Episode v. Feeds: To Tell the Truth

[Eolivet]

I was actually thinking about Vanessa's edit compared to someone like Amanda: who legitimately ran the house and was also kind of crazy. But she was "Power-Hungry Bitch" crazy -- a familiar archetype in reality television. The show had plenty of DRs (eventually) of people hating her, but she also got DRs about people doing what she wanted. It was an overthrow of the queen when she was evicted, but at least she got to be the queen. She headed an alliance. She was relevant. I feel like Vanessa is being edited into irrelevance -- or her only relevance is that she's annoying and people complain about her in the DR (without giving her the opportunity to at least explain herself). On the show, she's basically Gina Marie with better comp skills and minus the Nick fixation.

 

And again, I think it's because the show doesn't know how to treat her -- because she's not a power-hungry bitch, but she has legitimate people-reading skills but they're unfortunately wrapped up in a whirling dervish of paranoia and emotion. So, rather than trying to use her to their advantage, TV-wise, they've decided it's easier to just to make her the fly in the ointment and focus on creating lovable dude characters instead.

[peachmangosteen]

I think it's because the show doesn't know how to treat her ...

 

I agree. Vanessa is, I think, a hard player to edit on the show. Especially if she isn't giving them DRs that say "I had that manic breakdown for strategy."

 

Ultimately the edits are always very simple. They go with the easiest story to tell and the one they feel is gonna be most liked by the audience.

[Kris117]

I agree with that. She barrages people with long minutes of rhetoric, and then comes back at them again later, and often says the exact same thing. Or something 180° different. She doesn't do pithy sound bites.

I get what you're saying, but I watch the feeds and honestly I don't think Vanessa has really done that much to save herself. She just isn't that great of a player imo. 

 

I didn't think about the fan fave hating her leading to the audience hating her, but it's a good point. But still, the editing is not showing Vanessa in her full insane, insufferable glory, so she is being somewhat protected there imo.

I do think Vanessa is playing a great game in spite of herself. She's her own worst enemy, yet she still manages to stay in the house week after week, no matter how many times people say they need to get rid of her. She is good at convincing or bullying people to see things her way, but instead of settling for the yes, she keeps coming at people.

[Petunia13]

Why is the title so long?

[Nashville]

Why is the title so long?

 

So the other titles will be jealous?  :)

[ennui]

As a casual observer, it seems like the broadcasts are full of diary room talks. I would expect the live feeds to not have any DRs.

[pennben]

They don't show the DRs on the feeds, but, boy howdy, I would pay a premium to have a DR camera available on the feeds.

[peachmangosteen]

They don't show the DRs on the feeds, but, boy howdy, I would pay a premium to have a DR camera available on the feeds.

 

Right! I would love to know what they're actually thinking and not just get the scripted bits.

[candall]

I'm seeing an alarming number of people being pleased to imagine Austin winning the whole thing.  I don't understand.  I've watched every minute of the broadcast show and he seems utterly worthless to me, except sometimes his size is an advantage in the competitions.  Has he really done something besides pressure one twin into a relationship and net the other as a bonus?

 

All his talk about his uncertainty as to which way he should swing the game is toothless nonsense.  The three women sally forth from the HoH room to mingle and gather information and then Austin does whatever Vanessa tells him.

 

No one likes Vanessa, but she's lied, cried, threatened, cajoled and steamrollered herself to safety thus far. 

 

The King of the Jungle really just lazes in the sun and roars, feasting first after the pride brings down a gazelle.

 

.

[peachmangosteen]

Austin's social game is 100% the best in the house.

[Cutty]

Once again Vanessa is lying in the DR. She wasn't going to target Austin no matter what James and Meg told her. She would have just used that information against them. Also saying "sorry Meg and James" in the DR made me shout "shut the fuck up" at my TV.

[candall]

Austin's social game is 100% the best in the house.

But is he in the running to win this thing because he manifested a great social game or because he glommed onto a wombmate?  I mean, inasmuch as no one resents the swimming pool in the backyard, it played a fine social game, too.

 

Snarkiful, but still a serious question.  I'm new and still doping out the strategic nuances.  Has Austin taken a risk or devised a move, other than hashtag-gross-fingergate?

 

.

[Ceeg]

I think anyone who can successfully navigate to Day 70+, without ever having been on the block while also being in a showmance with a twin, is playing a pretty good social and strategic game. 

[Nashville]

I think anyone who can successfully navigate to Day 70+, without ever having been on the block while also being in a showmance with a twin, is playing a pretty good social and strategic game.

At the very least - by whatever means, it still makes a heckuva good argument to throw at the Jury in an F2 speech. It implies approaching a Dan-good level of game, which disturbs the crap outta me when associated with Austin.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Nashville

[ennui]

I think anyone who can successfully navigate to Day 70+, without ever having been on the block while also being in a showmance with a twin, is playing a pretty good social and strategic game.

I don't think it's social as much as strategic. Austin aligned with the twins pretty quickly. This game is based on alliances, after all.

[Eolivet]

From what I recall from the live feed thread, the order of the events was James "confronting" Vanessa and then Vanessa having the conversation with Austin about nominating Julia. From the show, it looked like "Vanessa has conversation with Austin, Liz and Julia and is convinced to put up Johnny Mac. Then James confronts Vanessa and she gets mad and makes an emotional decision to nominate Julia instead."

 

The description of the livefeeds absolutely blew my mind -- that Vanessa was able to convince Austin and Liz to put up Julia (and then that side conversation about how Austin could make deals for him or him and his girlfriend, but not three people). That was great strategic thinking and it seemed like she was sticking to her guns and playing the game for herself, not her alliance.

 

But of course, she's not as good a character as the "country boy" so her strategic thinking gets shafted in the editing. Again.

[Turtle]

In case anyone is wondering, Julia knew she was going up and they had all agreed to it.

[Cutty]

Another golden edit for Vanessa. Left out her whining and crying. She also didn't help clean up after the veto. Production trying to make her look sane for the inevitable win. 

[candall]

Another golden edit for Vanessa. Left out her whining and crying. She also didn't help clean up after the veto. Production trying to make her look sane for the inevitable win. 

Just out of curiosity , who DID help clean up?  I was afraid a bunch of production assistants would be tasked with that job.

 

James lost several points with me by trashing the kitchen.  Maybe his goal was creating the effect that the kitchen had been thoroughly searched, but his veto wasn't even in that room, so wtf? 

[Ceeg]

Another golden edit for Vanessa. Left out her whining and crying. She also didn't help clean up after the veto. Production trying to make her look sane for the inevitable win. 

She helped clean up. She just didn't start until about 30 minutes later because she was upstairs recovering. But then she went downstairs and helped clean the kitchen. And she vacuumed.

 

Also, idk what part of that episode was a golden edit. 

Edited September 3, 2015 by Ceeg

[peachmangosteen]

I find it so funny and interesting that some people are seeing Vanessa get a good edit and some are seeing her get a bad edit. Just goes to show you that it's all about perception.

 

IMO Vanessa is getting a really good edit in terms of making her seem more likable than she actually is for sure. I also think they've made her out to be more of a mastermind who keeps saving herself when that really isn't the case.

Edited September 3, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[Nashville]

I find it so funny and interesting that some people are seeing Vanessa get a good edit and some are seeing her get a bad edit. Just goes to show you that it's all about perception.

IMO Vanessa is getting a really good edit in terms of making her seem more likable than she actually is for sure. I also think they've made her out to be more of a mastermind who keeps saving herself when that really isn't the case.

Most of the time, yes - but not in that edit of the "I'M playing too hard!?!?" convo with James; V came off a tad deranged in that. I was waiting for her head to start spinning and pea soup to start shooting out of her mouth....

ETA: Correcting damn Autocorrect

Edited September 3, 2015 by Nashville

[peachmangosteen]

Most of the time, yes - but not in that edit of the "*I'M* plaything too hard!?!?" convo with James; V came off a tad deranged in that. I was waiting for her head to start spinning and pea soup to start shooting out of her mouth....

 

I missed that part of the ep, but lol. Can't say I blame the editing there though, she was deranged in that moment! I guess if they were giving her a really good edit they just wouldn't have shown that.

Edited September 3, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[pennben]

I missed the episode as well, but watched on the feeds when that happened...as soon as those words were out of James's mouth, I thought DANGER, DANGER DANGER!!  I knew she was going to blow.  If he had said, you're playing the game hard versus saying "too hard", I'm not sure the crazy would have come out. 

Edited September 3, 2015 by pennben

[blixie]

I'd have more tolerance for this constant mantra that X is playing the game too hard, if the rest of the hammies had bothered playing AT ALL., but since the source of that comment is about the fact that they'd rather play potball all day long than figure out how their going to win 500K, fuck em.

[Turtle]

From the episode thread:

Liz and her little tantrum during noms just proved what an entitled brat she is and I hope she goes home. I'm not sure what's best for Steve's game, though. Initially I thought sending Liz home would be best because that would be the surest way to split the trio, as Austin and Julia have the weakest personal link. But J-mac did make a good point about Austin maybe getting tighter with his old buddy Vanessa. But then again, get rid of him and you still have the twins, and they're always going to be tighter than any other pairing. SO yea, I still think send Liz home.

I'm no Liz fan, but I don't think her leaving the ceremony was as bratty as it seemed. She said several times on the feeds that she was so embarrassed about crying and she felt like a big baby. I think she was surprised by how upset she was and wanted to go hide while she cried- it's happened a couple of other times and she's had the same response. She cries, and then complains that she's embarrassed about crying. Yes, still a bit of a brat, especially with her shit-talking, but I think her crying and leaving was less a temper tantrum and more just being overwhelmed emotionally and not knowing how to handle it.

I've been back and forth on the edit Vanessa is getting. They've showed a little bit of her crazy, but I think they've shown way more of her "masterminding." However, what they haven't shown is all the times that she's had theories about people and their plans/ strategy that have been totally wrong; instead, they're only showing things she's been right about, and that makes her look like a much better player than I think she is. That's not to say she hasn't done a good job on a bunch of things, but she's been wrong a lot too and that hasn't been aired as much.

[Moxie CrimeFighter]

James lost several points with me by trashing the kitchen.  Maybe his goal was creating the effect that the kitchen had been thoroughly searched, but his veto wasn't even in that room, so wtf? 

 

Just catching up with this thread... yeah, James trashed the kitchen because it was probably fun for him, but partly out of spite. He told Meg on the feeds that during the comp when production gave him the 30-seconds-left warning, he tossed their cereal before running out of the house (and acted it out for her quite amusingly). James couldn't eat that week - he and Meg were made to be Have Nots by Vanessa, when it was Liz and Austin's turn to volunteer. Austin was a big baby about it and refused to volunteer and anyway Vanessa wanted to use HNs as strategy to weaken her enemies. (Not that it worked obvi.) I mean, all of them had done it twice by then, so a few people were going to have go a third time (and it was the final HN week) so it wasn't really going to be fair either way. No one was too upset about it, they just mocked Austin a bit, but dumping their food was a small act of revenge by James.

[RedheadZombie]

@Turtle, I agree Liz was not having a temper tantrum.  When Steve started explaining the noms, her lips were trembling, and she was attempting to smile.  She got up and left because she was going to full blown cry.  She mumbled something like - I'm such a baby - as she walked away.

[Ceeg]

Liz said later that Steve's speech made her cry because he was really sweet. He talked about their friendship and "Stiz" and I think that's part of the reason Liz got emotional at the nomination ceremony. It wasn't because she was shocked or blindsided, because Steve and Austin had already told her before the nomination ceremony what was going to happen.

[candall]

 James couldn't eat that week - he and Meg were made to be Have Nots by Vanessa, when it was Liz and Austin's turn to volunteer. Austin was a big baby about it and refused to

volunteer and anyway Vanessa wanted to use HNs as strategy to weaken her enemies.

Well, there you go.  They chose to make this whole "Have Not" thing a non-issue--presumably because there's no drama when it's volunteer instead of draft--when in reality it's an intriguing extra element, particularly to newbies like me.  Then when it generates something juicy like "Austin takes a pass when it's his turn," it's too late to introduce.

 

The HN's haven't been shown to have the weakies all summer.  I'm surprised Vanessa didn't shy away from getting, if not blood, some snot on her hands.

 

 

 

.

Edited September 7, 2015 by candall

[Cosmocrush]

Well, there you go.  They chose to make this whole "Have Not" thing a non-issue--presumably because there's no drama when it's volunteer instead of draft--when in reality it's an intriguing extra element, particularly to newbies like me.  Then when it generates something juicy like "Austin takes a pass when it's his turn," it's too late to introduce.

 

The HN's haven't been shown to have the weakies all summer.  I'm surprised Vanessa didn't shy away from getting, if not blood, some snot on her hands.

I've hated that they basically cut the Have Not thing out of the show.  My co-workers who only watch the show didn't even know they were doing Have Nots this season.  I don't know why the show bothered doing it if they weren't going to include it in the show but I suspect alot of things were cut in order to make room for that lame BOB.  

 

On Vanessa's edit I would add that one thing they haven't been able to broadcast is just how annoying she can be with her non-stop high school debate style of making her case  - or should I say bending the hgs to do her will.   

[Eolivet]

Interesting that Austin got a DR saying that he'd come to the realization that he had to play the game for himself. I believe from the live feed threads, Vanessa was the first to point that out to him (the whole "you can't protect three people" convo). But if that was the case, of course it appears he co-opted Vanessa's thoughts and made them his own. (again, going from live thread recaps)

 

But if they'd actually included that convo in last week's show, they wouldn't have had time for another riveting installment of #CaptainCamo.

[Turtle]

I wish they would either do away with the Have Nots altogether, or have a competition for it again. All it does now is make show-only fans wonder why some people were always in dentist chairs or why JMac started looking really malnourished for a bit. (Seriously. I adore the kid, but he's sporting some serious purple eye-circles, even though he's been sleeping 18 hours a day.). Occasionally, the Have Not room can build up or strengthen relationships because they tend to all cook and eat together, and obviously sleep in the same room, but you never see that on the show because they don't ever talk about Have Nots.

And Cosmocrush, I agree that the show has not shown even a third of Vanessa's annoying-ness. She's on and on about the game almost every waking moment (that is not hyperbole), and so much like a broken clock is right twice a day, she occasionally stumbles onto something true. I've never understood why any of them much less most of them seem to actuall like her, and believe her.

[peachmangosteen]

On Vanessa's edit I would add that one thing they haven't been able to broadcast is just how annoying she can be with her non-stop high school debate style of making her case  - or should I say bending the hgs to do her will.

This. It's so exhausting. And she even does it when the game isn't involved. When they were playing BB Chopped for fun and she wasn't even one of the judges or the host, she makes her way in and starts talking about how/why they need to vote the way they do. It's just for fun, Vanessa, stfu! And you aren't even a part of it for fuck's sake!

 

And Cosmocrush, I agree that the show has not shown even a third of Vanessa's annoying-ness. She's on and on about the game almost every waking moment (that is not hyperbole), and so much like a broken clock is right twice a day, she occasionally stumbles onto something true. I've never understood why any of them much less most of them seem to actuall like her, and believe her.

Yea, they only ever show when Vanessa is right about something, but not the 5000 times she has been completely off base and just legit crazy about what's going on in the house. And they really should've because her theories are hilarious in their insanity.

Edited September 8, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[Kris117]

But that's why I think she's playing a game-and-a-half, and running rings around everyone else in the house. She's done more damage to her own game than any other player intentionally has and yet she still manages to pull herself about, get back on course, and persuade others that what benefits her game most is exactly what will benefit their game most. Is it pretty? No, and she is incredibly annoying and enervating to watch, but almost every week, the person she has wanted to go home has gone home. Plenty can go wrong from now until the end, but her ability to work with adverse circumstances gives her a huge edge over anyone else in the house in my book.

If this were Survivor, though, I'd say she's getting a winner's edit.

[candall]

If I were a houseguest, wondering what kind of chicanery was going on behind my back, I wouldn't have a hard time convincing myself that the confident person endlessly spouting game theory was a skillful player doping out moves sixteen steps ahead of me.  I'd be afraid to take on Vanessa, just as they all seem to be.

 

Note:  When they put out a casting call for the Unhip Seniors Edition, don't let me go.  I'd just be grist for the mill.

 

 

[Kris117]

You and I can sit at home and watch that together while taking our Mylanta™. *

CBS would never go for it, but I think it would be fun to watch. Or any casting that is a flip from the usual. Majority black house, with a couple of token whites, or majority LGBT and token heteronormatives.

*I have never ever taken Mylanta™. Used for comic effect only.

[candall]

*I have never ever taken Mylanta™.

Nor I, but I have discovered Gold Bond Medicated Powder to be fo shizzle.

[cgogis]

I know the show sometimes pulls conversations from earlier in the season & throws them into an episode when it suits them, so I'm curious if that convo between Liz & Julia about Austin was actually recent or was it from earlier in the season? Not that I think it means she no longer feels that way if it was earlier, but I'm curious if she ever does talk to Julia about anything she might like about Austin (if there is anything). Such a weird "relationship"...

[liqidclark]

This. It's so exhausting. And she even does it when the game isn't involved. When they were playing BB Chopped for fun and she wasn't even one of the judges or the host, she makes her way in and starts talking about how/why they need to vote the way they do. It's just for fun, Vanessa, stfu! And you aren't even a part of it for fuck's sake!

 

I'm not saying Vanessa is or isn't playing too hard, because we don't know that yet, but that's a bad example. She actually was on the judging team during BB Chopped, as a presentation judge since she was a Have-Not at the time and couldn't taste the food. I don't remember her trying to force the other judges' scores, either, she just kept the process moving so they could come to a decision. And she did all the math for them so they'd know the final scores, of course.

[peachmangosteen]

I'm not saying Vanessa is or isn't playing too hard, because we don't know that yet, but that's a bad example. She actually was on the judging team during BB Chopped, as a presentation judge since she was a Have-Not at the time and couldn't taste the food. I don't remember her trying to force the other judges' scores, either, she just kept the process moving so they could come to a decision. And she did all the math for them so they'd know the final scores, of course.

 

I watched the lead up to the comp and John was the presentation judge. I didn't hear them say anything about Vanessa being one, but maybe after she forced her way into giving her opinions they just let her have it. (This is how any strategy convo with her goes.)

 

Every time Vanessa talks she appears to me to be forcing her opinions on everyone. I still can't believe she wouldn't let John own targeting her and instead tried to force him to believe he was too stupid to think the way he was thinking. LOL.

Edited September 9, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[Kittykatkins]

I've hated that they basically cut the Have Not thing out of the show. My co-workers who only watch the show didn't even know they were doing Have Nots this season. I don't know why the show bothered doing it if they weren't going to include it in the show but I suspect alot of things were cut in order to make room for that lame BOB.

I really hate the whole stupid have/have not thing as I feel it interferes too much with the game itself. (Don't even get me started on BOTB!). It's a relatively recent addition (season 11)and although it may have worked well with that season's theme (high-school cliques, GMAB!)it's done nothing but drag down each succeeding season, IMHO, and I wish they'd eliminate it altogether. Then again, I still don't like the innovation that is called "slop"---give me good ol' PB & J anytime, LOL!

[Nashville]

I know the show sometimes pulls conversations from earlier in the season & throws them into an episode when it suits them, so I'm curious if that convo between Liz & Julia about Austin was actually recent or was it from earlier in the season? Not that I think it means she no longer feels that way if it was earlier, but I'm curious if she ever does talk to Julia about anything she might like about Austin (if there is anything). Such a weird "relationship"...

Good catch, and I noticed it myself at the time. :) Yes, that hammock conversation actually took place about a month or so ago, IIRC - fairly shortly after Julia first entered the House full-time.

I watched the lead up to the comp and John was the presentation judge. I didn't hear them say anything about Vanessa being one, but maybe after she forced her way into giving her opinions they just let her have it. (This is how any strategy convo with her goes.)

V wasn't a judge - at least, not initially. "Official" judges were John (HN = presentation-only), Becky, and Meg.

Every time Vanessa talks she appears to me to be forcing her opinions on everyone. I still can't believe she wouldn't let John own targeting her and instead tried to force him to believe he was too stupid to think the way he was thinking. LOL.

V's best moments are when she is in jeopardy Game-wise, her back is against the wall, and her plots and machinations have a goal on which to focus. Her worst moments are when she is not, because she can't shut off that part of her brain; the web-spinning part of her brain has no direction or focus, and wanders into some very interesting territory you won't find on any map.

Also - when fully engaged in conversation, I've noticed V is apparently one of those people who frequently have severe problems following a thought through to completion without verbal expression; she can't finish thinking it until she says it out loud. Back when everybody here was engaged in the "Does Steve have Asperger's?" discussion, I was initially wondering if the same rationale might not also have been applied to V; upon further observation, though, I think hers is much more likely an ADHD manifestation than Asperger's.

ETA: Correcting damn Autocorrect.

I typed " shortly after Julia first entered the House full-time".

"First" - NOT "fist".

BIIIG difference.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Nashville

[Nashville]

Vent time.

For the last few days I've wanted nothing more than to see last night's episode (#34), and for a specific reason. Not because of the Bowlerina crap, but something else entirely - Steve's renomination speech during the Veto Meeting.

Ever since the actual VM took place, I've/we've been teased by comments from the other HGs about what a beautiful speech Steve gave in naming Julia as a replacement nom - especially from the twins themselves. BOTH at different times have said that as much as their current situation sucks, they can't hold it against Steve because of the genuine affection for both of them he communicated in his renom speech. And it's been mentioned enough for curiosity to start driving me crazy - what the hell did this usually-stammering kid pull out of his back pocket potent enough to defuse THESE two?

So - it's finally episode time, then it's VM tine, then it's time for Steve's tour de force of a speech - and what do we get??? "I'm sorry, Julia - take a seat."

They CUT it. Production cut ALL of Steve's speech, except for the last sentence.

AAAARRRRGGGGHHHHHH.

HULK CRUSH. HULK KILL!

[AndreaK1041]

I would have liked to hear that too.  Steve's speech during the live show a while back was by far the best of the season.  I'd like to hear Steve vs Vanessa final 2 speeches.  Everyone else would be incoherent, except Austin who thinks if he pauses and enunciates, that is his smart voice.  Saying it slower makes me thing it's less profound, dipshit.

[peachmangosteen]

Yea, I find it very strange they didn't show his speech or how moved Liz and Julia were by it. Apparently they were crying and kissing each other's hands during the ceremony.

[Nashville]

Yea, I find it very strange they didn't show his speech or how moved Liz and Julia were by it. Apparently they were crying and kissing each other's hands during the ceremony.

EXACTLY. The way it was being described in the House, it promised to be the best Meeting speech of the entire season. So WTF happened to it!?!? Someone in Editing watched it and decided, "Nahhh... too much drama"?

In this House??

On THIS show???

REALLY!?!?!?

!!!!!ASSHOLES!!!!!

That is all.

[ghoulina]

Wow, that's really interesting. And confounding. Because without that speech, it still feels like there is a strain between Steve and the Twins. Both girls were super pissed at him at the beginning of the episode. Maybe how horribly Austin behaved upon winning his veto made them reevaluate Steve and see him in a different light? 

 

 

Although, with how Liz was back in that gorilla's arms by the end of the episode....

 

....speaking of which, was there more to their reconciliation than we saw? It seemed almost out of nowhere. 

[Ceeg]

The twins kind of vacillate between being pissed at Steve and also recognizing that it was a legit game move. But, I get the feeling that they really are genuinely friends with him, but they're also pissed that of all people, he was the one to break them up. Human emotions are complex.

 

As for the Liz/Austin reconciliation, there really wasn't a lot more. After their fight, Austin asked Vanessa to talk to Liz for him and make her see that he's not a bad guy. Which Vanessa did. She talked him up pretty well, without making Liz feel like her feelings weren't warranted. That night, Liz slept in Julia's bed, but by the morning I think she went back to Austin. 

 

I wish they'd shown more of Julia's rants about Austin though. The shit-talking that the twins did about him was epic and the feeds were amazing for about 6 hours straight post-Veto comp.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Ceeg

[Nashville]

Wow, that's really interesting. And confounding. Because without that speech, it still feels like there is a strain between Steve and the Twins. Both girls were super pissed at him at the beginning of the episode.

Oh, there's still some strain; you can't expect to put sisters OTB against each other and not get some degree of backlash. Whatever Steve said, though, took the twins from let's-jump-rope-with-his-small-intestines mode to what-a-sad-and-unfortunate-situation mode - and considering THESE two monuments to entitlement, that's something.