S03.E11: ...And The Beast From The Sea

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Will Graham and Jack Crawford are certain that Francis Dolarhyde will strike again with the approaching full moon, but without a solid lead, they remain unable to predict the next family on the Red Dragon's hit list. Certain that Hannibal Lecter can lead the FBI to Dolarhyde, Alana Bloom offers Hannibal a chance at redemption. Meanwhile, Dolarhyde struggles with his feelings about the one good thing that remains in his life- his coworker Reba.

[kechara]

I sometimes found the sound  a bit quiet or muffled and I had trouble picking up some dialogue.

[Tippi Blevins]

Francis saying Will wasn't very handsome. Good God, man! How high are your standards?!

 

Also, is taking Hannibal's toilet away really a punishment for him? Isn't it really more of a punishment for the poor orderly that has to pick up and dispose of his poop bucket?

Edited August 14, 2015 by Tippi Blevins

[spinxella]

Yep, he called Will "odd looking" and "not very handsome". Francis needs his eyes checked.

 

Molly was so ashamed for buying canned dog food made in China. Tsk tsk! The Vet looked so disgusted.

 

Will made his dog food from scratch! Awww ;)

[kmm49]

So Will lives in a remote cabin but Molly just happens to find a guy driving down the lonely, snowy road when she needs him. Plus, she easily outsmarted The Red Dragon! I call BS! Too much of the horror movie element to it.

 

Will should know better than to leave his family there while he's working on a case and The Red Dragon knows who he is!

 

Unbelievable that Hannibal can tell The Red Dragon to kill Will's family over the phone that was never monitored! So the FBI only listened when Hannibal told them too?

Edited August 14, 2015 by kmm49

[Captanne]

I don't mean to be pedantic but that blurb strikes me as very poorly written, or at least "oddly" written.

 

Reba is the "last good thing" in Francis' life?  By Francis' standards, I presume.  Because, living in that house, well fed, with a job and a car doesn't sound like too much God damned hardship to me.  (Not to mention an active imaginary life that he can indulge in with weights and mirrors and all the shit he keeps in the attic to maintain his boy-ish figure.)  

 

ETA:  Not to mention the cut glass decanter set and the fancy gin for all those gin tonics Reba keeps washing down.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Captanne

[kmm49]

I think Francis calling Will not very handsome or odd looking means he sees him as a mere human being where he obviously sees himself as something greater than a human when he looks at himself in the mirror.

 

I have to admit that I was disappointed in Dolarhyde's disguise at the Graham household. What's the point of the teeth? He looked like a common thug.

Edited August 14, 2015 by kmm49

[Tippi Blevins]

I think the teeth have some kind of significance, symbolically, that's explained in the book but not so much here. That's what I gather from some discussion I've seen about the book, having not read it myself.

 

Hannibal should have told Francis to not even bother with the dogs. They're the friendliest bunch around. "Crazed killer? Come on in! Did you bring us any human cheek meat treats?" 

 

I feel bad for the poor guy who just happened to be driving by when Molly needed a car. 

 

Oh and I like the kid. He essentially gave Will the same advice Bedelia did, but in a much less creepy way.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Tippi Blevins

[kechara]

I think that in the book, he used his grandmother's dentures in part to disguise his bite marks. I kind of remember him picking up the teeth in the tattoo place so they may be a dragon pattern, although they don't look especially dragon like to me.

In the book, didn't Hannibal send the dragon after Will and his family? It seemed to me that this time he was basically aiming the dragon only at Will's wife and kid

[kmm49]

In the book, didn't Hannibal send the dragon after Will and his family? It seemed to me that this time he was basically aiming the dragon only at Will's wife and kid

From the conversation I thought Hannibal was sending him to kill all of them including Will. I didn't gather from the conversation that Hannibal wanted Will excluded. Did Hannibal know Will wasn't home? I guess that's the key.

[Tippi Blevins]

I got the impression Hannibal was trying to kill only Molly and the kid. "They're not my family," he says, after having called Will his family during a previous meeting. I think he's trying to strip Will's family from him. He seemed so miffed that Will got himself a new spouse and child.

 

Leading up to that, where will asks Hannibal, "You're willing to let a family die?" Why is he surprised by that? Is it because children are involved and he didn't realize Hannibal's disregard for human life extends to children?

Edited August 14, 2015 by Tippi Blevins

[penguinnj]

Loved Will's slow mo "We're so over they need a new name for it" walk from Molly to Hannibal.  Love the funny moments :)

[kmm49]

I got the impression Hannibal was trying to kill only Molly and the kid

Didn't Hannibal say kill them all? Maybe that meant even the dogs.

 

Will's making the second half of this season for me. Usually I watch for Hannibal but Will's trumped him. Hannibal hasn't been as interesting during The Red Dragon storyline but he had to get caught. I guess I just want more Hannibal/Will scenes. The focus of the show's always better when they're the focus not Will/Molly or Francis/Reba but they're still much better than the Verger baby and Alana/Margot craziness.

 

After looking at the last couple of episodes I'm wondering where Fuller could've gone if the show wasn't cancelled. I can see an end of the road now unfortunately though. Too bad this last season wasn't cohesive enough. It was too slow and rushed in places and too many plotholes.

Edited August 14, 2015 by kmm49

[Captanne]

So dark, this show.  Why so dark?

 

Anyway, did it end abruptly with Hannibal asking Will if he craved change?  My viewer cut off.  

[kmm49]

Anyway, did it end abruptly with Hannibal asking Will if he craved change?  My viewer cut off.

Yes. Mine too. It was very abrupt!

 

If Hannibal escapes at the end of this season I wonder if Fuller would've written another season of Hannibal on the run. I don't think I could've taken that. Now that Hannibal's behind glass it's best he stays there.

Edited August 15, 2015 by kmm49

[Captanne]

Good?  LOL  I guess misery loves company?

 

This episode was so darned dark that it took all the mystery out of Francis doing his crazy stalking-thing through the house.  Bummer.  

[DeadlyEuphoric]

I sometimes found the sound  a bit quiet or muffled and I had trouble picking up some dialogue.

 

I had the same problem but thought it was because of the livestream - which died on me for half the episode!

 

 

Francis saying Will wasn't very handsome. Good God, man! How high are your standards?!

 

Also, is taking Hannibal's toilet away really a punishment for him? Isn't it really more of a punishment for the poor orderly that has to pick up and dispose of his poop bucket?

 

Alana's aim is to make Hannibal suffer as much indignity as possible, even  if it means making the orderlies suffer too.

 

Yep, he called Will "odd looking" and "not very handsome". Francis needs his eyes checked.

 

Molly was so ashamed for buying canned dog food made in China. Tsk tsk! The Vet looked so disgusted.

 

Will made his dog food from scratch! Awww ;)

 

Poor Molly, totally freaked out at the idea of Will finding out she didn't take as good care of their dogs as he did. She knows the most important thing about Will - thou shalt not mess with the dogs!

 

 

Unbelievable that Hannibal can tell The Red Dragon to kill Will's family over the phone that was never monitored! So the FBI only listened when Hannibal told them too?

 

I don't know much about law and all that, but I always had the impression that it doesn't matter if you are a serial killer or not, you do have a right to private talks with your lawyer, and up until now that is what FBI was thinking Hannibal was doing, so I can see them not listening into his conversations. And even if they were all "ignore rights to privacy and law!" at some point, I think after 3 years of his good behavior and normal legal conversations with his lawyer, they are not that interested in listening into his conversations with his lawyer - which is what the calls were showing up as in their records.

 

 

I think that in the book, he used his grandmother's dentures in part to disguise his bite marks. I kind of remember him picking up the teeth in the tattoo place so they may be a dragon pattern, although they don't look especially dragon like to me.

In the book, didn't Hannibal send the dragon after Will and his family? It seemed to me that this time he was basically aiming the dragon only at Will's wife and kid

 

Didn't read the books but in Red Dragon the "grandmother" seemed to be one of the things haunting Francis and contributing to his murders so him using her dentures made sense. Here, the weird dentures don't make much sense, they would make more sense if they were more "dragon-like" and part of his transformation...

 

From the conversation I thought Hannibal was sending him to kill all of them including Will. I didn't gather from the conversation that Hannibal wanted Will excluded. Did Hannibal know Will wasn't home? I guess that's the key.

In the original story Will and Hannibal don't have the close personal relationship they have here, and Hannibal isn't trying to land himself a murder husband, so I think it makes sense that in this version he would send Dolarhyde to kill only Molly and Walter - Will's family who he is trying to remove from his life - be it through death or alienation. But yeah, not sure if he knew Will wouldn't be home. Based on Molly and Will's phone conversations I got the idea they live rather far away from where he has to "work" right now (all those visits to Hannibal etc.) and so he has been staying at a motel, calling Molly when feeling lonely etc. Which Hannibal probably knows. Come to think of it, when book Hannibal sent Dolarhyde to kill Will's family, I think he knew Will would not be there as he was in another city or something? (the family were in Florida?)

 

Anyway, did it end abruptly with Hannibal asking Will if he craved change?  My viewer cut off.  

 

It does. Which is the second time it ends abruptly I think. Last episode ended a bit abrupt for me too.

 

 

 

 

 

I feel Will is losing it, he was losing it before Hannibal had Dolarhyde go after his family. That "Jack Crawford, the fisher of men" speech was creepy and weird and I found it weird that it didn't cause Jack or Alana any alarm. And at the end, when Hannibal points out that now Red Dragon feels he can do anything and Will is repeating "anything" over and over, between the acting and the angle they shot that scene, really feels like he is coming undone. Given pretty much everyone in Will's life has been pointing out how Jack is to blame for what is happening -Hannibal, Alana and now Molly- and Will does seem rather upset and angry with Jack and the part he played in getting him back into all this, it is in Jack's best interests not to let Will go dark... Not that he seems to care or notice.

 

I also realized how so many people in Will's life is trying to make him kill someone now. Jack wanted him to kill Hannibal and I am sure has no problem with him killing Dolarhyde or Hannibal. Bedelia tells him to kill Dolarhyde and IMO she is also hoping he will kill Hannibal too. Even little Walter tells him to kill Dolarhyde. And of courser there is Hannibal, who just generally wants him to kill, he is not really picky about it at all. Quite the way to go from "Will is not a killer" in S1. Alana remains the only "killing is bad" person in all this and seemed to not approve of Jack wanting Dolarhyde to commit suicide too....

 

As far as I know, Walter's father/Molly's first husband was a baseball player. So Walter tuning Will out to watch some baseball, and Molly waking up to the sound of baseball and that being the first thing she sees etc. all seemed like bad signs for the future of Graham family for me, especially when combined with Molly talking about how good things in life are slippery.

 

 

When Dolarhyde was telling Hannibal how he is having doubts because of Reba in his life, I wonder if Hannibal was thinking "Women! They ruin everything!". Between Alana, Molly and Reba the women in the series seem to constantly get in the way of him getting what he wants (and even Bedelia if he is aware of her giving Will advice and warnings now).

 

Hannibal tells Dolarhyde to toss someone else to the Dragon and he immediately goes "Will Graham... interests me". Of course he does, Francis, he is like catnip to all you psychos and serial killers, apparently.

 

 

Is "odd-looking for an investigator" Dolarhyde's way of saying Will is tiny? He thinks he looks hideous and Will is not very handsome. I am very curious as to who deems as good looking.

 

"I am not Fortune's fool, I am yours".... Ohh Will, you know Hannibal is playing you, and yet not one minute later you find yourself telling him "we can save a family, tell me who he is". You just can't seem to accept the man simply doesn't care about anyone or anything - apart from you, and that is because he decided he wants you for life partner. And in all fairness, he has been telling you over and over (in his own way) that he is aiming for your family, you just failed to get the hints. Wonder if that is because he has been so focused on making sure Hannibal doesn't get inside his head that he is not as good as getting his hints, or has been so focused on Dolarhyde that he has some blind spots when it comes to Hannibal. Or he has some weird false sense of safety regarding Hannibal (he won't come after me) or is it a case of "we don't see what we don't want to see"? But then Jack and Alana thought they could get Hannibal to do what they wanted, so maybe it is just that after 3 years everyone has forgotten Hannibal will only ever do whatever suits his plans.

 

It sure is lucky that Molly is such a light sleeper. If I was in her place, Dolarhyde was sure to succeed. The little dog figurine we see as Dolarhyde walks around the Graham house made me laugh - which kind of ruins the mood.I liked the "car lights" trick Molly pulled, most would indeed try to make a run for their own car and escape I guess but she used it to trick him. Though if that man didn't show up, would they really be able to outrun Dolarhyde? They did have home advantage and a headstart so that is something I guess.

 

Will tells Walter he doesn't want to kill Dolarhyde but catch him so he can be treated in a mental hospital. Walter reveals he found out that Will has been in a mental hospital. Will asks him if this is bothering him because he married his mother. Walter's reply to that is "then you shouldn't put this guy in a mental hospital, you should kill him".. Ouch. That pretty much came off as a "I hate you, wish you were dead!" to Will, too. 

 

 

Molly called Will a sweet man, and now Dolarhyde is all happy because Reba called him a sweet man. Nice parallel, show!

 

Loved Hannibal hanging up on Dolarhyde, saying "they are listening", just when he was being so emotional. It was like he was saying "I am bored, and got what I wanted anyway, so not playing anymore" to everyone - Jack, Alana, Francis. hee!

 

When Molly talked about seeing Will's picture in a magazine and knowing it was him, I am guessing she means she knew it was Dolarhyde in their house? But it mostly feels like there was a scene they skipped...

 

I am happy that Will pointed out he knew what he was doing when he accepted to go back.  Not so happy that it is Hannibal (I assume) that he will think of anytime he looks at Molly now. Hannibal sure knows how to push his buttons.

[Tippi Blevins]

When Molly talked about seeing Will's picture in a magazine and knowing it was him, I am guessing she means she knew it was Dolarhyde in their house? But it mostly feels like there was a scene they skipped...

 

 

I think she meant she saw one of Freddie's articles/pictures of Will. 

 

Not so happy that it is Hannibal (I assume) that he will think of anytime he looks at Molly now. Hannibal sure knows how to push his buttons.

 

 

He's seeing her through the Red Dragon's eyes, is what I was assuming. A couple of episodes ago, he had that sweaty nightmare about standing over her corpse as if he'd killed her himself. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SrmJBkqwVc

[arjumand]

Come to think of it, when book Hannibal sent Dolarhyde to kill Will's family, I think he knew Will would not be there as he was in another city or something? (the family were in Florida?)

 

 

The thing is, everyone's relationships are different in the book, and Dolarhyde and Hannibal's is not an exception.

 

In the book, Hannibal sends the "Save yourself, kill them all", message, along with Will's address much earlier in the storyline, and it doesn't seem as personal as in the show. Show = telephone conversation, book = coded message in a personal ad (and that's why Hannibal snarked about it earlier in the episode). So the book message seems colder, and not really what Dolarhyde was after, and he ignores it at first (also, he's not impressed by Hannibal not really seeming interested in his "becoming", and perhaps even trying to use him. Him, the Great Red Dragon! The nerve!).

Then, when things come to a head in his story (and he never meets Will Graham), and the readers think it's all over, is when he uses the info Hannibal gave him. And by that time, Will has gone back to his family. So yes, when Hannibal sent the message, Will was not home. But the Hannibal of Red Dragon the book was quite contemptuous of Will, I always thought.

 

I suppose because they've already done the "wheelchair in flames" thing in another season, they won't do it here? Sulk. I guess that's the problem with making Freddy Lounds a woman, you can't do the "Do you SEE?" scene anymore, at least not on tv. Though it's been parodied, so I guess Fuller thought it wouldn't be that scary anymore.

 

I liked this episode, though whoever said it was too dark, was absolutely right. There's an Aussie podcast about movies and comic book stuff I love to listen to, and I can just imagine one of the guys yelling TURN THE LIGHT ON! at Bryan Fuller at intervals.

 

And just once, just once in my life, when I see on tv or in a movie a man saying to a woman "I have to break up with you, because I'll hurt you," I would like the woman to say: "Do you mean metaphorically, or are you a serial killer / werewolf / vampire? Because if it's one of the latter, no problemo, brosef. Oh look, is that the time?" (runs away so fast that she leaves woman-shaped hole in the wall).

 

I mean, I know that Reba is blind, and she can't see his facial expressions, but she managed to glean so much from the way he speaks, so why can't she see (sorry) that he's, if not a serial killer, fucking weird?

Edited August 15, 2015 by arjumand

[kmm49]

I mean, I know that Reba is blind, and she can't see his facial expressions, but she managed to glean so much from the way he speaks, so why can't she see (sorry) that he's, if not a serial killer, fucking weird?

She's so lonely. Where are her family and friends? He might be the only person who has shown her any interest in a long time and even though she can't see him she sure can feel him. He's fucking hot! Armitage has a great body/face!​

Edited August 15, 2015 by kmm49

[Captanne]

Just an aside, Hannibal also snarked about the "message on toilet paper" which we don't see in the series other than the snarky reference.  Dolarhyde bites the toilet paper note before sending it and it's through the imprint that they know he's their man.  (The dental work matches the bites on the bodies.)

 

It's been a while since I read the book -- that memory is from Manhunter.

 

kmm49, isn't Reba relatively new to town?  I don't recall.  I thought that's why she's on her own.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Captanne

[ElectricBoogaloo]

And just once, just once in my life, when I see on tv or in a movie a man saying to a woman "I have to break up with you, because I'll hurt you," I would like the woman to say: "Do you mean metaphorically, or are you a serial killer / werewolf / vampire? Because if it's one of the latter, no problemo, brosef. Oh look, is that the time?" (runs away so fast that she leaves woman-shaped hole in the wall).

Ha, no kidding! "Do you mean you don't want to hurt my feelings or are you afraid that you might accidentally murder me? I mean, I'm ready to end this either way, but just for the sake of clarity."

[Captanne]

Arjumand

 

I suppose because they've already done the "wheelchair in flames" thing in another season, they won't do it here? Sulk. I guess that's the problem with making Freddy Lounds a woman, you can't do the "Do you SEE?" scene anymore, at least not on tv. Though it's been parodied, so I guess Fuller thought it wouldn't be that scary anymore.

 

I, too, am confused about why they elected to do Freddie's story in this order.

 

Why can't they do the "do you see" bit with her?  I'm not sure I understand the why's of that statement.  Do you mean because of the order they've done it in (which, yes, would make it impossible) or is there some "she's a girl" reference that I'm missing?

 

edited for HTML jiggery

Edited August 15, 2015 by Captanne

[DeadlyEuphoric]

I think she meant she saw one of Freddie's articles/pictures of Will. 

 

 

He's seeing her through the Red Dragon's eyes, is what I was assuming. A couple of episodes ago, he had that sweaty nightmare about standing over her corpse as if he'd killed her himself. 

 

Oh yes, I remember Will's nightmare, but I thought their conversation meant now, because of the attack, he was seeing Molly in a different way, apart from his usual "I am the killer" nightmares.

 

Just an aside, Hannibal also snarked about the "message on toilet paper" which we don't see in the series other than the snarky reference.  Dolarhyde bites the toilet paper note before sending it and it's through the imprint that they know he's their man.  (The dental work matches the bites on the bodies.)

 

I just loved that they snarked about the ways the books had Dolarhyde and Hannibal communicating! though I must admit I did like the whole code deciphering and uncovering what was written in the torn part of the toilet paper messages scenes in Red Dragon.

 

I saw in tumblr many people pointing out Hannibal telling Dolarhyde that he can choose to keep Reba alive, that he doesn't need to worry about feeling love for her, probably parallels his own feelings regarding Will. That may just be right. Hannibal initially did spare Will's life when he gutted him just right to make him survive as he liked the world better with him in it and since the head sawing, has saved Will, chose to turn himself in rather than harm Will when he got rejected again, and actually upgraded Will to "family" status...

Edited August 16, 2015 by DeadlyEuphoric

[Primetimer]

Toxic twosomes on Hannibal.

Read the story

[AimingforYoko]

Go Molly! Will married up. I love when people don't act like idiots in a crisis.

Heh, Hannibal pissed everybody off, he's been pretty much reduced to human troll at this point. I can't believe they took his toilet. You know Hannibal's not going to be the one to clean that up.

[MisterGlass]

Definite references to The Shining in Molly and Walter's flight.  I thought she might die in the process, but Molly did well in saving them.  I thought Will was going to come unglued when he saw Jack sitting with Walter.

 

Will is starting to seem desperate, and past behavior suggests that desperate Will does desperate things.

 

The shift in Francis's behavior to a more direct dual personality situation played well.  It's a simple thing but the dragon personality doesn't lisp, and speaks much more clearly than Francis.  Francis attacking himself was creepy.

 

I took Hannibal hanging up on Francis as a either a desire to protect Francis as a pet or to save him as a topic of conversation with Will.  I like the use of the phone to have a way of supporting their imagined sessions in Hannibal's office, and the little dig at the old means of communications is fun.  It's also a workable change to have Francis taking the film himself to watch later.  It's worth noting that Francis owes Hannibal for the warning, and that the last person Hannibal warned was Garrett Jacob Hobbs.

 

It does look as though Alana is headed for a Chilton-esque ending.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Loved that Molly was clear headed enough to get herself and her son out of there safely. It seemed way too coincidental that there was a car driving down the road in the middle of the night. I wonder how much further she was able to drive after being shot. When I first saw the blood splatter, I was afraid Walter had been shot.

[bmoore4026]

I sometimes found the sound  a bit quiet or muffled and I had trouble picking up some dialogue.

 

Well, that's how the series is.

[Neurochick]

I always use closed captions when I watch this show.

[Ms Lark]

After looking at the last couple of episodes I'm wondering where Fuller could've gone if the show wasn't cancelled. I can see an end of the road now unfortunately though.

Same here. With Mads sidelined into a bit part and without free range Hannibal in his natty suits and without the wonderful sets and Janice Poon's amazing food styling, the show seems to have lost its magic. We're on overly familiar ground (two movies later) and if it went on like this another season, I might just slip away myself. Not the fault of Bryan Fuller or the cast, but of the books themselves. Where could we go to get back the interesting first two seasons?

 

This ep just felt like a typical procedural. Let's hope Hanni escapes within the next two.

 

ETA: As for the darkness, I made a custom setting on my TV specifically for Hannibal. Works for other "dark" shows, too. This whole "working dark" thing all started with Angel ages ago. That was the first show I remember having to lighten up settings-wise and it caught on from there.

Edited August 16, 2015 by Ms Lark

[supposebly]

 

This ep just felt like a typical procedural.

 

THAT's what bothered me! I was wondering why I didn't like this episode all that much. Although when Hannibal sicced Dollarhyde on Molly, I did yell at him.

 

Why I was shocked and appalled, I really don't know.

 

I know almost nothing of the source material or the movies but it's starting to feel like typical serial killer stuff. Even Dollarhyde feels like I've seen someone like him before. Not the show's fault, just the age of its material and the numerous copies and similar topics. Maybe it's a good thing it's ending unless Fuller wanted to move away from the source.

 

I'm glad Molly and Walter made it out alive although Walter might not forgive Will all that easily.

 

I worry about Alana a lot these days. Taking away Hannibal's dignity will not go unpunished, I'm sure.

[Tippi Blevins]

I think part of the reason I'm not feeling the Red Dragon story is that I feel like they already went there with the Randall Tier story in season 2. Guy "evolving" into some "higher/true" self, savaging people, being advised by Hannibal and sent to Will's home. That story moved faster and the focus was more on Hannibal and Will, who are the ones I find interesting in this series. All the focus on Francis and Reba, I just can't get into them much. 

Edited August 16, 2015 by Tippi Blevins

[kmm49]

This ep just felt like a typical procedural.

 

Yes, but not necessarily a bad thing after the first half of the season. My main concern's even though Armitage has done an amazing job with what he's been given I'm slightly disappointed his character isn't more scary. I guess scary's the word. The first episode he was introduced was amazing and then it went downhill for me. His scenes with Reba aren't potent and the best scenes he's had so far are with a painting and Will. Maybe my hopes were raised because I kept hearing how great The Red Dragon book was. I just think we're probably not getting the full story due to time constraints.

 

 

All the focus on Francis and Reba, I just can't get into them much.

 

Not sure why we're supposed to care about Francis and Reba. Their scenes are just okay and has taken the monster out of Francis which's much more interesting than the trying to be human side of him.

 

I knew Molly and her son were only going to be used to be put in peril. It's hard to care what happens to them. BUT they make Will human in the few scenes they have which is what I care about.

 

With Mads sidelined into a bit part and without free range Hannibal in his natty suits and without the wonderful sets and Janice Poon's amazing food styling, the show seems to have lost its magic.

Hannibal's constrained too much now that he's in a sanitorium but I was hoping we'd get more mind palace scenes but yeah the food scenes I miss. His scenes with Will in the last couple of episodes have been just okay. They've previously been great.

Edited August 16, 2015 by kmm49

[Snookums]

Unbelievable that Hannibal can tell The Red Dragon to kill Will's family over the phone that was never monitored! So the FBI only listened when Hannibal told them too?

 

 

Legally they can't listen in on an attorney's calls. And of course they weren't aware at the time it was Francis getting some creative therapy.

 

Leading up to that, where will asks Hannibal, "You're willing to let a family die?" Why is he surprised by that?

 

 

I actually shrieked "WILL!" in sheer frustration at that line! Dude, do you even go here??? What the hell does this guy have to do to convince you he is a bad boyfriend? Bedelia was right to gaze at you in bobblehead contempt.

Edited August 16, 2015 by Snookums

[jeansheridan]

I loved how grounded this episode felt. The hospital felt like a real place. Molly and Walter at the vet felt realistic. And then all hell breaks loose on her. I do wish the choreography of that scene had been better. Sharper.

I loved seeing Will angry at Jack. Jack is using him. Will should be pissed off. And yeah he does seem a step behind Hannibal now but after 3 years that makes sense to me. I think Mads still anchors the show. We are all waiting to see what Hannibal will do.

I wanted to see Will investigating more. I hoped we would see him walk through the crime scene at his own home.

Hannibal is a terrible ex.

[arjumand]

Arjumand

 

 

I, too, am confused about why they elected to do Freddie's story in this order.

 

Why can't they do the "do you see" bit with her?  I'm not sure I understand the why's of that statement.  Do you mean because of the order they've done it in (which, yes, would make it impossible) or is there some "she's a girl" reference that I'm missing?

 

edited for HTML jiggery

 

What I meant was - the wheelchair in flames thing was always Dolarhyde in the book and movies, because it was his grandmother's wheelchair, but now they've done it, and so they're not going to repeat this image, so that's out.

 

About the "Do you see?" bit, I was thinking that they could separate it from the wheelchair and have the body found in another way, but I do think they'd be hesitant to do all that (really heavy torture and mutilation which I don't feel like going into right now) to a woman, on tv. Maybe if this was Saw or Hostel, but not on a tv show. Even in Dolaryde's own murders, the camera cuts away when he's doing stuff to the kids and the woman. And in Florence, we never saw what Hannibal did to the professor's wife, and we were just told that she vanished.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't need to see it. Just that they've written themselves into a corner, unless they never intended to have female Freddy Lounds die.

[Snookums]

The thing I liked best about this one was how Hannibal's veneer is wearing so thin, and Will's realization that you can't move on and still stay in the orbit of someone like Lector. It's one or the other.

 

Now, granted, Hannibal certainly makes it hard to forget him, but he's the quintessential, "look in the dictionary and see his picture", Edward Cullen to the nth degree Darth Vader Boyfriend. He's devoted his existence to a weird kind of immortality; that is, he sees immortality as a defiance of all life by living on in the forever warped, changed lives of the trail of damaged people he has encountered and twisted, made worse, shaped into frames for himself. His real goal is is taking the place of all good memories, of all independent life and choices of the people he encounters. He wants them to be his vessels, his bearers, his objects. 

 

When Will comes to see him the first time in this episode, Hannibal's bitterness and scorn are vivid in the air. He's a banked and smoky fire without the proper oxygen to flare forth (no wonder the Dragon amuses him) as he realizes that Will has actually semi-slid from his grip, has a new set of experiences and memories and happiness that very pointedly excludes him. Good things are slippery. Hard to hold onto.

 

And he's so pissed off that he just sics Francis onto Molly and Walter, in the pettiest moment we've ever seen from him. That wasn't part of the minuet these two have established, it was a straight up kneecapping out of sheer, id-motivated spite. I don't know if Hannibal thought Francis would succeed or not or if he really thought Will would run back to him if he had, but that was the point--he didn't care. He was so mad and helpless and sullen and petulant that he just didn't care if Will came back or not, as long as he was hurt. 

 

It takes Will an unforgivably long time to grasp this (granted, he's been out of the game for three years and is still semi under the "It's different with me" spell that Hannibal casts over everybody he deals with,, and Jack and Alana both made the same mistake) but finally, FINALLY, sitting with Molly, who is still Molly, still joking, still caring, still refusing to blame him, who encountered evil and emerged still herself, he gets it.

 

You can't escape Hannibal Lector unless you give him up. Completely up. You can't keep a few mementos in  your head as a "warning", or go to see him on a "professional" basis. You can't keep blaming your dissolving and longing to give up on him. You can't accuse him of trying to take your new loved ones when you know perfectly well that he's the ultimate One Man Guy. You can't dabble in him, flirt with his edges, balance at his precipice because he's going to fuck with you the way he always has. 

 

Hannibal doesn't change. Not for Will, not for anyone. The only way to survive him is to quit falling for his line that he'll change, he'll change for you.

[MrsR]

Well Fuller has painted himself into a corner here. He used up the good Freddie stuff in the previous season. Now he's really boggling  all the Red Dragon stuff up.

 

Interesting that people find this to be annoying because it's all procedural.  In fact Red Dragon the novel was the first in depth procedural crime novel and it was the section where Dolarhyde communicates with Hannibal via toilet paper and the FBI figures it all out and finds Hannibal's message to Dolarhyde that really inspired all the interest in procedural novels that eventually led to  the CSI shows. Remember William Peterson played Will Graham the investigator and later created a show where he played Gil Grissom the investigator.

 

It really was an especially captivating section in the book because it had a ticking time element to it and because Hannibal's behavior is misunderstood and eventually has a critical and tragic payoff.

 

But it also makes me interested in how Fuller will conclude this mess he's created.

 

I don't like a pissy Hannibal.

[jeansheridan]

Deadly Euphoric, when this show is over, I will miss your epic posts!

 

I also realized how so many people in Will's life is trying to make him kill someone now. Jack wanted him to kill Hannibal and I am sure has no problem with him killing Dolarhyde or Hannibal. Bedelia tells him to kill Dolarhyde and IMO she is also hoping he will kill Hannibal too. Even little Walter tells him to kill Dolarhyde. And of courser there is Hannibal, who just generally wants him to kill, he is not really picky about it at all. Quite the way to go from "Will is not a killer" in S1. Alana remains the only "killing is bad" person in all this and seemed to not approve of Jack wanting Dolarhyde to commit suicide too....

I appreciated Alana's appalled look at Jack when Jack said he was happy if Dolarhyde committed suicide.  I also liked how careful Will was with Walter (one should always be careful with a Walter (White)).  His careful body language was interesting.  A father would hug his traumatized son.  Will can't quite make that leap or be that demanding. 

 

Since we're pretty much spoiling the Red Dragon book, Molly is the one who saves the day by blasting Francis with shotgun.  Molly is kind of efficiently kickass in the book despite having almost no "page" time.  So I was hoping this Molly would have a shotgun.  I'm still not convinced her plan of count to a 100 and then run works for me.  I'd tell my kid to run run run and don't look back.  But he is 11  I guess it is a miracle he stayed silent when she shushed him. 

 

I kind of wish they had gotten away by boat.  There's no way Francis could have shot them easily in the dark.  And we know they go fishing, so I'm assuming there's a boat somewhere nearby.  I just kind of like it when people get away due to their own knowledge of the area and not the randomness of a car passing by.

 

How cute is Will mentioning that all the dogs were okay and he was gonna get them ASAP?  That kind of practical detail just charms me.  Plus the producers on the show have mentioned they know the dogs are untouchable!  Hee.  Kill and maim all the humans in the world, but leave the pack alone! 

[jeansheridan]

 

t takes Will an unforgivably long time to grasp this (granted, he's been out of the game for three years and is still semi under the "It's different with me" spell that Hannibal casts over everybody he deals with,, and Jack and Alana both made the same mistake) but finally, FINALLY, sitting with Molly, who is still Molly, still joking, still caring, still refusing to blame him, who encountered evil and emerged still herself, he gets it.

 

You can't escape Hannibal Lector unless you give him up. Completely up. You can't keep a few mementos in  your head as a "warning", or go to see him on a "professional" basis. You can't keep blaming your dissolving and longing to give up on him. You can't accuse him of trying to take your new loved ones when you know perfectly well that he's the ultimate One Man Guy.

All so true.  I love that Molly admitted it was going to take her time to process.  I also love that Will didn't crowd her.  I know earlier I said I wanted to see him investigating more, but after the attack, I love that he just stops and sits with her until she wakes up.  But he doesn't crowd her.  No kisses.  No hand holding.  Just ...Walter is okay (physically) and the dogs are okay.  And ...numbness.  No tears.  No, "I love you".  They don't work that way, these two. 

 

Fuller might have blown the Reba casting, but he did not blow Molly.  With almost no screen time, she's fantastic in my eyes.  Grounded, smart, funny, and wears sensible shoes. 

[Ms Lark]

Interesting that people find this to be annoying because it's all procedural.  In fact Red Dragon the novel was the first in depth procedural crime novel and it was the section where Dolarhyde communicates with Hannibal via toilet paper and the FBI figures it all out and finds Hannibal's message to Dolarhyde that really inspired all the interest in procedural novels that eventually led to  the CSI shows. Remember William Peterson played Will Graham the investigator and later created a show where he played Gil Grissom the investigator.

Thank you for the reminder. I read Red Dragon back when it came out over 30-odd years ago and had completely forgotten it was the first procedural! Although now, unfortunately, procedural has been done to death and it doesn't hold up as "fresh & new!" anymore. So the show suffers. Which is a  shame. I miss the dark whimsey and amazing production values that are Fuller's trademarks.

[mertensia]

I have to say Laurence Fishburn is perfect as Jack.

I'm guessing Alana's pettiness will get her killed.

[AttackTurtle]

I was thrilled that they switched up the story from the book. The story's been done to death. As some have pointed out the relationship b/t Will and Hannibal is so much deeper on the show than it was in the book and movies, the fact that Hannibal sent Dolarhyde after Will's family makes much more sense. Anyways, I'm excited to see what other changes are in store.

[Chaos Theory]

As someone who thought the first half of the season was brilliant I was a little nervous about the Red Dragon story. It has been done to death and I hate procedurals. However this works for me for the most part. I do think they miscast Reba but not horribly so. Reba and Dolarhyde lack chemistry.

I really am enjoying Alana this season. I liked the line "you are not the only one who keeps their promises." It was petty as hell and will probably get her killed but it was a nice excuse to get Hsnnibal into the crazy person mask.

i do however like his version Molly.

[Bruinsfan]

Francis saying Will wasn't very handsome. Good God, man! How high are your standards?!

Seriously. Fuller, remember it's Reba that's blind, not Francis!

 

In the book, didn't Hannibal send the dragon after Will and his family? It seemed to me that this time he was basically aiming the dragon only at Will's wife and kid

Yeah, but book Hannibal was pissed off at being caught and confined thanks to Will, whereas show Hannibal willingly chose that route. The movie versions would have been just fine with Will dying at Dolarhyde's hands; I'd imagine nothing but the personal touch would do for this version's murder husband.

[attica]

I would happily watch many more minutes of Richard Armitage doing nearly naked handstands. But to have them followed up with him beating the shit out of himself was so very very funny. Also awesome were the two Hannibals dispensing such kindly/murderous therapy. (The return of the Windsor Knot! Yaaaaaay!)

 

Dancy and Ariande have just tons of chemistry. Hoo boy. Especially notable since Molly is mostly such a trope character, the Penelope to his Odysseus.

 

Kid watching baseball with all that snow on the ground? Unless it's Winter League, probably not.

 

I coveted Alana's entire outfit. Good tailoring, show!

[sluggish neko]

Hey, Will and Molly now have matching bullet wounds! Someone's going to be jealous. Hannibal really is going stir-crazy with his petty and mean little games.. like a lion pacing back and forth in a cage. Maybe it's the lack of the fabulous food prep scenes or Hannibal's snazzy dinner parties, but the show feels like it lacks something with Hannibal stuck behind bars/glass. I miss the grand mind games of Season 2.

[Captanne]

I wonder if Hannibal is second-guessing his "brilliant" idea to let himself be captured?