Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Mellowyellow]

4 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

 

The problem IMO with angry sex is that once it's over, nothing has been solved and usually one of the participants just gets up, gets dressed and says nothing has changed.  

They can ship stall for the entire s6 with random bouts of angry sex.  No resolution required until end of s6.

There I'm such an understanding, patient shipper!

[LeighAn]

On television often though usually angry sex leads to non angry sex which then leads to characters discussing the status of their relationship which eventually down the line leads into the are we getting back together or not conversation. 

For instance Chuck and Blair on Gossip Girl or Meredith and Derek in Greys Anatomy Piper and Alex in Orange is the new black.

So I could see how it could facilitate a Oliver and Felicity reunion but to be honest other then Isobel Arrow has never had a sex scene that hasnt been romantic culmination sex.

[statsgirl]

Maybe not angry sex but I think Felicity has a right to be angry at Oliver.  On the other hand, she had even more right to be angry at him in 3x12 and that completely fizzled out.

[AyChihuahua]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

The problem IMO with angry sex is that once it's over, nothing has been solved and usually one of the participants just gets up, gets dressed and says nothing has changed.  

I was trying to be very mildly positive.

[wonderwall]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

Maybe not angry sex but I think Felicity has a right to be angry at Oliver.  On the other hand, she had even more right to be angry at him in 3x12 and that completely fizzled out.

Wait... I feel like I'm missing something. Why would Felicity be mad at Oliver now? 

• It's been a year since baby mama and Felicity isn't the kind of woman to hold onto her anger for that long
• She doesn't blame Oliver for Billy - she blames Prometheus so she wouldn't be mad at him for this
• She isn't the kind of woman to be angry at someone for not comforting her. She's more the kind of person to tell people to live their lives and not worry about her. 
• She's definitely not the person to feel angry at Oliver for sleeping with a woman who she thinks he's dating regardless of the circumstance - which how would she even know about what he did? Also, it was made clear from the actor and EP that it didn't happen. If they say it didn't happen then why push that it did?

I feel like it would be completely out of character for Felicity to be angry at Oliver in this instance. 

Edited January 13, 2017 by wonderwall

[BkWurm1]

7 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

I was trying to be very mildly positive.

Sorry.  I guess I'm just being greedy.  Not like if I got a bout of angry Olicity sex I'd really be complaining.  I just want it all and not just angry sex, but let's be honest.  I'd take even an off screen mention of Felicity and Oliver going together and picking up burgers at Big Belly together as a positive sign.  

Just now, wonderwall said:

Wait... I feel like I'm missing something. Why would Felicity be mad at Oliver now? 

• It's been a year since baby mama and Felicity isn't the kind of woman to hold onto her anger for that long
• She doesn't blame Oliver for Billy - she blames Prometheus so she wouldn't be mad at him for this
• She isn't the kind of woman to be angry at someone for not comforting her. She's more the kind of person to tell people to live their lives and not worry about her. 
• She's definitely not the person to feel angry at Oliver for sleeping with a woman who she thinks he's dating regardless of the circumstance - even though it was made clear from the actor and EP that it didn't happen. If they say it didn't happen then why push that it did? Love yourselves.

I feel like it would be completely out of character for Felicity to be angry at Oliver in this instance. 

If she's going behind his back to handle Prometheus because she doesn't think he's doing enough she might be annoyed.  

[wonderwall]

34 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

If she's going behind his back to handle Prometheus because she doesn't think he's doing enough she might be annoyed.  

I really hope this isn't the case. Because Felicity should know more than anyone that working with your team achieves a lot more than going off on your own. I say this because Felicity has told Oliver the same thing over and over again.

Edited January 13, 2017 by wonderwall

[BkWurm1]

6 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

I really hope this isn't the case. Because Felicity should know more than anyone that working with your team achieves a lot more than going off on your own. I say this because Felicity has told Oliver the same thing over and over again.

You know it and I know it and they SHOULD know it but given how they've been writing the show this year...

[statsgirl]

Felicity may not be the kind of person to hold on to grudges but there has been so much unresolved between her and Oliver, things just swept under the rug.

• When Oliver left to fight Ra's, he told her he loved her. She went through the mourning when she thought he had died, and the hope when she realized he was still alive.  Then, after Felicity said he would never work with Malcom Merlyn, Oliver came back and said he was working with Malcolm, end of discussion.
• She never got to process his rejection of her which caused her to go to sleep with Ray
• Did they ever talk about the fact that he wasn't there for her when she was paralyzed and in the hospital?
• With the BMD, Felicity quietly told him she couldn't be with him any more.  Then after he manipulated her with the fake wedding, she quietly told him she couldn't work with him any more. I don't know anyone who wouldn't have been internally yelling and screaming then.
• Oliver didn't even give Felicity a chance to state her objections to breaking Diggle out of prison.  By now, she's earned the right to be heard even if it was Lyla's plan.
• She isn't the kind of person to blame someone for not comforting her but it's still got to hurt, especially with her background of abandonment.
• If Susan does betray them, then Felicity would be right to be angry with him for putting them all at risk with his bad choices.

Felicity may have gone past all those at the time, but it's hard to believe that there isn't some sense of resentment carried over from all those times that she should have a chance to let out.

Or maybe I'm just so tired of all the times Oliver manipulates Felicity and is stupid that I want her to yell at him, the way Diggle gets to do when Oliver pulls that stuff with him, to make me feel better.

[BkWurm1]

2 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

to make me feel better.

Ding, ding, ding!  I don't care if they have to bring in the Waverider to grab Felicity in the moment before she's once again forgiven him but yeah, just to make me feel better I'd enjoy her yelling (justifiably- it's no fun otherwise) at Oliver.  Actually, I don't even need real Felicity.  How about Oliver just gets hit on the head and dreams that she yells at him over all the things that he still feels guilty over.  Problem solved!

[bijoux]

Quote

Tinalicity

What about Tinacity? It sounds like tenacity.

[lemotomato]

54 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Felicity may not be the kind of person to hold on to grudges but there has been so much unresolved between her and Oliver, things just swept under the rug.

• When Oliver left to fight Ra's, he told her he loved her. She went through the mourning when she thought he had died, and the hope when she realized he was still alive.  Then, after Felicity said he would never work with Malcom Merlyn, Oliver came back and said he was working with Malcolm, end of discussion.
• She never got to process his rejection of her which caused her to go to sleep with Ray
• Did they ever talk about the fact that he wasn't there for her when she was paralyzed and in the hospital?
• With the BMD, Felicity quietly told him she couldn't be with him any more.  Then after he manipulated her with the fake wedding, she quietly told him she couldn't work with him any more. I don't know anyone who wouldn't have been internally yelling and screaming then.
• Oliver didn't even give Felicity a chance to state her objections to breaking Diggle out of prison.  By now, she's earned the right to be heard even if it was Lyla's plan.
• She isn't the kind of person to blame someone for not comforting her but it's still got to hurt, especially with her background of abandonment.
• If Susan does betray them, then Felicity would be right to be angry with him for putting them all at risk with his bad choices.

Felicity may have gone past all those at the time, but it's hard to believe that there isn't some sense of resentment carried over from all those times that she should have a chance to let out.

Or maybe I'm just so tired of all the times Oliver manipulates Felicity and is stupid that I want her to yell at him, the way Diggle gets to do when Oliver pulls that stuff with him, to make me feel better.

For your first two points, Felicity chose to stay with the team and she chose to date Ray. Saying that she only did those things just because of how Oliver treated her takes away her agency. And yes, they talked about how he wasn't there for her at the hospital. He apologized profusely, twice, in that very same episode. And for other points, if she didn't yell at him when that stuff happened, why on earth would she yell at him months later?  

I don't know what's the point of projecting our feelings about plot points onto the characters and expecting them to react the way we would, especially if it's contrary to how we've seen them react before. It's kind of setting ourselves up for disappointment, isn't it?

Edited January 13, 2017 by lemotomato

[wonderwall]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

Felicity may not be the kind of person to hold on to grudges but there has been so much unresolved between her and Oliver, things just swept under the rug.

• When Oliver left to fight Ra's, he told her he loved her. She went through the mourning when she thought he had died, and the hope when she realized he was still alive.  Then, after Felicity said he would never work with Malcom Merlyn, Oliver came back and said he was working with Malcolm, end of discussion.
• She never got to process his rejection of her which caused her to go to sleep with Ray
• Did they ever talk about the fact that he wasn't there for her when she was paralyzed and in the hospital?
• With the BMD, Felicity quietly told him she couldn't be with him any more.  Then after he manipulated her with the fake wedding, she quietly told him she couldn't work with him any more. I don't know anyone who wouldn't have been internally yelling and screaming then.
• Oliver didn't even give Felicity a chance to state her objections to breaking Diggle out of prison.  By now, she's earned the right to be heard even if it was Lyla's plan.
• She isn't the kind of person to blame someone for not comforting her but it's still got to hurt, especially with her background of abandonment.
• If Susan does betray them, then Felicity would be right to be angry with him for putting them all at risk with his bad choices.

Felicity may have gone past all those at the time, but it's hard to believe that there isn't some sense of resentment carried over from all those times that she should have a chance to let out.

Or maybe I'm just so tired of all the times Oliver manipulates Felicity and is stupid that I want her to yell at him, the way Diggle gets to do when Oliver pulls that stuff with him, to make me feel better.

• I guess you missed the whole "I don't want to be a woman you love" speech where Felicity hands Oliver's ass to him and tells him just how moronic him teaming up with Malcolm is? 
• What was there to process? Oliver rejects Felicity in 301, Sara then dies. Oliver retreats back into his hole and Felicity decides she doesn't want to wait for Oliver to die so she chooses life. 302 is actually an episode where we see Felicity walk away from Oliver and put a wall up between them. Oliver rejected Felicity in 301 - Felicity sleeps with Ray in 315... So really, Ray has nothing to do with this.
• They did. Felicity tells Oliver that maybe the reason why he didn't come to her was because she was now damaged goods. He then apologized profusely and his self hatred for not being there for her was evident because he literally said he could never forgive himself for what he did. And tbh I don't think there was much more to discuss. This episode showed Felicity's deep understanding of Oliver when she immediately knew what Oliver was up to. She likely knew why he wasn't around. Not to mention - Oliver made it up to her in spades in the next episode by being extremely attentive and caring and sweet
• I'll give you the BMD one - that was extremely frustrating
• Oliver knew where Felicity stood in terms of breaking Diggle out of prison because she explicitly stated she was against the idea? In any case - this was more LYLA'S plan than Oliver's and she doesn't owe Felicity anything. She just wanted her husband out of jail. Felicity chose her position. If she told them she's open to helping them I'm sure they would've told her the plan but she didn't
• It would hurt but she wouldn't be angry about it. But maybe - just maybe - she didn't want to be comforted by the man that killed her boyfriend in that moment? Even though she doesn't blame Oliver, it wouldn't make sense that she'd want to seek comfort from him.
• If Susan betrays anyone it would be Oliver - not the team. She's looking into HIS past into the Bratva, not Felicity's or anyone else's. So if anyone would get hurt, it's Oliver and no one else. And why would Felicity be angry at Oliver if Susan betrays him? She'd likely be more angry at Susan.
• "All the times Oliver manipulated Felicity"... Other than the fake wedding, when?  Stephen at the con stated that him and Emily both believe that in 223, Felicity was in on the secret so that can't be it...

Basically all I'm getting from this conversation is that you want Felicity to act OOC and to be honest I don't understand that? But maybe we should agree to disagree.

Edited January 13, 2017 by wonderwall

[sadfangirl]

What I want is Oliver to be angry at Felicity for going behind his back, and she'll throw it back at him for all the times he's done it to her, and to Diggle.

That would then allow the fight that they need to have to clear the air. Felicity has bottled all of it up - so does Oliver, and it needs to explode. 

[wonderwall]

1 minute ago, sadfangirl said:

What I want is Oliver to be angry at Felicity for going behind his back, and she'll throw it back at him for all the times he's done it to her, and to Diggle.

That would then allow the fight that they need to have to clear the air. Felicity has bottled all of it up - so does Oliver, and it needs to explode. 

This I can get behind. I just can't see Felicity bringing it up without her being forced to bring it up though. 

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, wonderwall said:

They did. Felicity tells Oliver that maybe the reason why he didn't come to her was because she was now damaged goods. He then apologized profusely and his self hatred for not being there for her was evident because he literally said he could never forgive himself for what he did. And tbh I don't think there was much more to discuss. This episode showed Felicity's deep understanding of Oliver when she immediately knew what Oliver was up to. She likely knew why he wasn't around. Not to mention - Oliver made it up to her in spades in the next episode by being extremely attentive and caring and sweet

The fact that Felicity understood Oliver and why he wasn't around doesn't eliminate the hurt and fear she must have felt as she was lying there. In all of those situations Felicity got past whatever happened at the time but that doesn't mean that all her feelings about the situations would be all gone.  She'd have to be an AI and have the feelings erased for there to be nothing of her hurt left even though she may feel she's over it.

The fact that Oliver made it up to her in the next two episodes only to hurt her even worse in 415 and 416 doesn't make it any better, in fact it makes it worse.  The pattern of hurting the other followed by extreme caring only to hurt the other person again is very specific kind of behaviour in a person that I really hope he isn't.

1 hour ago, lemotomato said:

For your first two points, Felicity chose to stay with the team and she chose to date Ray. Saying that she only did those things just because of how Oliver treated her takes away her agency. And yes, they talked about how he wasn't there for her at the hospital. He apologized profusely, twice, in that very same episode. And for other points, if she didn't yell at him when that stuff happened, why on earth would she yell at him months later? 

Felicity went to Ray because Ray listened to her when Oliver shut her out.  Yes, she had the agency to go to Ray but she did it because Oliver, her first choice, shut her out.  She chose to stay with the Team but can she really forget that he chose to work with Malcolm Merlyn and didn't even explain himself when she objected, or fake killed her in Nanda Parbat?  Can those feelings really just disappear because he explained he thought those were his best options?

I want her to yell at him, like Diggle yells at him, because real people don't just forget about all the hurts of the past and wipe them clean so he can do it all over again next time.  Forgiving him and erasing it all each time he hurt her so that there is no trace left is too much like the perfect girl friend the grade 9 boys in my health class fantasized about rather than all the things I admire Felicity for.  And also because if she keeps erasing the past whenever he explains why he's done what he does, he's going to keep doing it again.

ETA:  I don't think it's OOC character for Felicity to hold resentment against someone close to her who has hurt her emotionally.  She's held resentment against both of her parents.

Edited January 13, 2017 by statsgirl

[wonderwall]

16 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

The fact that Felicity understood Oliver and why he wasn't around doesn't eliminate the hurt and fear she must have felt as she was lying there. In all of those situations Felicity got past whatever happened at the time but that doesn't mean that all her feelings about the situations would be all gone.  She'd have to be an AI and have the feelings erased for there to be nothing of her hurt left even though she may feel she's over it.

Other than to make you feel better is there actually a reason why Felicity should rehash the past and move backwards in terms of her dealing with things that have already happened? Because I honestly don't understand what the point of this would be other than getting the satisfaction of Oliver being yelled at and nothing character driven at all. Felicity has moved past everything you mentioned. Let her be past it. 

19 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

The fact that Oliver made it up to her in the next two episodes only to hurt her even worse in 415 and 416 doesn't make it any better, in fact it makes it worse.  The pattern of hurting the other followed by extreme caring only to hurt the other person again is very specific kind of behaviour in a person that I really hope he isn't.

What? Oliver making him not going to visit her in the hospital has nothing to do with him hurting her in 415 nor did I ever mention that. Idk where you got that from. Him making it up to her resolves the whole hospital thing. The BMD is something else entirely. 

If Oliver hurt people intentionally then it would make the pattern be more malicious. But he doesn't. I think Oliver is an emotionally weak man which is what the island and his PTSD did to him. It's extremely frustrating when we see him make terrible decisions whilst emotional. This is also why I think we see him fuck up more than anyone else. Is this an excuse? No. I think when Oliver screws up, he should own up to it. But it makes sense to me why he messes up more often.

Sorry if that last paragraph didn't make sense... 

[Midnight Lullaby]

Well since this season they made her act chipper for months then said she will go dark as a result of a lot of things, some that happened quite a while ago then I don't see why they can't do the same thing and say Felicity has some things she has never dealt with that can make her (if questioned by Oliver about going after Prometheus on her own) snap. We didn't see Felicity deal with anything and I think it will keep going this way because that's this show but it's not so crazy to think that things you have never really dealt with can catch up with you in moments of stress.

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, wonderwall said:

 

Other than to make you feel better is there actually a reason why Felicity should rehash the past and move backwards in terms of her dealing with things that have already happened? Because I honestly don't understand what the point of this would be other than getting the satisfaction of Oliver being yelled at and

 

Some of the things I think could be perceived as never really having been addressed enough.  Like the issue with Diggle was very rushed past.  They were keeping her out of the loop before she knew and then when she was told, she got like ten seconds to process and express an initial opinion before she was pretty much again kept out of the loop.  I understand that the rush had a lot to do with the time constraints of the episode but if you take that out of it, yeah, it's kind of messed up that they didn't even try to talk it through and I'm talking Oliver or Lyla.  

And I do think that that Felicity had enough history with Lyla as both a friend and colleague at that point to deserve that conversation.  Any conversation.  I mean, Lyla wanted Oliver's help so that put a huge part of Felicity's team at risk.  It was IMO extremely foolish for either of them not to make use of Felicity's abilities.  They never even gave her a chance to understand the risks they were taking if she didn't help.  She didn't even refuse, they just decided for her.  

    

There are other issues that were never really resolved, like the Malcolm one , just the initial blow up and then Felicity being upset and Oliver taking it to another level by ONLY confiding his LoA plan to Malcolm.  She pretty much let him off the hook when it kind of sort of seemed that maybe he'd learned his lesson but I think a good argument could be made that maybe if they'd talked more about his instinct to go it alone and make those decisions unilaterally, that maybe he wouldn't have kept William from her, because then he'd have known that that was just the kind of thing that would break them up.  

I don't think that Felicity has to really be angry about any one thing, but there is a lot that she and Oliver still need to talk about.  Even just the fact that they currently are not talking like they used to do (and I'm talking about season 1 and 2, not even 3 or 4) should be worthy of a conversation and it's one that I think I'd find cathartic to hear.   

Edited January 13, 2017 by BkWurm1

[GirlvsTV]

I'd just be concerned any big confrontation would be ultimately be about Felicity becoming more understanding of Oliver's past horrible choices, instead of it going both ways. If Oliver dares take Felicity to task for going off on her own to get sh*t done and SHE is the one on the losing end of their 'hallway' scene (like LL was) I will Hulk rage. Any outcome that leaves Oliver as the one needing to learn something would run the risk of making it look like he was at fault - and I don't think the writers would allow that to happen.

I'd really love a scene where Felicity finally gets to express her own emotions/thoughts/feelings, but I'd also she rather do it right before she peaced out on all of them and left to be awesome somewhere else forever.

Edited January 13, 2017 by GirlvsTV

[Trisha]

1 hour ago, GirlvsTV said:

I'd just be concerned any big confrontation would be ultimately be about Felicity becoming more understanding of Oliver's past horrible choices, instead of it going both ways. If Oliver dares take Felicity to task for going off on her own to get sh*t done and SHE is the one on the losing end of their 'hallway' scene (like LL was) I will Hulk rage. Any outcome that leaves Oliver as the one needing to learn something would run the risk of making it look like he was fault - and I don't think the writers would allow that to happen.

This is why I hated the hallway scene. I was no fan of Laurel by that point at all, but she should have "won" that scene. Oliver had no business being at that family dinner and even less business judging her. That was the first time I began to suspect the writers didn't like LL. I can't imagine them doing Felicity dirty like that, but these days who knows?

[Velocity23]

I am sorry but why would Felicity peace out? 

[GirlvsTV]

It's just wishful thinking on my part. She's been through a lot and never seems to get much support from her team/friends even though she's always there for them when they need her - Oliver in particular. I'd find it cathartic for her to let it all out on them before forging her own separate path - maybe finally giving Smoak Technology a go and helping people the way she said wanted to in 4b.

[lemotomato]

She already did that last season, after the fake wedding.

[tv echo]

Since the EPs often use the comics for story inspiration, I took another look at the DC comics' version of Prometheus. Like everything else in comics, there seems to be several versions of this character.  However, I found the following description of "Imposter Prometheus" interesting because it mentions Green Arrow, Talia al Ghul, the Birds of Prey, and a villain group called the Secret Society of Super Villains*.  Then there's the Prometheus version in the Rise & Fall series which mentions Prometheus' "specialty" and the conflict between GA and his then ladylove BC (see below).  So I'm wondering if the Arrow EPs adapted any of these comics elements in developing their Prometheus storyline for Arrow this season (perhaps using different characters). I'm also wondering if they're now evolving Oliver from hero to hunter...

(* The Secret Society of Super Villains was the enemy of the Justice League of America. This season in the Arrowverse, there's a villain group called the Legion of Doom, and the Justice Society of America already made an appearance.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus_(DC_Comics)#Arrowverse

Quote

The third Prometheus, Chad Graham, debuted in Batman: Gotham Knights #52 (June 2004), being part of the "Pushback" storyline from issues #50–55 (April–Sept. 2004). The villain reappeared in Batman: Gotham Knights #66 (Aug. 2005); Villains United #1–6 (July–Sept. 2005); Infinite Crisis #1–7 (Dec. 2005 – June 2006); Birds of Prey #94 (June–Aug. 2006); Teen Titans vol. 3, #51–54 (Nov. 2007 – Feb. 2008) and Final Crisis #1–7 (July 2008 – March 2009) before being killed in Faces of Evil: Prometheus #1 (March 2009). He was not established as being a different character from the second Prometheus until that same issue. After Prometheus went into a mentally disabled state, an impostor took his mantle. Chad Graham had been taken in by Prometheus to serve as his evil sidekick years earlier, but Graham proved too impulsive and ended up (under unknown circumstances) leaving Prometheus, only to return years later to assume the identity once the original went missing following his second battle with the Justice League. The villain appears in Star City, battling hero Green Arrow and local law enforcement. Almost killed by Green Arrow, Graham is saved by Hush. Hush forms an alliance with the impostor but abandons him due to his apparent incompetence.[15] Talia al Ghul leads the evil Cobra Cult in search of Prometheus in a bid to secure his Ghost Key. Graham, poisoned by one of the creations of villainess Poison Ivy, is saved once again by Hush.[16] Graham is then recruited to join another version (numbering in the hundreds) of the Secret Society of Super Villains[17] as Prometheus and participates in a massive attack by the Society on the city of Metropolis. During the battle Graham kills the hero Peacemaker.[18] Graham also has an encounter with the superheroine group Birds of Prey, and defeats the mercenary Lady Shiva in seconds.[19] The villain eventually falls under the control of the alien Starro, and is used as a foot soldier, but is defeated by an alternate future version of Robin and freed once Starro is defeated.[20] Graham is later murdered when the real Prometheus regains his mind and kills him, expressing contempt for Graham's impersonation but still satisfied that the damage Graham had done to Prometheus' reputation would lead to the heroes underestimating the villain in the future. The third Prometheus relies on the use of two pistols, although he also possesses his mentor's helmet and artificial skills, giving him the training to defeat even Lady Shiva in a matter of seconds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Arrow#Cry_for_Justice_.26_Rise_and_Fall

Quote

In the Cry for Justice miniseries, JLA foe Prometheus destroys Star City, as part of a grand scheme to "hurt" the Justice League community of heroes. After tricking the Justice League into releasing him, Green Arrow tracks him down to his hidden lair and kills him with a single arrow right between the eyes.[20]

This murder, committed in secret, is what Oliver considers justice for the bombings (which also cost the life of Lian Harper, Roy Harper's (Red Arrow) daughter, who was killed in the bombing of Star City) and this immediately leads into the Rise and Fall storyline, in which Oliver obsessively hunts other super-villains allied with Prometheus during the recent events,[21] including Prometheus's former allies who were involved in the bombing. When his JLA comrades learn of this plot, they confront Green Arrow and he realizes he has crossed a line and turns himself in: Black Canary returns her wedding ring and declares their marriage over. The Green Arrow/Black Canary series ends during this story arc, as well as in the pages of Justice League: Rise and Fall Special; Oliver is tried, but found not guilty as most of the jury sympathise with his motives. He is exiled from Star City's remains as a result, choosing to live in the mysterious forest which has grown at its centre.[22]

GREEN ARROW’S REASON FOR KILLING PROMETHEUS
March 27, 2015 by chan
https://comicnewbies.com/2015/03/27/green-arrows-reason-for-killing-prometheus/

Justice League - the Rise and Fall Special #1 - DC
Sunday, March 14, 2010
http://comicinsight.blogspot.com/2010/03/justice-league-rise-and-fall-special-1.html

Quote

This issue picks up directly after Cry For Justice #7. In it Star City has been destroyed. With thousand's of lives being lost. That alone is enough to drive Ollie over the edge. But . . in the process of all of this . . Prometheus permanently maimed Ollie's son, Roy by removing his arm. And, in the wreckage of the city, Lian was also lost . . crushed under the falling buildings. Losing his grand-daughter like that was just too much for him to take. So, at the end of Cry For Justice, he took it upon himself to go to Prometheus' hideout, and . . shoot him in the head. However, nobody else knows that yet . . except for Ollie. So he goes back to the real world and begins looking for the second guy responsible for all this carnage, the Electrocutioner. He's the one that put Prometheus' device in place and activated it. So in Ollie's eyes, he's every bit as responsible for what happened as Prometheus. I like the line Ollie uses when he's talking about Prometheus. 'Prometheus' specialty had always been an uncanny knowledge of his opponents . . he studied our abilities, skills and tendencies. He took into account my proficiency with the bow. He was well aware of my hand-to-hand combat training. But Prometheus never grasped that vital piece of information. He never knew that at my core, I wasn't a hero. I was a hunter.' And that line right there really summed it up, for me, as to just how cold Ollie had become. Anyways, he finds the Electrocutioner, but then loses him because he and Dinah have a fight over motives and means. And that's when Hal and Barry return from Prometheus' hideout with his body. Shade ended up taking them there when they asked him to help them find Prometheus. But the interesting thing is, Shade says that they are the second people that he's brought there. Is he talking about Ollie? Or someone else? And, since Ollie left him there, it appears that someone has taken off with Prometheus' helmet. That was the source of all of his knowledge. With it, someone else may be preparing to attack the JLA. Anyways, Ollie grabs Prometheus' key off his dead body . . it's the way that he transports himself, and says that he's not done until he finds the Electrocutioner. So . . next week in Green Arrow #31 . . not only is Ollie hunting down the Electrocutioner, but the JLA will also be hunting him. This was a fantastic issue, with an incredible story by JT Krul. The art was shared by Mike Mayhew, Diogenes Neves and Fabrizio Fiorentino. If this is what the rest of the Rise and Fall of Green Arrow is going to be like . . we're in for a heck of a ride.

Edited January 13, 2017 by tv echo

[Angel12d]

8 hours ago, sadfangirl said:

What I want is Oliver to be angry at Felicity for going behind his back, and she'll throw it back at him for all the times he's done it to her, and to Diggle.

That would then allow the fight that they need to have to clear the air. Felicity has bottled all of it up - so does Oliver, and it needs to explode. 

I'm up for this, as long as it doesn't end up with Oliver angry at Felicity and she just stands there and takes it and says she's sorry. She can apologize, of course, but I'd actually like it if she reminded him he's just as dumb, pretty much a lot of the time when it comes to going behind his team's back.

As for that picture Bamford posted, another limo crash/incident? Limos should just be banned. 

Edited January 13, 2017 by Angel12d

[insomniadreams88]

I think the problem is that didn't WM say that they talked off-screen? So while to us, there are still unresolved issues from S4, I feel like that's not the case for the writers. So yes, I'd like to see them talk about BMD (and clarify just how many times Oliver went to CC) and even bring up him not staying in the hospital with her (not as a main point, but even perhaps as a, "I'm used to doing things on my own, hence why I did X," from Felicity, etc., but I just don't think it's going to happen. These are things that I feel like I need to see them discuss on-screen before a reunion, but I don't think that's true for the writers. 

Right now, I think it's best to be happy that they haven't just moved on from Havenrock and are going to use it in Felicity's upcoming arc. They could have easily said she dealt with that over the summer and tried to make her arc all about losing Billy if they wanted, even with what we saw of them on-screen. 

[rtalive]

16 hours ago, Trisha said:

Well, before that tweet she tweeted this, which seems pretty innocuous as well. I mean, I know it angered shippers but she's just sharing an article about SA talking about her character. I didn't get why people would be upset with her over SA's quote. 

She also made a misstep (in the fandom's eye anyway) with this one, which she apologized for:

I dunno, I've always really liked her and am giving her the benefit of the doubt. I've followed her for years and she's never really posted anything that's offended me (before her Arrow days or during it).

She is cute, I also like her and her character, hope to give her more screen time and development. I don't see anything offensive, she seems like nice person with sense of humor. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

I think they will pretend all the mess that happened last year never happened because it's easier but I wouldn't put much thought about a comment made about something that happened off screen. Like Oliver was supposed to be the one that gave the eulogy at Tommy's funeral according to the comics they wrote but when they decided to shoot the scene they changed it and made Laurel do it. It never happened on screen anyway.

[wonderwall]

Look I agree that they need to talk about their issues, but to be angry, like statsgirl wanted her to be, would be reductive and would achieve nothing. That's all I meant. 

[Trisha]

42 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

As for that picture Bamford posted, another limo crash/incident? Limos should just be banned. 

This is probably crazy wishful thinking, but maybe it's a flashback to 4x09? If Billy was just the last straw for Felicity, maybe they're going back to remind us all the things that happened to her to make her "dark." (Meanwhile, on Twitter I see lots of people speculating that it'll be a redux of 4x09, but with Susan instead of Felicity. I'm really, really hoping that's not it.)

[insomniadreams88]

5 minutes ago, Trisha said:

This is probably crazy wishful thinking, but maybe it's a flashback to 4x09? If Billy was just the last straw for Felicity, maybe they're going back to remind us all the things that happened to her to make her "dark." (Meanwhile, on Twitter I see lots of people speculating that it'll be a redux of 4x09, but with Susan instead of Felicity. I'm really, really hoping that's not it.)

It better not be a 409 redux with Susan. Maybe Prometheus recreates 409 with random people to get to Oliver? Sort of like he recreated the scene in 509?

[Midnight Lullaby]

I don't think the limo from 409 looked like that..I remember the bullet holes but not that much damage to the rest of it..I was wondering instead who on the show this year is rich enough to go around in a limo, LOL

[Angel12d]

5 minutes ago, Trisha said:

This is probably crazy wishful thinking, but maybe it's a flashback to 4x09? If Billy was just the last straw for Felicity, maybe they're going back to remind us all the things that happened to her to make her "dark." (Meanwhile, on Twitter I see lots of people speculating that it'll be a redux of 4x09, but with Susan instead of Felicity. I'm really, really hoping that's not it.)

It's a good theory but I don't think they'd spend that much money wrecking another limo just to remind us of everything that's happened to Felicity tbh. They could easily just do quick flashes of those moments. Plus I don't remember the limo in 409 being that wrecked, with the front wheel hanging off. Not that that means much continuity wise. 

I actually just think this is something new. 

[Chaser]

I agree. I think it's Mayor related, especially given his look in FB live. 

Thinking about the different kind of action, wondering if he means some caper type action. Like the Russian club and the fancy dress pic with EBR, EK and JD. Or he means he is in the Arrow suit less because he plays Mayor and the boobies are out.

I go back and forth on Felicity's 'legacy'. I don't think it's Smoak Tech related. They don't seem to have much desire to write it and they lost the set to Supergirl. I hesitate to say its anytype of Team up with Argus because that would be mean players to carry onto next seasons and I'm not sure they would commit to that. Timing wise: Does is sound like 10-12 set up, 14/15 questionable cohorts, fallout, Legacy? 

You know, I hope Tina is to Felicity what Diggle is to Oliver. Random thought but I was just thinking about all the focus on the male relationships and got bitter. Another thought, I saw some rumblings on twitter about people not wanted to tweet about Tina because it would give her too much buzz (taking screen time from Felicity fears and making her a LI to Oliver). While I don't believe she is getting a lot of buzz, if this was the case and they were reading the tweets, wouldn't that tell the EPs connecting her to Felicity would give her the biggest buzz cause Felicity? 

[Sunshine]

55 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I don't think the limo from 409 looked like that..I remember the bullet holes but not that much damage to the rest of it..I was wondering instead who on the show this year is rich enough to go around in a limo, LOL

Mayor's vehicle. We've already seen it once with Thea in 5.05 when "Oliver" was shot.

[Trisha]

11 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I agree. I think it's Mayor related, especially given his look in FB live. 

Wasn't there a BTS photo that JB posted showing the mayor's desk looking all shot up? Anyone know what ep they were filming when he posted that? I wonder if it's the same episode, or if Oliver as Mayor gets shot at repeatedly?

[way2interested]

Just now, Trisha said:

Wasn't there a BTS photo that JB posted showing the mayor's desk looking all shot up? Anyone know what ep they were filming when he posted that? I wonder if it's the same episode, or if Oliver as Mayor gets shot at repeatedly?

That was 513, a while ago. Looks like Oliver's just a bullet-prone mayor.

Edited January 13, 2017 by way2interested

[Midnight Lullaby]

8 minutes ago, Chaser said:

 

You know, I hope Tina is to Felicity what Diggle is to Oliver. Random thought but I was just thinking about all the focus on the male relationships and got bitter. Another thought, I saw some rumblings on twitter about people not wanted to tweet about Tina because it would give her too much buzz (taking screen time from Felicity fears and making her a LI to Oliver). While I don't believe she is getting a lot of buzz, if this was the case and they were reading the tweets, wouldn't that tell the EPs connecting her to Felicity would give her the biggest buzz cause Felicity? 

Yup, the focus is generally on the male relationships..with Felicity we get her being supportive of a mask, propping them because apparently they think this way the audience is going to love them and nothing in return. I think the closest we got was with Laurel that hugged her after she came back from NP but then after the break up Laurel was all over Oliver so the interest wasn't to write a friendship between the two women imo. I don't think it's going to be any different this time..I think we will get Felicity being supportive of Tina and that will be the extent of said "friendship". They just don't seem to care for those type of relationships.

About the buzz I don't know what to think because they keep pushing WD like there's no tomorrow and the reception doesn't seem to be enthusiastic to me. I think regardless of what the fans think they are going to keep her and write the story they want. Maybe if the fans seem receptive they'll feel more validated in their choice but it seems to me that when they decide to push something/someone they go for it.

[Trisha]

New from EW:

Quote

While executive producer Marc Guggenheim declined to comment on what the Laurel Lance reveal in the super-spoilery winter premiere promo means, EW asked him whether Arrow has long-term plans for the future of Laurel Lance. “The episode ends with laying a very specific seed with a very specific game part on our part that we hope to see come to fruition,” Guggenheim says. So make of that what you will.

I'm guessing he's talking about Tina as the new BC, which is weird because the question was about Laurel. 

[Chaser]

Laurel is means to an end.

[dtissagirl]

Natalie Abrams, srsly, the long-term plans for the future of Laurel Lance are the same long-term plans they ever made for her: replacing her over and over and over again. This is like the 17th time they're gonna replace Laurel on the show. Come on.

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, way2interested said:

That was 513, a while ago. Looks like Oliver's just a bullet-prone mayor.

Which makes him perfect for the position, really. That should be his platform for the next election. Managed to survive the term.

[insomniadreams88]

2 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Which makes him perfect for the position, really. That should be his platform for the next election. Managed to survive the term.

And with threats to his life because he's the mayor and Oliver Queen. Really, it's pretty impressive. 

[Sunshine]

Instead of 4.09 what if the limo scene is a recreation of 2.20 with Susan and Thea instead of Moira and Thea?  It might be what prompts Malcolm's return in 5.17 or 5.18 (depending on time jump). I am talking crash only.  Susan might die or need serious rehab so she leaves similar to McKenna Hall.  Oliver goes and stays at hospital (for growth of course).  

Probably a break after this episode so it could be a cliffhanger.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Sunshine

[statsgirl]

Poor Natalie Abrams.  She really bet on the wrong horse.  (Remember when she said that Oliver told Slade he loved Felicity because he really loved Laurel and was trying to protect her?)

I wonder what is going to be keeping Oliver so busy as mayor that he doesn't have time to suit up as  GA.

They tried to connect Laurel to Felicity too and that failed miserably.  Tina is already going to be the target of the BC/LL fans; if they have any sense of self-preservation, they would make her Felicity's friend and not Oliver's LI.  But they seem to think that all single female characters who are not related to Oliver have to be his LI.

I'd love it if Felicity's legacy could be making the biochip affordable. It would also serve to get Curtis out of the field and back in the lab. Sadly, I don't think they care enough about non-fighting things to do that.

The comics info on Prometheus is making my head hurt. It's worse than a soap opera.  But

4 hours ago, tv echo said:

 'Prometheus' specialty had always been an uncanny knowledge of his opponents . . he studied our abilities, skills and tendencies. He took into account my proficiency with the bow. He was well aware of my hand-to-hand combat training. But Prometheus never grasped that vital piece of information. He never knew that at my core, I wasn't a hero. I was a hunter.' And that line right there really summed it up, for me, as to just how cold Ollie had become.

That might be the direction they're going to take with this season. Prometheus knows everything about Oliver so it's something about his personality that defeats him in the end.  And also suggests that they are writing Oliver deliberately cold this season.  (Please anticipate Susan, please anticipate Susan.)

11 hours ago, wonderwall said:

What? Oliver making him not going to visit her in the hospital has nothing to do with him hurting her in 415 nor did I ever mention that. Idk where you got that from. Him making it up to her resolves the whole hospital thing. The BMD is something else entirely. 

If Oliver hurt people intentionally then it would make the pattern be more malicious. But he doesn't. I think Oliver is an emotionally weak man which is what the island and his PTSD did to him. It's extremely frustrating when we see him make terrible decisions whilst emotional. This is also why I think we see him fuck up more than anyone else. Is this an excuse? No. I think when Oliver screws up, he should own up to it. But it makes sense to me why he messes up more often.

Just a reply and then dropping it:

Oliver not telling Felicity about William is putting his needs ahead of hers, just as he did when he didn't go to see Felicity in the hospital and she lay there for days thinking he was rejecting her because she was broken.  And right after Felicity ending their engagement because he sent William away without talking it over with her, he manipulates her through the wedding and his real vows, once again putting what he wants over what she does.  An apology, not matter how loving, doesn't erase the event or give a pass when it happens again. It's not just that he messes up, it's that he keeps messing up in the same way and Felicity doesn't want that kind of relationship.  If the island really break him emotionally so that he can't give Felicity the kind of relationship she wants, then they really do need to end for good.

[Sunshine]

Not suiting up much:

5.10 A lot of it is in his mayoral attire. It's how he's dressed when he sees BS. Does suit up at some point.

5.11 Hub City road trip with the boys - casual attire

5.12 The team goes to Russia

5.13 Attack on Mayor's office. Rene's flashback episode. Might suit up but maybe not significantly.

[apinknightmare]

LOL @ Curtis finding Tina on the internet. 

Guess the team is swiping right. 

Edited January 13, 2017 by apinknightmare

[way2interested]

LOL @ Tina hating vigilantes yet apparently being one.

[Belinea]

So, does she now hate vigilantes? I have a feeling that Oliver will convince her to become a good guy and fight for the cause because he is just such an talent when it comes to convincing people to do things.