Race & Ethnicity On TV

[Silver Raven]

In case people in the thread don't know, Jennifer Beals is also bi-racial.  Is her character white, or have they not said?

[In2You]

5 hours ago, Silver Raven said:

In case people in the thread don't know, Jennifer Beals is also bi-racial.  Is her character white, or have they not said?

Jennifer doesn't identify with being black. Most of the time she plays white characters and she skirts around her race in interviews when she can. 

[DearEvette]

4 hours ago, In2You said:

Jennifer doesn't identify with being black. Most of the time she plays white characters and she skirts around her race in interviews when she can. 

I've never paid much attention to Jennifer Beals really but I do know that unlike, say, Vin Diesel she very much acknowledges her black father and her biracial identity.  The one interview I can remember reading is the one where I learned she was biracial.  It was where she talked about advocating strongly for Bette in the L Word to be biracial rather than white and the casting of Pam Grier playing her half sister and Ossie Davis playing her father.

I believe it was the same deal with her chracter  in Lie to Me.  I don't think that character was originally written as biracial but Beals asked for her to be.

[In2You]

3 hours ago, DearEvette said:

I've never paid much attention to Jennifer Beals really but I do know that unlike, say, Vin Diesel she very much acknowledges her black father and her biracial identity.  The one interview I can remember reading is the one where I learned she was biracial.  It was where she talked about advocating strongly for Bette in the L Word to be biracial rather than white and the casting of Pam Grier playing her half sister and Ossie Davis playing her father.

I believe it was the same deal with her chracter  in Lie to Me.  I don't think that character was originally written as biracial but Beals asked for her to be.

She only acknowledged it after it got exposed in Ebony. She always avoided black award shows even when nominated. And in recently interviews she doesn't even like to mention it.  I read an interview from a couple of years ago where they asked her about hair and beauty and she didn't mention being mixed at all when talking about her curly hair.

[topanga]

3 minutes ago, In2You said:

She only acknowledged it after it got exposed in Ebony. She always avoided black award shows even when nominated. And in recently interviews she doesn't even like to mention it.  I read an interview from a couple of years ago where they asked her about hair and beauty and she didn't mention being mixed at all when talking about her curly hair.

Which is unfortunate, both for Beals and for Hollywood as a whole. It's okay if she chooses not to go to the NAACP Image Awards, for example, but it's sad that at age 53, she would still feel the need not to acknowledge--or even to hide--being black. 

I remember when Flashdance (yeah, yeah, I know it's a movie) came out in 1983. Most black people, especially black women, knew she was black or at least biracial when we saw the movie. But most white people had no idea until weeks or months after the movie had already proven itself as a hit. I don't remember what the overall public reaction was to her race, but as a black girl, I remember feeling pride that a black woman was playing a universal character whose story was about her love of dance and her romantic life.   

--Did the studio decide not to publicize the fact that this iconic movie was being carried by a biracial woman, or did Jennifer Beals herself decide she didn't want to be the "black girl" in a movie? As I said, it's sad either way. 

[DearEvette]

Ok I was very curious about this because like I said I've paid very little attention to Jennifer Beals but like so many other actors who have gotten the side eye over the years for denying blackness, I figured I would have heard about that.  But like I said, one of the very few things I had heard was her really wanting Bette to be biracial.  It seems like a weird thing to go from "I'm not black" to asking your network to make your character biracial.  I am no industry insider but it doesn't strike me that a studio is going write a role as explicitly biracial unless they have an actual reason in the script to do so that hinges on the character's race.  Hollywood is not that subtle.  There was no reason to make Bette biracial or her character in Lie to Me biracial other than she wanted them to.

I would imagine that no way in hell would the character in Flashdance would have been written as biracial  and since it was her first movie, Jennifer would have had no clout whatsoever to dictate character.

I looked up the Ebony article and while it hit on some very valid issues with the industry and colorism, many of the things we discuss on this site, it is written in  what I feel is a rather unsophisticated way that really lacks nuance.  For instance they decide that biracial actors who do not identify as black are taking advantage of some "new ethnicity" -- um, ok?  The gist of the article sounded like it wanted Jennifer to explicitly claim blackness rather than to simply claim part black heritage, which imo are two different things.  The article quotes her where she says 'I'm a minority but I'm not black and I'm not white. I am other." when talking about applying to Yale.  the article was written in 1990 but I am not sure when the quote was attributed, but it sounds very much in line with how I've heard other biracial people sounded back in the day when they tried to grapple with explaining their race when they want to claim both before we had a more inclusive vocabulary in how to talk about issues of identity and ethnicity.  My children are biracial and if asked that is what they both say "I'm biracial."  They don't claim or deny blackness but try to be inclusive. And I am glad about that.

And finally, there is actual footage of her attending the NAACP awards when she was nominated for Devil In A Blue Dress.

It may seem like it, but I am not stanning for her in any way, but I do think a person claiming their biracial identity is not the same thing as a person who denies their black (or other non-white) identity. And from what I can see so far she has done the former but not the latter.

[St. Claire]

On 2/21/2017 at 9:10 PM, jhlipton said:

Second, micro-aggregations are still aggregations.  It's right there in the word!

I think micro-aggressions are more worrisome. When any "ism" is blatant, you can easily point to it and it's obvious to any right-thinking person that what is being said or done is wrong. But the subtle racism, the unspoken/underlying actions and words end up basically used to gaslight the impacted parties. "Oh, you're just looking for something to be offended by!" "No, calling that guy on the news 'a thug' has nothing to do with his race! It's because he committed a crime!"

[AimingforYoko]

Finn Jones quits Twitter after conversation about whitewashing.

This is the textbook definition of "more guts than sense". I admire his courage in trying to engage, but this is one of those times where you let the showrunner defend the casting and you keep your mouth shut. When you are the beneficiary of said whitewashing, there's no way to win the argument. And to be fair, it's Marvel Comics that's guilty, more than the show.

[jhlipton]

5 hours ago, St. Claire said:

I think micro-aggressions are more worrisome. When any "ism" is blatant, you can easily point to it and it's obvious to any right-thinking person that what is being said or done is wrong. But the subtle racism, the unspoken/underlying actions and words end up basically used to gaslight the impacted parties. "Oh, you're just looking for something to be offended by!" "No, calling that guy on the news 'a thug' has nothing to do with his race! It's because he committed a crime!"

Someone posted the example of the couple arrested for making racist threats at a child's birthday party.  Unlike the blacks who were killed by police, they showed the couple in tears. That's what systemic racism looks like.  When Conway says that HBCUs were "schools of choice" or when Ben Carson says that slaves were "immigrants", that's what systemic racism sounds like.

Casting a black woman as the witch who is killed in the first half-hour of a show, and not as the dark witch is what systemic racism looks like (picture of who the Witch of the West should have been attached).

But mention any of this to the "I am not a racist" crowd and they'll ask why you have to bring race into everything.

[kiddo82]

4 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

Finn Jones quits Twitter after conversation about whitewashing.

This is the textbook definition of "more guts than sense". I admire his courage in trying to engage, but this is one of those times where you let the showrunner defend the casting and you keep your mouth shut. When you are the beneficiary of said whitewashing, there's no way to win the argument. And to be fair, it's Marvel Comics that's guilty, more than the show.

Serious question.  When it comes to whitewashing in television/movies, how much blame, if any, should the beneficiary receive?  Is it a sliding scale as in someone like Scarlett Johansson can afford (both financially and career wise) to turn down high profile work while someone like Finn Jones probably shouldn't?  Therefore she should be held to a higher moral standard?  Should the blame lie solely with the studio/creators?  Should the actor/actress who does turn a whitewashed role go public with his or her reasons thereby effectively putting the next white person the role is offered to on blast?  I don't know that there's an easy answer but I'm interested in hearing the opinions of others.  

[Oracle42]

Iron Fist isn't so much whitewashing as perpetuating the obnoxious Mighty Whitey trope. The thing is, the character doesn't need to be white - making him Asian-American or biracial would've been just as interesting and could've changed the story in interesting ways

[maraleia]

Jennifer Beals has never denied her biracial identity and I specifically remember her comments about Bette sharing her biracial status because the show was so fucking white cast wise. She realized how awful that would look and fought for more POC to appear on the show as it went on. This is why she pushed for Pam Grier to be cast as her half-sister and Ossie Davis as her dad right from the jump.

[jhlipton]

3 hours ago, kiddo82 said:

Serious question.  When it comes to whitewashing in television/movies, how much blame, if any, should the beneficiary receive?

I think you have it. Someone who has been in the industry for a while should have enough offers that they can turn down a white-washing role (or a white savior, or Magical Negro, or any other stereotype) and should have enough savvy to recognize such a role and make their reason for turning down the role very public.  Someone who is just starting doesn't have the "juice" to complain. 

Writers, directors, and others behind the camera are a totally different story.  Whether it's their first project or their 50th, they need to be called out for systemic racism.

[JustaPerson]

3 hours ago, Oracle42 said:

Iron Fist isn't so much whitewashing as perpetuating the obnoxious Mighty Whitey trope. The thing is, the character doesn't need to be white - making him Asian-American or biracial would've been just as interesting and could've changed the story in interesting ways

this. I think Marvel missed an opportunity by not casting an Asian actor (it would have only required minor tweaks to his backstory -- basically just make him adopted by the Caucasian Rands) but it is canon that Danny is white so it technically isn't whitewashing. It irks me a bit when people call it that.

3 hours ago, kiddo82 said:

Serious question.  When it comes to whitewashing in television/movies, how much blame, if any, should the beneficiary receive?

I've thought a lot about this too. I see people criticizing Finn Jones, but it wasn't him it would have been another white actor. Like you said, I think it depends. In this case, Finn Jones doesn't exactly have the luxury as an actor to be turning a high profile job like this down. Scarlett Johansson OTOH does, so I give her a bit of side eye. I think everyone shares some blame, though I'm less inclined to blame actors -- especially actors like Finn Jones -- less. 

[St. Claire]

I just want to say that I find this board really helpful in trying to change my own complacency as someone of non-color (Irish, Scottish, Norwegian, Polish, Hungarian and German make-up, with looks that scream Irish and Scandinavian; my genealogy research goes back four generations without me finding any Latin/Hispanic, African, or Asian contribution). I've given up on claiming that I'm not a racist, because I'm pretty sure I still am without intending to be. While I can find specific behaviors and beliefs from my parents' or grandparents' generations that I actively move to not repeat, my very nature as a middle-class white woman has given me a life that doesn't even see it until it smacks me in the face sometimes. I don't know if having an eye toward the overwhelming whiteness of most TV shows (and applauding the appearance of well rounded, properly written characters of color) will do a darned thing, but I'm trying.

[vibeology]

8 hours ago, JustaPerson said:

this. I think Marvel missed an opportunity by not casting an Asian actor (it would have only required minor tweaks to his backstory -- basically just make him adopted by the Caucasian Rands) but it is canon that Danny is white so it technically isn't whitewashing. It irks me a bit when people call it that.

I've thought a lot about this too. I see people criticizing Finn Jones, but it wasn't him it would have been another white actor. Like you said, I think it depends. In this case, Finn Jones doesn't exactly have the luxury as an actor to be turning a high profile job like this down. Scarlett Johansson OTOH does, so I give her a bit of side eye. I think everyone shares some blame, though I'm less inclined to blame actors -- especially actors like Finn Jones -- less. 

Agreed. The problem with Iron Fist started when Marvel decided to cast a white actor. At that point, someone was going to get the role. Finn took it and on one hand, I don't blame him. He went from minor role in a big TV hit to a leading role on what should be a popular show based on the other Netflix/Marvel efforts. If he hadn't accepted the role, it would have gone to someone like Sam Clafin or Hunter Parrish or Luke Mitchell. Still, Finn has shown that he doesn't understand why people are disappointed by this fact through his twitter disaster this weekend which is a serious problem. He doesn't see that the "mighty whitey" storyline is as offensive as white-washing in a different way and that you can't undo racism by claiming feminism.

Ultimately, Marvel needs to realize that characters created years ago don't reflect now and that updating characters is going to be a must going forward. Obviously, as long as the money is rolling in at near-record levels, it's hard to make that argument stick but I do think people are starting to get vocal and hopefully will start staying away from Marvel properties that perpetuate the problem.

[Oracle42]

I'm kinda shocked that DC (via the CW) is doing a much better job of adding diversity to their superhero shows. And they do it with very little fanfare. The entire West family and their relationships with Barry are my favorite thing about that show

On 3/7/2017 at 10:00 AM, vibeology said:

Ultimately, Marvel needs to realize that characters created years ago don't reflect now and that updating characters is going to be a must going forward

Considering the number of people who indulged in gross racist public freakouts over:

  - Mary Jane being played by a biracial actress;

 - Michael B. Jordan as Johnny Storm;

 - a black character in Hunger Games being portrayed by a black actress; and

 - (I'm assuming) the entire West family on The Flash

Marvel probably feels justified in playing it safe.

But if they're going to reintroduce characters with problematic back-stories, they should take the opportunity to update and diversify the characters in ways that minimize the racism inherent in the original story.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Oracle42

[Silver Raven]

Have there been any announcements concerning actors of color being cast in the new Star Trek series?

[JustaPerson]

Meh, DC has next to nothing for Asians in their shows other than a few temporary characters. At least in Iron Fist we're getting Colleen Wing and few other asian characters. I do agree that in general the CW shows are a bit better at diversity -- it's a pity those show suck so bad. DC really needs to stop basically entrusting one guy with all the properties.

[vibeology]

1 hour ago, Silver Raven said:

Have there been any announcements concerning actors of color being cast in the new Star Trek series?

Yes. The first few names that came out were Michelle Yeoh as the captain and Sonequa Martin-Green as the Lt. Commander. And taking a look at the cast list on IMDB, Maulik Pancholy is also playing a/the doctor.

[Neurochick]

On March 6, 2017 at 0:32 AM, In2You said:

Jennifer doesn't identify with being black. Most of the time she plays white characters and she skirts around her race in interviews when she can. 

Jennifer Beals has always said that her father, who has been deceased for many years, was black.  I read that in an interview with her, in US magazine in 1983.  She mostly plays bi-racial characters, as in the L Word, Lie to Me and The Chicago Code.  I have seen her play characters whose race isn't defined, as in Motive and Proof.

[Silver Raven]

1 hour ago, vibeology said:

Yes. The first few names that came out were Michelle Yeoh as the captain and Sonequa Martin-Green as the Lt. Commander. And taking a look at the cast list on IMDB, Maulik Pancholy is also playing a/the doctor.

But this morning, they announced that Jason Isaacs would be the captain.

[DearEvette]

2 hours ago, vibeology said:

Yes. The first few names that came out were Michelle Yeoh as the captain and Sonequa Martin-Green as the Lt. Commander. And taking a look at the cast list on IMDB, Maulik Pancholy is also playing a/the doctor.

Sonequa's character is supposed to be the actual lead of the show.  In a departure from other ST tv shows, she, the Lt. Commander is the POV character rather than the captain.  I wonder if that is still technically true since Fuller is no longer attached.  But yeah, I complained about how CBS has fet rather deliberate in creating diversity on the shows that is it putting on their pay channel.  For instance, The Good Fight, the spin off of The Good Wife, is now set in an all black law firm and apparently, from the reviews I've read, Cush Jumbo's  character Lucca has really blossomed as a character since she is now from under the shadow of Juliana Margulies.

 

3 hours ago, JustaPerson said:

Meh, DC has next to nothing for Asians in their shows other than a few temporary characters. At least in Iron Fist we're getting Colleen Wing and few other asian characters. I do agree that in general the CW shows are a bit better at diversity -- it's a pity those show suck so bad. DC really needs to stop basically entrusting one guy with all the properties.

I think if you add the tv + the movies, I will give Marvel a slight leg up on the diversity track.  Yes they had a great (missed) opportunity to make Danny Rand Asian, but at least Colleen Wing is.  But there is also Agents of Shield, Luke Cage & Daredevil.  And if they do a Heroes for Hire thing, then the cast would be multi culti with Misty, Luke, Danny, and Collee.  For the movies at least they have a major character in Storm, even if they didn;t use her that well.   And they race bent Johnny Storm, Nick Fury, Valkyrie (in an upcoming Thor movie), and for the umpteenth remake of Spiderman they've decided to race bend Mary Jane.  And of course the entire Black Panther cast which is a who's who of black excellence is highly anticipated. And there is even some speculation that they'll introduce RiRi Williams (the black teenage female Iron Man) on screen at some point.

DC otoh, seems to do much better on TV than in their movies.  The issue with their movies is that they really just concentrate on Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman and really that's it.  Not a lot of room there since they aren't going to their bench.  The Green Lantern movie they put out was forgettable, Ryan Reynolds just seems blah to me.  Instead of going with Hal Jordan Green Lantern they could have gone with the John Stewart Green Lantern instead.  Now that Flash is gonna appear on the big screen it is nice that they are keeping Iris West black in movie.  And Jason Momoa is Aquaman, so that is a plus. 

Edited March 7, 2017 by DearEvette

[Kel Varnsen]

10 hours ago, vibeology said:

Agreed. The problem with Iron Fist started when Marvel decided to cast a white actor. At that point, someone was going to get the role. Finn took it and on one hand, I don't blame him. He went from minor role in a big TV hit to a leading role on what should be a popular show based on the other Netflix/Marvel efforts. If he hadn't accepted the role, it would have gone to someone like Sam Clafin or Hunter Parrish or Luke Mitchell. Still, Finn has shown that he doesn't understand why people are disappointed by this fact through his twitter disaster this weekend which is a serious problem. He doesn't see that the "mighty whitey" storyline is as offensive as white-washing in a different way and that you can't undo racism by claiming feminism.

Ultimately, Marvel needs to realize that characters created years ago don't reflect now and that updating characters is going to be a must going forward. Obviously, as long as the money is rolling in at near-record levels, it's hard to make that argument stick but I do think people are starting to get vocal and hopefully will start staying away from Marvel properties that perpetuate the problem.

I wonder if when it comes to Iron Fist it is kind of a damned if you do and damned if you don't kind of thing. Leaving him a white guy is obviously causing issuses.  But at the same time, making the martial arts master seems like enough of a stereotype that i think people would take issue with that too. I don't recall anyone saying that The Punisher of Jessica Jones should be played by Asian actors so is it really just the martial arts part of his character that is causing this?

[Oracle42]

It's the rich white guy who ends up in an Asian country and is so much better than alllllll the Asians at an Asian martial art that he becomes the Iron Fist. The racism is built in; it's a white power fantasy.

And the 'fish out of water' story would work just as well with an Asian-American or biracial Asian-American because the point is supposedly the cultural difference, ditto for Danny's relationship with Luke Cage

 

*I do know that Asia is a continent with many different Asian countries but K'un L'un isn't a real place, so 

Edited March 12, 2017 by Oracle42

[Kel Varnsen]

15 minutes ago, Oracle42 said:

It's the rich white guy who ends up in an Asian country and is so much better than alllllll the Asians at an Asian martial art that he becomes the Iron Fist. The racism is built in; it's a white power fantasy.

And the 'fish out of water' story would work just as well with an Asian-American or biracial Asian-American because the point is supposedly the cultural difference, ditto for Danny's relationship with Luke Cage

Fair enough, but do you really not think people might have also taken issue if the first Asian MCU super hero was a guy whose powers made him a martial arts master? The only thing that would be a bigger stereotype would be if the Asian super hero had powers that made him excellent at math.

[Oracle42]

The Iron Fist doesn't make him a martial arts master. He becomes excellent at martial arts through practice, just like every other martial arts practicing hero in the MCU

Edited March 8, 2017 by Oracle42

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, Oracle42 said:

It's the rich white guy who ends up in an Asian country and is so much better than alllllll the Asians at an Asian martial art that he becomes the Iron Fist. The racism is built in; it's a white power fantasy.

Taekwondo was first introduced as a competitive Olympic event in 2000.  The first man to win gold was from Greece and the first woman from Australia.  A list of gold medalists in Judo and Taekwondo from the 2016 games shows athletes from all over the world.

About 2months ago Kisenosato achieved the rank of yokozuna (grand champion) n Sumo wrestling.  It became news because he was the first Japanese born wrestler to achieve that rank in almost 20 years.

[Oracle42]

Yes, and Bruce Leroy was the Last Dragon and the Shogun of Harlem but it doesn't stop Iron Fist from being the embodiment of the Mighty Whitey trope

Edited March 8, 2017 by Oracle42

[jhlipton]

18 hours ago, St. Claire said:

I just want to say that I find this board really helpful in trying to change my own complacency as someone of non-color (Irish, Scottish, Norwegian, Polish, Hungarian and German make-up, with looks that scream Irish and Scandinavian; my genealogy research goes back four generations without me finding any Latin/Hispanic, African, or Asian contribution). I've given up on claiming that I'm not a racist, because I'm pretty sure I still am without intending to be. While I can find specific behaviors and beliefs from my parents' or grandparents' generations that I actively move to not repeat, my very nature as a middle-class white woman has given me a life that doesn't even see it until it smacks me in the face sometimes. I don't know if having an eye toward the overwhelming whiteness of most TV shows (and applauding the appearance of well rounded, properly written characters of color) will do a darned thing, but I'm trying.

This is so well said (my family tree is about 100% white, although Eastern European).  I would love to share this with my FaceBook friends...  Do I have permission to do so?

14 hours ago, JustaPerson said:

I do agree that in general the CW shows are a bit better at diversity -- it's a pity those show suck so bad.

Legends of Tomorrow doesn't have any Asians but it doesn't suck, either, especially this season.

[xaxat]

Netflix Is Making a Medieval Korean Zombie Show

[proserpina65]

17 hours ago, Silver Raven said:

But this morning, they announced that Jason Isaacs would be the captain.

Michelle Yeoh is the captain of another ship to be featured on the show, not the main character's ship.

[Dee]

Craig Zadan, Neil Meron Developing Musical Event Series at Fox About Harlem’s Cotton Club

[vibeology]

To continue the Iron Fist conversation, the press embargo was lifted today and yikes! Seriously, yikes!

One thing that stand out is that most reviewers are pushing back against the mighty whitey trope. Many reviews are very critical of Finn Jones too, which undercuts the "best actor for the job" argument you often see to justify this sort of thing. Marvel has been riding high for a long time (minus Agents of Shield which no one seems to care about anymore) and while the Netflix shows don't carry the same weight as the films, getting consistent critical pushback might finally start to shift the needle.

[Silver Raven]

3 hours ago, Dee said:

Craig Zadan, Neil Meron Developing Musical Event Series at Fox About Harlem’s Cotton Club

Wasn't the majority of the audience in the Cotton Club's heyday white?

[xaxat]

1 hour ago, vibeology said:

To continue the Iron Fist conversation, the press embargo was lifted today and yikes! Seriously, yikes!

And yikes.

Quote

But Colleen’s brilliance also shines a light on the show’s troubling portrayal of Asian-inspired cultures through the lens of its white protagonist. For all the talk going in that the show would deal with the uncomfortable aspects of appropriation rooted in Danny Rand’s origin stories, there is literally a scene in the third episode where Danny. . . explains how much better he is at martial arts than Colleen, in an attempt to show how much she needs his protection, in the middle of the fucking martial arts dojo that show owns. It’s not the only time the show goes out of the way to tell us how much better Danny purportedly is meant to be at many aspects of Asian culture (not just martial arts, but elements of spiritualism and even mastery of language come up across multiple episodes) than the many Asian people he is surrounded by, either, and if it weren’t so mind-bogglingly offensive in its execution it’d almost be hilarious. 

[Kel Varnsen]

21 hours ago, Oracle42 said:

Yes, and Bruce Leroy was the Last Dragon and the Shogun of Harlem but it doesn't stop Iron Fist from being the embodiment of the Mighty Whitey trope

Of course all Asians knowing martial arts is also a pretty massive trope as well, which is why it really seemed like a thing where they couldn't win no matter which way they went.

[Oracle42]

Daredevil practices martial arts and no-one has a problem with it. Many superheroes learn martial arts - it's effective when fighting random bad guys and it looks good in a comic book panel.  

Here's the thing. Danny Rand isn't a super hero because he knows martial arts. He's a super-hero because he possesses the power of the Immortal Iron Fist. It's like a white billionaire ending up in Wakanda, becoming the Black Panther and also being better at Wakandan culture than all of the Wakandan people who live there. 

This article addresses the issues really, really well 

Edited March 9, 2017 by Oracle42

[JustaPerson]

I wonder if Colleen is going to be portrayed as biracial in the show. I know the actress is biracial, but she passes (enough) for full Asian that they could portray her as such if they wanted to. 

In regards to the other issues, I think there's a very thin line here (and yes, it is very damned if you do damned if you don't) and it doesn't seem like the show treads it well. I'll still watch it and see for myself but it is disheartening to hear that the show with more Asian characters/themes (mightey whitey notwithstanding) is going to be the one that doesn't do well critically. 

[Apprentice79]

On ‎3‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 0:08 AM, maraleia said:

Jennifer Beals has never denied her biracial identity and I specifically remember her comments about Bette sharing her biracial status because the show was so fucking white cast wise. She realized how awful that would look and fought for more POC to appear on the show as it went on. This is why she pushed for Pam Grier to be cast as her half-sister and Ossie Davis as her dad right from the jump.

I wish that the show had explored why Bette as a Black/biracial woman only dated White women, had White friends and only interacted with White LGBT people.  She seemed to have trouble connecting with Black people.  Was it because she was rejected by her Black father for being a lesbian and by extension the Black community for homophobia.   I always felt that Ilene Chaken should have explored this angle in Bette, it could have given her more depth. 

[Oracle42]

The only praise that the Iron Fist has received, based on the early reviews, is for Colleen's character - a hefty dose of the criticism seems to be directed at Danny Rand - both the character and his story.  

[NutMeg]

On 3/8/2017 at 0:05 PM, Constantinople said:

Taekwondo was first introduced as a competitive Olympic event in 2000.  The first man to win gold was from Greece and the first woman from Australia.  A list of gold medalists in Judo and Taekwondo from the 2016 games shows athletes from all over the world.

About 2months ago Kisenosato achieved the rank of yokozuna (grand champion) n Sumo wrestling.  It became news because he was the first Japanese born wrestler to achieve that rank in almost 20 years.

Of course. And back in the day, the first time a non Japanese reached ozeki then yokozuna was a major event in Japan and led to a lot of discussions and soul searching. And until Murray showed up there hasn't been a British tennis champion in a looong time (not many French either, if you consider jeu de paume as the ancestor of modern tennis). And many NBA players were not born Americans. Etc., etc.

But there are still tropes and expectations when it comes to movies. For instance, because of kung fu movies, you'd expect Chinese people to be born ready to kung fu (I lived in Hong Kong and tried to find kung fu classes, hard to come by - Hong Kongers are most likely to be into tai chi than kung fu these days). But of course, there has always been exceptions, the guy born in the mountains who takes to sailing like he was born on a sailboat, the girl born in a bookish family, in a country not know for tennis, who's just a natural on the court, etc. And of course Hollywood would be all about the exception, the one beating the odds, Kung Fu Panda rather that Kung Fu Monkey or Kung Fu Tiger. The underdog, etc. Where it gets twisted is that the underdog/unexpected also becomes a trope, and that, together with casting preference, becomes a whole new bag of weirdness. If (imaginary example - I think) Scarlet Johansson is expected to beat the crap out of Jet Li, that's a new disconnect, and not in a good way.  

At least, Crazy Rich Asians (I read the book! and the sequel!) should be an all Asian cast, at least for the mains. Michelle Yeoh and Constance Wu have been cast, I hope the list goes beyond actors currently known in the US. There are some crazily good actors who speak perfect English that Hollywood could discover here!   

[maraleia]

9 hours ago, Apprentice79 said:

I wish that the show had explored why Bette as a Black/biracial woman only dated White women, had White friends and only interacted with White LGBT people.  She seemed to have trouble connecting with Black people.  Was it because she was rejected by her Black father for being a lesbian and by extension the Black community for homophobia.   I always felt that Ilene Chaken should have explored this angle in Bette, it could have given her more depth. 

That was Ilene Fucking Chaiken's fault for the show not having POC other than Bette and Kit. Again, you can thank Jennifer for having her family on the show be bi-racial.

[Apprentice79]

1 minute ago, maraleia said:

That was Ilene Fucking Chaiken's fault for the show not having POC other than Bette and Kit. Again, you can thank Jennifer for having her family on the show be bi-racial.

She ruined the show with her awful writing and I will never forgive her for killing Dana off the show. 

[maraleia]

Just now, Apprentice79 said:

She ruined the show with her awful writing and I will never forgive her for killing Dana off the show. 

When she killed off the two older queer women and had Jamal sleep with Alicia Keys' character on Empire I stopped watching that show. I will never watch anything she does again. Remember, it was only due to backlash that she added more POC to the L Word. I don't know why Chaiken and I. Marlene King (Pretty Little Liars) continue to get work when they are so horrible. I stopped watching PLL when they kept killing the queer women of color and made the first villain a trans woman and then killed her too.

[Apprentice79]

Just now, maraleia said:

When she killed off the two older queer women and had Jamal sleep with Alicia Keys' character on Empire I stopped watching that show. I will never watch anything she does again. Remember, it was only due to backlash that she added more POC to the L Word. I don't know why Chaiken and I. Marlene King (Pretty Little Liars) continue to get work when they are so horrible. I stopped watching PLL when they kept killing the queer women of color and made the first villain a trans woman and then killed her too.

My goodness, I had no idea that she does this to LGBT people of color.   She is a hack. There is no doubt about it.. I  knew that she was bad, but, I never thought it was to that extent. 

[maraleia]

4 minutes ago, Apprentice79 said:

My goodness, I had no idea that she does this to LGBT people of color.   She is a hack. There is no doubt about it.. I  knew that she was bad, but, I never thought it was to that extent. 

Taking my comment to the LGBT thread. Follow me there.

[Apprentice79]

8 minutes ago, maraleia said:

Taking my comment to the LGBT thread. Follow me there.

okay..

[DearEvette]

10 hours ago, Apprentice79 said:

I wish that the show had explored why Bette as a Black/biracial woman only dated White women, had White friends and only interacted with White LGBT people.  She seemed to have trouble connecting with Black people.  Was it because she was rejected by her Black father for being a lesbian and by extension the Black community for homophobia.   I always felt that Ilene Chaken should have explored this angle in Bette, it could have given her more depth. 

 

1 hour ago, maraleia said:

That was Ilene Fucking Chaiken's fault for the show not having POC other than Bette and Kit. Again, you can thank Jennifer for having her family on the show be bi-racial.

 

Now, this makes me wonder if the racial element of the baby storyline was also thanks to Jennifer and not the writers.  Remember in that storyline  when she and Tina were looking for donors, Bette specifically chose a black donor  because she wanted the baby to reflect who they both were racially.  Doesn't sound like this kinda of thought process would have come from those writers...

[DearEvette]

Zazie Beetz who plays Van Donald Glover's off-and-on girlfriend  in the tv show Atlanta has been cast as the super hero Domino in Deadpool 2.  This is another case of Marvel race bending a character from the comics.