S05.E06: The Bear And The Bow

[snarkybelle]

Rumpel must think it's an easy gig to be a hero but the next chance he has to make the right decision will forecast his status. Both him and Regina want insta-hero status without really putting in the hard work.  Regina is a big whiny baby when no one believes she could be the next savior. When it comes to making sacrifices, such as Robin getting stabbed and asking Emma to use her dark magic to fix him therefore making her sink further into the darkness, she may not do the right thing.  I thought it was interesting that Camelot was a fake kingdom and Regina was hailed as the savior there.  She was the fake savior.

I think Rumpel said he was another person on the hero side to scare Emma and also he knows that's the winning side.  With as many times as he has come up against the heroes and lost, he should know.  This calls into question why Emma seems so ure of herself.  She must know by now the good guys always win.

Edited November 3, 2015 by snarkybelle

[woolmintons]

I think it's real, but it was obviously recorded long ago (pre-Merlin being treed, IMO) and is thus irrelevent to the situation.

 

 

I think that the message from Merlin was either old or fake as well. Maybe the message if an old one, was supposed to go out to the Apprentice who is now conveniently dead. He would've known exactly what that was about, and when it happened.

 

 

I, too, thought the message was old, but if you look to Merlin's right in his message, you can make out the lights from the "order up"/grill window at Granny's, so it has to be from now.

 

[Delphi]

Well that definitely looks like Nimue error past dark one and not Emma. That's for sure. Unless it's Emma in the shadows still in her white Camelot clothes.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Delphi

[KAOS Agent]

Aren't those candles in the little alcoves of the crypt he's standing in?

[Jul 68]

God, I miss "Vikings". Is it 2016 yet?

Me too!

[Delphi]

Are those not candles in Regina's crypt?

Edited November 3, 2015 by Delphi

[Rumsy4]

Are those not candles in Regina's crypt?

 

Yup. We can see those candles through the haze of the vision/projection. 

[woolmintons]

Aren't those candles in the little alcoves of the crypt he's standing in?

 

 

 

The metal lights behind the blonde woman are the same as the metal lights next to Merlin (I wasn't referring to the candles in the vault, sorry). (This cap from the Hurray! The fairies are free! Party) So he recorded the message while at Granny's ~6 weeks ago, not from before he was turned into a tree.

Edited November 3, 2015 by woolmintons

[Delphi]

But there are candles on the opposite side, in the stone builtins of the crypt.

Eta: I don't doubt that the building is the diner, it looks like the diner, but I'm pretty sure the lights are candles.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Delphi

[KAOS Agent]

It's possible though that they just used Granny's diner to film him giving the message since that's where they were filming that day. We maybe aren't meant to see background stuff.

[Camera One]

This half season, the plot point that I was *least* convinced by was Rumple needing to become an insta-hero to pull the sword out of the stone, and they spend an entire freakin' episode on it. This was the same problem as last year, with a premise I could never buy (an Author being able to write someone a happy ending).  I literally can't get into a story if I can't believe the premise.  I just can't, so I'm left just watching and not engaging.

 

Belle... giving inspirational speeches to people who kidnapped her since "a very long time ago".

 

Within the first five minutes, I was already annoyed with Merida, from "after what your daughter did to me, that's the least you can do" to declaring they can't leave the prison because Arthur took her wisps.  She seriously thought she could have just gotten the Wisps back?  That's about as unrealistic as... shooting away five arrows at the same time while a throng of hostile people bows down to you as Queen.  Belle: "That's just water" while violent men with arrows and swords had them surrounding was just inane.  There's "hope", and then there's outright stupidity.   I couldn't care less about Merida and her quest or her courage, and Belle cheerleading her in the past and cheerleading Rumple in the present-day was a double-dose of repetition.

 

Rumple apologizes to Belle, but what about everyone else?  I wouldn't be surprised if A&E considers Rumple a hero now after this single episode.  And now that Rumple's a hero, he is suuuch a threat.  But wait!  We have five episodes left.  "Find Merlin" didn't work so it's time for "Find Nimue".  We'll be down to "Find Nemo" by the end of November.

 

Why did Rumple make a deal to get Merida her heart back?  They have no memory about what a swell person Merida actually is.  Why wouldn't Rumple make Emma promise not to hurt him or Belle?

 

It's great when Dumb is tricked by Dumber, who didn't stick around to see if that red mushroom burned.  I'm glad Henry is being reasonable about Dark Emma not being Emma.  You know the writing sucks when you fill time by making each side outdumb the other.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

No, you know the writing sucks when it takes 25 seconds for a freaking elevator door to open. When I'm more interested in rewinding to actually see just how long it took for that damn door to open because that's more interesting than what's going on onscreen, there are issues.

[Camera One]

What was the point of Emma remembering about the movie theater encounter.  Merlin provided zero context for why she must stay away from Excalibur, what might happen if she pulled it from the stone, etc.  He has provided ZERO answers.  They have him in their midst and no one asks him a thing to clarify the problem or the situation.  

 

Meanwhile, in the present-day, apparently, Regina told everyone about Dark Emma taking Violet's heart off-camera.  Cue the blank stares.  Hey, at least everyone's standing in their favorite semi-circle formation.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Camera One

[elle]

I, too, thought the message was old, but if you look to Merlin's right in his message, you can make out the lights from the "order up"/grill window at Granny's, so it has to be from now.

 

The "Live in 3 days!" CMA ad should have tipped them off to something being wrong!

[blugirlami21]

I thought it was a really bad episode. Why are we acting like Belle is a useful part of the team all of a sudden? Why was she with Hook, Charming, and Merlin? Anyone else would have made better sense. Regina, Snow, Emma. Anyone else. It took me right out of the scene.

I also wanted to punch her when she compared Emma to Rumple. Rumplestiltskin who has been screwing people over for decades if not longer. The Rumplestiltskin who created this whole situation in the first place? That person? Emma has been the dark one for a couple of months and all she has done is turn a couple of people into trees and take out like two hearts. She didn't even crush them. I love the animated Belle but this version of her is written so poorly. All she cares about is Rumple, who has very little redeeming qualities.

That may be why I also have a hard time with Regina's high horse act about Emma taking Violet's heart. This from the woman who had a vault full of hearts and actually killed someone via heart crushing? And done all while not being the dark one. I know the show likes to forget but I haven't.

Is it possible to put the darkness back in Rumple? He's used to it and he kind of deserves it. I just want this storyline to go away. It's making everyone involved behave like idiots and the mystery about Camelot has already worn thin.

Edited November 3, 2015 by blugirlami21

[Zuleikha]

I've been very into the Camelot storyline, but we're in the part of the season where I feel like the writers' typical flaws are showing. We should be getting payoff for what was set up in the earlier episodes and we're not. We're not being shown any changes from Regina's paying the price and becoming accepted as a leader in Storybrooke again (which was stupid because the premise made no sense and also, Regina was shown as the accepted leader of Storybrooke in 4B). Charming and Snow were disenchanted about as soon as they were enchanted, but poor Guinevere is still in Arthur's spell, so we have no status quo change on either of those fronts. Arthur's shadiness is now exposed, but the only thing he actually did as a shady person was kill a redshirt. 

 

Meanwhile, we have Merlin freed in Camelot and apparently on friendly enough terms with everyone (and in stable enough setting) that he can participate on a jailbreak. But we don't see anyone ask him logical questions, so we not only don't get answers but we don't know why/how Merlin dodged giving answers.

 

So perhaps it's no surprise that in an episode set up to deal with some fundamental questions about Belle/Rumple's relationship, we don't deal with them. Dark One Rumple is a functionally different person than pre-Dark One Rumple. That's what we've always seen, and that's consistent with how Dark Swan vs. Emma is playing out. There are threads of continuity, but in terms of things like basic personality, they're very different. This means Belle has never met the person she's now supposed to love. She has this imagined person she's constructed in her mind, but she doesn't know who the real man behind the beast is. And based on the town line conversation, she probably doesn't like him (which IMHO is consistent with how Belle's been portrayed... she may want Rumple to behave, but she also wants him to be powerful).

 

But rather than deal with that in an honest way, the show just had Belle successfully change Rumple from understandably fearful, non-fighter, non-magic-using person back to Mr. Gold, swaggering around as the baddest good guy around? And now Belle's interested in him? This is supposed to be romantic? (also, we've seen pre-Dark One Rumple be tested in a similar way and choose life over bravery, so the whole premise is faulty... why would Rumple now behave differently than he did with Milah and Hook or Bae and the soldiers?) 

 

Add to that Rumple's original plan of leaving was actually the smartest thing he could do. Neither he nor Belle know anything about what Emma wants except that she wants Rumple to be a hero and pull Excalibur from the throne. So leaving to a place where she was couldn't easily follow was really smart. Both he and Belle would have been safe, and everyone else would have been safer because part of Emma's plan would have been thwarted. But Belle couldn't let him do that because it's not manly enough for her or something.

[scenicbyway]

What was the point of Emma remembering about the movie theater encounter.  Merlin provided zero context for why she must stay away from Excalibur, what might happen if she pulled it from the stone, etc.  He has provided ZERO answers.  They have him in their midst and no one asks him a thing to clarify the problem or the situation.  

 

Meanwhile, in the present-day, apparently, Regina told everyone about Dark Emma taking Violet's heart off-camera.  Cue the blank stares.  Hey, at least everyone's standing in their favorite semi-circle formation.

I'm still not convinced that present day Emma does remember the encounter with Merlin in the movie theatre.  I think its possible that Emma only has memories via the  dreamcatchers.  I also think that something happened to Merlin in Camelot and that's why we don't see him in Storybrooke.  Interesting that Lancelot isn't there either.

[Camera One]

How did Belle know which book to take? While Belle had the book, who was holding the rose?

 

Granny was probably babysitting the Rose.  Or maybe it's in Belle's hardy purse... you know, the one that she used to house Rumple's dagger.

 

LOL when Merida wished Belle good luck with her man at the end of the flashback.  I guess the boat ride was really long so they had time to discuss that, maybe while Belle was cleaning the wound of her head injury.

[Bryce Smith]

juice318, on 01 Nov 2015 - 9:18 PM, said:

I definitely agree. 

Hell, I'd have liked a twist in Belle pulling the sword instead since she is more heroic than Rumple.

 

YaddaYadda, on 01 Nov 2015 - 9:22 PM, said:

Pregnancy agrees with Emilie, and that's really all I kept thinking while Merida was talking.

Emilie de Raven's pregnant?  Really?

[Mathius]

Add to that Rumple's original plan of leaving was actually the smartest thing he could do. Neither he nor Belle know anything about what Emma wants except that she wants Rumple to be a hero and pull Excalibur from the throne. So leaving to a place where she was couldn't easily follow was really smart. Both he and Belle would have been safe, and everyone else would have been safer because part of Emma's plan would have been thwarted.

Um, no, actually Rumple and Belle would NOT have been safe if they left town, they'd have joined Dopey in Treesville. Belle really should've mentioned that.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Mathius

[Serena]

Um, no, actually Rumple and Belle would NOT have been safe if they left town, they'd have joined Dopey in Treesville. Belle really should've mentioned that.

Didn't Rumple have some magic with him that would have prevented the Tree-ing? I of course fast-forwarded through all their scene, but I seem to have caught that. That's what the Magic Powder was originally supposed to do.

[ImogenLeFay]

 Emma has been the dark one for a couple of months and all she has done is turn a couple of people into trees and take out like two hearts.  She didn't even crush them.

 

Do we even know if Emma is the one tree-ing people? I feel like that's been assumed but not actually confirmed, but I might have missed something.

[Mari]

What was the point of Emma remembering about the movie theater encounter. Merlin provided zero context for why she must stay away from Excalibur, what might happen if she pulled it from the stone, etc.

Well, it did highlight the Lost tribute, again. It would be a shame if planning and writing for their current show became more important than inserting something for Lost nostalgia purposes.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Pregnancy agrees with Emilie, and that's really all I kept thinking while Merida was talking.

Emilie de Raven's pregnant?  Really?

Yes, she announced it last month.

 

Confession: i have a soft spot for Brave because a friend of mine was the hair model for Merida.

Wow, congrats to your friend! Epic hair! The best part of the movie, IMO.

Her hair is even more gorgeous in real life! She was visiting a friend at Pixar when someone else walked by and saw her beautiful curly red hair and asked if she would be willing to be a hair model for their current project. She had no idea which movie they were working on at the time. (the hilariously coincidental part is that my friend's brother used to work at Pixar and his job was making sure that the hair for The Incredibles looked realistic)

 

Awesome! The hair is one reason I love that movie because I have hair like that. If that movie had come out when I was a kid, it would have completely changed my self image. I was impressed that they even got it right when it was wet, since curly hair doesn't go limp and straight when it's wet. It just curls differently.

I'm totally jealous because my hair won't hold a curl no matter what I do. My friend has the most beautiful curly red hair that looks like it belongs in a Renaissance painting so whenever I see it, I just want to stare at it and pet it and admire it. It really does have a life of its own so I was impressed by how realistically it was rendered in Brave. I hope you have learned to love and appreciate your lovely curls!

 

Wow. The writers really don't think much of the viewers' intelligence.

Heh, the feeling is mutual.

[Curio]

No, you know the writing sucks when it takes 25 seconds for a freaking elevator door to open. When I'm more interested in rewinding to actually see just how long it took for that damn door to open because that's more interesting than what's going on onscreen, there are issues.

 

Actually, it's closer to 30 seconds if you count from the first bang at the door to the official reveal of Rumple in the elevator. (Obligatory shout out to 4x11 and how it took longer for a freaking door to open than it did to resolve Hook's stolen heart plot.)

 

I've been very into the Camelot storyline, but we're in the part of the season where I feel like the writers' typical flaws are showing. We should be getting payoff for what was set up in the earlier episodes and we're not.

 

That's because we've officially hit the "Middle Episodes Wasteland" where the writers churn out a bunch of useless episodes that do next to nothing to move the big plot forward and spend way too much time on the guest stars. In 4B, some of the middle episodes (Ursula and Cruella's backstories) were actually highlights because that's how bad the 4B main plot arc was—those episodes were fun distractions from the terrible Author/egg baby nonsense. But 5A has one of the most potentially interesting plot arcs of the entire series (exploring Emma as the Dark Swan) and the show doesn't seem to give a damn about exploring Emma's character in depth. The rest of my rant will go into the writers thread.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Curio

[Delphi]

Didn't Rumple have some magic with him that would have prevented the Tree-ing? I of course fast-forwarded through all their scene, but I seem to have caught that. That's what the Magic Powder was originally supposed to do.

Indeed, in the safe he had more of the potion powder that he made in season two that allowed him to leave town and avoid the side affects. It's a different kind of curse this time but if Rumplestiltskin thought it would keep them safe I'm willing to believe it would. He was the most powerful magic user in the realms for about three centuries after all, heprobably knows what he's doing.

I thought it was a really bad episode. Why are we acting like Belle is a useful part of the team all of a sudden? Why was she with Hook, Charming, and Merlin? Anyone else would have made better sense. Regina, Snow, Emma. Anyone else. It took me right out the scene.

Are we suggesting that Belle isn't a useful member of the team? She's the one that constantly does all the research for the team. She was the only one in the group that spends her free time looking over books for arcane knowledge. Emma is trying to not tap into magic, so sending her into a potential battle sounds like a dim idea even for our protagonists. Regina couldn't even figure out how to use her own magic in Storybrooke after the first curse was lifted and only episodes ago needed Emma's help for magic she couldn't reverse. And presumably Snow has little to no magical knowledge and a newborn child to care after, so both her and Charming going seems foolish. Belle seems like the obvious choice in my opinion. Edited November 3, 2015 by Delphi

[blugirlami21]

That's exactly what I'm implying. I don't feel that she brings anything useful to the team other than propping Rumple up. She's also usually the one getting duped by Rumple if the situation calls for it. Ymmv.

I feel like she was only there because the episode was about her. She brought a book and she can read. Those aren't special skills.

Edited November 3, 2015 by blugirlami21

[Delphi]

I guess my question is if anyone can read and do research, why don't they? Since season three it's been Belle doing all the research for the group. I'm of the opinion while, yes, they can read, that's not the same thing as being knowledgeable about things. The others wouldn't know which books to bring or where to look for certain passages. Research isn't solely about picking up a random tome and luckily flipping to the right page.

Belle has been repeatedly shown as the only one actively trying to figure out things, whether it be the time travel spell or the markings on Neal being from the Dark One vault, while everyone else just seems to sit back and wait to react to events. It was only her and Hook doing the research to free everyone from the hat.

[Shanna Marie]

I hope you have learned to love and appreciate your lovely curls!

I finally did when I grew my hair out and it had room to curl instead of just frizzing (my mom thought that the weight of long hair would pull the curl out of it, so she made me keep it short -- very bad advice). I don't have the glorious red, though, just brown with hints of red. However, as the owner of hair like that, it's bugging me that Merida is running around in the woods, fighting, shooting, etc. with it loose like that. It wasn't so bad in the movie because it was a cartoon, but on a real person, all I can think of is what a mess that would really be. The wind would be whipping it around into her face, so she'd get hair in her mouth and in her eyes (and it really hurts when hair manages to get up under your eyelid), and the more it gets blown around, the bigger and wilder it gets. Plus, that kind of hair is like Velcro. She'd have leaves, twigs, random bits of forest debris, and even small animals caught up in it. True story: I once went for a walk in the woods with my hair just in a ponytail instead of braided or in a bun, and that night when I was putting my hair in a bun so it wouldn't kill me in my sleep (because it would, given the chance), I found a tiny inchworm that had nestled in a curl. If I'd spent a few days running around in the woods and sleeping on the ground, and then a few days in a dungeon (unless it provided hair care products), and then did some more running around in the woods, got sweaty, and then did some fighting, all with my hair totally loose, there would be no luscious, bouncy ringlets. I'd look like a terrifying wild creature from the forest. My hair may not stay nicely in a braid, but it would have to at least start that way for me to do the kind of stuff Merida's been doing, or else there would be the standby of the ballerina bun.

 

The more I think about it, the more Belle bugs me in her dealings with Merida. She was so smug and self-righteous about the way she was acting, and who is she to decide when and how Merida has to face her fears, especially when it's Merida's brothers and kingdom at stake? Belle knows nothing about these people. For all she knows, the fact that Merida could turn into a bear might be exactly what would make them decide she was a rightful ruler.

 

That's why I think it would have worked so much better if the whole gang had gone along. Then at least Belle would have had some kind of backup plan instead of "you can singlehandedly fight off all these warriors if you just believe in yourself." The guys could have held off the clans while Merida took on the leaders, and she could have won over the clans by pointing out that she had all these legendary warriors under her command, so why were the clans resisting? That looks even more like her facing her fears about being a good leader if she does it by actually, you know, leading. That's what makes a ruler, not whether or not they always make their shot with a bow, but whether they're able to lead and gain the respect of others.

[CalamityBoPeep]

Yes. Gold was totally channeling his AU!Rumple persona there. He's deluding himself if he thinks one act of bravery qualifies him to be a great hero who can defeat Dark Swan. 

 

Maybe Gold's familiar with this show and these writers. ;-)  In any sane world though, yeah, he'd be deluding himself.

 

 

What was the point of Emma remembering about the movie theater encounter.  Merlin provided zero context for why she must stay away from Excalibur, what might happen if she pulled it from the stone, etc.  He has provided ZERO answers.  They have him in their midst and no one asks him a thing to clarify the problem or the situation.  

 

Meanwhile, in the present-day, apparently, Regina told everyone about Dark Emma taking Violet's heart off-camera.  Cue the blank stares.  Hey, at least everyone's standing in their favorite semi-circle formation.

 

Oh, man, laughed so hard at the semi-circle formation comment!  So freaking true!  They never inhabit a room in any way that appears even slightly normal.

 

I wondered what the point of the freaky usher Merlin visitation was too, if he knew Emma would come free him from the tree, and he'd just repeat exactly what he told her when she was six.  Why bother the little kid, when you know you're going to see the grown up and have the chance to tell her not to pull Excalibur from the stone?

 

Zuleikha said:

 

This means Belle has never met the person she's now supposed to love. She has this imagined person she's constructed in her mind, but she doesn't know who the real man behind the beast is. And based on the town line conversation, she probably doesn't like him (which IMHO is consistent with how Belle's been portrayed... she may want Rumple to behave, but she also wants him to be powerful).

 

 

Totally agree here.... I was thinking of that when he was being all pathetic when he came out of the elevator.  This look crossed Belle's face, that I interpreted as a kind of "oh, my God, he's nothing like I thought he'd be!"  Then she seemed to just shut that response down, to go into her (and the writers') more comfortable denial and earnest pleading.  Their relationship is just such a dysfunctional mess. 

[Curio]

That's why I think it would have worked so much better if the whole gang had gone along. Then at least Belle would have had some kind of backup plan instead of "you can singlehandedly fight off all these warriors if you just believe in yourself." The guys could have held off the clans while Merida took on the leaders, and she could have won over the clans by pointing out that she had all these legendary warriors under her command, so why were the clans resisting? That looks even more like her facing her fears about being a good leader if she does it by actually, you know, leading. That's what makes a ruler, not whether or not they always make their shot with a bow, but whether they're able to lead and gain the respect of others.

 

I would have loved this, and it would also solve the glaring plot hole of the four guys just ignoring Belle and Merida's disappearance for the entire episode. The only bad thing is that this scenario would create a new plot hole: why would Charming, Hook, Lancelot, and Merlin go on a random quest for a couple days when they know time is a crucial thing when it comes to saving Emma from the darkness?

 

Also, why did Merida immediately want Belle's help? Merida mentioned she chose Belle because she seemed to be good at magic, so why not choose Merlin, AKA the most powerful magic practitioner of all time? So basically, Merida only chose Belle as her partner based on that 5-second scene where Belle managed to flip through the book and choose the right spell for Merlin to pull off. That's it. Merida didn't witness anything else besides that one instance, but apparently that's enough to knock Belle out and force her to help Merida save her brothers? Why didn't we get a scene of Merida asking the entire group to help with her brothers? If they turned her down because they had to get back to Emma, then that would have been a better explanation for why Merida waited for the guys to walk ahead in the woods and take Belle instead.

 

Here's another improved scenario: the writers could have switched up the timeline a bit to accommodate for Hook being missing from last week's episode. Hook being away with Belle and Merida could have easily solved the big mystery of why he was absent during Emma's dreamcatcher escapades last week, and would also explain why Emma went further into darkness because she didn't have Hook around for a few days to anchor her. All the writers had to do is not make Merida locked away in the dungeon with Lancelot (because apparently they needed Merlin to free her from those bars) and then she could have knocked out both Belle and Hook to help with her quest. (She'd have to knock out Hook because there's no way he'd purposely ditch Emma to go on a meaningless adventure with someone he barely knows.)

 

Why don't the writers think these things through?

[Mathius]

That's because we've officially hit the "Middle Episodes Wasteland" where the writers churn out a bunch of useless episodes that do next to nothing to move the big plot forward and spend way too much time on the guest stars.

We've had this problem every half-season. In 3A, it was "Nasty Habits" through "Ariel". In 3B, it was "The Tower" through "Bleeding Through". In 4A, it was "Breaking Glass" through "The Snow Queen". In 4B, it was "Enter the a Dragon" through "Sympathy for the De Vil". And now, it looks to be "The Broken Kingdom" through either this episode or "Nimue". It's weird that the writers somehow give these arc both too much plot AND not enough plot at the same time!

Edited November 3, 2015 by Mathius

[regularlyleaded]

The only bad thing is that this scenario would create a new plot hole: why would Charming, Hook, Lancelot, and Merlin go on a random quest for a couple days when they know time is a crucial thing when it comes to saving Emma from the darkness?

[...]

(She'd have to knock out Hook because there's no way he'd purposely ditch Emma to go on a meaningless adventure with someone he barely knows.)

This is exactly why it makes no sense for anyone else to have gone on a random adventure with Merida (and why Belle had to be kidnapped into it).

 

Disclaimer: I fast forwarded through 95% of this episode, so I could be wrong here. Really, really, reaaaally wrong. ;)

 

But with that said, why on earth would anyone in Emma's immediate family or Hook want to go hare off on a random adventure with Merida to an unknown location, for an indeterminate amount of time, to potentially fight an unknown number of foes and all for reasons that have nothing to do with helping Emma, who is still fighting the darkness and was apparently only barely clinging to sanity two episodes back?

 

Hook already balked at having a ball that would delay the get the darkness out of Emma mission. I don't seem him deciding to join a random adventure because of Merida. Now, Charming? Maybe, because you just have to murmur the words "hero" or "glory" and he's sold on whatever it is you're selling.

 

It's bad enough that last episode Emma's family was all, "Emma's in crisis but by all means let's throw a street party! I mean, Emma who?!" To have them now tra-la-la-ing off on a random adventure that has nothing to do with saving Emma sounds twice as bad. At least when Charming went on his Magical Toadstool Tour (and I just realized that episode was the second time a Charming centric has revolved around a magical fungus -- season 3's "The Tower", anyone?) he was doing so partly in hopes to find the toadstool to help them talk to Merlin, who they believed could save Emma from the darkness.

Edited November 3, 2015 by regularlyleaded

[Shanna Marie]

But with that said, why on earth would anyone in Emma's immediate family or Hook want to go hare off on a random adventure with Merida to an unknown location, for an indeterminate amount of time, to potentially fight an unknown number of foes and all for reasons that have nothing to do with helping Emma, who is still fighting the darkness and was apparently only barely clinging to sanity two episodes back?

Easy enough fix for this show. They just need some magical McGuffin that's at Merida's kingdom, but the only way to get it is to defeat the people currently in charge there. So after the jailbreak, the gang gets to Granny's, and Merlin tells them they can save Emma, they just need the <whatever> of <Wherever>. Merida says, "Oh, we've got that, but the clans took over the castle." And so they go take out the bad guys, get the McGuffin, and bring it to Merlin.

 

Why did they even bother with the jailbreak now, other than because they needed Merida for the episode? Yeah, it sucks for Lancelot to be in the dungeon, but it was a pretty big risk for them to storm the castle and break him out now. Was there a particular reason they needed him free? I think that element was missing from the episode. It could have been handled in a line or two of dialogue as they headed off through the woods or in that scene where they realized Belle and Merida were missing and had to make the decision of going after them or getting Lancelot to Granny's, or whatever. It was a cool scene, but it now seems pretty blatantly obvious that the real reason for it was freeing Merida, even while the onscreen reason was freeing Lancelot, although no reason was given for storming the castle to rescue this one guy.

[Zuleikha]

I guess my question is if anyone can read and do research, why don't they? Since season three it's been Belle doing all the research for the group.

Belle has been established as a useful researcher, but useful researcher does not equal most knowledgeable person about magic and best potion master. There was no logical reason to expect that a jailbreak would require magic research, especially with Merlin along (and no explanation of why Regina couldn't go). It was pretty contrived that the bars happened to be enchanted in some way that Merlin didn't understand and that the one book Belle happened to bring with also happened to have a clear explanation for what Merlin needed to do. (we have seen Regina and Hook also do research)

 

She has researched potions in the past, but potion making has always been done by someone with magical powers in the past. Even the de-hatting potion--the one Belle was most directly involved with--required the fairies to make. 

 

I can imagine a Belle-centric that effectively used Belle's research skills by having her learn something about Merlin or Nimue or Camelot or the sands of Avalon or something along those lines, but having Belle suddenly able to be the best potion maker and best cheerleader for Merida, IMHO, was a contrived use of Belle rather than an effective one. (also, IMHO, her advice to Merida was horrible for all the reasons previously stated on the thread. Belle knew nothing about the clans, and no archer--no matter how good--can defeat that many opponents)

[Serena]

Easy enough fix for this show. They just need some magical McGuffin that's at Merida's kingdom, but the only way to get it is to defeat the people currently in charge there. So after the jailbreak, the gang gets to Granny's, and Merlin tells them they can save Emma, they just need the <whatever> of <Wherever>. Merida says, "Oh, we've got that, but the clans took over the castle." And so they go take out the bad guys, get the McGuffin, and bring it to Merlin.

 

Why did they even bother with the jailbreak now, other than because they needed Merida for the episode? Yeah, it sucks for Lancelot to be in the dungeon, but it was a pretty big risk for them to storm the castle and break him out now. Was there a particular reason they needed him free? I think that element was missing from the episode. It could have been handled in a line or two of dialogue as they headed off through the woods or in that scene where they realized Belle and Merida were missing and had to make the decision of going after them or getting Lancelot to Granny's, or whatever. It was a cool scene, but it now seems pretty blatantly obvious that the real reason for it was freeing Merida, even while the onscreen reason was freeing Lancelot, although no reason was given for storming the castle to rescue this one guy.

Exactly, Shanna Marie. As an alternative, Merida steals Important Magic Artifact #34 because she thinks magic can help her save her brothers, and the group has to go after her to get it back. When they catch up with her they're already almost there, and since they're there they can't let three innocent boys die, so they help.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Serena

[Curio]

There was an article that came out a couple months ago where Adam said, "We’ve always wondered what would happen if Belle and Merida went on an adventure together. [...] We hope you do, too, because it’s coming!" So I think that's the simplistic reasoning for this episode—A&E just wanted to write some fanfiction about Belle and Merida. That's it. So they had that idea floating around in their heads, and then they had to twist and manipulate the current plot to fit around their dream pairing instead of letting the story unfold organically. The writers can justify this episode all they want, but there's no way anyone could convince me this random side trip to Not-Scotland was "organic" to the Dark Swan Camelot story that's been going on for five episodes now. 

 

It's obvious in hindsight how much better this episode could have been if more of the core group was involved with Merida's quest like the previous posts describe, but the writers were once again using tunnel vision and only wanted to pair up Belle and Merida because it seemed like "fun" at the time when they were breaking the episode. (I feel like this is why we're always subjected to random Regina and Emma episodes because they like pairing those two together alone, even though it would make a lot more sense for other people to be involved in their adventures.)

Edited November 3, 2015 by Curio

[jaytee1812]

Some of us liked the break from the main group. I sure didn't miss Hook whining over Emma, or Snowing looking pensive and doing nothing.

I like Belle and Merida together, it made a refreshing change.

And I don't wish to suggest that the showrunners and writers know better than posters on an Internet forum, but maybe this will fit in with the bigger plot in the long run.

[Curio]

And I don't wish to suggest that the showrunners and writers know better than posters on an Internet forum, but maybe this will fit in with the bigger plot in the long run.

 

I'm not trying to be snarky here, but how does helping save Merida's three brothers help forward the Dark Swan plot at all?

[kili]

I'm not trying to be snarky here, but how does helping save Merida's three brothers help forward the Dark Swan plot at all?

 

Aren't the triplets supposed to be brats? Maybe they prank Emma and she loses it. Voila. Dark Swan.

[Shanna Marie]

Aren't the triplets supposed to be brats?

They seemed to be in the 3-5 age range in the movie (though it's hard to judge ages in a cartoon), so their behavior in general wasn't too out there for that age range, though they were rather inventive about their mischief. They seem to have grown up rather significantly, considering they now tower over their big sister, so I'd hope they've outgrown the worst of it. Still, if they grew up to be anything like they were as small children, that right there may be the biggest plot hole of the episode. You're telling me those three didn't find a way to escape on their own, drive their captors mad, and take over themselves while Merida was gone? Look at their cleverness and inventiveness as small children. Actually, I think they were my favorite part of the movie, so I'm a little disappointed that they were turned into extras here, with no personalities or even lines.

 

If we really wanted stakes for Merida, how about she's the one who takes Excalibur, thinking it's the trick to winning back her kingdom, only she doesn't know it's broken, and that's why the others have to go after her.

 

I'm not sure what there is about either Belle or Merida that would make someone go "ooh, wouldn't it be cool if they had an adventure together?" I'd never think that about either the TV versions or the movie versions. The only reason I might have teamed up the TV versions is because Belle seems to value bravery, and it's ironic that she's married to a coward. Otherwise, there's nothing about them that seems like a particularly interesting potential clash or mesh.

[Curio]

I'm not sure what there is about either Belle or Merida that would make someone go "ooh, wouldn't it be cool if they had an adventure together?" I'd never think that about either the TV versions or the movie versions. The only reason I might have teamed up the TV versions is because Belle seems to value bravery, and it's ironic that she's married to a coward. Otherwise, there's nothing about them that seems like a particularly interesting potential clash or mesh.

 

I'm still waiting to see Merida, Robin, and Snow geek out over their combined archery skills. That is, if the show remembers that Snow and Robin are actually skilled archers who are allowed to have scenes outside of their love interests.

[Mari]

That is, if the show remembers that Snow and Robin are actually skilled archers who are allowed to have scenes outside of their love interests.

Huh. I didn't think Snow felt that way about Regina, but, well . . .

:)

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Once Upon A Time Lets Merida Grin And Bear It
As Emma's plan inches forward, Merida and Belle's fates intertwine in Storybrooke and Camelot.

[Camera One]

Magic has become all too easy on this show.  Merlin doesn't know the magic to break the spell on the prison bars, but Arthur was able to put them up?  With what magic?  It can't be that hard if Belle could look up the unlocking spell in less than a minute.  Isn't that one of Merlin's books, or did she bring her own stash to Camelot?

 

Between the two of them, couldn't Rumple with his deep knowledge of magic and a billion and one magical objects, and Belle, with her apparently spell-making powers (look at how she whipped up that "change the fate" potion at the Witch's house), have created some illusion and/or spell to at least hide from Merida?

 

I love the takeaway message from this episode.  If you want to believe in yourself, put yourself into a life-threatening situation with a 0.0000005% survival rate.

[dr pepper]

Please. Stop. Using. "Fire". In. Connection. With. Archery!

[dr pepper]

 

• All green - good catch!
• If it hadn't been for Robert Carlyle, I couldn't have watched the episode at all. Too many characters, and the plot was the theatrical equivalent of 52 Pickup!
• I had to look up Nimue... unfortunately, now I have "The Lion Sleeps Tonight" in my head with "Nimue" instead of "Wimoweh" - arrrrgghh!

 

 

Of course, in the story, Nimue is the sweet young thing who seduced a silly old man who should have known better. But that silly old man was Merlin and she was after his knowledge. Once she had it, she trapped him, either in a tree or a cave, depending on the version. In fact one of the knights looking for the Holy Grail passes by Merlin and tries to frre him. But he can't so oh well, on with the quest. But since this Merlin is not old, and in no need of pretended attention from women, i'm guessing the show's nimue will have no relation at all to the story.

[tennisgurl]

I finally got home from a conference, and got a chance to see the episode, and...booooooooooring.

 

Like, dear God. Two boring episodes in a row. How the hell does that even happen? 

 

I feel like everyone has already covered pretty much everything I was going to say, so one more thought.

 

This show needs to stop using the words "hero" and "villain". They keep using those words, but I do not think they mean what they think they mean. One act of (semi) bravery does not make you a hero. Its like back in season two where Regina decided at the last minute to save the town from exploding (just because she wanted to save herself and Henry, but thats a rant for another day), and she was suddenly a Hero. What does that even mean? And Dark Swan rips out Violets heart, and now she is a Villain? Villain and Hero are not just buttons you can stick on people after they did something good or bad. Its not like getting a sticker in kindergarten for sharing a cookie. Being a hero or a villain (if you happen to be a genre that uses those labels) means you have to act in a consistently heroic or villainous manner. Now, you can have heroic characters who have bad traits, or even do bad things, or villains who have good traits or sometimes do good things, but that all comes down to consistency. Just doing one good thing does not a true hero make. Its a step in the right direction, but its only a step. You cant proclaim yourself the second coming of Superman after you throw one stone at one bear. Its not about the TITLE of Hero or Villain, its about their ACTIONS! 

 

I am, however, kind of interested in where they go with this. Is Rumple a real hero? Or is he being set up for a fall. If it turns out this is all some long con by Dark Swan to get Rumple to think of himself as a hero, only for her to let him fall aprt, that would be quite interesting. 

[Curio]

Like, dear God. Two boring episodes in a row. How the hell does that even happen? 

 

It could be worse. Nearly all of 4B was one terrible or boring episode after another.

[dr pepper]

Maybe someone who saw Brave knows - Why is Merida the Queen after her father dies? Shouldn't the oldest of the brothers be King? If the boys are under age - well then great! Annoint him King and the clans men can apoint themselves regents and do the actual ruling.

 

 

It's been pretty much demonstrated that the despite the archaisms of the realms, they are way less sexist than the historical periods they emulate.