S02.E18: Deathstroke

[radishcake]

 

Slade makes his move against Oliver and the repercussions are enormous. While Oliver scrambles to protect his family, a key player in his team starts to question Oliver’s decisions. Meanwhile, Isabel makes her move to take Queen Consolidated away from Oliver.

Original Airdate: April 2, 2014

[BkWurm1]

Speculations as to who the key player who questions Oliver's decisions?  If it was Felicity or Diggle they would bring their concerns to Oliver and work it out I think so that leaves IMO Sara or Roy.    Just how key a player is Roy?

[quarks]

The episode summary irritates me because everyone on Team Arrow has questioned Oliver's decisions before this, for good reason, so what is this "starts"?  That quibble aside, although I don't know that I'd call Roy a key player, I'm hoping that Roy will be asking some hard questions wehn he finds out that Slade kidnapped Thea - something that happened in part because of Oliver's decisions to ask Roy to break up with Thea and more importantly to let Thea walk home alone (again, I ask, what were you THINKING, Oliver?)  Though given that the last episode seemed to be setting up some conflict between Sara and Oliver about how to go after bad guys, and Sara knows Slade's history, she's another good possibility here. Then again, given the unbelievable stupidity of letting Thea walk home alone without supervision, I kinda want the entire team yelling at Oliver about this. I'll keep my fingers crossed. 

[Sakura12]

I think they did show the entire team (minus Roy) questioning Oliver's leadership. Oliver said not to go after Helena and the team told Sara "Go right ahead and kick Helena's ass".

[Morrigan2575]

The terminology could mean anything really.  If you ask me who the key members of the team are, I would say Diggle/Felicity, others might include Sara or say Sara only.   Personally I think it should be either Diggle or Felicity but I can see it being Roy since a large part of this has to be about Roy breaking up with Thea and Thea getting kidnapped.  

[Grammaeryn]

This is actually episode 18.  How can it be changed? I thought this episode was excellent.  Apparently, miracuru turns people into Truth Bombs.  Overall, this is the exact amount of Laurel I want in each episode.  I'm not a comic reader so who is Isabel supposed to be?  Or what should I google? "Deathstroke female partner"? I so wanted Malcolm to show up and save Thea...  Also, didn't Oliver find out about Thea's paternity this year? I assume it's just Slade exaggerating to wreck Oliver's life and to lend the extra drama to Thea's line.

[BkWurm1]

Aired April 2nd, 2014

Deathstroke

The repercussions are massive when Slade makes a move against Oliver; a key player in Oliver's team start question his decisions. 

 

Now this was a good episode!

Edited April 3, 2014 by BkWurm1

[catrox14]

Well that was 100% awesomesauce, until Laurel is told about Ollie's secret.  Ugh. I HATE that development so much. HATE. Stupid.

But I'm just going to pretend that didn't happen and talk about all the rest.  That was like watching a movie. So many twists and turns. I'm pretty sure I said. "Oh Shit" about 10 times.  Not being familiar with the comics, I was totally fooled by the Rochev/Wilson connection.

Poor Oliver is so screwed.  And c'mon there is no way I will ever believe Det Lance doesn't know Ollie is the Vigilante. I just don't.  My head!canon is that he still doing the plausible deniability thing.

Poor Thea :(. I think Oliver was so back on his heels at every turn that it didn't really register with him that Thea was lied to by Slade about how long Ollie knew about Malcolm.  (Also, nice to see your face John Barrowman).  Hopefully, Ollie will get his head back on straight and talk to Thea and tell her he didn't know until recently.  I hope that's just a purposeful thing in the writing and not a continuity fail.  Roy is going to come back, right??

Anyway, aside from the idiotic reveal to Laurel from Slade (also Laurel is just going to open the door without looking out her peephole? After just being attacked and having had her apartment broken into like what 3 times now? Does she really learn nothing? EVER?) that was great.

[quarks]

Pretty classic rip the hero down as far as he can go before allowing him to recover in the last few episodes story, but I liked Oliver's crucible here much more than I liked Laurel's "crucible" earlier in the season.

Bits I liked:

1. Moira's scene with Oliver in the mansion, regretting her parental choices. Brilliantly done. Don't die, Moira.

2. Slade using Thea's kidnapping as a double diversion.

3. The way the reporter, who has covered enough Starling City stories to know better, just threw the video message up on the screen without reviewing it first. 

4. Blood being all cranky since the Evil Plan means he might not get to be mayor. Blood, you're working with a dude who is creating an Evil Army. Be patient! Limos and respect and really wild mayoral things will come unless Slade kills you. Which could happen. Blood! Stop complaining and enjoy life!

5.. Oliver knocking out lots of goons with his bow even if it was for pretty much nothing.  Although maybe the workout helped to keep his abs sculpted, which is pretty important.

7. Oliver and Slade's confrontation in the jail.

8. Oliver admitting that he'd screwed up. A lot. (For future reference, Oliver, it's generally best not to scribble away executive power to a woman you've known for less than one year and had a one night stand with, especially when it's just a scribble on a legal pad. I thought even Isabel was startled at just how bad that idea was.)

9. Isabel telling Oliver what a complete screwup he was at QC. I laughed. 

10. The sense that this was a balanced episode, with every character getting about the right amount of needed screentime.

11. Quentin's whole "So, Oliver, your BOYFRIEND, is all comfy with you fighting with the Arrow?"  "Oliver doesn't know," with me fanwanking that Quentin was trying to give Sara an opportunity to just tell him already.  Especially since the theme of this episode seemed to be "reveal the secret identity."

Things I didn't like:

1. Quentin's whole "So, Oliver, your BOYFRIEND, is all comfy with you fighting with the Arrow?"  "Oliver doesn't know," if I'm NOT fanwanking, because otherwise, Quentin just learned that his daughter is keeping one hell of a secret from the guy she's supposedly sleeping with, which then raises the question of exactly how Sara could possibly keep this a secret from Oliver if Oliver and the Arrow were different people.

2. The police arresting Quentin AFTER Thea identified Slade as the kidnapper, proving that Quentin was correct. I realize that the DA's office is arguably the most incompetent entity in the show (with A.R.G.U.S. running a close second), but seriously?

(I really hope we get a later reveal showing that Malcolm Merlyn has still been influencing the DA's office for evil because otherwise I don't understand how they even manage to open their mail.)

3. Oliver signing away his executive voting privileges with a few scribbles on a legal pad. I know I shouldn't be asking legal or financial questions on this show, but since the CEO is appointed by the board of directors unless it's a completely privately owned company, can he even do that? But apart from that, yes, Oliver, Isabel is being very nice NOW, but a) your sister was just kidnapped and everybody in that room knows it, so it would look really bad if she was mean in front of everybody, b) Isabel just tried to take over your company less than nine months ago, and c) your mother asked you not to trust her and you know Felicity doesn't think highly of her. Grr. 

4. The entire last scene with Laurel and Slade, although I did end up laughing my way through it, so there's that.

Random things:

1. So, we're all just giving up on the whole secret identity thing then? Good to know.

2. Hoping that now that Oliver has hit bottom and admit that a lot of this was his fault - and is finally accepting blame for things he actually should be accepting blame for - we'll start seeing him climb upwards again.

[ScottCP]

Did anyone NOT see what was coming as soon as Ollie made Isabel the temporary CEO?

And at this point, Ollie should just take out an ad.

[BkWurm1]

And c'mon there is no way I will ever believe Det Lance doesn't know Ollie is the Vigilante. I just don't.  My head!canon is that he still doing the plausible deniability thing.

 

Absolutely!

. Quentin's whole "So, Oliver, your BOYFRIEND, is all comfy with you fighting with the Arrow?"  "Oliver doesn't know," with me fanwanking that Quentin was trying to give Sara an opportunity to just tell him already.  Especially since the theme of this episode seemed to be "reveal the secret identity."

 

His own department arrested him for not giving up the Arrow.  They obviously don’t believe him either.

I think as others have suggested that Slade told Laurel about Oliver to get her to betray Oliver to save her father.  The thing is, even if Quentin was playing it like he did know all about Oliver, he still it the type to be too loyal to say anything, so if Laurel tries to broker a deal, it’s just going to make her look that much worse. 

Which is saying a lot after KC acting performance tonight when she found out Oliver’s secret.  I wrote over on TWoP it was like she was watching a laser pointer zip back and forth.  Her acting was so bad it was Joey Tribbiani school of soap opera acting levels of bad.  Try to divide 232 by 13 indeed.

 

If you watch to the end, you will see an uncanny impression of Laurel finding out about Oliver.

This episode had a number of good one liners.  One that I missed the first time around was Moira to Oliver when he just been speaking to Isabel.  "And how is Ms Rochev these days?  Still angry that Dorothy dropped a house on her sister?"  Hee!! 

Another favorite line was Felicity to Oliver.  "Do you remember were you put your business suit or do you keep in a cool glass case too?" 

The very end with Laurel was the worst but the brief "debate" between Moria and Blood was laughably awful.  Transcript.

M:  "Sebastian Blood is not the man you think he is.  He's not going to revive the city with social services, he's going to bankrupt it with unfunded mandates."  

B:  "Mrs. Queen's problem with my proposals is they will be paid for by the 1%"

Both B and M at the same time  B:" It's time that the wealthy people stop avoiding their responsibilities." M: "That won't cover a fraction of what you propose,"

M:  "but it will limit their abilities to hire people." 

Nobody talks like this, nobody but the talking heads on the nutty pundit shows.  And the way ST says "hires people" just made me cringe.  I have to give her credit, she managed to deliver the line like it was the most original and cleverest thing ever said.  I guess the liberal Oliver from the comics has a republican for a mother.  

More later  

Edited April 4, 2014 by Lisin

[Jediknight]

Poor Thea :(. I think Oliver was so back on his heels at every turn that it didn't really register with him that Thea was lied to by Slade about how long Ollie knew about Malcolm.  (Also, nice to see your face John Barrowman).  Hopefully, Ollie will get his head back on straight and talk to Thea and tell her he didn't know until recently.

I think Oliver just didn't want to argue with her by saying "I found out only recently.", that probably would have made her more irate.  Oliver admitting to it without an argument was the way to go.  He also know it didn't matter what he said, the fact he knew and didn't tell her pissed her off.  Oliver knows that Thea trusts him more than Moira, and him knowing without telling her destroyed that trust.

3. Oliver signing away his executive voting privileges with a few scribbles on a legal pad. I know I shouldn't be asking legal or financial questions on this show, but since the CEO is appointed by the board of directors unless it's a completely privately owned company, can he even do that? But apart from that, yes, Oliver, Isabel is being very nice NOW, but a) your sister was just kidnapped and everybody in that room knows it, so it would look really bad if she was mean in front of everybody, b) Isabel just tried to take over your company less than nine months ago, and c) your mother asked you not to trust her and you know Felicity doesn't think highly of her. Grr. 

I love that Oliver just believed her that the meeting couldn't be moved.  I'd say his sister being kidnapped would be grounds to move the meeting.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Jediknight

[MarDelSol]

Loved this episode. Slade devastating Oliver's life just by telling some people the truth.

The ending scene with Laurel was pretty bad. Not sure if it was KC or the writing's fault, but I'm leaning writing. Slade tells her one of the biggest revelations of the show and then just skips away. Laurel has zero dialogue after that and has to silently emote the biggest shock of her life in a couple seconds. Not the best idea...

Edited April 3, 2014 by MarDelSol

[BkWurm1]

The ending scene with Laurel was pretty bad. Not sure if it was KC or the writing's fault, but I'm leaning writing. Slade tells her one of the biggest revelations of the show and then just skips away. Laurel has zero dialogue after that and has to silently emote the biggest shock of her life in a couple seconds. Not the best idea.

 

You are right and yet, the scene called for Slade to drop his bomb and go.  It didn't make sense from a story telling angle to give Laurel any dialogue.  It's just a case IMO of something out of KC's depth to do, which is a pity.  Maybe toss some blame to the director and editor.  If only they'd cut her off right away and not stuck around for all the rapid eye movement. 

[Happy Harpy]

I hope this episode means that Bobby Ewing stepped out of the shower and the show is back on what I think are its right tracks.

I think Oliver just didn't want to argue with her by saying "I found out only recently.", that probably would have made her more irate.  Oliver admitting to it without an argument was the way to go.  He also know it didn't matter what he said, the fact he knew and didn't tell her pissed her off.  Oliver knows that Thea trusts him more than Moira, and him knowing without telling her destroyed that trust.

I notice the "years", and I hope that later on, someone (Moira? Felicity? who know exactly when Oliver learned of it) can set Thea straight on what truly happened and it can be a start point for her to forgive Oliver. Who was wrong to lie to her about Malcolm. I agree with you on the reasons, I understand that she trusted him more and lashed out at him first. But I was still a tad surprised she didn't take Moira as a target at all.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[quarks]

Bkwurm1, I thought the debate was laughingly bad on purpose - to show that the only thing these candidates had done was memorize one liners from pundit talk shows. I don't think we're supposed to think that either Moira or Blood has the city's best interests in mind. So far, the only actual plan we've heard from either candidates is a suggestion that more kids should go swimming, which is all very nice, but doesn't really seem to be of any importance in a city has two vigilantes running around, a completely incompetent DA's office, not to mention all of the earthquake destruction in the last year. I thought it just highlighted how corrupt and incompetent the city government is - look, the mayoral candidates can't even come up with original speeches focused on actual problems within the city.

Another moment I liked and forgot to mention - Diggle noting that Oliver's no kill policy this year is keeping the jails really full, followed by Slade happily recruiting all of the people Oliver decided not to kill. Hee. 

[RapBert]

What a great episode! Lots of interesting twists and revelations, great fights scenes and good acting all around. The ending was hilarious, too. Slade just casually strolls away and leaves Laurel like.. well, whatever that acting was supposed to be (shocked? speechless? constipated?)

[Lokiberry]

 

Her acting was so bad it was Joey Tribbiani school of soap opera acting levels of bad.  Try to divide 232 by 13 indeed.  http://www.youtube.c...e&v=wsVqP4_kAT0

If you watch to the end, you will see an uncanny impression of Laurel finding out about Oliver.

That's hysterical, it's exactly the same thing!

Other than the last scene, this was a great episode. It felt like the first half of the season again. I wonder if this means Berlanti and Kriesberg are back, because there's no way Guggenheim could have managed this on his own.

 

[Danny Franks]

Wow. It's like the writers stopped and said, 'hang on, does anyone remember that we had some non-Lance related storylines going on on our show?' Amazing.

Shame they copped out and made Isabel an evil villain in cahoots with Slade. Talk about taking the least interesting direction for her character. Which they already did with Blood. Great ingenuity there, writers.

Best meta comment of the episode: "Landmines? What kind of island is this?" No kidding, Anatoli. But that was followed by another (rather blunt, with Anatoli actually asking the question) hint at the darkness that was perhaps always within Sara. This is how you build someone up to be a deadly vigilante, show.

Getting annoyed at the continued denial that Quentin must know who the Arrow is. They're making him look like a certifiable moron, they really are. But now he's arrested for being dumb as well? Talk about rubbing it in.

I did like the fact that Oliver's secrets could have explained exactly why Slade was a likely suspect for Thea's kidnapping. That ties in nicely to the 'lies and yet more lies' theme of the Queen family, this season. He could have chosen to come clean about everything, and turn the pressure up on Slade, but he didn't. And Slade knew he wouldn't. Though I do find it ridiculous that Slade is suddenly a well known millionaire, but we're expected to believe that no one in Oliver's circle had heard of him until he turned up at the Queen Mansion.

Best line delivery of the night: Thea saying "whu?" when Slade told her she was free to go. That had me laughing out loud.

Iron Heights continues to be the worst, least secure prison ever. Well... maybe not quite as bad as Arkham Asylum.

It was good to see the core of Team Arrow staying loyal to Oliver, and still believing in him. That actually gave me hope that the writers understand that's where the strength of the show is. Everything falls down, except these three people.

After that final scene, I'm just imagining Slade knocking on doors throughout Starling City and telling people, "I'm not here to harm you.... Oliver Queen is the Arrow." I like the idea of him being that petty, and yet that direct, with his plans to ruin Oliver.

[Tara Ariano]

Hey look, Monty's covering Arrow for us now! Here's his first post!

[calliope1975]

Oliver knows that Thea trusts him more than Moira, and him knowing without telling her destroyed that trust.

 

And having just asked him about their mother keeping a secret and wanting people to be honest with her, I don't think anything Oliver said at that point would have mattered. 

It does seem like maybe Kreisberg and/or Berlanti had more influence on this episode. Such a difference from the eh to mediocre to just okay eps I've been seeing since they left for The Flash.

[paigow]

Slade will probably email Laurel - BTW your sister is a canary.

[Sakura12]

He should've added that as he was walking away. "Also your sister is the masked woman in black" cue her eyes darting back and forth even faster.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Sakura12

[Monty]

I imagine that Laurel will go to Sara with this news, and pour her heart out about how betrayed she feels about Oliver lying to her.

[Sakura12]

She can start of that convo by going "I know Oliver better than anyone. If I keep saying it one day it might be true"

[Carrie Ann]

This was fantastic. My MVP for the episode was Susanna Thompson, who just killed it in every moment (except for the previously-mentioned silly debate, but that's not her fault). Maybe I was in a mood or something, but when she said, "For five years, I was the woman who had lost her son," I just kinda gulped and watched the rest of that scene through watery eyes. Moira looked so small and lost.

She is written and acted so well that she can trick you with that ice queen stuff sometimes. But this distance Oliver has put between them must hurt her so badly after losing him for all that time. She's a mother who loves her children and whose failings have hurt them in ways a stranger never could have, and it's killing her. Props to Stephen Amell too, who showed Oliver experiencing the same realization.

[CabotCove]

It was good to see the core of Team Arrow staying loyal to Oliver, and still believing in him. That actually gave me hope that the writers understand that's where the strength of the show is. Everything falls down, except these three people.

 

I must have missed the part were Sara left him. 

From 2.19, it does look like she is still in the team, if she left she came back really quickly. 

[quarks]

Sara didn't leave him, but this was another episode where they didn't have any scenes alone together and barely touched.  

I find the filming of them as a couple very odd, especially compared to the way other long term/serious couples have been filmed/blocked on this show. They do make a great fighting couple, though, and I like that she had already prepared the Convenient Plot Venom for him before he had any specific plans. Very Sara thing to do.

[Zalyn]

Good episode!  Slade is truly a magnificent bastard. Then again, since Ghost!Shado is his strategist, it's not surprising that he's soundly beating Oliver in DramaChess. 

After that final scene, I'm just imagining Slade knocking on doors throughout Starling City and telling people, "I'm not here to harm you.... Oliver Queen is the Arrow." I like the idea of him being that petty, and yet that direct, with his plans to ruin Oliver.

I love this image, especially when I add Easter bunny ears in my mental picture.

Not that I claim any directorial expertise, but I'd have filmed that last scene with Slade calmly closing the door after delivering the line and walking away, then cutting to Laurel leaning back against the door; more flexibility and less eye tracking.

 

Diggle noting that Oliver's no kill policy this year is keeping the jails really full, followed by Slade happily recruiting all of the people Oliver decided not to kill.

This is a good bit of irony... or just a case of "Good is dumb." Clearly, sparings people's lives is overrated and will allow your nemesis to grow an army.

Moira wins for the house quote, but I'm intrigued by Isabel's "sins of the father" comment.  Did Robert Queen screw over her family at some point? (it was nice to see Summer Glau with fight moves, however brief!)

One more observation: nice parallel of Team Slade and Team Arrow - both have the main guy (Oliver/Slade) with two partners at the end of the ep.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Zalyn

[lovemytvshows]

Finally signed up for a previously.tv account but will continue posting on TWOP until that dreaded end of days comes along.

In other news, I didn't really pick up on Laurel's ghastly reaction to the Slade's reveal of Oliver/Arrow but upon rewatch of that scene, holy hell, can she not move any other part of her face?! Or body?!

[lovemytvshows]

Which is saying a lot after KC acting performance tonight when she found out Oliver’s secret.  I wrote over on TWoP it was like she was watching a laser pointer zip back and forth.  Her acting was so bad it was Joey Tribbiani school of soap opera acting levels of bad.  Try to divide 232 by 13 indeed.  http://www.youtube.c...e&v=wsVqP4_kAT0

If you watch to the end, you will see an uncanny impression of Laurel finding out about Oliver.

Hahaha holy crap! I wonder if KC actually went and Youtubed that video prior to the director yelling, "Action!"

[pootlus]

Oh my pants, that clip of Joey is freaking hilarious.  The expression is exactly the same!

[Danny Franks]

I must have missed the part were Sara left him. 

From 2.19, it does look like she is still in the team, if she left she came back really quickly. 

She didn't leave him, but she wasn't there for the Team Arrow scene at the end, where Oliver expressed his fears and Diggle and Felicity reassured him, and reconfirmed their support for him. Definitely not a coincidence, I would say.

That 'not coincidence' being that the writers are aware of what this show's core is, and even with new members added to Team Arrow, they've not lost sight of that.

[statsgirl]

Or the writers have been looking at their social media because I've noticed a lot of comments at various sites wanting more time spent on the original Team Arrow back again, and I wouldn't be surprised if their twitter reads the same.

It made sense for Sara to be concerned about what was happening to her father though. What made no sense is for them to arrest Quentin instead of going after Slade.  The news program at Laurel's apartment was saying there was a warrant out for Slade, and yet he still walks about town impervious.

[Happy Harpy]

That 'not coincidence' being that the writers are aware of what this show's core is, and even with new members added to Team Arrow, they've not lost sight of that.

To be very honest, I watched the episode just to check, expecting to be disappointed -again. The scenes between Oliver, Diggle and Felicity (and the promo looking awesome in that respect) made sure that I'll watch the next.

It made sense for Sara to be concerned about what was happening to her father though. What made no sense is for them to arrest Quentin instead of going after Slade.  The news program at Laurel's apartment was saying there was a warrant out for Slade, and yet he still walks about town impervious.

Exactly, she had good reasons not to be there so had she be, I would have found her presence forced. I had the feeling that Oliver was finally allowed to interact with the original members of his team again, whereas I thought they were unnaturally phased out in the last batch of episodes. For me, such a scene where Oliver hit rock bottom and decided to fight back had to be with Diggle and Felicity. I don't mind other people joining the team -except if it's Laurel- I think the show will need it as some point so it's better they're introduced early. I'll even like it as long as the "ones who matter" are still showed in what I think is their place, at the core of Team Arrow.

I also loved that Oliver had at least a moment with each of them, separately. Imo, the show always managed a good balance so the trio was really one.

Sara didn't leave him, but this was another episode where they didn't have any scenes alone together and barely touched.  

I find the filming of them as a couple very odd, especially compared to the way other long term/serious couples have been filmed/blocked on this show. They do make a great fighting couple, though, and I like that she had already prepared the Convenient Plot Venom for him before he had any specific plans. Very Sara thing to do.

I don't see romantic or sexual chemistry between them, and since of course it's only in the eye of the beholder, this point is the one that has been making me wonder why the writers even bothered go the couple route for them. Exes getting back together might even be a more tired TV cliché than will-they-won'they and with the bagage between Oliver and Sara, they had imo a golden opportunity to avoid it. From Sara's (almost) first words to Oliver, I expected their relationship to be rekindled and to fail on the island, so that both characters could move on from this remnant of their old selves (and bury what is the most unsavory plot of the show for me). I do think they work very well together as fighters and friends, indeed.

Agbout "the Sara thing to do", I also felt that Sara was the person I met and took a liking to back this fall, and not that all-over-the-place character I didn't recognize much since her return.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[BkWurm1]

I don't see romantic or sexual chemistry between them, and since of course it's only in the eye of the beholder, this point is the one that has been making me wonder why the writers even bothered go the couple route for them. ....I do think they work very well together as fighters and friends, indeed.

 

I feel like Sara and Oliver getting together in the present day is a left over urge to cling to a shred of their past...their waaaay back before the island past when they were selfish and stupid but it wasn't supposed to be life or death every second of every day.  They might even think because they both are broken, the other will be more accepting of their damage but while they will always have this deep connection, I don't think their experiences bonded them together so much pushed each to turn inward for strength. 

That isn't a bad thing but Oliver has in the last year learned to accept the advantage that came with not having to only rely on himself.  There was a time on the island when he had a trusted team and with Diggle and Felicity, he got that very precious thing back.  Sara works with the team and  is respectful and protective of them but I'm not sure she really is in the same mental place with accepting them.  Assassins aren't really team players.  She's behind in the game that way.

So in the meantime, Oliver and Sara cling to something familiar and non-threatening and even a little precious since they both survived so much, but we don't see the signs of a happy uplifting love because they are too burdened to lighten each other's load.  So the continue solemnly forward, grateful for each other, but not really happy. 

 

****

Now on a completely different note, I was thinking more about the parallels we saw in the episode.  In a number of cases it was more than just a parallel, it was a direct line call back. 

Like Quentin and Moira not being able to lose a child again.  Like Roy and Oliver saying he can’t just not act.  First Moira and then Oliver saying you work so hard to protect against harm you don’t think of the harm you cause.  There were more but those are the ones I remember off the top of my head.

Edited April 5, 2014 by BkWurm1

[quarks]

I don't see romantic or sexual chemistry between them, and since of course it's only in the eye of the beholder, this point is the one that has been making me wonder why the writers even bothered go the couple route for them.

 

 

It's not the chemistry or lack thereof that's getting me with the Oliver/Sara hookup. (That's a Laurel issue.) Or the long term possibility of them as a couple - I haven't been able to get behind Laurel/Oliver at all, but earlier this season I was behind having Oliver/Sara get together WAY way down the road - like three or four seasons down the road, after they'd dealt with their various issues.

No, what's getting me is that having put them together, the writers are barely having them interact on screen, let alone act the way this show usually has their long term couples act on screen. This episode was a perfect example.  If it had not been for Quentin asking Sara about how Oliver felt about the Arrow, and Roy's comment to Sara about how of course she supports Oliver because she's sleeping with him - and not calling her Oliver's girlfriend in that comment, either, just focused on the sex - I would not have known that Oliver and Sara are supposedly together.  They did not touch throughout the episode, and in this episode, they didn't even fight together. They never had a single scene alone together - someone else, usually at least two someone elses, was in the scene and in the camera.  At the end, when Oliver was heading to the Arrow Cave to brood, Felicity and Diggle were there to comfort and reassure him, not Sara. I know that Sara was busy and needed elsewhere - although I still find it strange that the vigilante sister, and not the lawyer sister, was the one hanging out at the police station, but moving on - but it was still odd.  The closest thing they had to a relationship moment was Sara anticipating that Oliver would need the Magical Snake Venom, but that was more of a partner/teammate thing than anything romantic.

I'm assuming that they are breaking up next episode - we were told that their relationship would be explored for five episodes, and this episode was episode five. And you know, whatever, but I don't think this was a relationship that was actually explored. In this episode we did have a bit of Sara being practical and correctly noting that Slade was leading Oliver into a trap, and Oliver saying that he had to do something anyway, and that is a personality/character difference between them, but it's not dealing with the real issues: Shado's death, Sara's willingness to kill people, the fact that they are both lying to their families, the fact that they both are vigilantes with full time jobs, where the vigilante stuff so interferes with the full time job that Oliver isn't even doing his job, which strongly suggests in turn that Oliver/Sara have no time for any of the normal romantic/dating stuff, and more things. Given that Sara and Oliver make such strong fighting partners and their friendship already had a lot of rich plot stuff to be mined, I'm left wondering why the writers bothered to go down this route. I have some guesses, but even with those, I'm left wondering why hook up two major iconic characters on your show and then do very little with it?

[Happy Harpy]

 

It's not the chemistry or lack thereof that's getting me with the Oliver/Sara hookup. (That's a Laurel issue.)

 

No, what's getting me is that having put them together, the writers are barely having them interact on screen, let alone act the way this show usually has their long term couples act on screen.

I probably didn't express my idea well (sorry, English isn't my first language). The reason why I wonder isn't their lack of chemistry (since it's a personal view only) but precisely their lack of interaction as a couple (the quoted part). I think I said on TWOP, a while ago, that they're written as a gay couple in the 80's, as if the writers were afraid to show them kissing and touching as couples do.

Not that I want to see that, because the main reason why I will never get behind Sara or Laurel with Oliver is the sisters thing; the premise ruled them out for me.

But imo the writers are aware of the triangle not being well received (I've yet to see anyone calling it a good idea, or even not a terrible one) so I thought that they wouldn't take the risk to unbury it for anything but endgame, or at least some full-fledge couple relationship. Yet, I'm left with the weird feeling that they are sinking both ships, one after the other: first, by retconning Laurel/Oliver and second, by the lukewarm, if not tepid, way the Oliver/Sara interaction is written (all this imho).

 

They might even think because they both are broken, the other will be more accepting of their damage but while they will always have this deep connection, I don't think their experiences bonded them together so much pushed each to turn inward for strength.

I feel the same. It was blatant to me, when she first returned to Starling, that Oliver and Sara weren't in the same place re:people; and even though she has Sin, the backstory makes it imo very different from what happened with Oliver and his team.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[SonofaBiscuit]

No, what's getting me is that having put them together, the writers are barely having them interact on screen, let alone act the way this show usually has their long term couples act on screen.

 

At the end, Felicity said something to Oliver about how he had been sleeping on the cot every night, so I guess he hasn't been going home to Sara every night either.  I don't know if we're supposed to understand that this has been a temporary situation while Thea was kidnapped, and since the writers apparently don't like to think about timing and logistics, I guess I'll just interpret this however I want.  I hope that if Felicity and Oliver do end up together at some point in the future, this is not how the show handles their relationship. 

Now that Felicity is probably out of a job maybe they are going to have her apply at Star Labs.  She needs some sort of day job to pay the bills.  If she is fired, maybe she can just blackmail Isabel to get her job back.

Speaking of Laurel, I can't say that I'm happy that she knows that Oliver is the Arrow.  I'm hoping that juicy tidbit just signed her death certificate.  She's overstayed her welcome for about, oh, eighteen episodes now. 

 

[Monty]

I think Oliver will probably just hire Felicity as his personal assistant. I also think the writers have never quite realized how much money a billionaire has.

Edited April 6, 2014 by Monty

[statsgirl]

Maybe Oliver sleeping on a cot in the Arrow Cave was supposed to show how worried he was about Slade and wanting to be close to his weapons all the time.  Even though Moira kicked him out, it's not like he couldn't afford a hotel room for a few weeks.

It's not the chemistry or lack thereof that's getting me with the Oliver/Sara hookup. (That's a Laurel issue.) Or the long term possibility of them as a couple - I haven't been able to get behind Laurel/Oliver at all, but earlier this season I was behind having Oliver/Sara get together WAY way down the road - like three or four seasons down the road, after they'd dealt with their various issues.

No, what's getting me is that having put them together, the writers are barely having them interact on screen, let alone act the way this show usually has their long term couples act on screen.

One of the reasons that I really liked this episode was because it seemed to be spread out more equitably over most of the cast.  Not only did Moira and Thea get some long overdue screen time, Roy got to call out Oliver, and Diggle and Felicity were back as more than background support for Team Arrow.  Even Quentin had a role. 

I don't know if it's on purpose or because the writers have a hard time getting a grip on Sara's role on the show, or because they're setting up something specific, but since Sara got together with Oliver in Heir to the Demon, it's pretty much been about the two of them with a side of Slade, and the rest of the cast far behind.   This show doesn't do relationships well. I think the best I've seen so far has been Diggle with Lyla and we've barely seen them.  But somehow I didn't find Oliver and Sara being in a relationship to be that interesting in terms of the characters.  It may have been because of the way they interact with each other (since they are pretty much two sides of the same character there not much conflict) or it may have been the storylines but while I thought they were great fighting partners, as an emotional couple it felt flat.  If this was a trial run for a few years down the line, I hope they can find a way to make them as a couple more interesting and to give other characters more time, keeping it from becoming the Oliver And Sara Action Hour.

I'm not expecting Oliver to break up with Sara just yet. The  producers did say the next five episodes would explore their relationship but I took that to mean the penultimate block of five episodes, before the final block of five.  Maybe Oliver and Sara will break up before the end of the season but I can't see anything that happened in this episode foreshadowing it.  Laurel might be willing to spill Oliver's secret to the police to free Quentin (I wonder if Slade/Blood suggested that deal to the DA), but I can't see Sara doing it, especially as she herself is vulnerable to being caught.

Edited April 6, 2014 by statsgirl

[quarks]

Yeah, Sara got a significant amount of screentime and was a major presence on the show between Heir to the Demon and Birds of Brey, to the point where she did seem to be the second lead on the show, taking up the screentime of other characters. This episode seemed a lot more balanced: the only character who seemed shortchanged to me was again Diggle. Sigh. More Diggle, please, show, even if I had multiple complaints about "Suicide Squad."

But what didn't happen was screentime for Oliver and Sara as a couple.

I think the last two episodes have foreshadowed an upcoming Oliver/Sara breakup. They had a fairly significant fight in "Birds of Prey" that emphasized their differences. In this episode, Sara did prepare Magical Snake Venom for him; Quentin noted that Sara and Oliver were going out; and Roy stated that they were sleeping together which meant that Sara would take Oliver's side. Except, in a later scene, she didn't. Instead, Felicity did.  Sara and Oliver didn't speak again for the rest of the episode, though to be fair this was because Sara was needed at the police station so that a Lance daughter could witness Quentin's arrest. 

They could break up for any of a number of reasons at this point, though I agree with you that Sara telling Oliver's secret to free Quentin won't be one of them - for one thing, Sara is the same character that has previously insisted on not telling things, and more importantly, I also agree with you that saying anything could lead to her own arrest. If someone is going to tell the police, it's more likely to be Laurel.

[statsgirl]

If Laurel is any kind of a lawyer, or even if she has any common sense, she will realize that the police have no case against her father and won't give up Oliver to get Quentin out of jail.  But I really don't hold out much hope of that.

But what didn't happen was screentime for Oliver and Sara as a couple.

The Feb 5th interview at TVLine: As for whether Sara and Oliver are a couple now, “That’s actually part of the journey of these next five episodes,” reveals Kreisberg. “Oliver has not had many successful relationships, and part of him and Sara moving forward is [the question of], ‘Is this something that can work given both of our [pasts]?’”

But you're right.  We haven't really seen yet how Oliver and Sara function as a couple as opposed to a crime fighting duo, although the writers could have done something with their differences of opinion in Birds of Prey that would have let us know something more about both characters.  If they break up now, it will remain a big hole in the story.

And because it cannot be said too much, more Diggle please.

[quarks]

Taking my response over to the Sara thread.

[BkWurm1]

Brought over from the Sara thread:

Sara, who of the two actually uses her brain, tells him not to.  [obey Slade's orders to save Thea by going alone to the warehouse]  Felicity, the fan favorite audience surrogate who everyone wants to get with Oliver, enables him and tells him to do what he wants to do.  Oliver promptly blunders into a trap that proves to be an utter waste of time

 

Not addressing the motivation of "fan favorite" or wanting her "to get with Oliver", I'm not so certain it was a waste of Oliver's time. 

Oliver bashes his way through a contingent of men only to find the warehouse empty, calls Felicity who tells him he "did it" and that five minutes ago Thea walked through the doors of the police department.

I know that Slade sent Oliver to the warehouse and that he used that time while Oliver was distracted to gather up some new recruits for his army, but I'm not really so sure that Thea's safe return wasn't because Oliver followed Slade's instructions.  It seems very coincidental that Thea strolls into the precinct probably right around the time that Oliver arrived on the scene of the warehouse where she was kept.  The show never said how Thea got to the police station. 

Slade told Thea she was free to go much earlier (at the very least the time it took for Oliver to leave the police station, go back to  Arrow Cave, then go to Queen Consolidated, deal with Isabel and then go back to the Arrow Cave again) DId Slade really free Thea earlier?  He said she was free to go but then then she'd never learn Oliver's secret. 

Thea hesitated and we know she did learn one of Oliver's secrets.  Are we supposed to assume that Slade just let her go after he dropped his truth bomb and Thea then walked silently to the Police Station without trying to find help anywhere in between? 

Somehow I find it more reasonable to believe that Slade spilled the beans and then arranged for her to be freed only once Oliver took that bait.  Blindfolded? Tossed in the back of a trunk?  I don't know but the alternative is her somehow knowing where she was when she got away from Slade and his peeps and then having no fear that they might come after her which is the only reason why I could imagine her not stopping at the first public place and begging for help. 

Anyway, in the end, we don't know for certain that Oliver didn't do exactly what was needed to free Thea and neither does Oliver or Team Arrow. 

Later they all know that Oliver was purposely misdirected so Slade could catch his bus, but it could be both a misdirect and just the action Slade needed before he was willing to free Thea.

[Sakura12]

We saw Sara and Oliver sleeping on the cot on the Arrow cave together in ep 16. That is where they both are staying.

Another alternative is, after finding out Thea took some time to herself to think about what she just learned and didn't want to face anyone quite yet.

Sara was right Slade was playing with Oliver. Felicity doesn't know slade, sara does. So Felicity just telling to go alone was a really stupid plan. What was he going to do if Slade was there? He would've gotten his ass beat. What they all needed to do was make a plan not just walk in there with nothing. Between the three of them they could've come with something. But Oliver rarely ever asks or listens to his team's opinion. Unless its backing what he wants to do.l So like Roy said they are not so much a team as a follow Oliver blindly, even when they know the plan is stupid.

[BkWurm1]

But Oliver rarely ever asks or listens to his team's opinion. Unless its backing what he wants to do.l So like Roy said they are not so much a team as a follow Oliver blindly, even when they know the plan is stupid.

 

This IS Oliver's team.  They may be partners working together, but in the end, Oliver is going to be the one that decides if he goes or not.. He makes mistakes and no, he doesn't always listen but this isn't a democracy.

Oliver often acts on his gut instinct even if his gut is telling him to do something very risky aka stupid, but I guess this compunction to step up and act boldly is part of what makes him heroic, that he is willing to take the crazy risks to do what he thinks is right.  Again, it IMO makes him heroic, but not perfect.  He's still learning.



Sara was right Slade was playing with Oliver. Felicity doesn't know slade, sara does. So Felicity just telling to go alone was a really stupid plan

 

.Slade was playing with Oliver from start to finish and by that point, Oliver knew Slade was playing him and yet what choice did he have?  His instructions said Thea was dead if anyone but him showed up.  If Slade was there, Oliver might not have been able to beat him and I have to believe that everyone in the Arrow Cave understood that possibility.  It is very possible that Oliver's plan was to trade his life for Thea's.  Heroic ...if shortsighted...but it was Thea and if trading in his dark and battered life save his innocent sister, it was a trade Oliver was willing to make.  More so, it was a trade he was unwilling not to offer.

.

Felicity doesn't know slade, sara does.

 

But Felicity does know Oliver and she understood Oliver had to go,  

Felicity isn't a fool, she knew the risks Oliver was walking into and the trade he basically was making, but she understood why he felt he had to do it and as much as she might have feared for Oliver and feared that she might lose him, in that moment she understood it was more important to send him off with her support and faith than to waste time In undermining arguments.  

[Actionmage]

This is being repeated tonight, August 12, at 8pm EST/7pm CST.

-----

 

I like Roy, but "a key player in his team starts to question Oliver’s decisions"? He is more muscle, yes, but even Diggle brings more than just muscle. After an episode or two of Oliver asking what Roy's heard, Roy isn't used as an information source. He becomes the Mirakuru Kid, someone to contain and depower. So while I understand the CW's need to keep viewers guessing,  that description seems a bit more hyperbolic than strictly needed. As quarks noted. *g*

 

Speaking of, quarks' second post still makes me laugh. # 1, 3, 4, and 11 on the pluses and #1,2, and 4.

 

This is also great (from Danny Franks), even a few months out from the original airing: "After that final scene, I'm just imagining Slade knocking on doors throughout Starling City and telling people, "I'm not here to harm you.... Oliver Queen is the Arrow." I like the idea of him being that petty, and yet that direct, with his plans to ruin Oliver." I kind of see him periodically adding a skip, giddy at his pettiness/ plan coming together.

 

We also got a mantra sighting: Diggle: "You are not alone, man."  Also, Quentin shoulder-touched Moira in parental empathy.

 

I am wondering what the sign for Tosca Cartage is about. It was prominently shown as Oliver went to find Thea, right before the mook fight.

 

I love that Isobel was able to be badass in sensible flats.

 

Felicity (talking about Barry being hit by lightening): "..It won't happen again. Statistically."

 

"I learned it from you." Look who watched 80s PSAs!

 

"How'd you get off the island?"  "I swam." Also?  Slade, there's a Captain Benjamin Sisko who wants to talk to you about linear time.

 

Slade v. Thea needs to happen. I will also take a Slade/Malcolm team-up.

 

Ah, the 'ship I was hoping could be- Quentin/Moira. They had so much history together through their kids, as well as the obvious thawing towards one another as season 2 rolled along. Yes, Quentin would always be in love with Professor Dinah, but Moira wasn't just some ice queen who didn't understand people. She enjoyed a Belly Burger and shopping and trying to help the city.  Who's to say it couldn't have been a fun pair. All the kids' reactions would have been golden. *sigh*

 

Felicity needs to Reed Richards-up something to track vehicles better. This was two episodes in a row that the team did not anticipate a switcheroo of some kind when it came to finding and keeping some sort of surveillance on cars. I love Felicity, and the reason for the slips was PLOT!, but Felicity can't see that Helena isn't driving the car in hername through traffic cam footage? That Diggle can supposedly plant a bug on Slade's ride, but not memorize the plates to give to Felicity to help track? *sigh* PLOT!

Manu Bennett needs something for his on-a-dime switch from sympathetic to Thea's heartache to Psychotic Yeller. Wilson always has a layer of tenseness to him, even relaxing. The let's-scare-Thea-into-Blood's-arms was just creepy.

Despite all the infighting of the Cave folk, I'd like MOAR DIGGLE & ROY moments. Nothing is actually cooler than a in sync Dig and Ollie, but the Diggle/Roy stuff has the potential to be very nice.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Actionmage

[tv echo]

I remember watching this episode the first time and when Slade showed up at Laurel's apartment at the end, I thought he was there to kill her - I thought, wow, they're really going to go there - after threatening Thea's life all episode, he lets her go and then kills Laurel - what a great shocking ending!  Then, of course, they didn't.

[statsgirl]

I remember watching this episode the first time and when Slade showed up at Laurel's apartment at the end, I thought he was there to kill her - I thought, wow, they're really going to go there - after threatening Thea's life all episode, he lets her go and then kills Laurel - what a great shocking ending!  Then, of course, they didn't.

Slade said that he needed Oliver to have one more distraction.  Darn you, Slade, letting Laurel know could have been a distraction -- killing her definitiely would have been.

 

Anatoli to Sara  "When did you get so scary?"  (That never gets old.)

 

Moira on Thea crayoning all over the walls "I couldn't stop her; it was so adorable".

Me:  That's because you have no boundaries with your kids.

My kid:  Yeah, Mom, even you have more boundaries than she does.

 

Felicity: Go, do it, go get Thea and end this"  Oliver looks so surprised that it's Felicity saying this.  He expected it from Diggle, maybe Sara would understand, but not Felicity, she's never had to fight like that. 

Presumably it was a set-up for the ruse in the finale.

.

Thea is ready to believe the guy who kidnapped her  that Malcolm is her father and Oliver has known for years.  She really is way too volatile.

But Oliver is really an idiot about not telling people the truth.  Or does he really believe that he chose Sara, as part of his PTSD?