Episode Discussion: TFGH

[jsbt]

I thought they hit that note with Nathan a little too hard, and more than once. I do think his ex is coming at some point. With Ron's pacing that may be 2016.

[ulkis]

Yeah, totally different.  :-)

 

But I see both sides of the Dante/Lulu debate: Those who are sick of the clichés and wonder why one couple can't defy the odds. But the other side, I get that, too. Why should D/L get special treatment when other couples got so spectacularly destroyed because...reasons? Why should they be in a special bubble?

 

But that's the thinking these hacks have fostered.

 

I'm gonna reply in the relationship thread.

[Tiger]

I really liked the Dante/Valerie conversation about being raised by a single mom, and Michael calling The Captain & The Mooch out on their shit.

I really like Rick Hearst, but I can't watch him with hair looking like that.

I hope Valerie kills Uncle Lewq and then kills Franco, Nina, Spinelli, Spencer and Kiki for reasons because of course.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Tiger

[jsbt]

Thank you for clarifying. But this wasn't clear in your post. 

 

I think it was.

 

And no, I personally don't think this behavior is implicit to Liz's core character, but I do think the writing over at least the last several years (and in the final years of Guza's regime) have made it that way over time. They've really dragged her through the mud and made her pathetic in a lot of ways, and I don't think either the character or the actress deserved it. I think they've conditioned the audience to expect this and little else of her, so I don't think that makes her Teflon. I think she's just the opposite. She's a character everyone immediately knows is never going to really be happy because she is written to make all the wrong decisions at any given moment, so she's become sort of a pathetic existential joke.

 

My post is not intended to handwave Liz's behavior and put it on Sam. I put most of Liz's behavior over the last three or four years on the writers. But she's also not a priority to them, whereas Sam still is, insofar as any female character on this show can be who isn't played by Michelle Stafford or Kathleen Gati. I'm not going to walk it or how I said it back, it's how I feel and I stand by it. To you it's about the characters, to me it is about the same ways Ron clearly views both these women - as a plot calculation.

Edited April 7, 2015 by jsbt

[TeeVee329]

I really think the "Nathan's ex" conversation was just a conversation. I don't think any ex will be showing up. 

 

I think the ex will show up eventually, but I don't think it's Valerie anymore, not when they're clearly angling to play her with Dante and Lulu.

[ulkis]

I think the ex will show up eventually, but I don't think it's Valerie anymore, not when they're clearly angling to play her with Dante and Lulu.

 

Oh, hopefully by the time they get around to it Nathan will have turned into a pillar of salt or something and there will be no need.

[Oracle42]

Michael is just the best! Drunk/drugged Michael on a truthy spree is entirely delightful

[sashabear21]

I watched the show for the first time in two months today, and I'm already wishing I hadn't.  Hooray to Michael for telling Morgan to shut up and quit calling him Mikey. That needed to happen a long time ago.   I still just can't with this Luke shit.  They really need to retire the character.  How long are they going to drag out this Jake/Jason reveal? Also, what the hell was Jason's fake wife wearing? It looked like a Gunne Sax dress my sister wore to Homecoming in the 80's.  And she's just hanging out in the hotel wearing that? Whatever, guess she doesn't know the joys of hanging out in a hotel room wearing yoga pants and eating copious amounts of cheese. Morgan and Kiki need to be punched in the face repeatedly.  I think I might need another two month break.   

[TeeVee329]

I could see Valerie and Nathan getting mixed up as part of the bigger story (Dante and Lulu set them up, but Valerie actually has eyes for Dante, etc.).

[Francie]

They haven't always been like this. I'll just use the triangle between Sonny/Brenda/Jax as an example. Couples weren't dismantled and slapped back together and viewers where to go with it because "Look! they are back together. Forget everything that happened in between"

 

It has been like that for the past decade and is a big part of why the genre is disappearing.

Agreed and agreed.  

 

The easy manner by which those in a relationship disregard their commitment is a creature of the last 15 to 20 years.  Yes, couples used to have affairs or otherwise break up, but there was build up.  It wasn't just "oops, my penis just fell into your vagina."

 

Anna and Robert never cheated on each other, and there was no hint that they would. Yes, the show engaged in a crazy hypnosis plot that caused Robert to suspect Anna had cheated on him, but, importantly, a) she didn't; and b) it was straightened out.  In fact, the writers had to go to the extreme of writing an hypnosis plot to make that be the tension in their relationship.

 

Likewise, as much as I can't stand Holly as a character, once Robert and Holly became committed, the only thing close to cheating was when Robert kissed Anna. And she was a prior love of his life, etc. So it wasn't taken lightly.  It wasn't triggered by something as trivial as "Oh, my husband and I are having problems, and I shared half a beer with a cute stranger." (I'm side-eyeing Sam and Caleb, errr, McBain).

 

Sure, there was a *huge* quad back in 1979 with Rick, Lesley, Monica, and Alan.  But again, Rick and Monica's one night affair wasn't something just 'thrown in.'  It was carefully crafted and built up.  Again, they were old lovers.  Monica had never gotten over Rick.  Etc.  It wasn't just "Ehh, we're here. Let's do this."

 

Going back to Robert and Anna, Ron had tweeted last year that Robert's last scene with Anna, had it not been his last scene with Anna and Tristan would have stuck around, would have involved a kiss between the two.  Now that would have been tawdry and out of character for the two of them, because Anna was in a committed relationship with Duke at the time.  And while I could believe that days upon days of close proximity in captivity might have caused their feelings to return, the writing did not indicate that.  And a kiss at the police station would have come out of nowhere, at least to me. 

 

So that's my long, long, long way of saying that I agree with you.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Francie

[OnceSane]

Damn, after Michael yelled at Morgan about calling him "Mikey", I feel bad I call him that sometimes.

Ugh, Sonny. You are not the special snowflake you think you are. I wish Sabrina had breezed right by him. "No time to chat! I have strict instructions to keep assholes away from AJ. Byesies!" But then Sonny wouldn't see Michael acting just. Like. His. Fat. Bio-dad.

Nik is a shitty Cassadine, isn't he? That was just sad.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

To you it's about the characters, to me it is about the same ways Ron clearly views both these women - as a plot calculation.

 

This is my last post on this subject.

 

It is not about the characters to me, I was the one who broadened the subject to what I think has become a problem for the genre.  I replied to you saying one character is going to be screwed over for the other.

 

Apparently I can't comprehend simple English because "Liz is going to be screwed over for Sam" means something entirely different.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Deputy Deputy CoS

[mybabyaidan]

Damn, after Michael yelled at Morgan about calling him "Mikey", I feel bad I call him that sometimes.

 

I only call him that because the "c" key on my keyboard is missing the actual key and it's a pain to type.  LOL, so Mikey is easier to type.

 

I am gathering today is not worth watching?

[ulkis]

I did watch the previews. lol at Michael flipping out, he sounds hilarious.

[jsbt]

Apparently I can't comprehend simple English because "Liz is going to be screwed over for Sam" means something entirely different.

 

You can feel however you want to feel about it. I don't think it's about Liz vs. Sam, I think it's about basically any character vs. the writing. I have zero interest in pitting those two against each other and taking inventory of which is more flawed at this point. I'm sorry if you took issue with the way I phrased it, but what you're assigning to it is not what I intended. It's not personal to the characters for me, it's simply about the way the show prioritizes them. There's a lot of characters who face that dynamic on the show. Someone has to go down for the sake of someone else's story, almost everyone's just a game piece.

[Oracle42]

The Luke stuff is just garbage. I just can.not with his bullshit case of the sadz.

I don't care anymore. I don't care about his reasons or his trauma from 50 years ago or his idiot family members and their determination to shield him from consequences

[sacrebleu]

Morgan: I don't know if we should keep making out, it might make things complicated

 

Kiki: Morgan, we have to make out, just keep thinking about our baby sister.

 

Me: That is totally not weird or gross or anything.. 

[ulkis]

The Luke stuff is just garbage. I just can.not with his bullshit case of the sadz.

I don't care anymore. I don't care about his reasons or his trauma from 50 years ago or his idiot family members and their determination to shield him from consequences

 

Where are Lucky's red rimmed eyes of teary judgement when we need them, damn it?

[Sake614]

Where are Lucky's red rimmed eyes of teary judgement when we need them, damn it?

 

In Nashville getting teary about his unborn baby lol!

[sacrebleu]

Massive plot hole alert. If we are now supposed to believe that Luke getting locked up by Heather is what prompted his evul-ness. Then when did he start bankrolling the Jeromes and how did he track down Julian in witness protection?

 

(or are we just not caring about this story making sense)

[peachmangosteen]

It deeply annoyed me that Sabrina let Sonny see Avery and I hope Michael fires her in his drug fueled rage.

 

I tried to watch the Samtrick scenes but I just couldn't do it.

 

Liz being a smug brat to Valerie about patient rights and whatnot was rich.

 

Can we just go ahead and have Dante/Valerie sleep together please so we don't have to endure this for months.

 

I ffwd the Luke stuff. I just can't. I don't care.

[LeftPhalange]

I thought they hit that note with Nathan a little too hard, and more than once. I do think his ex is coming at some point. With Ron's pacing that may be 2016.

 

I'm hoping a forest fire will have taken out the talking tree by the time 2016 rolls around.

[Bawoman]

I dunno, soaps have always been like this, IMO. Especially if we're talking about couples. No pairing ever has a "clean" relationship. They fall in love with other people, pretend like everything is awesome, and then go back to whoever the show wants them with.

 

I think the difference is in how its written. When a couple would break up on soaps before, it would take months of angst, of healing for the man and the woman to recover, if they did at all. And if they moved on with someone else, they made sure it made sense, character wise, and they took the time to not only make it believable, but sometimes even rootable in it's own right. They didn't push a couple together after only a few months in the most contrived, plot pointy ways possible just to get people to watch because, ooh, X is gonna sleep with Y now! And if they didn't move on, they let the hurt, or the grief, or the jeaolusy be part of the story itself, instead of having him or her sleep with some other character and fall in love for 3 months before plot points dictated that they too must fall out of love. 

 

Stories then were much organic, not as rushed, not as contrived, not as gimmicky. The point of views for the characters involved are almost always superficial. Why and how did Jake develop feelings for Liz, for instance? Becase she is pretty and was nice to him? Why are Patrick and Sam "in love"? Was it anything deeper than them being attracted to each other and having good chemistry? Did they ever really connect on a deeper level? I'm not saying that isn't important, but to get people to care, the characters need to be more emotionally invested in each other, we need to see the angst and the fear people sometimes feel when falling in love, we need to see them going through more hurdles, and not by mustache twirling villains, but hurdles put forth by themselves as well. 

 

The short of it is writers are no longer willing to take time and effort into writting actual love stories. And that IS what is killing soaps. 

[ulkis]

I could see Valerie and Nathan getting mixed up as part of the bigger story (Dante and Lulu set them up, but Valerie actually has eyes for Dante, etc.).

 

It would amuse me if Maxie was like, "I thought you guys were rooting for me and Nathan!" and they were like, WE WEREN'T REALLY PAYING ATTENTION, OKAY MAXIE? 

[HeatLifer]

Which couples are the plot point? Who are we specifically talking about right now? Liz and Jakeson? Sam and Patrick? Isn't it obvious that they're being used to provide angst for JaSam? Isn't this about JaSam?

All in all, I agree that romance is not written how it used be. But we're not supposed to think Liz/Jakeson or Sam/Patrick are the LOVE STORY OF THE AGES. So this question should really only apply to JaSam. Is that love story/reconnection story being written well?

[TeeVee329]

With Patrick and Sam, I think the building blocks (single parents starting their lives over after losing a great love) made sense and you could have done something with Patrick's disapproval of the mob lifestyle running against his desire to be with Sam.  But everything was rushed, to get them to a certain point before the initial "Jason is alive!" reveal, and now to get them to another certain point before the "Jake(son) is Jason!" reveal.

 

But still, I don't hate this pairing with the fiery passion many of you do because, really, what's the alternative?  Ride-or-die Sam with Jason again or being shoved back together with Silas?  Patrick banging Princess Sabrina once more?  Patrick/Sam is the lesser of the evils, IMO.

Edited April 7, 2015 by TeeVee329

[HeatLifer]

So would I rather have Sam with Jason or Sam with Patrick talking about Jason?

Edited April 7, 2015 by HeatLifer

[jsbt]

I agree. I thought Patrick and Sam had something great starting out, and now it's just so rushed for Blockbuster September! Everything about at least 60% of the stories on the show is white noise to me, and that's a generous estimate.

[ulkis]

With Patrick and Sam, I think the building blocks (single parents starting their lives over after losing a great love) made sense and you could have done something with Patrick's disapproval of the mob lifestyle running against his desire to be with Sam.  But everything was rushed, to get them to a certain point before the initial "Jason is alive!" reveal, and now to get them to another certain point before the "Jake(son) is Jason!" reveal

 

Yeah, I really liked them in the beginning. The pool scenes come to mind. I don't know when they started to seem like they were permanently draped in purple bedsheets.

[HeatLifer]

I agree. I thought Patrick and Sam had something great starting out, and now it's just so rushed for Blockbuster September! Everything about at least 60% of the stories on the show is white noise to me, and that's a generous estimate.

From the second they put Sam and Patrick together for Patrick's investigation, it was obvious (to me, at least) that they didn't put the two together to create a genuine romantic couple. It was always about Jason.

[TeeVee329]

But at least they had a preexisting friendship and the commonalities in their situations made sense, unlike their respective relationships with Silas and Sabrina.

[jsbt]

Oh, I think they may bounce back to Patrick and Sam in time. I think any Jasam reunion will ultimately be a false dawn - Ron does those all the time, gives payoff and then begins really disassembling a couple. But the problem is he often doesn't properly assemble any alternatives. He's squandered the real chemistry between Thompson and Monaco for some really rushed, plotty shit.

 

It could easily be fixed and made something more befitting what they have together onscreen, but I don't think GH will do it.

Edited April 7, 2015 by jsbt

[HeatLifer]

Oh, I think they may bounce back to Patrick and Sam in time. I think any Jasam reunion will ultimately be a false dawn - Ron does those all the time, gives payoff and then begins really disassembling a couple. But the problem is he often doesn't properly assemble any alternatives. He's squandered the real chemistry between Thompson and Monaco for some really rushed, plotty shit.

 

It could easily be fixed and made something more befitting what they have together onscreen, but I don't think GH will do it.

I'm not going to pretend like I know what the future holds, but it doesn't matter to me if Ron eventually goes back to Samtrick and writes them for real (poor JT if he's still on the show for this). The fact is they started as a plot point and are continuing to be one now.

[TeeVee329]

Yeah, I can't see Ron really being able to write the "classic" Guza-style Jason/Sam so he'll keep Patrick (and Liz) in play in their orbit for as long as possible.

 

 I also think, when the reveal happens, people will find out Jake(son) is Jason, but he still won't remember, a la Maria on AMC.  He'll then insist that he's Jake now and stay with Liz so they can drag it out a few more months.

[yowsah1]

Let's assume, that Robin was the love of Patrick's life. Losing her, the first time, when she was "dead", should have had him going back to his horn dog ways....but instead we got the Regency version of Cinderella or some such, removing all the arrogance and dickishness that was Patrick Drake.

 

The arrogance, maybe, but the dickishness was there in full force and then some.  The way Patrick treated Sabrina was vile.

 

At no point in their history has Liz been thrown under the bus for Sam.

 

Like every other female on GH, Liz does not get thrown under the bus for another female character.  Like every other female on GH, she gets consistently thrown under the bus for male characters.

 

RC really needs to work on the stories he does in between sweeps.  They are 99% boring, 1% enraging, and 100% not worth bothering with.

Edited April 7, 2015 by yowsah1

[Oracle42]

I've accepted that RC only cares about sweeps but the script writers could've built up these relationships during the daily episodes between sweeps

Edited April 8, 2015 by Oracle42

[jsbt]

Like every other female on GH, Liz does not get thrown under the bus for another female character.  Like every other female on GH, she gets consistently thrown under the bus for male characters.

 

I think every single character on this show is thrown under the bus for plot. With the occasional exception of Ron's transitory favorites - Obrecht, Nina, Franco, some others in the past. For some of them their turn came, and so too will some of the latest favorites. Ava may still be here, but she's a shadow of what she used to be.

Edited April 7, 2015 by jsbt

[HeatLifer]

Yeah, I can't see Ron really being able to write the "classic" Guza-style Jason/Sam so he'll keep Patrick (and Liz) in play in their orbit for as long as possible.

 

 I also think, when the reveal happens, people will find out Jake(son) is Jason, but he still won't remember, a la Maria on AMC.  He'll then insist that he's Jake now and stay with Liz so they can drag it out a few more months.

And all of that would still be plot points to postpone what they consider the "real" story, which is JaSam.

[TeeVee329]

Ava may still be here, but she's a shadow of what she used to be.

 

Indeed, the poor dear, stuck with Silas.

 

Previews..."Do you think that Valerie is dangerous?" asks Lulu, who just came from wiping up the tears of the man who spent the last year trying to kill her and the rest of their family.  Whatever, Lu.

[jsbt]

I think Ric (RH) looks good with the beard - so did MB.  I don't really blame Ric, although I hate that the writing has gone right back to making Ric the bad guy (same as with AJ and making him the loser drunk).  Elizabeth is the dumb one for going back to him - and she will.  She's the pathetic one in that Ric knows her so well that he just has to manipulate the situation a little bit and Elizabeth will do exactly as he hoped. 

 

I think they're both deeply pathetic. Those texts were embarrassing and hilarious.

 

And the thing is, nobody has to be pathetic - I thought they rekindled something genuine and heartfelt with Ric and Liz this time last year (and I was never a fan of the couple in the 2000s), but now it's gone in favor of the usual Ron plot points and character regression, where no one ever becomes more than what they once were unless they're played by a favorite. They could've built something real and internally conflicted by the duality of Ric's nature, but they did this instead.

Edited April 7, 2015 by jsbt

[Cobalt Stargazer]

The arrogance, maybe, but the dickishness was there in full force and then some.  The way Patrick treated Sabrina was vile.

 

Which is why I'm really hoping that he gets squashed hard when Sam goes running back to Jason. I hope she leaves boot prints on his face.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Cobalt Stargazer

[jsbt]

And all of that would still be plot points to postpone what they consider the "real" story, which is JaSam.

 

I think with most stories on this show there is no real story, just the next story. Unless you're a key favorite, in which case it's about cementing you or that couple. IMO NuJason qualifies, but Jason and any of the women currently in his orbit do not.

[HeatLifer]

I think with most stories on this show there is no real story, just the next story. Unless you're a key favorite, in which case it's about cementing you or that couple. IMO NuJason qualifies, but Jason and any of the women currently in his orbit do not.

I dunno, I may have to disagree. I think Sam is a clear favorite. Jason, too.

[TeeVee329]

I still think Ron drained all the potential drama out of the eventual reveal.  Jake(son) should be pursuing a life completely different from his old one, which would make for dramatic stakes when he realized who he really was.  But he's working for the mob, besties with Carly, hot for Sam and Liz, etc.  So.  Boring.

 

He's also treating Rebecca Budig pretty shitty, which...we know she's a con, but he doesn't, you know?

[Ambrosefolly]

With Patrick and Sam, I think the building blocks (single parents starting their lives over after losing a great love) made sense and you could have done something with Patrick's disapproval of the mob lifestyle running against his desire to be with Sam.  But everything was rushed, to get them to a certain point before the initial "Jason is alive!" reveal, and now to get them to another certain point before the "Jake(son) is Jason!" reveal.

 

But still, I don't hate this pairing with the fiery passion many of you do because, really, what's the alternative?  Ride-or-die Sam with Jason again or being shoved back together with Silas?  Patrick banging Princess Sabrina once more?  Patrick/Sam is the lesser of the evils, IMO.

The problem for isn't that it is too rushed, it that I believe they missed their moment. It should have happened in the months after both Robin and Jason died. This just makes Patrick an even bigger douche because he (as well as everyone else) knows that Robin wouldn't willingly leave Emma if something deadly serious was going on. 

[ulkis]

Indeed, the poor dear, stuck with Silas.

 

Previews..."Do you think that Valerie is dangerous?" asks Lulu, who just came from wiping up the tears of the man who spent the last year trying to kill her and the rest of their family.  Whatever, Lu.

 

I got the impression Dante was the one who said it first, but we'll see I guess.

[jsbt]

I think they know Kelly Monaco is a key draw and use Sam appropriately, but I don't think she's any more or less of a chesspiece than the rest.

 

I still think Ron drained all the potential drama out of the eventual reveal.  Jake(son) should be pursuing a life completely different from his old one, which would make for dramatic stakes when he realized who he really was.  But he's working for the mob, besties with Carly, hot for Sam and Liz, etc.  So.  Boring.

 

I know. God, that is the worst part. I was thinking about it the other day and to me the story took a sharp downturn the minute Sam became his best friend, when everyone started paying for his room and board, and rallying around him as a great unsung hero... just like Jason Morgan. I didn't like Liz latching onto him either, I think that entire relationship is such a waste of time, but at least early on he was still this stranger in a strange land, forging new bonds with people other than her. (I really like Billy Miller's easy chemistry with Chad Duell.)

 

I thought it would have been great to have him, say, working at the hospital as a custodian, or maybe a new driver/bodyguard for the Quartermaines - have him get to know Monica, Tracy, Michael. Rediscover that world. When Jake first woke up he was briefly fascinated by the pictures of Alan, A.J., etc. Give him scenes with Leslie Charleson and the other Qs, let him do new things while also, say, befriending Carly or other people connected to Jason Morgan, and then have him be faced with reconciling who he is now (and once was, long ago) to his old life in the mob. Instead he is literally repeating all the same stuff I never gave a shit about Jason Morgan doing.

Edited April 7, 2015 by jsbt

[dubbel zout]

Liz being a smug brat to Valerie about patient rights and whatnot was rich.

 

HIPAA is always a plot point, but I can't really blame Liz for not wanting Valerie to see Luke. Valerie comes in spitting nails at Liz, whom she's never met, and expects instant access to a patient. Save that anger and venom for Luke.

 

STFU, Luke. 

 

Sabrina seriously lets Sonny see Avery when the entire point of the custody suit was to get Avery away? Sonny sucks for putting her in that position.

 

I love how hiring a nanny is the pinnacle of unfit guardianship. If Lauren got custody, she couldn't even afford to take care of Avery on her own.

 

Oh, Nik. You are so deeply dumb. Liz just told you she and Ric might be getting back together, and you think Helena is the one behind Hayden's appearance in PC?

 

I still think Ron drained all the potential drama out of the eventual reveal.  Jake(son) should be pursuing a life completely different from his old one, which would make for dramatic stakes when he realized who he really was.  But he's working for the mob, besties with Carly, hot for Sam and Liz, etc.  So.  Boring.

Boring? Nonsense. It's irony. It's drama.

[WendyCR72]

Let's assume, that Robin was the love of Patrick's life. Losing her, the first time, when she was "dead", should have had him going back to his horn dog ways....but instead we got the Regency version of Cinderella or some such, removing all the arrogance and dickishness that was Patrick Drake.

 

This, I completely agree with. But the Patrick/Sabrina farce was RC wanting to make his mark with one of his creations from word go...without taking the much-needed time to allow the audience to mourn for Robin for a bit before Sabrina comes literally out of freaking nowhere and daydreams about Patrick on her first day. Who gave a shit? And Ron telling the audience they would love Sabrina without giving them any reasons to by showing it was just dumb.

 

Patrick stopped being his own character the minute she showed up. It hasn't been much better with Sam, but I argue that the Patrick as awesome/perfect boyfriend instead of multi-faceted horndog with abandonment issues that was originally established, did him no favors and just stripped the character to stock chess piece.

 

And it's why I cannot, will not, and won't ever boohoo about Sabrina getting shit upon, because, to me, Patrick got buried under the shitpile to service her useless self, and the character - while always a jackass, but with some empathy and awareness under Guza and Company - has never recovered from that mess and it has pigeon-holed him.

[Oracle42]

I wish Jake's interactions with Liz had been a result of him working in the hospital instead of living in her house.