Season 6: Info, Casting and Spoilers

[SeanC]

40 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Deadline is hearing that Jon, Tyrion, Dany, Cersei and Jaime's actors will all be paid more than $500K per episode in Season 7 and are signing on for a possible Season 8 (although the author cautions that that's no guarantee of survival since Season 8 hasn't been written yet).

Personally, I think Season 7 is going to be Cersei's last, from the apparent pace of her story -- though considering how much D&D clearly love Lena, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if they kept her around as long as possible.  As for Jaime, I'm sure he kills Cersei.  Whether he dies in doing so, or lives a bit longer, I don't know (Jaime is so transparently the kind of character who dies in stories like this that it would be a huge twist he if actually lived).

The other three are obviously in it til the finale, whatever their fates in that particular episode.

[Statman]

Javi hasn't broken a single spoiler that wasn't already out there so forgive me if I don't buy into any of his so called spoilers.  

[Minneapple]

So I guess this means all those actors survive 6x10. Jaime at the Twins in the promo had me wondering. But, I suppose it would make no narrative sense to kill him off before he sees Cersei again. 

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

 As for Jaime, I'm sure he kills Cersei.  Whether he dies in doing so, or lives a bit longer, I don't know (Jaime is so transparently the kind of character who dies in stories like this that it would be a huge twist he if actually lived).

I think Jaime kills Cersei -- to stop her from killing someone else or something like that -- and then dies himself. Book-wise, that would complete his redemption arc. Show-wise, I guess it would just cap off whatever mess of an arc he's been given and sort of redeems him. And I do think they both survive until quite late in the series. 

At this point I think only Jon, Dany, Sansa and Tyrion are safe for the series finale. Although lately I've been leaning toward Sansa dying before the end. Maybe Arya makes it and Sansa doesn't. 

[FemmyV]

On 6/20/2016 at 1:01 PM, Hanahope said:

I believe Walder Frey is still a potential enemy (and his allies) because Ramsay spread a rumor that Fat Walda and baby were 'killed by his enemies', i.e. those loyal to the Starks.  So as far as Walder Frey believes, Jon/Sansa and their allies killed his daughter and grandson.  Plus they probably assume, at least at this time, that the Lannisters are also their enemy, plus possibly the Tyrells, since the North/Jon/Sansa will still try to secede.  Certainly Jon knows the WW are still a threat and believes most will not support him in battling that.

Whomever was serving as Maester for the Boltons has the ability to spread the word about Walda, Roose, etc.

[Oscirus]

When are the other actors going to let Sophie and Maise on the cool kid bus? :p

[Eyes High]

The Season 6 soundtrack has been digitally released. "The Winds of Winter" seems to mix the Dany theme with the Greyjoy theme at the beginning. Does this mean that the last scene will be Dany finally, finally, finally leaving Meereen?

"The Light of the Seven" seems apt for Cersei's trial. Some interesting instrumentation (piano and what sounds like organ).

"Trust Each Other" has a more martial feel than I would have thought, with a lot of drums.

[SeanC]

14 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

"Trust Each Other" has a more martial feel than I would have thought, with a lot of drums.

I was confused by that, because it definitely doesn't sound like a conversation, but on closer examination I think it's actually the track to the Arryn cavalry charge in 609.

[Chris24601]

9 hours ago, Minneapple said:

At this point I think only Jon, Dany, Sansa and Tyrion are safe for the series finale. Although lately I've been leaning toward Sansa dying before the end. Maybe Arya makes it and Sansa doesn't. 

Just what do you see Sansa dying from though? She's probably going to spend the rest of the series at Winterfell (a secure location), she's not a fighter so she's not going to be heading into any battles and once Jon is named King in the North her value as a political target is non-existent (i.e. there's no gain to killing her).

Having her caught in an undead horde just doesn't have any narrative weight to it. It's the "Rock Falls, Everyone Dies" of storytelling... interesting only in the sacrifices made to save others. But Sansa lacks the strength, fighting prowess or magical talents necessary to hold back the undead and just about anyone she'd be willing to die for would have already insisted on dying for her instead (and would have a better chance of succeeding in slowing the undead down).

Other than Cersie, anyone wanting vengeance on her for personal reasons is already dead. The Mountain (the most likely implement of Cersie's vengeance) killing Sansa doesn't hold any weight either; Monster kills girl is not dramatic. Its particularly not dramatic when there's a Hound likely coming North in the near future as well (Sandor killing Gregor to save Sansa and then dying from his wounds in Sansa's arms on the other hand is pitch perfect).

Of the two girls, I think Arya is far more likely to perish simply because she's a fighter/assassin and therefore more likely to be up close and personal with someone who might be able to kill her. IF (and I stress IF) Arya's end is to die then I see her making one last all-important kill in the final battle that saves one or more members of her family, but being fatally wounded in the process. That would be a death with proper dramatic weight to it. More likely though is that Rickon is the last Stark to die and Jon, Sansa, Arya and Bran all make it through to the end.

By contrast, specifically because she is NOT a fighter, there's no premature end for Sansa that isn't her just being a victim... just some extra fridging of a female character for shock value.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Chris24601

[BlackberryJam]

9 hours ago, Minneapple said:

So I guess this means all those actors survive 6x10. Jaime at the Twins in the promo had me wondering. But, I suppose it would make no narrative sense to kill him off before he sees Cersei again. 

I think Jaime kills Cersei -- to stop her from killing someone else or something like that -- and then dies himself. Book-wise, that would complete his redemption arc. Show-wise, I guess it would just cap off whatever mess of an arc he's been given and sort of redeems him. And I do think they both survive until quite late in the series. 

At this point I think only Jon, Dany, Sansa and Tyrion are safe for the series finale. Although lately I've been leaning toward Sansa dying before the end. Maybe Arya makes it and Sansa doesn't. 

 

This drives me a little crazy. Jaime has unfinished business with Bran and Tyrion. He does not have unfinished business with Cersei, unless you believe the silly valonqar thing, which has been totally cut from the show. Jaime won't die until he saves a Stark life and reunites with Tyrion. Cersei could go at any time.

[SeanC]

Just now, BlackberryJam said:

He does not have unfinished business with Cersei, unless you believe the silly valonqar thing, which has been totally cut from the show. 

Cutting the prophecy doesn't mean they cut the result; they cut all the prophecies about the Red Wedding, but that still happened.

"Maester" is an interesting track.

[Chris24601]

2 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

This drives me a little crazy. Jaime has unfinished business with Bran and Tyrion. He does not have unfinished business with Cersei, unless you believe the silly valonqar thing, which has been totally cut from the show. Jaime won't die until he saves a Stark life and reunites with Tyrion. Cersei could go at any time.

Agreed. When I rewatched the farewell scene between Cersei and Jaime when he left for Riverrun it really felt like it was foreshadowing them never seeing each other again. The Valonqar prophecy was removed for a reason and, unlike the prophecy for the Red Wedding and similar, that was a prophecy that really helped inform Cersei's motivations and was still vague enough to be open to interpretation. As such I think the main reason for leaving it out was that all the other dropped elements made her book death impossible (ex. Aegon is the younger brother of the girl who would likely have been a younger, more beautiful queen someday had she not been murdered by one of Tywin's men).

The only reason for there to be Jaime/Cersei reunion is if you think Jaime's motivations for abandoning Cersei are going to matter to his end game. It could just as easily be on the show that he only moves on from Cersei because she's dead.

I also don't know that he needs to particular save a Stark life, at least on the show. He equipped Brienne and sent her on the mission to save Sansa (who would be dead or hanging on a cross being slowly tortured to death if not for Brienne's timely arrival), which Brienne accomplished.

He COULD do more to help the Starks certainly, but from a narrative standpoint I think Tyrion is the only truly unfinished business for Jaime at this stage.

[BlackberryJam]

8 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Agreed. When I rewatched the farewell scene between Cersei and Jaime when he left for Riverrun it really felt like it was foreshadowing them never seeing each other again. The Valonqar prophecy was removed for a reason and, unlike the prophecy for the Red Wedding and similar, that was a prophecy that really helped inform Cersei's motivations and was still vague enough to be open to interpretation. As such I think the main reason for leaving it out was that all the other dropped elements made her book death impossible (ex. Aegon is the younger brother of the girl who would likely have been a younger, more beautiful queen someday had she not been murdered by one of Tywin's men).

The only reason for there to be Jaime/Cersei reunion is if you think Jaime's motivations for abandoning Cersei are going to matter to his end game. It could just as easily be on the show that he only moves on from Cersei because she's dead.

I also don't know that he needs to particular save a Stark life, at least on the show. He equipped Brienne and sent her on the mission to save Sansa (who would be dead or hanging on a cross being slowly tortured to death if not for Brienne's timely arrival), which Brienne accomplished.

He COULD do more to help the Starks certainly, but from a narrative standpoint I think Tyrion is the only truly unfinished business for Jaime at this stage.

I would agree with you about the Starks up until Bran re-entered the story. I don't know if Bran will go back in time and push Jaime to kill the Mad King or what, but I think there is unfinished Stark business for Jaime. I think either Jaime saves Bran or Bran leads Jaime to save Arya. 

I have also been leaning towards Bran controlling Jaime's weirwood dream that lead him back to Brienne.

Bran's abilities really altered my view on many things.

[nksarmi]

I think we will know more about Jamie's story after the next episode. I would be thrilled if both book and show Jamie never saw Cersei again. I want Jamie and Brie to end up with the BWOB and head North because I want them involved in the end battle. I think Jamie will die in Brie's arms and I HOPE it's saving Bran's life.

I have come to think it would be most excellent if Tyrion is in fact the little brother that kills Cersei. Not because he always would have been, but because the whole thing becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy that Cersei orchestrated. I mean wasn't Cersei always going to be replaced by a "young, more beautiful" queen when her son became king? The little brother killing her happening because she made him an enemy through her own mistreatment? That would be perfect.

And if we assume that Tommen is about to die because Cersei does something with the Wildfire that was alluded to two episodes ago, then that completes the trifecta. She is responsible for all of her children's early deaths. First, she raised Joffrey to be a monster which led to his eventual murder, but she also killed Robert B at the wrong time. I'm sure she felt trapped, but if she was the master manipulator she thinks she is - she could have thrown some shade LF's way or found a way to cast enough doubt in Ned's mind that he wouldn't go to Robert unless he was sure.

But even if we accept that she was trapped with Ned's death and all that followed - her dogged insistence that Tyrion killed Joffrey (even though it didn't make a ton of sense) - led to the trial by combat and Oberyn's eventual death which clearly put Myrcella in danger. She should have asked herself what was more important - her daughter or killing Tyrion? And now it looks like Cersei herself may put Tommen in danger - she sure as hell created the problem of the High Sparrow to begin with. The girl is all about destroying herself.

So with all that said, I think it would be brilliant if Tyrion IS the valaqor and Jamie actually never does see Cersei again.

[nodorothyparker]

1 hour ago, nksarmi said:

I think we will know more about Jamie's story after the next episode. I would be thrilled if both book and show Jamie never saw Cersei again. I want Jamie and Brie to end up with the BWOB and head North because I want them involved in the end battle. I think Jamie will die in Brie's arms and I HOPE it's saving Bran's life.

I have come to think it would be most excellent if Tyrion is in fact the little brother that kills Cersei. Not because he always would have been, but because the whole thing becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy that Cersei orchestrated. I mean wasn't Cersei always going to be replaced by a "young, more beautiful" queen when her son became king? The little brother killing her happening because she made him an enemy through her own mistreatment? That would be perfect.

And if we assume that Tommen is about to die because Cersei does something with the Wildfire that was alluded to two episodes ago, then that completes the trifecta. She is responsible for all of her children's early deaths. First, she raised Joffrey to be a monster which led to his eventual murder, but she also killed Robert B at the wrong time. I'm sure she felt trapped, but if she was the master manipulator she thinks she is - she could have thrown some shade LF's way or found a way to cast enough doubt in Ned's mind that he wouldn't go to Robert unless he was sure.

But even if we accept that she was trapped with Ned's death and all that followed - her dogged insistence that Tyrion killed Joffrey (even though it didn't make a ton of sense) - led to the trial by combat and Oberyn's eventual death which clearly put Myrcella in danger. She should have asked herself what was more important - her daughter or killing Tyrion? And now it looks like Cersei herself may put Tommen in danger - she sure as hell created the problem of the High Sparrow to begin with. The girl is all about destroying herself.

So with all that said, I think it would be brilliant if Tyrion IS the valaqor and Jamie actually never does see Cersei again.

C&Ping the entire thing just because this is how I've always seen it going too.  I know so much popular thinking is that Tyrion can't be Cersei's valonqar because "it's too obvious" and Martin would never write that way, but it's always made more sense to me that it would end up being a self-fulfilling prophecy that Cersei created her killer through her own awfulness and short-sighted decisions than to think Jaime is going to turn around from wherever he's going to come all the way back to Kings Landing for part 47 of Star-Crossed Incest Gone Bad.  Especially since book Jaime has pretty much already written her off as dead and the real story is going to be happening in the North, where I'm inclined to think he still has a part to play with Brienne and all the other characters heading that direction.  

The fact that Bran is obviously back now and seeing Jaime kill the Mad King is figuring into his visions strongly suggests to me that one or both of those things is going to factor into his eventual fate.

[Hecate7]

4 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Just what do you see Sansa dying from though? She's probably going to spend the rest of the series at Winterfell (a secure location), she's not a fighter so she's not going to be heading into any battles and once Jon is named King in the North her value as a political target is non-existent (i.e. there's no gain to killing her).

*snip!*

By contrast, specifically because she is NOT a fighter, there's no premature end for Sansa that isn't her just being a victim... just some extra fridging of a female character for shock value.

 

Arya kills Sansa for reasons which make sense at the time, (thinking she's Cersei, mistaking her for an attacker, something). OR Sansa sacrifices herself for Jon or Arya. Arya then uses Sansa's face to kill Littlefinger and Tyrion, then uses Littlefinger to kill Cersei and Tyrion to kill Dany. I doubt Arya's going to save Sansa. Nobody likes a victim. Except me, apparently. I rather like Sansa and always have. More likely you're right, and Sansa lives out her days at Winterfell after one more hitch related to Littlefinger.

[SeanC]

The first season finale photos:

1. Bran lying beside a weirwood tree.
2. The Dany/Tyrion scene from the promo.
3. The Davos scene from the promo.
4. The High Sparrow and Loras, from the promo.
5. Jaime and Walder Frey sitting down together; presumably a different scene than the big banquet, based on how they're sitting.
6. Jaime, Bronn and some Lannister riders; presumably on their way to the Twins.
7. Cersei, also from the promo.

[bunnyblue]

Is that a slice of pie on Walder Frey's plate? 

I don't think I've ever seen Davos look that angry. I have a bad feeling either Mel is going to be banished or  Davos will leave WF. I don't want either of those to happen because Jon needs both of them by his side. But, going forward, Mel & Davos can't possibly co-exist.

[Happy Harpy]

Anybody can die and characters are even less safe than ever. There were several very good and coherent explanations as to why Shireen wouldn't die and Stannis wouldn't accept that she was burned. Made 100% sense. See how it turned out.

Being presumed dead once won't save anyone (see:Rickon). Characters can die just because (see: Barristan, imo). Characters in a safe location can die (see: Lysa Tully). No one is safe. Mayyyybe Jon, since he was really really dead already (at least, I believe that's the official version, I'm not sure I heard it enough during the hiatus) and multiple deaths for realz would be very very cheap

If GRRM stuck to his original plan and D&D followed that plan, we know who the main survivors are. But deviations are possible so nothing is sure.

Not that it isn't fun -or nerve-wrenching, depending- to speculate, of course! But imo and no matter how much sense it makes, in the end it's all wishful thinking. I have my own, but I feel that all I can do is cross my fingers and hope that viewer's luck will be on my side.

The only character I truly worry about in the finale is Davos. And Jon's integrity, if he isn't truly disgusted at Mel for burning an innocent child. I don't see how this could end well if Melisandre's prediction about meeting Arya again is right and I'm gnawing my nails.

3 minutes ago, bunnyblue said:

Is that a slice of pie on Walder Frey's plate? 

I don't think I've ever seen Davos look that angry. I have a bad feeling either Mel is going to be banished or  Davos will leave WF. I don't want either of those to happen because Jon needs both of them by his side. But, going forward, Mel & Davos can't possibly co-exist.

Exactly. Davos did wait until after the battle, way after the battle, for the 'splaining. But unfortunately I think that S6 is too early for forgiveness.

I don't think that Jon needs Mel, though. She revived him (or did she, still hoping something else was at work) but I don't feel that she is useful to him. Her banishment would be the lesser evil for me.

[bunnyblue]

2 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

I don't think that Jon needs Mel, though. She revived him (or did she, still hoping something else was at work) but I don't feel that she is useful to him. Her banishment would be the lesser evil for me.

I still think Melisandre's magic could come in handy. All her visions came true, maybe there's still something useful that can be gleamed in the flames. Though, if Bran makes to WF in time, he could take on that role. I do agree that losing Mel would easier than losing Davos. But I wonder if Jon would subject a lone woman to uncertainty in a war torn country?

[SimoneS]

Stannis went to his doom following Mellisandre. Jon would be better off ignoring her and being advised by Davos, Tormund, and Sam. Regardless, I don't see him killing her. More likely he tells her that if she ever harms anyone or kills again, he will put the sword to her neck and not think twice about it.

[Minneapple]

8 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

 

This drives me a little crazy. Jaime has unfinished business with Bran and Tyrion. He does not have unfinished business with Cersei, unless you believe the silly valonqar thing, which has been totally cut from the show. Jaime won't die until he saves a Stark life and reunites with Tyrion. Cersei could go at any time.

What drives you a little crazy? My opinion? 

There are any number of ways that any character could die. And perhaps we should be prepared for anybody to die, Given GRRM's penchant for writing the unexpected and not tying storylines off neatly. 

Even if the prophesy didn't appear on the show, that doesn't mean Jaime won't kill Cersei. 

Edited June 22, 2016 by Minneapple

[Chris24601]

3 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

Anybody can die and characters are even less safe than ever. There were several very good and coherent explanations as to why Shireen wouldn't die and Stannis wouldn't accept that she was burned. Made 100% sense. See how it turned out.

See, the thing is 'anybody can die' is not actually true.

Plenty of supporting characters die, certainly (ex. Selmy and Shireen) but that happens in every action-drama series. GRRM may have a rep for subversion, but he's a pretty conventional storyteller when it comes to arcs the actual protagonists are on.

As proof... other than the parents and poor Will, name one viewpoint character from the first book who is currently dead despite all the potential times they could have died.

There aren't any. Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Sansa, Arya and Bran are all still alive despite each having been in multiple situations where 'reality ensues' could have led to their death. Heck, even Sam and Theon who are just supporting characters in the first book haven't died yet despite what they've been through.

Even the notable characters who have died have died in ways that pushed the narrative. Selmy didn't die because his horse tripped in a pothole and it rolled over on him. Shireen didn't die of pneumonia in an ill-supplied winter camp. Instead of such commonplace and completely realistic deaths, Selmy died to show the threat of the Harpies and deprive Dany of her most reasonable advisor to make room for Tyrion and Shireen was burned as the culmination of Stannis' fall and to bring us the Davos vs. Mel conflict that is coming next week.

And I'm sorry, but there's been foreshadowing since practically Shireen's first appearance that she was going end up being burned. She only existed as a character to service Davos' story and mark Stannis' descent.

Bringing this back to Sansa, narratively there's nothing to be gained by her death. Once Jon is King in the North her death won't shift any balance of power or teach us something new about how those around her deal with loss (We've already seen it multiple times with everyone still left). The only reason left after the finale this Sunday would be pure shock value which is basically the worst reason to kill a main character.

I think its telling that so far the only concrete "how would Sansa actually die?" argument I've seen basically amounts to "the most shocking person possible" for undefined "reasons" (ie. to be shocking).

GRRM has already demonstrated that he'll only kill major characters if there's a narrative purpose to it. For that reason I really do believe that Sansa will make it to the end of the story (as will Jon because there is nothing to gain in a narrative sense by actually killing a character off twice in the same story).

The ones I'm less certain of are Dany, Tyrion and Arya but after Meereen last week I even put them at 75% in terms of survival (and if any of those three do die it wouldn't be until the climax of the actual final battle of the series).

[nksarmi]

33 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

See, the thing is 'anybody can die' is not actually true.

Plenty of supporting characters die, certainly (ex. Selmy and Shireen) but that happens in every action-drama series. GRRM may have a rep for subversion, but he's a pretty conventional storyteller when it comes to arcs the actual protagonists are on.

As proof... other than the parents and poor Will, name one viewpoint character from the first book who is currently dead despite all the potential times they could have died.

There aren't any. Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Sansa, Arya and Bran are all still alive despite each having been in multiple situations where 'reality ensues' could have led to their death. Heck, even Sam and Theon who are just supporting characters in the first book haven't died yet despite what they've been through.

Even the notable characters who have died have died in ways that pushed the narrative. Selmy didn't die because his horse tripped in a pothole and it rolled over on him. Shireen didn't die of pneumonia in an ill-supplied winter camp. Instead of such commonplace and completely realistic deaths, Selmy died to show the threat of the Harpies and deprive Dany of her most reasonable advisor to make room for Tyrion and Shireen was burned as the culmination of Stannis' fall and to bring us the Davos vs. Mel conflict that is coming next week.

And I'm sorry, but there's been foreshadowing since practically Shireen's first appearance that she was going end up being burned. She only existed as a character to service Davos' story and mark Stannis' descent.

Bringing this back to Sansa, narratively there's nothing to be gained by her death. Once Jon is King in the North her death won't shift any balance of power or teach us something new about how those around her deal with loss (We've already seen it multiple times with everyone still left). The only reason left after the finale this Sunday would be pure shock value which is basically the worst reason to kill a main character.

I think its telling that so far the only concrete "how would Sansa actually die?" argument I've seen basically amounts to "the most shocking person possible" for undefined "reasons" (ie. to be shocking).

GRRM has already demonstrated that he'll only kill major characters if there's a narrative purpose to it. For that reason I really do believe that Sansa will make it to the end of the story (as will Jon because there is nothing to gain in a narrative sense by actually killing a character off twice in the same story).

The ones I'm less certain of are Dany, Tyrion and Arya but after Meereen last week I even put them at 75% in terms of survival (and if any of those three do die it wouldn't be until the climax of the actual final battle of the series).

Yes and GRRM will actually introduce new characters to kill off just so he doesn't have to kill his originals. :)

[Constantinople]

42 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

...GRRM may have a rep for subversion, but he's a pretty conventional storyteller when it comes to arcs the actual protagonists are on.

As proof... other than the parents and poor Will, name one viewpoint character from the first book who is currently dead despite all the potential times they could have died.

There aren't any. Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Sansa, Arya and Bran are all still alive despite each having been in multiple situations where 'reality ensues' could have led to their death.

Technically speaking, it appears that Jon is currently dead in the books and will likely remain that way for several years given the rate at which GRRM is working.

[Macbeth]

6 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

I have a bad feeling either Mel is going to be banished or  Davos will leave WF. I don't want either of those to happen because Jon needs both of them by his side. But, going forward, Mel & Davos can't possibly co-exist.

Jon can easily live without Mel.  Thoros of Myr is on his way  to  help with Beric.  Between Beric and Jon  - Thoros will have his work cut out for him. 

[Lemuria]

9 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

Just what do you see Sansa dying from though? She's probably going to spend the rest of the series at Winterfell (a secure location), she's not a fighter so she's not going to be heading into any battles and once Jon is named King in the North her value as a political target is non-existent (i.e. there's no gain to killing her).

 

When I first read that some posters thought Sansa would die by the end, I couldn't say no because with GoT, almost anyone could go at any time but I also couldn't see a particular reason why it would be Sansa.

Then I remembered the Azor Ahai legend.  Assuming for the moment that Jon is Azor Ahai--and there's a big "IF" in there--according to the legend, Azor Ahai could only bring Lightbringer into existence (as Lightbringer, rather than just another sword) by he bathing it in the blood of his wife (after trying animals), that is, someone he loved.  There aren't too many people other than Sansa that Jon loves that are still left alive.

[Constantinople]

15 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

When I first read that some posters thought Sansa would die by the end, I couldn't say no because with GoT, almost anyone could go at any time but I also couldn't see a particular reason why it would be Sansa.

Then I remembered the Azor Ahai legend.  Assuming for the moment that Jon is Azor Ahai--and there's a big "IF" in there--according to the legend, Azor Ahai could only bring Lightbringer into existence (as Lightbringer, rather than just another sword) by he bathing it in the blood of his wife (after trying animals), that is, someone he loved.  There aren't too many people other than Sansa that Jon loves that are still left alive.

IIRC AA plunged Light bringer into his wife's chest, but AA also forged the sword himself.

Last I checked, Jon Snow knows nothing (particularly useful) about blacksmithing.

So I wouldn't take the prophecy too literally.

[Lemuria]

9 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

IIRC AA plunged Light bringer into his wife's chest, but AA also forged the sword himself.

Last I checked, Jon Snow knows nothing (particularly useful) about blacksmithing.

So I wouldn't take the prophecy too literally.

True, but it is also said:

"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.[3]"

So the "new guy" doesn't actually forge the sword--it may be that Lightbringer is in "hiding" (Longclaw, perhaps?) and just needs to be re-activated.  Which may or may not require another sacrifice.  

Don't get me wrong: I'm not convinced Sansa won't be standing at the end.  This just occurred to me as a possible answer to the question of why would Martin kill off Sansa (other than, of course, because he can!).

(Just as an aside, there was a post that noted that, among all the mud-stained swords in the battle, Jon's was the only one where the blood was bright red. "The Red Sword of Heroes??"

Edited June 23, 2016 by Lemuria

[Oscirus]

14 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

Arya kills Sansa for reasons which make sense at the time, (thinking she's Cersei, mistaking her for an attacker, something). OR Sansa sacrifices herself for Jon or Arya. Arya then uses Sansa's face to kill Littlefinger and Tyrion, then uses Littlefinger to kill Cersei and Tyrion to kill Dany. I doubt Arya's going to save Sansa. Nobody likes a victim. Except me, apparently. I rather like Sansa and always have. More likely you're right, and Sansa lives out her days at Winterfell after one more hitch related to Littlefinger.

Ok that ending would be epic. But only if Arya sits on the throne at the end pulls back her mask and it's the Waif who winks at the camera before lowering her mask and continuing to be Arya.

[Happy Harpy]

12 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

I still think Melisandre's magic could come in handy. All her visions came true, maybe there's still something useful that can be gleamed in the flames. Though, if Bran makes to WF in time, he could take on that role. I do agree that losing Mel would easier than losing Davos. But I wonder if Jon would subject a lone woman to uncertainty in a war torn country?

I was thinking of Bran for the magic, yes (and I've been waiting for a Bran/Jon reunion for so long!). Good point about Jon not sending a woman away, although he did have a murdering little shit of a kid hanged. I can see a conflict and it could go either way. I just hope that my JonVos and my DavMund friendships are going to last into S7.

9 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

As proof... other than the parents and poor Will, name one viewpoint character from the first book who is currently dead despite all the potential times they could have died.

There aren't any. Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Sansa, Arya and Bran are all still alive despite each having been in multiple situations where 'reality ensues' could have led to their death. Heck, even Sam and Theon who are just supporting characters in the first book haven't died yet despite what they've been through.

Even the notable characters who have died have died in ways that pushed the narrative. Selmy didn't die because his horse tripped in a pothole and it rolled over on him. Shireen didn't die of pneumonia in an ill-supplied winter camp. Instead of such commonplace and completely realistic deaths, Selmy died to show the threat of the Harpies and deprive Dany of her most reasonable advisor to make room for Tyrion and Shireen was burned as the culmination of Stannis' fall and to bring us the Davos vs. Mel conflict that is coming next week.

And I'm sorry, but there's been foreshadowing since practically Shireen's first appearance that she was going end up being burned. She only existed as a character to service Davos' story and mark Stannis' descent.

Bringing this back to Sansa, narratively there's nothing to be gained by her death. Once Jon is King in the North her death won't shift any balance of power or teach us something new about how those around her deal with loss (We've already seen it multiple times with everyone still left). The only reason left after the finale this Sunday would be pure shock value which is basically the worst reason to kill a main character.

I think its telling that so far the only concrete "how would Sansa actually die?" argument I've seen basically amounts to "the most shocking person possible" for undefined "reasons" (ie. to be shocking).

A dead POV character from the first book...like Ned Stark? (OK, cheap shot :) Although Ned established the "Anybody can die" in the first season, and with the end in sight I do believe that all bets are off once again.

Because I'd agree about only killing second-tiers characters, except that we arrive to the end game. I have yet to see people who believe that Cersei will make it and she's a POV character. Killing off many main characters in the end, heroes or villains, is also a trope of conventional storytelling.

Shireen's role, and this is the same for any other characters who were killed, can be defined and reduced to "unimportant" only with hindsight imo. There was indeed foreshadowing of her end, but there was also foreshadowing that she could have another role especially in the light of the grey scale plot on the show and books + Stannis naming her as his heir in the books. Because she died, the former option can be deemed "it was always going to be". If she didn't, so would have the latter.

As for Sansa, if she could be raped for shock value as many believe she was (not my opinion) I don't see why she can't die for shock value. I mean, we know that Bran is alive, so what was the narrative point of Rickon's death beyond emotional or shock value? IIRC many theorized that every Stark still alive by the end of ADWD would have a role to play in the end game and obviously it isn't going to turn out this way.

Maybe her rift with Jon is only temporary...maybe it could lead to a more serious antagonism especially with LittleCreeper thrown into the mix and it would give the character plenty of narrative reasons to be killed. Not in this season's finale, but for the two seasons left and the endgame? I still don't think that she, or any other character for that matter, can be claimed as 100% safe. Again, we can only have certainty with hindsight imo.

[ParadoxLost]

20 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

More likely though is that Rickon is the last Stark to die and Jon, Sansa, Arya and Bran all make it through to the end.

I think there is almost zero chance that Bran survives the series.  The revelation that the Children of the Forest made the Night King all but sealed his fate.  Bran will have to do something in a vision to find out how to stop the creation of new White Walkers. But karma will demand that someone (Bran) tied to the Weirwood will sacrifice their life to do it because all this started to defend the trees. 

[Chris24601]

30 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

A dead POV character from the first book...like Ned Stark? (OK, cheap shot :) Although Ned established the "Anybody can die" in the first season, and with the end in sight I do believe that all bets are off once again.

A non-shot actually... I said "other than the parents and Will (the prologue guy)" because the parents in a story like this are always expendable, just like Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Han Solo in the first Star Wars films of their respective trilogies. The only subversive thing GRRM did in the plot was write a significant portion of the first book's chapters from the point of view of the doomed mentors instead of entirely from the POV of the actual protagonists (i.e. the ones who survived the first book).
 

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Because I'd agree about only killing second-tiers characters, except that we arrive to the end game. I have yet to see people who believe that Cersei will make it and she's a POV character. Killing off many main characters in the end, heroes or villains, is also a trope of conventional storytelling.

 

Cersei's not a first book viewpoint character, though. There's a reason I make the distinction and it has to do with story structure. Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Sansa, Arya and Bran are THE leads of the story... they've had viewpoint chapters from early in the first book and we've followed them through all manner of events. Everyone who came along later is a supporting character in terms of the underlying narrative.

Cersei doesn't get a viewpoint chapter until A Feast for Crows when GRRM started padding the narrative significantly and wrote himself into a corner by sending both the King's Landing viewpoint characters (Tyrion and Sansa) away. That and all the tropes GRRM does follow are why no one expects her to make it through to the end.

And actually, killing off MANY main characters at the end of a story is NOT a trope for anything but slasher films and tragic war stories. How many of Luke, Han, Leia, Chewie, Artoo and Threepio died in the final battle of RotJ (the end of their story)? How many of Aragon, Frodo, Sam, Legolas, Gimli, Merry and Pippin died during the final battle of Lord of the Rings? How many of Harry, Hermione, Ron and Ginny permanently died at the end of Harry Potter?

Its almost like these sort of stories keep the central heroes alive despite the odds.

Even when there is a death of a central hero at that stage its to serve some narrative purpose in the endgame. Its rarely if ever something random because after following someone for so long through the story and thinking its going to go somewhere, people will get very frustrated to see a character die for no reason other than shock value (ex. Walsh in Serenity vs. Book whose death had a narrative purpose in pushes the heroes to go to Miranda and learn the truth).

That's why I feel Sansa is a safe choice to survive the series... because their is not narrative gain to killing off another victim at that stage of the story (Jon is safe because you only actually kill someone once in the same story). If any of the three leading ladies are going to die in the final act it will be Dany or Arya because both have the skills (assassination or dragon-riding respectively) to be in a situation where a heroic sacrifice is called for and their particular skill would make a difference in a meaningful way.

Hodor's great strength let him hold the door far longer than Meera could hope to so the others could escape. Wun Wun takes down the gates in a way Jon's forces were otherwise unable to and stopped what could have been a lengthy winter siege before it began. So what is it that Sansa can do that no one else could do that would make her a good choice for a heroic sacrifice? Sew? Say prayers? Display courtesy?
 

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Shireen's role, and this is the same for any other characters who were killed, can be defined and reduced to "unimportant" only with hindsight imo. There was indeed foreshadowing of her end, but there was also foreshadowing that she could have another role especially in the light of the grey scale plot on the show and books + Stannis naming her as his heir in the books. Because she died, the former option can be deemed "it was always going to be". If she didn't, so would have the latter.

 

Just what was this foreshadowing of her survival you speak of? Stannis making her his heir only happened for the same reason his "You are my daughter" moments were accentuated on the show... to make it that much more horrible when the inevitable occurred because she was always just a supporting character in the story of Stannis' downfall.

I saw a lot of HOPE that Shireen and Rickon would survive and marry and be happy... but they aren't the leads of the story so it was always going to be their place to die in service to the story of the actual leads (and in Shireen's case I think the lead it serviced would be Davos... he became a viewpoint character early in book two and has remained significant ever since... and possibly Jon if it was Shireen's death that paid for his rebirth).

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As for Sansa, if she could be raped for shock value as many believe she was (not my opinion) I don't see why she can't die for shock value. I mean, we know that Bran is alive, so what was the narrative point of Rickon's death beyond emotional or shock value? IIRC many theorized that every Stark still alive by the end of ADWD would have a role to play in the end game and obviously it isn't going to turn out this way.

 

Actually, she was put into that role because D&D wanted to do the fArya plot, but wanted to use a main character the audience would empathize with for the role and it wasn't JUST shock value because they had Sansa grow as result (one can make all the arguments in the world against 'rape as catalyst for character growth' but the showrunners went there and now we just have to deal with the fallout). It also got Sansa up north well ahead of her book counterpart for reasons I think play into her actual endgame and the differences between the mediums of book and show.

As for Rickon... he's always been the backup Stark. The easy answer to who rules Winterfell. Narratively, you ALWAYS take out the backup plans and easy answers going into the third act because the tension comes from not having a backup or an easy way out. For Lord's sake, GRRM named his direwolf SHAGGY DOG!

Rickon was always doomed because he wasn't a viewpoint character and he made the answers to certain narrative dilemmas way too easily solved. His death wasn't just for shock value, it was to do precisely what Sansa herself pointed out in the same episode; that Rickon had a stronger claim to Winterfell than either Jon the bastard or Sansa the girl (or Bran the cripple if you really get down to it). Now there's a dramatic conflict over who is the rightful ruler of the North because there is no easy choice (i.e. the trueborn son) left in the mix.

Bottom line there is zero narrative reason for Sansa to be killed off and there isn't even any foreshadowing of something that could lead to her death in play. The foreshadowing in the books is that Sansa will KILL, not that she will be killed.

By contrast Dany's got a dead husband to be reunited with someday and Arya the lone wolf is always in danger of dying (not to mention 'you've got the wolfblood like your aunt Lyanna and it led her to an early grave' and 'we won't find your body until spring with a needle frozen in your fingers').

That doesn't mean Dany or Arya will die for certain either, but at least there's some foreshadowing there where there isn't for Sansa. Even when pressed for how Sansa could die all I get in reply is "anything can still happen" and "she might do something at some point that might make someone want to kill her" and not specifics like "Dany might have to sacrifice her life to defeat the White Walkers" or "Arya could be mortally wounded in the process of killing an important enemy."

Give me specifics. What could Sansa realistically do at this stage that would both warrant her death and serve to advance the plot in some fashion?

The shocking death well is dry at this stage. What deaths are left in this series will be to serve a narrative purpose (ex. clearing the way in King's Landing for Dany's easy arrival by taking out all the players who might be against her in one fell swoop).

[MarySNJ]

8 hours ago, Lemuria said:

True, but it is also said:

"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.[3]"

So the "new guy" doesn't actually forge the sword--it may be that Lightbringer is in "hiding" (Longclaw, perhaps?) and just needs to be re-activated.  Which may or may not require another sacrifice.  

Don't get me wrong: I'm not convinced Sansa won't be standing at the end.  This just occurred to me as a possible answer to the question of why would Martin kill off Sansa (other than, of course, because he can!).

(Just as an aside, there was a post that noted that, among all the mud-stained swords in the battle, Jon's was the only one where the blood was bright red. "The Red Sword of Heroes??"

The Azor Ahai legend required a sacrifice of Nissa Nissa to temper the steel, but you're quite right that it's not written the AA reborn will have to sacrifice a loved one. Assuming Lightbringer is a literal sword and has already been forged and tempered, perhaps it's only a matter of getting it in the right hands. 

In the show version of the legend, Melisandre seems to think it's enough that Stannis draws a sword from the flames. There's no reference to a human sacrifice related to Lightbringer. 

That being said, GRRM also makes it clear that prophesies are double-edged swords and often realized in a non-literal way. So, if AA reborn must include a sacrifice, it may be more symbolic than actual, or metaphorical than literal. 

Consider some possibilities:  

Maybe Rhaegar was right the first time and he was the PTWP. Then his beloved Lyanna (Nissa Nissa) died (sacrifice) giving birth Jon (Lightbringer). 

Or, maybe Shireen's death was the sacrifice that allowed Jon's resurrection as AA reborn (only death can pay for life). Or, for that matter, maybe Jon's own death is the sacrifice and the act of resurrection is when he transforms into Azor Ahai. 

And there's still the possibility that Dany is AA reborn, Drogo and/or Rhaego was the sacrifice and Drogon is Lightbringer. 

Assuming Jon is AA, I don't think it has to follow that he will have sacrifice Sansa or Arya. If a literal sacrifice is required (in the books, where Jon was left for dead) it could be Ghost, or possibly just some version of the non-literal scenarios above. 

[SeanC]

From assorted spoiler sources, promos, etc., everything we can expect in the finale:

Beyond the Wall

Spoiler

At least two scenes:

1. Bran's vision of the Tower of Joy.
2. Bran and co. arrive at the Wall.

We still haven't had Bran's "they have no idea what's coming" line.

The North

Spoiler

At least five scenes:

1. The King in the North, Part 2
2. Sansa and Littlefinger in the Godswood
3. Jon and Littlefinger in the Godswood (possibly continued from the above)
4. Jon and Sansa
5. Davos' "j'accuse!" scene with Jon and Mel.

Sansa's "it's all I think about, what was taken from me" (could be from either of her convos, really) still hasn't shown up.

The Riverlands

Spoiler

At least two scenes:

1. Jaime and Bronn arrive at the Twins.
2. Frey party that goes awry.  As I said previously, I'm guessing this will be played as a Jaime scene until the bodies start dropping, at which point Arya presents herself.

King's Landing

Spoiler

At least five scenes:

1. The trial, where Cersei blows everybody up.
2. The Mountain kills Septa Unella (I guess she's hanging out with Cersei or something?).
3. Per the nudity website, there's a nude prostitute in this episode, so something to do with that (maybe a civilian POV as part of the city burns?).
4. Tommen commits suicide by jumping out a window(?).
5. Some version of the ADWD epilogue where the little birds murder people.

Seeing as this will be the final episode for several castmembers, you'd kind of expect them to get some notable material on their way out the door, though that doesn't always happen.

Oldtown

Spoiler

At least one scene:

1. Sam has a scene with a maester.

Seeing as there was no substance to this plotline this year, it seems like this will have to include some substantial tease for next year as to why any of this matters.

Bad Pussy Kingdom (formerly known as Dorne)

Spoiler

At least one scene:

1. Varys and Olenna both appear in Dorne to meet with the new Princess Ellaria.

I'll be interested to see if this is after the Sept of Baelor gets nuked, because Diana Rigg should really play the hell out of the knowledge that her whole family is dead.  Actually, now that I think about it, Olenna's mere presence at this meeting probably indicates that it is, since why else would she go to Dorne to meet with Targaryen/Martell representatives who are in total opposition to Margaery's spouse?

Meereen

Spoiler

At least two scenes:

1. Dany and Daario.
2. Dany and Tyrion.

This plotline feels substantially wrapped up for the year, unless there's some huge twist.

Edited June 23, 2016 by SeanC

[scottiB]

13 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Tormund's "I thought he was the man to lead us through the Long Night..."

Thanks for the summary -- beats slogging back and forth to WoTW and /r/Freefolk. Tormund said the quote above when he was talking to Davos the night before the battle in 6x09.

[amandawoods]

Spoiler

 

Tormunds line about being the one to lead us was said to Davos last episode about Mance.  Also based on the soundtrack it looks like the last scene is Dany traveling to Westeros unless there is a cliffhanger ending after that.  

There was a theory that the nude prostitute has to do with Pycelle before he's stabbed by the little spies. 

 

[SeanC]

2 minutes ago, scottiB said:

Thanks for the summary -- beats slogging back and forth to WoTW and /r/Freefolk. Tormund said the quote above when he was talking to Davos the night before the battle in 6x09.

Ah, I missed that.

2 minutes ago, amandawoods said:

  Hide contents

Also based on the soundtrack it looks like the last scene is Dany traveling to Westeros unless there is a cliffhanger ending after that.  

Spoiler

Did one of the reliable spoiler sources say she was still in Meereen at season's end?  Though she's clearly planning to leave, regardless.

[amandawoods]

Spoiler

I'm not sure. Just that in the music it sounds like a Dany/Ironborn Mashup, so I figured it would be them on their ships.  I know that Dany finally moving to Westeros is a big deal, but it seems like whenever they want an uplifting ending, they always go to Dany.  

[Lady S.]

The good doctor's vid is up early this week.

[Edith]

From TV Guide

In the Season 6 finale, Tyrion counsels Daenerys on the upcoming campaign; Jon and Sansa discuss their future; and trials begin in King's Landing.

http://www.tvguide.com/tvshows/game-of-thrones/episode-10-season-6/the-winds-of-winter/30/i.reddituploads.?

[Happy Harpy]

6 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

 

Cersei's not a first book viewpoint character, though. There's a reason I make the distinction and it has to do with story structure. Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Sansa, Arya and Bran are THE leads of the story... they've had viewpoint chapters from early in the first book and we've followed them through all manner of events. Everyone who came along later is a supporting character in terms of the underlying narrative.

Cersei doesn't get a viewpoint chapter until A Feast for Crows when GRRM started padding the narrative significantly and wrote himself into a corner by sending both the King's Landing viewpoint characters (Tyrion and Sansa) away. That and all the tropes GRRM does follow are why no one expects her to make it through to the end.

Give me specifics. What could Sansa realistically do at this stage that would both warrant her death and serve to advance the plot in some fashion?

 

So it's POV characters but not POV characters and then POV characters but not "expendable" ones (very subjective, if I may). OK.

I gave you some specifics already. Sansa could be pitted against Jon, manipulated by Littlefinger, contest his leadership on the North. Narratively, she'd be an obstacle to fighting the WW and her death would make sense as in removing it before focusing on the real deal. Or on the opposite she could be used by Jon's enemies (Euron who is going to stir some shit for sure or even Dany, what do we know?) the way Rickon was used by Ramsay. She could be the tragic victim of the Night's King invasion of Winterfell, the victim that gives an emotional resonance to the tragedy in the middle of dozens of red shirts. The Stark in Winterfell dying defending Winterfell, perfectly justified in the story.  Not having a role to play in the final battle, unlike Arya or Dany, could make her more expendable since she wouldn't be needed. Etc.

You want Sansa to survive, fine. She might, there are reasons why she might. I hope for you she will because when you lose a beloved character whereas you convinced yourself it wouldn't happen, ouch. But it reminds me when people refused to believe she was going to Winterfell and would marry Ramsay before S5. You're free to keep your personal perspective, yet at this point it is objectively impossible to say that she won't die.

I don't want Jon or Arya to die. I could justify why they won't die. I don't know what will happen. No one knows.

Edited June 23, 2016 by Happy Harpy

[jjjmoss]

Er, objectively they stated the POV-all-along characters. Not that mess you're trying to claim.

[paigow]

9 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Ok that ending would be epic. But only if Arya sits on the throne at the end pulls back her mask and it's

• Loki
• Ethan Hunt

[amandawoods]

From reddit someone awesomely translated frickdoctor 

Spoiler

Cersei will burn everything and Margaery, Loras, HS and everyone in there will die in the process. Cersei wants to accuse Olenna.

Tommen sees the scene and he jumps out the window.

Cersei doesn't know Tommen has killed himself. We will see the consequences next year.

Pycelle dies because he finds out the basement in which Qyburn hides Wildfires.

Olenna, Varys and Ellaria make a strategic alliance against KL and the Lannister.

Jon will be the King in the North thanks to Lyanna Mormont

The wall will not fall down

R+L=J

We don't know what Sansa wants to do and what she thinks

Arya will kill Walder Fray because she will pretend to be a whore

Melisandre won't die 

Daenerys leaves ESSOS with Theon, Yara, Tyrion ecc

Spoiler

Even though I knew it was coming, I still feel bummed about Margaery.  So Cersei doesn't even flee Kings Landing?  

[SeanC]

FrikiDoctor isn't actually giving spoilers anymore, just predictions (that often make use of existing spoilers from other sources; he's clearly read truede's stuff).

[scottiB]

1 hour ago, amandawoods said:

Spoiler

Cersei wants to accuse Olenna.

Spoiler

Doubtful, or not a convincing accusation if is true because Olenna would've killed her entire family.

 

Edited June 23, 2016 by scottiB

[nksarmi]

12 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

I think there is almost zero chance that Bran survives the series.  The revelation that the Children of the Forest made the Night King all but sealed his fate.  Bran will have to do something in a vision to find out how to stop the creation of new White Walkers. But karma will demand that someone (Bran) tied to the Weirwood will sacrifice their life to do it because all this started to defend the trees. 

Actually I think it's far more likely that Bran far out lives all of the characters in the books. He is the new three-eyed crow and the one who just died on the show was very, very old. The story started with Bran and I'd bet it ends with him.

[SeanC]

30 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

Actually I think it's far more likely that Bran far out lives all of the characters in the books. He is the new three-eyed crow and the one who just died on the show was very, very old. The story started with Bran and I'd bet it ends with him.

Yeah, that's one of the odder predictions I've seen.  Bran outliving everybody else is almost an article of faith with me, based on how things have been set up.

[Hecate7]

16 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

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So what is it that Sansa can do that no one else could do that would make her a good choice for a heroic sacrifice?

Seduce or marry Littlefinger. Charm, seduce, or marry any of the other heterosexual male characters. But probably Littlefinger.

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Actually I think it's far more likely that Bran far out lives all of the characters in the books. He is the new three-eyed crow and the one who just died on the show was very, very old. The story started with Bran and I'd bet it ends with him.

For once we are in agreement. Dead first book POV character is probably Catelyn. Main character dying? Probably Jaime, Tyrion, Davos, or Sansa. I doubt Arya, Bran, Dany, or Jon Snow will die.

 

Edited June 24, 2016 by Hecate7

[Oscirus]

Spoiler

I could've sworn that the spoilers said that R+L = j wasn't confirmed. That Lyanna whispers something to Ned but we don't hear it.