S03.E08: The Great Red Dragon

[DeadlyEuphoric]

See, this is why I need to find out how he convinced Molly (or Molly convinced him) that he was husband/father material.  Because Will at the end of the last ep wasn't much good for anyone but maybe his dogs.  And I am of the opinion that his time with Molly is critical to his ability to survive Hannibal again.  I think he truly needed a few years of human connection and a normal relationship to give him some armor.  Because I believe in that corny idea that having healthy human connections and love give you strength to fight evil like Hannibal.  I think it's all the Ray Bradbury I read as a kid.  Joy can beat darkness.  And I believe Fuller is a secret optimist.  I'm not sure about Harris.  I think he's too in love with Hannibal to let a traditional good guy triumph over him. 

 

So the fact that Molly is extraordinarily normal and offers Will a very stable  and warm home is important.  I really want to see that, but I'm not sure how that happens unless Will goes home during one of the Red Dragon's down periods. 

 

 

 

I do hope we get a brief flashback about Will and Molly's time together.  I also like that she seems more or less normal.  I can understand her giving her assent to Will going on the grounds she stated - if he doesn't go, he will hate himself later.  Right now she thinks that will be more toxic than anything he sees in this work.  She doesn't seem to know what he sees when he closes his eyes at night.  And I'm sure Will hides it from her with every fiber of his being.  I won't say he has a person suit, but I think he has strong barriers between the different acts of his life.

 

 

ITA though I'm not sure this show is the one to portray that kind of positivity.  As far as Molly, anyone who likes having that many dogs around is OK by me.  The show was smart to show them holding each other, physically close, to reinforce for us their bond.  I want Will to go back to a stable, happy home life.  I don't need to see how he got one, I think once he set his mind and body apart from Hannibal he started healing and I wouldn't be surprised that it happened pretty quickly once he was calm and determined.  Compare him to Alana, who has healed physically but still keeps up with Hannibal.  Not healthy for her IMO, in any way.  She'll never be past it like Will is (or was).

I am Ok with not seeing Will's rehabilitation process, or that he doesn't show much change but rather seems to be like his Season1 self, which to be honest I prefer, Will going back to his Season 1 self is "healthy" and normal for him, and it is not really his season 1 self, when we met him he was rather antisocial, unable to even look people in the eye, clearly uncomfortable around others. I think the Will we have has signs of the relative peacefullness of S1 Will and the strength/confidence (not sure how to best describe it) of S2 Will. Because I really don't think ALL his time with Hannibal was destructive and bad for him, and his therapy totally wasted - I think that is why the bond was so strong, Hannibal DID help Will out, did make him know more about himself and become more confident and anchored.

And I think the moment Will gained clarity on the destructiveness of Hannibal for him and how he needs to cut himself loose, not just from him but from all FBI stuff for his own sanity, he was on the fast track of rehabilitation. After getting that clarity it was probably mostly a detox process for him.

 

BUT for the sake of getting more of a feel for Will/Molly and their relationship and love, I wish we did have a few more scenes or at least some flashbacks to how they met etc... Holding onto hope for those but probably not going to see much.

 

And yes, I think at this point Alana has much more issues than Will. Will was clever to cut himself loose from Hannibal, while Alana seems to insist on subjugating herself to more of him. It is almost as if they reversed roles, Will used to be the one unable to put distance between himself and Hannibal and Alana (even when still thinking Hannibal might be innocent and Will is a murderer) was the one telling him to distance himself from Hannibal, saying it didn't do him any good.

 

 

I think Hannibal probably went to jail before the asylum, and something happened there that convinced them that specialized treatment was needed.  While he may have had a dozen or thirteen convictions, there are many more skeletons in his closet.  I've been thinking about the size of the cell, and I wonder if it is because he is not allowed any recreation time in other locations.  If this cell is his whole world, and if they do not want him to have any opportunity of influencing other prisoners, it may make sense to keep him in this corner.

 

The way the "Hannibal is arrested and taken to his cell" sequence went I got the feeling he was immediately taken to that cell (which at first didn't have any books). And then in time we see that his overalls change, as well as his cell getting more furniture and books. Which I think was them showing him getting privileges in time, maybe thanks to his lawyer, or maybe some kind of deal between him and Chilton and Alana, which may also be why they lied for him in court (kind of like the deals Will used to make when he was in jail?).

 

 

I love Hugh Dancy here.  Every scene he has to change expression just a little and he kills it every time.  On the porch with Jack, then walking through the crime scene.  Especially the latter, trying to be professionally observant but obviously disturbed by it, then he closes his eyes and immerses himself and it all changes. 

"This is my design".  I think he's fantastic.

 

He really is fantastic. This show benefits from having some great actors really, who can convey so much feeling and thought with just the simplest of moves and expressions.

 

 

Re: Hannibal's Cell. If we didn't see him imagine being in the Chapel or the Office and then "come back into the reality of the cell", I would assume his cell was just a figment of his imagination. Which it can still be, I guess, where he has "layers" of imagination in which  24/7 he is imagining his cell differently, and on top of that he wanders off to other places in his mind palace. His cell walls and fireplace match Alana's office in the building btw. It is kind of funny if he used that design for his cell, like he is imagining he is the one running the place...

 

 

ETA: The post Mortem... apparently was released before the episode, and seems shorter than the rest and just rushed...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UH9CdsNdoA 

Edited July 27, 2015 by DeadlyEuphoric

[AttackTurtle]

I don't really need the Molly/Will backstory, but I'm really hoping they switch up the Red Dragon a bit. I'm watching Manhunter again now & I can't see how the story isn't switched up for Freddie. If it doesn't stray much .... Then Fuller's gotten lazy.

[TruthFairy]

Dolarhyde slapping the paste into his scrapbook for his clippings rang false to me. This scrapbook was like a bible - he took it out with reverence and it's probably an important part of his rituals. I would have thought that he'd have applied the paste carefully, making sure that he didn't go beyond the lines of whatever he was gluing in and carefully smoothed the paste out evenly underneath. I understand that they were pressed for time for this storytelling, but it looked haphazard to me and with all of the detail applied so far, this really surprised me. Yes, he was upset about being called a fairy but as an obsessive, he wouldn't have treated his book that way.

[sluggish neko]

Oh pendulum crime reconstruction effect, how I missed you! It felt almost nostalgic to see Will back at work doing something competent other than angsting over Hannibal and getting shot, beaten, drugged, etc. That whole scene where Will investigated the house in the dark was horror movie creepy, especially with the ghostly appearance of the bodies wherever Will shined the flashlight, and also beautifully shot.

 

When Will was drinking alone with the phone in his hand, I fully expected him to drunk dial Hannibal.

[MisterGlass]

Poor Will was really showing his pain in that moment.

 

 

His cell walls and fireplace match Alana's office in the building btw.

The way the "Hannibal is arrested and taken to his cell" sequence went I got the feeling he was immediately taken to that cell (which at first didn't have any books). And then in time we see that his overalls change, as well as his cell getting more furniture and books. Which I think was them showing him getting privileges in time, maybe thanks to his lawyer, or maybe some kind of deal between him and Chilton and Alana, which may also be why they lied for him in court (kind of like the deals Will used to make when he was in jail?).

 

I think those are the walls of Hannibal's cell, not his mind palace.  Interesting that the opposite side of the glass appears to have wood paneling in contrast to the inside.  Neither matches the concrete walls of Will's area.  Both the bookcases and the fireplace appear to come into the picture later, though the fireplace is blocked up.  Perhaps looking in through the glass we see reality and while inside the glass everything is suspect.  If what we see is real, then the cell looks like it was specially built in whatever part of the asylum this is, like a disused office.  All the furniture except an inclined sketching table is industrial and bolted to the floor.  He was led to the cell shackled and controlled by orderlies with polls, but he may have been somewhere else temporarily while this was being put together.

 

I agree there must have been considerable dealing to get his in-cell resources.  I'm surprised Frederick didn't ask for a book endorsement, or a cover quote.  I could see Frederick lying to keep Hannibal alive and in their custody solely as a trophy, or perhaps because he likes the cooking (if that wasn't part of the fantasy), but then Hannibal does know the full details of what Frederick did to Abel, and that counts for something.

 

Janice Poon's blog for this episode says that the original version of the picture Hannibal is sketching with Alana's face is a depiction of fortitude.

[Snookums]

As far as Molly, anyone who likes having that many dogs around is OK by me.

 

 

Me too! Although I find it hilarious that a house with an honest to goodness pack of canines is as tidy and hair free as theirs. I don't care how many cleaning services you hire, you and all you own are going to be coated. When Will sneaked out of bed to get all Ponderous Strange right before he went to the victims' house, my husband and I were laughing our asses off at the idea of him not having to kick-shuffle his way through a sea of paws and noses. Sorry, ALL the dogs will want to sleep in the bedroom. That was by far the least believable bit of the episode.

 

I would pay a great deal of money for Hannibal/Will's first scene together to be all Fraught! and Symbolic! and the whole time dog hairs are just drifting off Will and wafting around the cell and Hannibal can barely stand it.

[mertensia]

Fellow Ohioan and I thought, "Is Will a big football fan and I missed that reference? Maybe he could go into a trance when someone swings Bronko Nagurski's ring in front of him."

Will would probably be more comfortable closer to a big river or lake, as long as he didn't have to look out for algae blooms.

I just picked Canton as sounding like someplace Hannibal would not trouble himself to go to. You can't very well use Wisconsin (my home state); Hannibal has probably made pilgrimages to Plainfield and Milwaukee. I coulda used Sunizona, Arizona though. Or Vernal Utah.

[pasdetrois]

And we're back and all is right with the world. Although the presence of Molly confused me, and I shall miss Hannibal's fabulous wardrobe.

 

 

I can't get used to Hannibal's prison haircut or Alana's 1950s hairstyle.

 

 

I think Mads has been wearing a modest toupee until now and we saw his real hair in this latest episode.

 

There's something odd about Alana's face. At first I thought it was the wigs or hair styles, but I think the actress' face is puffy around the jawline.

 

I'm interested in the story again, only to wonder every week how much more of the series we'll be able to enjoy.

[Captanne]

Watched it last night.

 

Sigh.

 

The show is back.  Is it flawless?  No.*  Was this a return to the series one and two grooviness?  Yes.  Loved every second of this episode.

 

See, I like the artsy-fartsy stuff if it is significant and plays as much of a role in the story as the acting, writing, direction, and all the other aspects that work in unison to form a narrative.

 

This show was firing on all cylinders in this episode.

 

Finally!  

 

*The only miss was that weird floaty bit in the photographic tornado.  What the hell was that mess?

Edited July 27, 2015 by Captanne

[TobinAlbers]

Interesting that Armitage agreed to do the role if he didn't have to do the violent crime scenes, while you realize that for S1 and S2 and back in this episode, Hugh Dancy has to not only reenact the crime scenes, he has to do so as the killer in question and he always nails it. How does this man not have an Emmy for this role?

 

I think my heart broke the most for Will when he was in that bedroom, hands trembling as he flipped through the file, starting to hyperventilate, nearly dry heaving, almost breaking down into a sob to cry, so afraid and not wanting to do this and yet then finally a hint of steel as he thinks 'Just fucking do it already. Give in.'

 

And he closes his eyes, becomes SO calm and clicks right back into the mindset just like that and he seems right at home again.

 

Good golly I love that swinging pendulum. I've missed it so much.

 

I agree with whoever said that I'm shocked Will didn't start throwing snowballs or firing at Jack's car when he pulled up shouting 'HELL NO get off my property!'  Or run deeper into the woods while his dogs run interference.

 

I do like that Will was thinking about the family's dog and wanting to take it in. WInston and Buster would totally help it adjust. 'You're lucky you weren't home that night, dude. WE have seen some things hanging with this guy.'

 

Seriously, was Hannibal's heart in his eyes and bursting with anticipation when he finally greeted Will at the end? Meanwhile Will was walking on eggshells trying to be formal and keep that distance you have with an 'ex' to try not to set them off.

[Crossbow]

Hannibal's hair looked the same to me, just combed differently. He was wearing it down in his eyes for most of this season.

 

Some of the food scenes seemed to be in his imagination, but with Chilton it looked like he was really serving him food.

 

They've made Dolarhyde so deranged, I don't see how

he's going to be able to hold a day job or go out with the blind chick.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Lisin
spoiler tagged

[Nutjob]

So Richard Armitage... yeah... that was pretty amazing. Both Tom Noonan and Ralph Fiennes did a great job with the character, but it already looks like Armitage might outdo them both.

Regarding Freddie,

Fuller has actually set it up perfectly for her to die the way she does in the book/other films. Dolarhyde will know Will is the one profiling him, and obviously that Freddie's "death" by fire before was faked. I can totally see him giving her that fate for real to punish Will.

 

Finally, the look on Chilton's face when he realized what kind of blood had been in Lecter's dessert when he ate it before was priceless!

Edited July 27, 2015 by Nutjob

[Snookums]

They've made Dolarhyde so deranged, I do'nt see how he's going to be able to hold a day job or go out with the blind chick.

 

 

A-men. From that very first shot in the...cafeteria? or wherever, when he's all buttoned to the neck and doing his "my hands are clawwwwws" routine I was "well, sir, we have answered the question as to why you don't have any friends." NOBODY would talk to this guy, or even walk on the same side of the street as him if they didn't have to. 

 

I have to say, however, that I will give him and all other TV And Other Media Made Up Serial Killers this; they have a helluva hobby. It just fills up all that dead time that you or I or other mere worms of mortals spend watching TV or whatever. He's always got something going on, between the exercising and crying and trips to Hong Kong and getting a full back piece and smashing mirrors and his scrapbook bible and worshiping Blake drawings and whatever. He gets a lot done.

[Neurochick]

So Richard Armitage... yeah... that was pretty amazing. Both Tom Noonan and Ralph Fiennes did a great job with the character, but it already looks like Armitage might outdo them both.

 

 

Isn't the deal with Dolarhyde, that he was told by his mother how ugly he was?  That's kind of why Fiennes and Armitage work for me, because neither of these men are unattractive IMO, so you can see how damaging someone telling a child, "you're ugly" can be.  

[Anela]

I just picked Canton as sounding like someplace Hannibal would not trouble himself to go to. You can't very well use Wisconsin (my home state); Hannibal has probably made pilgrimages to Plainfield and Milwaukee. I coulda used Sunizona, Arizona though. Or Vernal Utah.

I meant to add a smile when I responded, because it made me smile. :) I really can't see Hannibal here, but I wasn't thinking about who they were running from. 

 

http://www.theonion.com/video/blanket-of-snow-creates-illusion-that-town-not-a-t-34924

Edited July 27, 2015 by Anela

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Shooting The Moon / Lunar imagery in Hannibal.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I have to say, however, that I will give him and all other TV And Other Media Made Up Serial Killers this; they have a helluva hobby. It just fills up all that dead time that you or I or other mere worms of mortals spend watching TV or whatever. He's always got something going on, between the exercising and crying and trips to Hong Kong and getting a full back piece and smashing mirrors and his scrapbook bible and worshiping Blake drawings and whatever. He gets a lot done.

No kidding. These serial killers always have full schedules. They must have great time management skills.

[Captanne]

I have no problem with "that guy is seriously weird" feeling at the cafeteria (I would hope serial killers would give off strange vibes to the ordinary schmo such as I) -- but the whole "travelling to Hong Kong" and the lair is a bit over the top -- agreed.

 

Then again, come on, so is the entire show.

 

Boat ride from the Chesapeake Bay to Italy, anyone?

 

*Btw, that back tattoo would cost a whole lot of money and take a long time, like, several hours which would probably mean a lot of different sittings.  Even if old Francis didn't mind the pain, the tattoo artist would get tired.

[Crossbow]

Isn't the deal with Dolarhyde, that he was told by his mother how ugly he was?  That's kind of why Fiennes and Armitage work for me, because neither of these men are unattractive IMO, so you can see how damaging someone telling a child, "you're ugly" can be.  

 

Sort of - he was born with a cleft palate, so whether his grandmother (not his mother; she abandoned him) said he was ugly or not, everyone could see he had a deformity and a speech impediment. He had his face repaired as an adult but still has a speech problem and thinks of himself as deformed. Thus the hatred of mirrors.

*Btw, that back tattoo would cost a whole lot of money and take a long time, like, several hours which would probably mean a lot of different sittings.  Even if old Francis didn't mind the pain, the tattoo artist would get tired.

 

I don't think they meant to imply it was done all at once. In the book he had it done over several months. But yeah, it would cost a fortune. Maybe it's cheaper in Hong Kong?

Edited July 27, 2015 by Crossbow

[Captanne]

That Hong Kong scene had a Bladerunner feel to it.

[Crossbow]

That Hong Kong scene had a Bladerunner feel to it.

 

Actually I suspect "Bladerunner" was meant to have a Hong Kong feel to it.

[saber5055]

trips to Hong Kong

 

 

There are Chinatowns in most major cities. No overseas trips needed to buy chicken feet or crazy teeth. The tattoo person might have been the same one who did Michael Scoffield's tats. That artist could accomplish a lot in one day!

 

I find it hilarious that a house with an honest to goodness pack of canines is as tidy and hair free as theirs. I don't care how many cleaning services you hire, you and all you own are going to be coated. When Will sneaked out of bed to get all Ponderous Strange right before he went to the victims' house, my husband and I were laughing our asses off at the idea of him not having to kick-shuffle his way through a sea of paws and noses. Sorry, ALL the dogs will want to sleep in the bedroom. That was by far the least believable bit of the episode.

 

 

Dogs that are brushed and bathed on a regular basis do not shed. The short-coated, shedding breeds I show get groomed/brushed and a bath every week before the show. I can't even PULL one hair off of them. The amount of dog hair in a multi-dog house is dependent on how much time the owner wants to put into maintaining the DOGS. Most owners think a yearly groom and bath is enough. Those lazy people are the ones with dog hair wafting everywhere.

 

And not all dogs want to sleep in the bedroom. Some do not want to be on the bed, they prefer the couch or blanket on the floor or their own private crate. Dogs will also get out of the way of their humans if they have been properly trained and socialized and know where their place is.

 

I did not see Winston in the dog pack, so maybe he's gone on to another tv show and, hopefully, not the kennel in the sky during the "off" season.

[Actionmage]

between the exercising and crying and trips to Hong Kong

 

Snookums, did Dolarhyde really go to Hong Kong?  As opposed to the nearest Chinatown to him. I ask because Francis looked like he was not only a refugee from the 50s, but he didn't seem to have just tons of disposable income that he could throw at international airfare.

 

If it was in the books, which I haven't read, it's cool. It just seems too extreme even by Pretend Serial Arts & Crafts Murderer standards.

 

::waves at Saber5055::

Edited July 27, 2015 by Actionmage

[Crossbow]

It's been three years since last episode, and we don't know how old Winston was when Will found him. He could be dead.

Snookums, did Dolarhyde really go to Hong Kong?  As opposed to the nearest Chinatown to him. I ask because Francis looked like he was not only a refugee from the 50s, but he didn't seem to have just tons of disposable income that he could throw at international airfare.

 

If it was in the books, which I haven't read, it's cool. It just seems too extreme even by Pretend Serial Arts & Crafts Murderer standards.

 

::waves at Saber5055::

 

I'll have to read the book again, but yes, he definitely went to Hong Kong, and for quite a while. I don't remember why he was there, if it was specifically to get the tattoo or something else. Maybe I'll read that again tonight. The books are pretty good but not nearly as good as the movies, IMO.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

There are Chinatowns in most major cities. No overseas trips needed to buy chicken feet or crazy teeth. The tattoo person might have been the same one who did Michael Scoffield's tats. That artist could accomplish a lot in one day!

Yes to both of these! Hell, you can buy chicken feet at a lot of regular grocery stores. Crazy teeth might require a special trip though.

Can you imagine the sign that tattoo artist must have hanging in his window? "FULL BACK PIECES IN TWO HOURS - NO QUESTIONS ASKED."

 

Dogs that are brushed and bathed on a regular basis do not shed. The short-coated, shedding breeds I show get groomed/brushed and a bath every week before the show. I can't even PULL one hair off of them. The amount of dog hair in a multi-dog house is dependent on how much time the owner wants to put into maintaining the DOGS. Most owners think a yearly groom and bath is enough. Those lazy people are the ones with dog hair wafting everywhere.

My family had a shih tzu when I was a kid and because we brushed him every day, we didn't have dog hair all over our house. Most of the house had carpeting and we were a no-shoes family, so stray dog hair would have been all over the bottom of our socks if he had been constantly shedding. Brushing really makes a huge difference! Edited July 27, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[TattleTeeny]

Blech.  I'll be glad when the pretentious imagery ends with this series.

 

Yes. MORE MATTER, LESS ART! 

OK, I like the style and all, but it is TOO MUCH now, especially when time is so limited! And I equate it all to highlighting too much copy in a textbook; if everything is made to stand out, then nothing actually does.

 

My question is, the Tooth Fairy has only murdered two families? And in two very distant states? How can they know it's the same person and he murders on the full moon when the real bumbling police detectives in one state wouldn't have even heard about the murders in another state, much less put the two together.

 

There's a national database for this stuff (though I don't think it was too advanced at the time the book was written). They don't know for certain at this point that it's the same killer, of course, but similarities are flagged in their system and reviewed by the Bureau's profilers.

Edited July 27, 2015 by TattleTeeny

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Ha, that's a great comparison. I remember a couple of people I knew in college who would highlight THE ENTIRE TEXTBOOK. We're talking everything but the page numbers and the chapter titles. It was all neon yellow all the time which made no sense to me. How do you know what to read if your entire book is a solid wall of highlighted yellow? I think that there was less of the pointless artiness in this episode. The montages we got of Dolarhyde were plot without dialogue (as opposed to slow motion droplets of water) and I liked the very brief but beautiful food preparation we got in this episode.

[Crossbow]

My question is, the Tooth Fairy has only murdered two families? And in two very distant states? How can they know it's the same person and he murders on the full moon when the real bumbling police detectives in one state wouldn't have even heard about the murders in another state, much less put the two together.

 

I think the murder of an entire family would be national news, wouldn't it? It can't happen THAT often. And in this case, posing the bodies and putting pieces of broken mirror in their eyes would make it pretty hard for them to avoid seeing the connection.

 

According to Fuller, the first murder in the first episode of the first season was an early one of Dolarhyde's. The one Will was using as an example for his class. So he's been doing it a minimum of three years.

 

PS. I'm searching now, and I haven't been able to find any case where an entire family was murdered, except by one of the family members. Has it ever even happened? Someone with better Google-fu than I have might know...

Edited July 27, 2015 by Crossbow

[Nutjob]

I get how the artiness could become tiresome (I don't agree, but it's because I still find it all visually stunning). That said, when the show pulls off something like the scene where Will is walking through the victims' house, and the bodies appear when his flashlight shines on them, then disappear when he moves it, make all the other stuff worth it for me.

 

 

PS. I'm searching now, and I haven't been able to find any case where an entire family was murdered, except by one of the family members. Has it ever even happened? Someone with better Google-fu than I have might know...

The only thing I'm coming up with is this, and it's pretty scary (but a seemingly isolated event): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keddie_murders

[Actionmage]

My question is, the Tooth Fairy has only murdered two families? And in two very distant states? How can they know it's the same person

 

Just this weekend there was a news story about a woman in West Virginia (iirc) who killed a man in self-defense. It turns out he may very well be a serial killer. He had a Serial Killer Klean-up Kit in his car's trunk. There were not only similar cases with dead women in the area, but in three different states over nine years (iirc.) Two states were close in proximity, but Nevada was the third. 

 

I imagine there are things Dolarhyde did, with or without the mirrors, that could constitute a signature.  If Crossbow's correct about the first murder in S1 supposedly being Dolarhyde's, some cop in either of the two family murders went to the criminal database to 1) see if there were other crimes like this and/ or 2) to see if anyone who might have done this before is still in jail/dead/ out of prison.

 

Actually, if it is true that Francis killed that family in S1, then we might see how far he's evolved/devolved.

 

As to knowing it's the same person? They possibly don't but until evidence shows either a copycat or a partner, I'd work the murders as a single person. I think that's how the team worked the Garret Jacob Hobbs cases. But then again, I've watched too much Criminal Minds. *g*

[AstaCharles]

PS. I'm searching now, and I haven't been able to find any case where an entire family was murdered, except by one of the family members. Has it ever even happened? Someone with better Google-fu than I have might know...

I can think of the recent D.C. murders: husband,wife, son, and housekeeper.

[DeadlyEuphoric]

So Richard Armitage... yeah... that was pretty amazing. Both Tom Noonan and Ralph Fiennes did a great job with the character, but it already looks like Armitage might outdo them both.

Regarding Freddie,

Fuller has actually set it up perfectly for her to die the way she does in the book/other films. Dolarhyde will know Will is the one profiling him, and obviously that Freddie's "death" by fire before was faked. I can totally see him giving her that fate for real to punish Will.

 

Finally, the look on Chilton's face when he realized what kind of blood had been in Lecter's dessert when he ate it before was priceless!

 

I wish the best for Freddie, but I will admit, I would be Ok with if her storyline went the way you described. 

 

There are Chinatowns in most major cities. No overseas trips needed to buy chicken feet or crazy teeth. The tattoo person might have been the same one who did Michael Scoffield's tats. That artist could accomplish a lot in one day!

 

I actually thought he was in Chinatown, to be honest. Guess we will know if that was the case or not if they ever trace back the teeth to that shop.

 

It's been three years since last episode, and we don't know how old Winston was when Will found him. He could be dead.

 

That depresses me. I want Winston to be alive and around...

 

 

I think the murder of an entire family would be national news, wouldn't it? It can't happen THAT often. And in this case, posing the bodies and putting pieces of broken mirror in their eyes would make it pretty hard for them to avoid seeing the connection.

 

According to Fuller, the first murder in the first episode of the first season was an early one of Dolarhyde's. The one Will was using as an example for his class. So he's been doing it a minimum of three years.

 

Yeah, murder of an entire family would definitely make news I think, especially given there are 2 children who were killed, and "weird" details like the mirror in the eyes etc. So when it happens a second time in the similar way, I would expect people to start saying "serial killer" even if they aren't cops.

 

Does he mean the first murder of the husband-wife, where the killer has recorded the talk with the alarm company? I think Will have mentioned that the killer was more interested in the woman in that case, but there was no reference to children.

 

I get how the artiness could become tiresome (I don't agree, but it's because I still find it all visually stunning). That said, when the show pulls off something like the scene where Will is walking through the victims' house, and the bodies appear when his flashlight shines on them, then disappear when he moves it, make all the other stuff worth it for me.

 

The only thing I'm coming up with is this, and it's pretty scary (but a seemingly isolated event): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keddie_murders

 

I thought the flashlight revealing the bodies thing was both creepy and very artistic and well done. It sure made an impact.

 

 

Someone online had remarked how when Hannibal is with Chilton, he is simply in his cell room. When with Alana, he imagines being in his office. And when he is about to meet Will, he is in the Norman Chapel and how the more important the person he is to meet becomes, the more special a room he imagines. Was an interesting observation...

 

Also, apparently Fuller tweeted about Hannibal's cell a few times. It was inspired by Stanley Kubrick...

 

Bryan Fuller ‏@BryanFuller Jul 26

#HANNIBAL’s CELL INSPIRED BY STANLEY KUBRICK #BeholdTheRedDragon

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CK0OS4eUEAAP29c.jpg:large

 

 

Bryan Fuller ‏@BryanFuller Jul 26

#HANNIBAL's CELL IS A DUPLICATE OF ALANA'S OFFICE, AS IF THEY CONVERTED A SIMILARLY SIZED ROOM FOR HIS PRISON #BeholdTheRedDragon

 

 

I found this from him regarding Alana interesting too:

 

Bryan Fuller ‏@BryanFuller Jul 26

NOTE ALANA HAS TAKEN ON #HANNIBAL’s PENCHANT FOR FINE SUITS #BeholdTheRedDragon

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CK0QxdXVEAAyEWq.png

 

 

He also retweeted the second tweet from Aaron Abrams on Hugh Dancy's performance. Really nice of them to specifıcally mention his performance.

 

 

Aaron Abrams ‏@MrAaronAbrams Jul 26

Reminder: In these reenactment scenes Hugh is playing Fierce Investigator, Psychotic Killer & Distraught Vulnerable Human Being ALL AT ONCE.

   

Aaron Abrams ‏@MrAaronAbrams Jul 26 Toronto, Ontario

    Will's torment, doggedness & evil are all constant in every moment of them, alive & specific to each crime.

    It's an impossible performance.

 

And some Armitage love too...

 

Aaron Abrams ‏@MrAaronAbrams Jul 26

Amazing quiet performance by @RCArmitage in #Hannibal. Like a Charlie Chaplin movie only instead of pratfalls it's a naked tattooed lunatic.

 

Edited July 27, 2015 by DeadlyEuphoric

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Bryan Fuller ‏@BryanFuller Jul 26

#HANNIBAL’s CELL INSPIRED BY STANLEY KUBRICK #BeholdTheRedDragon

Bryan Fuller ‏@BryanFuller Jul 26

#HANNIBAL's CELL IS A DUPLICATE OF ALANA'S OFFICE, AS IF THEY CONVERTED A SIMILARLY SIZED ROOM FOR HIS PRISON #BeholdTheRedDragon

Bryan Fuller ‏@BryanFuller Jul 26

NOTE ALANA HAS TAKEN ON #HANNIBAL’s PENCHANT FOR FINE SUITS #BeholdTheRedDragon

Bryan Fuller NEEDS TO LAY OFF THE CAPS LOCK. Edited July 27, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[TattleTeeny]

PS. I'm searching now, and I haven't been able to find any case where an entire family was murdered, except by one of the family members. Has it ever even happened? Someone with better Google-fu than I have might know...

 

There was the Clutter family of In Cold Blood fame. Two daughters survived but they didn't live in the home--everyone in the house at the time was murdered.

[Epeolatrix]

PS. I'm searching now, and I haven't been able to find any case where an entire family was murdered, except by one of the family members. Has it ever even happened? Someone with better Google-fu than I have might know...

Some of these are quite alarming, so read at your own risk...

Sakamoto family murders, by assassins from the Aum Shinrikyo religious movement

Conrad family murders, by man who did it for fun (not quite entire family; 10 year old girl survived by playing dead)

Robison family murders, by disgruntled former employee of one of the parents

Setagaya family murders, still unsolved but most likely a stranger

Villisca axe murders, still unsolved but most likely a stranger

 

[my keywords: mass murder of family by stranger, home invasion family murders,

Edited July 28, 2015 by WertherEffekt

[TattleTeeny]

Oh, I forgot about that Robison one. And thank you very much for inspiring a Wikipedia spiral tomorrow while I'm supposed to be working!

[MisterGlass]

Dollarhyde's behavior in the cafeteria was twitchy but was a long way from screaming murderer.  He was intensely reading an art article in a magazine and flexing his hands.  He was also watching to make sure no one was too close when he indulged his inner thoughts.  Isolated, mild personality disorder, maybe - a shy boy, as Hannibal said.

 

I thought I saw Winston, briefly, when we first saw Will, before Jack pulled up.

[queenanne]

Some of these are quite alarming, so read at your own risk...

Sakamoto family murders, by assassins from the Aum Shinrikyo religious movement

Conrad family murders, by man who did it for fun (not quite entire family; 10 year old girl survived by playing dead)

Robison family murders, by disgruntled former employee of one of the parents

Setagaya family murders, still unsolved but most likely a stranger

Villisca axe murders, still unsolved but most likely a stranger

 

[my keywords: mass murder of family by stranger, home invasion family murders,

 

Another one from 2007 (East Coaster here):

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire,_Connecticut,_home_invasion_murders

 

The father lived but I'm calling it for the category anyway, as the stranger-murderers clearly intended to kill him and he wasn't able to save any other family member.

[dargosmydaddy]

 

It's been three years since last episode, and we don't know how old Winston was when Will found him. He could be dead.

Blasphemy!

 

 

I thought I saw Winston, briefly, when we first saw Will, before Jack pulled up.

Yay!

[Snookums]

Snookums, did Dolarhyde really go to Hong Kong?  As opposed to the nearest Chinatown to him. I ask because Francis looked like he was not only a refugee from the 50s, but he didn't seem to have just tons of disposable income that he could throw at international airfare.

 

 

Oh, I don't know for sure what the show's doing, I just went with what the recaps said, which was Hong Kong. But it's equally possible, as noted by many posters, that he went to an east coast city's Chinatown--New York would be much more convenient then an international flight. The only things that make it Hong Kong for me are:

1) the guy getting something very unpleasant done to his mouth/teeth in the shop--you'd think in NY or wherever they'd still have that shit going on in the back room; 2) in the book he did indeed go to Hong Kong for both the teeth and the tat, but of course when the book was written elaborate art tattooing was nowhere near the levels of availability in the United States that it is now. You need a real artist to reproduce Blake on your back. And 3) it's just cooler!

[paramitch]

Oh my goodness -- we finally start the "Red Dragon" arc! Six glorious horrible nightmare-inducing hours. I was really pleased at this introduction to those events and found the episode's structure seamless and really elegant. I loved the way Fuller incorporated Hannibal's mind-palace with the boy soprano straight into those incredibly odd and frightening talks with Chilton and Alana.

 

Want to know something weird? Mads's Hannibal has rarely scared me in the past, as a person, although as a character of course he's terrifying (the leap when he went after Beverly, the kitchen fight with Jack would be two of the moments). But Mads in that cage, looking out at them with his cold, cold eyes, smilingly reminding Alana that he promised to kill her one day? BRRRRRRR.

Watched this while at work so need to rewatch again, but I got the impression Alana and Chilton played a part in Hannibal getting the insanity plea, and so escaping a death sentence? Are they insane?

Hellooo? I'm totally with you on that. Alana telling Hannibal that the death penalty was off the table... I don't know, it scared me and made me sad for her. I know Alana thinks she's open-eyed and tough now, but the reality is that she is simply playing a part. Yet she's more deluded than ever if she thinks that a live, indefinitely caged Hannibal is ever something you can be at peace with. Shoot, I'd have changed my name and moved to Antarctica if he'd ever looked at me and said that.

 

Lunar imagery in Hannibal.

 

Kudos to Sars on one of the best and most insightful Hannibal recaps I've ever read! The lunar imagery in the episode is something I completely missed, and yet it's incredibly beautiful and elegant when it's pointed out as you do in the recap. The "moons" in Hannibal's cage glass and the bloody moon over Dolarhyde (and Will) really spotlighted Dolarhyde's lunar compulsion while also echoing back to the classic meaning of 'lunacy.'

 

I like the contrast between Hannibal's mind palace and Will's mind river from Season 2.  He includes taste and smell in his fantasy, of course.  Hannibal does have a better baseline set of furnishings and resources here than Will did.  

I felt like this was a combination of factors -- Will was one of their own, who had 'betrayed' them, so I think at first they weren't interested in keeping him happy, and his maintaining his innocence also riled people up and was seen as disrupting the process. While Hannibal's guilt appears to have been established beyond a doubt, he would have had fantastic lawyers, large funds to smooth his process and acclimation, and he would have traded information on victims and crimes for additional comforts. So it works for me -- if he's been compliant, polite, and a model prisoner, he would definitely be the star of their prison population in terms of publicity (and funding, and the books by Chilton or Alana).

 

*Francis D.: I don't even know. Mr. Armitage has been around my Fantasy Harem for a bit, but I hope I can still enjoy him in other projects after this. The film-wrapped face was gorgeous and the spookiest sight shown. (Creepiest: the description of the mirror we were not privy to in the episode. ::shudder::) There is so much violence around him, yet there seems to be a palpable fear and terror when he ... transforms? I can't say I'm looking forward to finding out more, but my curiosity is pulling me through.

What I liked about Armitage here is that we see two different Dolarhydes -- we see the public one, who is silent, still, and acutely aware of everything around him. When we saw him sitting in that cafe, he appeared calm and normal, but hyper-alert, almost silently fearful. Then inside his own home (and those of his victims, shudder) he is able to unleash the full-on crazy. Which I find very realistic -- I can believe he's able to be normal in the real world, and that he slithers silently through it and in a sad, scary way, can only see that it is populated by people who are his enemies. Then he goes home and just kind of implodes into the mess of the person we saw here, someone who lives almost totally in his own mind.

 

That scene was a little master of dancing with the devil. Will opens the letter, reads it and the clippings, and instantly understands:

 

5) Will burns the letter and next thing you know, Vroomp Vroomp swishes and he's standing in a loom of blood. This is his design.

It kind of broke my heart to see Will fight here -- even more so than it does in Manhunter for me, because here we have seen, up-close and personal, what this job has cost him.

 

The only thing that didn't quite work for me was Jack finding Will in some remote, semi-rustic colorless chilly-looking cabin. I really wish they'd gone with the book (as Manhunter did) and had Will be in Miami, tanned and strong and living in sunshine and technicolor. It would have been a greater contrast. Here, Will just looked a little pale and cold and the landscape was just too much like so many they've already used for this show. But maybe it was a money thing, so I'm fine with it. It was interesting that Molly here fully urged Will to go -- it's definitely a different direction than I've seen anyone go in before there.

 

I think Hannibal's envelope was in a larger, unmarked envelope, so I'd guess it was delivered to Will by some official go-between. 

This -- exactly. If you look carefully at the scene, Will picks up a piece of mail that looks to be official, opens it, and inside is a white envelope with just his name, hand-lettered in traditional Hanniballigraphy. The letter was simply forwarded on to him.

 

Without a line of dialogue Richard Armitage was fascinating.  With a great ass I might add.  Still I had to chuckle when he was flexing in front of the painting; he can't see himself flexing, sooo ?  It was a great scene for a viewer though. 

I liked that little touch because it's all about this guy losing himself in his own twisted mind-palace, one he's building brick by brick in the image of that painting (which I still think was as genius move by Harris in the original book because that thing is creepy as anything). I really liked the way the episode showed us that this guy is a total fantasist -- he lives in his mind and very little else seems to be real to him at all. He didn't need to see the tattoo once it had become part of him, so now he could just stare at the painting and get all excited that it was 'infusing' him or something. 

 

Oh pendulum crime reconstruction effect, how I missed you! It felt almost nostalgic to see Will back at work doing something competent other than angsting over Hannibal and getting shot, beaten, drugged, etc. That whole scene where Will investigated the house in the dark was horror movie creepy, especially with the ghostly appearance of the bodies wherever Will shined the flashlight, and also beautifully shot.

When there was that palpable pause -- and then the calmness, and the swoosh of the pendulum, I felt such conflicting emotions. It's such a visual and visceral way to show us how Will gets into the minds of these twisted men, and the cinematography and use of the flashlight beam to illuminate all the horrors really terrified me. And then when he smiled and said, "This is my design," I had a total fangasm but again -- it was mixed -- I felt such sadness for Will. Back with the dead, and the killers, in these bloody rooms and these bloody pictures.

 

I have to say, however, that I will give him and all other TV And Other Media Made Up Serial Killers this; they have a helluva hobby. It just fills up all that dead time that you or I or other mere worms of mortals spend watching TV or whatever. He's always got something going on, between the exercising and crying and trips to Hong Kong and getting a full back piece and smashing mirrors and his scrapbook bible and worshiping Blake drawings and whatever. He gets a lot done.

 

This reminds me of one of Roger Ebert's long-ago reviews of some serial killer movie that basically said the next time the FBI was hunting serial killers, they should just go to the nearest Bed Bath and Beyond and find out who bought out all the candles and candelabras!

However, it's even creepier to think about here with Dolarhyde, as basically, it means that the vast majority of his life is focused on this imaginary game and world of his. The 8 or so hours in the 'real world' meanwhile probably have very little meaning for him at all.

Edited July 28, 2015 by paramitch

[Captanne]

There was one line that transcended all of the versions of this franchise's Will Graham and it was beautiful.  (It's been a couple of days and I've had time to let the episode really sink in.)  Will and Molly are in bed making their decision and Will says, "I will be different when I come back."  Or something to that effect.  Because he knows what he's heading into and he also knows Molly -- the Good Woman -- has no idea.

 

The way Dancy delivered that line encompassed the entire character for me.  The sadness, the complexity, the drive to do what's right, the fear, the sense of inexorability, the loss, the empathy.

 

Hats off to Dancy for that moment (along with others, but that one in particular.)

 

*BTW, remember when Alana said in the beginning, "If you send him back, don't hurt him, Jack."  Wasn't that Molly's line in Manhunter?  Not Alan Blooms?

[coppersin]

Light pendulum and puppies! Honestly, if they gave us nothing else this episode, I would've been satisfied. I think I even saw Winston in the pack, and Buster too.

 

This episode was just the setup for what's to come, but it felt more focused and the time flew by for me. Having everyone in the same area and back in each other's orbit has re-energized the show.

 

While I wouldn't have chosen to spend half the season in Italy and felt it meandered a bit too much, the Italian episodes didn't bother me as much as many viewers. For me, the mood was exactly as it should be, because it was a return for Hannibal to a world without Will: floaty, pretentious, without much shock value. I suspect meeting Will gave Hannibal a focus and anchor he didn't have before, probably even with Mischa since she died so young. Once Hannibal and Will met up again in the museum, it was like pressing a "Start" button - the storyline really started moving again. The Muskrat Farm story packed a lot into one episode, and it felt more vivid; and now we're back to chasing a killer and the world is falling into place: Price and Zeller are back (I miss you, Bev!) to keep the investigational bits going; Jack is still being a jerk for the Greater Good; and I get to marvel at Will doing what he does best, while also wanting to give him a hug and worrying about his liver. And after three years of biding his time, Hannibal is getting what he wants.

 

I'm eager for the Will/Hannibal scenes next week. Their bromance/foreplay/mindmeld/whatever is the defining aspect of the show for me; I'd rather see their relationship reconfigured every season than have to make room for Clarice Starling, no matter how awesome Fuller may make her. So I'm curious how easily they'll transition back into a productive dialogue, because Will has grown in the past three years, but I'm not sure Hannibal has. Will has something substantial in his life now, and he was already 1000% done with Hannibal before that, so he has more control than before. Hannibal has his brains and his charm, but is limited by plexiglass. Will has the power in their relationship now, and I hope he knows that.

[Crossbow]

Sheesh. Okay, thanks all for the examples of family murders... I think.

 

 Does he mean the first murder of the husband-wife, where the killer has recorded the talk with the alarm company? I think Will have mentioned that the killer was more interested in the woman in that case, but there was no reference to children.

 

Yes, but Will didn't finish the story so we don't know if there were children.

 

 Bryan Fuller NEEDS TO LAY OFF THE CAPS LOCK.

 

AGREED.

 

Dollarhyde's behavior in the cafeteria was twitchy but was a long way from screaming murderer.  He was intensely reading an art article in a magazine and flexing his hands.  He was also watching to make sure no one was too close when he indulged his inner thoughts.  Isolated, mild personality disorder, maybe - a shy boy, as Hannibal said.

 

But his behavior at home was completely psychotic. No one that disconnected from reality could just turn it on and off like that. In fact if you could turn it on and off, we wouldn't need psychiatrists...

 

Watched this while at work so need to rewatch again, but I got the impression Alana and Chilton played a part in Hannibal getting the insanity plea, and so escaping a death sentence? Are they insane?

 

My take on it was that they wanted him alive because death is too good for him (If someone did that to ME I'd think death was an easy out for them), and they wanted him where they could watch him. I think Alana and Chilton both have the misguided notion that they can keep Hannibal under control better than anyone else.

 

 I'd rather see their relationship reconfigured every season than have to make room for Clarice Starling, no matter how awesome Fuller may make her.

 

Me too! Clarice would make Will superfluous. Particularly as he wasn't even IN SotL. Plus, Hannibal has already delivered some of his best Clarice speeches to Will.

[Nutjob]

I have to wonder if we'll find out exactly why Hannibal got off so lightly. To me, it would make sense for both Chilton and Alana to have helped him, because he has information on both of them that could also send them to prison--Alana being an accomplice to Mason Verger kidnapping and torturing Hannibal, and Chilton's unethical practices with Abel Gideon and others.

[TattleTeeny]

But his behavior at home was completely psychotic. No one that disconnected from reality could just turn it on and off like that. In fact if you could turn it on and off, we wouldn't need psychiatrists...

 

Tons of history's worst examples of humanity* could--and did--indeed turn it on and off like that, often right in the presence of psychiatrists and law enforcement, not to mention spouses, families, friends, coworkers... 

 

Look at it this way: we all do things at home alone that we wouldn't do while others are watching. Luckily, for most of us who are not real-deal literal psychopaths, those things are stuff like walk around naked, have complete conversations with pets, eat a Cheeto off the floor, pee in the shower, get sloppy drunk...

 

* Gacy and Bundy being the obvious examples, with Jeffrey Dahmer even having a bit of skill in that area too. Ed Kemper, Paul Bernardo, John List, Wayne Williams...

Edited July 28, 2015 by TattleTeeny

[saber5055]

I thought the flashlight revealing the bodies thing was both creepy and very artistic and well done. It sure made an impact.

 

 

All of which I completely missed because of my cr*ppy tv, a relic from the invention-of-electricity age. All I saw was Will walking through the house with a flashlight, and wondered why he didn't turn the lights on.

 

I'm just glad this is back to some semblance of S1 so I can watch again. I actually quit this show two weeks ago.

[Tippi Blevins]

When I rewatched this, I thought about Alana's working in the same hospital where Hannibal has been imprisoned. There are times to keep one's enemies closer, and then there are times to move your ass to the International Space Station.

[Nutjob]

When I rewatched this, I thought about Alana's working in the same hospital where Hannibal has been imprisoned. There are times to keep one's enemies closer, and then there are times to move your ass to the International Space Station.

My thought was that it's her way of making sure he never gets out--she feels safer if she's there overseeing his imprisonment than she would if she left it to someone else.

[Crossbow]

Gacy and Bundy being the obvious examples, with Jeffrey Dahmer even having a bit of skill in that area too. Ed Kemper, Paul Bernardo, John List, Wayne Williams...

 

I am not sure about those last two, but Gacy, Bundy, and Dahmer were not psychotic. They were not disconnected from reality. Dolarhyde is. He believes he's turning into the Red Dragon.