S03.E11: ...And The Beast From The Sea

[Actionmage]

Snookums? Love the post.

 

I don't like a pissy Hannibal.

 

I don't think anyone does.

 

As for Alana? She had to keep her promise. Otherwise she looks weaker to Hannibal. Also to the others in the hospital. Taking over from Chilton had to be hard, with his history of 'Do what I/ The Rules say, until I say differently. And keep it quiet.'  Hannibal is a grown-ass cannibal who knew the potential outcome of is actions.  I see no pettiness on Alana's part.  Hannibal was abetting a murderer. Now he sicced that murderer on Will's family. Three years of playing nice earned him a warning, which he did not heed. Enjoy your bucket, Very Learned Man.

 

Molly is quite awesome. Her plan to get out was so good,  except for the almost dying part.  I hope Molly gets her husband back and greets Jack with a cross and garlic, if he ever sets foot at the house again.

[Snookums]

I would happily watch many more minutes of Richard Armitage doing nearly naked handstands. But to have them followed up with him beating the shit out of himself was so very very funny.

 

 

I loved that! It reminded me of the similar scene in Fight Club, where the lead was played by Edward Norton...who played Will Graham in Red Dragon!

 

(cue *It's A Small World After All* music)

[Tippi Blevins]

During the self-fight scene, NBC tweeted something like Francis was taking a game of "stop hitting yourself" too seriously. I almost replied he should be hitting NBC for canceling the show.

[mledawn]

It wasn't NBC itself, it was the official twitter account for the show, which has the handle of @NBCHannibal. It's probably staffed by someone on the show

[MrsR]

 

Enjoy your bucket, Very Learned Man.

Oh but he doesn't get a bucket. He gets what they call in institutions, "dignity pants."

 

He truly is a pissy Hannibal.

 

Since we are somewhat spoiling the books, let me say that with Molly out of the picture now she won't be the one to knock off Dolarhyde. Unless he comes at her in the hospital.

 

It kind of ruins the symmetry of the books because in each one a woman dispatches a serial killer at the end. Molly, Clarice and Margot. But I suppose they could give the honor this time to Reba.

 

Now for controversy, in the book Hannibal gives the address of the Graham family to Dolarhyde in a coded classified ad. But leaves enough evidence behind for the FBI to find it and decode it. Dolarhyde concludes that this was a trap and decides that Hannibal betrayed him. But later he uses the info to strike back but only after he's concocted an elaborate red herring of a scene which fools the FBI. Fuller doesn't seem to be going in this direction.

Edited August 16, 2015 by MrsR

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Going Pair-Shaped / Toxic twosomes on Hannibal.

[saber5055]

So what happened to the driver of Molly's getaway car?

 

Alana ... what a gigantic dumb ass for telling Hannibal she knows the jig is up with the fake lawyer phone calls. The heck? Don't say anything at all, you Dumb Ass, and just tap the phone so you can trace it next call. Geez. To quote Bugs Bunny, "What a maroon."

 

And Red Dragon is calling from Hannibal's office? Why would his lawyer be calling from HANNIBAL'S office? Wouldn't he have his own phone, office, caller ID?

 

What did that notice say on the wall of the vet's office, right by the door as Molly left? The camera sort of zoomed in on it, but I couldn't read it.

 

Feeding all those dogs canned food ... please. The dogs would have passed out from diarrhea. It would make more sense for her to buy a 50lb. bag of kibble. No canned food that I'm aware of is made in China. No kibble, either. Rawhide and jerky treats are made there, and can contain arsenic and other toxic things. But food? Not so much. But the show needed an out to indicate Dragon gave the dogs something to poison them without showing the dogs. So, China got to take the heat, even if it was fake heat (for a fake show!).

 

Did Francis tell Reba he had to break up because he was afraid he would MURDER her? If so: Ouch.

 

Surprised Molly didn't have a big old shotgun in that rustic cabin, obviously in the north woods somewhere. 

[thuganomics85]

Damn, Francis poisoned the dogs!  Even Hannibal knew that was line you didn't want to cross on this show.  At least they all seem fine now, although I bet they aren't going to eat any more food, unless they see Daddy Will making it himself.  Not surprised that Hannibal's plan was to sick Francis on Molly and Walter, because he wants his boyfriend all to himself.  Credit to Molly though for thwarting it, although not to go all "right to bare arms" here, but maybe if you live in a cabin in the wilderness and your husband is hunting down a psycho, you should at least think about investing in a weapon.

 

That said, man, do I feel bad for the nameless guy who just happened to stumble upon them.  Did they recover the poor guy's body? He picked the absolute worst time to go for a late night drive.

 

Hannibal has now just given up on even trying to hide his feeling from everyone, and just helped Francis escape Jack and the FBI. So, Alana is keeping her word and took all the nice things from his cell (including the telephone!)  Nice to see Hannibal get punished, even though I still think this means he'll get the upper hand in the final episodes.

 

Francis breaks it off with Reba, because he doesn't want to hurt her.  If this is it for that pairing, then I'm not sure what the point of it was.  Was it just suppose to show Francis trying to be more human?  I just don't feel like it led to anything I didn't already know about him.  Would have rather focused more on how he became the way he was or, at the risk of sounding violent, seen him to do another murder, in order to really build up how dangerous he is.  Also, I didn't notice the teeth thing during his break-in, but I did think the cloth around his eyes made him look like the outfit Matt wore on Netflix's Daredevil, so I kept wondering if Francis just finished binge watching that or something.  Then again, is Francis even down with streaming services, because he seems like a film only kind of guy.

 

Will and Molly clearly are destined for each other since both realize what an asshole Jack can be.

 

I have to think Francis' line about Will not being handsome was from the books and Fuller put in here to fuck with everyone, because if Will isn't considered handsome, I wonder what kind of standards is Francis using in that department.

[Neurochick]

As I watch this season, I'm fine with it not having a fourth season.  I have no idea what a fourth season would be like.  I mean, they can't do Silence of the Lambs.  So what would happen?  Would Hannibal escape again?  That would annoy me, though it is interesting to see Red Dragon and Hannibal in reverse order.

 

In my mind, there are two ways I'd like the series to end.  One is Will tells Hannibal that he's done with him this time, Will's taking his family away, changing their names and fuck you Hannibal.  Hannibal looks into Will's eyes and realizes that Will is serious and the show ends with Hannibal standing there, staring at nothing, he might look all cool, but inside he's gutted.

 

The second way is for Francis to be captured alive and now he's the serial killer star and Hannibal's just old news and no one gives a shit about him anymore; then Alana tells him he's yesterday's new and all the fanboys are writing Francis now.  

 

I have to confess, sometimes when I see Hannibal, I imagine Rihanna approaching him with a chain saw saying, "bitch better have my money."

[Bruinsfan]

I get that Alana had to maintain discipline, but reminding Hannibal about his promise to kill you as you're taking his toilet away strikes me as a failure of the self-preservation instinct.

 

I like that the tattoos they're using for the show really resemble the Blake painting that Dolarhyde was fixated on. Not to look gift bareassed Ralph Fiennes in the mouth, but the tattoos in Red Dragon looked a bit too bargain basement for something that a rich psychopath obsessed with early 19th century Romantic poetry and paintings would get to symbolize his transcendence of humanity.

Edited August 16, 2015 by Bruinsfan

[Captanne]

Didn't Hannibal feed Will's dogs human flesh?  In front of Will?  Or am I remembering wrong.  (I binged the first two seasons so some parts of them blur together.)

 

I admit, I was also baffled as to why Francis bothered getting into Hannibal's office only to imitate Hannibal's lawyer.  If he was able to jimmy the caller ID, why bother with Hannibal's office line at all?  

 

The only thing that did, in the meta, was to show us he had probably been a client of Hannibal's.  (Only, not necessarily.  An "avid fan" would surely stalk Hannibal's digs.)

Edited August 16, 2015 by Captanne

[jeansheridan]

Saber, dog food is made in China. All the inexpensive brands are imported from there. At least that is true on the west coast.

Francis rigged the caller id. The tech guys explained it. I think he just wanted to see Hannibal' s office. He is a superfan after all. Although that office must be an expensive piece of real estate. Details I shouldn't worry about.

Hannibal has fed the dogs lots of mystery meat and Mason' s face. The dogs seemed fine. Meat is meat.

I have no idea how Fuller will end this. But I put money on a bloody and battered Will.

Edited August 17, 2015 by jeansheridan

[MrsRafaelBarba]

I'm going to miss this show.

Edited August 17, 2015 by MrsRafaelBarba

[TattleTeeny]

I liked this episode, though whoever said it was too dark, was absolutely right. There's an Aussie podcast about movies and comic book stuff I love to listen to, and I can just imagine one of the guys yelling TURN THE LIGHT ON! at Bryan Fuller at intervals.

 

Oh my god, I am so dumb! When I read the original post, I took "dark" as being figurative, regarding the subject matter! I spent a good minute wondering how a else story like this could be -- certainly not lighthearted material! Oy.

Edited August 17, 2015 by TattleTeeny

[Fen]

Yes - I'm also confused as to why Alana tipped Hannibal off about the phone calls.  Why not just let him keep doing it and listen in?

 

Molly's line about good things being slippery was very similar to Gideon's from Futamono:

 

“Hard to have anything, Dr. Lecter. Rare to get it, hard to keep it. A damn slippery life.”

 

Not sure what that parallel might mean.  In this episode, it did not bode good things for Will's marriage for me.  Nor did Walter turning away from him, and commenting that it would be better to kill Francis than it would to put him in hospital (after just talking about Will being in a mental hospital).

 

Will's response to Walter learning about his past was weird: 'I just had to justify myself to an 11 year old'.  What?  That just made him sound pissy.  Yes - you have to justify yourself to him, Will - because you didn't tell him the truth and he's frightened because his mother married a guy who sounds a lot like the guy who just tried to murder them.

 

I like Molly as a character - but I'm still not feeling the bond between her and Will.  Maybe because we keep being shown Will as separate from the rest of the family?  I don't know - but I'm not getting a connection there. 

 

Hannibal's hunger (puns and innuendo intended) for Will is almost at a new height. He thinks his new life is a sham.

 

British - so not familiar with guns - but would Americans in a rural property like that not be likely to have a gun?  Or - even if you did - would you not use it in that situation?

Edited August 17, 2015 by Fen

[Tippi Blevins]

I thought Hannibal's mask looked kind of like a cartoon cat face and tweeted a "slight" edit to highlight this. Then Bryan Fuller saw it. Now I like to think my terrible picture is part of his memory palace.

[MisterGlass]

I didn't realize others were disappointed in this episode.  I thought it was one of the better ones of the season.  The dynamic is different between Hannibal and Will, but Hannibal's actions in the earlier part of the season were a bridge too far for Will, who finally made a choice to change the situation, and they cannot go backward.  The stark scenery emphasizes it.  Hannibal is not just missing his person suit, he's missing all his camouflage.  I still find the scenes on either side of the glass interesting and intense.  In this episode, there were twists from the novel to keep it interesting and Hannibal's actions carry a lot of additional meaning.  I think by following Red Dragon by the book this far, Fuller can twist what comes next in any way he chooses.  I almost wonder if the Red Dragon storyline was meant to stretch into the next season, if there was one.

 

I also expected Molly to have a shotgun, but then it occurred to me she might be a responsible gun owner with a gun safe, and it might be in the opposite direction from Walter.

 

I see no reason why Freddie would not die horribly because she's female.  I haven't forgotten slide-mounted Beverly.  If she's interrogated by Francis the tenor will be different, but there is no reason it wouldn't occur unless there are other plans for Freddie.  But I see Will going to her in real bitterness and hate now.  Perhaps he'll malign Hannibal into the bargain.

 

 

I wonder if Hannibal is second-guessing his "brilliant" idea to let himself be captured?

 

I do not think Hannibal regrets any deliberate decision.  He made his choice and took his chance, and for a while the situation was acceptable.  Now he is considering his other options.

[Bruinsfan]

Also relevant, Tippi:

[Texasmom1970]

Does it make me a bad person that I was more concerned about D hurting Will's dogs than his wife and stepson?

[Actionmage]

Does it make me a bad person that I was more concerned about D hurting Will's dogs than his wife and stepson?

 

Nope; we've spent more time with the Pack and they have all been menaced too.  With The Pack, we figured someone might hurt them to hurt Will and we weren't sure how they would fare. While I enjoy Molly with each appearance, she and Walter are there to be hurt to hurt Will and if they didn't survive, Will would still break up with his cannibal.

 

Personally, I am glad Molly survived. I was honestly expecting her to die and then Walter to go back to his dad/ relative(s) that haven't stayed in a mental institution.

 

Also, how supremely sure that Will only sees either himself or The Great Red Dragon when he looks at Molly! Because she is some wilted flower that can't come back from this horrid encounter and potentially build more (and happier) moments with Will?  It may be that kind of discounting of Molly that spurs me to root for Molly and Will to survive this as a couple.  It also strikes me as how Hannibal is off his game, unless he was able to check into Molly's background before his privileges were revoked. Hannibal seems to be guessing at how best to undermine the marriage solely on Will's side and despite knowing that Will's work isolation will end.  Hannibal seems to discount the slimmest possibility that Will talks to Molly regularly ( secrets or not) and that she won't find Will worth keeping as a husband.  Because blaming your husband, the FBI consultant, for adult murderers trying to kill you is every wife's go-to move. ( Molly totally has grounds for anger and 'Really? No heads up? Asshat', but she is one of the rare-for-TV wives who seems to understand that being an FBI-adjacent person is dangerous at times. She deserved a heads up, but that doesn't make Will the worst. husband. ever. At least, not TV-wise, imo.)  

 

I sort of would love it if a very cool chamber-music version of Taylor Swift's " We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together" would play under some scene(s) with Will and Hannibal.

[TattleTeeny]

Definite references to The Shining in Molly and Walter's flight.

 

YES! I thought that too!

 

I juts watched Manhunter again today. I never realized how little that movie touches on any Red Dragon (the paining) references. It showed the tree carving, but that's it; it could have been done without even that because that one mention didn't shed light on anything. Also, names were spelled differently: Lecktor and Dollarhyde (two Ls).

[jeansheridan]

Just wanted to add I loved Will talking about Francis eating the painting and how...befuddled they all were by that.' As if Hannibal' s.installations weren't nearly so freaky. Of humans can be replaced but a piece of art not so much.

I believe Molly will stick by Will if he meets her halfway. And I feel like he tried. He wasn't as good with Walter. Being a parent isn't a natural thing for him. But he is a superior dog rescurer.

I am not sure he could have given Molly a heads up. He did not clue into Hannibal' s hints. I think Will was trying to compartmentalize but the result was disastrous. Will is at his best when he just accepts how he is and lets the process happen.

[Anela]

I thought Hannibal's mask looked kind of like a cartoon cat face and tweeted a "slight" edit to highlight this. Then Bryan Fuller saw it. Now I like to think my terrible picture is part of his memory palace.

This is hilarious! And the only laugh I've had all day, so thank you for posting that. :) I used to read the posts on twitter, but haven't since it's been on Saturday nights. 

 

I'm surprised that Molly didn't remember that the animals were poisoned before the families were murdered by the serial killer. Didn't Will tell her that he'd adopted the dog? Unless she just wasn't think that the killer would go after her and her son. How far away are they supposed to be from everything else? Dolarhyde just skips around murdering people? This country is *huge*. It would be more believable if it were set in England. Although I guess the States are smaller in the Northeast.

 

I didn't like Will saying that he'd just had to justify himself to a kid. He didn't sound like a father there, and of course he had to: the boy loves his mother! And he was almost killed, as well. Will killed a man in self-defense, and was set up for murder before that. I'm surprised his friend hadn't heard of Hannibal the Cannibal, and that he almost killed Will. 

[joouiie]

I dont think Will's idea of family as a "foreign concept" has really changed that much, which is why he is awkward in all his family interactions that were shown to us. He is using a lot of strength to just let himself be a part of it, but it does not come "naturally" to him - he does not say 'i love you' back to molly, he isnt very physical with either her or Walter: even when he imagines them on the bed together while theyre talking about dog's balls, there's closeness between them, but no real intimacy. The only touching we have seen between them was the neck-cheek brushing at the very start of the GRD arch. 

 

Will does feel "natural" with Hannibal, because the "alone together" thing they have going on is something that does not require his active strength to participate, and he is always accepted as he is. The difference being that Hannibal would prefer (or simply would not care if) the rest of the world outside their bubble to burn, while Will (still) wants to actively protect it - both from Hannibal and from himself. Hugh plays this anguish so well - with both Walter and Molly. He always feels responsible, especially when it involves Hannibal's activity towards that outside world. And Hannibal knows this. He didnt care if D killed Molly and Walter, he knows that the intrusion is enough, and that Will's mind and empathy will do the rest, and Will will start severing his ties to his family. Hannibal knows, or can predict with great enough certainty, that Molly can not be as stable and offer a total of an acceptance of WIll as Hannibal is. In the hospital, Will understands that Molly's promise of still being the same when he does come back is impossible. It will never be possible. When Hannibal asks him what did he see in Molly now, Will knows that Hannibal already knows, he sees the world touched by violence, shaken and ruined and changed by violence that Will (feels) brought with him.    

 

So, of course, Hannibal quotes Faust to WIll ("Two souls, alas, are dwelling in my breast, / And one is striving to forsake its brother"). Faust is the ultimate symbol of not being able to accept your own limitations, and going metaphorically beyond humanity with trying to find ways to overcome them, to the point of contemplating suicide when all tries had failed. Until a literal "beyond humanity" option is presented to him, in the form of Mephistopheles. Those two souls are the ultimate options for Will, and Dolarhyde too (if anything, we can count on Hannibal to always cover many trains/tracks of thought): Dolarhyde is ascending into the Great Red Dragon, and Will must accept that he cannot protect the world, either from Hannibal, or from himself. Will's quiet stream can never be real, it will always be a fantasy of death. His nightmares, on the other hand, will always be more real that anything else in his life. 

[Crossbow]

I watched this with my friends. They wanted to know why Alana anf the FBI told Hannibal what they knew. Why didn't they just keep monitoring his contact? Makes it look like they proritize antagonizing Hannibal over stopping Francis. That's messed up. I mean, the whole reason we HAVE a criminal justice system is to keep people from taking revenge at the expense of the greater good.

[Tippi Blevins]

Also relevant, Tippi:

I can't see the picture but I want to!

[Fen]

Dancy and Ariande have just tons of chemistry. Hoo boy. Especially notable since Molly is mostly such a trope character, the Penelope to his Odysseus.

 

I wish I got this chemistry - but I just don't feel it between them.  I like Molly's character - but Will just feels out of place in his own family to me.  I don't know whether that's deliberate or not.  I think some of that is down to this:

 

I dont think Will's idea of family as a "foreign concept" has really changed that much, which is why he is awkward in all his family interactions that were shown to us. He is using a lot of strength to just let himself be a part of it, but it does not come "naturally" to him - he does not say 'i love you' back to molly, he isnt very physical with either her or Walter: even when he imagines them on the bed together while theyre talking about dog's balls, there's closeness between them, but no real intimacy. The only touching we have seen between them was the neck-cheek brushing at the very start of the GRD arch.

 

I think that it was going to be difficult to effectively sell Will's marriage after spending 2.5 seasons building up a grand twisted soulmate passion thing between Hannibal and Will.  i think the AV Club (Zack Handlen) review hits the nail on the head for me.

 

Will’s homelife seemed a tenuous bond from the start (it’s curious how little time the show has spent trying to establish the importance of his connection to these people; the Will/Hannibal relationship has always been the main focus, to the extent that any other romantic relationship Will might manage was always going to struggle, but here, in comparison to the grand guignol horrors which surround them, Molly and Walter’s normalcy is, well, nice, but not exactly gripping), and now he has to live with the knowledge that his actions inadvertently put them in harm’s way. His anger, to Jack and at Hannibal, is sincere, but maybe also his way of distracting himself from the fact that he, and he alone, brought Lecter back into his life. No one forced him to go to the asylum.

 

Not only have we only had very little to build up Will's new homelife - but almost as soon as we see it for the first time, Will is deliberately putting himself in contact with Hannibal again.

 

As far as I know, Walter's father/Molly's first husband was a baseball player. So Walter tuning Will out to watch some baseball, and Molly waking up to the sound of baseball and that being the first thing she sees etc. all seemed like bad signs for the future of Graham family for me, especially when combined with Molly talking about how good things in life are slippery.

 

Will tells Walter he doesn't want to kill Dolarhyde but catch him so he can be treated in a mental hospital. Walter reveals he found out that Will has been in a mental hospital. Will asks him if this is bothering him because he married his mother. Walter's reply to that is "then you shouldn't put this guy in a mental hospital, you should kill him".. Ouch. That pretty much came off as a "I hate you, wish you were dead!" to Will, too.

 

See - I think all of this should have been sadder, but because I've just not found Will's new life particularly convincing, it lacked emotional impact for me.  Plus - I really do think Will handled Walter poorly at the hospital.  Where'd your empathy go, Will?

 

Jack likes to play games and manipulate, but he's just not as good at it as Hannibal. 

 

I'm sorely missing seeing some of the 'lighter' characters: Chilton and his general ridiculousness, tacky Freddie, Zeller and Price.

 

Will's fruitless appeal to Hannibal to save a family reminded me of Ted Bundy's nonplussed response to detectives who asked him to locate Kimberley Leach's body in order to give the family closure: 'But I'm the most cold-hearted son of a bitch you'll ever meet'.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Fen

[Crossbow]

I really do think Will handled Walter poorly at the hospital.  Where'd your empathy go, Will?

 

Huh. My interpretation was that he handled it badly because he was feeling too much empathy and didn't know what to say. Will is surprisingly bad at talking to people who aren't insane.

[Fen]

Huh. My interpretation was that he handled it badly because he was feeling too much empathy and didn't know what to say. Will is surprisingly bad at talking to people who aren't insane.

 

I kind of felt that had that been the case, his first comment to Jack when he left the room might have been about how scared Walter was, or how worried he was for his mum, instead of 'I just had to justify myself to an 11 year old'  - which really jarred, for me.

[beowoof]

Didn't Hannibal feed Will's dogs human flesh? In front of Will? Or am I remembering wrong. (I binged the first two seasons so some parts of them blur together.)

I admit, I was also baffled as to why Francis bothered getting into Hannibal's office only to imitate Hannibal's lawyer. If he was able to jimmy the caller ID, why bother with Hannibal's office line at all?

The only thing that did, in the meta, was to show us he had probably been a client of Hannibal's. (Only, not necessarily. An "avid fan" would surely stalk Hannibal's digs.)

Once the FBI traced the call they were easily able to tell that it came from Hannibal's office and not the lawyer's. If he had used his home phone, they would know where he lived. Hannibal's office is vacant so it would give him privacy to talk on the phone as long as he wanted, and it helped him feel closer to Hannibal.

[Captanne]

But if they traced it to Hannibal's empty office and someone "claiming to be his lawyer" -- wouldn't they see the illogic?

 

Why not get a burner and you're his lawyer?

 

ETA Sorry to be so dense.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Captanne

[Tippi Blevins]

I don't understand why Hannibal's office is even still a thing. Does he own it in perpetuity? 

[MisterGlass]

If Hannibal owned it outright, it's still his property.  There are probably taxes to be paid, but his lawyer can arrange that out of his estate.  Francis wanted to be there because of his admiration for Hannibal and because in his mind it was the right place from which to reach out and start a conversation.  Francis fooled caller ID with his computer.  That was all the mental institution had to start with.  He was not able to fool the later FBI trace that was targeting him.
 

I kind of felt that had that been the case, his first comment to Jack when he left the room might have been about how scared Walter was, or how worried he was for his mum, instead of 'I just had to justify myself to an 11 year old'  - which really jarred, for me.

 

I didn't think his comment to Jack was odd.  Jack had been watching Walter before Will came down the hall.  He knew what state Walter was in.  And Jack is the only person other than Hannibal who can understand how much Will has to justify, and how uncomfortable it makes him to be on the defensive.  Will may not want to over-emote with Walter because while they get along well, Will is still the imposter in the family.  I think Will did fairly well as a step-father.  I agree with other posters however that he hasn't fully adapted to being part of a family.

[Fable]

I don't mean to be pedantic but that blurb strikes me as very poorly written, or at least "oddly" written.

 

Reba is the "last good thing" in Francis' life?  By Francis' standards, I presume.  Because, living in that house, well fed, with a job and a car doesn't sound like too much God damned hardship to me.  (Not to mention an active imaginary life that he can indulge in with weights and mirrors and all the shit he keeps in the attic to maintain his boy-ish figure.)  

 

ETA:  Not to mention the cut glass decanter set and the fancy gin for all those gin tonics Reba keeps washing down.

 

I took that to mean she was the only thing that added meaning or brought a real sense of pleasure to his life.  Creature comforts are great, and I would rather have them than not, but I imagine it was something deeper for him.

[DeadlyEuphoric]

jeansheridan, thank you so much for your kind words. It is bad enough that the show is ending, not getting to enjoy the discussions here will make things even worse...

 

I never thought Molly could have a shotgun, I am not sure if she is a "gun" person. In the Red Dragon, Will had to teach her how to shoot and gave her a gun, but in this show Will tries his hardest to leave his family "out" of all this, so I am not surprised he never thought of teaching Molly how to shoot (besides he is not that good at it himself, though realistically speaking if I remember my criminology lesson well, aim accuracy in real life is rather difficult, so he is not that bad).

 

Will's "I had to justify myself to a 11 years old" comment was more about his hatred of Tattler and the garbage they print then actually having to deal with Walter, from what I could tell. He was upset that Walter had come across an article from that, which I am sure was less than flattering about Will and painted him in a horrible light. No one wants their stepson to read that. And all of it was made worse (and amplified for Will and the discomfort he was feeling) by the fact that the guy Will is trying to catch just came to their house and tried to kill Walter and Molly and managed to injure Molly. He was awkward in his talk with Walter, but then I am not surprised he was, Will feels guilty over what happened to Molly and he is also aware Walter blames him too, so that is a lot of guilt to deal with and he doesn't want to say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing or upset the kid anymore than he already is. He was pretty much walking on eggshells from the very beginning in that conversation, a conversation which would have been hard for any parent, and is even harder for one who is a "step" father. Walter may call Will "Dad" and they may normally get along perfectly well, but in a situation like this I think one would feel the lingering "outsider" feel a lot.

 

Oh but he doesn't get a bucket. He gets what they call in institutions, "dignity pants."

 

According to Fuller on twitter, Hannibal gets to poop in a hole in the floor now. Which... gross...

 

I get that Alana had to maintain discipline, but reminding Hannibal about his promise to kill you as you're taking his toilet away strikes me as a failure of the self-preservation instinct.

 

It is Hannibal... She could treat him nicer than anyone ever did in his whole life, and he'd still kill her because he "promised". So knowing that I guess she doesn't feel the need to play nice or show any fear when dealing with him. Which I kind of admire. Though the more she gets on his nerves, the more "horrible" her death is going to be, I am sure...

 

Francis rigged the caller id. The tech guys explained it. I think he just wanted to see Hannibal' s office. He is a superfan after all. Although that office must be an expensive piece of real estate. Details I shouldn't worry about.

Hannibal has fed the dogs lots of mystery meat and Mason' s face. The dogs seemed fine. Meat is meat.

I have no idea how Fuller will end this. But I put money on a bloody and battered Will.

 

 

Yes - I'm also confused as to why Alana tipped Hannibal off about the phone calls.  Why not just let him keep doing it and listen in?

 

Both Alana and Jack have a need to antagonize Hannibal and gloat about how clever they are, how they are onto him, how they are using him etc. etc. Which really only betrays how much Hannibal got to them and made them feel weak and inferior, IMHO, so I am not surprised at their idiocy in how they handled this. They both have this need to feel they have one-upped Hannibal, that they have control over him somehow and obviously that is not happening. Of course, maybe there are "legal" issues involved that explain their action? I don't know if there are legal complications to listening in/tracing someone's phone calls even if they are a prisoner. Like would there need to be a judge order? And if they don't have one, would that mean they need to get his consent???

ven't since it's been on Saturday nights. 

 

 

I'm surprised that Molly didn't remember that the animals were poisoned before the families were murdered by the serial killer. Didn't Will tell her that he'd adopted the dog? Unless she just wasn't think that the killer would go after her and her son. How far away are they supposed to be from everything else?

When Will adopted the dog, they haven't yet made the connection that this was something Dolarhyde always did to the pets. And my impression of Will/Molly is he doesn't share the details of his work with her at all. We calls her for normalcy and sanity in his life, to escape from his nightmares, so I think he liked to keep her "untainted" with all this. Which is, of course, exactly why Hannibal targeted Molly and Walter. He wanted them ruined for Will. No more a safe, pure house/family he can go to, to hide from his demons and the darkness.

 

 

 

But if they traced it to Hannibal's empty office and someone "claiming to be his lawyer" -- wouldn't they see the illogic?

 

Why not get a burner and you're his lawyer?

 

ETA Sorry to be so dense.

 

They only traced the calls back once they realized it wasn't really the lawyer calling Hannibal, so they were already on to what was happening. He used Hannibal's office just in case FBI realized Hannibal was not really receiving the calls from his lawyer but from someone else and tried to trace it - them tracing it back to Hannibal's office doesn't give  them any new information on the caller, all it says "the caller is interested in Hannibal & knows to tap a phone", which they already knew.. I think he also chose to call from Hannibal's office because it is the closest he will be to Hannibal. He is like the crazed fan breaking into a celebrity's house just to be a bit more closer to them than all.  Talking to Hannibal from his office, Francis could fantasize he has met him in person and that they were having conversations at his office.

Edited August 18, 2015 by DeadlyEuphoric

[joouiie]

I kind of felt that had that been the case, his first comment to Jack when he left the room might have been about how scared Walter was, or how worried he was for his mum, instead of 'I just had to justify myself to an 11 year old'  - which really jarred, for me.

Will is not a 'smooth' guy, he is asocial, awkward, often uninhibited, especially when pushed hard to question his own sanity/reality. I think his comment was totally in character for him, especially with his S1 character. He was also frustrated that some kid had a clearer view of what should happen that him. No matter how wrong the kid is, or how unintentionally insulting and demeaning to Will his comment was. I could almost hear Will's inside voice going "what the flying fuck, now even this kid wants me to off someone".

 

Death in theory is easy for the kid, and easy in practice for Hannibal. Will knows the truth of killing for him is much different. Taken in Will's whole history with death/murder/killing, I understand his annoyance with the kid fully. 

[jeansheridan]

And really the easy answer is to kill them all. Execute Hannibal. Kill Francis. Kill Misha' s murderer. But when Will spoke to the brain damaged dude in S2, he said something like "you didn't deserve to kill him". Will knows killing eats at his soul. I think the much hated Chiyoh knew that too. Will tolerates killing as a necessary evil. Randall Tier attacked him so Will killed him out of necessity. I still don't get why Will was ready to stab Hannibal. That was so out of character. Chiyoh saved him. Will is not a killer. Everyone but Hannibal gets this.

[Snookums]

Didn't Will tell her that he'd adopted the dog? Unless she just wasn't think that the killer would go after her and her son. How far away are they supposed to be from everything else? Dolarhyde just skips around murdering people? This country is *huge*. It would be more believable if it were set in England. Although I guess the States are smaller in the Northeast.

 

 

This has honestly been a thing since season one. The characters magically teleport up and down the Eastern Seaboard and even out to Minnesota (where I am pretty positive the FBI has a field office) like they're the only law enforcement characters in existence.

 

It got pretty ridiculous for Hannibal himself (The person tree and its planting in a parking lot) but also for the Killers of the Week (totem pole guy, Giant Eye guy); they'd magically conjure up these Murder Etsy Projects without anybody noticing the piles and piles of abandoned cars or dug up graves or whatever.

[GreyBunny]

Will made his dog food from scratch! Awww ;)

i think it's one of the things Will picked up from Hannibal - making homemade gourmet food from scratch.  I find it amusing Hannibal cooks for his friends (and a few enemies) and Will cooks for his dogs. 

[Actionmage]

Will made his dog food from scratch! Awww ;)

 

i think it's one of the things Will picked up from Hannibal - making homemade gourmet food from scratch.  I find it amusing Hannibal cooks for his friends (and a few enemies) and Will cooks for his dogs.

 

Well, S1 Will was very much an ascetic, so I am thinking he gave his pack a raw diet, as he had the time and inclination. The man makes his own fly-fishing lures, so I can see him make his dogs' food. He's just that damn cool. ( I totally felt for poor Molly when the vet was being judgy. You don't know her story, Judgy Vet! *g*)

[crowswork]

This has honestly been a thing since season one. The characters magically teleport up and down the Eastern Seaboard and even out to Minnesota (where I am pretty positive the FBI has a field office) like they're the only law enforcement characters in existence.

Oh but this is a massive TV trope. See: Criminal minds any of the NCIS's or CSI - the heroes find out someone in the next state is in danger. they hop into their huge SUV's and carom off to the scene. They walk up to the body and say "Damn, the body's still warm...we just missed him." 

 

I'm pretty sure there were some 'Local Leos' closer. This must be a thing people gripe on as I've noticed they do call the nearest police officer on occasion now.

[Captanne]

Snookums

 

It got pretty ridiculous for Hannibal himself (The person tree and its planting in a parking lot) but also for the Killers of the Week (totem pole guy, Giant Eye guy); they'd magically conjure up these Murder Etsy Projects without anybody noticing the piles and piles of abandoned cars or dug up graves or whatever.

 

Or, say, missing the actual human beings who started to literally pile up like log piles.  Which, Fuller -- call me?  I have an idea for a "Murder Etsy Project"!! (™ Snookums)

 

I still don't buy any of the solutions for why Dolarhyde used Hannibal's office to call from.  If he's such an avid fan and wants the atmosphere, go there -- knock yourself out, Tooth Fairy.  But, go to the 7-11 first and buy a burner.  Make the call on a disposable phone.  There was NO need that I can figure out to jigger the phone lines.  

 

Unless we default to the good old standby -- "He can do what he wants.  He's Kray-Zee."  Which is a copout, imo.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Captanne

[DeadlyEuphoric]

And really the easy answer is to kill them all. Execute Hannibal. Kill Francis. Kill Misha' s murderer. But when Will spoke to the brain damaged dude in S2, he said something like "you didn't deserve to kill him". Will knows killing eats at his soul. I think the much hated Chiyoh knew that too. Will tolerates killing as a necessary evil. Randall Tier attacked him so Will killed him out of necessity. I still don't get why Will was ready to stab Hannibal. That was so out of character. Chiyoh saved him. Will is not a killer. Everyone but Hannibal gets this.

 

 

The very first scene we saw Will had him tell his class "we all imagine we kill someone", and I think Hannibal thinks the same. Everyone thinks of killing someone, so the potential to kill is there, we do "think" about it, it does occur as an option to us, and then we dismiss it, due to morals. Hannibal's therapy has always been about giving people a nudge here, a nudge there to make them act on that potential, to let their imagination become reality. Will is not that different in that regard. What makes Will "special" is he was rather innocent and naive (Hannibal and Jack even discuss how he is an innocent at some point) and due to his empathy feels everyone and everything very deeply, making him "pure human" (if I remember it correctly that is what was used in interviews to describe him) and he does his best to reject the dark thoughts in him, and when he goes down a dark path (as a necessity evil) he does so kicking  and screaming (remember how he was trembling and breathing heavily when he shot Garrett Jacob Hobbs and seemed out of it?). It is all such a turn on for Hannibal, he never had to work so hard to corrupt someone. I think it is also why, the more Will rejects him, the more valuable he becomes to Hannibal. With each kill Will loses a part of his soul, and takes a step closer to Hannibal, which he knows and actively supports. Will is the ultimate prize, and if Hannibal can manage to turn him into the murder husband he wants, will be the ultimate success for Hannibal.

 

As for why Will tried to kill Hannibal. I think it was a combination of him feeling he had to, because Hannibal had to be stopped and also him being in a dark place and feeling he had to kill Hannibal to not turn into him...Funny enough, his first attempt to kill Hannibal was stopped by a 3rd party too, though Gideon did intent to so to save Will's soul, and not because he is Hannibal's own guardian angel...

Snookums

 

 

Or, say, missing the actual human beings who started to literally pile up like log piles.  Which, Fuller -- call me?  I have an idea for a "Murder Etsy Project"!! (™ Snookums)

 

I still don't buy any of the solutions for why Dolarhyde used Hannibal's office to call from.  If he's such an avid fan and wants the atmosphere, go there -- knock yourself out, Tooth Fairy.  But, go to the 7-11 first and buy a burner.  Make the call on a disposable phone.  There was NO need that I can figure out to jigger the phone lines.  

 

Unless we default to the good old standby -- "He can do what he wants.  He's Kray-Zee."  Which is a copout, imo.

 

 

Can you tap the disposable phones to make them look like the call is coming from Hannibal's lawyer's office? Because he had to have the caller ID show up as Hannibal's lawyer's office to ever be allowed to speak to Hannibal... And who knows, maybe disposable phones are also too hi-tech for Dolarhyde, like digital cameras are...

[Crossbow]

The only reason Francis is in Hannibal's office is so they can do scenes as if he were in therapy. The only reason for the odd dialogue is that they're trying to work in as many book lines as possible. They wanted to use "I had to justify myself to an eleven year old" but in the book Molly hasn't been hurt when he says that. I just go with it.

[Captanne]

I'm a lawyer and I don't have to call anyone from a special phone.  I simply identify myself in the call.  I'm not a criminal lawyer, though.  But, if I called a client from a burner and they cared, all I'd have to say is my kid ate my iPhone and I'm waiting for a new one.  Shoot, if Hannibal can say, "I don't have the use of my arms, will you please dial the number for me, operator?" I'm sure there is some excuse for using a burner that would be credible.

[BigBlueMastiff]

 

Will made his dog food from scratch! Awww ;)

This is really easy to do. I make about a weeks worth, and mix it with the dogs' dry food, they love it!

 

The differences from Red Dragon/Manhunter are messing with me. I remember Hannibal's "kill them all" comment, but I don't remember Francis actually going after Will's family. He did find out where they lived in FL, but the family got protection from the FBI (agents and law enforcement were all over their house). Francis goes after Reba (mistakenly thinking she cheated on him) and holds her captive in his house. FBI and Will save her and kills Francis. Now that Francis has broken it off with Reba, interesting to see where Fuller goes, as well as with the Freddie Loundes storyline.

[Crossbow]

I was a receptionist in a criminal law office for several months, and yeah, lawyers can call in from any old phone, although usually the clients called us, since they would only be allowed to at certain times. BTW, serial killers are way, way, WAY more polite than chronic DUIs. In case you were wondering.

[Bruinsfan]

I can't see the picture but I want to!

Sorry, I didn't realize that linking would run afoul of that website. Here you go.

[Nutjob]

 

Francis goes after Reba (mistakenly thinking she cheated on him) and holds her captive in his house. FBI and Will save her and kills Francis. Now that Francis has broken it off with Reba, interesting to see where Fuller goes, as well as with the Freddie Loundes storyline.

I think we'll still see Francis going after Reba when he sees her with someone else. Just because he broke it off with her doesn't mean his jealousy won't take over.

 

I also think we'll see the Freddie Loundes storyline play out. I said it in another thread, but Fuller has actually, in my opinion, set up the wheelchair incident perfectly. Francis knows every public tidbit about Will and Freddie, including her faked death from season 2. The Dragon will want to punish them both and will carry it out for real this time.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Nutjob

[MrsR]

The reason why I think they maybe going with a different resolution to Francis' story also has to do with the way they have presented Reba. In the book she is very self reliant, going so far as to memorize how many steps it takes to the various locations in Francis' house. 22 steps from the living room to the front door for instance. This ability comes onto play  later and sets her up for Francis to use her as the ultimate unreliable witness. Since they haven't set this up, nor her unwanted other suitor I suspect they are going in another direction.