Season 17 Live Feed Discussion: Watch People Sleep All Day!

[mooses]

Is it riding on coattails to use someone as a shield? Or just savvy gameplay? Why wouldn't you keep larger targets than yourself in your alliance? Pretty much everybody who plays the game intelligently does that -- uses alliance members until they're expendable.

To me, the coattail riders are the ones kept around as proxy votes for the people actually intent on playing the game. People who don't win comps, couldn't save themselves if their lives depended on it, are pleasant to be around, maybe pick up around the house, and ultimately do as they're told.

I don't think Steve and Liz are master players by any means, but I think they have played reasonably well and each had significant competition success. I really want Vanessa to win, but the others wouldn't be a complete travesty.

Oh no, I don't think it's bad. I was just saying that I don't think it's necessarily true that Steve played a better game than Liz. Both used shields, but Liz was romantically involved with hers in the end which makes others not count it as "gameplay" IMO. Most (outside of this board) seem to think Liz believe winning would be a travesty, but I really don't see the difference between her and Steve.

So if Vanessa votes for Liz over Steve, I don't see it as bitter - she knows that Steve was a side piece of the main alliance that kept him safe, kept on a need to know basis - as opposed to Liz who was fully informed of all information and decisions. I could see how she might view Liz as earning her keep over Steve, thus earning her vote over Steve.

Edited September 22, 2015 by mooses

[ByaNose]

I think the big disadvantage that Liz has is her voice. If she & Julia didn't have the dumb valley girl voice (even though their from Miami) I don't believe people would think she was so dumb. Liz was part of an majority alliance, had a twin twist, was in a showmance & more importantly she won a lot of comps yet is perceived to be dumb. She was in a lot of the planning and strategy in the game versus someone like Victoria who thought she was in one the whole summer. So, in her defense I don't think Liz is that dumb but rather Vanessa is just so much smarter. IMO!!!

[Vicky]

I'd prefer Steve to win over Liz.  

Even though Steve wasn't as much a part of the decision-making process as he thinks, he was actively attempting to play the game; he thought about what might happen and how he should position himself.

My recollection is that Liz did whatever she was told, and started out faking a 'showmance' just to get ahead.  

 

I hope Vanessa gets clued in that Steve won't take her.  

 

My ideal final 2 would be Steve and Vanessa...I don't want Liz in the final three at all.  

It doesn't look like it's going that way no matter who wins round 3 of HOH, so I'm disappointed.  Boooo...

 

Ah well...I thought it was an interesting season.  

Thanks to everyone for sharing it with me via this forum; you all added to my enjoyment and gave me interesting things to think about in the game and beyond the game...:)

[Ceeg]

So last night, Liz told Vanessa that she's kind of paranoid that Vanessa will throw the final HOH since they both think Steve will probably take Vanessa anyway. And Vanessa was like, R U KIDDIN, she said she doesn't trust Steve at all to take her and that she couldn't even blame him if he doesn't take her since she's not planning on taking him either. And that she would never ever throw that final HOH because she'd potentially just be throwing away money, and it would be the dumbest move ever to throw such a crucial comp when she doesn't trust Steve.

 

So, it's not going to be a blindside if Steve wins and takes Liz.

 

I think it's funny that even down to the last minute with only two others in the house, Vanessa is still outplaying Steve. She told Liz that Steve wants to have a group meeting with Liz wherein they both tell Liz that they're taking each other and not her. Vanessa was like, He just needs assurance that I'm taking him but I promise you whatever we say I am 100% taking you. She's always one step ahead of him, and if she loses the last HOH, it'll be a big bummer for me. I want the best player to win this game. And just on a personal level, I want two girls in the F2.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Ceeg

[Katesus7]

I think it's funny that even down to the last minute with only two others in the house, Vanessa is still outplaying Steve. She told Liz that Steve wants to have a group meeting with Liz wherein they both tell Liz that they're taking each other and not her. Vanessa was like, He just needs assurance that I'm taking him but I promise you whatever we say I am 100%™ taking you. She's always one step ahead of him, and if she loses the last HOH, it'll be a big bummer for me. I want the best player to win this game. And just on a personal level, I want two girls in the F2.

 

How is this outplaying him?  What does it really matter at this point? 

[Ceeg]

How is this outplaying him?  What does it really matter at this point? 

I just meant that she's still thinking a step ahead of him. Steve's plan was to solidify his F2 with Vanessa, from her end, by making Vanessa straight up tell Liz that she's taking Steve. Instead, Vanessa told Liz that if they have this ~meeting, it's all BS and lies, and she's really taking Liz. So, from Steve's end, he thinks he's putting Vanessa in a corner and pinning her F2 down. When in reality, Liz already knows about this meeting before it happens and that Vanessa is still taking Liz.

 

Of course, none of it matters from the outside looking in because the moves are already made. But, in Steve's mind, clearly it does matter, or else he would never have decided to have this meeting to begin with.

[TimWil]

I agree that Les probably considers Davonne to be a disappointment. She had a lot of personality and was very eager to play the frigging game but played too hard too quickly.

[Cutty]

So if Vanessa votes for Liz over Steve, I don't see it as bitter - she knows that Steve was a side piece of the main alliance that kept him safe, kept on a need to know basis - as opposed to Liz who was fully informed of all information and decisions. I could see how she might view Liz as earning her keep over Steve, thus earning her vote over Steve.

 

Vanessa and Austin were the main strategists in that alliance. Liz got all her information via Austin and was told what to do by them. She didn't make a single strategic move of her own volition. "Oh okay, James is the next target because Vanessa says so." I look at Liz a bit like Aaryn from the racists season. She won comps in the middle of the season and took out a bunch of players who Amanda wanted out. 

[peachmangosteen]

I think the big disadvantage that Liz has is her voice. If she & Julia didn't have the dumb valley girl voice (even though their from Miami) I don't believe people would think she was so dumb.

 

This is probably very true. The reaction to Liz's voice has made me so self-conscious because I honestly talk just like her. So do my sisters. None of us are dumb.

 

How is this outplaying him?  What does it really matter at this point?

 

Exactly. To me it's just more proof that Vanessa can.not.stop. Like it's over now Vanessa. You can stop. But she won't. She's still playing her guilt-tripping, emotional manipulation games. She can never just relax and stfu for a minute.

 

Obviously, Vanessa has played the most overt strategic game of those left (which imo doesn't necessarily make her 'brilliant' or even better) but imo Steve and Liz are pretty even in terms of gameplay and I believe they both played well. I think the reason why there's a perception that Steve played better than Liz is simply because Steve is better liked than Liz.

 

People are getting my hopes up that Liz could beat Steve today and I'm very mad about it! I had perfectly accepted that the only person left that I like had no chance to win but now I'm kinda anxious about the finale again. Dammit!

[Ceeg]

 Exactly. To me it's just more proof that Vanessa can.not.stop. Like it's over now Vanessa. You can stop. But she won't. She's still playing her guilt-tripping, emotional manipulation games. She can never just relax and stfu for a minute.

Eh. She's literally responding to something Steve is trying to force her into. Her response to Steve wanting to nail her down is to tell Liz first, without Steve knowing. As for relaxing and stfu for a minute, she had 2 game conversations with Liz within an 18 hour period. One lasted about 10 minutes, the other lasted about 2.

 

 I think the reason why there's a perception that Steve played better than Liz is simply because Steve is better liked than Liz.

I think it's also because Steve is to Vanessa as Liz is to Austin, and the showmance aspect of Liz/Austin is what turns people off.

[Eolivet]

So, it's not going to be a blindside if Steve wins and takes Liz.

 

YAS. Pretty much all I care about if Vanessa doesn't win. I don't want to give Steve the pleasure of a blindside.

 

On a personal level, I'm also not wild about someone where the crux of their argument -- coincidentally, not intentionally -- would be "Vote for me -- I got all the strong women out." Especially since if Vanessa didn't tell him "Hey, dummy, you don't nominate Liz and Julia so Austin can win the veto and they can all be safe!" (which is exactly what happened), Steve and Vanessa would now be on jury, getting ready to hand Austin the money thanks to Steve's bonehead move.

 

One final personal request, Steve -- if you end up evicting Vanessa, please don't compare her to Derrick. Like...stop trying to make Derrick As Master Strategist happen. If you must use an analogy, you be Janelle and Vanessa can be Will in All Stars final 4.

[Cutty]

People are getting my hopes up that Liz could beat Steve today and I'm very mad about it! I had perfectly accepted that the only person left that I like had no chance to win but now I'm kinda anxious about the finale again. Dammit!

 

All this talk about can Liz beat Steve will be for naught. Vanessa will win final HOH, take Liz to F2, annoy the piss out of everyone one last time in her jury speech and win. You know the drill.

 

Actually, as much as I don't respect Liz's gameplay I would die with laughter if she beat Vanessa in F2 because Austin actually did get the Summer Campers to vote with him.

[Cutty]

I think it's also because Steve is to Vanessa as Liz is to Austin, and the showmance aspect of Liz/Austin is what turns people off.

 

Shelli was in a showmance with Clay and I respected her gameplay immensely. 

 

I'm probably turned off by Liz's personality, tbh, but I just don't think she's done anything all that meaningful in the game, showmance or not. Maybe I'm just bitter that they let the nominees decide who went home at final fucking 6 and Liz shouldn't even still be in the game.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Cutty

[peachmangosteen]

All this talk about can Liz beat Steve will be for naught. Vanessa will win final HOH, take Liz to F2, annoy the piss out of everyone one last time in her jury speech and win. You know the drill.

100%. I mean ultimately I know that's what's really going to happen because it sucks for me and this show never ends my way.

 

Actually, as much as I don't respect Liz's gameplay I would die with laughter if she beat Vanessa in F2 because Austin actually did get the Summer Campers to vote with him.

This would be AMAZING for me. I would laugh for days.

 

Also, I do think the showmance thing is probably the main reason why the jury will think Steve is a better player. Everyone will believe Liz rode on Austin's coattails, yet they won't think Steve rode on Vanessa's.

Edited September 22, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[kellog010]

It would disappointing for me if Vanessa were to get cut at F3. I am realistic that with the P3 HOH being a crapshoot it is very likely she will lose. In that scenario I would prefer a Liz win. It's mainly personal bias because I don't like the way that Steve has been evicting Vanessa in his head for the past several weeks. I don't like his little boy act, it's wearing thin on me.

 

I know some people don't like Vanessa's personality or the way she's played the game but she's been my favorite player and I'm rooting for her to take it all. If Vanessa lost in F2 that would also be very disappointing for me.

Edited September 22, 2015 by kellog010

[mooses]

All this talk about can Liz beat Steve will be for naught. Vanessa will win final HOH, take Liz to F2, annoy the piss out of everyone one last time in her jury speech and win. You know the drill.

Actually, as much as I don't respect Liz's gameplay I would die with laughter if she beat Vanessa in F2 because Austin actually did get the Summer Campers to vote with him.

I do think all this talk is for naught because even if it was Steve/Liz, Steve will win because he wasn't in a showmance with his benefactor which makes him seem more of an independent player - although to the outside viewer, they are pretty equal.

But then we'd have to hear Austin acting like he's the center of the universe! No one would be laughing then!

[BK1978]

I remember reading that Les Moonves was angry with BB9, so he helped cast BB10 himself, and that had the largest age gap for contestants in years with very few jock types, if I recall correctly. I'd love if the takeover busts caused him to do it again next year, even though I liked a large part of this year's cast.

 

Still rooting for history, but all I really care about is that Vanessa isn't blindsided by Steve because...no. Even better if she caught him practicing his evict Vanessa speech.

 

I have to say season ten was probably one of the better casts they have had.  Especially in recent years.  I did love the fact that they cast older people and when I mean older people not people in their late 30's.  I mean people like Jerry and Renny who were real older players. 

[Nashville]

I just meant that she's still thinking a step ahead of him. Steve's plan was to solidify his F2 with Vanessa, from her end, by making Vanessa straight up tell Liz that she's taking Steve. Instead, Vanessa told Liz that if they have this ~meeting, it's all BS and lies, and she's really taking Liz. So, from Steve's end, he thinks he's putting Vanessa in a corner and pinning her F2 down. When in reality, Liz already knows about this meeting before it happens and that Vanessa is still taking Liz.

 

Of course, none of it matters from the outside looking in because the moves are already made. But, in Steve's mind, clearly it does matter, or else he would never have decided to have this meeting to begin with.

Not necessarily; frankly, I don't think Steve really gave a shit whether or not he and V ever actually HAD The Talk with Liz. What Steve DID give a shit about and truly wanted to see was Vanessa's reaction to the suggestion of such a Talk - and Vanessa didn't disappoint. Vanessa's recalcitrance* at the suggestion made it pretty darn transparent where Steve stood - or, more specifically, DIDN'T stand - on V's priority list.

* How often do you actually get the chance to use 'recalcitrance' in a sentence? Thank you BB! :)

[urusai]

 

she made another veiled bribe reference, saying "people who have been good to me in this game are gonna have a fuckin merry Christmas"

from Hamsterwatch

[Stinamaia]

from Hamsterwatch

Did Vanessa say this to both or just to one?

And if they think about it, aren't they both going to know that Vanessa is saying she will beat whoever takes her?

Edited September 22, 2015 by Stinamaia

[Ceeg]

Vanessa said it to Liz yesterday. It's not a bribe because Liz has zero power.

 

Liz and Steve both know that Vanessa will probably win in the F2. Liz has no power and has to rely on someone taking her to F2. She will gladly take the $50k coming 2nd to Vanessa, since the alternative would be getting 3rd and nothing. Steve knows Vanessa will beat him, hence his daily nighttime "I evict you Vanessa" speech practice the past 2 weeks.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Ceeg

[urusai]

 Liz has a vote though.

 

 Was her offer of a car if one of the twins got voted out considered a bribe?

Edited September 22, 2015 by urusai

[Cutty]

Liz has been delusional and arrogant all season. I'm not sure I buy that she believes she can't beat Vanessa. She's not exactly a deep thinker. It's very likely she believes what Austin said as he was walking out the door, that Vanessa can't win. 

[pennben]

 

people who have been good to me in this game are gonna have a fuckin merry Christmas"

 

I believe Derrick also told Cody he would "take care of him".

Edited September 22, 2015 by pennben

[Ceeg]

Liz has been delusional and arrogant all season. I'm not sure I buy that she believes she can't beat Vanessa. She's not exactly a deep thinker. It's very likely she believes what Austin said as he was walking out the door, that Vanessa can't win. 

The fact that she isn't a deep thinker is what makes me think she's being sincere. I guess she could be playing it up to Vanessa to entice her to take her to F2, but she seemed sincere to me. She cried and said that she thinks and wants Vanessa to win and she deserves to win. And that she has no idea what she'd even say in her speech because she has no big game moves, because she and Steve both rode Vanessa and Austin's coattails.

I'm actually sort of curious about what Liz actually will say to the jury. No matter who she's against, what does she think was her best move?

Edited September 22, 2015 by Ceeg

[Silo]

Not necessarily; frankly, I don't think Steve really gave a shit whether or not he and V ever actually HAD The Talk with Liz. What Steve DID give a shit about and truly wanted to see was Vanessa's reaction to the suggestion of such a Talk - and Vanessa didn't disappoint. Vanessa's recalcitrance* at the suggestion made it pretty darn transparent where Steve stood - or, more specifically, DIDN'T stand - on V's priority list.

* How often do you actually get the chance to use 'recalcitrance' in a sentence? Thank you BB! :)

Yep. Steve wants to blindside Vanessa when he evicts her if he wins HOH. And Vanessa desperately wants to be part of the F2 so she's giving Steve whatever he wants. But he's just having this meeting with Liz to "comfort" Vanessa to make the blindside all the more sweeter.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Silo

[Ceeg]

But he's just having this meeting with Liz to "comfort" Vanessa to make the blindside all the more sweeter.

Are you sure about that? In every conversation I've seen, Steve has been the one pushing this meeting with Liz. He wanted to do it days ago because that's what Derrick and Cody did with Victoria. I think Steve wants the meeting to comfort himself about Vanessa taking him if she wins HOH.

[Guest]

I'm curious what makes them or others think Liz rode Austin's coattails or used him as a shield?  I didn't see Austin do much in the game, above what Liz herself did.  You make a bunch of alliances, win some comps, get lucky with who else wins and who they target-- and here you are (or aren't, in Austin's case).  

[RedheadZombie]

I remember reading on Joker's that Vanessa was telling people she "didn't need the money". Who all did she tell this? Most people in the house are playing for the money, so I wonder if her saying that pissed them off. I admit it would probably irritate me because it's arrogant and condescending. It makes me want to challenge her to donate the money to charity since she "doesn't need it".

There's so many options to pick from Vanessa's condescension. I think my favorite may be telling someone (Austin?) paraphrased: I hate to tell you this, but I also have a high IQ. Most smart people don't feel the need to brag about it. When you're intelligent, most people notice it on their own.

Edited September 22, 2015 by RedheadZombie

[peachmangosteen]

There's so many options to pick from Vanessa's condescension. I think my favorite may be telling someone (Austin?) paraphrased: I hate to tell you this, but I also have a high IQ. Most smart people don't feel the need to brag about it. When you're intelligent, most people notice it on their own.

 

This and her "I'm a game theory expert," were so maddening. I literally do not understand how no one challenged her. Although maybe after Becky sorta did and she went on a crying fit and told everyone Becky tried to murder her and when she basically did the same after James didn't just kowtow to her, maybe they just didn't feel like dealing with her. These people are all much better players than I would be and I honestly give all of them a lot of credit for being able to deal with Vanessa all season long.

 

It makes me want to challenge her to donate the money to charity since she "doesn't need it".

 

I believe I read once here or on another board that Vanessa has said she will be donating the money if she wins to charity. Can anyone confirm this?

[Guest]

That would surprise me.  I heard (probably here) she'd use it to set up her DJ business, and her and her girlfriend in an even more comfortable life.  

[mooses]

That would surprise me.  I heard (probably here) she'd use it to set up her DJ business, and her and her girlfriend in an even more comfortable life.  

 

Yeah, I doubt it. I remember Steve saying he would give his winnings to his parents and she told him not to do that - to just buy them a gift. 

[Wings]

That would surprise me.  I heard (probably here) she'd use it to set up her DJ business, and her and her girlfriend in an even more comfortable life.  

 

That is what Vanessa said when they were answering viewer questions (BBAD).  Seemed a logical answer when you don't want your competition to know you have millions.  She had to come up with something.  

[Cutty]

Yeah, that would be silliness. She's a poker pro, and who knows how many liquid assets she actually has. Good poker players go bust all the time. She's ain't Warren Buffet.

 

It's a bit annoying that she's always hinting that she doesn't need the money but it should have no impact on the game. 

[Guest]

That is what Vanessa said when they were answering viewer questions (BBAD).  Seemed a logical answer when you don't want your competition to know you have millions.  She had to come up with something.  

Ah, I didn't realize it was in-game.  Is the DJ thing even a real goal or hobby?  

 

She still doesn't strike me as charitable.  Entitled and fundamentally insecure, yes.  I do think she's smart enough not to say she's giving her winnings to charity and then not, though.  I feel like she'd flaunt her winnings all over as further proof of her superiority.  

[Nashville]

I'm curious what makes them or others think Liz rode Austin's coattails or used him as a shield? I didn't see Austin do much in the game, above what Liz herself did. You make a bunch of alliances, win some comps, get lucky with who else wins and who they target-- and here you are (or aren't, in Austin's case).

Liz and Julia frequently let Austin be the front man on conversations and negotiations. Not a bad strategy, but it's a double-edged sword; Austin made a great meat-shield, but hiding behind him so frequently for cover also tended to obscure any strategic contributions Juliz may have made, by appearing to originate from Austin himself. Edited September 23, 2015 by Nashville

[Cutty]

Only one more days, guys. Can you believe it? I thought this season would never end.

 

Been super enjoyable talking with y'all this season. 

[ByaNose]

Between the BB Finale & the Survivor Premier I'm going to have a very full Wednesday. What does it say about my life at 50 that I'm beyond excited. LOL!!! Yes, I'm a loser but I'm not hurting anyone, right? It's been a rather good season with a couple of turns and I didn't truly hate too many people. I could have done without Jace (luckily he was first) and, then along season with that gross Austin but he's already forgotten by me and I was glad he didn't make the Final 3. It's been a great season of chatting, analyzing & bitching. What more do you need in life?! LOL!!! Until next summer!!!!

[AndreaK1041]

It is true, the thing I give this credit for above all is evicting Jace first. His personality was so awful in every way. Good job, houseguests!

[brisbydog]

Between the BB Finale & the Survivor Premier I'm going to have a very full Wednesday. What does it say about my life at 50 that I'm beyond excited. LOL!!!

It's even worse in Canada! We have the Amazing Race final as well! Fortunately there is an airing from 7 to 8 so I can mainline all 4 hours. Going to need chocolate and caffeine.

 

(not quite 50...but nearly lol)

[robertorv]

Does the jury not find out about JMac having been evicted until he shows up at the jury roundtable with DR Will (or whoever is doing it this year)? If that is the case, I hope that does not mean that they dont get to see the F4 HOH. I need them to see how lame that HOH win by Steve was with his 601 seconds guess.

I know that they got to see his F6 HOH win, but it does not appear that they showed the jury that JMac blatantly threw it to him. That was not just a dr claim by JMac, you could actually see JMac having completed the puzzle.. minus one obvious piece that he held off on so Steve could catch up and win.

Add those two to his DE HOH win that he tried to throw but won by accident...and Steve has had some seriously ugly HOH wins.

[Wings]

Ah, I didn't realize it was in-game.  Is the DJ thing even a real goal or hobby?  

 

She still doesn't strike me as charitable.  Entitled and fundamentally insecure, yes.  I do think she's smart enough not to say she's giving her winnings to charity and then not, though.  I feel like she'd flaunt her winnings all over as further proof of her superiority.  

 

She may actually do some DJ work, whether it is serious or in the hobby column, don't know.  She had a long conversation with JMac about music and talked extensively about her equipment and what she still wanted to own.  

[Petunia13]

Hey everyone in case I forget or a message later gets lost in the mad shuffle . . . Thanks everyone for making this a fun season. It was better than it had been the past 2 years. I felt there was less redundancy, off topic remarks, and only the most minimal trolling.

I enjoyed a lot of your jokes, opinions, and recaps.

[Katesus7]

Less than 24 hours. After the last few horrible seasons, this one has been a breath of fresh air! I've loved all the discussion on who deserves to beat who and who played what kind of game. I love the fact that all three have their advocates. I personally think Vanessa played the strongest game, but will always think whoever wins this season played the best game. I'm at Steve/Vanessa/Liz in order of preference, but love the fact that I won't puke at any of them winning.

It's just great to see that most people either have rooting interests to win, or rooting interests to lose. Except poor Cutty, who has hated everyone since about week five. Love ya Cutty!

[HighQueenEB]

I want to echo what several others have said already in wrapping up this season's Live Feed Discussion.  I don't watch the feeds but I avidly follow this thread and enjoy the discussions immensely.  This season has been so great compared to the last two and I'll miss checking in a couple times a day.  Can't wait until next June when we start up again but for now...  Thank you, everyone!

[urusai]

Yeah, I doubt it. I remember Steve saying he would give his winnings to his parents and she told him not to do that - to just buy them a gift. 

 

She also told him if he won, she has some "ideas" he should invest in.

[SiobhanJW]

I would also like to thank everyone for enjoyable conversation all season long!! Its always fun to debate and talk about all the different aspects of the game with fans!! I also agree this has been a pretty enjoyable season after the last two. 

 

Now here is hoping (at least for me) that next season is All Stars. I want people stabbing and cutting eachothers throats. You know those All Stars won't hold anything back! 

[mooses]

I've been stuck reading certain other sites of "discussion" that shall not be named for years - I'm so glad I found this place. You're the sane, snarky bunch of Big Brother fans that I thought were just a myth!

Thanks for all the fun and laughs this season. I don't think I'd have followed so closely without having you folks to run back to and argue with!

[Nashville]

When do the feedsters lose the feeds?  And when does this thread lock down?

[SiobhanJW]

When do the feedsters lose the feeds?  And when does this thread lock down?

I read somewhere that the feeds go down at 9:45 A.M. BBT. And they are letting them know so that they can say goodbye. 

 

As to this thread closing. Gots no clue! :)