Captain America: Civil War (2016)

[scriggle]

Really they never should've rushed the Civil War story like they did just to compete with BvS. Steve needed resolution to his character arc first. They should have waited until Black Panther & Captain Marvel films debuted and then tackled Civil War.

[KatWay]

I agree Civil War was rushed. And it shouldn't have been so much about Bucky, that story should have been dealt with on its own, not like they didn't have enough material there. I would have liked it better if the whole Accords business had been handled in a more nuanced way too. I thought the initial start was fine, but of course they put Ross, who was basically outright evil, in charge of it and everyone siding with it just became the antagonist by default. I would have liked it better if it hadn't been such a clearcut thing of right and wrong. From a rational point of view Tony's argument makes at least as much sense as Steve's, so to make the people in charge of the Accords just flat out terrible, showing only the bad aspects of oversight and regulation and none of the potentially positive ones, was a cop-out IMO.

[ChelseaNH]

19 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I don't think it was necessary to make Stark so out and out wrong about the Accords

I don't think he was out and out wrong.  The problem is that there's no good solution, so any response is going to have flaws.  It's a matter of picking which flaws you can live with and which flaws you can't.

[benteen]

As much as I liked Civil War, I thought for a while they should have waited a little longer until they built up their shared universe a little more.  Make it even bigger.  Ross's involvement is a joke considering he was the one who unleashed the Hulk and the Abomination on Harlem, which Tony should know.

I've mentioned this before but it annoyed the hell out of me how Steve and the rest of the Avengers just sit there and take it when they're blamed for New York and Washington D.C.  The alien invasion was the direct result of Shield screwing around with an alien artifact and attracting the attention of an Asgardian god.  Washington D.C. again was the result of Shield, a government agency that no one in the government realized was taken over by evil Nazis for decades.  Cap had to act as quickly as they did because the Shield helicarries that the government allowed the secretly evil organization to build was about to kill over 20 million people.  That means whatever collateral damage Cap and his team caused was, I don't want to use the word but acceptable.

Despite all this, Cap lets an evil piece of garbage like Ross blame him and the Avengers for this and says nothing.

Edited January 9, 2017 by benteen

[morakot]

Well he did hear about Peggy dying in the middle of the discussion so Steve was distracted.

The whole "going into foreign countries" situation was never covered. They don't go through passport control (or carry passports as far as I can tell). It could be that they are basically in transit but governments would want to know who's coming into their countries.

If it wasn't constructed as a way to stop Tony being a spoiled brat, the Accords could be adapted in a way that Steve could accept. I'm interested to see how he works with Black Panther.

[VCRTracking]

A few days ago I stumbled on an old video of Jerry Orbach singing "Try to Remember"  and thought "I know that song. Where do I know that from?" And looking at other covers of the song  by Julie Andrews and Andy Williams and reading the comments I realized it was from Civil War sung by Tony's mom in the virtual memory. I found an EW.com article on it:

Iron Man mom: Captain America Civil War discussion

Quote

 

In the memory scene in Civil War, a young Tony Stark listens as his mother plays the song “Try To Remember,” which is from the 1960 musical The Fantasticks.

Why did they choose that song?

“That was Downey,” Anthony Russo says. “He was very fixated on that song.”

“We were working on that scene and we knew we wanted it to have a little bit of a throwback feel. It was shot almost like a stage play,” Joe Russo adds. “There was an original idea probably from [screenwriters Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeeley] that she was playing a piano at the beginning of the scene and then we discover Tony drunk on the couch.”

“Then they were playing together at one point,” Anthony Russo says. “We went through a million songs, we kept changing it every couple weeks.”

“It’s not AC/DC,” Kevin Feige jokes.

“Downey had a very personal reason for wanting that song,” Anthony Russo says of “Try To Remember.” “I think it was a song he loved when he was a kid.”

Shifting into ultra-geek analysis mode, the song also includes repeated variations on the line, “Try to remember a kind of September …” when life seemed happy and limitless.

“Deep in December it’s nice to remember / The fire of September that made us mellow…”

 

Edited February 3, 2017 by VCRTracking

[Kel Varnsen]

Have been watching this again over the last few nights. One thing i really liked is Spider-Man and how they displayed his powers. Just thinking of the comics characters, in the airport scene he probably was the strongest person  there. So i liked that unlike just about everyone else who tried,Zip he actually held his own fighting Bucky (and Sam no less). And between his strength, speed and spider sense he actually fought well against Cap.

Still think the accords thing didn't really work and still think the Avengers being registered government agents makes sense. I think it might have worked better if the accords required everyone with powers (whether they use them or not) to be registered, and Steve was fighting to protect the rights of those people.

[Raja]

11 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Have been watching this again over the last few nights. One thing i really liked is Spider-Man and how they displayed his powers. Just thinking of the comics characters, in the airport scene he probably was the strongest person  there. So i liked that unlike just about everyone else who tried,Zip he actually held his own fighting Bucky (and Sam no less). And between his strength, speed and spider sense he actually fought well against Cap.

Still think the accords thing didn't really work and still think the Avengers being registered government agents makes sense. I think it might have worked better if the accords required everyone with powers (whether they use them or not) to be registered, and Steve was fighting to protect the rights of those people.

It was a weakness in an "it's all connected world" where the TV show was filling in the blanks. While The Vision could talk about the exponential increase of enhanced people only TV has the time to show government agents, a reformed SHIELD in America's case, going through a formal registration process for non Avengers and show the  dangers of that database being hacked. Peter Parker being a minor does throw an entire monkey wrench in the legality of what he can decide to do. It might be worth a TV episode showing Tony Stark or an Avengers lawyer going to court for some sort of guardianship of an enhanced minor with a secret identity but it can't fit into another character's action movie

Edited August 8, 2017 by Raja

[Vera]

I think the accords are for more that just the Avenegers. The top page of that phone book size document hands them (One copy for all of them!) stated that it was the 'Sokovia Accords Framework for the Registration and Deployment of Enhanced Individuals'. One page of it had all the Avengers names and places to sign. Thor and Bruce don't seem to be included.

There's this deleted scene which they should have kept IMO.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

4 hours ago, Vera said:

I think the accords are for more that just the Avenegers. The top page of that phone book size document hands them (One copy for all of them!) stated that it was the 'Sokovia Accords Framework for the Registration and Deployment of Enhanced Individuals'. One page of it had all the Avengers names and places to sign. Thor and Bruce don't seem to be included.

In fairness, Ross asks Steve if he even knew where Thor and Banner were, then goes on to say that that's one of the problems. He likens being unaware of their locations to having misplaced a 30 ton nuke, and says that if he'd done so, there'd have been consequences.

Interesting deleted scene. T'Challa strikes me in that instance as being enhanced, but not at all part of anything to do with the Avengers. He inherited the mantle of Black Panther the same way he inherited his throne, because he thought Bucky killed his father, and I can't tell if Ross is pleased or pissed off about the extradition thing.

[Kel Varnsen]

2 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

In fairness, Ross asks Steve if he even knew where Thor and Banner were, then goes on to say that that's one of the problems. He likens being unaware of their locations to having misplaced a 30 ton nuke, and says that if he'd done so, there'd have been consequences.

Yea i fully get that the Accords probably covered all enhanced people. But Cap should have made more of a point that he was fighting for their rights. Since fighting for his rights to illegally enter any country and counduct his own law enforcement operations based on what he wanted to do was stupid.

The line about Thor was also stupid, since even if Thor was in that very room did Ross actually think a super strong immortal prince/god from another galaxy who can call down an interdimensional portal would bother with the accords or could in any way be forced tp sign them.

Also speaking of stupid, how was it in the time it took Cap and Bucky to get from Germany to Siberia, Tony was able to get from Germany to the Avengers New York compound, have Rhodes evaluated, talk to Natasha about it, fly to the Raft then fly to Siberia and get there before Cap and Bucky left?

[ChelseaNH]

I thought Ross' statement was stupid because nukes are not autonomous beings.  Things do not go wandering off of their own accord.  Unless they're socks in the dryer, and even then I suspect it was the dryer's idea.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

If I squint really hard, I could see him saying it about Wanda, and even that's with the caveat that she couldn't possibly have known Rumlow was armed with a bomb. Superpowers and the availability of tech aside, with the exception of Thor the characters are human, and humans are incredibly prone to making mistakes.

[scriggle]

Wanda had nothing to do with the bomb going off. Rumlow set off the bomb. Wanda was using her powers to contain the explosion and remove it from the crowded market. Unfortunately she lost the containment field near the building. Lives were lost but Wanda did all she could to save lives. Had she not contained and moved the explosion hundreds likely would've been killed instead of a dozen.

Ross sees weapons not people. Remember his history with the Hulk. He wants supersoldiers. He wants them under his control. He was probably salivating at the thought of getting Steve, the original supersoldier, under his control. I'm sure replicating the serum was one of Ross's goals.

[Perfect Xero]

Wanda was responsible for, like, 95% of the bad stuff that happened in Age of Ultron, and only switched sides at the end when she realized that Ultron was going to kill all of the people on Earth, herself included, and not just the people that Wanda didn't like. But she makes a sad face or something in Civil War, so I'm supposed to feel bad that they don't want her leaving the house.

The funny thing about Ross is that on the audio commentary when Ross first shows up the Russos are slapping themselves on the back for developing Ross's character "off screen" so that they could use William Hurt in Civil War without him being a villain. They actually act surprised later in the move when Ross won't let Tony follow up the lead on Zemo that he's kind of acting like a villain.

[Kel Varnsen]

8 hours ago, ChelseaNH said:

I thought Ross' statement was stupid because nukes are not autonomous beings.  Things do not go wandering off of their own accord.  Unless they're socks in the dryer, and even then I suspect it was the dryer's idea.

That was exactly my point unless he wants to there is no way you can force Thor to sign. And if he doesn't sign there is no way you can enforce it on him, what with the rainbow bridge and all.

[revbfc]

6 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

 

The funny thing about Ross is that on the audio commentary when Ross first shows up the Russos are slapping themselves on the back for developing Ross's character "off screen" so that they could use William Hurt in Civil War without him being a villain. They actually act surprised later in the move when Ross won't let Tony follow up the lead on Zemo that he's kind of acting like a villain.

Not so much villain, but bureaucrat.  He's  more "big-ass speed bump" than "unstoppable force."

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Sorta off-topic, but:

8 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Wanda was responsible for, like, 95% of the bad stuff that happened in Age of Ultron, and only switched sides at the end when she realized that Ultron was going to kill all of the people on Earth, herself included, and not just the people that Wanda didn't like. But she makes a sad face or something in Civil War, so I'm supposed to feel bad that they don't want her leaving the house.

While Wanda can certainly be faulted for backing the wrong horse (and for brain-jacking Stark into creating said horse) Steve certainly thought she had a point when she said, "Ultron can't tell the difference between saving the world and destroying it. Where do you think he gets that?" They got lucky that they got Vision out of Tony and Bruce trying to unfuck their fuckup, instead of something a whole lot worse than what they'd already made.

[anna0852]

That actually bugged me quite a lot. Bruce was just as responsible for Ultron but Tony seemed to get all the blame.

[JessePinkman]

Making Ultron the villain of the second Avengers movie was a huge mistake. There was zero build up to his creation.

[Bruinsfan]

22 hours ago, scriggle said:

Wanda had nothing to do with the bomb going off. Rumlow set off the bomb. Wanda was using her powers to contain the explosion and remove it from the crowded market. Unfortunately she lost the containment field near the building. Lives were lost but Wanda did all she could to save lives. Had she not contained and moved the explosion hundreds likely would've been killed instead of a dozen.

I've not seen it pointed out, but I imagine the fact that her intervention made the casualties visiting diplomats from a technologically advanced nation rather than a few hundred Nigerian commoners in a marketplace had a significant impact on how fast and aggressive the US government and UN were about getting those Accords on the table.

 

16 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

That was exactly my point unless he wants to there is no way you can force Thor to sign. And if he doesn't sign there is no way you can enforce it on him, what with the rainbow bridge and all.

There's also the complication that in addition to being a walking nuke, Thor is also a head of state who represents an entire floating asteroid/golden city full of somewhat less powerful walking nukes whose technology is centuries or millennia ahead of anything on earth. If he'd been present I think even Ross would have realized the necessity to tone down his my-way-or-the-highway approach.

[rmontro]

50 minutes ago, JessePinkman said:

Making Ultron the villain of the second Avengers movie was a huge mistake. There was zero build up to his creation.

Ultron was built as a response to the big threats of the past (like the events in the first Avengers movie), so I'm not sure I'd say there was no buildup.  I loved Age of Ultron, and I'm glad they didn't rush right into Thanos.  

[Lantern7]

16 hours ago, revbfc said:

Not so much villain, but bureaucrat.  He's  more "big-ass speed bump" than "unstoppable force."

Once again, I like the canon Ross better . . . back in Priest's run on Black Panther where Ross was basically King Of The Useless White Boys. And he'd get into weird stuff, like President Clinton chasing him with a hockey stick. Or the time Thor got shot in the head by a sniper and landed on Ross. Good times. Besides, we already had a bureaucrat-type in the MCU in Couslon.

[Dandesun]

7 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

Once again, I like the canon Ross better . . . back in Priest's run on Black Panther where Ross was basically King Of The Useless White Boys. And he'd get into weird stuff, like President Clinton chasing him with a hockey stick. Or the time Thor got shot in the head by a sniper and landed on Ross. Good times. Besides, we already had a bureaucrat-type in the MCU in Couslon.

Isn't that Everett Ross, though? Played by Martin Freeman in Civil War? As opposed to General "Thunderbolt" Ross played by William Hurt.

Everett Ross in Civil War is a bit of a government stooge at first... with the whole laughing out loud at the very idea that Bucky would be given legal counsel. But when they had him at the end with Zemo, it seems he might have wised up a wee bit. Especially in regards to the fact that they had the right guy this time as opposed to a very very convenient scapegoat in Bucky.

Two government dudes named Ross, though... not at all confusing.

[Kel Varnsen]

7 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Once again, I like the canon Ross better . . . back in Priest's run on Black Panther where Ross was basically King Of The Useless White Boys. And he'd get into weird stuff, like President Clinton chasing him with a hockey stick. Or the time Thor got shot in the head by a sniper and landed on Ross. Good times. Besides, we already had a bureaucrat-type in the MCU in Couslon.

I am not sure comics Everett K. Ross would really work in the MCU. The whole point of his character was to kind of show how no one really gave a shit about T'challa either as a head of state (because no one really knew anything about Wakanda) or as an Avenger (because as Priest always said he was the guy in the back of the group photo and there were like 100's of Avengers). So they assign some Useless guy like Ross to be his state department liaison when he visited NYC. But as far as super heroes go there are a lot less in the MCU so one who is also a king of a nation that people have actually heard of is a lot bigger deal. So when he comes to down you can't just send some low level idiot from the state department to pick him up. But yes, canon Ross was great and hilarious, and it is really too bad that Michael J. Fox isn't like 30 years younger.

[Raja]

15 hours ago, anna0852 said:

That actually bugged me quite a lot. Bruce was just as responsible for Ultron but Tony seemed to get all the blame.

Well Doctor Banner all ready screwed up thus creating the Hulk, even if it was as a SHIELD Agent, he wasn't second generation government golden boy like Tony Stark

[Perfect Xero]

On 8/9/2017 at 10:50 PM, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Sorta off-topic, but:

While Wanda can certainly be faulted for backing the wrong horse (and for brain-jacking Stark into creating said horse) Steve certainly thought she had a point when she said, "Ultron can't tell the difference between saving the world and destroying it. Where do you think he gets that?" They got lucky that they got Vision out of Tony and Bruce trying to unfuck their fuckup, instead of something a whole lot worse than what they'd already made.

Wanda, a day or so earlier, unleashed a green rage monster on a city full of innocent people, if she and Steve are trying to puzzle out the source of Ultron not knowing the difference between saving and destroying.

[ChelseaNH]

I'm not following; perhaps you can rephrase.

1.  Did Wanda think she was saving anyone by unleashing the Hulk?

2.  What did Wanda have to do with the source of Ultron's belief system?

[Perfect Xero]

20 hours ago, ChelseaNH said:

I'm not following; perhaps you can rephrase.

1.  Did Wanda think she was saving anyone by unleashing the Hulk?

2.  What did Wanda have to do with the source of Ultron's belief system?

1. Yes, apparently, her stated reason for backing Ultron was that he would destroy the Avengers and create a better world.

2. She used magic to screw with Tony's head, leading to the creation of Ultron.

[scriggle]

4 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

2. She used magic to screw with Tony's head, leading to the creation of Ultron.

She used her powers to show him his greatest fear. She did that to Cap, Natasha, and the others too. What Tony did after that is all on him. He was already working on Ultron when he decided messing with Loki's scepter, alien tech he knew nothing about, would be a good thing to do.

[Perfect Xero]

2 hours ago, scriggle said:

She used her powers to show him his greatest fear. She did that to Cap, Natasha, and the others too. What Tony did after that is all on him. He was already working on Ultron when he decided messing with Loki's scepter, alien tech he knew nothing about, would be a good thing to do.

Right, like if you drug someone without their consent everything that they do while drugged is 100% on them.

[Bruinsfan]

Maybe not 100%, but it's not a coincidence that the two Avengers involved in creating the genocide-happy robot also happened to be the two whose own psychiatric problems and character flaws made them the most profoundly affected by Wanda's mental tampering. I mean, Thor could theoretically cause more widespread devastation than the Hulk, but his reaction to seeing visions of his worst fears realized was to visit an old friend and go on the Norse analog of a sweat lodge vision quest instead of rampaging through the nearest city.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Bruinsfan

[Raja]

4 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

Maybe not 100%, but it's not a coincidence that the two Avengers involved in creating the genocide-happy robot also happened to be the two whose own psychiatric problems and character flaws made them the most profoundly affected by Wanda's mental tampering. I mean, Thor could theoretically cause more widespread devastation than the Hulk, but his reaction to seeing visions of his worst fears realized was to visit an old friend and go on the Norse analog of a sweat lodge vision quest instead of rampaging through the nearest city.

I think you are on to something, the rest of The Avengers were either soldiers or SHIELD paramilitary agents and to some limited extent prepared before facing battle.

[Bruinsfan]

I wasn't specifically thinking of it in terms of military/tactical training (can that train you to face hallucinating your worst nightmares?), so much as the other characters just being more stable/mentally resilient in general. I'd bet Pepper Potts would handle such an experience better than the entire team, maybe with the exception of Cap.

[Raja]

22 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

I wasn't specifically thinking of it in terms of military/tactical training (can that train you to face hallucinating your worst nightmares?), so much as the other characters just being more stable/mentally resilient in general. I'd bet Pepper Potts would handle such an experience better than the entire team, maybe with the exception of Cap.

I think part of the basic training gets into psychological conditioning. Part of the reason it has changed over certain periods of history after the experience of the last war starts to be peer reviewed and sent out to the forces.

[Kel Varnsen]

58 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

I wasn't specifically thinking of it in terms of military/tactical training (can that train you to face hallucinating your worst nightmares?), so much as the other characters just being more stable/mentally resilient in general. I'd bet Pepper Potts would handle such an experience better than the entire team, maybe with the exception of Cap.

Wasn't that the whole point of Iron Man 3? Tony had severe ptsd after the battle of ny because he wasn't any kind of soldier or that kind of thing and had no experience with any kind of actual battle.

[Dandesun]

I'd wager that Tony's had PTSD since Iron Man 1 and then the events of the Avengers exacerbated that. PTSD doesn't care if you're a soldier or not. Cap clearly has PTSD when we meet him in the Avengers. He's secluded himself and is having flashbacks. Yes, you can argue that that was the visual narrative they decided to use in order to bring viewers up to speed on who and what and where Cap was and came from but it was framed as a PTSD episode complete with destruction of property (the line of heavy bags waiting for him to lose it and punch a hole in them). the amped up emotional state as a result of the flashbacks, and the almost disassociation when Fury shows up with 'hey, remember this thing you gave your life to protect us all from? We've been playing with it lo these many years and can you help us clean up again?'

Also consider that the official MCU timeline basically puts Cap out of the ice for two weeks before Fury arrived with his docket. Of course Steve is going to join up because that's what Steve does and, also, he has nothing else. It wasn't until Sam in Winter Soldier that anyone asked 'Hey, what makes you happy? What do you want to do?' and Cap can't answer either of those questions. Sam rightly points out that Steve could do whatever he wanted and Steve is at a complete loss because he's got no shred of his life beforehand left to him so why not keep being a soldier?

Tony being a civilian doesn't make his PTSD somehow worse or more damaging than Steve's. Just because you fight in a war doesn't mean you're prepared for the horror of it. Both of those men are suffering, they're just very different people so they handle it in very different ways.

[anna0852]

And neither of them seems to recognize that the other is suffering. Steve is hell-bent on seeing Tony as irresponsible and Tony still hasn't forgiven Steve for being Howard's favorite.

[scriggle]

11 minutes ago, anna0852 said:

And neither of them seems to recognize that the other is suffering. Steve is hell-bent on seeing Tony as irresponsible and Tony still hasn't forgiven Steve for being Howard's favorite.

That's one of the things that really gets me about Tony in the MCU. It is so damn unfair to Steve. Howard may have put Steve on a pedestal but that is NOT Steve's fault. Howard's obsession with Steve is NOT Steve's fault; in fact how could Steve even be aware of it. Steve remembers Howard as a friend and colleague during the war. Tony was born 25 years after Steve died. Howard was a shitty father - NOT Steve's fault. Tony blaming Steve for stuff Howard did is unfair.

And really, Tony is irresponsible. He makes the same mistakes over and over and never learns from them.

[Morrigan2575]

41 minutes ago, scriggle said:

That's one of the things that really gets me about Tony in the MCU. It is so damn unfair to Steve. Howard may have put Steve on a pedestal but that is NOT Steve's fault. Howard's obsession with Steve is NOT Steve's fault; in fact how could Steve even be aware of it. Steve remembers Howard as a friend and colleague during the war. Tony was born 25 years after Steve died. Howard was a shitty father - NOT Steve's fault. Tony blaming Steve for stuff Howard did is unfair.

And really, Tony is irresponsible. He makes the same mistakes over and over and never learns from them.

While I absolutely agree with you Tony had a very complex/dysfunctional relationship with his father but he never got to resolve those issues. While it's not Steve's fault, Howard is dead and Tony seems to be displacing his relationship/issues/feelings from Howard to Steve.  At least in The Avengers, I think the issues in Ultron and Civil War were less about Howard and more about their differing beliefs.

BTW I'm not trying to justify/excuse Tony I just think I see where he might be coming from. 

Edited August 16, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[Perfect Xero]

3 hours ago, scriggle said:

That's one of the things that really gets me about Tony in the MCU. It is so damn unfair to Steve. Howard may have put Steve on a pedestal but that is NOT Steve's fault. Howard's obsession with Steve is NOT Steve's fault; in fact how could Steve even be aware of it. Steve remembers Howard as a friend and colleague during the war. Tony was born 25 years after Steve died. Howard was a shitty father - NOT Steve's fault. Tony blaming Steve for stuff Howard did is unfair.

And really, Tony is irresponsible. He makes the same mistakes over and over and never learns from them.

"Big man in a suit of armor, take that off and what are you?"

"You'd better stop pretending to be a hero."

Yes, Tony is the one who is unfair to Steve.

[VCRTracking]

Loki's scepter was upping everybody's hostilities in that scene. Steve had been feeling out of place and obsolete in the 21st century and Tony sure wasn't helping. He was deliberately pushing Steve's buttons. Once the Helicarrier was in danger, they were able to forget about their differences and work together.

[Vera]

3 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

"Big man in a suit of armor, take that off and what are you?"

"You'd better stop pretending to be a hero."

Yes, Tony is the one who is unfair to Steve.

Steve was out of the ice for a few weeks, nearly 70 years into the future, he has lost everything he once knew and was being asked asked to fight Aliens. For Steve, World War II was a few weeks before this. I'm hard pressed to fault Steve for being a little testy here. . Tony had lived in this world, he knows it. He has far more information than Steve does at this point. When he first meets Tony, Steve isn't the one making the jibes. Tony is being completely passive-aggressive with the quips about him being spry for an old man and doing time as a capsicle. Remember the 'That's the guy my dad never shut up about? Wondering if they shouldn't have kept him on ice.'. Tony, who is in his 40s, let's his daddy issues take precedence over Steve's trauma, who at this point is a mid-20s war veteran, displaced so far ahead in time. 

[scriggle]

34 minutes ago, Vera said:

Steve was out of the ice for a few weeks, nearly 70 years into the future, he has lost everything he once knew and was being asked asked to fight Aliens. For Steve, World War II was a few weeks before this. I'm hard pressed to fault Steve for being a little testy here. . Tony had lived in this world, he knows it. He has far more information than Steve does at this point. When he first meets Tony, Steve isn't the one making the jibes. Tony is being completely passive-aggressive with the quips about him being spry for an old man and doing time as a capsicle. Remember the 'That's the guy my dad never shut up about? Wondering if they shouldn't have kept him on ice.'. Tony, who is in his 40s, let's his daddy issues take precedence over Steve's trauma, who at this point is a mid-20s war veteran, displaced so far ahead in time. 

All of this. I want to give this post a million likes.

Plus "Everything special about you came out of a bottle."

Tony constantly makes jibes at everyone. And it's always given a pass as Tony being Tony. When in fact Tony's an entitled ass.

That's one of the major problems with CW, in the MCU Steve and Tony are never shown to be close friends. I can't think of one instance where Tony calls Steve by his name; he always calls Steve "Cap". To me that shows Tony doesn't know the difference between Steve Rogers and Captain America.

[Dandesun]

To be fair, I don't think anyone knows the difference between Steve Rogers and Captain America because Steve is that far removed from his own life and experiences and all that's left is the propaganda factory that very likely took over the second he flew that plane into the ice. Hell, the Cap Legend was already firmly in place the second he came out of the Erskine/Stark hottie machine and then tore through Brooklyn on barefoot to catch Richard Armitage. That being said, he was trying to function by being a soldier again and Tony with his super brain decided it was better to make fun of him, scoff or snarl at anything that came out of Steve's mouth and stew in his over-whelming Daddy issues. Because that's always a good move to make with a traumatized vet who's been in the world again for two fucking weeks.

But, yeah, Tony being Tony. Whatever.

Also the 'Everything special about you came out of a bottle' line never fails to make me want to punch Tony in the nuts. Plus, he's so abrasive that despite his being absolutely correct about Fury and SHIELD hiding shit (oh boy was he ever... although even he didn't realize how deep it went) he's more inclined to call Steve useless than appeal to him to really question the motivation. It took Bruce being the calmer voice to get Steve to listen (although if Mark Ruffalo came at me with his sweet face and sweet voice I'd definitely be all 'yes, let me hear you out... should I made tea as well? Let's have tea together while you explain this...') but when he did Steve went and brought the actual prototype weapons back and then got to turn the full fury of his Steve Rogers Stinkeye on Fury about doing the same shit Hydra did with the Tesseract.

I always did get a kick out of the 'He's my friend' 'so was I' thing because... no. Steve and Tony have never and probably will never see eye to eye. They're just too different. They are able to put aside those differences for the greater good even if they snark at each other because they did come to recognize the worth that the other had. But Civil War wasn't about Steve choosing his friendship with Bucky over his friendship with Tony... certainly not to me. At least not in a way that was remotely tense in a 'who will he choose' kind of way because there was never going to be a question that it would be Bucky. Sam's MUCH closer to Steve than Tony is and even that's not a question. Steve's always going to choose Bucky. Civil War struck me as being about Steve and Tony's differences getting to a point where they COULDN'T put it aside. Tony didn't want to carry the burden of his decisions anymore (fair or not, I understand that... all I got from him in CW was bone-deep fatigue) and Steve "I can get by on my own" can't let anyone else carry the burden (also understandable given the history of governments and world security councils and SHIELD in the MCU.)

[Jazzy24]

1 hour ago, Dandesun said:

To be fair, I don't think anyone knows the difference between Steve Rogers and Captain America because Steve is that far removed from his own life and experiences and all that's left is the propaganda factory that very likely took over the second he flew that plane into the ice. Hell, the Cap Legend was already firmly in place the second he came out of the Erskine/Stark hottie machine and then tore through Brooklyn on barefoot to catch Richard Armitage. That being said, he was trying to function by being a soldier again and Tony with his super brain decided it was better to make fun of him, scoff or snarl at anything that came out of Steve's mouth and stew in his over-whelming Daddy issues. Because that's always a good move to make with a traumatized vet who's been in the world again for two fucking weeks.

But, yeah, Tony being Tony. Whatever.

Also the 'Everything special about you came out of a bottle' line never fails to make me want to punch Tony in the nuts. Plus, he's so abrasive that despite his being absolutely correct about Fury and SHIELD hiding shit (oh boy was he ever... although even he didn't realize how deep it went) he's more inclined to call Steve useless than appeal to him to really question the motivation. It took Bruce being the calmer voice to get Steve to listen (although if Mark Ruffalo came at me with his sweet face and sweet voice I'd definitely be all 'yes, let me hear you out... should I made tea as well? Let's have tea together while you explain this...') but when he did Steve went and brought the actual prototype weapons back and then got to turn the full fury of his Steve Rogers Stinkeye on Fury about doing the same shit Hydra did with the Tesseract.

I always did get a kick out of the 'He's my friend' 'so was I' thing because... no. Steve and Tony have never and probably will never see eye to eye. They're just too different. They are able to put aside those differences for the greater good even if they snark at each other because they did come to recognize the worth that the other had. But Civil War wasn't about Steve choosing his friendship with Bucky over his friendship with Tony... certainly not to me. At least not in a way that was remotely tense in a 'who will he choose' kind of way because there was never going to be a question that it would be Bucky. Sam's MUCH closer to Steve than Tony is and even that's not a question. Steve's always going to choose Bucky. Civil War struck me as being about Steve and Tony's differences getting to a point where they COULDN'T put it aside. Tony didn't want to carry the burden of his decisions anymore (fair or not, I understand that... all I got from him in CW was bone-deep fatigue) and Steve "I can get by on my own" can't let anyone else carry the burden (also understandable given the history of governments and world security councils and SHIELD in the MCU.)

Just cause Tony and Steve don't see eye to eye on nearly anything doesn't mean that they're not friends. I mean yeah Steve is definitely closer to Sam, Natasha and the love of his life Bucky and Tony only has Rhodey and Pepper plus Happy but I bet they would still call each other friends. 

And yes Tony will never trust Steve again and it was from Steve's end that he made sure that Tony and him still had a connect but Tony still thinks of Steve as a friend, maybe even family. 

[Crs97]

http://m.zimbio.com/Beyond+the+Box+Office/articles/yST4V39nQpt/Tony+Stark+Steve+Rogers+Relationship+Timeline

https://www.google.com/amp/s/filmschoolrejects.com/the-complicated-friendship-of-steve-rogers-and-tony-stark-6bc0838bce8b/amp/

 

 

two interesting articles on their friendship

Edited August 17, 2017 by Crs97
Edited because I agree with [b]nicepebbles[/b] about the order in which to read the articles and already flipped them for you

[nicepebbles]

You definitely have to read the two articles. They should really be article, with second article being the first half followed by the second article that sums it all up. Even after reading the articles, I still hesitate to call it a friendship. I probably need to rewatch the movies again because I've never come away thinking they were friends. I didn't think they hated each. I don't know what they word is for their relationship in my eyes. 

I walked away from this movie thinking several things:

1) Team Cap. I mean my memory is crap but I just kept thinking, they wouldn't be in this mess if Tony hadn't had this great idea to do what he did to unleash Ultron. While he recognizes he did wrong in his Tony way and it makes sense that he would want to reign himself in, he just went about it the wrong way. I will say though, as much as I'm Team Cap, I didn't feel like the guys on his team gave him enough perspective on Bucky. 

2) Why is this called CA:CW again? It was totally an Avengers movie. 

3) More Spider-Man please!

4) Thor? Hulk? Where were these guys? I didn't like that. 

5) Black Panther is everything! EVERY. THANG! For all what the movie is about, my absolute favorite moment was between T'Challa and his father before he died. 

[Raja]

10 hours ago, nicepebbles said:

 

4) Thor? Hulk? Where were these guys? I didn't like that. 

 

In story or real world? In the story Thor is an alien who visits Midgard/Earth so there is no reason to always need an explanation of why he is AWOL from The Avengers. At the end of Age Of Ultron Thor left earth and Hulk  left The Avengers in part because The Scarlet Witch was able to trigger "the other guy" beyond his, Bruce Banner's control. To use General Ross's term he was a nuclear weapon without a safety as much as The Winter Soldier was for Colonel Zemo. And the Hulk with some control beyond rage monster  took himself out of play in a similar way as Bucky Barnes going into some kind of stasis at the end of the Civil War.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Raja

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On 8/15/2017 at 9:00 PM, scriggle said:

That's one of the things that really gets me about Tony in the MCU. It is so damn unfair to Steve. Howard may have put Steve on a pedestal but that is NOT Steve's fault. Howard's obsession with Steve is NOT Steve's fault; in fact how could Steve even be aware of it. Steve remembers Howard as a friend and colleague during the war. Tony was born 25 years after Steve died. Howard was a shitty father - NOT Steve's fault. Tony blaming Steve for stuff Howard did is unfair.

And really, Tony is irresponsible. He makes the same mistakes over and over and never learns from them.

Well, it isn't exactly fair to Tony either. Even being who he is, imagine trying to live up to Howard most likely constantly saying "Why can't you be more like Steve Rogers?" Howard being a mostly shitty father isn't Steve's fault, but Howard holding up the long-vanished Captain America as some kind of paragon of virtue gives me a complex just thinking about it. He'd have been that perfect older brother that no one could ever hope to compete with, if only because he'd been gone for so long that all of his exploits would have been blown up to massive proportions.