Past Plots Discussion: Whatever Happened To...

[Pearson80]

21 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

Which good girl isn't having pleasurable sex?  Sarah practically jumps Xander's bones every time she sees him. Ciara is apparently no wallflower when it comes to having sex with Ben. Other than Lani being in love with Kristen, she doesn't seem dissatisfied with her love life with Eli.

And I don't think this commercial is a good example of a good girl liking sex.   Jennifer was still a virgin.  They hadn't had sex yet. They wouldn't have sex until July of that year.  At this point, Jack is trying to avoid being close to her because he didn't feel worthy of her.  She keeps dismissing his protests.

I won't lie. I love the scene but I also won't pretend it's not hella problematic. 

I was talking about the writing  of heroines back then. Marlena, Hope Melissa Kayla Jennifer Adrienne all were heroines who had healthy sex lives with their partners.. They did not have sex just for procreation.. 

Jennifer and Jack consummated their relationship during the cruise of deception and Jennifer was the one who initiated the sex in the cave. Bo and Hope walked in on them after they had done the deed. It was a funny scene between the four of them.  I had no idea what was going to happen to Hope, looking back it seemed like the calm before the storm..

Edited March 29, 2021 by Pearson80

[Irlandesa]

13 minutes ago, Pearson80 said:

They did not have sex just for procreation.. 

Neither do the heroines today...unless they need a baby.  Same as back then.

[CanaryFan98]

3 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Not sure this is the proper forum for this, but someone posted an old Jack/Jennifer promo from 1990. I had forgotten how spunky and fun Jennifer once was. Hard to believe she turned into such a drip.

 

 

The writing was better back then but somewhere along the way soaps didn't know how to write characters beyond their younger years. It seems they only think younger characters can be fun and vibrant however people age and change yet don't know how to retain that same joy with the characters as they get older.

I notice people tend to find Kayla, Hope, Jennifer stuffy now compared to back then sure they had better storylines but these characters became mothers and grandmothers there was going to be a change. For some reason writers lost interest because they aged and wanted more stability while the men could do whatever they wanted without consequence which the writers have no problem writing for. 

They could transition Alice into this type of role but the others not nearly as effective. 

[Pearson80]

23 hours ago, CanaryFan98 said:

The writing was better back then but somewhere along the way soaps didn't know how to write characters beyond their younger years. It seems they only think younger characters can be fun and vibrant however people age and change yet don't know how to retain that same joy with the characters as they get older.

I notice people tend to find Kayla, Hope, Jennifer stuffy now compared to back then sure they had better storylines but these characters became mothers and grandmothers there was going to be a change. For some reason writers lost interest because they aged and wanted more stability while the men could do whatever they wanted without consequence which the writers have no problem writing for. 

They could transition Alice into this type of role but the others not nearly as effective. 

They had Kayla remain a celibate for  16 years when Steve was dead and he was able to live a full life as Nick with Ava and they had a child.. I still hate that Kayla never had a man who loved her without bringing his baggage into her life. Kayla's fantasies about Steve remain some of my favorite scenes of Kayla ever.. She was so daring  full of life and was able to be her true self without judgements..

Edited March 30, 2021 by Pearson80

[CanaryFan98]

20 hours ago, Pearson80 said:

They had Kayla remain a celibate for  16 years when Steve was dead and he was able to live a full life as Nick with Ava and they had a child.. I still hate that Kayla never had a man who loved her without bringing his baggage into her life. Kayla's fantasies about Steve remain some of my favorite scenes of Kayla ever.. She was so daring  full of life and was able to be her true self without judgements..

Well I guess there was Justin I mean it was a rebound but he did put Kayla first even if they were meh as a couple. 

I do agree its absurd Kayla never even attempted to get remarried once. I mean I get having to raise Stephanie alone that she wouldn't be the type to bring random men around her daughter. However I always thought she would've tried to move on and have another kid. I think it would've been a better story had Kayla remarried ended up with another kid then Ava who's the ex of Kayla's new husband finds Steve and brings him back into Kayla's life. Then Steve/Kayla would have to rediscover each other in their current state however that's too character driven for this show.

[Pearson80]

1 hour ago, CanaryFan98 said:

Well I guess there was Justin I mean it was a rebound but he did put Kayla first even if they were meh as a couple. 

I do agree its absurd Kayla never even attempted to get remarried once. I mean I get having to raise Stephanie alone that she wouldn't be the type to bring random men around her daughter. However I always thought she would've tried to move on and have another kid. I think it would've been a better story had Kayla remarried ended up with another kid then Ava who's the ex of Kayla's new husband finds Steve and brings him back into Kayla's life. Then Steve/Kayla would have to rediscover each other in their current state however that's too character driven for this show.

The show is not interested in Kayla outside of her romance with Steve. All the show' supercouples suffer from this with the exception of Kim/Shane and Roman/Marlena where both couples were allowed to have relationships with others.  I include John as Roman in this because he was written as being Roman until it was retcon in 1991..

The show is not interested in Jack outside of his romance with Jennifer.  Jack was always more interesting to me and so many things could have been done with him over the years with Matthew in the role.  

The show is not interested in Hope outside of her romance with Bo.  Bo was allowed to have meaningful relationships with other women. Hope only got psychos.  Why couldn't Hope as an amnesiac fall in love with another guy during her missing years. Instead she was stupid Princess Gina and was fucking RoboJohn are you kidding me!

I never cared for Hope and Aiden.. I never trusted him and him becoming a psycho was a natural progression for me. I never believed that Chase killed his mother, I think he killed her and blamed it on his young son to save his own hide,

Edited March 31, 2021 by Pearson80

[CanaryFan98]

It always bothered me that Bo never had any real competition when it came to Hope but she had to deal with Carly and Billie even after those relationships ended. While Hope's others seemed to fall off the face of the Earth never to be seen or heard from again except Rafe go figure.

I do think Ron sees Jack more independently than other writers the show has had but unfortunately its not that great. Unlike Bo, they never let Jack exist beyond Jennifer on screen so it doesn't seem nearly as organic etc. Course Bo had writers that were better and cared back then I don't think he'd be good now either.

I agree they could've done a lot more with him he could've gone dark with Jennifer gone or had to deal with being a single parent while JJ and Abby kept getting into bad situations. I would've been interested to have seen JJ confront Jack when he found out about the rape (not years later when he was amnesiac) or Jack find out about EJ/Abigail they could've referenced Jack warning Abigail years ago about staying away from EJ(she had a teen crush on him)... Jack vs Ben etc

Soap writers no longer care about genre and its reflected in its final product. I find that rather sad because this all could've been prevented.

 

[Pearson80]

15 minutes ago, CanaryFan98 said:

It always bothered me that Bo never had any real competition when it came to Hope but she had to deal with Carly and Billie even after those relationships ended. While Hope's others seemed to fall off the face of the Earth never to be seen or heard from again except Rafe go figure.

I do think Ron sees Jack more independently than other writers the show has had but unfortunately its not that great. Unlike Bo, they never let Jack exist beyond Jennifer on screen so it doesn't seem nearly as organic etc. Course Bo had writers that were better and cared back then I don't think he'd be good now either.

I agree they could've done a lot more with him he could've gone dark with Jennifer gone or had to deal with being a single parent while JJ and Abby kept getting into bad situations. I would've been interested to have seen JJ confront Jack when he found out about the rape (not years later when he was amnesiac) or Jack find out about EJ/Abigail they could've referenced Jack warning Abigail years ago about staying away from EJ(she had a teen crush on him)... Jack vs Ben etc

Soap writers no longer care about genre and its reflected in its final product. I find that rather sad because this all could've been prevented.

 

Jack with Matthew in the role could have gone to higher places with good writers who appreciated him in all of his complex glory.  JER said that he hated Jack and saw nothing of value in Jack and his portrayer Matthew and he turned him into a nondescript milquetoast generic hero as Mark Valley. Jack and Jennifer should have dealt with Abigail's illness together. Jack and Jennifer never needed interlopers to make them interesting that is how good they were defined as individuals.

[WendyCR72]

3 hours ago, CanaryFan98 said:

I do think Ron sees Jack more independently than other writers the show has had but unfortunately its not that great. Unlike Bo, they never let Jack exist beyond Jennifer on screen so it doesn't seem nearly as organic etc. Course Bo had writers that were better and cared back then I don't think he'd be good now either.

I think you answered your own question regarding post-Bo Hope versus post-Hope Bo. Different eras, much better writing and characterization for the latter.

[4evaQuez]

12 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

I think you answered your own question regarding post-Bo Hope versus post-Hope Bo. Different eras, much better writing and characterization for the latter.

I agree. I also think part of the reason Hope's pairing failed outside of Bo is because Bo was around and alive for a lot of them. The show seemed oddly invested in a John/Hope pairing during multiple writing regimes. The show seemed committed to a Hope/Patrick pairing until fans revolted and the show retconned Ciara's paternity. Hope/Justin was actually explored but dropped without much fanfare. Hope/Aidan, I'm not sure why the show torpedoed but they seemed relatively successful. Hope/Rafe, I think the show was truly invested in, but they started them off on the wrong foot with the Stefano killing. I think the show was invested in a Hope/not Bo pairing, but these pairings just did not take off for one reason or another.

[CanaryFan98]

18 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

I think you answered your own question regarding post-Bo Hope versus post-Hope Bo. Different eras, much better writing and characterization for the latter.

Yes but the show had no interest in Hope beyond Bo back in the day either which is why after him she's so lost... same with Kayla also fans tend to be more accepting of a the male counterpart moving on over the female one who should mourn forever apparently...

Marlena and Sami didn't have this problem the show let them move onto multiple pairings which were a hit with the audience and also a large part of their staying power with the audience as individual characters.

[CanaryFan98]

 

I was trying to find clips of this when the whole Gwen reveal happened but here they are. This was so much better but since this is a past plot its better posted here.

[Pearson80]

I absolutely adored Kate and Victor back in the day because they were made for each other.  A dark grey power couple and together they should have caused mayhem while loving each other no matter what. Like every couple on this show, they had horrific writing that ruined any chance of them getting back together. 

Edited April 12, 2021 by Pearson80

[CanaryFan98]

Same I used to like Victor/Kate together back in the day as I always felt that a scheming wife was best suited for him than a nice one.

[tribeca]

The actor who played Laura was very breathy.  Jennifer looked really pretty in that clip. 
also 
 

Just wondering when did Theo and Ciara date and why did they break up ?

[nilyank]

10 minutes ago, tribeca said:

Just wondering when did Theo and Ciara date and why did they break up ?

I don't think that they dated. He had a huge crush on her, she knew it, but she was more interested in Chad. Theo and Claire grew close and got together. Meanwhile Chad didn't want Ciara so she eventually went back looking for Theo but he was now involved with Claire 

[CanaryFan98]

20 hours ago, nilyank said:

I don't think that they dated. He had a huge crush on her, she knew it, but she was more interested in Chad. Theo and Claire grew close and got together. Meanwhile Chad didn't want Ciara so she eventually went back looking for Theo but he was now involved with Claire 

Correct which is why I roll my eyes if I read online about how Theo was Ciara's first love? Where? They were childhood friends but she kept him in the friendzone until he expressed an interest in Claire(who were each others first loves)and she tried to mess that up as well with that letter she wrote to Theo knowing he was with Claire.

[Chellfairy]

On 4/12/2021 at 4:56 PM, Pearson80 said:

I absolutely adored Kate and Victor back in the day because they were made for each other.  A dark grey power couple and together they should have caused mayhem while loving each other no matter what. Like every couple on this show, they had horrific writing that ruined any chance of them getting back together. 

Loved Kate and Victor!! 
kept rooting for them to get back together during the “teen scene” in the late 90’s

Edited April 14, 2021 by Chellfairy

[Pearson80]

On 4/13/2021 at 8:10 PM, Chellfairy said:

Loved Kate and Victor!! 
kept rooting for them to get back together during the “teen scene” in the late 90’s

Same here. Notice how unmoored  and without purpose Kate has been for years since her separation from Victor.. She became a caricature who beds every man she meets.  She was such a powerhouse Alpha female during her Victor years.  

[CanaryFan98]

Yep after Victor it was the beginning of the end for Kate. Looking back I wonder what Victor saw in her if you look at this version of the character that is.

All this time and she's shown no growth or humanity... I could accept Kate being a maneater if they just had her own it they don't though they say she's in love with these guys and most of the time I don't buy it. 

Also its laughable how she is the big boss lady but instead of building her own company they have her try and take everyone else's. 

[tribeca]

Where is pocket now ?  Any chance he will show up In Salem soon ?   Maybe he can date Claire. 

[nilyank]

1 hour ago, tribeca said:

Where is pocket now ?  Any chance he will show up In Salem soon ?   Maybe he can date Claire. 

Tyler was adopted  by some family but I always that was a stupid way to get rid of child that new writers didn't want to write about.

I never understood why Mimi didn't want to keep the child when she was told that she could not have children.

I never understood why Victor or Kate didn't ignore Philip choice to sever his parental rights and grab their grandson to raise for themselves.

[DaphneCat]

1 hour ago, nilyank said:

Tyler was adopted  by some family but I always that was a stupid way to get rid of child that new writers didn't want to write about.

I never understood why Mimi didn't want to keep the child when she was told that she could not have children.

I never understood why Victor or Kate didn't ignore Philip choice to sever his parental rights and grab their grandson to raise for themselves.

Especially since they had that stupid plot where Philip tried to kidnap Claire.  He throws away is own child so he can kidnap someone else's?

[CanaryFan98]

Tyler is in Indianapolis (which I found funny they would use this city but I digress) with his adopted family.

It does seems stupid why Phillip/Mimi didn't want this kid given their past histories with children but they didn't participate in the creation of this child either.  DNA doesn't always equal family. I mean Phillip raised Claire and loved her before he found out she wasn't his and still cares about her on some level despite only being her uncle and not her father. 

The show should've just killed off the character if they didn't want to write for them. If they wanted to write for them down the road say the kid's death was faked or something. Not hard to write.

19 hours ago, tribeca said:

Where is pocket now ?  Any chance he will show up In Salem soon ?   Maybe he can date Claire. 

Nope they're related as Phillip is Shawn's uncle which makes Claire his great niece.

[tribeca]

Poor Claire she is related to everyone.  

[CanaryFan98]

Well the guys Claire goes for end up wanting Ciara or are crazy or both. 

The only options Claire has are Tripp and Ben or any Dimera male not naamed Thomas or Johnny.

 

[boes]

1 hour ago, CanaryFan98 said:

Well the guys Claire goes for end up wanting Ciara or are crazy or both. 

The only options Claire has are Tripp and Ben or any Dimera male not naamed Thomas or Johnny.

 

Uh oh! Anna in a romantic tug of war with Claire over Tony....

[Rafael]

On 12/13/2020 at 8:34 PM, Pearson80 said:

Exactly!  Anjelica was complex and there are so many things that Ron could have done with her.  Anjelica willingly gave up custody of her son Alex to Justin and Adrienne because she loved him enough to realize that they could give  him the stability that she could not.. I could see Anjelica trying to sabotage Adrienne and Jennifer's endeavor to restart Jack's old newspaper, perhaps, Alexander finds out about her schemes and he cuts all ties to her pushing her to seek revenge via JJ because she blames Jennifer the most.  I could see her pushing Jack to go into politics to Jennifer's chagrin.  I could even envision a scenario where Anjelica and Adrienne have to team up to save Alexander.  Anjelica's shady dealings with an ex lover with ties to Victor come back to haunt her.. Meanwhile Victor Kiriakis Jr. comes to town seeking help from his family because his twin Joseph is missing and he  gets swept up in Anjelica's web. Wilson is also affected by her.  So many possibilities wasted by Ron..

Plus they could have brought her back when Jack returned from the dead. It could have been her and Cassie Brady accompanying Jack back to Salem instead of freakin Faux Eve . 

Could have had Cassie seeking out Rolf ,who raised her and Rex at that lab . Begging Rolf to revive Jack ,her only friend in the world. Afterall Jack and Cassie were imprisoned in the same cell for 4 months when Andre DiMera re-kidnapped the Melaswen survivors . I can imagine they killed time by telling each other stories of their lives. Jack perhaps ommiting the rape of Kayla and telling her other stuff like sword fighting with Lawrence Alamain or his feud with Peter Blake and so on while she tells jack of her crushes on Shawn ,Lucas ,Philip only to learn they are her relatives as well as growing up in Rolf's lab . Point is ,I can see them forming a bond and becoming BFFs of some sort and still remaining in contact as pen pals after Cassie left Salem for Chicago with Rex in 2005  and Jack and Jen left Salem for London in 2006 .

Then when Jack dies during the Daysaster , Cassie seeks out Rolf and remembers him frequently bragging about his project resurrection potion while she was growing up in his lab and correctly assumes he has perfected it.  Then Rolf ,having a soft spot for Cassie , decides to experiment on Jack and he finally wakes up  Jack's memory gets scrambled and he calls for his step mum  Anjelica Devereaux and Cassie seeks her out and brings her to him and Jack eventually remembers Jen and his kids and so on and demands Cassie and Anjelica take him back to Salem . This triple surprise return would have been surprising when they gate crashed that new years party because all 3 characters havent been seen for sometime instead of forcing faux Eve in Jack's return in an attempt to make faux Eve Happen.

From then on ,you would have Anjelica pushing Cassie to pursue Jack because she is fed up with Jen treating him like junk after he returned from captivity in Afghanistan and doing Daniel . Anjelica and Kate can even team up to urge Cassie to go for Jack because atleast she wouldnt be that judgemental towards him and so on thus pitting anjelica /Kate /JJ against Adrienne/Abby  /Jen /Roman who are anti-Jack/Cassie .

And I definitely love the idea of JJ bonding with Anjelica.  

 

 

So much potential !!!!

As long as Anjelica wasnt played by morgan fairchild, who should have been cast as Linda Anderson, Melissa Horton's bio mum. 

[Rafael]

On 4/16/2021 at 6:07 AM, nilyank said:

Tyler was adopted  by some family but I always that was a stupid way to get rid of child that new writers didn't want to write about.

I never understood why Mimi didn't want to keep the child when she was told that she could not have children.

I never understood why Victor or Kate didn't ignore Philip choice to sever his parental rights and grab their grandson to raise for themselves.

Exactly. Tyler should have been adopted by Steve and Kayla . There was far more long term story there. Plus Victor used to terrorise Kayla and Steve used to be his goon . And with Tyler being Victor's grandchild , there should have been long term conflict with Victor and Kate constantly interfering in steve and kayla's life and it should have been over tyler. Battle over Tyler's soul. Victor is the same guy who was yearning for an heir back in the 80s and 90s . He even wanted to marry Anjelica and claim Alexander as his own heir and son even though he was Justin's kid. That didnt work and he wanted Kate to provide him with an heir and Vivian stole the embryo and implanted it into herself and she gave birth to Philip in an attempt to endear herself more ro Victor. You telling me this guy was going to let go of Tyler ? Victor could have also berated Philip for aigning away his parental rights and displaying misoginy by stating that Tyler is a Kiriakis and it doesnt matter who his mother is when Philip responds that he wanted kids with Belle and not Mimi. 

We could have seen Kate and Victor popping by the Johnsons during the holidays and buying Tyler super expensive presents in an attempt to endear themselves to him and remind him he is a Kiriakis which would have angered Kayla ,Steve  and perhaps Caroline as well. Steve would threaten to expose Victor's misdeeds to blackmail Victor to back off Tyler  but Victor would retort that Steve carried those deeds foul willingly while he was Victors goon. 

Hell , they could have even used this as the catalyst to Kate and Victor reuniting as a pairing again . 

Tyler would have been caught between Steve /Kayla and Kate /Victor . 

 

I think they could have added Benjy Hawk's son Steven Hawk in the mix and have a bio Kiriakis and a Bio DiMera being brothers in a sort of way . Steve and Kayla's family structure would have been unique with Stephanie ,Tyler and Steven .

 

So much potential wasted.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Rafael

[howmanywords]

38 years ago we were blessed with Peter Reckell as Bo. I will never stop missing that man 😩 

Remembering Our Hero On the 38th Anniversary Peter Reckell’s Days of Our Lives Debut as Bo Brady

[Irlandesa]

Bo and Hope were mostly before my time. They had left by the time I started watching and then they came back to kill off Hope so Bo could stay on the show and date other people. 

But watching that clip--there's just something about the feel of those 80s soaps, isn't there?  I'm not even talking quality.  Ah--the glory days.

[RealHousewife]

On 5/3/2021 at 3:31 PM, howmanywords said:

38 years ago we were blessed with Peter Reckell as Bo. I will never stop missing that man 😩 

Remembering Our Hero On the 38th Anniversary Peter Reckell’s Days of Our Lives Debut as Bo Brady

His death was one of the last times I got really emotional watching Days. I grew up watching Bo. Miss him very much. 

[DisneyBoy]

Yeah, I could see that what SH stepped into was a circus show the moment she took over the role. Under Ron's pen, Kristen was a cartoon from the word "go" and sloppy as all heck. Having Kristen pop up to wave a gun around Salem Square was silly. Kristen would never do something that brash and impulsive. She's not an idiot. It's all been downhill from there.

Chell, the Italian Castle story - if you want to know - was Eileen's last as Kristen. She had returned to Salem months prior to get her hooks into Brady again and coerce Eric into dropping the rape charges in exchange for a miracle cure to John's coma. Theresa, you'll recall (in a really dumb story move) hit John in the head with a fireplace poker after she tried to marry a drunk Brady. Kristen figured her secret out fast, brought John out of his coma and exposed Theresa to Brady, hoping to woo him back. Instead, he walked away from her for (ugh) briefly making out with his best buddy, Disgusting Daniel (the Ben of his day). Then, she found out Theresa was pregnant with Brady's baby...so she arranged for a Dr to snatch the fertilized embryo from Theresa's body, implant it in her own womb and then left town. Theresa tried to tell Brady she was pregnant but tests proved otherwise and she couldn't remember what had happened. Brady moved on with Dr Taniel's daughter (!!) Melanie,  the nurse. Months passed. Theresa started dating a sketchy creep.

Mr Creep surprised Theresa with a getaway to Italy because he was secretly working with Kristen who has been hiding away in a family castle. The baby, now born, needed his real mother's bone marrow (I think), leaving Kristen no choice but to get Theresa to her, have the surgery done and then kill her off. Meanwhile back in Salem, Melanie used her nursing skills to figure out that, yes, Theresa had somehow been pregnant before but perhaps had the baby stolen. She told Brady and they suspected Kristen did it and he found out that Victor knew all along where Kristen was hiding (but kept it quiet?)

Brady confronted Kristen in the castle and she tried to claim the kid was Daniel's but ended up locking up Brady, Mel and Theresa. She gave Brady a chance to meet his son - "Kristopher" - and sobbed that she could have made him so happy. He begged her not to kill him, but she felt there was no other way.

Enter Marlena, who thought she was following John's newly discovered son Paul to Italy because that was the address written on a notepad at Victor's. Coincidence!! Kristen was poised to shoot her dead on site, but Brady fought and killed Mr Creep and startled Kristen....giving Marlena a chance to shove her rival backwards.

This slight nudge was somehow forceful enough to send her barreling through a window and over a cliff to her presumed death.

...it played out over a week, felt thrown together and cheesy, and only Eileen's farewell to Brady scene carried any of the nuance of her character's history. It was a pretty sad, abrupt, implausible, embarrassing end to a beloved character. The best part was Stefano dragging Marlena back to the castle so he could watch his thugs throw her smug ass out the same window the following week, as payback for having killed his daughter.

....but as was just said, that ending seems like poetry now compared to the "we're going to force her down your throats and you'll like it!" approach they've taken with SH's incarnation of the character.

[CanaryFan98]

15 hours ago, Pearson80 said:

Kristen is played out just like Stefano was for years but this show is just obsessed with the Dimera family.  Once Stefano became a regular citizen living comfortably in Salem with his many victims, he was done in my opinion..

I remember people on here going after Hope for killing that evil bastard.  Hope did Salem a favor for taking out the trash.. 

Hope killing Stefano didn't bother me(I rather have it been Roman as a full circle moment) its that she covered it up and let Andre take the fall which pretty much damaged the character and the Rafe pairing didn't help either. Then it got worse when they tried to retcon the whole thing with Shane in a Stefano mask because they realized they effed up.

 

If she had a mental break and did it I would think it wouldn't have been so damaging to the character. Plus Stefano going out with a literal bang is the exit he should've gotten instead of the essence of Stefano etc when Joe Mascolo is no longer with us.

[Pearson80]

1 hour ago, CanaryFan98 said:

Hope killing Stefano didn't bother me(I rather have it been Roman as a full circle moment) its that she covered it up and let Andre take the fall which pretty much damaged the character and the Rafe pairing didn't help either. Then it got worse when they tried to retcon the whole thing with Shane in a Stefano mask because they realized they effed up.

 

If she had a mental break and did it I would think it wouldn't have been so damaging to the character. Plus Stefano going out with a literal bang is the exit he should've gotten instead of the essence of Stefano etc when Joe Mascolo is no longer with us.

I always wanted Roman to end Stefano.  Since it was Roman's determination to expose Stefano as a criminal put him and his family in mortal danger. Not to mention, Roman lost everything dear to him because of him.  

My only issue with Hope killing Stefano was the aftermath. Hope in character would have taken responsibility for it, full stop. I have always said that Hope was never the same after she came back from the dead.  JER hated Hope and did everything to destroy her.  Bo treating her like crap for that insipid Billie was so disappointing. 

Edited August 22, 2021 by Pearson80

[Chellfairy]

@DisneyBoy

Thank you very much for condensing what went  down with the castle story! Now I want to see it! It explains a little bit with the Nu-Kristen/stupid Brady thing that o was watching when I started back up. 
yeah, I had no idea !

still don’t like SH Kristen..ya just can’t go there. 😱

Edited August 22, 2021 by Chellfairy

[Irlandesa]

Discussion From the Spoilers thread:

I do blame the writers more than Josh about what happened to the character of Roman.    The writing for Roman had already diminished which is why (or part of why) the superior actor left the show again. He knew the character so he could make something out of what he was given.

Josh can't do that because he wasn't there for the character's formative years and the show never seemed to care to develop him.

I don't think I ever truly saw Drake as Roman either to be honest.  But the difference is, the writers cared (and were better) and took care to develop an impactful version of that character for Drake to play. 

[FnkyChkn34]

21 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

I don't think I ever truly saw Drake as Roman either to be honest.  But the difference is, the writers cared (and were better) and took care to develop an impactful version of that character for Drake to play. 

I think the only issue I have with this is that the writers have retconned John's past so much, they didn't know how to create a character for Drake after they made him "not-Roman."  John is just a mess...  I otherwise agree with your post, too.

[WendyCR72]

3 hours ago, Pearson80 said:

Wayne Northrup should not have come back as Roman.  Drake's Roman was very popular and undoing 5 years of stories with Drake as Roman was just stupid and short-sighted since Wayne left anyway, so what was the point of making Drake's Roman an impostor.  JT's Roman was just adding more salt to the wound.  His Roman is so pathetic and a nonfactor.  Whereas Roman as both Drake and Wayne was a force to be reckon with..

If I recall, one of Deidre Hall's conditions for returning as Marlena back in 1991 was that she wanted Wayne Northrop back as Roman. So...

I recall reading this someplace. If true, if I were Drake Hogestyn, I'd be upset. He may not be Olivier, but he damned well did the work to make Roman his own - and flourished just fine without Doc on the canvas.

Nothing against Wayne and I know many loved him, but the whole "John Black is not Roman" deal really screwed Drake Hogestyn over, and John Black is a mess. It's only thanks to Drake's history on the show and his charisma at that time as to why I think he remained on the show. Should have left him a Brady cousin as was written.

But God forbid we miss out on the scintillating pairings of Brady/Theresa and Shawn/Belle. (Hence why John was de-Brady'd yet again!)

[CanaryFan98]

Yeah Drake has a natural presence and chemistry with just about every female costar they put him with. That's rare. Of course I preferred all his non Marlena pairings.

While it was short sighted to go the Roman/John route in retrospect. I wish Roman was just killed offscreen because he might as well have been at this point.

Edited February 16, 2022 by CanaryFan98

[WendyCR72]

3 minutes ago, CanaryFan98 said:

Yeah Drake has a natural presence and chemistry with just about every female costar they put him with. That's rare. Of course I preferred all his non Marlena pairings.

Ditto. I remember the 5 seconds where John/Kate were mixing it up. Drake still has chemistry with other ladies. I think it could have worked. Oh, well.

[Irlandesa]

4 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Nothing against Wayne and I know many loved him, but the whole "John Black is not Roman" deal really screwed Drake Hogestyn over, and John Black is a mess. It's only thanks to Drake's history on the show and his charisma at that time as to why I think he remained on the show. Should have left him a Brady cousin as was written.

I don't think it screwed him over.  I think the affair story was kind of brilliant. 

But his character did turn into a mess when every writer since has thought of a new connection to give him.  But that's only the fault of the twist because it unmoored him from the Brady clan. But the subsequent backstories weren't necessary.

Yet they're still pulling that crap these days with people like Lani.

[nilyank]

1 hour ago, Irlandesa said:

I don't think it screwed him over.  I think the affair story was kind of brilliant. 

But his character did turn into a mess when every writer since has thought of a new connection to give him.  But that's only the fault of the twist because it unmoored him from the Brady clan. But the subsequent backstories weren't necessary.

Yet they're still pulling that crap these days with people like Lani.

They should have left him an Alamain. After they finally gave an explanation of who he was, that should have been it. But they kept changing it and tweeking his past until it because over ridiculous stupid. Baseball player. Priest. Art thief. Nameless thug. Assassin school dropout. Black. Brady. Alamain. Dimera. Brady. Whatever was the last retcon last name.

All of it was stupid.

[Panopticon]

Never mind.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Panopticon

[CanaryFan98]

10 hours ago, Panopticon said:

I think part of what happened with Josh was just plain bad casting. Not that he's a bad actor, but that he was wrong for the role. He didn't have chemistry-- not even adversarial chemistry-- with Deidre Hall, Ali Sweeney, Christie Clark, or Jensen Ackles.  Drake and Wayne did (excepting Jensen for Wayne, since Jensen and Wayne never worked together). Usually an actor doesn't get cast in a role when he doesn't click with any of the most important people in his character's life.

Again, I'm not trying to pick on Josh. I think he had chemistry with Greg Vaughan, who came along much later. I think he has chemistry with both Lauren Koslow and Leann Hunley. But if he and Deidre Hall were going to look at each other like they both had bad breath when he was supposed to be in love and she was supposed to be torn/guilty, that was a problem for the plot he was brought on to play. And if there was a whole lot of nothing between him and Ali Sweeney, when Sami was supposed to be stumping for Roman over John at all costs, that was a problem for the plot he was brought on to play.

Then there was the fact the Roman was a control freak with hothead leanings. True under both Wayne and Drake. Some of this is writing, but some of this is also actor vibe... and Josh plays a more cool-headed character. He's the been-there-seen-that guy chilling behind the bar talking down the young men before they do something stupid. It's a good vibe! It fills a necessary role on the show! It's not the sometimes aggressive, confrontational, arrogant Roman (who could also be loving and gentle, but wasn't always).

Then there's Josh's speaking patterns/accent, which don't quite line up with the other Brady siblings. Not that the other Brady siblings all had the same accents either, but there was originally a pretty clear effort to have some coordination: this is the Irish-American family from the docks, and this is how they talk.

And eventually the casting choice of Josh stung because his original character had relieved Kayla of her virginity. That meant limiting Roman/Kayla scenes. That meant Kayla wasn't used to ground the character as the guy who was parentified at a young age and was hero-worshipped by his younger sisters. It's quite a contrast to Drake's Roman, who consistently got that grounding from both Kim and Kayla.

So I don't blame the actor or the writers... I blame casting. Or else I blame Ken Corday if it's true that he decreed that Josh had to be hired on a permanent basis in the Roman role so Ken/Josh could continue golfing together.

 

 

 

FWIW Kayla was played by Catherine Mary Stuart when she slept with Chris. 

However I don't get why they just couldn't bring him back as Chris in the first place because he had ties to the Bradys and would be a lot better as I liked his character.

[WendyCR72]

Here is a scene with Renee Dumonde finding out about her parentage from a letter by her mother in Marlena's office. (This was before my soap-watching time, but I read the tears by Renee/Philece Sampler were likely very real, since the actress that played her mother, Lee Dumonde, was played by Brenda Benet, ex-Mrs. Bill Bixby, who sadly took her own life. From what I gather, this letter was Lee's swan song.)

I put this here because of the latest news in the spoiler thread:

 

[CanaryFan98]

That was one tragic family because Bill, Brenda and their son all died so young.

[WendyCR72]

Someone on Twitter with a lot of old Days stuff has posted more with Renée since there is a renewed focus on her. In a newly-posted clip, she confides in Marlena that she now knows Tony is not her brother, after all, and she is torn between him and David Banning [Julie's son, Eli's father, whom Renée was married to!].

[RedElf]

A clip from 1966.  Posted on the Reddit Days subforum today.

 

 

[CanaryFan98]

I like that Days never changed its theme. I wish I could watch old episodes of Days