Race & Ethnicity On TV

[Ms Blue Jay]

Are you sure it's a joke when it's reported in how many publications and it's listed as post-production on IMDB?

 

Edited:  Oh, I understand now.  You thought kili was quoting your joke.... no.  Kili was quoting the actual news story.

 

Edited to use the right person's username!

 

Elizabeth, Michael and Marlon (TV Movie) (post-production)

Michael Jackson

Edited January 28, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[kili]

Edited:  Oh, I understand now.  You thought kia112 was quoting your joke.... no.  Kia112 was quoting the actual news story.

 

Yes, I'm responding to the actual news story.  Although, if I hadn't read the casting news myself on a reputable news site, I would have thought it was from the Onion.

[BetterButter]

Joseph Fiennes defends Michael Jackson role: ‘He was probably closer to my color’ Edited January 27, 2016 by BetterButter

[xaxat]

Keep digging dude, keep digging.

[Minneapple]

Joseph Fiennes to play Michael Jackson in 9/11 road-trip drama

I...WHAT?

 

To me, part of the issue is that black actors are only cast for "black" roles. Colorblind casting usually goes to white guys. Or apparently roles that are supposed to be about black people go to white guys! Many of the roles you see on TV and in film, they could be played by an actor or actress of any color. But...they're usually white. 

 

For example, I see that NCIS is going to create a new character after Michael Weatherly leaves, and they're looking for a woman. They released a character description today that does not mention color. What are the odds that a woman of color is cast in the role?

 

In something like 15 years NCIS has had I think one black main character and Cote de Pablo, who is Latina but played an Israeli character. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Joseph Fiennes defends Michael Jackson role: ‘He was probably closer to my color’

 

Y'know, I've been thinking about how to say something regarding this without getting dog-piled for a simple observation, but I think that had it not been for Jackson's apparent dysphoria, the suggestion of this project would never have come up. Because whether or not he was a kook, the plastic surgery and whatever else was a choice that he made. That doesn't make it okay for Fiennes to accept the role, or for the project to be a go at all, of course.

[Dee]

I'd accept Flex Alexander in a ton of pancake makeup as MJ, before I'd ever accept Joseph Fiennes as the King of Pop.

[Wax Lion]

Colorblind casting usually goes to white guys.

 

Plenty of people (in different jobs) have talked about how if a casting notice says "All ethnicities" only a small number of agents will share if with their nonwhite clients. I often wonder if "colorblind" casting is a matter of "We said the role was open to all ethnicities, not our fault only white people auditioned."

[Archery]

I don't know anything about the actual Michael project, so I guess I'm holding out hope that it will be some sort of brilliant casting like Linda Hunt in Year of Living Dangerously, or some artistic, surreal statement like Cate Blanchett playing Bob Dylan, or purposefully ironic like the casting of Hamilton: The Musical on Broadway. I can't imagine any other reason someone who isn't drunk at the time greenlighted this.

[xaxat]

I was kind of wondering the same thing Archery. But if that were the case they should have cast a drag queen for Elizabeth Taylor.

 

Oprah once asked Michael Jackson if a white actor could play him. He was appalled.

Edited January 29, 2016 by xaxat

[After7Only]

I was kind of wondering the same thing Archery. But if that were the case they should have cast a drag queen for Elizabeth Taylor.

 

Oprah once asked Michael Jackson if a white actor could play him. He was appalled.

 

 

Or cast a dark Egyptian woman to play her since she once played Cleopatra.  

[jhlipton]

Or cast a dark Egyptian woman to play her since she once played Cleopatra.  

 

Angela Bassett and Orlando Jones have said they should play Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton.  Seems only fair to me!

[xaxat]

Ryan Murphy Launches Foundation to Tackle Hollywood's Diversity Problem

 

 

Half, a foundation within his 20th Century Fox TV-based production company, aims to have 50 percent of all director slots on his shows filled by women, people of color and members of the LGBT community and will begin outreach efforts at colleges to align candidates with mentors: "I personally can do better," he tells THR.

[galax-arena]

Crazy Ex-Girlfriend star Rachel Bloom on why TV needs more Asian bros

 

 

We were thinking “What hasn’t been done before? What’s a new story we can tell? What’s a new type of character?” We’ve seen the Bro. We haven’t seen an Asian Bro.

 

I really think diversity is simultaneous with telling new stories because, I don’t know, “White People Hanging Out in a Coffee Shop” has been done. Diversity is just more artistically interesting to me because you’re in new territory and the whole purpose of making art, in my head, is to explore topics that haven’t been explored.

 

I have never seen a show that took place in Southern California and portrayed people the way it is in Southern California. The prom king in my high school was Chinese and the prom queen was Japanese. We just didn’t think about it. It was like, “Oh, yeah, George and Mika? They’re the prom king and queen.” It wasn’t until I realized that every other show is set in some nebulous town on the East Coast or Midwest where everyone is white and Protestant… How boring is that? And that’s not truth. That’s not my truth.

 

I remember as a kid living in Southern California and every TV show was set in that typical East Coast high school. And I remember seeing a high school near me that looked like that and thinking, “Oh, a real high school!” That’s not feeling marginalized. Now, if I thought about the way my school looked, imagine being a Filipino person who’s like “I’m not a real American because I’m not on TV.” We’re a nation of immigrants. That’s what being an American is.

Ha, I totally relate to the part about East Coast schools, too. 

Edited February 3, 2016 by galax-arena

[Ms Blue Jay]

Crazy Ex-Girlfriend is a huge deal for making an Asian guy the main love interest of the show.  Also, Asian and Latino people just EXIST on that show as normal people and no attention is drawn to their race, they are just human beings.  It's revolutionary this way.  It's not an Asian show or a Latino show (though for me, the more of those shows, the better) it's just a show where all of these people exist together. 

 

The Asian love interest's name is Josh, and his group of friends have a friend that they call White Josh to differentiate them.  This is also subtly revolutionary.  Usually white people are treated as the default, so you get people thinking they're clever by saying things like "Wow, you're like a black Angelina Jolie"  or "You're like a black Seinfeld."  This show doesn't make white the default at all; hence this white man named Josh has to be called White Josh so people know you're referencing the Other Josh on the show and not the main one.  It's quite something.  Also the main Josh is in an interracial relationship with a Latina woman (again treated as totally normal).

Edited February 4, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[Trini]

Also with CXG, I like that they make an effort to cast various ethnicities for background and guest spots.

[jhlipton]

I'll have to give CXG a look-see.  I've not been enthralled by the show's descriptions though.  It may end up like Grandfathered, where I applauded that there were quite a few black women, none of seemed stereotyped to me, but I couldn't get around the juvenile humor.

[topanga]

 

Oprah once asked Michael Jackson if a white actor could play him. He was appalled.

I can imagine. Did Oprah or anyone else ever get Michael Jackson to discuss why he was becoming white (in terms of skin color, not culturally)?

[Raja]

I can imagine. Did Oprah or anyone else ever get Michael Jackson to discuss why he was becoming white (in terms of skin color, not culturally)?

Yes it was Oprah in 1993 he claimed it was all  vitiligo and make up as he never heard of skin bleaching. Which then the some comedians took and joked about why wasn't it easier to put on dark make up then make up to lightening everything else.

[jhlipton]

Well, Miller has pre-released an ad for their "Ultra" beer (the video is called "Breathe").  White men, check.  Black men, check.  White women, check.  Black women?  C'mon, no one wants to see them!!!!  Ugh.

[Ohwell]

Eh.  I wouldn't get my panties in a bunch over that.  I didn't see an Asian woman either, for that matter.  (It's a Michelob commercial, by the way.) 

[jhlipton]

No Asian men, either, now that you mention it. But I wouldn't have mentioned it if not for the fact that dark-skinned women are a relative rarity in TV.

Edited February 6, 2016 by jhlipton

[Ohwell]

Well, I don't know what your definition of "dark-skinned" is but I see women my color in a lot of commercials.  Granted, they might be in the background in some of the commercials, but I do see them.  I guess I don't think of women my color as being a relative rarity on TV anymore.   

[cynic]

It looks like The Expanse, which just finished its first season, is setting up an OTP between the white male captain and his black female executive officer. While it's only been suggested and I'll have to wait until next season to see how it pans out, I'm already looking forward to it. It's still pretty rare to see a black female in a show's main love story. The show itself is pretty diverse and it has presented a world where normal racial divisions have been replaced by new differences. The books get even more diverse as they go on and the authors of the source material have obviously given the subject a lot of thought, so I'm very optimistic about how they're going to handle both the romance and the show in general.

On the other side, a recent episode of iZombie pissed me off with a black female caricature that they used as a cheap joke in a way that seemed to be deliberately mocking the protests over racial discrimination in the criminal justice system. The character was loud, stupid, fat, and a druggie. All she did was complain in the dumbest ways possible about the unfairness of her arrest and then she chanted "Ferguson". There was no reason for the character's existence except to be laughed at. She wasn't useful to the plot and we didn't learn anything about her. She was just a clown. Oh and then the main character almost ate her and it felt like the show kinda wanted the audience to root for that or think it was funny. Ugh. The whole thing felt like a very pointed commentary, which is weird because the show has a black male in the main cast that is treated pretty decently. I don't recall any other black women that have appeared in other episodes (though I'm not an avid watcher of the show, so I may have missed some), so I don't know if this is a fluke or a trend. I do think it's interesting though that there actually was another black woman in this episode and she was a murder victim who ended up having been killed because she was a crazy stalker cop groupie who was sleeping with married guys.

Edited February 7, 2016 by cynic

[DeLurker]

Eh.  I wouldn't get my panties in a bunch over that.  I didn't see an Asian woman either, for that matter.  (It's a Michelob commercial, by the way.) 

Asians refuse to drink that shit.

[Luckylyn]

It looks like The Expanse, which just finished its first season, is setting up an OTP between the white male captain and his black female executive officer. While it's only been suggested and I'll have to wait until next season to see how it pans out, I'm already looking forward to it. It's still pretty rare to see a black female in a show's main love story. The show itself is pretty diverse and it has presented a world where normal racial divisions have been replaced by new differences. The books get even more diverse as they go on and the authors of the source material have obviously given the subject a lot of thought, so I'm very optimistic about how they're going to handle both the romance and the show in general.

I'm really enjoying the Naomi/Holden dynamic and how they've transitioned from antagonists to teammates and possibly more next season.  Then there's Amos' intense devotion to Naomi which is most likely platonic but could also be romantic but he's so odd in his emotional responses I can't be sure.  All I know is that he would do anything for her.  I thought the show is realistic in that groups that were considered outsiders become part of the mainstream and new biases evolve which has happened in our history.

[Ms Blue Jay]

It's too bad to hear that about iZombie.  My brother asked me to watch a couple of episodes and I love how the main cast includes a black man (the cop), an east Indian man (the forensic guy) and had a bunch of east Asian guys in a storyline of the episode that I watched.  It seems very racially diverse. But I just didn't like the show enough to continue.

[Ohwell]

Asians refuse to drink that shit.

Heh.  I tasted beer once and that was enough for me.  No mas.  

[Wax Lion]

One interesting thing about The Expanse is that they did whitewash a character. Early on, fans of the book were giving the casting some side-eye because an African character was cast with a white actress but that faded once people saw the show because she dies in the first episode, making the whitewashing seem moot. (From what I hear the series has split the books up in their own ways, so maybe they expected her to have a larger role.) Then again, her boyfriend seems to be moving on to another black woman so maybe they did that to avoid jokes about him "having a type".

 

Asians refuse to drink that shit.

 

On Crazy Ex-Girlfriend they do. There was a recent episode where Josh and Greg have a fight. Josh was really angry about Greg's tendency to be pretentious and patronizing but he did it by attacking Greg for bringing a craft beer instead of a "regular" beer for their trip to the beach.

[Archery]

At the moment, I'm trying to get through the pilot episode of Lucifer, but I am utterly bored by the idea that the Prince of Darkness would of course choose to appear as a conventionally attractive white guy with a British accent.  Yawn.  What if -- just what if -- the main character rather had been a minority, walking through LA pushing people's buttons, just as cocky and brilliant and able to influence people's minds without fear or consequence?  The cognitive dissonance would have been interesting.  This is just paint by numbers.   

[cynic]

From what I understand, Lucifer is a blonde in the source material which was a conscious decision to go against people's preconceived notions that light = good and dark = bad. I like the actor they got to play him, but I wish they had kept that conceit. So often goodness, purity, and beauty are represented by someone being fair which ends up enforcing our biases.

....Then again, her boyfriend seems to be moving on to another black woman so maybe they did that to avoid jokes about him "having a type".

I think this is likely the reason. It may have made the relationship seem more based on her being his type than on their connection. Of course, no one would blink if he went out with two blondes in a row, but IR relationships are more scrutinized.

[Zuleikha]

color, not culturally)?

Yes it was Oprah in 1993 he claimed it was all  vitiligo and make up as he never heard of skin bleaching.

Not claimed, but explained. MJ's autopsy confirmed that he did indeed have vitiligo.

[Archery]

Yes it was Oprah in 1993 he claimed it was all  vitiligo and make up as he never heard of skin bleaching.

 

Not claimed, but explained. MJ's autopsy confirmed that he did indeed have vitiligo.

Vitiligo runs in my family (another branch of it), and it makes your skin go from dark to light.  When I met my great-uncle for the first time, I asked my mother why he looked like a palomino pony.  By the time he died, about 15 years later, he was completely Caucasian-looking.  I cannot imagine what it must have been like to be in show business, constantly on camera and on stage, and dealing with the progression of this condition, and to be constantly mocked for it, from white people and black people alike.   

[topanga]

Vitiligo runs in my family (another branch of it), and it makes your skin go from dark to light.  When I met my great-uncle for the first time, I asked my mother why he looked like a palomino pony.  By the time he died, about 15 years later, he was completely Caucasian-looking.  I cannot imagine what it must have been like to be in show business, constantly on camera and on stage, and dealing with the progression of this condition, and to be constantly mocked for it, from white people and black people alike.   

Yes, he had vitiligo. But what about his multiple plastic surgeries that gave him an ultra-narrow nose? Most black people who have nose jobs, even multiple nose jobs, don't go for the aquiline look. And he had his lips thinned. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Yes, he had vitiligo. But what about his multiple plastic surgeries that gave him an ultra-narrow nose? Most black people who have nose jobs, even multiple nose jobs, don't go for the aquiline look. And he had his lips thinned. 

 

He also straightened his hair, although you don't need permanent surgery for that. Was the cleft in his chin also something he had done?

[topanga]

He also straightened his hair, although you don't need permanent surgery for that. Was the cleft in his chin also something he had done?

Yes, he had the cleft inserted. But people of color have them, too. My mother does, as do both of my kids. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Thank you, topanga. All I could remember was this old Golden Girls quote: "Yeah, and Michael Jackson was born with that cleft in his chin."

[Archery]

His plastic surgeries have nothing to do with the very real change of skin color, except, perhaps, if his skin condition contributed to his warped idea of personal beauty (see also: Janet, Jermaine, and La Toya).  Given the issues in the Jackson family, Michael wasn't ever gonna be all right. 

[angora]

And, as Michael explained in the Oprah interview linked above, vitiligo typically occurs in patches, and the difference in skin tone can be stark, particularly on people with dark skin (for an example, here's model Winnie Harlow.)  Getting patches of depigmented skin to darken again is difficult and, due to the risk of skin cancer, potentially dangerous.  As a pop star dealing with a condition that drastically altered his physical appearance during the '80s - we still have a long way to go in terms of disability representation in mainstream media, but think how much worse it was back then - I can't imagine what it must have been like trying how figure out what to do about it.  There was probably no "good solution" for him, and sadly, the solution he did go with (along with his cosmetic surgeries) created much of the "celebrity sideshow" image that was eventually associated with him.

[jhlipton]

From what I understand, Lucifer is a blonde in the source material which was a conscious decision to go against people's preconceived notions that light = good and dark = bad. I like the actor they got to play him, but I wish they had kept that conceit. So often goodness, purity, and beauty are represented by someone being fair which ends up enforcing our biases.

 

All because we're diurnal. If we were nocturnal, black would be good and white would be bad.

On the Lucifer forum, I asked if the Devil had ever been played by anyone other than a white male, and got 2 examples: the remake of Bedazzled and Bananarama;s "Venus".

[Wax Lion]

On that Bible mini-series Satan was played by a Moroccan actor, Mehdi Ouazzani (the one who looked like President Obama once in costume) but unlike Lucifer or Bedazzled I that was a clearly villainous devil and not an entertainingly roguish trickster.

 

I can't think of a time the charming roguish trickster was played by a nonwhite actor. Maybe it'll come to me later.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Wax Lion

[Archery]

In The Passion of the Christ, Satan was played by a white woman, Rosalinda Celentano, with an androgynous appearance.  The portrayal was not of a trickster; it was more sneaky, stealthy, evil, lurking in the background, inflluencing people.  Kind of spooky. 

Edited February 9, 2016 by Archery

[ThomasAAnderson]

 

Yes, he had vitiligo. But what about his multiple plastic surgeries that gave him an ultra-narrow nose? Most black people who have nose jobs, even multiple nose jobs, don't go for the aquiline look. And he had his lips thinned.

A lot  of black people naturally have aquiline noses too. If the MSM didn't work so hard to convince black folks that everything is wrong with our looks when we are born, this poor man probably would have stopped after the first nose job. He spoke in interviews about people ridiculing his acne and nose which surely didn't help a teenager, in the spotlight, with insecurities around their looks. 

 

Joseph Fiennes nose isn't particularly aquiline so again, I'm confused by your statement. There is nothing to support the theory that Michael Jackson wanted to change his race. However there is tons to confirm he was deeply insecure about his looks and couldn't stop tweaking his face to some warped idea of perfection. BTW black  people naturally have cleft chins too so literally any fair skinned black person could play Michael Jackson--Jesse Williams comes to mind or Wentworth Miller.  Hollywood is trying to make an assholish point with this casting.

[angora]

He'd be awfully young for the role and he's not that well known, but just going by appearance, I think Eka Darville in pancake makeup would work pretty well.

[jhlipton]

He'd be awfully young for the role and he's not that well known, but just going by appearance, I think Eka Darville in pancake makeup would work pretty wel

 

There's a Lucifer conversation and a MJ movie conversation going on at the same time, and, at first, I was wondering why the Devil needs pancake make-up!  Then I realized you were commenting on the MJ movie.

 

Eka Darville would make a good MJ.

Edited February 10, 2016 by jhlipton

[topanga]

A lot  of black people naturally have aquiline noses too. If the MSM didn't work so hard to convince black folks that everything is wrong with our looks when we are born, this poor man probably would have stopped after the first nose job. He spoke in interviews about people ridiculing his acne and nose which surely didn't help a teenager, in the spotlight, with insecurities around their looks. 

 

Joseph Fiennes nose isn't particularly aquiline so again, I'm confused by your statement. There is nothing to support the theory that Michael Jackson wanted to change his race. However there is tons to confirm he was deeply insecure about his looks and couldn't stop tweaking his face to some warped idea of perfection. BTW black  people naturally have cleft chins too so literally any fair skinned black person could play Michael Jackson--Jesse Williams comes to mind or Wentworth Miller.  Hollywood is trying to make an assholish point with this casting.

I didn't say that all white people have aquiline noses. My point was that most black people don't. Even the NFL quarterback Cam Newton, with his Romanesque facial features, still has a distinctly African facial structure--his nose is wide at the base, and his lips are full. 

 

     https://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/usp_nfl__carolina_panthers_at_new_orleans_saints_69290296.jpg?w=1200

 

And I didn't say that Michael Jackson wanted to be white. I simply asked if he'd ever talked about why he made his facial features so Caucasoid--specifically, his nose and lips. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

A lot  of black people naturally have aquiline noses too. If the MSM didn't work so hard to convince black folks that everything is wrong with our looks when we are born, this poor man probably would have stopped after the first nose job. He spoke in interviews about people ridiculing his acne and nose which surely didn't help a teenager, in the spotlight, with insecurities around their looks. 

 

Joseph Fiennes nose isn't particularly aquiline so again, I'm confused by your statement. There is nothing to support the theory that Michael Jackson wanted to change his race. However there is tons to confirm he was deeply insecure about his looks and couldn't stop tweaking his face to some warped idea of perfection. BTW black  people naturally have cleft chins too so literally any fair skinned black person could play Michael Jackson--Jesse Williams comes to mind or Wentworth Miller.  Hollywood is trying to make an assholish point with this casting.

 

MSM?

 

And I'm with topanga, I don't think Jackson wanted to be white. But it does rather beg the question as to why he'd choose to have elective surgery, not just once, but several times, to alter the shape of his features, in tandem with the condition that was lightening his skin.

[DigitalCount]

MSM is probably mainstream media.

[feverfew]

All because we're diurnal. If we were nocturnal, black would be good and white would be bad.

 

My great aunt who grew up in Harbin, China, wrote childrens' stories with roots in Chinese folk tales, and that's where I learned that in old China it's actually the opposite: Black means calmness, righteousness, knowledge, trust (and is, according to I, Ching, Heaven's color) while white is the color of sadness, bad luck, evil and death (white is the predominant color for funerals). It's changing now, with the influences of western culture, but I just wanted to mention that.

[xaxat]

An African American woman has been picked to run ABC.