Caitlyn Jenner: Call Me Caitlyn

[millennium]

It's just that "cis" doesn't correspond to anything else currently in our language.   I get that it's a latin root meaning the opposite of "trans" but it seems a forced fit (just my opinion).

[Kromm]

It's just that "cis" doesn't correspond to anything else currently in our language.   I get that it's a latin root meaning the opposite of "trans" but it seems a forced fit (just my opinion).

I guess so.  On it's own I believe it means "on the same side", whereas trans means "on the other side".

 

So maybe it's not the most elegant word, then again the limited circumstances it's used in don't really require it to be.

 

if you think of other words using the prefix "trans", do they even tend to HAVE opposite concepts to assign words to?  "Transcontinental"?  Closest you can get to the opposite is a totally different word like "local".  "Transportation".  No real opposite. "Transaction".  No real opposite.  "Transfer"?  Can't really think of one.

[iwasish]

Burt's really not over things. I also don't know how he can blame the recent tv show for Bruce not being in his life for the all the 15 years before it. Bruce already wasn't having anything to do with parenting him. The tv show had nothing to do with it. I don't see how Bruce isn't a father for 15 years, but the tv that just started in 7 years ago was the nail in the coffin.

 

Burt's just irrationally bitter.

I think he has a right to be bitter. As much right as Kris has at least. Bruce's gender issues seem to be a convenient excuse for him to justify ignoring his 4 eldest kids, but they didn't hold him back from being a great father to two additional kids and a great step dad to someone else's 4 kids. I didn't read Burt's comments about the show as being the reason for Bruce's failures as a father, just that the show kind of shoved it in his face that his father had devoted his life to a new family and to kids that weren't even his own biological children.. that HE CHOSE to parent someone else's kids and walk away from his other biological children. And be all over TV and the tabloids getting kudos. I get Burt's feelings. And Bruce wants to make it all okay with an apology and I'll try to do better in the future speech. I saw how he cut Brody off when Brody tried to express his hurt over how he was treated, I imagine Burt gets the same treatment.

Edited June 5, 2015 by iwasish

[Adiba]

I was wondering about this. Glad that for Kylie and Kendall's sake she's still wanting the kids to call her "dad." It might be better for Khloe too, she had been using "dad" and "parent" more since the transition started. 

 

Caitlyn Jenner Still Lets Her Kids Call Her 'Dad': Sources

 

Interesting article on Caitlyn's new branding.

 

 

 

Burt Jenner: I hope Caitlyn Jenner will be a 'better person'

http://www.thespec.com/whatson-story/5657449-burt-jenner-i-hope-caitlyn-jenner-will-be-a-better-person-/

 

Burt's really not over things. I also don't know how he can blame the recent tv show for Bruce not being in his life for the all the 15 years before it. Bruce already wasn't having anything to do with parenting him. The tv show had nothing to do with it. I don't see how Bruce isn't a father for 15 years, but the tv that just started in 7 years ago was the nail in the coffin. 

 

Burt's just irrationally bitter.

I don't think it's fair, imo, to use the word " irrational" here. Burt may be bitter, but his experience and rationale are his own.

I'm glad Caitlyn has agreed to be called "dad" for now. She is the biological father of six, and I imagine some of her offspring must need time to process and adjust to this change.

[evilmindatwork]

I think her original kids have a right to feel however they want about the abandonment. Why shouldn't they be bitter about a parent missing large portions of their life. I think Caitlyn is lucky they try to be in her life at all 

[Artsda]

 

I think he has a right to be bitter. As much right as Kris has at least. Bruce's gender issues seem to be a convenient excuse for him to justify ignoring his 4 eldest kids, but they didn't hold him back from being a great father to two additional kids and a great step dad to someone else's 4 kids. I didn't read Burt's comments about the show as being the reason for Bruce's failures as a father, just that the show kind of shoved it in his face that his father had devoted his life to a new family and to kids that weren't even his own biological children.

He does have the right to be bitter at his dad, but show or no show wasn't changing what was transpiring and already transpired. Bruce had already been a devoted father to the other 6 kids for 15 years before the show started. All those home movies, all the family trips, the being at their sports and activities with a camcorder. All that happened before the show,  Bruce was the devoted father of the 6 long before the show.

 

So I do think claiming manufactured drama and scenes put together for tv ( after 15 years of no relationship ) was the nail in the coffin makes no sense. It's like trying to lay final blame on something that really had nothing to do with how Bruce was a parent. If once he became more famous he had even less to do with the bio kids, again that's on Bruce not the show.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Artsda

[iwasish]

He does have the right to be bitter at his dad, but show or no show wasn't changing what was transpiring and already transpired. Bruce had already been a devoted father to the other 6 kids for 15 years before the show started. All those home movies, all the family trips, the being at their sports and activities with a camcorder. All that happened before the show,  Bruce was the devoted father of the 6 long before the show.

 

So I do think claiming manufactured drama and scenes put together for tv ( after 15 years of no relationship ) was the nail in the coffin makes no sense. It's like trying to lay final blame on something that really had nothing to do with how Bruce was a parent. If once he became more famous he had even less to do with the bio kids, again that's on Bruce not the show.

Having your dad essentially abandon you to raise someone else's  kids is bad enough. Having to watch him on TV with those kids and see him and them being one big happy family, along with listening to them spew some crap about  "their brothers" and show home movies and pretend that he didn't pretty much forget you existed, I can see how Burt could feel at that point that any hope he had for the relationship was over. Not to say they  couldn't reconcile or try to mend that relationship years later, but I don' t think Burt's out of line for his feelings.

[Artsda]

I don't think Burt sat at home on Sunday nights and DVR'd KUWTK or watch it weekly at 9pm.  HIs own twitter handler was "Yes..I'm related."  I just don't see that 15 years and a tv show makes you think the relationship is over, it had already been 15 years. 

 

Today's Brandon's birthday and I think it'll be interesting to see if any of the 6 especially Kendall or Kylie wish him a happy birthday because since the transition it seems like sides have been taken more so than before. Based on the articles from Leah's baby shower it also seems like none, not even Caitlyn, Kendall or Kylie attended. People and all the other press that reported on it, would have been quick to point out them being in attendance. May be they'll be another one for the K side. lol

Edited June 5, 2015 by Artsda

[iwasish]

I don't think Burt sat at home on Sunday nights and DVR'd KUWTK or watch it weekly at 9pm.  HIs own twitter handler was "Yes..I'm related."  I just don't see that 15 years and a tv show makes you think the relationship is over, it had already been 15 years. 

 

Today's Brandon's birthday and I think it'll be interesting to see if any of the 6 especially Kendall or Kylie wish him a happy birthday because since the transition it seems like sides have been taken more so than before. Based on the articles from Leah's baby shower it also seems like none, not even Caitlyn, Kendall or Kylie attended. People and all the other press that reported on it, would have been quick to point out them being in attendance. May be they'll be another one for the K side. lol

I suspect that  despite Kris's public statement of support, she's not all that into Caitlyn's journey. Therefore, her kids are most likely going to rally around her, as they should. Kim especially is defensive of her mother. She may have difficulty though, wanting to be in the bubble of attention Caitlyn is getting and being her mothers loyal daughter.  

Khloe and Kourtney didn' go to the "Bruce on the loose" party out of 'respect' to Kris. I'm thinking there will be some cracks in all the relationships as time goes by.

Even though Kendall was annoyed at her father for withholding information, I don't know that she was too thrilled with Khloe giving him such a hard time. She did ask her to be "nice" to him when he showed later to apologize.  

[Jellybeans]

Well, I simply want to say she looks great. And puts Kris Jenner in the back seat.

[JBC344]

Well, Burt has appeared on the show several times over the years. So I don't know if those were last minute attempts to get close to Bruce.  I think when your an adult you get to a certain point where you either cut people out of your life or you have to learn to take people as they are.  It seemed to me that Burt at least for the show was getting along with Bruce in the last few years and had forged some sort of relationship with him.

 

It seems to me that Kim and Caitlyn have become closer since she transitioned.  I think Kim and Bruce always had a good relationship but Kim was always a daddy's girl so I could see how when her dad was alive that Bruce was a good step-father that she got along with but she always had a strong bond with her dad, as opposed to Khloe and Rob who were much younger.  I think Kim and Caitlyn can/will have a nice adult friendship that can be separated and exist in a different space than what she had with Bruce.

[nexxie]

I don't think Burt sat at home on Sunday nights and DVR'd KUWTK or watch it weekly at 9pm.  HIs own twitter handler was "Yes..I'm related."  I just don't see that 15 years and a tv show makes you think the relationship is over, it had already been 15 years. 

 

Today's Brandon's birthday and I think it'll be interesting to see if any of the 6 especially Kendall or Kylie wish him a happy birthday because since the transition it seems like sides have been taken more so than before. Based on the articles from Leah's baby shower it also seems like none, not even Caitlyn, Kendall or Kylie attended. People and all the other press that reported on it, would have been quick to point out them being in attendance. May be they'll be another one for the K side. lol

Brandon and Kendall seem to have a lot in common, from their looks to their laid back personalities - I hope Kendall and Kylie have good relationships with the older Jenner kids.

[jonesingjay]

I think her original kids have a right to feel however they want about the abandonment. Why shouldn't they be bitter about a parent missing large portions of their life. I think Caitlyn is lucky they try to be in her life at all 

 

It'll be interesting to see how the relationships between Caitlyn and her older children develop. I don't think there is any reason that could explain why she abandoned them. She might use having trouble with her gender identity as part of the reason, but that doesn't wash for me. Regardless of the issues she was having with herself, she could've made the effort to be there for the four oldest ones. I think it's a great testament to the wonderful parenting job her ex-wives did, and the four old Jenner's willingness to forgive Caitlyn and move on. I hope she is grateful that she's been given another opportunity to have a relationship with Burt, Casey, Brandon and Brody. I'd like to believe that since she's now able to be herself, that it's freeing for her and positively effects the relationships with those in her life.

 

On, something of a completely unrelated note, I caught her on an episode of Murder, She Wrote. She was in her late 30s at the time this episode was filmed. Not on hormones (at least I don't think) and she looked pretty good. 

Edited June 6, 2015 by jonesingjay

[Kromm]

It seems to me that Kim and Caitlyn have become closer since she transitioned.  

How could we ever tell?  I mean very little to nothing Kim does is above suspicion of being fake/for the cameras/for a press release or conveniently phoned paparazzi.

[millennium]

Related to my earlier post.   I thought everyone might like to see this item, too.

 

 

 

(Trans) Woman (of Color) to (White, Super Rich, Celebrity Trans) Woman: An Open Letter to Caitlyn Jenner

 

The question that everyone is asking me these days is, “What do you think about Caitlyn Jenner?” But what I want to know is: what do you think of me?

 

Dear Caitlyn,

 

The truth is: I really didn’t want to write an article about you. I didn’t want to spend hours thinking about you, sifting the internet for the rare piece of insightful (or even coherent) commentary on your Vanity Fair cover, or wading through YouTube clips of your television appearances. Actually, I had no idea who you even were (I was born fifteen years after the Montreal Olympics and grew up without TV) until a few weeks ago, when the media circus around your gender identity began.

 

You see, I was tired of writing and thinking about trans women as media “items”– tired of the endless analysis, debate, scrutiny, sensation, that has opened up around us, our bodies, seemingly without having slowed the tide of discrimination, violence, and murder that claims so many of our sisters’ lives every year. Like many trans activists of color, I was wary of your whiteness, your wealth and privilege: what could a 65-year-old American celebrity with a net worth of one hundred million dollars possibly know about someone like me? What could – or rather, would – you offer to the rest of us, the trans* community you have now come, intentionally or not, to represent and speak for?

 

Regardless, however, of what I want or think, the fact is that in the past month you have had a palpable impact on my life, Caitlyn – mine and the lives of many, many other trans people living in the world today. I can no longer even try to count the number of times that cisgender friends, coworkers, and acquaintances have name-dropped you in my presence over the past month, as they eagerly searched my face for the hint of some emotional reaction. The day your interview with Diane Sawyer was broadcast, the texts and messages came rolling in: What did I think about Bruce Jenner? In the two days since your photos in Vanity Fair were released, your presence in my online and social life has redoubled in intensity.

 

As you well know, Caitlyn, the world is hungry for our story, for the freak show of transwomen’s lives and deaths. As this same story sells newspapers, attracts viewers, garners clicks and likes; poor and racialized transwomen continue to be placed in men’s prisons, excluded from employment, denied health care, beaten on the streets. And so, here I am now, writing you this letter – sending you a message from the other side of race, power, privilege, sisterhood. Ideally, you’ll read it and maybe even write me back. Popular media these days is so invested in talking about transwomen, putting us on display, critiquing our bodies and our sanity. Only rarely does it show us talking in a meaningful way with each other. So let’s talk, Caitlyn. Woman to woman. I’ll put aside my prejudices if you’ll keep an open mind.

 

The question that everyone is asking each other these days, the question I cannot escape, is, “What do you think about Caitlyn Jenner?” But what I want to know is what you think of me – a 24-year-old transwoman of Asian descent, a survivor of abuse and sexual assault, someone who makes less in a year than the cost of your wardrobe for a single Vanity Fair shoot. I want to know what you think about my fierce sister, a Mauritian artist and community organizer whose work is, little by little, changing the landscape for transwomen of color in the city we live in.

 

I want to know what you think about transwomen who have no financial options but to perform the most dangerous kinds of sex work. I want to know what you think about CeCe MacDonald, who was imprisoned in a men’s prison for stabbing the man who attacked her; and about Lamia Beard, Ty Underwood, Yazmin Vash Payn, Taja DeJesus, Penny Proud, Bri Golec, Kristina Gomez Reinwald, Sumaya Dalmar, all murdered in this past year. Have you, like me, engraved their stories on the inside of your heart?

 

Caitlyn, I want to know what you think about the fact that just the other day, while I was taking the subway home, two men came up to me and started sexually harassing me – and then, after staring at my chest for several seconds, started threatening to tear off my clothes to find out “whether it has a dick.” About the fact that I was surrounded by people who watched and did nothing. About the fact that stuff like this happens to me, to most transwomen who can’t afford or don’t want feminization surgeries every day. Do you ever take the subway, Caitlyn? Do you ever worry about this kind of violence, chartering private planes and driving your $180,000 Porsche?

 

I want to know how you feel about all of these things: the ties that bind and the differences between us. And most of all, I want to know what you plan to do about them. You’ve said that you want to hear the stories of other trans women and use your platform to “make things better.” I want so badly for this to mean more than just “raising awareness” through glamour photos and reality television – it’s true that trans people have been experiencing unprecedented visibility in recent years, but visibility alone will not save us. My community organizer’s mind goes wild just imagining all of the social programs I could run with a fraction of the money at your disposal.

 

So, what happens now, Caitlyn? Will you take your new body, your new face, your sports car, and ride off into the sunset? Or will you stand and fight with us? You may have never claimed to be any kind of transgender revolutionary, but you have the power and privilege to push for real change – the kind of power most of us would die for. The privilege you exercise in living openly as a transwoman stands on a foundation built on the bodies of black transwomen activists like Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P Johnson. What will you give in return?

 

It’s hard for me to put my faith in you. A lot of trans folks of color have already written you off as a a “rich white bitch.” Truthfully, I can’t blame them – we’ve been screwed over too many times by the white “LGBT community.” But you know what, I’ve spent some time watching and reading your interviews, Caitlyn. I’ve seen that look in your eyes as you crossed the Olympic finish line in 1976. And the one thing that seems certain to me is that you are a woman who knows what it means to suffer, to struggle, to survive. To fight.

 

Congratulations on your transition, Ms Jenner. You’re beautiful and brave, no question. We could use someone like you in our corner. And if you ever need someone to talk things over with – well, there’s a whole lot of us over here, on the other side of sisterhood.

 

Sincerely,
Kai Cheng

 

http://www.xojane.com/issues/open-letter-to-caitlyn-jenner

 

My advice: don't hold your breath waiting for an answer, Miss Cheng.

Edited June 6, 2015 by millennium

[JBC344]

How could we ever tell?  I mean very little to nothing Kim does is above suspicion of being fake/for the cameras/for a press release or conveniently phoned paparazzi.

It seems to me that Caitlyn has mentioned Kim's help.  As well as others commenting about Kim being around a lot in a very natural supportive way.  There is a point of diminishing returns.  I don't think that Kim is forging a relationship with Caitlyn just for press.  Press is not something Kim lacks.  Like I mentioned earlier I just think that Kim can maybe relate to Caitlyn on a different level now that she is not Bruce and is living her truth and is probably a much happier, engaging person to be around. 

[Artsda]

 

How could we ever tell?  I mean very little to nothing Kim does is above suspicion of being fake/for the cameras/for a press release or conveniently phoned paparazzi.

Being at the Vanity Fair shoot didn't get her anything, but she was there to support Caitlyn for her first big shoot. 

 

 

 

I suspect that  despite Kris's public statement of support, she's not all that into Caitlyn's journey. Therefore, her kids are most likely going to rally around her, as they should. Kim especially is defensive of her mother. She may have difficulty though, wanting to be in the bubble of attention Caitlyn is getting and being her mothers loyal daughter. 

Khloe and Kourtney didn' go to the "Bruce on the loose" party out of 'respect' to Kris. I'm thinking there will be some cracks in all the relationships as time goes by.

I don't think that Bruce's scripted televised party really applies to reality present day, Kourtney was the one with Caitlyn post-surgery, when the paparazzi knew and were staked out they caught her going in and out to see her. Kris was even pictured once I think with Kourtney too.

 

 

Brandon and Kendall seem to have a lot in common, from their looks to their laid back personalities - I hope Kendall and Kylie have good relationships with the older Jenner kids.

I think they were on track, but not now. Kylie took offense to Burt's drumming up of drama "blast" tweet. Which became a public thing the tabloids picked up on.  The Jenner 4 also seem to be blaming and attacking the show a lot more for choices Bruce made and for this new series of his, attacking the production and saying it would be a circus because it's using E!/Bunim-Murray. Kendall and Kylie not attending Leah's shower I think showed some uncomfortable lines in the sand too.

[howmanywords]

It seems to me that Caitlyn has mentioned Kim's help.  As well as others commenting about Kim being around a lot in a very natural supportive way.  There is a point of diminishing returns.  I don't think that Kim is forging a relationship with Caitlyn just for press.  Press is not something Kim lacks.  Like I mentioned earlier I just think that Kim can maybe relate to Caitlyn on a different level now that she is not Bruce and is living her truth and is probably a much happier, engaging person to be around. 

ITA.  I guess I'm in the camp that doesnt believe every single thing Kim does is fake, but what does Caitlyn have to gain by talking about how supportive she's been? Nothing.  She's got plenty of people around her and there's no reason to single out Kim unless she meant it

[Kromm]

ITA.  I guess I'm in the camp that doesnt believe every single thing Kim does is fake, but what does Caitlyn have to gain by talking about how supportive she's been? Nothing.  She's got plenty of people around her and there's no reason to single out Kim unless she meant it

Kim is the biggest publicity magnet.  Kim and Kanye's connections get the magazine covers secured, the biggest name interviewers, etc.

 

Believing or disbelieving Caitlyn might "gain" from that basically boils down to if you think Caitlyn is magically some new person who isn't a crass opportunist or not. It doesn't sound like you think she is, but since Bruce was, I don't see why Caitlyn wouldn't also be. 

 

In retrospect you might say "well it looks like Bruce and Caitlyn had plenty of press ad plenty of magazine covers".  But that's the wrong direction to observe from. If we ask ourselves WHY that happened, suddenly being super-tight with Kimye seems like it might have contributed.  Sure there would have been a decent amount of attention no matter what, but I think this took it to the next level.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Kromm

[iwasish]

IMO Kim benefits from her support of Csitlyn as it shows the less shallow side of Kim, real or not. Kim has given lots of lip service over the years as to how great Bruce is/was, but rarely showed any real affection or respect for him. I found her interaction with him to be superficial and dismissive of him. In the last few years she's pretty much criticized his appearance or behavior everytime she's seen him.

[nexxie]

I just hope Caitlyn doesn't actually follow Kimye's fashion advice - they look awful most of the time!

Edited June 6, 2015 by nexxie

[kathe5133]

I just hope Caitlyn doesn't actually follow Kimye's fashion advice - they look awful most of the time!

She's in her late sixties, posed on the front of a national magazine in an "outfit" that was basically underwear. "Advice"? I don't think there is a word in the English language that can describe what her, and the passel of fools she is related to, truly need. The plus side, the transgender issue is now out there for debate and discussion and that is a good thing for those who are truly transgender. I am tired of being PC about "her". Those who are truly transgender have and will still have a hard road and I acknowledge that. Bruce/Caitlyn is a famewhore using this issue to get attention and revenue. "She" does not look hot, she doesn't even look like a drag queen. She looks like a man dressed as woman. The emperor has no clothes and though YMMV, I am tired of this trashy family and their manufactured drama.

Edited June 6, 2015 by OnceSane

[Mu Shu]

I agree that Caitlyn is not hot, but how can we know who is "truly transgendered", and who isn't?   I think she is, and I also think she is an unpleasant, vapid famewhore.

 

Then again,  there are people who transition who have noticeable personality shifts for the better, so here is hoping she will, too. 

[GaT]

To me, Caitlyn looks like a woman who has had a lot of plastic surgery. There is something about a person's face when they've had a lot of procedures done, it always looks obvious to me (like Kim), so I don't think she can ever look "natural" because of that. As for her looking "hot", well, she's 67 years old, the only woman I've ever heard of being in her 60s & still described as hot is Helen Mirren, it's not a word that is usually used to describe older women, which she is.

[thefog]

Whether people like this family or not, the fact remains they have a huge following - especially among younger fans.  So if their fame can help shed some understanding and acceptance, how exactly is that a bad thing.  The media coverage on the whole has been pretty positive. 

 

I find it very ironic how Kim, Kris are continuously brought into the conversation by their detractors, who in essence are giving them the same attention they being criticized for.

[jonesingjay]

Whether people like this family or not, the fact remains they have a huge following - especially among younger fans.  So if their fame can help shed some understanding and acceptance, how exactly is that a bad thing.  The media coverage on the whole has been pretty positive. 

 

I find it very ironic how Kim, Kris are continuously brought into the conversation by their detractors, who in essence are giving them the same attention they being criticized for.

 

Very well stated. I wish I could give this more than one thumb up. This all very well could shed some understanding and acceptance on the issue by fans of the Kardashians who otherwise might've never really given any thought to those that are transgender. 

Edited June 7, 2015 by jonesingjay

[alegria]

Fascinating article regarding the highly-organized public-relations campaign to introduce Caitlyn:  
The Story Behind Caitlyn Jenner’s Masterful Press Strategy

[GaT]

Fascinating article regarding the highly-organized public-relations campaign to introduce Caitlyn:  

The Story Behind Caitlyn Jenner’s Masterful Press Strategy

Thanks for the link, that was very interesting. The thing I found most interesting though was this:

 

Bissinger describes a meeting Jenner took with another reality production company early this year, a one-on-one a source says was arranged at the request of the children. They don’t trust Bunim/Murray to tell their dad’s story the right way, according to the Bissinger story, and have opted not to participate because of those fears. “With Bunim/Murray and E!, it’s been the opposite of inspiration,” Brandon Jenner told Bissinger.

So I guess that Kendall & Kylie agree with the older kids & don't trust Bunim/Murray either. I have to admit, I certainly wouldn't trust them, I think they only know how to produce schlock.

[millennium]

She's in her late sixties, posed on the front of a national magazine in an "outfit" that was basically underwear. "Advice"? I don't think there is a word in the English language that can describe what her, and the passel of fools she is related to, truly need. The plus side, the transgender issue is now out there for debate and discussion and that is a good thing for those who are truly transgender. I am tired of being PC about "her". Those who are truly transgender have and will still have a hard road and I acknowledge that. Bruce/Caitlyn is a famewhore using this issue to get attention and revenue. "She" does not look hot, she doesn't even look like a drag queen. She looks like a man dressed as woman. The emperor has no clothes and though YMMV, I am tired of this trashy family and their manufactured drama.

 

I'm not sure the plus side you mentioned is truly a plus side.   I suspect there will be a backlash against the media's attempt to force the transgender issue upon the public, especially because it's accompanied by a strong PC element that DARES you to say something negative about Jenner.

 

The transgender community was already making inroads without Jenner, raising awareness and facilitating integration into the mainstream in a gradual way.   All of that is gone now.   Due to Jenner's machinations ("the masterful press strategy"), the public has had the transgender issue jammed down its throat for the past month.   There's nowhere to turn without being confronted by the Jenner story.   Internet, newspapers, magazines, television, it has infiltrated every media outlet.   But the worst part of it is, it's being peddled with the implied message: "you better be okay with this."    We have already seen what happens to celebrities who dare utter an unsupportive word

 

Maybe the only thing that turns off people more than media oversaturation is the media telling them what they ought to think.   I would prefer people come to a gradual understanding and acceptance of transgender people on their own rather than as a result of a relentless media campaign.   Because PC acceptance is not true acceptance.    I think people who are PC'ed towards acceptance are more likely to become PO'ed, which may lead to a backlash and even increased bias and violence against transgendered people in the long run.

[Artsda]

 

So I guess that Kendall & Kylie agree with the older kids & don't trust Bunim/Murray either.

I don't think so, the article points out it's the biological first 4 with the issues. Brandon seems hypocritical considering he's been on KUWTK for seasons and joined up conveniently when he had an music career/album to promote.

 

This meeting the 4 set up and the insisting of Caitlyn to stick with the KUWTK team is interesting, kind of her own more choosing of sides. It's understandable that with this type of transition that Caitlyn would want the people behind the scenes (camera operators, lighting, etc...) to be all people she knew for the past 7 years and is comfortable with/trusted. As opposed to a bunch of strangers and new production people the 4 wanted. 

[thefog]

I'm not sure the plus side you mentioned is truly a plus side.   I suspect there will be a backlash against the media's attempt to force the transgender issue upon the public, especially because it's accompanied by a strong PC element that DARES you to say something negative about Jenner.

 

The transgender community was already making inroads without Jenner, raising awareness and facilitating integration into the mainstream in a gradual way.   All of that is gone now.   Due to Jenner's machinations ("the masterful press strategy"), the public has had the transgender issue jammed down its throat for the past month.   There's nowhere to turn without being confronted by the Jenner story.   Internet, newspapers, magazines, television, it has infiltrated every media outlet.   But the worst part of it is, it's being peddled with the implied message: "you better be okay with this."    We have already seen what happens to celebrities who dare utter an unsupportive word

 

Maybe the only thing that turns off people more than media oversaturation is the media telling them what they ought to think.   I would prefer people come to a gradual understanding and acceptance of transgender people on their own rather than as a result of a relentless media campaign.   Because PC acceptance is not true acceptance.    I think people who are PC'ed towards acceptance are more likely to become PO'ed, which may lead to a backlash and even increased bias and violence against transgendered people in the long run.

The gradual understanding and acceptance  of transgender people has come way too slow, IMO.  This issue has been in the dark for too long.  No one is forced to believe anything.  Everyone has choices.  No one is forced to pay attention to the media coverage. 

 

I totally disagree that "people who are PC'ed will likely become PO'ed, leading to backlash, bias, violence, etc."   IMO, that sounds more like of an attempt to create unnecessary fear in hopes of silencing people.

 

If there is backlash, it's going to come from those who hate to begin with.  And that hate, like all discrimination and prejudices, is born out of ignorance and fear.

[millennium]

The gradual understanding and acceptance  of transgender people has come way too slow, IMO.  This issue has been in the dark for too long.  No one is forced to believe anything.  Everyone has choices.  No one is forced to pay attention to the media coverage. 

 

 

It's so in-your-face, one can't help but see it.  It's one headline after another, one new story after another.   It's like osmosis.   Before long, you know most of the story even if you've made every attempt to avoid it. 

 

As for understanding and acceptance coming too slow, YMMV.   In recent years I've seen LGBT equal employment provisions written into the hiring policies of some of America's largest corporations; a transgender person was made a Presidential appointee, transsexuals are getting prominent roles in the entertainment industry; one state after another is adopting equal access laws giving transgender people legal access to use bathrooms of the gender they identify with ...  Certainly change isn't coming overnight, but this is America, where we're still trying to work out understanding and acceptance between blacks and whites after 150 years -- .  and we still haven't gotten it right.   Taken in perspective, I'd say recent transgender advances are nothing to scoff at.  

 

 

I totally disagree that "people who are PC'ed will likely become PO'ed, leading to backlash, bias, violence, etc."   IMO, that sounds more like of an attempt to create unnecessary fear in hopes of silencing people.

 

 I think that's unfair.   But this week in America, anybody who doesn't hail the new Jenner as the second coming of Jesus Christ is immediately suspect.   It doesn't matter that the transgender community itself has a lot of trepidation about the effect of all this.   The only guaranteed safe response to the Jenner story is one that contains buzzwords like "beautiful" and "courageous" or cliche sentiments like "I'm glad she's finally free."

 

I can't with that, not when the number one concern running through my mind is "I hope Jenner doesn't fuck it up for everybody else."

 

 

If there is backlash, it's going to come from those who hate to begin with.  And that hate, like all discrimination and prejudices, is born out of ignorance and fear.

 

I think there are more people who are indifferent to the transgendered than who hate them -- folks who go through life minding their own business, taking care of themselves and their families, whose attitude is "live and let live."  They may not think about transgender people at all, either good nor bad.   Now, though, thanks to the media blitz, it's in their faces wherever they turn.   It's hard to be indifferent now.    I hate the idea that these people may now form their first opinions about transgendered people based on the greed-based, publicity-driven antics of Bruce Jenner and the Kardashians.  

 

It's funny, but once upon a time, this nation was indifferent to the Kardashians, too.    Then the Kardashians used the battering ram of the media to force their way into everybody's living room, much as Jenner is doing now.   You couldn't avoid them, even if you tried, even if you never watched a single episode of their show, that was the degree of oversaturation.   Tell me, what impression have the Kardashians left upon the public?  A positive one?  Would you say the public's opinion of the Kardashians is one of respect and admiration?

 

The transgender community deserves better than to become the latest Kardashian.

Edited June 7, 2015 by millennium

[jonesingjay]

No one is forced to pay attention to the media coverage. 

 

I for one am just loving all of the media coverage. Give me more, Caitlyn! LOL. I'm looking forward to her reality show. I want to see her out and about, living her life and being as much of a public figure as she pleases. I'm not sure how long all of the coverage can last, but I'll enjoy it.

[thefog]

It's so in-your-face, one can't help but see it.  It's one headline after another, one new story after another.   It's like osmosis.   Before long, you know most of the story even if you've made every attempt to avoid it. 

 

As for understanding and acceptance coming too slow, YMMV.   In recent years I've seen LGBT equal employment provisions written into the hiring policies of some of America's largest corporations; a transgender person was made a Presidential appointee, transsexuals are getting prominent roles in the entertainment industry; one state after another is adopting equal access laws giving transgender people legal access to use bathrooms of the gender they identify with ...  Certainly change isn't coming overnight, but this is America, where we're still trying to work out understanding and acceptance between blacks and whites after 150 years -- .  and we still haven't gotten it right.   Taken in perspective, I'd say recent transgender advances are nothing to scoff at.  

 

 

 

 I think that's unfair.   But this week in America, anybody who doesn't hail the new Jenner as the second coming of Jesus Christ is immediately suspect.   It doesn't matter that the transgender community itself has a lot of trepidation about the effect of all this.   The only guaranteed safe response to the Jenner story is one that contains buzzwords like "beautiful" and "courageous" or cliche sentiments like "I'm glad she's finally free."

 

I can't with that, not when the number one concern running through my mind is "I hope Jenner doesn't fuck it up for everybody else."

 

 

 

I think there are more people who are indifferent to the transgendered than who hate them -- folks who go through life minding their own business, taking care of themselves and their families, whose attitude is "live and let live."  They may not think about transgender people at all, either good nor bad.   Now, though, thanks to the media blitz, it's in their faces wherever they turn.   It's hard to be indifferent now.    I hate the idea that these people may now form their first opinions about transgendered people based on the greed-based, publicity-driven antics of Bruce Jenner and the Kardashians.  

 

It's funny, but once upon a time, this nation was indifferent to the Kardashians, too.    Then the Kardashians used the battering ram of the media to force their way into everybody's living room, much as Jenner is doing now.   You couldn't avoid them, even if you tried, even if you never watched a single episode of their show, that was the degree of oversaturation.   Tell me, what impression have the Kardashians left upon the public?  A positive one?  Would you say the public's opinion of the Kardashians is one of respect and admiration?

 

The transgender community deserves better than to become the latest Kardashian.

IMO, you are giving the K's, way more power and influence than they have.  This nation does not resolve around them.  In as far as Caitlyn, there is also a generation that connects her with her Olympic glory days - that of the great American hero; which is a big part of this story. 

I also think you are way under estimating the intelligence of the general public.  People are smart enough to figure things out for themselves.  And if there are people who are so traumatized by people they do not know, except for seeing on a TV show, they really have way deeper issues.

As someone who isn't even a fan of this family, they are nowhere as dangerous as the crimes committed by the Duggar family.

[Kromm]

The transgender community was already making inroads without Jenner, raising awareness and facilitating integration into the mainstream in a gradual way.   All of that is gone now.   Due to Jenner's machinations ("the masterful press strategy"), the public has had the transgender issue jammed down its throat for the past month.   There's nowhere to turn without being confronted by the Jenner story.

Right.  Arguably the flipside of "Jenner has brought this issue to so many new places" is "isn't it presumptive acting like the transgender community needed 'rescue' by the Kardashian family?"

 

IMO, you are giving the K's, way more power and influence than they have.  This nation does not resolve around them.  In as far as Caitlyn, there is also a generation that connects her with her Olympic glory days - that of the great American hero; which is a big part of this story.

On the face of it that sounds great, but the reality of the situation is that the Kardashian are front and center in all of this. People connecting to pre-K Bruce loses almost all of it's meaning when the only way to connect to Caitlyn (the current incarnation) is through the lens of being a Kardashian--surrounded by them, talking about them, being talked about them, and acting like them. Some might say it's not fair to judge Caitlyn by them, but it's inevitable and unavoidable if we're actually being realistic. Edited June 7, 2015 by Kromm

[JBC344]

IMO, you are giving the K's, way more power and influence than they have.  This nation does not resolve around them.  In as far as Caitlyn, there is also a generation that connects her with her Olympic glory days - that of the great American hero; which is a big part of this story. 

I also think you are way under estimating the intelligence of the general public.  People are smart enough to figure things out for themselves.  And if there are people who are so traumatized by people they do not know, except for seeing on a TV show, they really have way deeper issues.

As someone who isn't even a fan of this family, they are nowhere as dangerous as the crimes committed by the Duggar family.

Amen, the way people go on and on about the Kardashians, you would think they were talking about the Manson's. 

 

To me it is like people who genuinely wonder why they are famous?  They are popular, have an influence, and people consume the content that they put out.  They watch their shows, buy their products, and talk about them on message boards.

 

I would like to cling to the idea that for as much as the Kardashians may be addicted to fame.  If more people are being exposed to and positive about the acceptance of those who are transgendered, then more power to them.  It's like if the Kardashians found a cure for cancer, there will be a subset of the population who would reject it just cause it came from them. 

[Kromm]

Amen, the way people go on and on about the Kardashians, you would think they were talking about the Manson's. 

 

To me it is like people who genuinely wonder why they are famous?  They are popular, have an influence, and people consume the content that they put out.  They watch their shows, buy their products, and talk about them on message boards.

 

I would like to cling to the idea that for as much as the Kardashians may be addicted to fame.  If more people are being exposed to and positive about the acceptance of those who are transgendered, then more power to them.  It's like if the Kardashians found a cure for cancer, there will be a subset of the population who would reject it just cause it came from them. 

Okay, that's going a bit too far.  Because yes, there'd be such a subset, but it wouldn't be because they were Kardashians, it would be because it's human nature for there to ALWAYS be a fringe element to poke, or at the worst extreme troll.

 

But lets not make the vast mistake of characterizing every person who questions the Kardashians as trolls.  That kind of logic shuts down and dismisses en masse a lot of legitimate opinions.

 

Realistically we're talking about the Kardashians because they've become enmeshed, beyond our control, in this story.  You can't have it both ways--condemning people for talking about the Kardashians as part of this story, while talking about how we're reacting to the Kardashians being part of this story.  As to why they're famous in the first place?  I can't say I personally understand it--I can't or won't ever willingly watch any of their TV shows--but that's reality TV as a whole these days.  Wall to wall unlikeable people we likely wouldn't stand for in real life, but that the public wants to see paraded around on screen for our amusement. But when you commingle those people with serious issues like Transgender acceptance in society?  It can't all be treated as the same thing--because we all know that reality TV is wall to wall lies, and lying isn't going to be the basis of any real acceptance of Transgender people.  So of COURSE people are bitching about the Kardashians being part of this, even while we as a society previously "voted" for their fame with our remote controls.  Doing so doesn't make them our Kings and Queens.  It makes them our Jesters.

[DollEyes]

Re the Arthur Ashe Courage Award, I'm among those who think that the late Lauren Hill deserves it much more than Caitlyn because unlike Caitlyn, Lauren used her fame to help others, not just herself, until the day she died. Caitlyn may get more attention than Lauren, but attention isn't respect. Now that Bruce is Caitlyn, she'll strike while the iron's hot, hence the potential endorsement deals, potential book deals, motivational speeches and her possibly being a judge at this year's "Miss USA" pageant. However, since Caitlyn claims that she wants to help the transgender community, she could start by dedicating time and money to causes that help them or start a foundation dedicated to helping trans people get the medical, mental, financial and/or legal help they'll need. Caitlyn should realize just how lucky she is. The vast majority of trans people don't have the attention and the resources nor, in the case of many trans women, frankly, the looks that she does. Caitlyn's talked the talk about helping the trans community; it's time she walked the walk.

 

 

  The difference is that these people aren't as well known to the general public. Caitlyn has also the history of being one of the greatest Olympians ever and the image of the ultimate macho athlete, the All-American hero.

 

The past can't be undone or changed. All she can do is try and correct it by moving forward, which she is trying to do. Does not do anyone any good to hold on to past mistakes, regrets, grudges.

 

  I respectfully disagree. For one thing, Caitlyn Jenner's not the only celebrity trans person with a great backstory. Chaz Bono was born as Chastity Bono, the daughter of Sonny & Cher Bono, who at one point, not only had one of the biggest variety shows on TV, after they divorced, Sonny became a Congressman while Cher became a pop-culture icon, an Oscar-winning actress and a showbiz legend. Chastity appeared at the end of every episode of The Sonny & Cher Show, making her as famous as her parents. However, given Cher's celebrity and status in the gay community, it was widely assumed that she would totally and immediately accept Chaz's transition, but she didn't. Fortunately, Cher came around, but it wasn't easy, for her nor Chaz. Then there's Laverne Cox, who's not only the Emmy-nominated star of Orange Is the New Black, she's the first transgender woman to appear on the cover of Time. As for the rest I mentioned, that's what Google's for.

 

 Regarding the past, while it can't be changed, it still matters. Forgetting is pointless. Caitlyn was so obsessed with living a lie that her first four children suffered because of it. Worse, Caitlyn doted on her other family at their expense. By her own admission, Caitlyn neglected her first four kids and IMO they have every right to resent her for it. Like the saying goes, "Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it."

[iwasish]

Amen, the way people go on and on about the Kardashians, you would think they were talking about the Manson's.

To me it is like people who genuinely wonder why they are famous? They are popular, have an influence, and people consume the content that they put out. They watch their shows, buy their products, and talk about them on message boards.

I would like to cling to the idea that for as much as the Kardashians may be addicted to fame. If more people are being exposed to and positive about the acceptance of those who are transgendered, then more power to them. It's like if the Kardashians found a cure for cancer, there will be a subset of the population who would reject it just cause it came from them.

A Kardashian cancer cure? We know that ain't happening.

[OnceSane]

This thread is to discuss Caitlyn Jenner. Please be sure she is the focus of your posts rather than the Kardashians, the transgender community, or who deserved the Arthur Ashe award over her. I expect some discussion about those topics, but the thread has veered off-topic more than once. Thanks.

[JBC344]

Okay, that's going a bit too far.  Because yes, there'd be such a subset, but it wouldn't be because they were Kardashians, it would be because it's human nature for there to ALWAYS be a fringe element to poke, or at the worst extreme troll.

 

But lets not make the vast mistake of characterizing every person who questions the Kardashians as trolls.  That kind of logic shuts down and dismisses en masse a lot of legitimate opinions.

 

Realistically we're talking about the Kardashians because they've become enmeshed, beyond our control, in this story.  You can't have it both ways--condemning people for talking about the Kardashians as part of this story, while talking about how we're reacting to the Kardashians being part of this story.  As to why they're famous in the first place?  I can't say I personally understand it--I can't or won't ever willingly watch any of their TV shows--but that's reality TV as a whole these days.  Wall to wall unlikeable people we likely wouldn't stand for in real life, but that the public wants to see paraded around on screen for our amusement. But when you commingle those people with serious issues like Transgender acceptance in society?  It can't all be treated as the same thing--because we all know that reality TV is wall to wall lies, and lying isn't going to be the basis of any real acceptance of Transgender people.  So of COURSE people are bitching about the Kardashians being part of this, even while we as a society previously "voted" for their fame with our remote controls.  Doing so doesn't make them our Kings and Queens.  It makes them our Jesters.

Please don't misunderstand me I have not classified anyone here as a "troll".  That is not my nature or personality, I also contribute to this message board and it would be hypocritical of me.  My point above is in making the distinction and being objective to certain things. 

 

For example, I don't agree with nor do I consume a lot of the content that the Kardashians put out, but I also don't pretend that I don't know why they are famous.  I can logically make the connection that they have a huge fan base and that companies make a lot of money off of them.  Even if I don't agree with what they do.

 

I also have no interest in MMA fighting but I don't pretend to know why its so popular.  That was my point above. 

 

If Caitlyn having her story front and center can put out something positive, than hey give them the credit.  You can still pay someone a compliment without joining their "team".

Edited June 7, 2015 by JBC344

[thefog]

I respectfully disagree. For one thing, Caitlyn Jenner's not the only celebrity trans person with a great backstory. Chaz Bono was born as Chastity Bono, the daughter of Sonny & Cher Bono, who at one point, not only had one of the biggest variety shows on TV, after they divorced, Sonny became a Congressman while Cher became a pop-culture icon, an Oscar-winning actress and a showbiz legend. Chastity appeared at the end of every episode of The Sonny & Cher Show, making her as famous as her parents. However, given Cher's celebrity and status in the gay community, it was widely assumed that she would totally and immediately accept Chaz's transition, but she didn't. Fortunately, Cher came around, but it wasn't easy, for her nor Chaz. Then there's Laverne Cox, who's not only the Emmy-nominated star of Orange Is the New Black, she's the first transgender woman to appear on the cover of Time. As for the rest I mentioned, that's what Google's for.

 

 Regarding the past, while it can't be changed, it still matters. Forgetting is pointless. Caitlyn was so obsessed with living a lie that her first four children suffered because of it. Worse, Caitlyn doted on her other family at their expense. By her own admission, Caitlyn neglected her first four kids and IMO they have every right to resent her for it. Like the saying goes, "Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it."

Chazz Bono's fame was solely due to his parents.  Not him.   Laverne Cox is not a house hold name.  Not to take anything away from them, but there is a vast difference with public recognition between them and Caitlyn Jenner. 

Caitlyn already apologized and regretted what happened with his 1st four children.  All she can do is build a better relationship moving forward.  They can either accept it or not.  The past cannot be changed.

Edited June 7, 2015 by escape

[thefog]

Right.  Arguably the flipside of "Jenner has brought this issue to so many new places" is "isn't it presumptive acting like the transgender community needed 'rescue' by the Kardashian family?"

 

On the face of it that sounds great, but the reality of the situation is that the Kardashian are front and center in all of this. People connecting to pre-K Bruce loses almost all of it's meaning when the only way to connect to Caitlyn (the current incarnation) is through the lens of being a Kardashian--surrounded by them, talking about them, being talked about them, and acting like them. Some might say it's not fair to judge Caitlyn by them, but it's inevitable and unavoidable if we're actually being realistic.

But they are not at the center of the story.  Caitlyn continues to be.  For example,  I saw a FOX roundtable this morning.  Very conservative views.  There was no mentioned about the K family at all.

[Snarryfan]

Chaz Bono is not equitable because he was known as a child of famous people rather than a public figure in his own right. And while it may not be PC to say--the transitioning of an out butch lesbian to a man did not garner the same sort of coverage because it a) played it incorrect stereotypes about lesbians; b) there has been a noticeable issue in the lesbian community of people coming out as trans men, to the point where it has caused a rupture within the queer community (Google Michigan Womyn's Festival.) 

 

Laverne Cox became famous after her transition, she did not come out as trans and then transition in the public eye.  The most apt comparison to Caitlyn Jenner would be the transition of Lana Wachowski whose gender identity was the subject of speculation for many years and she finally came out as a trans women a few years ago (when Cloud Atlas premiered). However, the Wachowski's are notoriously press-shy and do not give interviews--much of the speculation was due to Lana's marital issues and participation in the fetish community.

 

Caitlyn Jenner's openness has the potential to be a paradigm shift because she has been known to so many generations. The Greatest Generation and Baby Boomers knew her as the Olympic Hero who took down the Soviets. Gen X knew her from that, the Kardashian show, and arguably Can't Stop the Music if they are into cult culture, and Millennials know her from the Kardashian show. For example, I have tried to explain transgender identity to my mother for years (my specialization was gay male sexual culture and queer pop culture in grad school) she never got it.  Now with Caitlyn Jenner--it makes more sense for her because Caitlyn Jenner gives voice to trans identity to older people in a way that I think some trans groups have struggled with.

 

As for Jenner being responsible for highlighting the racial, ethnic, and class discrimination faced by trans people of color--that is unfair and speaks to the schism that exists within all minority communities. Feminist groups have issues because the experiences of white women do not correspond to those of women of color; gay rights organizations have loooong been criticized for addressing white normative gay male issues; the NAACP is critiqued for not addressing the needs of the black gay community, and on and on and on.

 

I hope that every Republican candidate gets asked "which bathroom should Caitlyn Jenner use?"  I want their narrow bigoted views exposed to the world so everyone can understand that you don't need to go see Jurassic World to see dinosaurs roam the earth.

 

 

[millennium]

As for Jenner being responsible for highlighting the racial, ethnic, and class discrimination faced by trans people of color--that is unfair and speaks to the schism that exists within all minority communities. Feminist groups have issues because the experiences of white women do not correspond to those of women of color; gay rights organizations have loooong been criticized for addressing white normative gay male issues; the NAACP is critiqued for not addressing the needs of the black gay community, and on and on and on.

 

 

It's a good post, but based on my strong belief that the person in question is a self-absorbed famewhore, the only thing I expect to see highlighted is Jenner's hair.

 

 

I hope that every Republican candidate gets asked "which bathroom should Caitlyn Jenner use?"  I want their narrow bigoted views exposed to the world so everyone can understand that you don't need to go see Jurassic World to see dinosaurs roam the earth.

 

I take your point, but I resent that Jenner's name is inserted into that question.   It's not like he's Malala Yousafzai, who drew the world's attention to her cause -- fighting for women's rights in Pakistan -- after being punitively shot by the Taliban.   Jenner bought his way into the spotlight with money he earned promoting himself as an Olympic superman, the ultimate macho image.   Clearly that investment paid off, because now he's reaping a big payday on all the questions society currently has about the transgendered -- except those being asked by the transgender community itself.

Edited June 8, 2015 by millennium

[ms.o]

Burt competed in the XGames this weekend and he was getting a lot of Instagram love from Brody and even more love from Brody's mom. I heard before that the first two wives made sure the older four stayed close. I hope Caitlyn appreciates that. Honestly, the four kids she didn't raise seem to have more stability then the ones she did.*

* I know many wld consider that debatable about Brody :).

[mywinston]

I think it's no big deal to use "cis-gendered" as an opposite to trans-gendered in a specific conversation on the subject.  I mean it's really no different than "heterosexual" used in context when discussing the concept of homosexuality.

 

And take that further.  Do you really find yourself using the phrase "heterosexual" in any other circumstance?  Do you CALL yourself that in any conversation that isn't about your sexual preference? I doubt it. Well this is the same, except about gender identification rather than sexuality.

 

With one exception. As we've already seen in this thread, like any term it can be used as an insult. Homosexual, heterosexual, transgender, cisgender---they've all been used that way on occasion.  Any term can be turned that way if the proper level of scorn is applied.

 

Reminds me of that episode of South Park where Cartman puts a bow in his hair and calls himself Erica so he can get a special transgender bathroom for himself only. Eventually everyone catches on and starts doing it too, and it becomes all the rage, except Stan just thinks it's stupid. So they start being intolerant of him and calling him a cissy. "He's cisginger! He's so cis he wears a jockstrap to bed at night!"

[Jellybeans]

I love her inner and outer Hollywood bitch. It's not for me, but I think she looks great.

[jonesingjay]

I love her inner and outer Hollywood bitch. It's not for me, but I think she looks great.

 

 

I get a kick out of it. I really hope she's enjoying herself. 

[JBC344]

Burt competed in the XGames this weekend and he was getting a lot of Instagram love from Brody and even more love from Brody's mom. I heard before that the first two wives made sure the older four stayed close. I hope Caitlyn appreciates that. Honestly, the four kids she didn't raise seem to have more stability then the ones she did.*

* I know many wld consider that debatable about Brody :).

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that.  I'm sure Casey seems pretty stable and a nice level headed young woman. Burt seems like an ok guy, but who really knows. I would say Brody and Brandon are more Kardashian than people would like to believe. 

 

I actually really like Brody and Brandon, mostly because I don't take them too seriously, but I would say that they are far more like Kim, Kris, and Khloe than Casey.