Gender On Television: It's Like Feminism Never Happened

[possibilities]

1 hour ago, slf said:

So according to Joss Whedon's ex-wife, Kai Cole, he cheated on her for almost twenty years with actresses from his shows, co-workers, friends, and even fans. According to her he wrote her a letter in which he basically blamed culture for him being an asshole who exploited his position to have affairs all while preaching about feminism (“In many ways I was the HEIGHT of normal, in this culture. We’re taught to be providers and companions and at the same time, to conquer and acquire — specifically sexually — and I was pulling off both!”). From a letter he wrote her: “When I was running ‘Buffy,’ I was surrounded by beautiful, needy, aggressive young women. It felt like I had a disease, like something from a Greek myth. Suddenly I am a powerful producer and the world is laid out at my feet and I can’t touch it.”

...I believe it.

Gross!!

[Wiendish Fitch]

2 hours ago, slf said:

So according to Joss Whedon's ex-wife, Kai Cole, he cheated on her for almost twenty years with actresses from his shows, co-workers, friends, and even fans. According to her he wrote her a letter in which he basically blamed culture for him being an asshole who exploited his position to have affairs all while preaching about feminism (“In many ways I was the HEIGHT of normal, in this culture. We’re taught to be providers and companions and at the same time, to conquer and acquire — specifically sexually — and I was pulling off both!”). From a letter he wrote her: “When I was running ‘Buffy,’ I was surrounded by beautiful, needy, aggressive young women. It felt like I had a disease, like something from a Greek myth. Suddenly I am a powerful producer and the world is laid out at my feet and I can’t touch it.”

...I believe it.

 

What did you expect from a guy who frames asshole characters such as Xander, Mal, and Jayne as sympathetic and just wonderful paragons of masculinity, whose Wonder Woman screenplay is a laughable disgrace with no regards to who Wonder Woman is, and who created Dollhouse, a show where our heroine taps into her inner badass as a result of being a brainwashed sex slave?

[millennium]

3 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

 

What did you expect from a guy who frames asshole characters such as Xander, Mal, and Jayne as sympathetic and just wonderful paragons of masculinity, whose Wonder Woman screenplay is a laughable disgrace with no regards to who Wonder Woman is, and who created Dollhouse, a show where our heroine taps into her inner badass as a result of being a brainwashed sex slave?

After 15 years,

Joss Whedon fan site shuts down after ex-wife's critical essay

[Wiendish Fitch]

5 hours ago, millennium said:

After 15 years,

Joss Whedon fan site shuts down after ex-wife's critical essay

So much shit going down in the world today, it's a genuine pleasure to start the morning with some good news for a change. :)

[proserpina65]

13 hours ago, slf said:

So according to Joss Whedon's ex-wife, Kai Cole, he cheated on her for almost twenty years with actresses from his shows, co-workers, friends, and even fans. According to her he wrote her a letter in which he basically blamed culture for him being an asshole who exploited his position to have affairs all while preaching about feminism (“In many ways I was the HEIGHT of normal, in this culture. We’re taught to be providers and companions and at the same time, to conquer and acquire — specifically sexually — and I was pulling off both!”). From a letter he wrote her: “When I was running ‘Buffy,’ I was surrounded by beautiful, needy, aggressive young women. It felt like I had a disease, like something from a Greek myth. Suddenly I am a powerful producer and the world is laid out at my feet and I can’t touch it.”

...I believe it.

If it's true, it is indeed gross.  But I would need verification beyond just the word of his ex-wife.  As I would if the situation was reversed.

[DearEvette]

I believe what she is saying in true for two reasons:

1) In the article she indicates she's quoting from written letters.  So it isn't just her (verbal) word against his (verbal words).

2) she published it on The Wrap which is a digital news organization that is considered a legit press site.  I don't think they would have opened themselves up to potential charges of libel to let her publish this through them if they hadn't been assured that what she is saying isn't just the rantings of an angry, bitter wife.  It would strike me as very naive for a Hollywood publication to publish something that is rather damaging to the reputation of a powerful player in Hollywood and not have vetted it thoroughly.

[biakbiak]

13 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

would strike me as very naive for a Hollywood publication to publish something that is rather damaging to the reputation of a powerful player in Hollywood and not have vetted it thoroughly.

And rather shitty of them to do it when it will cause endless speculation that is damaging to the reputation of the countless women who have worked with him.

[Dee]

To be fair, they're only semi-confirming things that have long been rumored anyway though.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Dee

[slf]

18 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

 

What did you expect from a guy who frames asshole characters such as Xander, Mal, and Jayne as sympathetic and just wonderful paragons of masculinity, whose Wonder Woman screenplay is a laughable disgrace with no regards to who Wonder Woman is, and who created Dollhouse, a show where our heroine taps into her inner badass as a result of being a brainwashed sex slave?

Oh God, I still gag whenever I remember Tim Minnear ecstatically relaying Whedon's pitch to him for Firefly that was about Inara:

"She had this magic syringe. She would take this drug. And if she were, for instance, raped, the rapist would die a horrible death. The story was that she gets kidnapped by Reavers and when Mal finally got to the ship to save her from the Reavers, he gets on the Reaver ship and all the Reavers are dead. Which would suggest a kind of really bad assault. At the end of the episode, he comes in after she's been horribly brutalized, and he comes in and he gets down on his knee, and he takes her hand. And he treats her like a lady. And that's the kind of stuff that we wanted to do. It was very dark. And this was actually the first story that Joss pitched to me when he asked me to come work on the show. He said, 'These are the kind of stories we're going to do.'"

Awesome. Inara was supposed to get gang-raped which would teach Mal how to be a nice person. Just...ugh. Not to mention all the other weird rape stuff in his works (Spike's attempted rape of Buffy and how that was treated by other characters (including Whedon who went with the ol' chestnut "it was abusive on both sides"), the metaphorical rape of SIneya that led to the creation of the slayers, all the rape on Firefly, and literally all of Dollhouse), his treatment of Charisma Carpenter, or his lack of representation for woc. 

Whedon's always creeped me out.

[supposebly]

3 hours ago, slf said:

"She had this magic syringe. She would take this drug. And if she were, for instance, raped, the rapist would die a horrible death. The story was that she gets kidnapped by Reavers and when Mal finally got to the ship to save her from the Reavers, he gets on the Reaver ship and all the Reavers are dead. Which would suggest a kind of really bad assault. At the end of the episode, he comes in after she's been horribly brutalized, and he comes in and he gets down on his knee, and he takes her hand. And he treats her like a lady. And that's the kind of stuff that we wanted to do. It was very dark. And this was actually the first story that Joss pitched to me when he asked me to come work on the show. He said, 'These are the kind of stories we're going to do.'"

Ew. Ew. Ew. Wasn't there a scene with a close-up of that syringe? In the reaper episode? Bushwhacked? Ew. Just....ew.

The whole concept of Dollhouse was creepy beyond belief.

[Lugal]

4 hours ago, slf said:

Oh God, I still gag whenever I remember Tim Minnear ecstatically relaying Whedon's pitch to him for Firefly that was about Inara:

"She had this magic syringe. She would take this drug. And if she were, for instance, raped, the rapist would die a horrible death. The story was that she gets kidnapped by Reavers and when Mal finally got to the ship to save her from the Reavers, he gets on the Reaver ship and all the Reavers are dead. Which would suggest a kind of really bad assault. At the end of the episode, he comes in after she's been horribly brutalized, and he comes in and he gets down on his knee, and he takes her hand. And he treats her like a lady. And that's the kind of stuff that we wanted to do. It was very dark. And this was actually the first story that Joss pitched to me when he asked me to come work on the show. He said, 'These are the kind of stories we're going to do.'"

I remember hearing that and thinking A) Whedon seriously does not get it and B) he clearly has some issues with women.

I also remember Alan Tudyk's pitch about transporting fighting space-beagles and River telepathically tames them, ruining the crew's score, and it occurred to me that Alan Tudyk had a better grasp on the show that Joss Whedon did.  But I've always considered Firefly a show trapped in amber.  It was cancelled before Whedon could really screw it up, which why I think it's so well regarded.

[Wiendish Fitch]

5 hours ago, slf said:

Oh God, I still gag whenever I remember Tim Minnear ecstatically relaying Whedon's pitch to him for Firefly that was about Inara:

"She had this magic syringe. She would take this drug. And if she were, for instance, raped, the rapist would die a horrible death. The story was that she gets kidnapped by Reavers and when Mal finally got to the ship to save her from the Reavers, he gets on the Reaver ship and all the Reavers are dead. Which would suggest a kind of really bad assault. At the end of the episode, he comes in after she's been horribly brutalized, and he comes in and he gets down on his knee, and he takes her hand. And he treats her like a lady. And that's the kind of stuff that we wanted to do. It was very dark. And this was actually the first story that Joss pitched to me when he asked me to come work on the show. He said, 'These are the kind of stories we're going to do.'"

Awesome. Inara was supposed to get gang-raped which would teach Mal how to be a nice person. Just...ugh. Not to mention all the other weird rape stuff in his works (Spike's attempted rape of Buffy and how that was treated by other characters (including Whedon who went with the ol' chestnut "it was abusive on both sides"), the metaphorical rape of SIneya that led to the creation of the slayers, all the rape on Firefly, and literally all of Dollhouse), his treatment of Charisma Carpenter, or his lack of representation for woc. 

Whedon's always creeped me out.

Because God forbid Mal has character development that isn't at poor Inara's expense, or  Joss Whedon (and, indeed, writers everywhere) realize that rape is not to be treated lightly, that plenty of women go their whole lives without being raped, and indiscriminately using rape as drama is amateurish, disgusting, and utterly insensitive.

And one more thing:

I think the greatest, sexiest badass on any sci-fi show will always be Marcus Cole on Babylon 5. J. Michael Straczynski knows how to write strong men and women characters in a way Joss Whedon will never, ever achieve. Marcus could buffer the floor with Mal and Jayne on his worst day. Bonus? Marcus knew how to treat a lady.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Wiendish Fitch

[selkie]

And for all that Delenn and John Sheridan could be as schmoopy as heck together in quiet times, her "Only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari Fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else!" remains one of the great moments of television bad-assness. 

[Spartan Girl]

Like I said in another thread, I think the storyline of Buffy and Riley's breakup with Buffy getting the blame for Riley's cheating because he didn't like that she couldn't lean on him for support was definitive proof that Whedon was not the male feminist everyone thought he was.  Yes, Buffy had flaws, but wanting to handle things on her own without leaning on her boyfriend wasn't one of them.  People grieve in different ways.

And Riley was the one that cheated.  Riley was the one that projected his own issues and insecurities, and for him to whine about not feeling needed or wanted while Buffy was dealing with her mother's illness and a bunch of other things was just...ugh.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Spartan Girl

[DearEvette]

21 hours ago, slf said:

Oh God, I still gag whenever I remember Tim Minnear ecstatically relaying Whedon's pitch to him for Firefly that was about Inara:

"She had this magic syringe. She would take this drug. And if she were, for instance, raped, the rapist would die a horrible death. The story was that she gets kidnapped by Reavers and when Mal finally got to the ship to save her from the Reavers, he gets on the Reaver ship and all the Reavers are dead. Which would suggest a kind of really bad assault. At the end of the episode, he comes in after she's been horribly brutalized, and he comes in and he gets down on his knee, and he takes her hand. And he treats her like a lady. And that's the kind of stuff that we wanted to do. It was very dark. And this was actually the first story that Joss pitched to me when he asked me to come work on the show. He said, 'These are the kind of stories we're going to do.'"

Awesome. Inara was supposed to get gang-raped which would teach Mal how to be a nice person. Just...ugh. Not to mention all the other weird rape stuff in his works (Spike's attempted rape of Buffy and how that was treated by other characters (including Whedon who went with the ol' chestnut "it was abusive on both sides"), the metaphorical rape of SIneya that led to the creation of the slayers, all the rape on Firefly, and literally all of Dollhouse), his treatment of Charisma Carpenter, or his lack of representation for woc. 

Whedon's always creeped me out.

I've never read that about him pitching that for Inara.  Sigh.  I love Firefly.  It is problematic in so many ways, but I do love it.  But I have always thought that for a show that was a space fantasy, the conception of the paid companions showed lack of imagination.  In my mind, if you are going to create a society that legitimizes sex work, then you should go all the way and make it a society where people also view it legitimately and without the scorn and shame attached.  He had the opportunity to suppose a completely different mentality about it, but instead he went a very trite route.  It was made worse by the fact that Mal threw around the word 'whore' quite a bit.

So to read this pitch just makes it even more worse.  Because according to this it takes a brutal gang rape for a guy to think of the woman he scorned as a whore to treat her like a lady?  Rape as redemption?  Like what the actual fuck? 

[galax-arena]

In addition to what DearEvette says about why she believes Cole's article, I thought Whedon's own response was pretty telling in how vague and mealy-mouthed it was:

Editor’s Note: A spokesperson for Joss Whedon provided the following response, “While this account includes inaccuracies and misrepresentations which can be harmful to their family, Joss is not commenting, out of concern for his children and out of respect for his ex-wife.”

I can only speak for myself, but if Kai were lying, why wouldn't you flat out say, "This is categorically false!" or refer to it as libelous/defamatory? Nah, instead he offers a weak and undefined "inaccuracies and misrepresentations." He might as well have said that she's taking the words from his letter out of context lmao. 

Edited August 24, 2017 by galax-arena

[slf]

33 minutes ago, galax-arena said:

In addition to what DearEvette says about why she believes Cole's article, I thought Whedon's own response was pretty telling in how vague and mealy-mouthed it was:

Editor’s Note: A spokesperson for Joss Whedon provided the following response, “While this account includes inaccuracies and misrepresentations which can be harmful to their family, Joss is not commenting, out of concern for his children and out of respect for his ex-wife.”

I can only speak for myself, but if Kai were lying, why wouldn't you flat out say, "This is categorically false!" or refer to it as libelous/defamatory? Nah, instead he offers a weak and undefined "inaccuracies and misrepresentations." He might as well have said that she's taking the words from his letter out of context lmao. 

"Joss is not commenting out of concern for his children and out of respect for his ex-wife"? Seriously?

[vibeology]

On 2017-08-24 at 0:23 PM, Spartan Girl said:

Like I said in another thread, I think the storyline of Buffy and Riley's breakup with Buffy getting the blame for Riley's cheating because he didn't like that she couldn't lean on him for support was definitive proof that Whedon was the male feminist everyone thought he was.  Yes, Buffy had flaws, but wanting to handle things on her own without leaning on her boyfriend wasn't one of them.  People grieve in different ways.

And Riley was the one that cheated.  Riley was the one that projected his own issues and insecurities, and for him to whine about not feeling needed or wanted while Buffy was dealing with her mother's illness and a bunch of other things was just...ugh.

When Joss' self-insert in Xander showed up at the end of that episode to scold Buffy, I lost it. I was 15 at the time and I already knew that was horrible. Her entire relationship with Riley was about having to diminish herself to make Riley feel good. And then to have the problems pinned on her when he was the one "cheating" was awful. I still love Buffy but that was a clear moment where I started to look at it critically and got over Joss.

[Dee]

I was over Joss when he had Buffy harboring and making excuses for Angel during Season 3.

[Spartan Girl]

Hell, Xander's entire existence proved Joss was a hypocrite long before all this.

[Chinspinner]

On 13/10/2015 at 11:04 PM, joelene said:

I'll add Scott & Bailey and No Offence to that list.

Unfortunately the BBC also co-produced Top of the Lake, the first season of which was so reductive in its gender stereotyping that it was offensive to everyone (all the male characters were abusers, and all the female characters were the ineffectual victims of men). 

[Luckylyn]

The Adorkable Misogyny of The Big Bang Theory

[Chinspinner]

4 minutes ago, Luckylyn said:

The Adorkable Misogyny of The Big Bang Theory

 

And the laughter track that makes the entire series unbearable. This might be popular, but this is pure McDonalds. It is moron TV.

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, Luckylyn said:

The Adorkable Misogyny of The Big Bang Theory

Thanks for posting that; it explained well why I rejected the show based on just a few scattered episodes.  "Adorkable misogyny" is a good phrase for how the male characters' harassing, manipulative, entitled behavior towards women is presented as kind of pathetic, but harmless and even kind of endearing; just another personality quirk.  I also like the rejection of the writers' use of lampshading to try and get away with the sexism and bigotry.

Edited September 1, 2017 by Bastet

[Chaos Theory]

When it comes to tv I tend to think there is a difference between actual misogyny and writers who just can't write well for women.  Gotham is a pretty good show but it tends to lean heavily towards males but I don't think it is any fault of the show or the writers.  The same with Glee.  It had a weird male read to it but I think that it had more to do with the writers liking certain characters/actors and not liking others.  I'm not sure if it was misogyny or just writers not clear on a point they were trying to make.    I also think people are far too sensitive these days but that is just me.  Personally I think the idea of "trigger warnings" and "safe places" is just insane.  But that is a completely different topic.    I also am not clear on the whole Joss Whedon thing.  Then again I never understood the vitrol against Xander Harris so maybe I am bad feminist.    I do judge a show by the quality of the female characters which is why I never understood the hatred of Ryan Murphy.   Most of his shows consist almost entirely of women and pretty strong ones at that.  I doubt these women would stay in an environment where they weren't welcome.   I do get the fact that Joss Whedon isn't perfect.   He cheated on his wife so there is that.  Which is personal no professional.  I am sorry for his wife but honestly not my business and it doesn't effect at all what I think of him as a show runner.    He's an ass so are alot of people including women.     Unless he committed an actual crime not really an issue with me any more then Lucy Lawless and that thing with Green Peace.    They have lives unless it involves a felony not my problem or anything I feel like I have to deal with.  Oh and I feel the same way about Miranda Lambert the country western singer who cheated ALOT on her husband Blake Sheldon who is a judge on The Voice.  

Edited September 10, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[galax-arena]

Quote

He cheated on his wife so there is that.  Which is personal no professional.

If his wife's allegations - that he was essentially using his position to sleep with actresses on his show - are true, then it's both personal and professional. It's a misuse of power, especially considering the way he then went on to blame the women for being needy and desperate. And since so much of his "brand" so to speak is about how he's such a strong feminist ally, blah blah blah, I wholeheartedly disagree that his behavior is irrelevant.

Then again, I've never been that impressed with the way he writes women. IMO he seems to have a particular "type" that seems to have more to do with what turns him on personally than anything else. Which is fine as far as it goes - he wouldn't be the first to stick to the Author's Appeal trope - but we should have stopped fellating him for "omg writing such great female characters~" a long time ago, because... no. 

Edited September 10, 2017 by galax-arena

[Wiendish Fitch]

1 hour ago, galax-arena said:

If his wife's allegations - that he was essentially using his position to sleep with actresses on his show - are true, then it's both personal and professional. It's a misuse of power, especially considering the way he then went on to blame the women for being needy and desperate. And since so much of his "brand" so to speak is about how he's such a strong feminist ally, blah blah blah, I wholeheartedly disagree that his behavior is irrelevant.

Then again, I've never been that impressed with the way he writes women. IMO he seems to have a particular "type" that seems to have more to do with what turns him on personally than anything else. Which is fine as far as it goes - he wouldn't be the first to stick to the Author's Appeal trope - but we should have stopped fellating him for "omg writing such great female characters~" a long time ago, because... no. 

That last state warrants a mic drop, it's so awesome.

[Irlandesa]

22 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

When it comes to tv I tend to think there is a difference between actual misogyny and writers who just can't write well for women.  Gotham is a pretty good show but it tends to lean heavily towards males but I don't think it is any fault of the show or the writers.  The same with Glee.  It had a weird male read to it but I think that it had more to do with the writers liking certain characters/actors and not liking others.  I'm not sure if it was misogyny or just writers not clear on a point they were trying to make

One instance of a writer not being able to write well for women is one instance of not being able to write well for women.  It becomes misogyny when all the instances of "one writer not being able to write well for women" are put into a group and dominate the landscape.  When they keep getting the opportunities and money and backing. 

And writers are the perhaps the last people we should give passes to when it comes to liking certain characters when they're the ones who are creating these characters. 

[galax-arena]

Oh, I forgot to address this point:

Quote

I do judge a show by the quality of the female characters which is why I never understood the hatred of Ryan Murphy.   Most of his shows consist almost entirely of women and pretty strong ones at that.  I doubt these women would stay in an environment where they weren't welcome.  

I have issues with Ryan Murphy's characters that go beyond how he portrays women. (e.g. His POC characters kinda suck too.) BUT I do want to give credit where credit is due in that Ryan Murphy has been making a concerted, active effort to hire more women & minorities behind the scenes. And not just, like, hiring a woman here and there; IIRC, his Half Foundation initiative was created with the express purpose of hiring more women and POC until they were to make up at least half (?) of the directors for his shows. That is more than what a lot of showrunners do. 

So, yeah. I think Ryan Murphy is complicated. His on screen characters still leave something to be desired. But I appreciate that he at least is putting his money where his mouth is and seems to be genuinely concerned with giving underrepresented groups more opportunities. 

Edited September 11, 2017 by galax-arena

[kiddo82]

I did not know that and that's pretty awesome.  I always thought he deserved some credit for his casting choices when it came to casting verteran actresses over a certain age.  Were producers knocking down Jessica Lange's door prior to American Horror Story?  I'm 34 and I have to admit that I had never seen anything she'd done before Murder House.  Now she's cool amongst me and my contemporaries.  Kathy Bates and Mare Winningham always seem to find work, but again, the fact me and my friends have discussions over which had the better performance in the Hotel season is not to be dismissed.  These aren't just throw away "mom" or "wife" roles and it has brought their talents to an audience that might never have necessarily noticed.  That's an important point.  Again, that's not to dismiss the valid criticisms of the way he might handle women and/or POC characters, but some of what he has done as a producer is not without merit.  

Edited September 11, 2017 by kiddo82

[Spartan Girl]

There is one Buffy moment that always kind of bugs me, and given the hypocrisy of Joss Whedon's "feminism" and the events of this week, I think it's appropriate for this thread. It's the fallout from Xander and Willow cheating on Cordy and Oz: specifically when Willow tells Xander she isnt comfortable with him touching her for a while, no matter how platonically, and Xander gets pissy about it.

I know I'm biased because I loathe Xander, but seeing him sulk like that made me want to kick him in the balls. It came off as him feeling entitled to be able to touch her. Yes, under normal circumstances platonic touches are fine, but as Willow told him, they crossed a huge line and they couldn't pretend it didn't happen. Women (and men for that matter) have the right to set physical boundaries for friends of the opposite sex, should they choose.

Another thing: Xander's constant lament of him having "terrible taste in women." It always came off as "oh poor Xander falls for women that turn out to be evil." Which might ring true for the mummy girl, the teacher, Faith, etc, but for him to make that generalization when his failed relationships with Anya and Cordy were his own damn fault was pure Whedon sexism.

[Wiendish Fitch]

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

There is one Buffy moment that always kind of bugs me, and given the hypocrisy of Joss Whedon's "feminism" and the events of this week, I think it's appropriate for this thread. It's the fallout from Xander and Willow cheating on Cordy and Oz: specifically when Willow tells Xander she isnt comfortable with him touching her for a while, no matter how platonically, and Xander gets pissy about it.

I know I'm biased because I loathe Xander, but seeing him sulk like that made me want to kick him in the balls. It came off as him feeling entitled to be able to touch her. Yes, under normal circumstances platonic touches are fine, but as Willow told him, they crossed a huge line and they couldn't pretend it didn't happen. Women (and men for that matter) have the right to set physical boundaries for friends of the opposite sex, should they choose.

Another thing: Xander's constant lament of him having "terrible taste in women." It always came off as "oh poor Xander falls for women that turn out to be evil." Which might ring true for the mummy girl, the teacher, Faith, etc, but for him to make that generalization when his failed relationships with Anya and Cordy were his own damn fault was pure Whedon sexism.

BINGO.

I've long been bitterly disillusioned with Joss Whedon, and Xander is one of the reasons why. Xander carved a permanent spot on my shit list in the S2 episode "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered" (apologies if the title of the episode is off). Plot: Xander and Cordelia are dating and happy, but Cordelia's snotty friends are mocking her for dating a loser like Xander (in retrospect, they certainly have a point, but that's a discussion for another day). Cordelia succumbs to peer pressure and breaks up with Xander on Valentine's Day. Xander is hurt and angry. So far, so reasonable, who wouldn't be upset, right?

Aaaaand, that's the extent of my sympathy, because Xander then proceeds to wipe his ass with it in a series of sickening, vile actions that make the term "toxic masculinity" look like a backhanded compliment. 

First, Xander finds out classmate (and future rat) Amy is a witch. He recruits... no, silly me, blackmails her into casting a love spell on Cordelia.

* Pauses so some of you can exclaim "what the fuck?" or simply "ewwwwww!" *

Oh, but it gets better, friends! Because this is not so he can get Cordy back, no, no, no! It's so he can ease the pain of his wounded man-pride by dumping Cordy back. That's right, Xander wants to use magic to violate his ex-girlfriend's mind, emotions, and free will so he can have the satisfaction of hurting her!

But wait! There's more!

After forcing Cordelia to return the necklace he gave her (even she calls him out on this dick move), Xander gives it to Amy to use in the love spell. Now we really get the ball rolling, because Xander is not only a grade-A piece of shit human being, he's also a moron who's too stupid to consider that maybe Amy is an incompetent witch, because guess what? She is! Amy screws up the love spell, and now every girl and woman in Sunnydale (yes, even poor Joyce and Jenny) is in love with Xander... except Cordelia! LOL! Comedy, amirite?!?! Yeah, hundreds if not thousands of unsuspecting women are in love with this worthless fuckwit through no fault of their own! Oh, Joss, you card!

But wait!! There's more!!

Buffy starts coming on to Xander, and Xander is at first thrilled, but then sad because it's the effect of the love spell. All together now: AWWWWWWWW! Doesn't your heart just break for poor Xander and his fwustwated wuv for Buffy?

But wait!!! There's still more!!!

Buffy, wearing literally nothing but a robe, tries to seduce Xander, and Xander calmly but firmly rejects her advances. Golly gee, ladies! Couldn't you just swoon at his chivalry?!? Imagine! A man who nobly, valiantly, gallantly refuses to rape his friend who is demonstrably not in her right mind! Heavens to Betsy, it's so heroic, I could just throw up every meal I've ever eaten! No, seriously, Xander is framed as the epitome of goodness and nobility for this.

BUT WAIT!! THERE'S MORE!!!

The spell has made all love-crazed women turn murderously violent! Now they want to kill Xander so no other woman can have him! 

BUT WAIT! I'M GONNA MILK THIS RUNNING GAG FOR ALL IT'S WORTH!!!!!

Cordelia finds out about the love spell... and is touched that Xander would do all that. Yes, you read that correctly, touched. Touched, like the people who approved this fucking episode.

MOARRRRRR!!!!!

Long story short, spell is broken, stern words are handed out, but Xander is forgiven because of course he is, and Cordelia. Gets. Back. Together. With. Him. After all the misery Xander put everyone through, Cordy is actually going to continue dating him. 

* Wiendish Fitch goes outside to scream expletives to the heavens and hurl whatever she can get her hands on in a Hulk-like rage *

The. Fucking. End.

I hate Xander, I hate Joss Whedon, and I hate this episode.

[Spartan Girl]

Just reading your summary brings back all of my hate for that POS. You hit the nail on the fucking head.

Dont forget how Xander easily reverted to the old "screw her for not taking me back" attitude after Cordy dumped him for good after the thing with Willow, not to mention baiting and slut shaming her at every opportunity. Pure sour grapes.

I know some people argue that it wasn't fair how Willow was easily forgiven by Oz when she was just as guilty as Xander. And maybe they have a point.

HOWEVER

Willow wasn't the one that tried to turn the whole thing into a joke with "this is all their fault for rescuing us and walking in on us." Willow didn't leave 100 messages for Oz that again were more jokey than genuinely contrite. Willow was able to display more than five minutes of remorse. Most of all, when Oz told her to back off, she actually listened. And by giving him space, Oz came to the conclusion on his own that despite everything, he missed her and wanted to try to work things out.

Maybe if Xander had handled the matter more sensitively, Cordy might have reconsidered things. But that would have required him to grow up and get over himself, which is something he never could do in the whole seven years of that show.

[Wiendish Fitch]

10 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Just reading your summary brings back all of my hate for that POS. You hit the nail on the fucking head.

Dont forget how Xander easily reverted to the old "screw her for not taking me back" attitude after Cordy dumped him for good after the thing with Willow, not to mention baiting and slut shaming her at every opportunity. Pure sour grapes.

I know some people argue that it wasn't fair how Willow was easily forgiven by Oz when she was just as guilty as Xander. And maybe they have a point.

HOWEVER

Willow wasn't the one that tried to turn the whole thing into a joke with "this is all their fault for rescuing us and walking in on us." Willow didn't leave 100 messages for Oz that again were more jokey than genuinely contrite. Willow was able to display more than five minutes of remorse. Most of all, when Oz told her to back off, she actually listened. And by giving him space, Oz came to the conclusion on his own that despite everything, he missed her and wanted to try to work things out.

Maybe if Xander had handled the matter more sensitively, Cordy might have reconsidered things. But that would have required him to grow up and get over himself, which is something he never could do in the whole seven years of that show.

Thanks, Spartan Girl.

Lord knows Cordelia was no peach; she had more than her share of shitty moments, took her sweet time gaining introspection on her Queen Bee ways, and she brought plenty of crap on herself. That said, that does not in any way, shape, or form justify the utterly petty and detestable way Xander treated her before they dated and after they broke up. Maybe Cordy was just as guilty of being bitchy and nasty about the whole mess, but Xander could give as good as he got, and he could have easily taken the high road, but he didn't. And you know what?

For all of her flaws, at least Cordelia showed some genuine character development on Angel (though the less said about the final season or two, the better). Xander started out an insecure, immature, overcompensating pissant, and he ended up an insecure, immature, overcompensating pissant with an eyepatch. Screw that guy.

[Spartan Girl]

On 10/14/2017 at 10:26 PM, Wiendish Fitch said:

Maybe Cordy was just as guilty of being bitchy and nasty about the whole mess, but Xander could give as good as he got, and he could have easily taken the high road, but he didn't. And you know what?

For all of her flaws, at least Cordelia showed some genuine character development on Angel (though the less said about the final season or two, the better). Xander started out an insecure, immature, overcompensating pissant, and he ended up an insecure, immature, overcompensating pissant with an eyepatch. Screw that guy

I give Cordy a lot of slack for how she acted after the breakup, because she didn't walk in on them, she also GOT impaled and almost died right afterwards.  So she was dealing with PTSD and physical pain in addition to heartbreak.  Xander, on the other hand, knew full well how much he hurt her and knew by this point there was more to her than the Queen C mean girl act she put on for the public.  He could have easily taken the high road and instead decided to be a dick.

Let's not forgot how he treated Anya after she hooked up with Spike.  Yes, it was natural that he would be hurt (even though they were broken up) but his exact words expressed disgust that she "let that sick, evil thing touch (her)".  As if anything she does to her body is a direct reflection on him.  Another example of him lashing out to avenge his man-pain.

Well, Joss, now I know why you could never bring yourself to add Xander to the legions of characters you killed off: because he was YOU.  

[Wiendish Fitch]

20 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

 

Well, Joss, now I know why you could never bring yourself to add Xander to the legions of characters you killed off: because he was YOU.  

A sunset at the Grand Canyon isn't as magnificent as the above statement, Spartan Girl. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

Let's not forgot how he treated Anya after she hooked up with Spike.  Yes, it was natural that he would be hurt (even though they were broken up) but his exact words expressed disgust that she "let that sick, evil thing touch (her)".  As if anything she does to her body is a direct reflection on him.  Another example of him lashing out to avenge his man-pain.

And right after that Anya tried to trick his friends into wishing for Xander's death. Maybe he was right about her, after all.  Of course, him being more disgusted by her sleeping with a serial kilelr rather than her being a serial killer is sexist and nonsensical but that's par for the course for BtVS season 6. Their whole relationship was bizarre and out of place, if you ask me, because the show took Anya seriously once in a blue moon.

Honestly, Anya wouldn't have gotten away with a tenth of the things she did if she were a misogynist serial killer of women instead of a misandrist serial killer of men. The latter was somehow considered oh, so hilarious. I think it's easier for female villains in fiction to not be considered truly evil by their creators and this can come off as sort of sexist. Not that there aren't plenty of male Karma Houdinis in the Whedoneverse, far from it, but as despicable as say Spike was, his murders weren't usually presented as funny stories that the viewers should laugh at, the way Anya's were. It just seems to me that many writers love portraying female villains as misguided and/or easily manipulated by the "real", that is to say male, villains.

Quote

Well, Joss, now I know why you could never bring yourself to add Xander to the legions of characters you killed off: because he was YOU.  

And yet Xander was relegated to the sidelines for two thirds of the show. Considering that by all accounts Joss's ego is the size of Jupiter, I very much doubt he saw Xander as his avatar in the show, at least not after season 2.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Jack Shaftoe

[Joe]

1 hour ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

And yet Xander was relegated to the sidelines for two thirds of the show. Considering that by all accounts Joss's ego is the size of Jupiter, I very much doubt he saw Xander as his avatar in the show, at least not after season 2.

I believe that Nick Brendon had alcohol issues. Joss apparently didn't want to fire him, but didn't seem trust him with any heavy lifting.

[Spartan Girl]

Moving on to a different (and less division) storyline in the Buffyverse...

I'm seeing how the writers handled the end of Oz and Willow in a new light.  True, it was a clear rush-job (and character assassination) to write Seth Green out of the show, but when Willow catches Oz and Veruca together, the whole thing is still skewed to make Oz more sympathetic.  He uses every excuse in the book: that he "had" to lock her in the cage with him, that he "wasn't sure" if they actually had sex, he's not responsible because "the wolf" took over...he even brings up the whole Xander/Willow debacle.  Not ONCE did he take responsibility for his actions.  It was all portrayed as Veruca being the evil homewrecker.  Yes, technically, she WAS  an evil homewrecker, but does not mitigate Oz's choices.  Then it all just ended with "the wolf is inside me, and until I figure out what that means, I can't be with you or anyone else" and he leaves.

And now it aggravates me more than ever that when Oz came back and apparently had his abilities under control, his regression was blamed on Willow moving on with Tara.  That Willow was the reason he could no longer control himself.  Never mind the fact that she had every right to move on with her life, and that Oz never even tried to contact her beforehand, and oh lets not forget the fact that HE CHEATED ON HER.  Nope, Willow was the source of all Oz's pain.  Ugh.

[vibeology]

9 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Honestly, Anya wouldn't have gotten away with a tenth of the things she did if she were a misogynist serial killer of women instead of a misandrist serial killer of men. The latter was somehow considered oh, so hilarious. I think it's easier for female villains in fiction to not be considered truly evil by their creators and this can come off as sort of sexist. Not that there aren't plenty of male Karma Houdinis in the Whedoneverse, far from it, but as despicable as say Spike was, his murders weren't usually presented as funny stories that the viewers should laugh at, the way Anya's were. It just seems to me that many writers love portraying female villains as misguided and/or easily manipulated by the "real", that is to say male, villains.

Yes and No. I mean Andrew didn't kill as many women as Anya did men, but Andrew was funny so they glossed over all his disgusting actions too. That was one big problem with BtVS - they glossed over things that were often otherwise big deals for a joke. Andrew tormented Buffy, tried to rape someone, played a role in that person's death and then later killed Jonathan but by the end of the show he's a trusted Guest-age who exists for the joke.

Hell, we were supposed to love Jonathan and he definitely raped those twins in Superstar. Because in other stories using magic to make someone love you/want to sleep with you was framed as wrong, but when Jonathan did it no one seemed all that upset and the show itself created the conceit where everyone forgot what he did, wiping his slate clean.

The ton problems also plagued Anya. Her character and stories were funny so never mind she had as high a body-count as demons Buffy slayed every week. There was very much a sense of "they had it coming" with Anya's victims when no, breaking up with someone shouldn't mean that you're tortured for all eternity or killed in a gruesome way.

I love the show because it means so much to me and because Buffy herself is a flawed but inspiring character but the show had some very serious issues around gender. And race, because that's the whitest Southern California I've ever heard of. Joss, as creator and EP, is ultimately to blame but you can find these problems in scripts by all the different writers.

[tennisgurl]

Yeah, as much as I love the Buffyverse (and I truly do), it definitely has some serious gender issues running throughout. 

One aspect of the whole Whedons writing that I always dislike is how...gendered he makes the bad things that happen to his female characters, and the way villains treat them. We get so many scenes of evil strawmen bad guys who are He Man Woman Haters who exist to Hate Women (the evil priest in Buffy, the women killing demon in Angel) or it will be added to make villains seem worse, even if it does nothing except make the audience dislike them (Loki basically calling Natasha a C Word, Jubal Early in Firefly going on a rant about women being unworthy of childbirth), and while having a bad guy with bad views isn't really a bad thing, its just so cliche and pointless most of the time, and brings so much attention to the heroes gender, that you feel like the writers cant stop reminding you "Our hero is a WOMEN!!!!" instead of just "Our hero is a HERO!!!!", like they feel just So Cool about having a female character as a hero, and they feel like they have to shove it in your face every second. 

We also have the tendency to have women be attacked and hurt in stereotypical "female" ways, especially involving childbirth and sexual assault. You had Buffy being almost raped by Spike, the mystical death pregnancies of Cordelia and Fred, rape threat against Kayley, the forced sterilization of Natasha, constant slut shaming for Inara (even by the hero!), and, to top it all off, the whole origin of the Slayer on Buffy was a big rape analogy. That was always just super gross to me. I get that slayers are used by the Watchers, and they needed to break free because of Girl Power, but does EVERYTHING involving female characters have to stem back to metaphorical(or literal) rape? If it was a series of men, men and women, would that have been that backstory? It just seems so unnecessary. Like 'well we have this line of magic women, so...rape! Thats what happens to oppressed women right?!"

[slf]

20 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

And right after that Anya tried to trick his friends into wishing for Xander's death. Maybe he was right about her, after all.  Of course, him being more disgusted by her sleeping with a serial kilelr rather than her being a serial killer is sexist and nonsensical but that's par for the course for BtVS season 6. Their whole relationship was bizarre and out of place, if you ask me, because the show took Anya seriously once in a blue moon.

Honestly, Anya wouldn't have gotten away with a tenth of the things she did if she were a misogynist serial killer of women instead of a misandrist serial killer of men. The latter was somehow considered oh, so hilarious. I think it's easier for female villains in fiction to not be considered truly evil by their creators and this can come off as sort of sexist. Not that there aren't plenty of male Karma Houdinis in the Whedoneverse, far from it, but as despicable as say Spike was, his murders weren't usually presented as funny stories that the viewers should laugh at, the way Anya's were. It just seems to me that many writers love portraying female villains as misguided and/or easily manipulated by the "real", that is to say male, villains.

3

Misandry, like reverse racism and heterophobia, is not a thing that exists. Anya doing something terrible doesn't negate Xander's terribleness. Xander can be seen as "having a point" but the way he chose to express that point is pretty damning of the character, the writers, and the show's professed politics.

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Yeah, as much as I love the Buffyverse (and I truly do), it definitely has some serious gender issues running throughout. 

One aspect of the whole Whedons writing that I always dislike is how...gendered he makes the bad things that happen to his female characters, and the way villains treat them. We get so many scenes of evil strawmen bad guys who are He Man Woman Haters who exist to Hate Women (the evil priest in Buffy, the women killing demon in Angel) or it will be added to make villains seem worse, even if it does nothing except make the audience dislike them (Loki basically calling Natasha a C Word, Jubal Early in Firefly going on a rant about women being unworthy of childbirth), and while having a bad guy with bad views isn't really a bad thing, its just so cliche and pointless most of the time, and brings so much attention to the heroes gender, that you feel like the writers cant stop reminding you "Our hero is a WOMEN!!!!" instead of just "Our hero is a HERO!!!!", like they feel just So Cool about having a female character as a hero, and they feel like they have to shove it in your face every second. 

We also have the tendency to have women be attacked and hurt in stereotypical "female" ways, especially involving childbirth and sexual assault. You had Buffy being almost raped by Spike, the mystical death pregnancies of Cordelia and Fred, rape threat against Kayley, the forced sterilization of Natasha, constant slut shaming for Inara (even by the hero!), and, to top it all off, the whole origin of the Slayer on Buffy was a big rape analogy. That was always just super gross to me. I get that slayers are used by the Watchers, and they needed to break free because of Girl Power, but does EVERYTHING involving female characters have to stem back to metaphorical(or literal) rape? If it was a series of men, men and women, would that have been that backstory? It just seems so unnecessary. Like 'well we have this line of magic women, so...rape! Thats what happens to oppressed women right?!"

Yes, thank you. Violence in the Whedonverse is extremely gendered and totally unnecessary. 

[selkie]

I liked Xander for the same reason I like Sam and  her family on 'Better Things'. They're flawed people who sometimes make bad decisions for all the wrong reasons but try to make it all right again between the last commercial break and the end of the episode. I find that kind of character interesting and complex and I'd rather watch them than the stock brooding anti-hero rebel in a leather biker coat.  

[galax-arena]

The spell has made all love-crazed women turn murderously violent!

Too bad they didn't succeed in killing him.

[Wiendish Fitch]

2 hours ago, galax-arena said:

 

Too bad they didn't succeed in killing him.

Well, that would mean Xander would suffer a lasting consequence, wouldn't it? We can't have that! Noooooo, he needs to be rewarded with having his girlfriend get back together with him and his crime neatly swept under the rug!

[galax-arena]

Quote

I liked Xander for the same reason I like Sam and  her family on 'Better Things'. They're flawed people who sometimes make bad decisions for all the wrong reasons but try to make it all right again between the last commercial break and the end of the episode.

Flawed characters are interesting. What's not interesting (IMO) is when the narrative doesn't actually treat or frame the characters' flaws as, well, flaws. Xander might have done the right thing in not taking advantage of Buffy - what a swell guy - but the story completely glossed over the fact that he brazenly violated Cordelia's autonomy and consent in the first place. 

Same goes for Willow and Tara's relationship. It was great when Tara asked Willow what the hell was wrong with her. But that call out didn't go far enough. It's like the show writers were (barely) aware that what Willow was doing to Tara was messed up, but they couldn't comprehend just how fucked it was. Willow violated Tara's mind and effectively took away her ability to consent. And they continued to have sex in the meantime. Yo, that's rape. 

Edited October 26, 2017 by galax-arena

[Wiendish Fitch]

27 minutes ago, galax-arena said:

Flawed characters are interesting. What's not interesting (IMO) is when the narrative doesn't actually treat or frame the characters' flaws as, well, flaws. Xander might have done the right thing in not taking advantage of Buffy - what a swell guy - but the story completely glossed over the fact that he brazenly violated Cordelia's autonomy and consent in the first place. 

Same goes for Willow and Tara's relationship. It was great when Tara asked Willow what the hell was wrong with her. But that call out didn't go far enough. It's like the show writers were (barely) aware that what Willow was doing to Tara was messed up, but they couldn't comprehend just how fucked it was. Willow violated Tara's mind and effectively took away her ability to consent. Yo, that's rape. 

 

Damn skippy. No one here is saying that characters shouldn't have flaws; what we are saying is that those flaws should be addressed, and that there should be goddamned consequences. Showing my age and going back to Babylon 5, I adored the witty bon vivant Londo Mollari, but he had more than his share of flaws; he was ruthless, calculating, ambitious, impulsive, short-sighted, and he made horrible choices with devastating consequences for everyone, himself most of all. Trust me, I get no self-righteous glee in stating that Londo, much as I loved him, charming as he was, brought his downfall on himself. The show wisely framed him as sympathetic, but ultimately responsible for his actions. That's good writing, IMO. I think even the most beloved characters should suffer consequences, big or small, if they fuck up. For God's sake, Walter White suffered the consequences for his actions, there's no reason Xander shouldn't. And I hope no one is going to use Angel as a comparison; Angel was re-souled by the gypsies, doomed to live with the crushing guilt of centuries of misery he inflicted as Angelus. If that isn't the ultimate punishment, I don't know what is.

 

Xander deserved an Old Testament-worthy verbal rending  from all the women who suffered under the spell and a kick in the balls by Cordelia, not a lighthearted happy ending that might as well have involved everyone saying, "Oh, Xander!" (*freeze frame, cut to end theme music*).

Quote

 

I liked Xander for the same reason I like Sam and  her family on 'Better Things'. They're flawed people who sometimes make bad decisions for all the wrong reasons but try to make it all right again between the last commercial break and the end of the episode.

 

Xander did not make things right the aforementioned episode, Giles and Amy did. If Xander had been guilt-stricken, gone on an arduous quest to find a way to break the spell, succeeded after a trial or two, and sincerely begged everyone's forgiveness (especially Cordelia), that would support your argument, but that's not what happened. Xander is a useless load from beginning to end.

One more thing before I get off my soapbox:

There is nothing-ABSOLUTELY NOTHING-noble or heroic about NOT taking advantage of someone, especially someone who is not in their right mind. That is the barest minimum of human decency; you don't deserve a gold star or a cookie, much less a girlfriend or boyfriend. 

Edited October 26, 2017 by Wiendish Fitch

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

I think even the most beloved characters should suffer consequences, big or small, if they fuck up. For God's sake, Walter White suffered the consequences for his actions, there's no reason Xander shouldn't. And I hope no one is going to use Angel as a comparison; Angel was re-souled by the gypsies, doomed to live with the crushing guilt of centuries of misery he inflicted as Angelus. If that isn't the ultimate punishment, I don't know what is.

Angel murdered thousands of people and his punishment is... eternal life? I don't think he is a particularly great example of receiving a comeuppance. The ultimate punishment for Angel would have been, to, I don't know, stay in the hell dimension where he ended up after Becoming II. It always bugs me when people claim Xander got off lightly compared to the rest of the cast considering that much of it consisted of literal serial killers who got a slap on the wrist at best. Was Xander a Karma Houdini at times? Sure but so was almost everybody else and at least he didn't actually murder people (well, except for Once, More with Spuffy where he idiotically left people burn to death and yet none of his friends bothered to so much as criticize him for that). Whether one thinks Xander is the worst character ever or their favourite one, I think it would be hard to defend the idea he is more of a Karma Houdini than Spike, Anya, Willow, Angel, Andrew or Faith. Joss Whedon sure believes in giving character a second, third and a millionth chance, especially if they happen to be fan favourites.

Quote

Xander did not make things right the aforementioned episode, I'm fairly certain Giles did (it's been ages since I've seen it). If Xander had been guilt-stricken, gone on an arduous quest to find a way to break the spell, succeeded after a trial or two, and sincerely begged everyone's forgiveness (especially Cordelia), that would support your argument, but that's not what happened. Xander is a useless load from beginning to end.

Well, he did save Cordelia from the mob of girls who were trying to beat her up. Though, I agree that he should have done more and that the resolution of the episode was way too sitcom-y and easy,

Edited October 26, 2017 by Jack Shaftoe

[Spartan Girl]

23 hours ago, galax-arena said:

Flawed characters are interesting. What's not interesting (IMO) is when the narrative doesn't actually treat or frame the characters' flaws as, well, flaws. Xander might have done the right thing in not taking advantage of Buffy - what a swell guy - but the story completely glossed over the fact that he brazenly violated Cordelia's autonomy and consent in the first place. 

Same goes for Willow and Tara's relationship. It was great when Tara asked Willow what the hell was wrong with her. But that call out didn't go far enough. It's like the show writers were (barely) aware that what Willow was doing to Tara was messed up, but they couldn't comprehend just how fucked it was. Willow violated Tara's mind and effectively took away her ability to consent. And they continued to have sex in the meantime. Yo, that's rape. 

Yeah, and even though the rape issue was glossed over, Willow didn't get off scot-free.  Tara left her and she hit rock-bottom with her magic-addiction.  Even though she and Tara got back together, it wasn't right away.  Willow had to work her way back up.  She dealt with the consequences, unlike Xander.

[Spartan Girl]

Does anyone remember how Ugly Betty tackled harassment in the workplace? Betty wound up having to work for her bitter ex-boyfriend Matt, who clearly only took the job out of pure spite. He then uses his new position to undermine her career and basically make her as miserable as possible. And when Betty finally called him out on it, he goes into a long spiel about how miserable he is after the breakup and that he hates himself for how he's acting...a thinly veiled attempt to get the audience to forget that he was a total prick.

And several episodes later, they get back together.

I hated that storyline back then, and even more so now ????????

Then again, that was another example of a show that wasn't as feminist as it pretended to be. Every time Betty tried to grow as a person or focus on a career, she'd get a self-righteous lecture from her family, friends, and her louse of a first boyfriend Walter that she was being selfish or selling out. And it was especially frustrating when you remember how many times Betty busted her ass to take care of her family -- making sure her father had HMO, trying to keep him from being deported, holding everything together when her sister's baby daddy died. But whenever she did anything for herself, those ungrateful jerks acted like she was the worst person ever. Ugh.