Figure Skating

[Avaleigh]

So great to see Gracie give a performance like that. I know they won't let her go to the Olympics but I'd love to see her snatch that pewter medal. It's been so long since she was in the top six.

I wish Isabeau was a year older. I thought she was better than Alysa if I'm being honest. 

Really bummed for Amber. She looked stunned and devastated. I gasped out loud when she doubled the loop. 

Karen's skating is so beautiful, we just need her to rotate those jumps.

I was thinking about what strategy would be best for the US regarding the team event and it's a tough call. There are some people that I'd like to see on the team more for sentimental reasons than them necessarily being able to post the highest possible score. Like will Jason be allowed to go over Vincent? That would be my preference but I could see them going with Vincent. I'd like Mariah and Karen to both be on the team but I doubt they'd leave Alysa off so who do they go with? Pairs is the only easy call here in terms of only choosing one team to skate both portions. 

[annzeepark914]

Well...I'm no judge but I would've had Isabeau in 3rd, and Alyssa in 4th. Johnny was going nuts over Isabeau's Swan Lake program (of course all her coaches + her choreographer are Russian). But I agree--it was athletic & artistic, just what this sport was created to be many years ago  There were a number of skaters tonight who could've been skating to the Alphabet Song. Lots of flailing arms too.  So, for me, 🤞🙏🍀 that Mariah is on top of the podium tomorrow. And I won't mind hearing Hallelujah again as that's such a beautiful LP.

[absnow54]

8 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

Like will Jason be allowed to go over Vincent?

I had forgotten Jason was a part of the Sochi Team, so they may give the slot to Vincent. 

[Crs97]

Mariah, Gracie, and Isabeau were the highlights!  I guess Karen’s artistry is lost on me; I wasn’t moved by her performance.  Nor Alysa’s actually.

I was at National’s when Tara crashed during the short program and was propped up to make the team so hearing her speak about Amber so dispassionately made me roll my eyes.

[CeeBeeGee]

14 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

Mariah, Gracie, and Isabeau were the highlights!  I guess Karen’s artistry is lost on me; I wasn’t moved by her performance.  Nor Alysa’s actually.

I was at National’s when Tara crashed during the short program and was propped up to make the team so hearing her speak about Amber so dispassionately made me roll my eyes.

What did she say about Amber? (I was switching back and forth between skating and Women of the Movement so I only caught the end of her program.)

[Avaleigh]

38 minutes ago, annzeepark914 said:

Well...I'm no judge but I would've had Isabeau in 3rd, and Alyssa in 4th. Johnny was going nuts over Isabeau's Swan Lake program (of course all her coaches + her choreographer are Russian). But I agree--it was athletic & artistic, just what this sport was created to be many years ago  There were a number of skaters tonight who could've been skating to the Alphabet Song. Lots of flailing arms too.  So, for me, 🤞🙏🍀 that Mariah is on top of the podium tomorrow. And I won't mind hearing Hallelujah again as that's such a beautiful LP.

I'm definitely rooting for Mariah to win it. I'm...not a fan of Hallelujah. I wish she'd gone with almost anything else especially for an Olympic year. That being said. I really want her to finally claim a national title. I don't think there's a current skater who radiates joy on the ice the way Mariah does. 

Lindsay has the jumps but she has zero personality. A skater doesn't have to be a smiler like Mariah to get me to feel something but for me she's kind of like a Trusova. All jumps and not much else to make the program memorable. 

Isabeau gives me hope. I've been worried about the future of American (and Canadian) ladies skating but Isabeau and Maddie are bright spots I look forward to seeing more of.

My dark horse favorite Hannah Harrell seems to have crashed and burned (again). She's super talented so it's really disappointing that she hasn't been able to deliver when it counts.

Starr should just be a show skater. (Not that there are many shows to participate in anymore.)

[redpencil]

Well, that was a great ladies SP (I hope that doesn't mean a sloppy FS). I thoroughly enjoyed it, and loved seeming some fresh faces.

With Bradie injured and Amber having a disastrous SP, to me the Olympic team will clearly be Mariah, Karen, and Alysa, regardless of where they finish (barring someone having a total meltdown, which seems unlikely).

Edited January 7, 2022 by redpencil

[absnow54]

5 hours ago, redpencil said:

With Bradie injured and Amber having a disastrous SP, to me the Olympic team will clearly be Mariah, Karen, and Alysa, regardless of where they finish (barring someone having a total meltdown, which seems unlikely).

Yeah, I feel like the more controversial picks will be with the alternates, which in unpredictable covid times, may actually be needed. 

[Crs97]

8 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

What did she say about Amber?

I can’t remember details, but it was just dispassionate.  She mentioned all the pressure for Nationals and said it was very disappointing for Amber.  Johnny agreed and added, “we’ve all been there.”  Tara kinda responded.  She just felt very separate from the moment when she could have been empathetic.  I found myself saying to the tv, “You know exactly how she feels, Tara.  I watched you live.”  It was a missed opportunity for her to connect IMO.

[HartofDixie]

11 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

So great to see Gracie give a performance like that. I know they won't let her go to the Olympics but I'd love to see her snatch that pewter medal. It's been so long since she was in the top six.

I wish Isabeau was a year older. I thought she was better than Alysa if I'm being honest. 

Really bummed for Amber. She looked stunned and devastated. I gasped out loud when she doubled the loop. 

Karen's skating is so beautiful, we just need her to rotate those jumps.

I was thinking about what strategy would be best for the US regarding the team event and it's a tough call. There are some people that I'd like to see on the team more for sentimental reasons than them necessarily being able to post the highest possible score. Like will Jason be allowed to go over Vincent? That would be my preference but I could see them going with Vincent. I'd like Mariah and Karen to both be on the team but I doubt they'd leave Alysa off so who do they go with? Pairs is the only easy call here in terms of only choosing one team to skate both portions. 

I want them to split the dance so H/D C/B get medals.

[Jillibean]

12 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I was thinking about what strategy would be best for the US regarding the team event and it's a tough call. There are some people that I'd like to see on the team more for sentimental reasons than them necessarily being able to post the highest possible score. Like will Jason be allowed to go over Vincent? That would be my preference but I could see them going with Vincent. I'd like Mariah and Karen to both be on the team but I doubt they'd leave Alysa off so who do they go with? Pairs is the only easy call here in terms of only choosing one team to skate both portions. 

I think that's going to be a really tough call and I don't envy the people who have to make it. I feel like preference has always gone to singles skaters, to get as many of them in as possible and not overwork them, and I do think that's unfair to the ice dance teams specifically. It made sense when your team was Davis and White and no one else was close, but while H/D had terrible attitudes about it last Olympics, I understand their frustration. This year you have H/D and C/B who are very close to each other, and my guess is they're going to ask H/D to do both slots (assuming they win Nationals which I'm preparing myself for--the politics seem to have swung back to them). I think Nathan will only want to do one program and they'll defer to him. I don't see how you don't put in Vincent, who has so much higher of a scoring potential than Jason, though I guess it will depend on whether he's clean at Nats. With the women, none of them are consistently clean, during the LP especially. I don't think you get a points advantage to splitting it between two of them as opposed to having one skater do both. And frankly none of the women are in medal contention and therefore their rest shouldn't really be a priority. But I think that's what they'll do anyway.  

1 hour ago, HartofDixie said:

I want them to split the dance so H/D C/B get medals.

Me too. I don't think they will, though. 

The sad thing is that if you've managed to get Covid in the last few weeks, it might actually be an advantage. Sure, it disrupts training, but at least you know with some certainty you're not going to get it right before or during the Olympics. Omicron is so contagious that the idea of traveling internationally to China, staying there for however long until your events, and practicing/competing without getting it seems almost impossible, like it should be its own Olympic event. 

[absnow54]

1 hour ago, HartofDixie said:

I want them to split the dance so H/D C/B get medals.

Too bad they don't do the individual competitions first, so they can cherry pick based on who already got medals. Both pairs are so close in points, they really could go with either for the team event. They'll definitely use one of their alternates for Men's and they definitely won't for pairs, so the question is whether they'd only use one of the ladies, since they're skating for 2nd in that portion of the team event. They'll probably want to play Alysa Liu for her 3axel, but that leaves Mariah Bell in the dust, and this is her last chance to medal at the Olympics too. If Mariah Bell can conjure up the same magic in her FS tonight as she did 2 years ago, it'd be hard not to play her for that event. 

[SweetSable]

12 hours ago, absnow54 said:

12 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Like will Jason be allowed to go over Vincent?

I had forgotten Jason was a part of the Sochi Team, so they may give the slot to Vincent. 

The men have 3 slots for the Olympics, correct?  So it will most likely be Nathan, Vincent, and one other skater.  

[absnow54]

6 minutes ago, SweetSable said:

The men have 3 slots for the Olympics, correct?  So it will most likely be Nathan, Vincent, and one other skater.  

Yes, but for the team event, you only get a medal if you compete in the Team Event portion, so only 2 men will be able to compete. Jason was in the Team Event in 2014, and got a bronze medal for it, Nathan got a bronze for the 2018 event. They may play Vincent Zhou for the FS in the Team Event, since he's more likely to make the podium there, than in the individual event (although, he's not completely out of the running there.) But yes, for the Men's Individual competition, the US will have 3 men competing (presumably Nathan, Vincent, and Jason since they're proven to be strong international competitors.)

Edited January 7, 2022 by absnow54

[Lady Whistleup]

Ok I noticed something in the US ladies SP's last night. It seems as if the US coaches still favor an extremely princessy presentation for the ladies. Lots of soft, floaty programs to soft, floaty music. 

I wonder if that style is actually now a bit old-fashioned. For instance, when I watched the Russian Nationals, I noticed how strong the girls were. They were not necessarily princessy. The top contenders Kamila, Sasha, and Liza are strong and muscular. In a good way of course. But they have a sturdy build and style.

[HartofDixie]

Alysa Liu out after testing positive for COVID.

[choclatechip45]

Poor Alysa.

For people who follow figure skating how come Men's Ice Skating and Ice Dancing in the US has done so well compared to Us Ladies Figure Skating?

[CeeBeeGee]

13 minutes ago, HartofDixie said:

Alysa Liu out after testing positive for COVID.

Fuuuuuuuuck

Can she petition to be named to the team? The Games are weeks away.

[Lady Whistleup]

5 minutes ago, choclatechip45 said:

Poor Alysa.

For people who follow figure skating how come Men's Ice Skating and Ice Dancing in the US has done so well compared to Us Ladies Figure Skating?

I think that jumps have to be learned from an early age. The US men stayed with the rest of the world in training quads for their juniors so by the time they were seniors they could incorporate quads. We see how difficult it is for people to learn jumps by the time they are seniors -- look at Jason Brown.

As I said, for US women the coaching has tended to be rather conservative. By the time the quad/3A revolution happened for the ladies the US women were way behind the curve. 

[healthnut]

1 minute ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Can she petition to be named to the team? The Games are weeks away.

Yes she can and will be successful I would imagine. I expect Alexa and Brandon to be named to the team also. 
Meanwhile, Jason Brown is driving from Atlanta to Nashville after his flight was cancelled this morning. He has his skates and his parents are driving from Chicago and trying to track down his costumes. 

[absnow54]

1 minute ago, Lady Whistleup said:

As I said, for US women the coaching has tended to be rather conservative. By the time the quad/3A revolution happened for the ladies the US women were way behind the curve. 

Is it just the US who are behind the curve? Or everyone but Russia? I think the US clung to the Michelle Kwan/Nancy Kerigan era, where artistry could still bring in a win, which didn't help, but the Russians seem head above shoulders against any one else in international competition. But yeah, people on these boards have been foretelling the quad revolution of Eteri's girls for years, and how the US ladies would never be able to catch up to their technical scores until they changed course. I think it'll be a couple more Olympic cycles before we get a woman back on the podium, unless they drastically overhaul the scoring process. 

[Jeddah]

14 minutes ago, healthnut said:

Meanwhile, Jason Brown is driving from Atlanta to Nashville after his flight was cancelled this morning. He has his skates and his parents are driving from Chicago and trying to track down his costumes. 

What a mess! At least he has his skates!

[Harry24]

21 minutes ago, healthnut said:

Meanwhile, Jason Brown is driving from Atlanta to Nashville after his flight was cancelled this morning. He has his skates and his parents are driving from Chicago and trying to track down his costumes. 

He'll probably be safer from C by driving.  I just hope it doesn’t exhaust him.

[Frost]

15 hours ago, annzeepark914 said:

There were a number of skaters tonight who could've been skating to the Alphabet Song. Lots of flailing arms too. 

The flailing arms really struck me too.  No control, just arms flopping around.  I think some ballet foundation training might be helpful!  I know the jumps are the be-all and end-all now but I still want artistry too.

I did a double take when I saw Gracie Gold come up to skate.  I thought, that's a name from the past!  I don't follow skating regularly so I had no idea about her depression and eating disorder.   I am so glad she had a great program.

[Lady Whistleup]

12 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

Is it just the US who are behind the curve? Or everyone but Russia? I think the US clung to the Michelle Kwan/Nancy Kerigan era, where artistry could still bring in a win, which didn't help, but the Russians seem head above shoulders against any one else in international competition. But yeah, people on these boards have been foretelling the quad revolution of Eteri's girls for years, and how the US ladies would never be able to catch up to their technical scores until they changed course. I think it'll be a couple more Olympic cycles before we get a woman back on the podium, unless they drastically overhaul the scoring process. 

I think there are some Japanese women who have more jump content. But then again, there's a long history of Japanese women being good with the triple axel. 

[Avaleigh]

1 hour ago, absnow54 said:

Is it just the US who are behind the curve? Or everyone but Russia? I think the US clung to the Michelle Kwan/Nancy Kerigan era, where artistry could still bring in a win, which didn't help, but the Russians seem head above shoulders against any one else in international competition. But yeah, people on these boards have been foretelling the quad revolution of Eteri's girls for years, and how the US ladies would never be able to catch up to their technical scores until they changed course. I think it'll be a couple more Olympic cycles before we get a woman back on the podium, unless they drastically overhaul the scoring process. 

Russia is leading the pack of course but they aren't the only ones who are part of this change in ladies figure skating. As has been noted, the Japanese women are definitely evolving with the times. The South Korean ladies are as well. Even skaters like Loena Hendrickx are finding other ways to keep up by incorporating Rippon lutzes and that sort of thing. It's the US and the Canadian ladies who went from being top tier to struggling to keep up.

Wrt arm flailing---imo a lot of that is a symptom of the COP rather than the skaters simply having poor artistry. (Although some are indeed lacking in this area.) Programs aren't allowed to breathe or have those simple, elegant moments that were so memorable. Today's pograms are rewarded for crammming in as much as possible. Positions aren't held because the skaters are all about chasing points. Leg kicks and arm flapping aren't going anywhere unless the something changes with the COP.

Almost all skaters have some ballet training. I'd be shocked if there are any elite skaters who haven't. 

[Crs97]

I was really struck by how purposeful each of Isabeau’s arm movements were.  She really set the tone that brought others’ flailing in focus for me.

[specialj67]

1 hour ago, absnow54 said:

Is it just the US who are behind the curve? Or everyone but Russia?

Russian girls and women are in a league of their own at the current time—their top training groups are leading the way right now with quads and triple axels. Japan and South Korea have several women who regularly compete with triple axels, I don’t think any at the senior level who also compete with quads. Pretty much every other country is the next tier down from that—no senior level girl or woman consistently or cleanly competing any triple axels or quads. I’m honestly okay with that for now, because the Russian girls and women coming from team Tutberidze competing all these quads don’t seem to have the greatest longevity at the senior level. I’m interested to see how other training centers approach quad training for girls and women, and to see if they are able to develop more sustainable jumping techniques—or to see if the Tutberidze group changes or improves their jump training to allow their senior level girls and women to compete for longer.

[emmawoodhouse]

Alysa's out of the LP. Tested positive. She is petitioning. 

Edited January 7, 2022 by emmawoodhouse

[HartofDixie]

2 hours ago, choclatechip45 said:

Poor Alysa.

For people who follow figure skating how come Men's Ice Skating and Ice Dancing in the US has done so well compared to Us Ladies Figure Skating?

US Ladies fell behind when the new scoring system came out and there was no push to develop the younger skaters with the new system and we are falling farther behind technically.

[specialj67]

Chock and Bates in 1st after the RD! Hubbell and Donohue in 2nd. Was not expecting that, TBH. Have they tweaked their RD since their last competition? It was really good here—and the lift position punctuated by the “duh” in the vocal track was perfect! I know that Hubbell and Donohue have better skating skills, but Chock and Bates are better performers, in my semi-informed estimation.
 

Green and Parsons in third is also a bit of a surprise. They really nailed it after Hawayek and Baker had a stumble on their opening twizzle. I like both of these teams a lot, and either would be a good 3rd choice for the Olympic team. Hawayek and Baker are sentimental faves just because they’ve been working at this for so long, and their free dance this season is really beautiful.

[annzeepark914]

Oh...hot damn! Chock/Bates nailed it tonight--they broke the scoring record!  Johnny Weir loved Madison's "diva moment" when she writhes around Evan & then stood on his knee. 

[Jillibean]

 

The way C/B performed that program was absolutely mesmerizing. Even if H/D had been on, I would have preferred C/B's program, and I didn't think I was going to feel this way when I originally saw both programs at the start of the season.

Incidentally, if C/B manage to win this (oh please oh please) I do think they'll choose to make the switch in ice dance for the team event rather than leaving H/D off the team a second time after they made their displeasure so clear the first time and have announced their retirement. 

18 minutes ago, specialj67 said:

I know that Hubbell and Donohue have better skating skills, but Chock and Bates are better performers, in my semi-informed estimation.
 

For my money, Madi C is the best American performer in any discipline in terms of expression and acting ability, though her actual skating skills might be relatively weaker. I think Evan is an excellent skater, though.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Jillibean

[Avaleigh]

3 hours ago, specialj67 said:

Russian girls and women are in a league of their own at the current time—their top training groups are leading the way right now with quads and triple axels. Japan and South Korea have several women who regularly compete with triple axels, I don’t think any at the senior level who also compete with quads. Pretty much every other country is the next tier down from that—no senior level girl or woman consistently or cleanly competing any triple axels or quads. I’m honestly okay with that for now, because the Russian girls and women coming from team Tutberidze competing all these quads don’t seem to have the greatest longevity at the senior level. I’m interested to see how other training centers approach quad training for girls and women, and to see if they are able to develop more sustainable jumping techniques—or to see if the Tutberidze group changes or improves their jump training to allow their senior level girls and women to compete for longer.

What I'm wondering about are the Russian women who petition to skate for another country because Russia is so stacked. It's already starting to happen. What will the skating scene be like if the other countries find themselves competing against six or seven Russian ladies instead of three?

ETA: I'm not sure how I feel about the issue of longevity regarding the quads. I feel like people would still have a problem with the Russians if someone like Trusova stayed on the scene with her quads intact for two Olympic cycles.

Also, if a person has won everything there is to win (like Alina Zagitova) isn't it understandable for them to want to move on even if they accomplish everything there is to accomplish in the sport in just two seasons?

1 hour ago, Jillibean said:

The way C/B performed that program was absolutely mesmerizing. Even if H/D had been on, I would have preferred C/B's program, and I didn't think I was going to feel this way when I originally saw both programs at the start of the season.

Incidentally, if C/B manage to win this (oh please oh please) I do think they'll choose to make the switch in ice dance for the team event rather than leaving H/D off the team a second time after they made their displeasure so clear the first time and have announced their retirement. 

Chock and Bates are my favorite. I didn't even want to dare hope that they could win this thing but I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the judges will see that they are indeed the best. I love that they're always trying new things and are about more than just putting out a paint-by-numbers romantic program every season. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Avaleigh

[emmawoodhouse]

Amber Glenn is out. Tested positive. 

[absnow54]

2 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Amber Glenn is out. Tested positive. 

That’s a bummer. I was hoping she’d get a redemption skate after last nights performance. 

[annzeepark914]

Does anyone have the link to results of Nationals?

[choclatechip45]

So they went over that the athletes who are petitioning need to write a short letter saying why they should be chosen. Well if you are Nathan Chen do you just say because you are Nathen Chen.

[absnow54]

1 minute ago, choclatechip45 said:

So they went over that the athletes who are petitioning need to write a short letter saying why they should be chosen. Well if you are Nathan Chen do you just say because you are Nathen Chen.

Nathan Chen just submits an NBC promo for the Olympics featuring him prominently. 

[Jeddah]

39 minutes ago, choclatechip45 said:

So they went over that the athletes who are petitioning need to write a short letter saying why they should be chosen. Well if you are Nathan Chen do you just say because you are Nathen Chen.

Dear Committee,

Are you kidding me with this? 

Sincerely,

Nathan Chen

[Jeddah]

1 hour ago, annzeepark914 said:

Does anyone have the link to results of Nationals?

https://ijs.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2022/29546/index.asp

[gatopretoNYC]

Really happy that Chock & Bates are in first.

I really like Hawayek and Baker, so I hope they can move up to third in the free dance.

[irisheyes]

1 hour ago, choclatechip45 said:

So they went over that the athletes who are petitioning need to write a short letter saying why they should be chosen. Well if you are Nathan Chen do you just say because you are Nathen Chen.

I’d send in a pic of my three WC gold medals. “See you in Beijing. Love, Nathan”

[Avaleigh]

After watching Gracie's long I feel like a kid who just opened a birthday present only to find the box be completely empty inside. :'(

Isabeau was great. Look forward to seeing more of her.

Hannah had a mostly redemptive skate. I hope she sticks around next season. 

I was surprised with Lindsay. She's usually so consistent. 

Fair enough that most of the US ladies aren't doing quads and triple axels. But is it too much to ask for clean triple triples? 

Glad Mariah finally won a national title. Very happy for her to finally make an Olympic team. 

I guess Gabby is our alternate? Good for her.

Does anyone know if the US is sending athletes to 4CC?

[CeeBeeGee]

Poor Gracie. This program was better than some I've seen since her breakdown but I had such high hopes after her short.

SO HAPPY for Mariah! Like some clever person commented two years ago, I too telepathically ordered Mariah not to fuck it up and it worked!

Isabeau is gorgeous on the ice.

Loved Karen's program as well.

[Lady Whistleup]

The US ladies are lovely and all, but I can't help but think that their jump content is just not there. 

[Jeddah]

Gracie’s gonna Gracie. I felt terrible for her.

Based on tonight’s performance, I would have given it to Karen, but I did want Mariah to finally be National Champion. I was happy either way.

I can’t imagine who they would send if they don’t send Alysa.

[Lady Whistleup]

So I just discovered today that Midori Ito has an Instagram.

https://www.instagram.com/midori_ito0813/?hl=en

And she looks as cute and bubbly as she ever was.

[Avaleigh]

18 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

Based on tonight’s performance, I would have given it to Karen, but I did want Mariah to finally be National Champion. I was happy either way.

I'm torn. I was rooting for Mariah so I'm happy with the result but that was a tough call. Both had little difficulties technically and both are gorgeous to watch. I thought the performances were basically equal so it was a little surprising to me just how far ahead Mariah was point wise. Still, I'm not complaining. Happy to call Mariah a national champion. 

As for who should skate what at the Olympics I'm guessing they'll have Mariah skate the short and Alysa the long. It'll be hard to justify leaving the national champion off of the team event.

33 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

The US ladies are lovely and all, but I can't help but think that their jump content is just not there. 

Yeah, I don't know what's going on when our top ladies can't even reliably land a clean triple triple combo. I mean, Kristi was doing a triple lutz triple toe back in 1992. 

[SeanC]

12 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

As for who should skate what at the Olympics I'm guessing they'll have Mariah skate the short and Alysa the long. It'll be hard to justify leaving the national champion off of the team event.

The issue there is that you can only split two disciplines and by prior USFS procedure Nathan and the #1 ice dance team get right of first refusal on that. So there's not likely to be room for two women, they'd have to pick just one of them -- which is a problem in this case because in the short program you'd want a skater with a reliable triple-triple, which Mariah and Karen don't have.

We're through day 1 of Canadian nationals as well, nothing terribly surprising has happened so far.  Madeline Schizas is 13 points ahead after the women's short (the only person to both skate clean and do a triple-triple), she's basically already won.

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by SeanC