self-understanding that she's never felt before, and that she was sickened by his making her seem like a sex object in his book. He told her let's leave now, she says no, she's happy with her life in the commune (or yoga retreat or whatever it is) and she doesn't want to go with him, and his response is to turn her around, pull her pants off and start fucking her. I'm not sure why you think that no one would see that as rape. From my perspective it sure as hell was. All of that progress Allison made in those six weeks of learning how to express her emotions and not use sex to escape her emotions and all of her self worth issues of being seen as nothing more than a sex object were completely wiped away in that moment. Doesn't matter what you want or what you feel, Allison, Noah blew up his life for you, so you owe him and he owns you. It was also very telling how the scene ended and they were still just facing away from each other and breathing--no words. No kisses, no "I missed you so much" etc. It was simply Noah erasing all of Allison's work--you're a sex object and your feelings don't matter. She tells him she's pregnant but again, it wasn't a warm moment. It's like you hurt me with the sex, I'm going to hurt you with this child I know you don't want. You take what you want from me, I take what I want (a child) from you.

[Palomar]

He was stunned when she told him that she's pregnant. After that, Noah angrily changed the ending to his book by running over Alison with the car. I felt it was a metaphor about how his feelings towards Alison changed that day and how he killed his feelings for her.

 

And this is even before he finds out (assuming he does) that the baby might be Cole's!

[HumblePi]

People with that kind of wealth have access to $100,000 quickly.  It's not millions.  Both of Helen's parents hate Noah so I doubt they would pay the money.  And hopefully Helen isn't the type of entitled person who would say "I hate you" to her mother and then in the next breath ask her for $100,000. 

 

Helen would be the one who would not have access to $100,000 quick enough to help so it will be interesting what happens.

Any person that owns a Park Slope Brownstone worth approximately $2.5 million could easily get a loan from any bank using that as collateral.

[Lemons]

Any person that owns a Park Slope Brownstone worth approximately $2.5 million could easily get a loan from any bank using that as collateral.

 

They probably could, but not within a day or two.  Her father is probably the only one who could produce $100,000 within 24 hours.  I'm not sure if they said they needed the money right away.  Now that I think of it, Helen and Noah's old friend Max could produce the money quickly too. 

[HumblePi]

So was the sex-on-a-tree rape?  I didn't get that impression.  Yeah, Noah initiated it & was being kinda rough & forceful.  And Allison was passive.  Man, she was passive.  It's like she wasn't even there or maybe not thinking about Noah.  I figured maybe she was fantasizing it was Junger or one of those buff naked dudes.  But nah, she surely woulda been more into it -- or at least I woulda been.  But she never resisted or gave any indication she didn't want him to do what he was doing.  It was almost like she was playing a plastic sex doll.  But she did go along with it, so is that rape?  It was an icky scene. 

Um, why are the sex scenes on this show so damn unsexy?  Last week it was Cole & Ms. Cum-in-my-face & their awful jack-rabbit sex & this week it was this rape-like scene.  Ew, what gives, show?

You got that right when you said the sex scenes, particularly this one is so damned un-sexy. Athena worked through Noah's creative blockage in his root chakra which happens to be in his crotch area. Athena encouraged him to embrace his own darkness, which is the only way he can hear his “true voice.” Then while on his stomach, his face starts to tremble as we saw through the face rest. As this is happening he sees the vision again of Alison on the foggy road, and she's smiling which he sure isn't. Then he goes right to her yoga class and yanks her out of there and insists she leave with him immediately. Alison tells him she can't leave right now. He roughly takes her up the backside against a tree. There was no tenderness, no love, no emotion other than anger. Yes, in my opinion this was rape. To even the score after the backstreet sex, she tells him she's pregnant. It's almost like a retaliation for this mistreatment, by implying without saying 'and it's not yours'.  Yes, Alison believes that she's nothing to Noah other than a sex object, which may or may not be true.

 

I'm editing because the more I think about this sex-tree scene I keep getting a far different understanding of it. It was disturbing because it was difficult to comprehend the reasons Noah had for doing it. But thinking about it again, when Noah met the famous author Sebastian Junger, Noah was stunned to see such a famous writer in this institute and he exclaimed 'this is the last place I'd expect to find you'. Junger remarked that it sounded like Noah is suffering from writers block. After telling Noah that reiki helps him a lot and since Noah is a fanboy of Junger, he seeks Athena to find his Chakra. During the session with Athena, it's pretty obvious that Noah felt his Chakra being released (centered over his crotch of course) and it's this darkness inside of him that he has been afraid of. Noah lets the darkness in, and sought out Alison to release it. Noah needed to release that darkness in him in order to re-write the end of his book in the manner he just couldn't write before.

Edited November 10, 2015 by HumblePi

[ScoobieDoobs]

But is it rape if she gives no indication she doesn't want the sex to happen?  Whether he's forceful or not, she seemed like a willing (if passive) participant in that unsexy sex.  She seemed to know she was being used & yet she did nothing to even attempt to stop it.

[RedheadZombie]

But Noah being acquited does not protect anyone. If he were convicted, the authorities would put it to rest, but if he were found not quilty they could persue the case against someone else.

 

It's not too common that the state tries someone for a murder after someone else has already been acquitted for that murder. It's essentially admitting you tried the wrong person the first time.

[chocolatine]

But is it rape if she gives no indication she doesn't want the sex to happen?  Whether he's forceful or not, she seemed like a willing (if passive) participant in that unsexy sex.  She seemed to know she was being used & yet she did nothing to even attempt to stop it.

 

That's why I struggle with calling it rape as well. While Noah is an asshole in many ways, I think he's the kind of guy that if a woman says no, he respects it (however grudgingly). But I definitely think it was a power move/mind game on his part rather than unbridled lust after being apart; he made Alison's standoffishness all about him and wanted to punish her for it.

Edited November 10, 2015 by chocolatine

[truthaboutluv]

That's why I struggle with calling it rape as well. While Noah is an asshole in many ways, I think he's the kind of guy that if a woman says no, he respects it (however grudgingly). But I definitely think it was a power move/mind game on his part rather than unbridled lust after being apart; he made Alison's standoffishness all about him and wanted to punish her for it.

 

This. To each his own and I absolutely respect those who saw it as rape. But while I certainly agree that the scene was disturbing and uncomfortable, I personally do not believe Noah raped Alison. They were arguing and she was rejecting leaving with him yes, but when he grabs her and kisses her, she responds and they kiss at least twice before he turns her around and they have sex against the tree.

 

I'll admit that Alison doesn't look thrilled during the whole thing but at no point does she say no or stop. And I felt like her unhappiness was more because it went against everything she apparently had been working on for the last few weeks. However, I acknowledge that some may see it differently and sexual assault is a very sensitive and triggering issue for many. 

Edited November 10, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[roomtorome]

Problem I have at this point is that I don't like or care about any of them - Helen may have shown more maturity in this one but overall - a bunch of immature self-absorbed humans from start to finish. 

[Cirien]

I'll just say this: Rape is about power not sex. Many women (myself included) don't  say  no.

I didn't, I went along with it because I was in a strange house and I though I should because it could turn bad. But I never consented to sexual intercourse with him. It was a power move: especially as I was drunk and was "given" to someone

However it's complicated , with Noah and Alison. For me it was borderline rape. As it was all about Noah exerting sexual power over her.  Though, that kiss before hand could seen as consent.

 

....it was hard to watch

[blixie]

 

I think the divorce will significantly reduce Bruce's wealth,

I think Margaret is wealthy independently of Bruce, he mentioned that he married her because she was rich (she can still take him to the cleaners in a divorce, but I don't think this is a case of one parent holding the purse strings, they both have their own wallets). I think the issue is less that her parents have cut Helen off and more that future Helen is attempting to make do w/o their ever present financial assistance, because of what comes with it: interference and judgement. Plus can they 'cut off" an almost 50 year old woman from her trust, I mean once it matures isn't the money hers outright? So she has her trust, she has her home, she has whatever child support Noah kicks in, the first thing I'd do is take those brats out of private school. Hopefully she's found on occupation, if there's one thing that makes her come of like a horrible bitch it's her sneering about professional RN Allison being a *waitress* when she appears to have accomplished exactly zippo professionally, she's a fucking dilletante. 

 

Noah: the man of 1001 scowls. UGH this guy. His banging Allison agains the tree was so gross and typical of him. 

[briochetwist]

 Hopefully she's found on occupation, if there's one thing that makes her come of like a horrible bitch it's her sneering about professional RN Allison being a *waitress* when she appears to have accomplished exactly zippo professionally, she's a fucking dilletante. 

 

 

Allison had an affair with Helen's husband knowing that he was married and had four kids.  Helen's husband left her for Allison.  If sneering that she's just a 'waitress' makes her a terrible person, then I guess I'd be Hitler because I'd have a whole hell of a lot worse things to say if it happened to me.

[blixie]

 

If sneering that she's just a 'waitress' makes her a terrible person,

 

She sneered about her before she knew Noah was fucking her.

[briochetwist]

She sneered about her before she knew Noah was fucking her.

When?  Why would she even be talking about her at all if she didn't know she was cheating with Noah?  To her she is just some waitress.

 

Edited to add:  Was it when Max was looking at Allison and Helen said he could do better?  Eh, whatever, agree to disagree, I don't think Helen is a terrible person at all.

Edited November 10, 2015 by briochetwist

[JenE4]

Allison didn't need to say no in that moment. She had been saying no sex a few times throughout Noah's half of the episode, so she was already very clear that she had no intention on having sex with him and wasn't even sure whether they were a couple. He had been there a few days and they hadn't had sex, so it wasnt a warm, loving I missed my fiancée moment. He pulls her out of yoga and say they need to leave now. She says she's staying there--choosing this new sex-free/ personal growth life over him. He turns her around and rapes her.

[Nanrad]

But is it rape if she gives no indication she doesn't want the sex to happen?  Whether he's forceful or not, she seemed like a willing (if passive) participant in that unsexy sex.  She seemed to know she was being used & yet she did nothing to even attempt to stop it.

Although I'm personally undecided on whether or not it was rape, it's a very complex form of assault. 

 

Alison made it known that she wasn't in the mood to have sex because of her motivations behind it. She's happier and cleaner with the path that she is on. Noah forcibly removes her from her Yoga session, turns her around, pushes her against a tree, and then has sex with her. There isn't much room for her to say anything or react, honestly speaking. Alison thinking that they are going outside to talk, yell, something NOT have sex outside against a tree. It could easily be argued that the situation happened so fast that Alison didn't have enough time to react or that she went along with it because she didn't feel she could tell him no--she's had sex with him numerous other times. 

 

Some people don't stop it due to shock and fear of being hurt. Or try to go along with it because they don't want to believe that someone they care about would force them to have sex. I don't know Alison's mindset during this time, but considering the facts surrounding the encounter, Alison's passiveness, and her fear of men (most of them are menacing in her POV's), she could've went along or didn't fight back as a survival mechanism. That's if she didn't actually want to have sex. Again, I don't know what it was or wasn't, but rape is not a black and white situation. 

Edited November 10, 2015 by Nanrad

[MamaMax]

I'm not sure that anyone really thinks Noah raped Alison, or at least I didn't get that impression. I just think some felt it was a bit disturbing especially coming on the heels of Alison clearly expressing that she isn't happy being seen like a sex object and using sex as a release. So the whole thing just felt a little disturbing. 

 

 

But is it rape if she gives no indication she doesn't want the sex to happen?  Whether he's forceful or not, she seemed like a willing (if passive) participant in that unsexy sex.  She seemed to know she was being used & yet she did nothing to even attempt to stop it.

 

 

It was NOAH'S P.O.V.  I am sure HE thinks he didn't rape her…that she was just passive, but surely didn't resist him….right? I mean, if he LOVES her, it can't be rape, after all, he's not a monster or anything, right?  He just needed her to see thet HE was right, that all her therapy bullshit was getting in the way of what HE, I mean THEY, wanted, right? I mean, he got her the apartment she wanted, so of course she wouldn't continue on with this no sex stuff. All she needed was some reminding of the nature of their relationship: sex. Oh, I mean love. Yeah. That's it. He just wanted to show her how much he loves her. Mmm hmm. 

[Ellaria]

You know, after the last two episodes, I'm beginning to think that's exactly where they're going.  And I'm surprisingly ok with it.  Maybe the bigger message is relationships can ultimately survive infidelity.  The scenes with Cole/Alison last week, and Noah/Helen this week, were very poignant.

 

Yeah, I think we need more evidence that Helen's been cut off.  I think even with Bruce's wealth, it would be difficult to be liquid enough to have $100,000 in cash.  There's also the fact that they have to funnel the money to Oscar in a way that can't be traced back to Helen. 

 

That's an interesting thought...that the two original relationships survive. 

 

Helen is paying Gottlief's bills for Noah's defense. She has access to plenty of money. Assuming the $100,000 is liquid, it would have to be handled in such a way that it doesn't leave a trail. That's not so easily accomplished, regardless of how much money someone has.

 

Noah never fails to be an insensitive asshole. We had a few moments of decency then he slides back into being reprehensible. The "encounter at that tree" was difficult to watch and we saw it from Noah's perspective. Of course, we heard how he blew up his life for Alison. Its always about him and his needs.

 

So, he has the full "vision" of the book's end: running down the woman that he supposedly loves. Then, in anger (?), he completes the story and prepares to deliver it to Harry. How do Alison and Noah go from this less-than-ideal moment to the happy, content couple in the swanky apartment? 

 

Thought it was weird that little Trevor thought that Martin's "girlfriend" should die.

[HumblePi]

How can Helen sell the house if it's owned by the trust?

 

I disagree with Helen about Margaret's motivations.  I don't think Margaret wanted Helen's marriage to fail because Margaret and Bruce's marriage was a sham.  I think Margaret wanted Helen's marriage to fail because Margaret hated Noah and always looked down on him.

The trust fund was in Helen's name so she bought that town house using the money from her own trust fund. The loan-application process for borrowing from a trust is much simpler and faster than applying for a mortgage. The trust isn't the owner, Helen is the owner since she's the trustee. Borrowers need to ensure that the rules of the trust allow for lending or outright distributions. If we are speaking of a revocable, or living, trust on which you are your own trustee, then you should be able to do whatever you wish with the money left in trust.

 

Even if loans are allowed under Helen's trust, she may have just used the money in trust to buy and own the house outright.

Edited November 10, 2015 by HumblePi

[truthaboutluv]

Allison had an affair with Helen's husband knowing that he was married and had four kids.  Helen's husband left her for Allison.  If sneering that she's just a 'waitress' makes her a terrible person, then I guess I'd be Hitler because I'd have a whole hell of a lot worse things to say if it happened to me.

 

Also, to be fair, Helen doesn't know Alison as a nurse and how would she? Alison took a leave of absence from her job after Gabriel's death and was never able to return. So Helen only knows Alison as a waitress. 

[Boundary]

For the first time, I almost loved Helen!  What a revelation.  I was so proud of her when she told off Margaret, but she was really vicious.  She absolutely eviscerated her.  I don't think she should have laid it all on her mother, and the "are you happy now", was a little childish, but I think it was cathartic.  For all we know, she called her mother the next day and apologized. 

 

Perfectly nuanced opinion, I agree completely. I thought Helen was impressive in this episode, if she'd had this insight a few years ago Noah wouldn't have cheated. But like you, I also thought she swung just a touch too far the other way, and made me feel sorry for Margaret. Obviously Marg was unhinged and her own marriage problems made her conflate Bruce with Noah. There's an element that she's always hated Noah (look at how she was cozying up to Max) but at the end of the day Margaret was losing both a daughter and a husband. She deserves it surely but as the daughter, I felt that Helen could've been a little bit gentler.

 

However, Helen's other character growth moment, the divorce and the kids, was easily the best part of the episode. For Noah, Martin's emergency made him recognise what Alison went through. But for Helen it brought out the mothering side, and sidelined the scorned woman. It's also why she went after Margaret so hard, she could've lost a son by listening to her mother. The kids are why she offered Noah the apartment for the weekend and why she finally accepted Alison in the family. I slate her when I think she is in the wrong or partially at fault and I should equally highlight it when I think Helen was stellar in this episode.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Boundary

[nara]

Thought it was weird that little Trevor thought that Martin's "girlfriend" should die.

 

The kids are children and grandchildren of writers.  I think that accounts for their overly dramatic behavior (Martin's fake suicide, Whitney's drama, and Trevor's idea of a romantic relationship with a dying girl).

[briochetwist]

I thought Helen was impressive in this episode, if she'd had this insight a few years ago Noah wouldn't have cheated. 

Sorry, I call bullshit on this.  Noah happily signed on to this lifestyle funded by Helen's parents from the get go.  This was not something that was forced on him.  Maybe he didn't like it, but he never, ever said no.  For years he worked making a shitty salary, but enjoyed the benefits of the house, vacations and the money.  I'm sure he resented the hell out of Helen's parents, but he got himself into this, it's not Helen's fault that he cheated.  That's just weak.

[jrlr]

The kids are children and grandchildren of writers.  I think that accounts for their overly dramatic behavior (Martin's fake suicide, Whitney's drama, and Trevor's idea of a romantic relationship with a dying girl).

LMAO!!  You nailed it.  I am a writer who's the child of a writer, and I know a few others - we are definitely not the easiest people in the world to live with.  First of all, it's a tweaky gene to inherit to start with and second, whether we cop to it or not, we are always in competition with our writer-parent.  Just think about how Bruce treats Noah (I know they aren't father and son, but the situation is close enough)and you'll get a pretty good idea of what it's like.  Having said that, Trevor is a horrible little monster. 

[GeminiDancer]

 

Athena worked through Noah's creative blockage in his root chakra which happens to be in his crotch area. Athena encouraged him to embrace his own darkness, which is the only way he can hear his “true voice.”

 

That was a thing that bugged me a little bit. The creative blockage would be in the sacral chakra (which is the pelvis). The root chakra is about stability, finding your place in the world. It is "I am". The sacral chakra is "I want", which went into overdrive with Noah.

[Ororo Monroe]

I can't watch this show anymore. That scene with Noah and Allison toward the end was really, really unsettling. He raped her. He wanted to assert that he was in charge and he...oh God. That was really disturbing to watch. Well. It's been nice, folks. See you on the flip side.

[cardigirl]

Thanks for this, I'll try to rewatch the episode again tonight. I could have sworn she said she slept with Oscar two weeks ago, because I remember thinking at the time that the show was going to go there and I had been thinking the baby was Oscar's because of her reddish hair. Ha ha! Can't believe I got THAT confused, but it's possible.

Okay, I rewatched and Allison says "two months ago" and even as casual as she seems to be about sex and birth control, I"m guessing she would be wondering if she was pregnant after a couple of months. By the six week return of Noah, she would be. at a minimum, 3.5 to 4 months along if it were Oscar's.

So...only two baby daddies possible. :D

Edited November 10, 2015 by cardigirl

[Lemons]

The trust fund was in Helen's name so she bought that town house using the money from her own trust fund. The loan-application process for borrowing from a trust is much simpler and faster than applying for a mortgage. The trust isn't the owner, Helen is the owner since she's the trustee. Borrowers need to ensure that the rules of the trust allow for lending or outright distributions. If we are speaking of a revocable, or living, trust on which you are your own trustee, then you should be able to do whatever you wish with the money left in trust.

 

Even if loans are allowed under Helen's trust, she may have just used the money in trust to buy and own the house outright.

Did they talk about Helen being trustee on the show? I thought an earlier episode talked about a mortgage on the property. Also, if it's just a real estate trust, does Helen have any real assets besides the home? I think if she had a trust fund with assets besides the house then she wouldn't be talking about selling the family home. Helens parents have been so controlling I bet Helen doesn't have a dime in her own name.

[HumblePi]

Did they talk about Helen being trustee on the show? I thought an earlier episode talked about a mortgage on the property. Also, if it's just a real estate trust, does Helen have any real assets besides the home? I think if she had a trust fund with assets besides the house then she wouldn't be talking about selling the family home. Helens parents have been so controlling I bet Helen doesn't have a dime in her own name.

But.... she does have a wealthy hedge fund manager boyfriend

[Boundary]

Sorry, I call bullshit on this.  Noah happily signed on to this lifestyle funded by Helen's parents from the get go.  This was not something that was forced on him.  Maybe he didn't like it, but he never, ever said no.  For years he worked making a shitty salary, but enjoyed the benefits of the house, vacations and the money.  I'm sure he resented the hell out of Helen's parents, but he got himself into this, it's not Helen's fault that he cheated.  That's just weak.

 

For my part, I see a few layers. Noah actually loved Helen and was married to Helen but Helen also came with Margaret and Bruce. Without that bogus civility, look at what the relationship between Noah and Margaret has descended into. I have no doubt that Helen extricating herself from her parents, especially for Noah's sake, would've helped that marriage greatly. And I also have no doubt that it was Helen, not Noah, who couldn't stand the thought of a cheaper lifestyle. I find discussion about fault to be redundant. It was Noah who cheated, confessed and then left Helen for Alison. I also think the change Helen went through in this episode was profound, I don't think she'd make the same speech about Noah that she did last episode. Who Noah was in the marriage was partially a function of who Helen was. Just from this episode, Noah will become a better divorced father of four (five?) simply due to Helen's own demeanour. It's not about fault or causation, it just is.

[Nanrad]

I agree, biochexwist, he was happy to reap those benefits for like 20 years before he walked away. Not only that, Noah flat out attributes the dissolution of his marriage to falling in love with another. The show tries to sell us on soulmates and how you can't fight it. Margaret may have been an obstacle in their marriage and made their separation worse, but I refuse to put his shit and actions on "if only Helen had this insight sooner."

 

ETA: Boundary, who Noah was in that marriage was as a result of himself. When Helen read Noah to Alison in the stoop scene, she accurately described him. Her parents made their marriage harder, but Noah putting all his shit on her and pretending like she's the bad person because he fell in love with another woman is on him. The reason "fault" is a discussion is because Noah cannot admit to fault at all. Even when he says he fell in love with another woman, it's not his fault. It's not his fault how he left and the people he devastated by his actions. If Noah was actually a a mature individual, he would've called Helen on her shit years ago and fought to have a healthier marriage. But, no, he let it happen, and then walked away because he found his soulmate. 

Edited November 10, 2015 by Nanrad