One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[elang4]

13 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

If we were supposed to see it as a justification, it didn't work for me. One of the saddest moments of the show, IMO, was when Lindsey finally got that damn roast right and was so excited...and Dean looked all uncomfortable, because he was more worried about what was going on with the other woman than his own wife. 

They never should have gotten married, granted. Too young. Too rushed. And Lindsey definitely had her flaws. She was a bit selfish and needy. But hello, she was a teenager! In the end, I think she wanted to try to work on their marriage and Dean didn't. I think he was more wrong for marrying her, because he was clearly STILL hung up on Rory when they got married. That was just so wrong.

I felt sorry for Lindsey as well. I mean she even made the effort with Rory after they got married. She was civil and chatted to her at the Dragonfly even though she was obviously sharing a moment with Dean at the time! There was no excuse for the cheating, none at all.

[KatWay]

I definitely think we were meant to feel sorry for Lindsey there. To be honest, their marriage always seemed like a plot device to me, because...why would Dean marry this girl straight out of high school when he'd spoken of going to college. Instead he was stuck working in construction. And did Lindsey not want to do anything other than being an 18-year old housewife? To a guy who was obviously still at least a little hung up on his ex? They hadn't even dated for very long. Not to mention she was upset about the long hours he was working, but since they were playing house how else would they have afforded that?

I think Dean would have wanted out of the marriage with or without Rory, he was stupid for going through with it and he seemed to consider it a mistake. The affair rushed things along but there was no happy ending for them either way.

[Anela]

I've just re-watched those episodes (or listened to them, as I was doing other things), and think that Dean was a right prick to Lindsey, and to Rory. First, he's sneaking around, ducking into corners to talk to Rory, going to her dorm room, or to pick her up when she needed a ride (and getting pissed off when Jess was there). Then he yells at Lindsey, for picking up his phone - and when he's feeling guilty about having cheated on Lindsey (and treated her almost the same way that Rory treated him when she was falling for Jess), he gets irritable with Rory, saying he doesn't want to parade their relationship around town, when she's just trying to find a place for them to spend time together.  After the party where Logan cheers her up (when her grandparents are trying to match-make), he blames her for that, too. Just walks away from her. 

[whateverhappened]

Has anyone here ever watched Parks & Recreation? It's a different type of show, but it includes some stuff about community, female empowerment, and getting along with people despite differences in personality, class, background and so on that reminds me a little of Gilmore Girls. It's possible that everything reminds me of Gilmore Girls, lol. I'm bringing it up because there's something about Andy x April that reminds me of Lorelai x Luke - an energetic, extroverted, sociable, fun loving and flightier person paired with a more reclusive, introverted, moodier, cynical yet very loyal and caring partner. There are some differences, and on Parks it's the female who's the introverted cynic, but the discussion here about LL sticks with me while I rewatch Parks because Parks did a much better job of showing how a couple's differences can be complemetary, how two very different people can balance out each other's flaws, challenge each other to change a little in positive ways and may turn out not to be that different beneath the surface. April x Andy connected beautifully despite their differences and their relationship was filled with passion and fun. They have realistic conflicts but never break up, learn to communicate and always clearly adore each other. Their differences become an asset in their relationship rather than a liability. It reaffirms how wonderfully I think LL could have been written, though I'm fast developing the opinion that the Palladinos are just not very adept at writing romance. I get why the general fan sentiment is against Daniel R., but I thought during his one season with the show he wrote and directed romance in a way that allowed couples to have moments of sweetness and fun and to show more affection than we got for most of the rest of the series.

 

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I'm new here, but enjoying reading through all the threads and discussions.  I have two unpopular opinions: (1) I like Rory more in seasons 5-6 than in seasons 1-3 and (2) I'm not into Luke and Lorelai.

(1) With Rory, despite obvious giant mistakes and some regression (and felonies), I think she really came into her own and gained confidence to step out of her mom's shadow in seasons 5-6.  She gets stronger particularly with respect to her romantic relationships, which always makes me proud in a weird way when I re-watch.  In the first few seasons, she lets things happen to her.  Despite being blatantly interested in Jess for a whole year, she makes no moves and forces Dean to be the one to pull the trigger on the break-up.  She continues to be pretty mousey throughout her relationship with Jess; she never tells him off for the way he treats her until after he bolts for California.  And even in seasons 4 and early 5, she falls back in with Dean more because he is a safety net than because she has actual interest in him.  She then forces him to be the one to break up with her again outside her grandparents' house!  

But, with Logan, in Wedding Bell Blues, I love that she is the one to make the first move.  She goes after him, which shows real growth on her part. And even though she later acknowledges that it didn't work for her, she takes a leap and I think really believes it when she tells Logan initially that she wants something with "no strings attached."  The first time they have sex, she initiates it.  That early part of their relationship was actually remarkably sex-positive for this show, even if later they make her regret it and have her cry on the bathroom floor.  

Though they have their obvious problems, Rory does a decent job during their relationship of communicating with Logan about her feelings.  She tells him when the "no strings" arrangement isn't working for her; she is the first to say "I love you"; she tells him off in the moment (or right after the moment) when he is a jerk to Jess; she rightfully tells Logan that she can't tell him not to go to London.  Her passive-agressive moments (like after the bridesmaids) are fewer and farther between in these seasons, which is an improvement for her.  

She gets a lot of (very justified) crap for all the dumb stuff she does, but I do think this is at least one way that she becomes a better person as she grows up.

 

As someone who's also still fairly new here, welcome! I hope you love it here as much as I do. I wanted to thank you for the above take on Rory. I'm in the group who often misses the Rory of earlier seasons, but it's interesting to think that she may have become more assertive and independent when it comes to romance, improving in at least that way while she seemed to regress in others, so I'll keep that in mind while I watch! 

The talk about Lindsay is reminding me of one of the show's worst tendencies. They try to make minor characters, especially those dating our main characters, less likable so that we're not supposed to mind when those minor characters are treated very poorly by Lorelai, Rory, Luke, Emily and the writing staff. The thing I hate about the bridesmaid nonsense in Season 6 isn't that Logan slept with people so soon after he and Rory broke it off. It's that Logan and the writers demeaned them as such ridiculous nonentities, scornfully referrting to them as 'Dipsy', Four Nose Jobs, Bubbles and the like. I get the point - those women meant nothing to Logan. Only our always special Rory does. :) But the implication always seems to be that our main characters are so superior to others that it really doesn't matter who else gets hurt, insulted, used or so on along the way to our characters getting what they want. As if Rory, Lorelai and sometimes Emily automatically deserve better treatment and outcomes than other 'types' of people.

The show sent the same type of message when it came to Jess and Shane and even Luke and Nicole. Shane was made out as 'trash' so that we'd root for Jess to be with the allegedly superior Rory and not care whether Shane ended up hurt along the way. Nicole was boring, snotty and suddenly a cheater, so now Luke ducking out of their relationship while it was still technically going on and not bothering to tell her he clearly did not want to be with her doesn't matter or ever need to be addressed because Nicole supposedly sucks. Paul and Odette now fall into this category as well.

I am explaining this so horrendously, but back when I started typing, I really did have some sort of point! :) 

Edited February 12, 2017 by whateverhappened

[whateverhappened]

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After the party where Logan cheers her up (when her grandparents are trying to match-make), he blames her for that, too. Just walks away from her. 

I actually thought the last disastrous chapter of Rory x Dean was similar to what Luke did to Nicole, with Rory passive aggressively backing out of the relationship without actually saying so and then getting to look like the innocent victim when Dean wakes up long enough to officially end the relationship. Rory and Luke get to look like the only maligned parties while Nicole and Dean are supposedly the bad guys for hurting them, but for me the reality was a lot more complicated.

The more I write about this show, I am REALLY leaning into that opinion that the Palldinos suck at writing romantic relationships!  

Edited February 12, 2017 by whateverhappened

[Katy M]

25 minutes ago, Anela said:

 After the party where Logan cheers her up (when her grandparents are trying to match-make), he blames her for that, too. Just walks away from her. 

First of all, Rory should have left the minute she found out what her grandparents were doing, assuming she wasn't boyfriend shopping. 

Second of all, it was her fault that she completely lost track of time and left Dean standing out in the driveway.  she knew he couldn't ring the bell.  Her grandparents hated him before he was married.

Third of all, the party was just the last straw.  Rory was always too busy for him, wasn't all that keen on eating day old subs in the back room at Dosey's, or whatever they were doing (honestly a bit fuzzy on this).

This relationship was not going to work and Dean was right to break it off.  Rory wasn't going to because how do you break up with someone when their marriage broke up because he cheated with you?  Actually, now that I think of it, I don't think Rory ever really broke up with anyone.  The first time she was with Dean, she didn't say I love you back and he broke up with her. IMO, that was when he was being a jerk.  Second time with Dean, she was mooning all over Jess until Dean got sick of it and broke up with her.  Jess left town without saying anything.  and, she did turn down Logan's marriage proposal, but I think she was still up for dating him, if he wanted to.

[Lady Calypso]

3 hours ago, whateverhappened said:

Nicole was boring, snotty and suddenly a cheater, so now Luke ducking out of their relationship while it was still technically going on and not bothering to tell her he clearly did not want to be with her doesn't matter or ever need to be addressed because Nicole supposedly sucks. Paul and Odette now fall into this category as well.

Heh, that sham of a marriage never worked. It felt very out of place and half the time, they seemed to forget that it was a thing. Luke had all this time to divorce her and he never did. It didn't help that we never saw her in season 4, not once (maybe once?) so really, it was just a whole convoluted mess. The only time I found it to be a positive was in A Family Matter, when Luke goes to Nicole's to let Jess get out from his car for the night. So the whole "Nicole is cheating on Luke" was really stupid because (a) We don't actually get any scene where Nicole shows up to confirm it, nor does Luke ever say that she confessed; and (b) Their marriage could have ended at any time in any non-chalant way. Instead, they chose to villainize Nicole when Luke had the choice for months to sign those papers. 

They never did villainize Paul, but he just became another Nicole before her cheating, which is a non-entity and useless to the entire arc and could have definitely been erased and nothing would have changed (except worse, because his non-entity was made into a joke). Odette is just there to make Rory/Logan worse. I feel bad for the woman, even if we don't know anything about her, because she gets saddled with Logan, his daddy issues, and Rory as the mistress. If there's another season of the revival, she's going to end up being The Worst just so Logan can remain somewhat sympathetic. Maybe; I don't really know what the Palladino's endgame is with Logan.

[Pete Martell]

I don't know if this is unpopular or not, but the po-faced tone that sometimes comes from the showrunners or whoever else directed at fans for being interested in Rory's love life annoys me. If they don't want people to focus on Rory's love life, then they sure didn't do much to give a reason for that in the revival. 

[tarotx]

48 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

....

They never did villainize Paul, but he just became another Nicole before her cheating, which is a non-entity and useless to the entire arc and could have definitely been erased and nothing would have changed (except worse, because his non-entity was made into a joke). Odette is just there to make Rory/Logan worse. I feel bad for the woman, even if we don't know anything about her, because she gets saddled with Logan, his daddy issues, and Rory as the mistress. If there's another season of the revival, she's going to end up being The Worst just so Logan can remain somewhat sympathetic. Maybe; I don't really know what the Palladino's endgame is with Logan.

 

2

Odette is maybe already the worst because she is an heiress named Odette. Money is evil on Gilmore Girls and both heiress and Odette implies or means "wealth".  Though she's probably really named for the good girl of Swan Lake, I still had to laugh when I was looking up the name Odette for a fan fiction I'm helping write (trying to find out what type of people her parents are by looking up the name they chose for their daughter).

Edited February 13, 2017 by tarotx

[shron17]

4 hours ago, Anela said:

I've just re-watched those episodes (or listened to them, as I was doing other things), and think that Dean was a right prick to Lindsey, and to Rory. First, he's sneaking around, ducking into corners to talk to Rory, going to her dorm room, or to pick her up when she needed a ride (and getting pissed off when Jess was there).

I always thought the key mistake Dean made was when he told Rory Lindsey didn't want him to talk to her anymore but he wasn't going to let that happen.  And Rory was an idiot for going along with it.  What did she think was going to happen?

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

This relationship was not going to work and Dean was right to break it off.  Rory wasn't going to because how do you break up with someone when their marriage broke up because he cheated with you? 

Another pivotal moment was in TATT when Rory asked Dean if he was going to break up with Lindsey if she hadn't found Rory's letter.  He assured her he was, but I think Rory knew then he was doing whatever was easy and not facing consequences.  I'm glad he seemed to have matured by the revival.

5 hours ago, KatWay said:

To be honest, their marriage always seemed like a plot device to me, because...why would Dean marry this girl straight out of high school when he'd spoken of going to college. Instead he was stuck working in construction.

There are definitely kids that age who's goal is to be in a committed relationship and start their own family.  For Dean, I think he proposed to Lindsey because he was trying to prove he was lovable.  And, a girl who valued family over career was a better fit for him.  But I think you're right, neither was very mature and their marriage probably wouldn't have lasted anyway.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

Heh, that sham of a marriage never worked. 

The same can be said about the Lindsey/Dean marriage but I feel it is unfair to Lindsay. I agree that she was the only victim in that debacle and regardless of how the show wanted viewers to feel about her, I also felt bad for her. The whole Dean/Lindsey/Rory triangle was one of the shows darkest storylines because the message it sent was all kinds of wrong for all the characters involved. Rory was obviously a home wrecker regardless of the strength/weakness of the marriage itself. Dean was not just a cheater, he was jerk to Lindsey. Which brings me to Lindsey. What would cause a lovely young girl, barely out of high school, to settle into a marriage with a cheating husband who was obviously rebounding from an ex? Then bend over backwards to please him when he started acting like a jerk to her? Shame on her parents for raising such a low self-esteem girl. I hope that marriage was an eye opener for her because someone with her personality was bound to be miserably in the future. 

Given the above, I was relieved when Rory became more and more immersed in her adult life which I attribute to her life at Yale and all the experience that came along after Dean round two.

I hold the unpopular opinion of preferring her post second breakup with Dean to the seasons 2/3/4 and the first half of season 5. The Dean/Jess triangle then Dean/Lindsey years did the character no favors IMO.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Deputy Deputy CoS

[whateverhappened]

@tarotx, please share that fanfic with us when you're done! 

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Money is evil on Gilmore Girls

LOL. I'm sure the Palldinos think they've given us a fair, revealing and nuanced look into issues of socioeconomic differences and how economic relaities inform who we are, but they're wrong. :) Many others have already covered this here and done it a lot better than I could, but almost everything about the way GG deals with class and finances is either so strangely exaggerated, inconsistent or inaccurate that the show may as well take place in a parallel universe. Ignoring the Palldinos' take on money has definitely increased my enjoyment of their show. 

Edited February 13, 2017 by whateverhappened

[slf]

I was always drawn to the fairytale aspects of GG so I can only really enjoy the show up until season three, though I rarely watch season two episodes. I love dark and complicated shows with unlikable characters but I liked GG best when it was a charming and upbeat show about a woman and her daughter trying and eventually succeeding. The women suffer on almost every show and often don't get to achieve their dreams so early GG was a breath of fresh air. I don't hate the later seasons and I appreciate that what I wanted the show to be is not what ASP wanted the show to be, tho.

Luke/Lorelai was my favorite potential pairing in the early seasons but by the time the show started putting them together romantically I was over them. I think that's the one pairing they should've prioritized and committed to; I'm not saying they should've been together by the end of the first season (where's the fun in that?) but maybe dating by the end of the second season.

Edited February 14, 2017 by slf

[Anela]

8 hours ago, Katy M said:

First of all, Rory should have left the minute she found out what her grandparents were doing, assuming she wasn't boyfriend shopping. 

Second of all, it was her fault that she completely lost track of time and left Dean standing out in the driveway.  she knew he couldn't ring the bell.  Her grandparents hated him before he was married.

Third of all, the party was just the last straw.  Rory was always too busy for him, wasn't all that keen on eating day old subs in the back room at Dosey's, or whatever they were doing (honestly a bit fuzzy on this).

This relationship was not going to work and Dean was right to break it off.  Rory wasn't going to because how do you break up with someone when their marriage broke up because he cheated with you?  Actually, now that I think of it, I don't think Rory ever really broke up with anyone.  The first time she was with Dean, she didn't say I love you back and he broke up with her. IMO, that was when he was being a jerk.  Second time with Dean, she was mooning all over Jess until Dean got sick of it and broke up with her.  Jess left town without saying anything.  and, she did turn down Logan's marriage proposal, but I think she was still up for dating him, if he wanted to.

I don't care enough to argue. I also would have left, as soon as I found out what they had planned, but she made a commitment to them, as well - to be there every Friday night. I always thought that's why she didn't leave. Dean, being an adult, could have rung the bell, and asked for her. Rory was in college - she did her best to visit him, even sat there in Taylor's shop, just to spend time with him. I usually defend Dean, but in that case, he was a prick. 

[ghoulina]

18 hours ago, Katy M said:

Third of all, the party was just the last straw.  Rory was always too busy for him, wasn't all that keen on eating day old subs in the back room at Dosey's, or whatever they were doing (honestly a bit fuzzy on this).

This relationship was not going to work and Dean was right to break it off.

To be fair, it wasn't just Rory being too busy for Dean. They were BOTH busy. He was working several jobs and having to share the car with Lindsey. There was that one scene of them trying to make plans and they were both booked for over a week straight. They were both entering this part two relationship for all the wrong reasons. Dean was in a foolish, immature marriage and Rory was out of her depth at college. They were both longing for the safety and security of the puppy love they had back in high school. But nothing was as it once was. 

That night, Rory did take Dean for granted, as she often does. But this was the second time he publicly broke up with her, which is just cruel, IMO. He should have gone ahead and taken her from her grandparents and had a private talk about why things were not working. 

Edited February 13, 2017 by ghoulina

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, ghoulina said:

To be fair, it wasn't just Rory being too busy for Dean. They were BOTH busy. He was working several jobs and having to share the car with Lindsey. There was that one scene of them trying to make plans and they were both booked for over a week straight.

YEs, I wasn't trying to put their relationship problems all on Rory.  I was just tryin to say that I don't think Dean was wrong or a jerk to break up with Rory then and there and I didn't think it was all due to the party.  And, maybe he should have driven her back to SH to break up with her, but I think he was just done at that point and he knew he wasn't leaving her stranded.

[shron17]

12 hours ago, Anela said:

Dean, being an adult, could have rung the bell, and asked for her.

He could have, but since they were in the pool house it might have taken a while to find her.  I think coming out tipsy with the guys was a pretty clear sign to Dean.  When Logan and his friends took her to the pool house to party, it seemed clear she was more into that than going out with Dean or she would have paid more attention to the time.

[Anela]

4 hours ago, shron17 said:

He could have, but since they were in the pool house it might have taken a while to find her.  I think coming out tipsy with the guys was a pretty clear sign to Dean.  When Logan and his friends took her to the pool house to party, it seemed clear she was more into that than going out with Dean or she would have paid more attention to the time.

He didn't ask her *why*. He just made a snap judgement. She was miserable at the party. 

I also realized when I walked away this morning, that the maid would have answered the door - not Emily or Richard. But, if he's old enough to get married, he's old enough to deal with them. The poster I responded to earlier, said that Rory was too busy for him. Well, he was too busy for Lindsey, who was complaining that she wanted to spend time with him, and their friends. 

[shron17]

2 minutes ago, Anela said:

She was miserable at the party. 

Maybe it's just me, but after Logan and Colin and Finn moved the party to the pool house Rory didn't seem miserable at all.  She was drinking and laughing and joking with them all and even got honest feedback on her article from Logan.

[HeySandyStrange]

Eh, I know Dean made some poor decisions and had his moments of assholishness (to put it mildly), but I think in that moment of seeing Rory at the party he finally realized the inevitable: they were going in different directions and it wasn't going to work. I'm sure Rory realized it too, but she was probably waiting for him to break it off anyway, since she never wanted to be the bad guy. I don't feel to terrible for her, even if it was a dick move from Dean, because she recovered quite well in the arms of her cohorts. She showed no long lasting effects of their 3rd breakup so I don't think she deserves that much sympathy.

I had some sympathy the first time they broke up and even the second time, because there seemed to be more genuine hurt on both sides, but by the third time their relationship was DOA imho. After the ridiculousness of Dean and Lindsay getting married and the affair, it was hard to get upset at how Dean broke up with her at the party.

Edited February 13, 2017 by HeySandyStrange

[Katy M]

23 minutes ago, shron17 said:

Maybe it's just me, but after Logan and Colin and Finn moved the party to the pool house Rory didn't seem miserable at all.  She was drinking and laughing and joking with them all and even got honest feedback on her article from Logan.

Yeah, she may have been miserable for the first 10 minutes, but she was definitely having fun later.

[Anela]

51 minutes ago, HeySandyStrange said:

Eh, I know Dean made some poor decisions and had his moments of assholishness (to put it mildly), but I think in that moment of seeing Rory at the party he finally realized the inevitable: they were going in different directions and it wasn't going to work. I'm sure Rory realized it too, but she was probably waiting for him to break it off anyway, since she never wanted to be the bad guy. I don't feel to terrible for her, even if it was a dick move from Dean, because she recovered quite well in the arms of her cohorts. She showed no long lasting effects of their 3rd breakup so I don't think she deserves that much sympathy.

I had some sympathy the first time they broke up and even the second time, because there seemed to be more genuine hurt on both sides, but by the third time their relationship was DOA imho. After the ridiculousness of Dean and Lindsay getting married and the affair, it was hard to get upset at how Dean broke up with her at the party.

I wasn't upset. It all seemed pointless. I don't know why the creators felt the need to push them together again. Dean was just as much to blame for all of it. 

[Katy M]

15 minutes ago, Anela said:

I wasn't upset. It all seemed pointless. I don't know why the creators felt the need to push them together again. Dean was just as much to blame for all of it. 

Yes.  100%.  It was pointless.  Since this isn't real life, we can sit back and say, why did this happen?  Why have Rory do something so heinous as sleep with a married man (and before someone jumps on me, no, I'm not giving Dean a pass or saying it was more Rory's fault, but Dean isn't a main character, and I'm discussing TV show not real life) just to have that relationship fizzle also a few episodes later.  Was an affair supposed to make her more grown up and worldly.  All it did in my eyes was destroy a character that I really liked up to that point.

[tarotx]

I think it was done for end of the season drama and to add a precursor fight between Lorelai&Rory. Season 5 started and ended with the mother/daughter in at least semi not talking drama. This Dean stuff caused Lorelai not to feel comfortable playing the mother role with Rory. Rory was much more independent from Lorelai's force going forward. 

[Pete Martell]

1 hour ago, tarotx said:

I think it was done for end of the season drama and to add a precursor fight between Lorelai&Rory. Season 5 started and ended with the mother/daughter in at least semi not talking drama. This Dean stuff caused Lorelai not to feel comfortable playing the mother role with Rory. Rory was much more independent from Lorelai's force going forward. 

I watched that scene again after your post, and I thought of the criticisms of Lorelai not having more of a reaction to Rory telling her about cheating on her boyfriend with various men, one of them having a fiance, et al. I'm left wondering if, as some fans said, Lorelai was just used to this with her daughter by this point, so didn't care, or if they didn't have her really react because we were supposed to not see her behavior as a big deal (or maybe she cheated with the "right" man for the story so we weren't supposed to object?). Either way it makes me kind of sad, as that type of scene has so much of the humanity and layers I didn't get in their relationship for the revival. 

Edited February 14, 2017 by Pete Martell

[ghoulina]

16 hours ago, HeySandyStrange said:

Eh, I know Dean made some poor decisions and had his moments of assholishness (to put it mildly), but I think in that moment of seeing Rory at the party he finally realized the inevitable: they were going in different directions and it wasn't going to work. I'm sure Rory realized it too, but she was probably waiting for him to break it off anyway, since she never wanted to be the bad guy.

I definitely think she was realizing it. I have watched these scenes fairly recently and there was a moment when they're sharing a meal in the stock room and Rory is asking about a recent paper/article she let him read. He couldn't really articulate anything specific about it, just that he knows what is good and her paper was "good". Rory got this very disappointed look on her face. Then she sort of took a breath and moved onto plans for that evening. 

I think their second go 'round was a lot like the first one, in that before it was officially over she had found someone who was more of her intellectual equal. Dean was fun. Dean was sweet. Dean made her feel safe. But he wasn't someone she could have have a deep conversation with, and I think she felt starved intellectually in that relationship. She'd already had a few interactions with Logan at that point and could tell he was more her equal. She may not have been certain she was into Logan at that point, but I think she knew deep down that she wanted someone who could challenge her more. 

But you're right. Rory never wants to be the bad guy. I think she definitely didn't want to end things this time because she did feel a lot of guilt over ending his marriage. He gave up everything for her...now it's going to peter out a few months later? I think she was more sad about that, than actually losing Dean himself. 

[HeySandyStrange]

43 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

I definitely think she was realizing it. I have watched these scenes fairly recently and there was a moment when they're sharing a meal in the stock room and Rory is asking about a recent paper/article she let him read. He couldn't really articulate anything specific about it, just that he knows what is good and her paper was "good". Rory got this very disappointed look on her face. Then she sort of took a breath and moved onto plans for that evening. 

True, and to be fair, for all we know on his end Dean was thinking "I work 3+ jobs, I'm going through a divorce, I don't have rich grandparents to fall back on, and she wants me spend what little time I have analyzing her article for her school paper? I barely have time to spend with her!" Dean was definitely more of a practical hard worker compared to Rory's ambitious intellectual with a taste for the high life, which Dean could never give her on his own. I think if he was a more mature or better written character, he would've been able to articulate that better then walking off in a huff.

I know a lot of people really liked Rory and Dean's scene in the revival and thought Rory's spiel about Dean making her feel safe and wishing she'd met him later in life sweet, but I sort of rolled my eyes at that. I doubt Dean's comfortable, family oriented life in Scranton would ever appeal to Rory. You know, she might have to cut some coupons! Or forgo designer threads for target, Walmart or ,even worse, Goodwill cloths! The horror! LOL sorry couldn't resist. In my mind revival Dean, who is closer to season 1 Dean, was thinking the same thing. Like "Damn girl, you weren't happy all those times we were together, what changed? Umkay, I'm gonna' have to go back to my great wife and kids now, buh bye!"

[Katy M]

22 minutes ago, HeySandyStrange said:

I know a lot of people really liked Rory and Dean's scene in the revival and thought Rory's spiel about Dean making her feel safe and wishing she'd met him later in life sweet, but I sort of rolled my eyes at that. I doubt Dean's comfortable, family oriented life in Scranton would ever appeal to Rory. You know, she might have to cut some coupons! Or forgo designer threads for target, Walmart or ,even worse, Goodwill cloths! The horror! LOL sorry couldn't resist. In my mind revival Dean, who is closer to season 1 Dean, was thinking the same thing. Like "Damn girl, you weren't happy all those times we were together, what changed? Umkay, I'm gonna' have to go back to my great wife and kids now, buh bye!"

I think Rory suffers from Nostalgia Envy.  I don't think there's much doubt that she was happy in Season 1 with Dean.  They were sophomores in high school so nothing had to be overly complicated and they had no responsibilities.  So, every time Rory is unhappy, she remembers Season 1 and how happy Dean made her feel and thinks that she should be able to go back to that.  Not realizing that they were too different, so as they got older they would want different things and different lifestyles and it would never work.  So, what she really wants, is to not meet him now when they are older, but to somehow freeze time forever at 16, when nothing really mattered.

And, I think we all have that perfect time in our life.  Mine is college.  I would love to just go be in college forever.  But, I know that I would be horribly out of place and old.  You can't go back, and you're smart if you just hold on to the happy memories and don't try.  But, Rory kept trying.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Katy M

[HeySandyStrange]

^ Oh I definitely agree with this. Rory is definitely a grass is greener type of person, we saw that when she was with Dean, Logan and Jess. Which leads me to the UO that both Dean and Jess dodged a bullet with Rory. I can't see Rory happily "slumming" it with either of them, she definitely seems to have the need for a certain level of financial security that neither could've afforded her. Which is why, among other things, Logan might've been the best choice if they hadn't pretty much sunk that ship in the revival. 

Edited February 14, 2017 by HeySandyStrange

[moonb]

22 hours ago, Pete Martell said:

I thought of the criticisms of Lorelai not having more of a reaction to Rory telling her about cheating on her boyfriend with various men, one of them having a fiance, et al. I'm left wondering if, as some fans said, Lorelai was just used to this with her daughter by this point, so didn't care, or if they didn't have her really react because we were supposed to not see her behavior as a big deal (or maybe she cheated with the "right" man for the story so we weren't supposed to object?).

Yeah, I thought this was a missed opportunity in the revival. There was a brief moment where Lorelai had this queasy look on her face after finding out about Rory and Logan, like she's realizing that she can't chalk this one up to an inexperienced mistake like she could with Rory's affair with Dean, and that there are things she doesn't really like about her grown child.  Or maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part, lol. But I wish there'd been more of a thread about this part of Rory's character that needs to be comfortable and how that can be beneficial or self-destructive. Lorelai certainly got enough pushback and disapproval from her parents and even Sookie about her relationship and commitment problems. Too bad there couldn't have been a "what are you thinking!?" to Rory from Lorelai, Lane or Paris. Instead we got a "oh no, you didn't treat him badly" from Lorelai when Paul finally breaks up with Rory. 

Edited February 15, 2017 by moonb

[Taryn74]

29 minutes ago, moonb said:

Too bad there couldn't have been a "what are you thinking!?" to Rory from Lorelai, Lane or Paris.

I would have paid money to see Paris lay into her.  One of my big wishes for the revival would have been to see Paris let Rory know that her "secret relationship" wasn't so secret because they weren't exactly discreet and people aren't stupid.  And then to call her a dipsh*t.

31 minutes ago, moonb said:

Instead we got a "oh no, you didn't treat him badly" from Lorelai when Paul finally breaks up with Rory. 

Guuuuuhhhhhh.

[Kohola3]

3 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

 

35 minutes ago, moonb said:

Too bad there couldn't have been a "what are you thinking!?" to Rory from Lorelai, Lane or Paris.

I would have paid money to see Paris lay into her.  One of my big wishes for the revival would have been to see Paris let Rory know that her "secret relationship" wasn't so secret because they weren't exactly discreet and people aren't stupid.  And then to call her a dipsh*t.

 

Now THAT I would have loved to see.  It would have been the singular bright spot in an otherwise dreary mess.

[TimetravellingBW]

On 2/13/2017 at 9:40 AM, KatWay said:

I definitely think we were meant to feel sorry for Lindsey there. To be honest, their marriage always seemed like a plot device to me, because...why would Dean marry this girl straight out of high school when he'd spoken of going to college. Instead he was stuck working in construction. And did Lindsey not want to do anything other than being an 18-year old housewife? To a guy who was obviously still at least a little hung up on his ex? They hadn't even dated for very long. Not to mention she was upset about the long hours he was working, but since they were playing house how else would they have afforded that?

The Dean-Lindsay set up always seemed bizarre to me as well. I can just about buy them getting married - there are young couples who rush into stupid things when they're "in love." (Especially in small towns or conservative/church circles). But Lindsay becoming a houswife and not studying or working at all while Dean worked 3 jobs? And everyone around them thinking that was totally normal? That was just weird. In the 1950's women might go straight from high school into "being a wife" but in 2004 young women do something - college, a job - not just cook and clean. Sure once they had kids or were a bit older Lindsay choosing to become a stay at home mother/wife would make sense but not at 18. Did Dean and Lindsay's parents not say anything? It felt like another case of ASP writing like the show was set 60 years in the past.

(Edit: I'm not trying to imply that stay at home wives are in some way lazy or not "achieving" anything worthwhile, but I find it odd that Lindsay was only 18 and seemingly had no activity in her life beyond waiting for her low-paid husband to get home every night).

On 2/13/2017 at 10:03 AM, whateverhappened said:

Has anyone here ever watched Parks & Recreation? It's a different type of show, but it includes some stuff about community, female empowerment, and getting along with people despite differences in personality, class, background and so on that reminds me a little of Gilmore Girls. It's possible that everything reminds me of Gilmore Girls, lol. I'm bringing it up because there's something about Andy x April that reminds me of Lorelai x Luke - an energetic, extroverted, sociable, fun loving and flightier person paired with a more reclusive, introverted, moodier, cynical yet very loyal and caring partner. There are some differences, and on Parks it's the female who's the introverted cynic, but the discussion here about LL sticks with me while I rewatch Parks because Parks did a much better job of showing how a couple's differences can be complemetary, how two very different people can balance out each other's flaws, challenge each other to change a little in positive ways and may turn out not to be that different beneath the surface. April x Andy connected beautifully despite their differences and their relationship was filled with passion and fun. They have realistic conflicts but never break up, learn to communicate and always clearly adore each other. Their differences become an asset in their relationship rather than a liability. It reaffirms how wonderfully I think LL could have been written, though I'm fast developing the opinion that the Palladinos are just not very adept at writing romance. I get why the general fan sentiment is against Daniel R., but I thought during his one season with the show he wrote and directed romance in a way that allowed couples to have moments of sweetness and fun and to show more affection than we got for most of the rest of the series.

I love Parks and Rec - it actually usurped GG as my second favourite comedy. (Friends still reigns supreme). I hadn't thought of the parallels with GG but now you mention them I can see it: Quirky small town setting, energizer bunny/super capable female lead and lots of positive female friendship.

And yep Parks and Rec managed to nail the bouncy-extroverted x cynical-introvert pairing not once but twice with Andy/April and then Leslie/Ben.  And in both cases they showed the realistic clashes between such couples and how they strengthened each other (April helped Andy get his life together and Leslie pulled Ben out of his cynicism and isolation). And the two couples didn't feel like repeats because they had depths beyond extrovert/introvert, with similarities that attracted the two halves to each other. Andy/April were immature and carefree while Ben/Leslie were workaholic nerds.

A lot of the strengths and difficulties in their differences could have been explored with Luke and Lorelai: Would Lorelai help Luke get out more and relax, would Luke help Lorelai feel she didn't have to put her "always witty, always engaging" Lorelai act on, would they struggle with Lorelai wanted to go out and Luke wanted to stay in? (I actually liked that one episode where they negotiated over bedtimes and adapting to each other's lifestyles).

Super importantly Parks and Rec invested as much in A/A and L/B's post get-together dynamic as they did in the "will they or won't they" stage. I really wish that once Luke and Lorelai were together the writers had explored their lives/dynamic as a couple rather than breaking up and getting back together again.  I agree that D.R did that better in s7 as seen with Logan/Rory in s7 which honestly was one of the healthiest relationships on the show even though s5-6 Logan/Rory were so toxic. Like a lot of writers ASP is scared to change the status quo and commit to a permanent relationship so keeps adding drama and break ups for the sake of it.

10 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

I would have paid money to see Paris lay into her.  One of my big wishes for the revival would have been to see Paris let Rory know that her "secret relationship" wasn't so secret because they weren't exactly discreet and people aren't stupid.  And then to call her a dipsh*t.

Guuuuuhhhhhh.

Argh, that would have been amazing. No one gives tough love talks better than Paris.

Edited February 15, 2017 by TimetravellingBW

[Viqutorious]

42 minutes ago, TimetravellingBW said:

But Lindsay becoming a houswife and not studying or working at all while Dean worked 3 jobs? And everyone around them thinking that was totally normal? That was just weird. In the 1950's women might go straight from high school into "being a wife" but in 2004 young women do something - college, a job - not just cook and clean. Sure once they had kids or were a bit older Lindsay choosing to become a stay at home mother/wife would make sense but not at 18. Did Dean and Lindsay's parents not say anything? It felt like another case of ASP writing like the show was set 60 years in the past.

I agree that was very unrealistic, it drove me nuts that her mom was basically teaching her how to be a housewife.  It was like Donna Reed on steroids. Were the writers trying to portray Lindsay as the opposite of Rory, or the ideal Donna Reed wife Dean talked about in season one?

[Frelling Tralk]

I never really understood that either, in this day and age only the very comfortably well-off would consider it acceptable to basically do nothing but sit around at home after finishing school. I guess it was there to give Dean the Donna Reed fantasy that he had once spoken of wanting, so that he could realise that the reality didn't live up to the fantasy, but it would have made more sense if they had Lindsay say attending college and getting frustrated at Dean not wanting to hang out with her college friends and have fun being young, at least her being in full-time education would justify her not bringing any money home when she was complaining about how all Dean ever does is work

Or they could have had to get married in a rush because Dean unexpectedly got Lindsay pregnant, having a baby to look after would have been a fair justification for Lindsay being home all day, while Dean was out working three jobs. But as it is, I'm surprised that Rory was apparently the one person in town to make a crack about couldn't Lindsay get a job, Dean himself should have been saying something about needing Lindsay to help out if they're to afford the house imo. No one is that old-fashioned that it wouldn't bother them at all! 

In fact, even with all of Dean's nostalgia about his mother being happy to take care of her family, I'm pretty sure it's mentioned that she still had a part-time job on top of that, it was the evenings when she was cooking etc for them?  Nobody is staying at home full-time these days, not unless they married into serious money. Heck even very rich wife's like Emily who don't need to work, they generally still keep themselves busy with charitable work, planning social functions for their husbands etc. And I can't remember the exact words now, but I think that Rory gets told something similar about the heavy expectations of supporting her husband and being the right kind of wife by Logan's family, none of those women were just sitting at home all day bored and with nothing to do in the way that Lindsay apparently was 

Edited February 15, 2017 by Frelling Tralk

[Katy M]

I think to have made it more realistic, but still uneven and maybe unfair, they should have had Dean and Lindsay agree that Dean would work while Lindsay went to school, and then when Lindsay was done, dean would go to school.  That would have made more sense, still given Rory something to complain about (especially if she didn't know about the deal, but we did) and made Dean overworked.  They could also have had Lindsay be pregnant and want to be a stay-at-home mom, but then we would be bringing an innocent child into this whole debacle, and I think we can all agree that would have sucked.

[ghoulina]

I agree that it seemed they came up with the whole Lindsey is a housewife while Dean toils away business just to create strife in the marriage. It doesn't really seem realistic. I do recall that they had only one car, right? Or didn't have a car and were saving up? I can't recall, but even that isn't a good excuse, because everyone walks in Stars Hollow. She could have worked at the beauty supply store or something. Dean's all, "Lindsey wants a townhouse" - well tell her to get a job! It was likely done to make her look really bratty and entitled, and cause us to feel some sympathy for Dean. But I still didn't, because A. Don't rush into marriage with a girl who just graduated high school and B. If you're that unhappy, just leave. 

[Frelling Tralk]

They did only share the one car yes, I remember Dean mentioning that Lindsay has the car that night in an episode from season 5 when him and Rory are starting to date   

And yep, Lindsay could have absolutely got a job at one of the local stores, even just a part-time one. The writers were really straining credibility to give her absolutely nothing to do with her time, especially if she was then going to complain about wanting a town house, and also complain about Dean having to work so much and not having any time to spend with her

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

But she was perfecting pot roast. 

The marriage was ill conceived, as was everything surrounding it. If they had proper council from the adults in their lives, they wouldn't have gotten married period. If they disregarded advice before they got married, they certainly would about how to run their household 

[Taryn74]

As someone who knew from childhood I wanted to be a stay-at-home mom (and I have been for almost 19 years now), even I agree that the portrayal of the Dean/Lindsey marriage was ridiculous.  As someone mentioned above, it doesn't make ANY sense that they didn't have kids for Lindsey to be at home taking care of, she wasn't pregnant, she didn't have health issues, she wasn't in college full time....she had nothing going on to keep her from working.  They could have at the very least made her extremely frugal and able to run a household on limited budget, but no.  She had to be some shrill harpy shrieking about wanting a townhouse and a better car and her husband to be making tons of money to pay for everything she wanted, while simultaneously going out with her and their friends every night.  Ugh.  Ridiculous.

Editing to add - Even though I wanted to be a SAHM, I still got a degree and worked in the years between getting married and getting pregnant.  I didn't just sit around after high school contributing nothing.  Just had to throw that in, heh.

Edited February 15, 2017 by Taryn74

[Guest]

I think they didn't want to have her pregnant because then instead of helping break up a marriage, Rory would be breaking up a marriage with a very young child in tow.  But it would have been more realistic than Lindsay's mom comes over every day to spend all day teaching her daughter laundry and lunch-making.

[ghoulina]

I always knew I wanted to be a SAHM too. And I actually DID stay home a few times, when not having kids. I did it briefly with both of my serious, live-in boyfriends that I was with before my husband. I actually stayed home, sans kids, for a few months when I first moved in with my husband as well. But it never lasted. I got bored. I wanted to contribute. I was a pharmacy tech before I had kids, so while I never went to college, I did believe in working hard and advancing in my field. I studied hard and got my national certification before it was routinely required and was always taking CEs to learn more and increase my salary. 

I've been home now for almost 9 years. I homeschool as well, so I'll be here awhile. I am very content with my life, but damn...before the kids came along, staying home all day got super boring. There's only so much cleaning you can do. Dinner doesn't take all day. But I guess making biohazard level peanut brittle might? 

[Taryn74]

30 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

Dinner doesn't take all day. But I guess making biohazard level peanut brittle might? 

Bahaha.  Well, she did have to cook it for a very long time for it to be that hard......

[Pam Poovey]

8 hours ago, Frelling Tralk said:

I guess it was there to give Dean the Donna Reed fantasy that he had once spoken of wanting, so that he could realise that the reality didn't live up to the fantasy

Even Donna Reed studied and had a job - she was a trained nurse and sometimes worked even after being a mother and housewife; she didn't go straight from high school to pot roasts. The Donna Reed Show was actually more realistic than GG, despite being seen as a 1950s fantasy! That was the bizarre thing about the Lindsey situation: it didn't even fit with the 1950s.

It really did feel that the writers manipulated the situation into something so contrived that we could see that the Dean-Lindsey marriage was doomed from the start, so Rory having an affair with Dean wasn't something that ended the marriage so much as hastened its demise (and left them conveniently child-free at the end). If Lindsey had been studying part-time or even hoping to become a mother as soon as possible it would have made Rory and Dean's actions far more damaging.

[Melancholy]

Lindsey wasn't supposed to be typical. I can't buy arguments that the show was unrealistic in how it presented her because most women of her generation and life stage work and/or study. Rory and Lorelai were acting like Lindsey was weird to want to do nothing but expect prosperity with one non-college degree income. That was clearly the authorial attitude. 

I don't think it was poorly written. There are Lindseys out there even if they're not the norm. Cheating is usually Bourne of conflict. Lindsey's strange but plausible lifestyle choice provided the match to the "Dean remained hung up on Rory and Rory wanted that nostalgia after a kind of sad year"' fuse. But I generally think "Rory breaks bad" storylines are underrated for how they start off well even though the execution falls later. 

[Sweet Tee]

Lindsay didn't deserve to be cheated on but I definitely had a hard time feeling sorry for her when she whined about wanting a town house but didn't lift a finger to help out financially.  And then complained that Dean was never home.  Does she not understand that things cost money?  And to make money (most) people have to work?  If she were at least going to school, that would be one thing.  As it is, I have no idea what she was doing with her time.  And I know that it was just done so Rory wouldn't look as bad but it still bothered me.

[ghoulina]

It was annoying that Lindsey thought that way, but I think she was largely a product of her environment. We saw that her mother encouraged this lifestyle. By helping her make lunch and bring it up to the Dragonfly every day. She thought it was just the cutest thing. I have no idea if she worked or not, but she clearly thought her daughter could do no wrong. Lindsey annoyed the hell out of me when she was demanding Dean hang out with her when he was just trying to provide, but it's possible with some time on their own she'd eventually figure it out. She was fresh out of high school and went right from mommy's house to her husband. I think she was just incredibly naive and sheltered, but a lot of kids are when they first start out. 

[moonb]

So Lindsey and her mom are alternative-Lorelai and Rory, except with a different goal in mind for the Gilmore girls than a contented homemaker? :) That's pretty much the way either of them would have behaved toward a significant other when he's working (Luke's, ahem), complete with bringing a new wardrobe or a story to review instead of food.  And of course neither Lorelai or Rory ever thought there was anything wrong with their behavior (naive, sheltered, adorable). 

 I figured Lindsey was just frustrated that her vision of how marriage would be didn't match up to the real thing - there are people who still think marriage by itself magically fixes your life and your finances, after all - and perhaps hadn't planned on anything beyond that.  She's not exactly a three-dimensional character, but I hope her life by the revival was closer to Dean's happy ending. 

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

23 hours ago, moonb said:

So Lindsey and her mom are alternative-Lorelai and Rory, except with a different goal in mind for the Gilmore girls than a contented homemaker? :) That's pretty much the way either of them would have behaved toward a significant other when he's working (Luke's, ahem), complete with bringing a new wardrobe or a story to review instead of food.  And of course neither Lorelai or Rory ever thought there was anything wrong with their behavior (naive, sheltered, adorable). 

This got me thinking. Not that I'm for or against that sort of thing, out of curiosity. Has Lorelai ever "taken care" of Luke in a domestic way ever? What does she do for him as far as caring?

Comparing them to Rory/Logan, there are instances where Rory have brought him drinks and once she was shown making him a sandwich in S7. She also obviously cared for him after the accident. They've also been shown cooking meals together. I don't recall Lorelai ever doing something similar with Luke.

[Kohola3]

1 hour ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

I don't recall Lorelai ever doing something similar with Luke.

She's too busy coming up with clever quips.

However, she did bring him a turkey burger when he was in his apartment making funeral arrangements for Uncle Louie.  Not that she made it but at least she thought of him and brought it up.  And she did take over the diner and attend the funeral.