S05.E08: Hardhome

[FormerMod-a1]

I wonder who is more unpopular with the unsullied viewers, Cersei or Jaime?

 

For this non-book-reader, who reads the book-talk threads, it's Cersei.  I don't even think she truly loves her kids.  I'd only go so far to say she "loves" them only as an extension of herself and only wants what's best of them in so far as it's best for her.  If it's not good for her, she doesn't care.

[BlackberryJam]

From what I hear? Cersei is vastly unpopular, but Jaime is funny and he saved Brienne, who is much loved. If we are counting up the positive character moments in screen, we have all Jaime's funny lines with Brienne, saving Brienne from rape, jumping into a bearpit for Brienne, giving Oathkeeper to Brienne, standing up to Tywin to save Tyrion, his scenes in the cells with Tyrion and setting Tyrion free.

 

Positive character moment with Cersei ...

 

I'm still thinking. Tyrion was the amusing one their scenes together. She is never funny or witty. She never just does something kind for another character. Mostly she's annoyed, she's cranky, she's raging, she's arguing, she's plotting, she's manipulating. Sure, we can feel pity for her in some scenes, particularly the scene with Robert when he smacks her, but positive, likable character moments?  Not really.

[ShannaB]

I truly liked the Wildling woman and she would have made a great addition to the cast.  Sorry to see her go so fast but her short time on screen was memorable.  I was thinking about her stopping in her tracks when she saw the Wight children and I think I would have sliced and diced my way through them unless one of the children  had been mine.  I would have paused but you can't do that with fast moving zombies.  Geez....Rick Grimes and posse don't know how good they have it!  Nothing worse than evil clowns and zombie kids!

 

I don't see anything wrong with Jon and the boat rowers stopping the boat they way they did.  They were far enough away and I think it would have been hard to move or row when you have such a riveting and horrific spectacle in front of you.  After seeing it, then, of course, you row away like hell!  The power of the Night King raising the massive army of the dead had to be seen.

 

Two things about the first White Walker -

 1.  For someone who looked so old, wizened and brittle (hee), he sure was spry.  The fight scenes were very good.

 2.  We saw a wall of fire and then the White Walker came through and the fire actually parted for him.  I wonder if that was for dramatic  effect or if it was because WW can 'bend' fire.  If it is the latter then that is bad because you'd think White Walkers would avoid fire at all times.

[Saje]

I was afraid he was going to invoke his power and flash freeze the water, so trapping the boats and giving the zombies access to the people fleeing.

 

I wondered if he would show up, but he couldn't just be part of the horde.

 

YES YES YES I was so afraid he was going to freeze the water so nobody could get away and the wights would stampede again and get them all! 

 

And WHY didn't Jon grab the White Walker's (walkers - I really couldn't deny The Walking Dead vibe here) weapon - it could have been like Loki's scepter or something!

 

The thing is, the White Walkers seem really self-aware and sentient, not just mindless killers like in the book. They seem to have a plan. And they dress in clothes and arm themselves... I wonder if anyone has ever tried to 'sit down', as in a war council, with one, and what would be that outcome? Do they even have language?

[dr pepper]

While I remain unconvinced that Dany will ever be the ruler they seem to be fluffing her

 

Hey! That's Daario's job.

[Chris24601]

My guess about the fire bending is that fire needs air, fuel and heat to sustain itself. If the Walker were cold enough that alone would extinguish nearby fires by absorbing enough heat the exothermic reaction couldn't sustain itself... and now that I'm remembering my highschool physics classes about how cold object make other things colder by absorbing heat from them and now I can't help but think the Walkers are some sort of energy vampires... sucking up every last bit of heat around them and still insatiably wanting more.

[Andromeda]

I loved how the White Walker made the fire extinguish around him (or bend around him, I'm not sure.) It really did a great job of visually illustrating how COLD he was.

[dr pepper]

Since the white walkers have been a threat for 1000 years, shouldn't they have records about obsidian and valerian steel being the weapons to use.  I hope someone is writing it down now anyway - get to it Sam!

 

The humans of Westeros have a known history that apparently goes back over 4000 years, albeit it's kind of muddled about events before the Andal conquest.

 

But it was one of the first folk that built the wall, so that's way more than 1000 years.

 

Problem is that it has been centuries since the walkers were last active.

 

That's why i've come up with my theory that the planet has a power cycle in addition to its weird season cycle.

 

Just as magic and the combustability of greek fire had declined, so had whatever it is supports the metabolism of dragons, which had last reached a peak when the Targs arrived. The power that makes the walkers walk, not to mention their ability to raise zombies, and the red clergy's power to do even more, has been at minimum for way longer.

 

Now they are all increasing.

 

A part of my theory is that this last power, the control of life energy, only rises when a rise in the rest of the power cycle coincides with the seasonal cycle heading into a really bad winter phase. And while there are people old enough to remember the last winter, and presumably records of various bad winters past, any accompanying stories of the dead walking from those times has been dismissed as just that, stories.

 

Sadly, because of this long absence of walker activiy, even the Night's Watch has forgotten. Probably, as the generations went on, it was seen less and less as an honor so the ratio of enthusiastic volunteers verses reluctant volunteers declined, and the ratio of both to exiles declined even fast. So fewer people bothered to read the books, fewer of those who did were literate enough to truly understand.

 

So somewhere along the line the NW came to believe that the artificial glacier they guard was merely to keep out bandits. Even the so called free folk, think that the wall was put up to spite them and that giants and mammoths and bearstiality are the strangest it gets further north of them.

 

So, yeah, once upon a time the Night's Watch collected caches of obsidian, and practiced tactics for dealing with undead and  the creatures behind them. They might even have kept up communication with the fairies and supplied some of their own to be central ganglia in the weirwood network.

 

But not anymore.

[dr pepper]

 

Confused about Jorah - what is his plan?  He's looking to get executed this way!  Go help pave the way for Dany in Westeros - work the long game and prove your worth another way.

 

Jorah doesn't have time for a long game. Or at least he thinks he doesn't, given what everyone says about grayscale.. Actually, though, i'm sure that the red clergy can now cure it, albeit there might still be a nasty scar. But i think Jor is too much a practical man to seek out a religious solution.

[Knuckles]

I rewatched the episode tonight and it is still scary as all hell at Hardhome, even the second time around. Besides Edd, who else in the NW came with Jon? I'm thinking he will need witnesses to back up his telling of the events at Hardhome. Edd is already known to the NW as a Jon partisan, so there have to be other brothers who can verify what happened.

I can see Thorne's sneering disbelief already. 

And i am a fan of Tormund. I know he killed Olly's folks, and led the raid against that poor horse seller, but purely as a Wilding, he's a stand-up guy. He's taking the same risk as Jon...and I missed seeing the woofing between the Lord of Bones and Tormund as a gay slight...more the sort of standard verbal crap a couple of guys 

use before a throw-down. But I am willing to be wrong.

[Holmbo]

I highly doubt that, A WTF moment like that (especially if it's not clear he's dead) is just going to increase buzz for the series.

If it's not clear if he's dead I don't think there will be a problem. I'm just concerned they are going to on purpose mislead people that he died. Which in an earlier season would have worked great but now so many protagonists have died that I think it would be the last drop for many.

[dr pepper]

I thought having noble kids raised by other nobles was pretty normal in Westeros and that it's part of creating alliances between houses. Ned, Robert, and Littlefinger were all fostered in the Vale. Before the events of the book, there was the whole question of who would foster Sweet Robin with Stannis and Tywin wanting him because it guaranteed alliance with the Vale. 

 

Allies foster. But Stark and Greyjoy are not allies, they are fellow nobles of the realm. In european terms, the North is a duchy, the Iron Islands are a barony.

 

Greyjoy tried to revolt. They got stomped down hard. Most humiliating to a viking culure, they lost their fleet. And after their defeat, various conditions were imposed. One of those was the sending of the Greyjoy's eldest son to be a hostage at Winterfell.

 

Ned Stark, the kindly, foolish, only leader of his generation who was not a wanton murderer, treated it as a fostering. He never treated Theon with contempt and so, neither did his children. Presumably, they grew up with  a sense of distance that put Jon on the edge of the family, and Theon somewhere between the family and the household servants. Because of Ned's egalitarianism, the only reason for the children to bond to Theon or not, would be closeness in age and degree of shared interests.

[dr pepper]

Arya is going to kill Trant, which will free up a spot on the Kingsguard for Ser Robert Strong to occupy just in time for Cersei's trail by combat.  

 

Also, Arya's Faceless Man training is going to come into play at some point in the end game.  She's going to kill somebody important to the plot.  We just don't know who at this point.  

 

GRRM doesn't know either, but he has a dartboard set up.

[dr pepper]

I think what I loved so much about Tyrion and Dany's conversation is that there was no mention or reference to Tyrion being a dwarf. Like he said -- he's been on trial for being a dwarf his entire life. His family thinks he's a curse and strangers think he has a lucky dwarf dick. He's transported in crates like luggage and slavers see him as a novelty to sell at a discount alongside a "real" man.

The fact that Dany appeared to immediately recognize him as someone to take seriously was so refreshing...and I have had a rocky imaginary relationship with Dany's decision making at times. For his part, Tyrion never condescended to her or acted fatherly, which can't be said for Jorah or Selmy, and he doesn't worship her like the Unsullied. I don't know, I guess I'm just tickled by how natural it was for them to fall into a relationship as actual equals.

 

It helps that Tyrion's only direct knowledge of rulers was a drunken lout. And that his only direct knowledge of true leadership was his father, whom he looked up to but was not in awe of.

Edited June 3, 2015 by dr pepper

[dr pepper]

 

25 US states ban marriage between first cousins (I would have thought the number was higher to be honest!) and 6 states only allow it under certain circumstances.  It has largely fallen out of practice here so that is why many of us assume the reference to incest is Lancel.

 

 

I'm pretty sure that US laws against it would go down fast if challenged.

[Oscirus]

wonder who is more unpopular with the unsullied viewers, Cersei or Jaime?

 

That's easily cersei it's not even close. Despite the show runner's and Lena's attempt to humanize her, Cersei still comes off as a cartoonish villain who most of the time just causes trouble for the hell of it, while Jamie has a complex story arc and is a lot more relatable.

 

On an unrelated note, I hope that Theon isn't absolved of the murder of two kids just because they weren't Stark kids.

[dr pepper]

 

 

But what does dragon steel really mean?

Does it mean the Iron Throne is potentially a source of Valyrian steel since one of Aerys's dragons was used to forge it?

 

I think it is a special alloy, like titanium, that requires not only higher temperatures than medieval tech can produce, but also special handling techniques. Valeria was a highly advanced culture with dragons, volcanoes, and scientists. In the current era, the best that smiths in Westeros can do is rework the small amount that has come down to them. There may still be people in Essos that can make it, but only a small amount at a time. Otoh, with reference to my theory previously mentioned, with the power cycle in a rising phase, it may become easier to produce hotter fires.

[dr pepper]

oops

Edited June 3, 2015 by dr pepper

[dr pepper]

oops

Edited June 3, 2015 by dr pepper

[dr pepper]

She played one of the leads in the Danish series Borgen.   A fantastic show, btw.   

 

Is it available on Netflix?

[dr pepper]

Anyone else getting a kick out of reading the non-book/Unsullied threads and seeing everybody love Jon Snow suddenly...mwuahahaha! You'd think they would catch on finally

 

You'd think we would catch on finally. GRRM left Jon being stabbed to death. Despite all the speculation that he might survive, or be brought back as a revenant by the power of the red god, we have no guarantee that he will just be left dead dead in the remaining books. Of course since GRRM hasn't required the show to follow events that closely, show Jon probably gets the benefit of show tropes and therefor will live.

[dr pepper]

Wouldn't that just be the greatest indictment of the moron brigade? Swords that should be used to protect the realm are instead a place for the king or queen to sit around and lord their power over people.

 

Except, you can't "sit around", on that throne. You must sit carefully, always aware how easily you could injure herself. Even Cercei knew that. She had that dream, remember? The one where you go into the throneroom, sit down, and suddenly realize you forgot to wear clothes, and now your favorite toy is being slashed to ribbons?

[Boudicea]

I didn't mind that because he was delirious from torture, and I'm sure in some way he did see Ned as a father, especially given that Ironborn fathers weren't exactly sitcom dads to begin with.

 

It just feels cheap here, like they weren't sure if viewers would feel any emotional weight in these scenes unless we were told that Theon was a family member. 

 

The problem is if he was a family member or a friend, he would have been less likely to betray them. The Starks were courteous to him, and Robb was very close to him, but he was a ward. That's just how it worked - the Starks wouldn't have known how to treat him as anything else even if they'd wanted to. This basic fact riddled him with insecurity and ultimately led him to betrayal. 

 

I imagine someone just starting the show would watch these episodes and think Theon lashed out because Jon took his favorite cloak.

 

Theon's situation is much more complicated then just being a hostage who was treated kindly at times. The system of wardship was very common. Noble houses who were prone to conflict often exchanged wards. Like Robert and Ned growing up together and building a bond like brothers, it was done in order to foster and build a better relationship between the houses for the future.

 

Even if Balon Greyjon did rebel or act out against the agreement he had with the Crown, it is very highly unlikely and doubtful that Ned Stark of all people would actually have done anything to Theon. There would have been a few other options as well, they could have tried to crushed the rebellion again (the Ironborn just doesn't have the capacity to hold onto other lands),  and they could just depose of Balon and replaced him with Theon. The idea of Theon being a ward was properly also to cultivate a relationship between Theon and Robb. Previously there was always problems with the Ironborn, if Theon  and Robb had a relationship they could have cultivated a peace or a proper relationship between the North and the Iron Islands for the first time in history. In any event if Balon did actually  rebel whilst his son was in the hands of his "enemies", it would obviously mean that he cared little for the life of his only heir, and there would not have been much of a point to actually kill Theon if his father simply did not care. When you look at the political landscape Theon was actually in a pretty good position. 

 

Basically the "hostage" situation is more complicated then many people give it credit for. Theon creates or worsens his so-called hostage situation is own mind, to excuse and justify his actions. 

 

You have to look between the lines to see how Theon was actually treated by the Starks.  Basically he was treated just like any other normal ward would have been treated. He gets the same training and education as Robb, he really grows up next to Robb. He gets treated or is shown respect for his position as the heir to the Iron Islands. We see this through his reflections. He often reflects that Jon is jealous of him because he is treated with more respect then Jon. For example with feast he was seated on the dais where someone of stature would sit, whereas Jon has to be seated at the furthermost end of the hall with the lower ranking guards. When Catelyn discovers there is a conspiracy to kill Bran after the assassination attempt, she includes Theon into her trust. Theon also reflects that he and Sansa might have gotten married, if things went differently. 

So clearly if you look at how Theon was actually treated, then it would seem like he was treated just like any Ward would have been treated.

 

Theon's problems mainly goes back to his level of maturity, and his ego. He is stuck is in a very patriarchal society, where men have a lot to proof and where he just did not grow up fast enough, he basically acts like a teenager when we meet him at first. His story is tragic one, because perhaps he might have learned a few lessons along the way it there was more time, but the war breaks out and the time for growing up end abruptly. Theon is a bit like a male Sansa at the start, only he was much older and properly should have known better. He listens to peer pressure and craves recognition, which is not dreadful in itself but his timing was bad.  He also suffered from having a terrible father. In the end Theon learned, in the most brutal, possible way. This is a theme that is often touched upon, you might be suffering from being treated unfairly or by not being recognized but things can always go so much worse. Again if you compare Jon and Theon, Jon went to the Nights Watch with a big attitude and he saw himself as being better then the others around him. But unlike Theon he quickly learned that he had to earn respect, and that things isn't always a given because of your position, and even if you have your problems there are others who grew-up much worse then you did.     

Theon saw himself growing up as a victim of the Starks, he realized to late that Winterfell were the only place where he was ever treated like family, and he is the one who destroyed that forever. 

 

 

 

I'm curious as to how many Others there are. We saw thirteen of them in that scene where one of Craster's babies is changed and I think there were five who were present in this episode. All of them seem to be male and obviously female Others aren't really needed anyway but I am curious to know if the NK's wife will ever be a character. (I still kind of like the theories that she could be Melisandre.)

 

 

There is a theory that those 13 leaders or elders of the Others are the first 13 Lord Commanders of the Nights Watch, because the Nights King was the 13th Lord Commander of the Nights Watch, and all of them might be Starks. There is also a theory that the Nights Kings did not actually take an Other as his Queen, but a daughter of the Barrow King. There is a tale of a curse on the Barrowlands, the Barrow Kings where the first Kings of the North, and if anyone grew to be more powerful then them, then they would be weakened and turned into a corpse like being. 

 

 

I see how they could do it... if Jon and the other NW come back with the Wildlings and the stories and they STILL try to murder Jon because they're such short-sighted asshats who can't see past their own petty issues then LET THE WALKERS TAKE THEM with Jon, Ghost, Sam, Gilly and Little Sam as the only survivors. If you wanna up the OH SHIT factor by about a hundred, let the Walkers take Castle Black in the finale.

 

That would certainly free up Jon to go rescue his sister and take out the Boltons without violating his Oath or (if the Wall falls Winterfell is probably the best stronghold in the North to use as a base against the Walkers... its even got a tree to tie Bran into things once he can start looking/seeing through the trees and was built by the same guy who put up the Wall in the first place). Its also a valid reason to send Sam to OldTown looking for anything to help.

 

And to think... just last week I was saying "really the Walkers aren't all that bad compared to what's going on south of the Wall." Fifteen minutes of Hardhome and now even Ramsey "I flay old ladies for fun" Bolton looks like a pathetic little wanker playing at being evil/badass. If not for her dragons/blood ties to Old Valeria I'd even put Dany in the same boat of 'what's the point?' petty bickering over a throne that's worthless unless the Walkers are stopped (though with the talk of "King Crow" I'm now wondering if there might be a bit more to the visions of the empty throne we've been shown... because its not ACTUALLY empty... there's SNOW on it).

 

Stannis is about the only leader south of the Wall who even remotely gets it and, because anyone south of the Wall with any power being in a position to help simply cannot be allowed to stand, Ramsey's probably about to murder him (I'm wondering if it won't be Stannis sacrificing himself for his daughter and charging Davos with getting Shireen to safety as a dying request). Although I'm kinda thinking this might be how they circituitiously save Jon. Cue Ramsey killing Stannis intercut with Ollie and the idiots murdering Jon for the parallels. Then Mel does some ritual to restore 'Azor Ahai' to life to save Stannis only for it to to appear to not work much to her confusion... cut to the murdered Jon Snow suddenly sitting up and taking a deep gasp of air and cut to black.

 

I'm basically babbling here because after that final scene its like... yeah, all this stuff we've been making look important... forget it all because SHIT. JUST. GOT. REAL.

 

Jon will most likely still get the Pink Letter. If Sansa and Theon escapes it is obvious that Ramsey would think that they might go to Jon. If he writes to Jon and tells him to return Sansa and Theon, and threatens to attack the Night's Watch, then Jon would not really have much of a choice but to ride out and meet Ramsay somewhere in the field. Castle Black can simply not be guarded from the South, if Ramsay attacks the Nights Watch from the South then they are all dead. 

 

If Jon rallies the Wildlings or the rest of the Nights Watch members see that the Wildlings are listening and following Jon, then it could make them very suspicious of Jon's motives. It would look to them as if Jon is the new King Beyond the Wall.

Of course in actually fact the true Nights Watch vows says absolutely nothing about not taking part in the politics of the realm, it is more of an unspoken rule or agreement. I think Jon would have to decide to break his vows for the greater good of protecting the realms of men. I think the King Crow reference is a sneaky shout-out or recognition to Mormont's raven, who called Jon, King, a few times and who some people believe are being warged by Bloodraven.  

 

I am not convinced that Jon will actually die, I think he could just be gravely injured. But the situation with Stannis is interesting. When Melisandre's talked about her vision the previous week, she actually said a very interesting thing to Stannis. She told Stannis she is certain that he will win this battle because she saw herself walking on top of the battlements of Winterfell. The interesting thing is that she said herself, she did not actually say that she saw Stannis. So Stannis might be in a very dangerous position right now, perhaps Melisandre will still go back to the wall before the end of the season. 

 

  

Is it not obvious, considering the way Jon's character is developing? Leadership skills? Check. Combat? Check. Making allies? Check. So far he's only warred against Wildlings so we don't have too much of him re: battlefield strategy. The only big missing thing at this point is, he has no desire for the Iron Throne.

 

Which ironically makes him the perfect ruler, but I do think that he would hate to be King.  

[paramitch]

First off, I admit it: I was gobsmacked. What a visually devastating and gorgeous episode. And best of all,Winter finally came! Yeah! It only took 5 years!

 

I definitely thought this was one of the all-time best episodes of the show, not least because it dealt with the truly immediate issues that the other battling crowns have totally overlooked. (WINTER! Here!) And I'm really starting to warm to Jon and Kit Harington (typically a weak link for me -- I don't care so much about pretty if they can act). But Harington has really upped his game this season -- kudos.

 

Hardhome was one of the most amazing things I've seen on TV or film...totally riveting. Loved the build-up with the hostile arrival, the meeting of the elders, and that terrific wilding woman leader. Then what looked like an ice storm, and the charge of the wights. When they closed the gates, the silence of those left behind was chilling. I was worried for Torment, Jon and especially Edd. Agree with the posters above, the Walker King recognized Jon...he was fixated on him.

I agree with the kudos -- and that first faint snow and thunder, the silence of the crowds at the gates, the race to the water -- will stay with me for a long time. However. I felt like the Night King didn't focus on Jon or recognize anything unusual until he had beaten the Walker -- all of a sudden, this made him worthy of notice, and it seemed like that was why the King character came down to the waterfront -- as a display of power.

 

And I must also give the show props for making me believe GRRM *had* an end game in mind rather than just planning on writing sideways forever. I see a lot of you had put the pieces together better than I ever did, but by the end of whatever book I gave up on (circa where do the whores go) it felt like a hopeless pointless muddle.

The irony for me is that GRRM has been saying that "winter is coming" for YEARS now. It took the show to finally show that winter is here. I don't always love the producers' choices (and suspect every scene in which naked women stand around listlessly since the reports that a "Producer" 'requires those scenes for the pervs in the audience'), especially the past year or so -- but this was spectacular. Well done to all.

 

According to IMDb the Wildling Chieftainess was played by Birgitte Hjorth Sorensen.  She's from Denmank and OMG she's in Pitch Perfect 2.  Now that's what I call range.

She was fantastic. Even if her character's entire arc was "kick-ass mom." More on that in a moment...

 

Funny thing is she had more character development in those fifteen minutes than most of the main characters combined this season.

I liked her very much, and was so sad she was just a redshirt after all. What a waste of a wonderful actress -- the show could use more of them, honestly.

 

Dany and Tyrion was even more fun than I expected.  Poor Jorah.  Poor, poor Jorah.

 

I don't get it either.  Ned may have been "nice" to Theon but Theon was still his prisoner.  Had Balon acted up Ned would have cut Theon's head off.  He owed none of the Starks any loyalty.

I absolutely disagree with the take that Ned would have easily beheaded Theon for an agreement. The Ned we met was honor-bound but to his own standards not those of others. Theon was raised as a fellow princeling, not as a captive, no matter what retcons GRRM may have put into play. If anything, Theon was MORE conscious of status than the other boys, not less -- MORE arrogant, not less. I absolutely disagree that he would have ever been in real danger from Ned. Sorry.

 

And I certainly think the Stark kids (minus maybe Jon, who doesn't like him in the book) loved him. Robb certainly does.

I think Theon is one of Martin's most interesting, complex characters. And Alfie Allen plays the heck out of him. 

I agree with both of these sentiments, and also that Ned's greatest power in Theon wasn't to cultivate an ENEMY, but to cultivate a friend and ally. And it basically worked, but the Ironborn are so weird (and Theon had such issues) that Ned even beyond the grave couldn't quite overcome Theon's innate feelings of worthlessness and dishonor. He was secretly a Stark but in order to get his father's love, he gave up that identity only to realize how useless the "Theon" identity was. That's why for me his loss of identity to Ramsay is so tragic -- I believe he is totally sincere that he sees and recognizes all his mistakes, that there is nothing left for him now that Robb and Ned are betrayed and gone. I do believe Theon loved the Starks almost more than they loved themselves, and that with them he was the prince he never would have been (terribly ironic) under his own father's rule.

 

A lot of people cried "sexism" the last few episodes and I really didn't see it. It was just bad things happening to people, like it always does on this show, and it just happened to be a woman in this case. This episode I do see it and nobody else seems to. That a badass warrior woman is unable to fight against some zombies, just because they happened to have been kids once, is pretty insulting, imo. Especially since she has got her own kids to get back to, who she knows aren't 100% save with the crows.

I was unsure of this but watched it again and now agree 100% with this point of view. It was an utterly sexist, pointless arc. Yes, she was a warrior but before that she was a "mom." We see it at every major point for her: She is introduced as a Mom. She is the main focus when discussing generations. She is also the main focus when Jon directs every single line about children directly to her alone (I watched twice just to make sure).

 

Then she sends off her kids -- THEN after fighting hordes like a warrior is totally unmanned by the kid wights. Which pissed me off. I really really hated this choice and agree with those that it was a clumsy and very sexist way of showing "oh, no, poor wildling Mom couldn't fight dead kids!"

 

I would have vastly preferred they cut this whole sequence out. It was clumsy and unnecessary. I felt really insulted by it (but then again, I love this show except when it's reminding me that girls are nothing more than rape victims, potential rape victims, propelled by their uteruses, or they have great tits. (Oh, but if you're old and sexless then you can be "witty" like the Queen of Thorns.)

 

I love the show but increasingly, I feel like the producers are utterly clueless about their very sexist biases. The funny thing is, most of them occur in adaptation. I really don't love GRRM's writing (I find it serviceable but not beautiful, and think he writes the world's worst love scenes), but he absolutely goes out of his way in this series to empower women, children, and handicapped characters who normally would not headline an epic. And I love that. But the show then goes out of its way to minimize all those plot threads and to reduce so many characters down to their basic fairytale male/female essential roles, and it's so boring and upsetting.

 

I love this show. I loved this episode. I just wish that, right in the middle, the producers hadn't gone out of their way to accomplish yet another utterly horrific reminder that they do not understand women at all and only regard them as vessels for other characters. The only one they like or talk about is Dany and she's an arrogant idiot who talks mostly in useless pronouncements. When she said she would break the wheel I wanted to laugh -- as always, she is so black and white that we already know that "I will break the wheel" is shorthand for, "if everyone doesn't bow down before me, everyone will pay, and then I'll just look bewildered and feel really bad about it."

[Avaleigh]

I absolutely disagree with the take that Ned would have easily beheaded Theon for an agreement. The Ned we met was honor-bound but to his own standards not those of others. Theon was raised as a fellow princeling, not as a captive, no matter what retcons GRRM may have put into play. If anything, Theon was MORE conscious of status than the other boys, not less -- MORE arrogant, not less. I absolutely disagree that he would have ever been in real danger from Ned. Sorry.

I agree that Ned wouldn't have done it "easily" but he would have done it because he would have seen it as his duty. GRRM has said as much. Then IMO Ned would have gone to the godswood and been moody for awhile and Catelyn would have comforted him and told him that he'd done the right thing. The biggest problem to me in this scenario would have been Robb. Jon and the girls wouldn't have protested too much I don't think, but Robb and Bran would definitely have done whatever they could to keep Ned from following through. 

[Oscirus]

Maybe Bran would've but Robb is his father's son when not thinking with his penis.

I always found that training the heir to the ironlands to be nicer to be such a stupid thing to do. Ned was basically feeding Theon to the wolves as soon as he returned to his homeland.

[wayne67]

Theon was a prisoner of the Starks. He was mocked by a whore and an old Maester for having delusions of standing. He had no servants, he had no place and as far as I can tell he owes the Starks nothing for being relatively nice to him. As for Ned, he chopped the head off the first guy to survive a White Walker attack because of his obligations to kill deserters.

 

Theon ran rampant the first time he was let off the proverbial leash and he suffered badly for it. He didn't even get his own doggy because noone cared enough to give him one.

Edited June 3, 2015 by wayne67

[paramitch]

Avaleigh, ack, I just don't agree. I know GRRM has said (years later) that Ned would have done it, but the Ned I met in the books and show would -- I feel -- have gone out of his way to find another solution rather than to butcher an innocent boy.

 

I totally realize it's in the eye of the beholder (which makes it more fun!), but I just do not agree that Ned would have ever killed Theon as a blameless noble hostage who had grown up with his boys from infancy. If anything, the books make his status far less important than the show has done -- we barely register that Theon is a "guest" in the first book, for instance, and to me, I found it interesting (and believable) that he was the most arrogant and high-acting of any of them in compensation.

 

And I do think part of why Ned wouldn't have done it -- beyond a dozen other reasons and Ned being Ned -- would have been because of Robb and Bran, especially. If he wasn't willing to give up Cersei and Joffrey to death and usurpation (richly deserved), I have to think he would've spared Theon.

 

But then this is totally speculation. I just don't think Ned had it in him. And I love him for that. Now, after Theon took Winterfell? Yes, I think Ned would've punished and regretfully beheaded him ASAP. But not before then. 

ETA: Last but not least: I was a bit annoyed by the producers' smugness over Tyrion & Dany bonding over "terrible fathers" and how alike this made them. How? Dany's father died before her conscious memories. Tyrion was hated lifelong for completely different reasons. Yes, both were unappreciated and undervalued, but this was a bit too glib for me. Dany's father was flat-out crazy and she worshipped his memory until literally 3 episodes or so ago. Tyrion's father hated him lifelong and was an asshole but a terrific strategist. There is literally nothing the two share in common there. I would have preferred them bonding over their real similarities -- as the "weak ones," as the last people any traditional Westerosi would expect to be the ones to rule.

Edited June 3, 2015 by paramitch

[Oscirus]

Ned killed his daughter's beloved dog who didn't do anything just to appease Cersei, I doubt  he would've had any qualms killing Theon with or without sons' approval.

 

Not to mention the fact that not killing Theon would've made Ned look weak as shit and other people in general wouldn't have respected him. Ned may not have been smart or a politician but he was definitely a leader who knew how to inspire respect.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Oscirus

[The Mormegil]

The thing is, the White Walkers seem really self-aware and sentient, not just mindless killers like in the book. They seem to have a plan. And they dress in clothes and arm themselves... I wonder if anyone has ever tried to 'sit down', as in a war council, with one, and what would be that outcome? Do they even have language?

 

They are described as wearing armour (seemingly made from ice) in the books and use swords (again seemingly made from ice). A lot of people were annoyed when the first clear shot of a WW in the show just had him wearing a loin cloth and carrying a spear. This wasn't the armour wearing/ sword weildng eldritch being described in the books.

 

 

What we are seeing with the Night King is closer to the book description not further away.

Edited June 3, 2015 by The Mormegil

[Boudicea]

Theon was a prisoner of the Starks. He was mocked by a whore and an old Maester for having delusions of standing. He had no servants, he had no place and as far as I can tell he owes the Starks nothing for being relatively nice to him. As for Ned, he chopped the head off the first guy to survive a White Walker attack because of his obligations to kill deserters.

 

Theon ran rampant the first time he was let off the proverbial leash and he suffered badly for it. He didn't even get his own doggy because noone cared enough to give him one.

 

Theon was a Ward of the Starks and he was treated as such, that is far different from being a prisoner. Ned was completely duty bound and if it came to it he would have done his duty and executed Theon. However, when you actually look at the political landscape it would have been much better for the North and the Crown if they just deposed Balon, and put Theon in his place. That would have given everyone a nice new alliance, and that is properly what would have happened if Balon rebelled again.

 

Being mocked by a whore, really? That was exactly the problem with Theon, he was still acting like a teenager, why would any mature man worry about being mocked by a whore? 

 

Theon was treated as one would expect the heir of the Iron Islands to be treated, in other words he was treated according to his status. He had servants, he and Robb was constantly together, he received the same training and education as the heir of Winterfell. He would not have received that same education on Pyke. At diners and ceremonies he was treated according to his rank, whilst Jon Snow for example had to hang out with the common guards. Even Theon thinks to himself that Jon is jealous of him because he gets better treatment then Jon. Theon also reflected how his older brothers always to beat him, and that it was actually much better in Winterfell.

 

The Starks are one of oldest and noblest houses in the realm many other houses would have been happy to send their children there as wards. I am not saying Theon should be forever grateful to Starks and see them as his family or something. But Theon wasn't a boy anymore when he left Robb to go back to the Iron Island but he certainly acted like a child and quite stupidly, he didn't really to earn anything he had the idea that the rest of the world owned him something. 

Edited June 3, 2015 by Boudicea

[wayne67]

Theon's cage was a gilded one. Sure it looked nice from the outside but he still wasn't allowed to wander away from his captors. He wasn't allowed to visit his family. He was at the mercy of the Starks as to whether they'd hold him accountable for his father's actions. He was deprived the chance to learn of his family and his culture. He didn't even know he had a sister...

 

Robb was deluded to think that after 9 ? years of being their human hostage/bargaining chip that he'd be a good dog and go fetch his father's support for Robb's war.

 

If Theon was treated as a real noble or a real ward then Ned would have gone to some effort to find him a suitable match for marriage. However when all is said and done Theon would have been the Ward of the Starks until Balon died and maybe beyond that. That's not a wardship it's imprisonment with no chance of parole.

[DigitalCount]

Re: Karsi, I don't actually think this is a sexism thing, mainly because an interview I read said the character would have been a man if not for rewrites. I can't remember why they decided to change it, but I'm glad they did, given the huge impact the character had with so little screen time.

[patchwork]

My memory of what Cersei was charged with in the books is fuzzy but surely regicide isn't something that can be made right with a confession/walk of shame?

[blixie]

 

Theon was a Ward of the Starks and he was treated as such, that is far different from being a prisoner. Ned was completely duty bound and if it came to it he would have done his duty and executed Theon. However, when you actually look at the political landscape it would have been much better for the North and the Crown if they just deposed Balon, and put Theon in his place. That would have given everyone a nice new alliance, and that is properly what would have happened if Balon rebelled again.

 

I agree I think Ned, honorable duty bound Ned, would have executed Theon if commanded to do so, but Theon was not treated *as* a prisoner, he was treated like a lordling, and as Theon noted was accorded more status than Jon because he was legitimate. That was the rub, he was raised by a good noble, respected house, but he was betwixt two worlds, he was raised to be a good ally to the Realm, but he wasn't raised by the Ironborn to lead the Ironborn, and even if Balon was deposed, knowing the Ironborn Theon would still have been a failure. He was neither fully Stark, nor fully Ironborn, and thus betrayed and failed both.

 

 

but surely regicide isn't something that can be made right with a confession/walk of shame?

In the books the Walk of Shame, doesn't make the regicide right, she still has to undergo trial, and she chooses trial by combat first pinning her hopes on one handed Jamie, and then on headless Gregor. Her contrition just makes her imprisonment less harsh, clothes, food, most importantly visitors, so she confesses to all the sex with the Lancel/Kettleblacks, but denies the murder charges.

Edited June 3, 2015 by blixie

[Avaleigh]

And I do think part of why Ned wouldn't have done it -- beyond a dozen other reasons and Ned being Ned -- would have been because of Robb and Bran, especially. If he wasn't willing to give up Cersei and Joffrey to death and usurpation (richly deserved), I have to think he would've spared Theon.

 

But then this is totally speculation. I just don't think Ned had it in him. And I love him for that. Now, after Theon took Winterfell? Yes, I think Ned would've punished and regretfully beheaded him ASAP. But not before then. 

ETA: Last but not least: I was a bit annoyed by the producers' smugness over Tyrion & Dany bonding over "terrible fathers" and how alike this made them. How? Dany's father died before her conscious memories. Tyrion was hated lifelong for completely different reasons. Yes, both were unappreciated and undervalued, but this was a bit too glib for me. Dany's father was flat-out crazy and she worshipped his memory until literally 3 episodes or so ago. Tyrion's father hated him lifelong and was an asshole but a terrific strategist. There is literally nothing the two share in common there. I would have preferred them bonding over their real similarities -- as the "weak ones," as the last people any traditional Westerosi would expect to be the ones to rule.

I know Ned thinks he was being merciful by giving Ceresei and her children a chance to flee but they would likely have been toast if Robert had been told. Ned just gave them a chance to live. IMO it would have been a very small chance all things considered unless he gave her a decent head start and he definitely didn't seem like he was willing to do that. 

 

I agree with your comments about Dany and Tyrion and their fathers. 

[Alapaki]

I think there are two crucial plot elements that D&D have dropped the ball on this season:

 

1) the chaos of the power-vacuum left by Tywin's death, with Cersei's obsession to grab all of that power; and

 

2) the suffering and death still being experienced by the common people, especially in the Riverlands, because of the War.

 

Both of those are crucial elements in understanding the reemergence of the Faith Militant.

 

Septons and Septas are being slaughtered in the Riverlands, and peasants are crushing in on Kings Landing.  The Crown doesn't have the money to feed them or the arms to restrain them should they start to feel revolt-y.  The person who ultimately is elected High Septon/Sparrow comes to Kings Landing carrying the bones of the slaughters Septons and Septas.  

 

At the same time, Cersei is desperate for Tommen (who is still very, very young in the books) to be recognized as the legitimate King, amidst the rumors spread by Stannis about Tommen's parentage.  

 

That desperation drives Cersei to the new High Septon/Sparrow.  Their deal is that the Faith will recognize Tommen (thus making a move against Tommen a move against the Faith) in exchange for Cersei forgiving the huge monetary debt the Faith owes the Crown and the resurrection of the Faith Militant (which the High Sparrow presents as merely a way for the Faith to protect itself against the people murdering them out in the country).

 

That alone was a foreseeably stupid move by Cersei given the Faith Militant's history of animosity to the Crown.  And certainly showed that Cersei was not asking WWTywinD?  Tywin would've simply killed anyone who questioned Tommen's legitimacy.  But, at least there was a rationale for the move.

 

I think the justification provided by the show (Cersei empowers the Faith Militant solely as a way to get rid of Margery) completely changes the complexion of things.

 

I realize the trouble with including everything from the books, but D&D made a conscious decision to push Sansa's storyline far ahead of the books (at the cost of quite a bit of screen time) while sacrificing crucial elements of the book-stories they've chosen to include.  IMO, Sansa's return to Winterfell could very well have waited for next season (with perhaps just a scene or two to let us know what she's up to) and Brienne's and Pod's quest could've been used (as they were in the books) to elucidate the crucial backstory on the Faith Militant.

[Alapaki]

However, when you actually look at the political landscape it would have been much better for the North and the Crown if they just deposed Balon, and put Theon in his place. That would have given everyone a nice new alliance, and that is properly what would have happened if Balon rebelled again.

 

 

I'm not so sure about this.  The whole point of Theon going to Winterfell was to deter Balon from rebelling (with the threat that if he did so, his rightful heir would be killed).  

 

I can't see Robert, given what we know of him, suffering Theon to live if Balon had rebelled again.

 

But, even if Robert and Ned did agree to allow Theon to live after Balon rebelled and was defeated (at which point deterrence is moot), I think that if Theon was perceived to have been installed as Ward of the Iron Islands by the Throne and perceived to be sympathetic to the Throne, his uncles would've killed him.

[Constantinople]

I was unsure of this but watched it again and now agree 100% with this point of view. It was an utterly sexist, pointless arc. Yes, she was a warrior but before that she was a "mom." We see it at every major point for her: She is introduced as a Mom.

Karsi isn't introduced as a Mom, but as a member of the Council of Elders to whom Jon Snow is speaking.

 

Jon Snow: My name's Jon Snow. I'm Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. We're not friends. We've never been friends. We won't become friends today. This isn't about friendship. This is about survival. This is about putting a 700-foot wall between you and what's out there.

Karsi: You built that wall to keep us out.

Thenn: Since when do the crows give two shits if we live?

Jon: In normal times we wouldn't. But these aren't normal times. The white walkers don't care if a man's free folk or crow. We're all the same to them, meat for their army. But together we can beat them.

Karsi: Beat the white walkers? Good luck with that. Run from them, maybe.

Jon: It's not a trick. It's a gift for those who join us. Dragonglass. A man of the Night's Watch used one of these daggers to kill a walker.

Thenn: You saw this?

Jon: No. But I trust the man.

Karsi: There are old stories about dragonglass.

Thenn: There are old stories about ice spiders as big as hounds.

Karsi: And with the things we've seen, you don't believe them?

Note that Karsi is the first elder to speak. Nothing in that dialogue suggests "Mom", at least not to me.

 

She is the main focus when discussing generations. She is also the main focus when Jon directs every single line about children directly to her alone (I watched twice just to make sure).

Karsi is the main focus of the Council of Elders period. She talked more than the rest of the elders combined.

When Jon mentions children, it ties in with his and Tormund's theme about focusing on the future, not the past. Karsi was the one speaking immediately before Jon, so it's not surprising that Jon responded to her. Perhaps it would have been less sexist if Jon had completely ignored her.

[blixie]

 

Karsi isn't introduced as a Mom, but as a member of the Council of Elders to whom Jon Snow is speaking.

 

Correct, she was introduced as leader they were having to negotiate with, and Karsi putting her children on the boat but staying behind to FIGHT is the opposite of sexist, she's doing what the any male Wildling warrior would do. On the other hand I can see how that scene with the kids reads as being about how women are moved by their womb and feelings when a man wouldn't be, but I think the scene was shot in a way that for me just drove home how CREEPY the children were, that she was rendered immobile by shock and horror v. empathy for the undead kids. But contextually since they DID cast the role with a woman the scene should have been reconsidered and made clearer why she was rendered ineffectual, especially when John et al are rendered just as stunned by the actions of the Nights King.

[nksarmi]

Theon's cage was a gilded one. Sure it looked nice from the outside but he still wasn't allowed to wander away from his captors. He wasn't allowed to visit his family. He was at the mercy of the Starks as to whether they'd hold him accountable for his father's actions. He was deprived the chance to learn of his family and his culture. He didn't even know he had a sister...

 

Robb was deluded to think that after 9 ? years of being their human hostage/bargaining chip that he'd be a good dog and go fetch his father's support for Robb's war.

 

If Theon was treated as a real noble or a real ward then Ned would have gone to some effort to find him a suitable match for marriage. However when all is said and done Theon would have been the Ward of the Starks until Balon died and maybe beyond that. That's not a wardship it's imprisonment with no chance of parole.

Robb and Theon considered each other best friends/brothers - I believe that on both sides this was true.  I don't think Robb was a fool for letting Theon go recruit his father, nor was Theon a fool for thinking he could.  The foolish thing was Ned not making it more clear to both young men just what the Ironborn and Balon would be like.  So Robb would have known to listen to his mother when she counseled against it - not because Theon couldn't be trusted, but because Balon simply wouldn't go for it.

 

I honestly believe that Theon thought his father would perceive his return as a good thing.  I don't blame Theon for being godsmacked up side the head when he found out that his father thought he was soft and decided to go to war against the Starks rather than join them.  He had not be raised to understand his father or his people.  Once there, of course Theon wanted to prove himself to his father rather than Robb - I understand that as well.  Theon was torn between two worlds and needed to choose who he was - his inability to choose is what lead to him becoming Reek (though I don't think he deserved that).  He might just be the saddest of all creatures on the show and I hope he gets the Faceless' god's mercy at some point very soon.

[Haleth]

You could write a book on the psychology of Theon.

He was treated very well while growing up. He certainly was in a more wholesome place and witnessed (if not experienced) familial love. If he was subjected to any mocking from whores or servants it was because he was, well, a dick to everyone not named Robb.

[Pogojoco]

If Theon is just a prisoner, why is it considered such a betrayal by all Westeros? Also, in the show, Theon is one of the first to bend the knee to Robb in the King of the North scene. He doesn't betray the Starks because he was just waiting for his moment. he goes to Balon with the intention of being treated like the heir and that he'd meet a Lord like Ned.

[lucindabelle]

I honestly find the cries of "sexism" because a warrior who happened to be a woman was momentarily stunned by creepy zombie kids to be rather sexist themselves.

 

Tormund mentioned his daughters. Karsi never mentioned her kids, finding she had some when she put them in the boat was a surprise. She spoke as an elder, a warrior. She fought like Hell.

 

She had JUSt seen her kids off, and zombies her own kids' age appeared.

I think that would have stopped anybody, male or female, in their tracks for a second. The zombies also paused, and that too stopped her-- they didn't come at her, they stood and stared.

 

I don't think it's fair that if a woman shows any feelings she's seen as an example of sexism on the part of the producers. Felt the same way about people objecting to Gilly's deciding to make love to Sam. It was clearly her decision.

 

 

[Pogojoco]

I honestly find the cries of "sexism" because a warrior who happened to be a woman was momentarily stunned by creepy zombie kids to be rather sexist themselves.

Tormund mentioned his daughters. Karsi never mentioned her kids, finding she had some when she put them in the boat was a surprise. She spoke as an elder, a warrior. She fought like Hell.

She had JUSt seen her kids off, and zombies her own kids' age appeared.

I think that would have stopped anybody, male or female, in their tracks for a second. The zombies also paused, and that too stopped her-- they didn't come at her, they stood and stared.

I don't think it's fair that if a woman shows any feelings she's seen as an example of sexism on the part of the producers. Felt the same way about people objecting to Gilly's deciding to make love to Sam. It was clearly her decision.

Plus, several instances of Jon being gobsmacked to the point of freezing and once needing Ed to snap him out of it. Also, ROW!!!!!!!!

The only thing that annoyed me about Karsi is that they killed her so soon.

[BlackberryJam]

Can we accuse Jon of having gonad freeze when he looked at the wights and imagined Ygritte? Hmmm?

[hammaboo]

Ned killed his daughter's beloved dog who didn't do anything just to appease Cersei, I doubt  he would've had any qualms killing Theon with or without sons' approval.

 

Not to mention the fact that not killing Theon would've made Ned look weak as shit and other people in general wouldn't have respected him. Ned may not have been smart or a politician but he was definitely a leader who knew how to inspire respect.

 

Lady was going to be killed regardless since they couldn't find Nymeria, but Robert had been planning to have it done by Ilyn Payne.  Ned said no, that he was going to do it and send her north for a proper burial.   

 

No matter what, Lady wasn't going to survive book one/the first season.

[LadyArcadia]

Anyway, Cersei is beautiful. You'd think she could find someone to have sexytimes with that wasn't on her family tree.

 

Probably Moon Boy for all I know..

[Skeeter22]

Lady was going to be killed regardless since they couldn't find Nymeria, but Robert had been planning to have it done by Ilyn Payne. Ned said no, that he was going to do it and send her north for a proper burial.

No matter what, Lady wasn't going to survive book one/the first season.

Ned could have sent Lady back to Winterfell and Robert wouldn't have cared. He did the wrong thing, and he knew it in the end.

As far as "crying sexism", which is a really demeaning phrase, the show made a choice to have the only named female warrior be struck frozen by the sight of child wights. She was completely incapable of defending herself, despite having her own children to protect. Why not make Tormund be overrun by the children? He mentioned his own daughters in this episode.

[InsertWordHere]

You'd think we would catch on finally. GRRM left Jon being stabbed to death. Despite all the speculation that he might survive, or be brought back as a revenant by the power of the red god, we have no guarantee that he will just be left dead dead in the remaining books. Of course since GRRM hasn't required the show to follow events that closely, show Jon probably gets the benefit of show tropes and therefor will live.

You're right we have no guarantee, however, I don't think people are wrong to speculate that he might survive. GRRM has given just as many last minute saves as he has surprise deaths. The Manderlys beheaded Davos, and put his head on the walls! Oh wait! That was just some criminal that looked like him. Arya lost consciousness outside the Red Wedding, oh no! Turns out, the Hound knocked her out with an ax. Bran and Rickon were burnt and hung from the walls of Winterfell, but it was only "just" the Miller's Boys (thanks a lot Theon!). Jon Con was supposed to have died of drink, and according to him, Aegon isn't dead either. Even Cat is not as dead as she seemed. Same with FrankenGregor. 

 

Book readers speculate wildly that Syrio is alive or Rhaegar is alive or so and so is alive, and we speculate so much that it's gotten a bit out of hand, but is it really that crazy for us to do so when GRRM has taken characters back from the hands of death so many times?

Edited June 3, 2015 by InsertWordHere