Race & Ethnicity On TV

[Ms.Moon]

On 12/1/2016 at 10:54 AM, roseslg said:

Has anyone seen Chewing Gum on Netflix?  I binge-watched it with my husband (who's white) and we both thought it was hilarious.  I was happy that we didn't get the conventional, pretty, light-skinned black woman in the role.    I need to talk to someone about the show!!!!!

Thank you for commenting on this I just started watching and I watched three episodes in a row it is so funny I am loving it.  

[DearEvette]

I wasn't going to watch it because it looks rather tired and I have pretty much given up on Empire, but Lee Daniels talks about why he cast a white protagonist as the lead singer in his new show Star. His comments don't prompt me to change my mind.

http://www.thewrap.com/lee-daniels-says-he-made-star-lead-white-because-the-country-needed-to-heal/

[Dee]

Lee is/can be very problematic. So are his peers.

Shonda, Tyler, Issa, Ava, Kenya, Curtis, Oprah.

All of them are guilty of saying really questionable stuff to the media and/or making really questionable choices with their art, which is disheartening as a fan, but to some degree part of the game.

[DearEvette]

Sure, but there is problematic and there is just damn stupid sounding.  Dude, just say the actress blew you away and she was the best person for the part.  I'd respect that and carry on.  Casting a white lead character with black side kicks isn't exactly new or revolutionary, isn't going to placate the anyone, and certainly isn't going to stop a 'civil war'.  Seriously how is casting a white lead actor in anything addressing race relations?

[maraleia]

44 minutes ago, Dee said:

Lee is/can be very problematic. So are his peers.

Shonda, Tyler, Issa, Ava, Kenya, Curtis, Oprah.

All of them are guilty of saying really questionable stuff to the media and/or making really questionable choices with their art, which is disheartening as a fan, but to some degree part of the game.

Serious question what has Shonda and Issa and Ava and Kenya said that's questionable?

[Dee]

5 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Sure, but there is problematic and there is just damn stupid sounding.  Dude, just say the actress blew you away and she was the best person for the part.  I'd respect that and carry on.  Casting a white lead character with black side kicks isn't exactly new or revolutionary, isn't going to placate the anyone, and certainly isn't going to stop a 'civil war'.  Seriously how is casting a white lead actor in anything addressing race relations?

Oh, don't get me wrong, I completely agree with you; both on your aversion to him casting a white lead for Star and his reasoning behind it.

From other interviews he's given, Lee tends, for better or worse, to be stuck in the late 70s in terms of his worldview, which causes a lot of problems when he attempts to articulate his stance on current events. At the core, he has some interesting perspectives on certain issues, but his bloviating self importance clashes with his outdated worldview, and thus much gets lost in translation imo.

In that way he reminds me a lot of Oprah.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Dee

[Tenshinhan]

4 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Sure, but there is problematic and there is just damn stupid sounding.  Dude, just say the actress blew you away and she was the best person for the part.  I'd respect that and carry on.  Casting a white lead character with black side kicks isn't exactly new or revolutionary, isn't going to placate the anyone, and certainly isn't going to stop a 'civil war'.  Seriously how is casting a white lead actor in anything addressing race relations?

Agreed, his explanation for trying to "heal" the country is total nonsense to me, almost offensively so.

Quote

In the interview, Daniels also said that the reason for his success is his refusal to acknowledge or “embrace” racism throughout his career.

“If I embraced it, it then it became real. And if it became real, then I would be an angry black man,” he said.

Newsflash, racism is real, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.  Additionally, does the reality of racism automatically make you an "angry black man"? And is it really so terrible and unthinkable to be Black and angry??

[Neurochick]

12 hours ago, DearEvette said:

I wasn't going to watch it because it looks rather tired and I have pretty much given up on Empire, but Lee Daniels talks about why he cast a white protagonist as the lead singer in his new show Star. His comments don't prompt me to change my mind.

http://www.thewrap.com/lee-daniels-says-he-made-star-lead-white-because-the-country-needed-to-heal/

Well now I'm REALLY not going to watch this stupid shit show.  Just say that you cast a white lead because you want white people to watch, the end.  It was a business decision, period.  Nothing wrong with that. 

Edited December 7, 2016 by Neurochick

[jhlipton]

14 hours ago, DearEvette said:

I wasn't going to watch it because it looks rather tired and I have pretty much given up on Empire, but Lee Daniels talks about why he cast a white protagonist as the lead singer in his new show Star. His comments don't prompt me to change my mind.

http://www.thewrap.com/lee-daniels-says-he-made-star-lead-white-because-the-country-needed-to-heal/

I was going to watch -- largely to see Queen Latifah slap Benjamin Bratt upside the head.  Now, not so much.

I had thought all three girls were equal stars (much as the three sons on Empire are equal stars.  Now... yuck. 

======================================================

In other news, This is Us continues to hit the trifecta of heart, wit and soul; while Pitch hits it out of the park (see what I did there?).

I like how they treat race on TIU -- it's an important part of who Randall is, but it doesn't define him.  On Pitch, race is hardly a factor at all -- Ginny nis attracted to men regardless of race -- her first real boyfriend is black, and now she's interested in two white men.  She likes them for who they are not their skin color.  These are my two favorite new shows and in the top 5 of all current shows.

[DeLurker]

9 hours ago, Tenshinhan said:

Additionally, does the reality of racism automatically make you an "angry black man"?

If the reality of racism doesn't make you angry, that's a different problem you have.  Regardless (irregardless?) of your race.

[Dee]

The Safe Progressivism of This Is Us

Quote

It’s true that This Is Us has acknowledged the racial issues that arise when white parents try to raise a black child. But most of the time, the show depicts Rebecca and Jack as the kind of good, upstanding, progressive white folk who won’t make anyone watching NBC on a Tuesday night feel uncomfortable. When Rebecca drags Randall away from a black family at the community swimming pool in a way that makes her seem racist, she immediately reverses course, apologizes to the black mother she offended (Ryan Michelle Bathe, who happens to be Sterling K. Brown’s wife in real life), and sets up a play date. Since Yvette, that black mother, exists in the This Is Us universe, she is, of course, immediately forgiving and more than happy to oblige.

Rebecca and Jack also actively seek ways to make Randall feel connected to the black community, most notably when they sign him up for a martial-arts class at a studio owned, operated, and dominated by black men who could be role models for their son. In keeping with the white savior trope, it’s clear they are trying to do everything right by Randall. Which is admirable and, by the way, not, on its face, unrealistic. I know that there are white parents right now in this country who are trying to raise black sons and daughters with the same level of sensitivity and love.

What’s disappointing is that we so rarely see Rebecca or Jack confronting their own unconscious biases or sense of privilege. It’s disappointing because This Is Us has established itself as a show that’s thoughtful enough to explore that territory; it could go further down the road it’s traveling, it just keeps choosing to turn the car around. It’s even more disappointing because, as the recent presidential election results have shown, many white people in America seem very capable of overlooking racism, on scales large and small, without ever bothering to consider what this says about the flickers of prejudice in their own hearts. This Is Us is exactly the kind of show that could shine a light on the need for further self-examination on this point. But so far, it hasn’t. I am hopeful that will change in the final eight installments of this 18-episode season,

Edited December 7, 2016 by Dee

[jhlipton]

12 minutes ago, DeLurker said:

If the reality of racism doesn't make you angry, that's a different problem you have.  Regardless (irregardless?) of your race.

True dat.

4 minutes ago, Dee said:

The Safe Progressivism of This Is Us

It would be highly unrealistic to me for Jack and Rebecca to question their biases and privilege.  I'm about the same age (64) and while I've always been progressive (in the same manner as Jack and Rebecca), it really didn't occur to me to question my privilege until 5 to 10 years ago.  Now I am "woke" (or try to be).

[roseslg]

23 minutes ago, DeLurker said:

If the reality of racism doesn't make you angry, that's a different problem you have.  Regardless (irregardless?) of your race.

Regardless.  Irregardless is a non-word that is becoming a word :).  Carry on!

[Raja]

16 minutes ago, roseslg said:

Regardless.  Irregardless is a non-word that is becoming a word :).  Carry on!

Ain't that the truth

[DearEvette]

I agree This is Us is a feel good show that wants you to like J & R for their earnestness, but I also think the writer of the article misses some of the nuances.

Rebecca didn't initially bond with Randall because he was the 'baby that didn't grow in her body'.  But I at least got the sense that part of that was that he was 'other' and not just because he was adopted but because he was a brown baby next to her other two white ones.  

Also the initial confrontation between Rebecca and Yvette was rather contentious.  Yvette said 'you're a white family with a black son and have never introduced yourself to the other black families' and proceeded to give Rebecca advice about what sort of lotion Randall needed for his dry ashy skin.  This little reminder about the invisibility of the black folks they saw everyday was, imo, about their inherent biases.  Rebecca got defensive immediately because she felt Yvette externalized some of this uncertainties Rebecca still had about raising a black child.  She only turned back to Yvette, not because she was apologizing, but because she saw Randall scratching his skin and she realized she couldn't ignore the fact that Yvette raised some good points.

Also,  Yvette later has to tell Jack not to use her as his "it's ok to do this because the black lady said so" whisperer when Jack goes to her to validate his desire not to send Randall to an all white gifted school. 

I think there are other examples of Jack & Rebecca -- maybe not confronting their biases (because who really does that consciously?) but subconsciously acting through them.  As one who lives within a multiracial family I can attest that it really isn't as simple as that and in the end you still have to live in your family.

[topanga]

1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

I agree This is Us is a feel good show that wants you to like J & R for their earnestness, but I also think the writer of the article misses some of the nuances.

Rebecca didn't initially bond with Randall because he was the 'baby that didn't grow in her body'.  But I at least got the sense that part of that was that he was 'other' and not just because he was adopted but because he was a brown baby next to her other two white ones.  

Also the initial confrontation between Rebecca and Yvette was rather contentious.  Yvette said 'you're a white family with a black son and have never introduced yourself to the other black families' and proceeded to give Rebecca advice about what sort of lotion Randall needed for his dry ashy skin.  This little reminder about the invisibility of the black folks they saw everyday was, imo, about their inherent biases.  Rebecca got defensive immediately because she felt Yvette externalized some of this uncertainties Rebecca still had about raising a black child.  She only turned back to Yvette, not because she was apologizing, but because she saw Randall scratching his skin and she realized she couldn't ignore the fact that Yvette raised some good points.

Also,  Yvette later has to tell Jack not to use her as his "it's ok to do this because the black lady said so" whisperer when Jack goes to her to validate his desire not to send Randall to an all white gifted school. 

I think there are other examples of Jack & Rebecca -- maybe not confronting their biases (because who really does that consciously?) but subconsciously acting through them.  As one who lives within a multiracial family I can attest that it really isn't as simple as that and in the end you still have to live in your family.

YMMV, but I like the way the show addresses race in subtle but clear ways. The show isn't perfect, but it does discuss race:

• Yvette pointed out--albeit rudely, IMO--that Randall wants to hang out with her kids at the pool because it's natural to occasionally want to spend time with other people who look like you. And she pointed out that yes, black kids need suncreen. And lotion, too.
• And I don't think Rebecca was entirely wrong in that pool confrontation. She was frantically looking for her missing son, and Yvette took that moment to chastise Rebecca for not introducing herself to other black parents. Yvette couldn't understand--or refused to understand--why a mother would be upset about not being able to find her eight-year-old son. Her concern had nothing to do with Randall playing with black children. 
• But then we have Randall as an adult remembering how isolated he felt as a child and that he kept a tally of whenever he met another black person in their predominantly white town.  So his feelings of racial isolation did affect him as a child, and the show acknowledged this. 
• Adult Randall continues to face racial bias as an adult, and the show talks about it, usually in a humorous way. But Randall did tell his father in the clothing store that he tries to joke about racism to keep him from becoming angry and bitter. So no, he hasn't addressed issues of police shootings and Black Lives Matter, but we see Randall live these issues. When he and Kevin were fighting in Times Square, Randall jumped up and said, "I'm still black." Because a police officer who approached the scene would almost always assume Randall was the perpetrator of the incident, not Kevin  (I can't remember who actually started the physical fight). We see it when he addressed the security guard who thought his father was a homeless man who'd invaded the development. You can argue whether he was smiling too much and being too nice with the security guard, but that's another issue. 
• No, Rebecca never addressed the fact that she didn't bond well with Randall early on partly because he's black. We don't know for sure if this is true. But it would have been nice for her (or Jack) to bring this up as one of their fears. "What if I'm not bonding with him because he's black?"
• Oh, and I didn't think Jack was trying to use Yvette. He went to her for advice: 'I'm not black, so I'masking for your opinion about how attending this private, all-white school will affect a black boy?'

Edited December 7, 2016 by topanga

[possibilities]

I actually thought Rebecca and Jack came off as totally negligent fucked up assholes, having never bothered to find out such basic things as whether or not their black child needed sunscreen, and continuing to ignorantly debate it between themselves instead of actually figuring it out-- the child was 8 years old by the time we find out about this problem, and they are asking themselves this basic question???? That's not the only example, but it's one of the ways I think the show does call them out for being lazy and stupid as parents in an interracial parenting situation, and shows how their oblivousness to their own unexamined attitudes causes harm. There is no way they didn't know whether their white kids needed sunscreen or not, and we're shown very explicitly that they care about that. Being "colorblind" is not really being praised on the show; I think it's being shown to be straight up bullshit.

Maybe other people didn't think there was anything wrong with this behavior, and in that case, the show should amp up the directness of its criticism. But considering how many people in the episode thread were defending Rebecca and complaining about Yvette after Yvette called Rebecca out, I'm not sure how the show could do it more forcefully without defensive white people getting their backs up even more and not learning a damn thing.

I think it's very important to figure out how to penetrate that wall of defense and excuses, but I thought the show was trying to do it by showing all the scenes mentioned, plus some others. Racism is so intense that there are even people who are criticizing Randall's wife for always defending him (this makes her an aggressive Black woman, apparently).

The show may be forced to choose between appealing to people it wants to "educate" by coddling their asses, vs appealing to people it wants to represent by... representing. I like that they have been representing strong Black women (Yvette at the pool, Randall's wife) without apologizing for their strengths, and showing the struggles Randall has as a Black man who was raised by white people in a racist world. He has several times been shown to be struggling very hard with how painful it is, not only growing up but also as an adult.

Not saying the show couldn't do better, but I don't think they haven't done it at all.

[ribboninthesky1]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

That's not the only example, but it's one of the ways I think the show does call them out for being lazy and stupid as parents in an interracial parenting situation, and shows how their oblivousness to their own unexamined attitudes causes harm. There is no way they didn't know whether their white kids needed sunscreen or not, and we're shown very explicitly that they care about that. Being "colorblind" is not really being praised on the show; I think it's being shown to be straight up bullshit.

I haven't really watched the show since that episode, so perhaps there have been other incidents.  But I didn't get the sense that the show called them out for being lazy and stupid in that context.  Clueless, perhaps, but not lazy or self-indulgent in Randall's case (Kevin is a different matter).  In addition, given the response on the thread at the time, it felt like the vast majority were more sympathetic to Rebecca and felt Yvette was out of line. To the point of missing how Randall was impacted by his parents' ignorance. I never saw a post about the way Rebecca barged into the area of black parents, particularly Yvette who she had to walk around to get Randall, and completely ignored them to drag her child away, even though he was perfectly safe and sound.  How Randall must have suffered with poor haircuts and skin issues for years.  But hey, Yvette didn't introduce herself and wasn't nice to Rebecca, so she's in the wrong.  

There also seemed to be a lot of excuse-making of them not having the "opportunity" to interact with black people before the pool incident, which made zero sense to me. If Randall kept a book tally for when he met black people, if he knew black kids would be at that pool, then obviously....they're meeting black people. They just chose not to engage them. That's on Jack and Rebecca.  Anyway, that show and some of the discussion got my blood pressure up, so for my own sanity, I moved on.        

[tennisgurl]

To me, Jack and Rebecca have pretty much always been portrayed as well meaning and good parents and people, but were not perfect, and left all three of their kids with a lot of issues, despite their good intentions. They didn't handle everything with Randall and his identity as a black child perfectly, but I think the show realizes that. Randall is probably the most well adjusted of the three kids as an adult, but he still has issues (a lot of those came out when he had an accidental drug trip where he was his adopted father) with being a black, adopted person in a white family. The show might not have had Jack and Rebecca literally say "we totally screwed things up with our white people biases", but it seems like its there in the subtext. A big point of the show is that most of its characters are good people who have notable characters flaws and do crappy or stupid things, but can still good people. 

I get what that article is saying, and maybe I am totally wrong, I wasn't really alive for most of the 80s, when most of the flashbacks took place, but were things like understanding their racial biases and racial privileges as white people a big part of the culture, especially for a middle class couple raising three kids, even when one of them is black? Was that something people really talked about, the way they do now? It just seems like, from what I have seen and heard from people who remember that time, people certainly knew about and discussed racial issues, it wasn't really in a white privilege kind of context. Basically, I think it would be a little unrealistic for a couple in the early 80s to be spending a ton of time discussing things like privilege that wouldn't get a lot of media attention for years. 

[possibilities]

I'm 51. I certainly knew all about it when I was growing up, but I was raised by people who made an effort on these issues. There are people even today who have no clue.

But a parent who doesn't know whether to use sunscreen is not a parent who is trying very hard. If nothing else, they could have asked the pediatrician. I think that people are making excuses for Jack and Rebecca because at some level they think that if the kid is Black, the parents should automatically be given a pass on being mystified as though the situation requires nothing but "meaning well" and anything they do is "enough" -- I think "they mean well" or "they're trying" is a very weak excuse for something like this that is so basic. It devalues the kid and makes it seem like the parents are considered heroes for no reason.

[DearEvette]

18 hours ago, topanga said:

YMMV, but I like the way the show addresses race in subtle but clear ways. The show isn't perfect, but it does discuss race:

Oh,I totally agree with you.  My issue is really with the article that suggested that in an effort to not make people uncomfortable with race or about Jack & Rebecca that the show was trying too hard to make J&R these super progressive people and ignoring their inherent biases.  I was pointing out that the show is actually allowing that to bleed through in smallish more believable ways that aren't spoken but rather are displayed.  The critical factor is a lot of people don't examine their biases but they act them even progressive people, even well meaning people.  And for that to be a criticism of the show feels disingenuous especially when J&R are the type of people who at the time in 1979 wouldn't have even really understood the term 'progressive.'

6 hours ago, possibilities said:

But a parent who doesn't know whether to use sunscreen is not a parent who is trying very hard. If nothing else, they could have asked the pediatrician. I think that people are making excuses for Jack and Rebecca because at some level they think that if the kid is Black, the parents should automatically be given a pass on being mystified

This is a case where I think the show did a great job, though, in highlighting something that wouldn't be apparent to a white parent with a black child.  It wasn't sunscreen.  It was a case where Randall would get his hair cut and because of the curly texture of black hair and the way it grows, after a close haircut the skin can develop these little bumps where the hair gets trapped under the skin.  It can cause irritation and inflammation.  Rebecca thought it was simply a rash and was telling Randall to stop scratching.  Yvette recognized it immediately and told Rebecca what sort of after care and lotion he needed after a haircut.  This is the sort of subtle thing that I think the article misses.  Rebecca thinking she can just treat Randall the same as Kevin but something so seemingly small  like his hair not being the same make a big difference.

[DangerousMinds]

On 12/6/2016 at 10:47 PM, Dee said:

Oh, don't get me wrong, I completely agree with you; both on your aversion to him casting a white lead for Star and his reasoning behind it.

From other interviews he's given, Lee tends, for better or worse, to be stuck in the late 70s in terms of his worldview, which causes a lot of problems when he attempts to articulate his stance on current events. At the core, he has some interesting perspectives on certain issues, but his bloviating self importance clashes with his outdated worldview, and thus much gets lost in translation imo.

In that way he reminds me a lot of Oprah.

Can you elaborate on this? I lived through the 70's and have no idea what you mean here.

[Dee]

Lee, and many of his friends, have said his worldview is stuck in the era of Diana Ross and Studio 54.

He's kept aware of many current events via his kids and cast members of his shows.

So he tends to make statements about current hot button issues like "homophobia in the black community," "classism," "racism," etc, that are embarrassingly outdated or have been thoroughly debunked.

[Neurochick]

16 hours ago, possibilities said:

I actually thought Rebecca and Jack came off as totally negligent fucked up assholes, having never bothered to find out such basic things as whether or not their black child needed sunscreen, and continuing to ignorantly debate it between themselves instead of actually figuring it out-- the child was 8 years old by the time we find out about this problem, and they are asking themselves this basic question???? That's not the only example, but it's one of the ways I think the show does call them out for being lazy and stupid as parents in an interracial parenting situation, and shows how their oblivousness to their own unexamined attitudes causes harm. There is no way they didn't know whether their white kids needed sunscreen or not, and we're shown very explicitly that they care about that. Being "colorblind" is not really being praised on the show; I think it's being shown to be straight up bullshit.

Maybe other people didn't think there was anything wrong with this behavior, and in that case, the show should amp up the directness of its criticism. But considering how many people in the episode thread were defending Rebecca and complaining about Yvette after Yvette called Rebecca out, I'm not sure how the show could do it more forcefully without defensive white people getting their backs up even more and not learning a damn thing.

I think you're correct in saying that.  But I don't want the show to make it look like Jack and Rebecca are these super liberal, super aware parents.  They aren't, because they're flawed people.  I thought Rebecca looked stupid when she confronted Yvette and I also think Rebecca felt stupid because she had to ask Yvette if Randall needed sunscreen, and that she understand that Randall needed lotion when he got out of the pool.  To me that made sense, because why would Rebecca know something like that?  Some things you learn by observation, and if they were living in a white neighborhood, surrounded by white people, they might not have known that.  

[Lady Calypso]

2 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I think you're correct in saying that.  But I don't want the show to make it look like Jack and Rebecca are these super liberal, super aware parents.  They aren't, because they're flawed people.  I thought Rebecca looked stupid when she confronted Yvette and I also think Rebecca felt stupid because she had to ask Yvette if Randall needed sunscreen, and that she understand that Randall needed lotion when he got out of the pool.  To me that made sense, because why would Rebecca know something like that?  Some things you learn by observation, and if they were living in a white neighborhood, surrounded by white people, they might not have known that.  

Agreed. This is the point that the show is getting at, I think. I really believe that they're doing this on purpose. It's not to make Jack and Rebecca look like shitty parents, because they are quite capable of taking care of their children and they love their children a lot. It's the fact that they are ignorant while raising their children and how normal it is. They can be portrayed as being in the wrong, and they have been. They didn't try looking for help with Randall and his needs because it's likely Rebecca and Jack thought that the colour of his skin didn't matter. Usually it doesn't, but clearly in some cases such as sunscreen and hair care, it is. Rebecca and Jack were going through a lifelong learning process. They weren't going to learn everything to help Randall in a year. 

It's just nice to show viewers that parenting is an ongoing process for the rest of their lives. I don't know how things in the 80s were like because I was born in the early 90s, but I think without the Internet and without having black neighbours or black co-workers, it would be tough to find out all these answers that Rebecca and Jack would have had. And a lot of their stupidity didn't seem as much stupidity as it was ignorance. I guess I just look at the times of today, where almost every type of information is at your fingertips, where you can answer questions in a blink of an eye. 

[Neurochick]

2 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

It's just nice to show viewers that parenting is an ongoing process for the rest of their lives. I don't know how things in the 80s were like because I was born in the early 90s, but I think without the Internet and without having black neighbours or black co-workers, it would be tough to find out all these answers that Rebecca and Jack would have had. And a lot of their stupidity didn't seem as much stupidity as it was ignorance. I guess I just look at the times of today, where almost every type of information is at your fingertips, where you can answer questions in a blink of an eye. 

I'm 57, when I was about 7 years old, I had a friend who was biracial; her mother, who was white, would comb this girl's hair, dry, every morning and naturally her hair was tangled, because it was curly/coily.  Her mother wasn't a monster, she just had no way of knowing how to take care of this girl's hair.  There wasn't a lot of information at that time; many little black girls' parents relaxed their hair, few wore their hair as it (I know I didn't).  All this woman knew was that she could not relax her daughter's hair, but she had no idea what to do with her daughter's curls.  Today, there are videos and products made for all types of hair, if one has access to the Internet it's all at your fingertips.

I do not have children but from what I have seen, being a parent is an ongoing process and you never finish learning.

[jhlipton]

I'll be 64 in 3 more days (yikes!) and grew up in a fairly liberal small town in Northern California.  I think Jack and Rebecca are very much like the people from my town (we had maybe one or two black families).  Being "woke" wasn't much of an option then (I considered the Black Panther Party "cop-killers" until I learned better just a few years ago -- and Oakland was only 50 miles away!), even though I was raised to be as non-racist as possible.  I definitely don't see Jack and Rebecca as "lazy and stupid" as much as a product of their time.

[Ms Blue Jay]

My parents are of two different races and religions.  I grew up in the 80s.  My parents never talked to me about my race(s) or religion really; I was a very argumentative kid (their word) that constantly brought up this stuff to them - asking questions, demanding to learn more, etc.  I am now in my 30s where only now my mother is talking about some of this stuff from me - every thing she says these days is like a truth bomb. I can't believe how much we never talked about. She was so closed off when we were growing up.  I did a lot of 'learning' on my own and to be honest I think my parents learned some things from myself and my siblings.   (They are very good to me and I give them a lot of credit for it.  But on some of these issues...... hmmm.)

I personally really like This is Us and can relate to it so incredibly strongly, we have a "Randall" situation in our family as well.  And same gender breakdown and amount of kids, etc.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[xaxat]

Sonequa Martin-Green has been cast as the lead in Star Trek:Discovery. She's currently playing Sasha on The Walking Dead. Michelle Yeoh also has a role.

[memememe76]

Iirc, Jack and Rebecca always put sunscreen on Randall. Randall, being a kid and not wanting to put sunscreen, asked whether he really needed it. The parents said of course he needed it, but were not 100 percent sure. 

[Neurochick]

I wrote this on the "This is Us" thread, but I think it belongs here as well:

Quote

I love seeing Randall and Beth and I'd watch a whole show with them.  I think it's important for black children to see couples on TV like Randall and Beth, all the time, rather than the dysfunction junction that is on shows like Love and Hip Hop and Black Ink Crew.  I grew up in the 60's and 70's and never heard the word "babymama" or "babydaddy."  It was always, "my husband/my wife."  Black children need to see that no, marriage is NOT just for white people (which is a title of a book, "Is Marriage for White People?").

[Dee]

It's interesting how Pitch has under-performed compared to This Is Us.

[jhlipton]

1 hour ago, Dee said:

It's interesting how Pitch has under-performed compared to This Is Us.

Why compare those two shows in particular, if I may ask?

[Dee]

Because Dan Fogelman is the creator and EP of both shows.

[jhlipton]

That could explain why I like both shows so much. 

[maraleia]

Pitch is on FOX that's why it's underperforming. They haven't given it any promotional coverage outside of their own network.

[Ms Blue Jay]

We've all had shows we've fallen in love with on Fox only for them to get the axe

[jhlipton]

And with Fogelman having a hit on another network, Fox has no need to keep him happy.

[DearEvette]

On 12/17/2016 at 10:09 PM, Dee said:

It's interesting how Pitch has under-performed compared to This Is Us.

Have you met Fox?  LOL.

[ribboninthesky1]

On 12/17/2016 at 10:09 PM, Dee said:

It's interesting how Pitch has under-performed compared to This Is Us.

I think a network, fictional, sports-themed show centered on a young black woman in baseball was always a tough sell. Maybe because I don't watch the genre, but I can't think of such a show (fictional, sports-themed on a network) that recently did well in the ratings. Maybe Friday Night Lights, but that ended years ago, and it felt more like an ensemble. And of course, the sports aspect was centered on males, so there's that. 

[MissAlmond]

56 minutes ago, ribboninthesky1 said:

I think a network, fictional, sports-themed show centered on a young black woman in baseball was always a tough sell. Maybe because I don't watch the genre, but I can't think of such a show (fictional, sports-themed on a network) that recently did well in the ratings. Maybe Friday Night Lights, but that ended years ago, and it felt more like an ensemble. And of course, the sports aspect was centered on males, so there's that. 

I know hardcore baseball fans of all races/sexes/ages who most certainly would follow the progression of the first female baseball player, no matter her race, and discuss how she was doing incessantly.  None of them were interested in weekly watching a fictional first female baseball player whose stats were made up by a showrunner and career progression dictated by storyline. 

Edited December 19, 2016 by MissAlmond

[Dee]

2 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Have you met Fox?  LOL.

Touche!

[Dee]

1 hour ago, ribboninthesky1 said:

I think a network, fictional, sports-themed show centered on a young black woman in baseball was always a tough sell. Maybe because I don't watch the genre, but I can't think of such a show (fictional, sports-themed on a network) that recently did well in the ratings. Maybe Friday Night Lights, but that ended years ago, and it felt more like an ensemble. And of course, the sports aspect was centered on males, so there's that. 

Prior to its premiere, Pitch, according to many tv critics, was one of the buzziest pilots in this season's television cycle.

But then critics also loved Greenleaf & Queen Sugar, and they both flopped too, so maybe it's just harder to launch shows with WOC as ensemble leads vs. white centered "diverse" shows like This Is Us.

[paulvdb]

Ratings for Friday Night Lights were never great. Its ratings were always at the lower end of toss-up for renewal and had to be rescued by DirecTV for its last two seasons after NBC cancelled it. Other than that I can't think of any recent sport-centered series on network TV. If we include cable there was also Matador (soccer) on the El Rey Network which was cancelled after one season. And Make It Or Break It (gymnastics) on ABC Family which lasted four seasons if I remember correctly but ratings were always at the lower end of toss-up level. So I guess it should not be a surprise that ratings for Pitch are not good.

[DearEvette]

37 minutes ago, Dee said:

But then critics also loved Greenleaf & Queen Sugar, and they both flopped too, so maybe it's just harder to launch shows with WOC as ensemble leads vs. white centered "diverse" shows like This Is Us.

I don't know about Greenleaf because I don't watch it  but ratings wise, Queen Sugar is not a flop at all.  It is basic cable so it will not compete with Network, necessarily.  And of course it can't compete with cable monsters like Walking Dead. But it's first season average it has done better than some CW shows, it outperforms other AA centric shows like Atlanta & Insecure and also other buzzy cable shows like Mr. Robot, Fargo, Orphan Black, etc. in both demo and total numbers.  It is also one of the highest social media rated shows on its night.

For a show that absolutely targets black women as its audience, I think that is pretty impressive. 

[Dee]

Out averaging CW shows isn't exactly a huge deal, because CW shows are routinely among the lowest rated shows on television.

[DearEvette]

14 minutes ago, Dee said:

Out averaging CW shows isn't exactly a huge deal, because CW shows are routinely among the lowest rated shows on television.

LOL, true dat.  CW is always graded on a ratings curve.  But it is still a Network and is is a subsidiary of CBS and advertising on a network costs more so,  they are held to a different ratings standard than cable.   So it is rather significant that a relatively small cable channel like OWN with very little original content is managing to perform like an albeit slow network.  In fact amongst like basic channels that offer similar content, OWN is growing hugely.

And -- back on topic -- speaking of CBS, it really chaps my ass that they are stacking their WOC leads on shows on their All Access channel.  So in order to see Michelle Yeoh and Sonequa Martin-Green on Star Trek and Cush Gumbo & Erica Tazel on The Good Fight you have to pony up 6 to 10 bucks a month.  The message of course is if you want more diversity on CBS you have to pay extra for it.

[ribboninthesky1]

3 hours ago, MissAlmond said:

I know hardcore baseball fans of all races/sexes/ages who most certainly would follow the progression of the first female baseball player, no matter her race, and discuss how she was doing incessantly.  None of them were interested in weekly watching a fictional first female baseball player whose stats were made up by a showrunner and career progression dictated by storyline. 

I don't watch baseball - do you think a general, fictional show about baseball would have piqued hardcore fans' interest?

1 hour ago, Dee said:

Prior to its premiere, Pitch, according to many tv critics, was one of the buzziest pilots in this season's television cycle.

I tend to take critical darlings with a grain of salt.  It doesn't always translate into people watching the show. 

1 hour ago, paulvdb said:

Ratings for Friday Night Lights were never great. Its ratings were always at the lower end of toss-up for renewal and had to be rescued by DirecTV for its last two seasons after NBC cancelled it. Other than that I can't think of any recent sport-centered series on network TV. If we include cable there was also Matador (soccer) on the El Rey Network which was cancelled after one season. And Make It Or Break It (gymnastics) on ABC Family which lasted four seasons if I remember correctly but ratings were always at the lower end of toss-up level. So I guess it should not be a surprise that ratings for Pitch are not good.

I didn't know that about FNL, thanks for the insight.  I couldn't think of a recent sports-themed show on a network that did well ratings-wise.  I'm not a Fox fan at all, but I assumed a show like Pitch wouldn't have done well by any network standard. Fox probably didn't help matters, but I don't think it's solely on them.  

[jhlipton]

1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

It really chaps my ass that they are stacking their WOC leads on shows on their All Access channel.  So in order to see Michelle Yeoh and Sonequa Martin-Green on Star Trek and Cush Gumbo & Erica Tazel on The Good Fight you have to pony up 6 to 10 bucks a month.  The message of course is if you want more diversity on CBS you have to pay extra for it.

I was looking forward to ST:D (in spite of the ghastly initials).  But it's not worth rewarding their "pay-for-play" business model.

Edited December 19, 2016 by jhlipton
un-italicize

[xaxat]

5 hours ago, ribboninthesky1 said:

I think a network, fictional, sports-themed show centered on a young black woman in baseball was always a tough sell.

To their credit, I think Fox and the producers considered this when creating the show.

In addition to the premise, it has the backing of the San Diego Padres and their stadium, Major League Baseball and their various team copyrights, Fox Sports and their broadcast personalities. There has never been a show that has been so closely rooted in real life sports. 

Yet, despite being a baseball fan and enjoying the pilot, I stopped watching after the first episode. Maybe I'll binge over the Holiday.