One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[Lady Calypso]

3 hours ago, ghoulina said:

I think the only characters that I generally just did NOT like, couldn't find anything remotely redeemable about them, were Christopher (sorry, I just can't), Logan's parents, and Colin. (Finn could be funny sometimes, but Colin was nothing but a snob who was far too impressed with himself.)

Heh. I can usually never tell any of the LDB members apart from each other, so it took me a full minute to separate Finn from Colin. Finn's the Australian, right? 

Liz is one character that I don't think I could ever like, even if the actress tried really hard. The fact that they brushed off all of her bad parenting and just pretended she was this funny, quirky woman the entire time didn't help. If the show had actually let her own up to her actions, then I probably would like her and appreciate her more. As it is, because they didn't, she's definitely in the top three of worst characters on this show. 

[whateverhappened]

Quote

 I could never be a Lorelai/Luke shipper

Are we allowed to ask what you don't like about them? Please don't feel I'm putting you on the spot! Not judging AT all, I'm just honestly curious. Different characters and ships resonate with all of us in different ways, and that's what makes fandom fun :) 

 

Quote

There's a real bias against characters who have money that really makes me wonder about ASP

And her portrayal of people with money and the divisions among socioeconomic classes is so exaggerated, like it's based off the Richie Rich cartoon rather than modern day reality. Her portrayal of men and romantic relationships also makes me wonder a bit about ASP's personal experiences to be honest. 

[whateverhappened]

Quote

Liz is one character that I don't think I could ever like, even if the actress tried really hard. The fact that they brushed off all of her bad parenting and just pretended she was this funny, quirky woman the entire time didn't help. If the show had actually let her own up to her actions, then I probably would like her and appreciate her more. As it is, because they didn't, she's definitely in the top three of worst characters on this show. 

This is such an excellent point. At least with her husband it feels like we're supposed to think he's annoying.  It seems we're supposed to think Liz is adorable, but I find every minute she's on screen unbearable. I haven't liked the actress much in other roles either, but I think the way she's written is more to blame than the casting. Like a lot of Gilmore Girls characters, she not only doesn't grow but seems to actually regress in later seasons. Not to be a Luke apologist, but I also really hate the way she treats him. She takes such constant advantage of him. Sometimes I amuse myself by thinking of how my own brother would react if I suddenly adopted Liz's mindset and behavior. It would not go over well. 

Season 4 is my second favorite season of the series and one that I can rewatch straight through without skipping any full episodes, but the introduction of Liz and TJ is one main reason why I'd rank it behind S1.  The other has to do with the return of Dean, who I didn't dislike the first time around but who really should have stayed offscreen after Chicken or Beef. 

I know many think S4 was boring, but Lorelai finally opening the inn is literally one of my favorite things about the whole series, and my possibly unpopular opinion is that I would rather watch Rory struggling to adjust to Yale as we saw during S4 than suddenly become a Life and Death Brigade hanger on any day. I actually liked her S4 arc more than what we saw from her in S2 and S3, which I'm guessing might be unpopular? She wasn't always likable, but it made sense to me and felt relatable. I could have handled her rebelling and experimenting in the fifth and sixth seasons, but they did it in a way that never felt true to her established character to me, and I don't believe for a nanosecond that she'd suddenly enjoy floating around various parties with people like Logan and his idiotic friends. 

[ghoulina]

14 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Heh. I can usually never tell any of the LDB members apart from each other, so it took me a full minute to separate Finn from Colin. Finn's the Australian, right? 

Haha, yes. There's also Robert, who Rory went to the Quentin Tarantino party with. I kind of liked him as well. 

[hippielamb]

On 1/31/2017 at 6:26 PM, Lady Calypso said:

Heh. I can usually never tell any of the LDB members apart from each other, so it took me a full minute to separate Finn from Colin. Finn's the Australian, right? 

 

Lol yes. Finn is the handsome, flirty one. The one who hits on every woman he meets. 

 

On 1/31/2017 at 6:27 PM, whateverhappened said:

Are we allowed to ask what you don't like about them? Please don't feel I'm putting you on the spot! Not judging AT all, I'm just honestly curious. Different characters and ships resonate with all of us in different ways, and that's what makes fandom fun :) 

And her portrayal of people with money and the divisions among socioeconomic classes is so exaggerated, like it's based off the Richie Rich cartoon rather than modern day reality. Her portrayal of men and romantic relationships also makes me wonder a bit about ASP's personal experiences to be honest. 

Indeed. I always gravitate towards 'ships that are more playful and flirty. The first episode I ever saw was Lorelai's bachelorette party in season 2, and her flirty banter with Christopher definitely got my attention. 

I am rewatching Sex and the City and there's a couple on there that makes me smile. A good friend of mine loves Luke and Jess on GG. But to me, those guys are way too moody and intense. I'm not a Luke fan. His negavity and anger issues are red flags to me. I realise the majority of fans don't feel the same. We are supposed to like him. I just don't. 

It makes me wonder why she has this bias against people who come from wealth. There's this theme of middle class = good, wealthy = bad. 

9 hours ago, ghoulina said:

Haha, yes. There's also Robert, who Rory went to the Quentin Tarantino party with. I kind of liked him as well. 

I liked him too. He was pretty upfront about what he was looking for. 

[whateverhappened]

Playing those fun games in other threads reminded me of other unpopular opinions I have! If any aspiring fanfiction authors hang out here, I would highly recommend the questions and responses in the Would You Rather thread if you're ever short on ideas and inspiration. 

One is that I loved Tana, Rory's freshman year suitemate, and would have loved to see her stay friends with Rory throughout the rest of the show. 

This one may get me kicked out of here or at least sent for a mandatory psych evaluation, but I have a soft place in my heart for Dean.  He's not the most dynamic and interesting character in the world and does have some of that surly moodiness and tendency towards jelousy that the Palladinos like to give to most of their male characters, but at times I actually like him. I even feel sympathy for him during a lot of the Jess saga. I've been there, when you know someone you love is pulling away so you cling more desperately and then of course the other person just wants to pull even further away. I'm not defending all of his reactions, but I don't get the abusive vibe from him that many others do. Even when I don't like Dean much, he just doesn't have much of a negative impact on the show for me. That's why I would keep Rory's relationship with Dean, even the worst parts of it, over her relationship with Logan. Logan's presence impacted the show in a more significant and negative way for me. I know that's unpopular and understand why. FWIW, I wish I could like Logan more than I do. Something about him and his friends just really turns me off, and it's not that they happen to be from wealthy families. 

I understand why Lorelai preferred Dean to Jess. I grew to enjoy Jess as a character, but if I were a mother, I would feel more at ease with my daughter dating Dean as well and think Lorelai had some misgivings about Jess that were very fair and valid. 

In the first two seasons, I enjoy Dean more than Max. Something about Max really rubs me the wrong way, and I usually love scholarly types. He just seems pushy and cocky to me and tends to condescend to Lorelai. I love season 1, but the two of them getting engaged just after getting back together as a supposed solution for their problems bothers me so much. Not that the show always takes engagements and marriage very seriously anyway! 

I think Luke never felt good enough for Lorelai, and incidents like the debacle that took place at Emily and Richard's vow renewal and a few other points during the series tapped into and confirmed his worst fears and feelings of inadequacy. I also had the sense that he worried the sudden appearance of a daughter no one knew he had would mean that Lorelai no longer wanted to tie herself to him. I'm not excusing how Luke deals with conflict and agree that he could benefit from less of an emotional temper and more direct communication! But to me there are explanations for a lot of his issues, even if they don't count as valid excuses. Beneath his bluster, I always felt like Luke had pretty low self esteem and it came through during their relationship. 

This thread is cathartic! I hope nothing I said above offended anyone. It's really wonderful to be able to talk about the show with people who are so intelligent and open to all points of view. 

Edited February 2, 2017 by whateverhappened

[Kohola3]

Not offended in the least, whateverhappened.  You and I definitely on the same page with Rory's boyfriends!  I thought Dean was adorable and a great first boyfriend.  Any high school kid willing to wear tails and white gloves for his girlfriend is a keeper in my book. And if I had a daughter I would certainly give the side eye to Jesse - and show Logan the door.

[Crs97]

16 minutes ago, whateverhappened said:

I think Luke never felt good enough for Lorelai, and incidents like the debacle that took place at Emily and Richard's vow renewal and a few other points during the series tapped into and confirmed his worst fears and feelings of inadequacy. I also had the sense that he worried the sudden appearance of a daughter no one knew he had would mean that Lorelai no longer wanted to tie herself to him. I'm not excusing how Luke deals with conflict and agree that he could benefit from less of an emotional temper and more direct communication! But to me there are explanations for a lot of his issues, even if they don't count as valid excuses. Beneath his bluster, I always felt like Luke had pretty low self esteem and it came through during their relationship. 

I totally agree with this!  I am actually trying to remember all of Luke's backstory so please feel free to correct or add anything.  His mom died early.  I got the feeling that his dad was a quiet, stoic man who worked and not much else and his uncle was completely anti-social.  I got the feeling that Luke was left to pick up the pieces at home, and his younger sister is flighty and gets pregnant early with Jess.  My guess is that Luke felt like he failed her.  We know he was a good athlete at school, and I thought we found out he had good grades.  Do we know if he attended college?   We know his dad dies and he ends up staying in the town and changing his dad's hardware store into a diner.  We know he feels like a failure with Jess.  We know he is in love with Lorelai way before she is.  We know that her parents make it clear he is a failure and not good enough for Lorelai for just having a diner and being content with that.  We know he had several relationships that ended badly.  We know he has a long-lost daughter, and he could easily infer that she didn't tell him she was pregnant because they didn't need him.  I thought he was a heap of insecurity, which crystallized with his comment to her in the grocery store that now that she had Christopher he would just go back to being the guy who served her coffee.

Someone should have insisted that he attend therapy.

[Anela]

I liked Tana, and Janet, and would have liked to have seen more of them, too. 

[HeySandyStrange]

22 minutes ago, Anela said:

I liked Tana, and Janet, and would have liked to have seen more of them, too. 

I liked them, though I originally hoped that by virtue of Tana being a actual genius and not just a bright harder worker like Rory and Paris that she'd be something of an academic rival to them. It would've been fun to explore, through her, the fact that Rory and Paris went from being big fish in a small pond to small fish in a big pond. Other then that complaint, she was a fun character.

I loved that Janet wasn't some vapid pretty jock stereotype and that she wasn't afraid to give it right back to Paris. I'm (unpopularly) not the hugest fan of Paris so anyone who could put her in her place was okay by me.

2 hours ago, whateverhappened said:

This one may get me kicked out of here or at least sent for a mandatory psych evaluation, but I have a soft place in my heart for Dean.  He's not the most dynamic and interesting character in the world and does have some of that surly moodiness and tendency towards jelousy that the Palladinos like to give to most of their male characters, but at times I actually like him. I even feel sympathy for him during a lot of the Jess saga. I've been there, when you know someone you love is pulling away so you cling more desperately and then of course the other person just wants to pull even further away. I'm not defending all of his reactions, but I don't get the abusive vibe from him that many others do.

I don't see Dean's behavior as abusive so much as the usual hormonal, reactionary behavior of an inexperienced teenager. I also see Jess's behavior in that vein, with the added nuance of a chaotic childhood. If they were adults then it would be more worrisome, but otherwise they both seemed to have grown out of some of their worst immature behavior.  But I always liked Dean (will follow you to the psych ward :) and felt that a lot of his actions boiled down bad writing. The worst thing about Dean to me was that they kept him around as a plot device instead of letting him gracefully retire to non-Gilmore land, like after he dumped Rory for the second time.

[whateverhappened]

Quote

I originally hoped that by virtue of Tana being a actual genius and not just a bright harder worker like Rory and Paris that she'd be something of an academic rival to them. It would've been fun to explore, through her, the fact that Rory and Paris went from being big fish in a small pond to small fish in a big pond.

These threads have given me about a billion ideas I'd love to incorporate into fanfics, and now this is one of them. Many people I know claim S4 is the series' most boring season, so it may be unpopular that I find S4 the most interesting to analyze and explore in posts and in fanfiction, both in terms of what actually took place and what potentially could have been. 

Quote

 But I always liked Dean (will follow you to the psych ward :)

Good, because I need to room with someone who likes rewatching Gilmore Girls as much as I do!

Quote

I'm (unpopularly) not the hugest fan of Paris

Like Emily, she gets praised a lot for saying and doing some things that I personally find unnecessarily cruel and borderline insane. I find them both interesting and entertaining characters, but tbh I prefer them in slightly smaller doses and, unpopularly, doubt very much that I would like either Paris or Emily at all in real life. Even taking into account how much Gilmore Girls exaggerates certain character moments for comedic effect, Emily and Paris would horrify and terrify me if I actually knew them. 

Edited February 2, 2017 by whateverhappened

[ghoulina]

I don't really see Dean as abusive either. I think he was actually a pretty damn good boyfriend, until his girl started getting chummy with Jess. That's when he got really clingy and insecure. I can't say I completely blame him. Plus, he was young and teenagers aren't known for being calm and rational. I do think he had kind of an asshole side, because he did publicly break up with her twice. But she kind of took advantage of him a lot of the time, I thought. 

I just really lost a lot of respect for Dean when he cheated on his wife. Lindsey wasn't perfect, but she seemed to really want to try. When she successfully made the pot roast, right after her husband cheated on her, my heart broke for that woman. 

He wasn't my favorite guy on the show, but not a horrible cretin either. 

[JayInChicago]

non-sequitur but anyone who comes in pairs in this show I can't keep apart (outside of romantic pairs.)

i don't know which is Colin and which finn

i often forget who is Madeline and who is Louise unless I am directly watching a scene containing them

i certainly don't know the season 7 friends apart. I know one is Olivia.

whew, I feel better having admitted that. Even real life pop culture twins confuse me like Tegan and Sara or Jonathan and Drew Scott.

[hippielamb]

On 2/2/2017 at 0:34 PM, Kohola3 said:

Not offended in the least, whateverhappened.  You and I definitely on the same page with Rory's boyfriends!  I thought Dean was adorable and a great first boyfriend.  Any high school kid willing to wear tails and white gloves for his girlfriend is a keeper in my book. And if I had a daughter I would certainly give the side eye to Jesse - and show Logan the door.

Plus, he built her a car! How many girls can say that? He really was the perfect high school boyfriend. I can totally see why Lorelai preferred him over Jess. 

2 hours ago, JayInChicago said:

non-sequitur but anyone who comes in pairs in this show I can't keep apart (outside of romantic pairs.)

i don't know which is Colin and which finn

i often forget who is Madeline and who is Louise unless I am directly watching a scene containing them

i certainly don't know the season 7 friends apart. I know one is Olivia.

whew, I feel better having admitted that. Even real life pop culture twins confuse me like Tegan and Sara or Jonathan and Drew Scott.

It took me forever to tell the difference between Madeline and Louise. The young woman that plays Louise looks like a Madeline to me, (probably cause I know a pretty blonde who is a Madeline). Finn and Colin was easy for me. Colin in the jerk, Finn is the flirt. 

[whateverhappened]

Thanks to every single one of you for being so welcoming to me! I have a bunch more unpopular opinions swirling around my overcaffeinated brain. :)

I like Season 7. Not as much as S1-S5, but more than S6 and the revival. 

I would personally take the friendship Rory has with Lane over the one she has with Paris any day, though of course Paris can be very entertaining to watch.  

I love Lorelai to the point where she's one of my favorite characters in all of fiction. It's almost how many of us feel about a family member, which makes sense since I've spent almost as much time watching these Gilmore Girls characters as I have with my real relatives. I never stop loving and standing by Lorelai even when she's driving me crazy. She's got serious, deep, borderline tragic flaws, but unlike most I think her strengths usually outnumber them. I'll admit that I sometimes even find her inspiring. She's often wrong, but I can usually see where her character flaws and mistakes stem from. She always cares and tries and has a really unique spirit.

Emily is someone I enjoy watching and also find interesting but have a much harder time sympathizing with. Maybe it's because I had an Emily in my life, so her flaws probably strike a nerve with me more than Lorelai's do. 

As someone alluded to about a page ago, Lorelai knows she's odd and a little 'crazy' and ranges from flaunting that to feeling badly about it to just accepting it. She can be a broken and insecure mess, yet has a good heart, is smarter and more accomplished than many people think, and comes through when it matters. All that connects with me. Even though I'm a lot like the Rory of the show's first few seasons, tbh Lorelai is more interesting and lovable to me. Even when the babbling becomes obnoxious and she's making cringey choices with regard to men!   

I always see Lorelai described as an extrovert while Rory is thought to be very introverted. While that's true in a lot of ways, I think Lorelai is actually an extroverted introvert - she's very talkative, friendly and sociable on the surface, but when it comes down to it she trusts and is close to very few people, keeps most of her deeper thoughts and feelings to herself - and sometimes even from herself - and very often chooses to spend time on her own, hanging out by herself and just generally doing things solo and independently. This gets to part of why I feel like she and Luke get each other and have more in common than it first appears, but I've rambled enough about this for now! Maybe that's why I love Lorelai more than most do - we both ramble ad nauseam. :) 

Rory is just the opposite to me, a secretly extroverted introvert. She really does enjoy social events and craves new experiences and adventures more than it might seem even if she sometimes waits for a stronger personality to push her in that direction. 

Edited February 4, 2017 by whateverhappened

[JaggedLilPill]

Glad you feel welcomed @whateverhappened :) 

I too have a soft spot for Dean. That scene when he's sitting on the steps of their house and it's becoming clear to him that Rory likes Jess always breaks my heart. Granted Dean made frustrating mistakes, but I always thought he was a good guy.

I like your analysis of Lorelai as an extroverted introvert. I would agree with that. 

[Mick Lady]

Diving in! I hang on Supernatural, but have always loved the Gilmore Girls! Even got my husband Mick hooked on it!

I have UP's galore! First off, on multiple rewatches, I really don't like Lorelai. She is too self-centered, and her endless  quips drive me nuts! She's just not that clever. I did love her with Digger though, but I also love the actor, so that might have influenced me. But Digger, to me, just seemed to "get her"

I love Kirk, and Taylor, and Mrs. Kim is my favorite character!

Have I pissed off enough of you?

Oh, if that isn't enough, I adore Logan! He always supported Rory, and encouraged her in her career.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Mick Lady
I love Logan

[Taryn74]

24 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

First off, on multiple rewatches, I really don't like Lorelai. She is too self-centered, and her endless  quips drive me nuts! She's just not that clever.

Hee!  Right there with you, for the most part.  On paper, at least.  LG manages to make her tolerable, but in all honesty she can kinda be a terrible person.

25 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

I love Kirk, and Taylor, and Mrs. Kim is my favorite character!

Taylor drives me insane (though I understand the necessity of the town having a Taylor) but I share the Kirk and Mrs. Kim love.

26 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

Oh, if that isn't enough, I adore Logan!

Here is where we part ways.  Heh.  (Okay I did like S7 Logan quite a bit, but it took a while to get me there and I was back to hating him in the revival.)

[Mick Lady]

14 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

Hee!  Right there with you, for the most part.  On paper, at least.  LG manages to make her tolerable, but in all honesty she can kinda be a terrible person.

Taylor drives me insane (though I understand the necessity of the town having a Taylor) but I share the Kirk and Mrs. Kim love.

Here is where we part ways.  Heh.  (Okay I did like S7 Logan quite a bit, but it took a while to get me there and I was back to hating him in the revival.)

Yeah, the revival ruined the character, and that's a shame! I also don't get Rory in the revival, did they want to make her so unlikeable?

I live in a small town. We have a Taylor, and he's adored here! We don't take him too seriously though. But he's a kick, and honestly cares about the town.

[whateverhappened]

I love Mrs. Kim too. Not saying I would have loved being raised by her, but she's a goodhearted woman who loves her child and entertains me every time she's on screen. And is it unpopular to love Gypsy? And the town's reverend and rabbi as well? I wanted less of most of the townies but more of them! 

From what I've seen, I don't think disliking Lorelai is unpopular. Tbh, I feel like a freak for still loving her despite seeing over and over again just how flawed she is. And for still shipping Luke x Lorelai forever even though at times the writers seemed to like them a lot less than fans did.  

One general UO I think I forgot to include is that Gilmore Girls is still my very favorite show. Not even S6 or the revival can extinguish my love for it.  Like Lorelai herself, there's so much to dislike it and criticize about GG, but it still owns my heart. 

[Taryn74]

27 minutes ago, whateverhappened said:

And is it unpopular to love Gypsy? And the town's reverend and rabbi as well?

As far as I know, everyone loves Gypsy ;) and the other two as well.

[shron17]

4 hours ago, whateverhappened said:

One general UO I think I forgot to include is that Gilmore Girls is still my very favorite show.

I'll second this.  And expand it to say I'd still much rather see episodes written by the Palladino's than by anyone else, despite their assorted quirks/faults.  To me, season 7 just isn't the same show, but like an alt-universe Gilmore Girls.

Related to that, I'm glad to have AYITL and will happily watch more if they want to write it.  Either way, I'm glad we got what was to me a more fulfilling ending than Bon Voyage.

Last one, I really like Summer.  Yes, the musical is long but I still enjoy it mostly (probably because I love Sutton Foster and could watch her in just about anything). I thought both of the leads played it just right.  I enjoy the GG character's expression, especially Taylor watching them act what he wrote.  Somehow it makes perfect sense that he's a frustrated (bad) playwright.

15 hours ago, Mick Lady said:

We have a Taylor, and he's adored here! We don't take him too seriously though. But he's a kick, and honestly cares about the town.

I love Taylor too!  Sure, he's annoying but he serves the town well.  I don't think Stars Hollow fully appreciated everything he does until Jackson took over in season 5.

[whateverhappened]

Stars Hollow would barely function without Taylor! 

I've come across some mentions of Secrets and Loans as one of the worst episodes of the series, so my UO is that I actually love that episode. It's always a little cringey when Gilmore Girls tries to tackle financial issues of any kind, but there are a lot of great moments in that one.  Including the LL scene that is now my profile picture. :) 

[shron17]

2 minutes ago, whateverhappened said:

I've come across some mentions of Secrets and Loans as one of the worst episodes of the series, so my UO is that I actually love that episode.

I don't care for parts of it, but there is lots of good including but not limited to the opening musical interlude, LL's 2 scenes, and Mrs. Kim chasing Rory away with the hose.  Oh, and Jackson's pajamas.  It's impossible for me to completely diss any episode from seasons 1-6--there are always good parts.  And yes, I even mean AVV.

[Taryn74]

1 hour ago, shron17 said:

And yes, I even mean AVV.

What?!?  o.o

Just kidding.  I think my UO is that I actually liked 'Rory cooking' in AVV.  I thought it was cute and was intrigued with the idea of her being good at something that Lorelai has never had an aptitude for, like, ever.

[shron17]

I mostly liked LL's scenes in the bedroom, especially the morning one.  Even more unpopular, I like their walk on the beach with Luke grumbling about the sewage and the high real estate taxes and Stan the raccoon.  I can appreciate that he felt uncomfortable and was being  honest about his feelings; I also appreciate that as soon as he realized he was upsetting Lorelai later that afternoon he changed his attitude.  When they went back to Stars Hollow they both fell back into the same unhealthy patterns.

Edited February 5, 2017 by shron17

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

I watched Winter again today and it wasn't as bad as I've convinced myself it was. At least aesthetically. Luke was almost unrecognizable with the hair implants but I thought Scott looked really good. As did Kirk. Alexis looked really good and sounded so mature and so poised? I hated how she slouched and spoke (for the most part)  during the OS. She's finally acting like I expected someone with Rory's background, despite the Hallow, to behave. I loved her outfits too. I want those boots she had on when she went with Paris to look for her lucky dress. 

I hate that I wasn't as impressed with Lauren. I hate myself for even feeling this way, but her face was too distracting for me. Whatever she did, I hops didn't cause any permeant damage. 

Storywise, I liked how casual Rory/Lane and Paris/Rory were. Despite all the traveling she does, it was apparent that she was still close to her two childhood friends. Despite the mention of a Didi whom she stayed with when in London (LIES), I am like her in that I haven't made many friends since my college college years because I've gathered all the friends I need for life, and I'm content with co-workers and acquittances.  

Re-watching Winter, it is clearer that she's been quite successful in the last few years. She was being pursued by Sandy Says for one. But there were other clues as well. Although it fell through, Alex Kingston's character that was depicted to be Paris on steroids, chose her to co-auther with. She also had the interview with Conde Nast that they kept pushing back. I got the feeling they pursued her.There was also mention of articles she's written. It is just that the show dropped it and went full on flailing after that initial introduction. It wasn't enough to fill the gap making her success easy to dismiss.

On the personal front, Paul was a joke. Simple. Everyone but he was in on it. I guess we weren't to make too much of it like the Kirks and Taylors the show. Until recently, I haven't realized how dark ASP's idea of comedy was. Kirk, if he's take seriously is something scary. The same goes with the idea of Paul. With Rory leading the pack, everyone that was in o that joke looks .... yikes. I did like how attentive was she to Emily. Kelly Bishop looked too fragile throughout the Revival IMO. She looked so small on the couch with Lorelai at the therapy session. 

Although it was an introduction to Paris and what she's been up to, what I hated the most about Winter was the surrogate story. I am sorry, but Luke asking if he as to sleep with these women? Did he turn into Zach when we weren't looking. I hate Zach for Lane because I think she's been saddled with a brainless twit form life. I also hated how Paris talked about the women as if they were breeding mares. I enjoy Paris but that statement isn't far from her character. I still hated it. Next was Lorelai's speech at Richard's funeral. Just no.

[scarynikki12]

Regarding Dean, the example often given of his clingy/potentially abusive personality is him calling Rory over and over. Other than that one season 2 episode where he acknowledges that she likes Jess, I didn't see a problem with that. Teenagers call each other constantly. My besties and I were calling each other that much and the various boyfriends did too. With cell phones being so common, they now text each other as nauseum but it's still over and over. And it isn't limited to teens. My boss and her husband call/text each other throughout the day over trivial stuff and they aren't an anomaly. 

Other than that one episode where it was problematic on purpose, I don't see anything wrong with Dean calling a lot. The weird thing is that Rory wasn't doing the same. 

[Lady Calypso]

3 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

Regarding Dean, the example often given of his clingy/potentially abusive personality is him calling Rory over and over. Other than that one season 2 episode where he acknowledges that she likes Jess, I didn't see a problem with that. Teenagers call each other constantly. My besties and I were calling each other that much and the various boyfriends did too. With cell phones being so common, they now text each other as nauseum but it's still over and over. And it isn't limited to teens. My boss and her husband call/text each other throughout the day over trivial stuff and they aren't an anomaly. 

Other than that one episode where it was problematic on purpose, I don't see anything wrong with Dean calling a lot. The weird thing is that Rory wasn't doing the same. 

I didn't think that Dean calling obsessively was a big deal because they only made it a big deal in one episode. My main issue with Dean has always been his jealousy issues. Before Jess, it was Tristan. I mean, Tristan was being an ass with Dean in that season 1 episode, but it was just a small foreshadow of what was to come with Dean. I don't think they knew back then that Rory/Dean would have serious problems in season 2, at least not to the extent that they did, but I think they kind of built upon that in later seasons. Dean never seemed comfortable when it came to other guys in Rory's life. Even the few that she had in her life, Dean often reacted with anger and immediate assumptions instead of trusting his girlfriend. Granted, Jess was an ass and Dean had every right to be wary of him. But Dean often displayed not just jealousy issues, but possessive behaviour with Rory. I can't help but think about how Dean and Rory met, and how he told her that he had been watching her for weeks. Creepy yet mildly innocent, but just somewhat alarming behaviour, especially when they kept inserting these little problems into their relationship (see: the episode where Rory is volunteering to put it on her extra-curriculars and Dean got pissed that he couldn't spend some time with Rory; innocent from the looks of it, but just another tick to his behaviour).

But he did end up growing by the revival so I like adult Dean a lot better than teenage Dean. Much like I like adult Jess more than teenage Jess. 

[Taryn74]

Yeah, to me it's not just that he calls her a lot (because that is "normal") it's just that I always got the impression that if she was too busy to talk or had something going on with school or whatever, that he pouted and got mad.  She was always trying to pacify him, it seemed.  ("I just don't want to be in a fight with Dean."  How many times did we hear that?)  THAT's the flag raiser to me.

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

often displayed not just jealousy issues, but possessive behaviour with Rory.

The worst was when he stood around skulking when she and the others were trying to practice for the Romeo & Juliet play, and then threw a fit when she asked him to leave, because he was jealous about Tristan being there.  For G-d's sake, jackass, that was going to be 50% of not only HER final grade, but everybody who was there who didn't have anything to do with your little temper tantrum.  Get over yourself.

Ugh.  I forget sometimes how much I hate Dean.  Heh.

[Guest]

My UO on Rory/Dean is that I think in Season 2 she was equally responsible for a lot of their problems.  In a lot of the episodes, he was the one out of line (though in most of them, I would say normal teenage ways and not abusive ways) but in many of them, I think she was completely inconsiderate.  Hammers and Veils is one example - they had standing plans and she decided to blow them off to plan her extra-curricular activities.  Yes, it was important to her and he could have been more supportive, but being blown off last minute by your girlfriend so she could make plans for her future at the last minute would have been really hurtful to Dean.

[Taryn74]

2 hours ago, deaja said:

but in many of them, I think she was completely inconsiderate.

I can agree with that as well, heh.

Edit - And in my opinion, she was extremely inconsiderate in her relationship with Jess.  I borderline hate her for the way she treated him in Swan Song, and in Face-Off too.

Edited February 7, 2017 by Taryn74

[ghoulina]

5 hours ago, deaja said:

Yes, it was important to her and he could have been more supportive, but being blown off last minute by your girlfriend so she could make plans for her future at the last minute would have been really hurtful to Dean.

I agree with this. It sometimes seemed like she was just marking time with him until she went to college. He even asked her what happens in their future and she hadn't really considered it. Much like Lorelai hadn't really considered her future with Max. 

[whateverhappened]

I'm a little nervous about posting this one. Please know that I really don't want to offend Jess and literati fans! 

I always seem to remember the Rory x Jess relationship as better than it was. I recently saw most of S3 again and in my very unpopular opinion, I think even Rory's relationship with Dean was better. Don't worry - I'm not counting whatever that was she had with Dean for the first part of Season 5 when I type that :) I was struck by just how bad Rory and Jess were at communicating about everything, even basic information. It's even worse than we see with other couples on this show and worse than most other people their age. I see why people think Rory was more herself with Jess, but I feel like she seemed on edge around him a lot. There was very little stability and openness in their relationship and deep down they both knew it. I mentioned this elsewhere, but Jess's constant rudeness and not wanting to do anything ever attitude is a little more extreme and exhausting than I had recalled. This is such a minor example, but he's such a jerk about and at the winter carnival in That'll Do Pig. Dean's sister Clara is annoying, but who is that openly awful to a little kid? I get why Jess didn't feel comfortable in Stars Hollow and agree the town is sometimes not fair to him. He just takes the 'tude too far for me. 

The ongoing threats between Dean and Jess throughout Season 3 do nothing to endear me to either character. I'd forgotten the times that they have these weird threatening exchanges and talk about Rory like a stolen piece of property they're both scheming to steal back rather than a person who made choices. Neither guy comes off well, and it's such needless tension that almost never amounts to anything anyway. 

Not trying to put down Jess. I do think Rory and Jess's feelings were real and they certainly had a ton of chemistry. He's far from the only character whose less lovely traits are too exaggerated by the Palldinos and Jess x Rory are one of many pairs on this and other shows who seemed happier before they officially became a couple. It's just that I had remembered liking Jess and Jess x Rory more than I did this time around. That's one really interesting facet about rewatching the show and talking about it here; my perspectives change a lot, which is a polite way of saying I'm a fickle idiot who keeps changing my mind about certain characters and relationships. :) 

Edited February 10, 2017 by whateverhappened

[Guest]

I feel they told us about Rory and Jess' relationship and connection instead of showing it. Weak storytelling. They weren't able to write it believably.

[whateverhappened]

I just realized another unpopular opinion now that I'm finally recovering from my acute bour of PRSS, Post-Revival Stress Syndrome. I could never truly dislike Rory. Part of me will always love her. I'm more like her, even the screwed up versions of her, than I would like to admit. I'm not making excuses for her at all. She's often awful - dangerously oblivious in ways that make her insensitive, passive aggressive, cluelessly entitled and a horrid decision maker. She was always that way and it just got worse as the series progressed, but there's this part of me that still sees great qualities in her too, or at least qualities that I happen to understand. I still connect with her and am guessing I always will, no matter how many character ruining revivals the secretly evil Palladinos throw our way. :)  

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

The TWoP recapper Pamy was unapologetic critical of Jess and ended some of her recaps with a warning to teens to never date a Jess. I am not sure, but I think she had her own Jess as a teen.

It is nice that he literally did a 180 the few times he returned, but it didn't change the fact that he was as mean as a snake for almost all of the time he was a real character, or that he treated Rory like shit during their brief time together. 

 

I can overlook all the teenage angst and find the character fascinating ( I don't because he swung from one extreme to the other with no in between) but supping him with Rory? That I don't get it. Not after that whatever you want to call it at Kyle's birthday party. I find it interesting that other characters are unapologetically criticized, but there are all these exclamations before he is critiqued. God forbid a bad word is said about that misunderstood teen turned Saint. 

Edited February 10, 2017 by Deputy Deputy CoS

[ghoulina]

I think the Jess-Rory bond/chemistry was great, but the actual relationship was horrible. If that makes any sense. And at the conclusion of the original series, I would have said he was still the best match for her. I think on paper they work better than Rory with any of the other guys. But at the time, no. It was no good. Jess, for one, was not in ANY place to be in a relationship. He was way too messed up in the head. And Rory was too used to having a pretty easy going, passive, doting boyfriend in Dean. She was a bit spoiled. It just didn't work. 

I think matured, gotten over his shit Jess would have been WONDERFUL with Rory. But she was head over heels about Logan by that point. 

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

1 hour ago, ghoulina said:

I think the Jess-Rory bond/chemistry was great, but the actual relationship was horrible. If that makes any sense. And at the conclusion of the original series, I would have said he was still the best match for her. I think on paper they work better than Rory with any of the other guys. But at the time, no. It was no good. Jess, for one, was not in ANY place to be in a relationship. He was way too messed up in the head. And Rory was too used to having a pretty easy going, passive, doting boyfriend in Dean. She was a bit spoiled. It just didn't work. 

I think matured, gotten over his shit Jess would have been WONDERFUL with Rory. But she was head over heels about Logan by that point. 

Chemistry is in the eye of the beholder. I did see lots of chemistry with TVD's Elena/Damon but I need than than to be on board a pair as a couple. I felt the initial chemistry between Rory and Jess until they actually got together. Again, the Kyle party scene was enough to revert any chemistry I felt they had in the past or present. That was the point of no return for me seeing them as a romantic couple.

I've heard about how great a couple they'd be with the new Jess but that might be from Jess' perceptive? Does who Rory is matter in this would be great match? Because by the time she was in her second year at Yale, even before she met Logan, she's been exposed to experiences that made her a different person than the one who briefly liked Jess. By the time Logan came along, Rory was into Richard/Emily world and would never had been able to hold unto a relationship with a Jess. After she's been with a partner who accepted every facet of her character and waited out her bad moments without judgment, Rory would not do well with a guy who only accept her as "good" and tells her "this is not you" when it is clearly her when she's not making acceptable choices.

She's been with a guy whom for over a decade have proven to be very dependable. New and improved Jess might be too, but given the experience she's had with him, I can see why he wouldn't appeal to her. Their shared past is a strike against them as a future couple IMO. If it isn't, current Jess has become her step-father's nephew. He's barely a friend to the grown up Rory. If after all these years they've only spoken once and wouldn't have seek each other out if he wasn't in town o family business, there would be no contact at all.

I need more than both being interested in literature to be convinced of what a great match they'd be in the future.  Because there is more to both Jess and Rory than literature. We know Rory already shares that with Logan and I can only hope that Jess would find someone with whom he'll have that in common with. 

Edited February 10, 2017 by Deputy Deputy CoS

[tarotx]

When I was watching the show in season 2-4, I felt Jess was just a ship block for both Lorelai&Luke as well as Rory&Dean. When Kyle's bedroom happened and he once again left with no word I had no idea how that ship was still the ship most fans were rooting to last. (This ship is the second biggest shipping base on the show behind Lorelai&Luke).  I felt Rory's phone call was the end of the ship but its popularity was still uber strong so, of course, it wasn't. I felt that was why they had Jess return in s4 just for Rory to say no when Jess said, 'Only say no if you mean it'. Rory clearly didn't want Jess. I especially thought that when Rory gave her Virginity to married Dean. It was the last knock for Jess and changed the Dean Dynamic. He was now the bad boy. But nope.

When Jess came back in season 6 he was used to cause issue within the Logan&Rory relationship but his time ended once again with Rory not choosing him. She point blank tells him that she was in love with Logan. But his fans felt that he was now the good guy, the Luke who would wait for Rory. I didn't see that. I clearly didn't know how to read tv shows and shipping.

In the revival, there is still nothing from Rory's end. But Jess is once again the person used to get her to where the fans want her (out of her career funk). And the LOOK after 4 years of not seeing her but then seeing her two times over a couple of months really felt like ship baiting to me. There was nothing singling a return to a relationship status for Rory&Jess until the look. I would think that his look and shrug was him realizing she was the girl that got away but now I know how shipping works. The door will always be left open to a Jess/Rory relationship until the final-final moments if he's not end game of course. 

[Enigma X]

I am a huge Jess fan partly because I detest Dean and Logan and don't think Jess was an overly great catch for Rory (and Rory was not a great catch for Jess either). With that said, I so wanted him to have moved on by the time of the Netflix series. I mean I don't want any sexual tension from Rory or Jess over what might've been. I am ok with them being very good friends that understand each other on a level that no one else can. This is what I was hoping for. Well, I can't have nice things in TV land ever though.

[Winter Rose]

I'm in full agreement on Rory/Jess buildup >>>>>> relationship but I don't think it was all on Jess. Obviously his shortcomings were more severe, and I will always maintain they were doomed by timing, but Rory drove me crazy too with all her complaining about Jess not being like Dean (which, duh!) and how Dean was the perfect first boyfriend. But what haunts me most about their relationship is wondering how much of it was influenced by the plans to get Jess off the show for that spinoff that never happened. Because of that, the end of season 3 will always ring hollow to me. I'm not saying Rory/Jess would've otherwise been a fairytale but I'll always be bitter to have never had a real chance to see what they could've been as a couple.

[Frelling Tralk]

16 hours ago, tarotx said:

When Jess came back in season 6 he was used to cause issue within the Logan&Rory relationship but his time ended once again with Rory not choosing him. She point blank tells him that she was in love with Logan. But his fans felt that he was now the good guy, the Luke who would wait for Rory. I didn't see that. I clearly didn't know how to read tv shows and shipping.

In the revival, there is still nothing from Rory's end. 

I totally agree. I really find it a bit puzzling just how big a fandom Rory and Jess have, and how many seem convinced that they're 'endgame', because really on paper they seem like the relationship that meant the least to Rory quite honestly, and that she found the easiest to move on from. Even with how badly it all ended with Dean first time around, she still tried a relationship with him again in season 4 and lost her virginity to him, and in the revival she is very nostalgic over what a perfect first boyfriend he was, and clearly still wonders sometimes what might have been. And it took her a long time to let go of Logan as well, ten years after the series ended we're shown that they still have an arrangment, and it's obviously painful for both of them to finally let go of the other. Whereas Jess is the one boyfriend of hers that she never slept with, and that she had no problem with letting go of after the relationship had run its course. I mean I'm not saying that there probably weren't still some lingering feelings there in season 4, but she very firmly says "no" when Jess pushes her to run away with him, and then ends up sleeping with Dean shortly afterwards. Hardly the actions of someone who was really torn by her feelings for Jess. Then in season 6 she apologises for only kissing Jess to make Logan jealous, and admits that she's in love with Logan. That's markedly different from how she remained hung-up on both Logan and Dean for some time after their initial relationship came to an end, and was drawn back into trying again, yet there's really no indictation that Rory has ever thought about giving it another go with Jess. In the revival she treats him more like an old friend that she's just happy to see again, rather than with the same wistfulness of past love that Dean and Logan get 

I guess that I'm just missing why the majority of the fandom seem to view Jess as Rory's "Luke", the one guy who will wait for her and will help her raise the kid, even though he's hardly even a regular presence in Star Hollows these days by all accounts, and any feelings there on Rory's end seem to be well and truly dead. 

[Sweet Tee]

I agree with all of you on Jess.  I was never interested in any of Rory's relationship but I think that she did have the most chemistry with Jess.  And maybe that's where most of the fans are coming from.  I've seen some fans seriously believe that Jess is the father of Rory's baby.  And...no. Not unless they completely pull that out of their ass because nothing at all suggested that.  And I agree that for all the 'Dean is abusive' accusations I've seen thrown his way, Jess was more or less terrible to Rory when they actually got together.  The scene in Kyle's bedroom was awful and I absolutely don't blame her for just washing her hands of him.  I know that Jess had a lot of problems and that's not made any easier by the fact that he was a teenager and their emotions are already kind of all over the place.  I definitely appreciate the way that he grew and that he seems to be a stable and decent guy.  But, he wasn't any good for Rory at that time.  Maybe he is now, but like others have said, Rory hasn't shown any interest in him since they broke up.  Perhaps it's because they spent so much time in seasons two and three on her crush on him that it seems like she'll always have feelings for him.  But, she hasn't in a long time.  When she's more wistful about Dean than she is about Jess, then the show has a long way to go in convincing me that she and Jess are endgame.

[Frelling Tralk]

I felt like Jess was Rory's bad boy phase in a way, that at 16 and 17 she was very attracted to how different he was from everyone else in Stars Hollow. It must have been an exciting change of pace to date a bit of a rule-breaker, and someone who was openly uncaring about what others thought of him, as opposed to being nagged by her mother on needing to treat Dean better, and what a nice young man he was. (Really it's the kiss of death passion-wise to have a parental figure get on that well with your boyfriend!) 

I agree that Rory and Jess did have great chemistry, but I never felt like their connection went all that much deeper. Other than them both sharing a love of reading, we really don't see them bonding all that much, and they were pretty dysfunctional when it came to actually communicating with one another. Jess never opened up with Rory about any of the very real problems he was facing, such as flunking out of school, or when his dad unexpectedly came to town, and it took Rory a long time of putting up with Jess not calling her to make plans before she finally unloads on him  

I felt like Jess being such a bad boyfriend was what helped Rory to outgrown her badboy phase actually, and realise that the reality of dating the rebellious newcomer to town never lived up to what she was fantasising about in season 2. Of course Jess has changed and grown up since then, but again I come back to the lack of indication that Rory even still feels the same way about him as she did when she was 17

[Catalpa]

I'm new here, but enjoying reading through all the threads and discussions.  I have two unpopular opinions: (1) I like Rory more in seasons 5-6 than in seasons 1-3 and (2) I'm not into Luke and Lorelai.

(1) With Rory, despite obvious giant mistakes and some regression (and felonies), I think she really came into her own and gained confidence to step out of her mom's shadow in seasons 5-6.  She gets stronger particularly with respect to her romantic relationships, which always makes me proud in a weird way when I re-watch.  In the first few seasons, she lets things happen to her.  Despite being blatantly interested in Jess for a whole year, she makes no moves and forces Dean to be the one to pull the trigger on the break-up.  She continues to be pretty mousey throughout her relationship with Jess; she never tells him off for the way he treats her until after he bolts for California.  And even in seasons 4 and early 5, she falls back in with Dean more because he is a safety net than because she has actual interest in him.  She then forces him to be the one to break up with her again outside her grandparents' house!  

But, with Logan, in Wedding Bell Blues, I love that she is the one to make the first move.  She goes after him, which shows real growth on her part. And even though she later acknowledges that it didn't work for her, she takes a leap and I think really believes it when she tells Logan initially that she wants something with "no strings attached."  The first time they have sex, she initiates it.  That early part of their relationship was actually remarkably sex-positive for this show, even if later they make her regret it and have her cry on the bathroom floor.  

Though they have their obvious problems, Rory does a decent job during their relationship of communicating with Logan about her feelings.  She tells him when the "no strings" arrangement isn't working for her; she is the first to say "I love you"; she tells him off in the moment (or right after the moment) when he is a jerk to Jess; she rightfully tells Logan that she can't tell him not to go to London.  Her passive-agressive moments (like after the bridesmaids) are fewer and farther between in these seasons, which is an improvement for her.  

She gets a lot of (very justified) crap for all the dumb stuff she does, but I do think this is at least one way that she becomes a better person as she grows up.

(2) As for Luke and Lorelai, their relationship never connected for me.  I liked the promise of their relationship much better than the actual relationship.  I think I was the only person in the world hoping for the very tiny chance that they would introduce a new love interest for Lorelai in the revival.  I knew the fans would revolt, but I was still hoping for a little something new for her.  Their communication is terrible (see above for how much I value communication) and I never bought their chemistry or that they could make it work with so little in common.  It seems like they might hold each other back more than make true partners for each other.  I don't think Digger was the one for her either, but I did enjoy their energy together.  They had fun, which is something we saw precious little of with Luke and Lorelai.  

[JayInChicago]

The revival made it a lot worse because given it was meant to be 9 years later, you do really wonder what the hell L and L talked about or did together during that long space. I bought their connection quite a bit in the original years, particularly before the proposal-no-sleep with Christopher. But their problems piled up and it was not resolved. 

[Katy M]

I haven't seen the revival so don't know what ended up happening with them, but I like Lane and Zach as a couple.  And I don't think they end up in a sexless marriage, just because it's never mentioned on the show again.

I don't think Lindsay is horrible person.  I think she and Dean married too early without enough forethought, but that's on both of them and not an excuse to cheat.

[Kohola3]

8 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't think Lindsay is horrible person.  I think she and Dean married too early without enough forethought, but that's on both of them and not an excuse to cheat.

I agree.  I think that ASP wrote her to be a greedy little shrew when, in reality, she was just an immature teen.  Her tantrums were certainly no excuse for Dean's infidelity.  But I think we were supposed to find that a justification.

[ghoulina]

If we were supposed to see it as a justification, it didn't work for me. One of the saddest moments of the show, IMO, was when Lindsey finally got that damn roast right and was so excited...and Dean looked all uncomfortable, because he was more worried about what was going on with the other woman than his own wife. 

They never should have gotten married, granted. Too young. Too rushed. And Lindsey definitely had her flaws. She was a bit selfish and needy. But hello, she was a teenager! In the end, I think she wanted to try to work on their marriage and Dean didn't. I think he was more wrong for marrying her, because he was clearly STILL hung up on Rory when they got married. That was just so wrong.