General True Crime Shows

[funky-rat]

4 hours ago, Razzberry said:

I saw nothing new in that McDonald show that made me go "Hmmm, maybe he didn't do it!"   If Helena Stokely is their smoking gun,  that burnout couldn't swear what planet she was on.  It's like they never heard of people injecting themselves into crimes. I think at the time some people just couldn't believe a man could do that.  But as we've seen, it happens for ridiculous and selfish reasons.  

Plus he was smart and handsome, and I think that for some time, people associated stuff like that with grotesque people.  He married Collette because she was pregnant.  It's not a stretch to say he was sick of it all, and did it.

[Razzberry]

For the love of god they are still whipping the Helena Stockly dead horse.  This seems to be all they have.  Discredited and no evidence whatsoever she was in the house, move along!  Then they gloss over facts like Colette having his hair in her hand.

MacDonald's wife is pretty but she's another killer groupie or not very bright. 

Edited October 3, 2020 by Razzberry

[Persnickety1]

15 hours ago, kathyk24 said:

It's a great book and the TV movie that was made from the book is worth watching. The movie stars Gary Cole as Jeffrey McDonald and Karl Malden as Collette's father. Collette's father went from proclaiming Jeff's innocence to wanting him found guilty.

Yes, the miniseries was definitely worth watching.  It followed the book amazingly well.  

I couldn't bring myself to watch the McDonald program.  My opinion that he butchered his wife and daughters will never be swayed.  

I hope he rots in prison, where he belongs.  

[Persnickety1]

Did anyone catch American Murder: The Family Next Door on Netflix?

It's a documentary about Chris Watts, who murdered his pregnant wife and two children.

I watched another program about this case, but this documentary is done primarily via private messages and texts between Shanann and a friend in whom she was confiding about the collapse of her marriage and other social media posts that Shanann made.  It offered a lot more detail of what was going on leading up the murders.

The neighbor next door with the security cam was my hero in this story.  That man knew Watts was acting squirrely literally right from the start and didn't hesitate to share his observations with the responding officers.  He also informed them Watts *never* backed up his truck to load it from the garage as he did the morning of the murders.  

Anyway, it was a really interesting format with a lot more detail than what I'd previously seen.  

It's definitely worth a watch.  

[Annber03]

I've heard about it, yeah-I'll be doing a free trial for Netflix again soon 'cause of "Unsolved Mysteries", so I'll give the documentary a look. I'm familiar with the Watts story itself, but the talk about the format of this particular documentary has me curious. 

There's a thread for it here, too, that I've been reading-some interesting discussion thus far:

 

[Razzberry]

16 hours ago, funky-rat said:

Plus he was smart and handsome, and I think that for some time, people associated stuff like that with grotesque people.  He married Collette because she was pregnant.  It's not a stretch to say he was sick of it all, and did it.

Yep, and wasn't she pregnant again as well?  Or maybe I'm thinking of Chris Watts and a bunch of others.   I about puked when MacDonald said he'd never say he did it because that would "dishonor" his family.  And I don't think I can bear to see Watts anymore after hearing his little girl asked him if he was going to kill her like he did her sister, which she had to watch. 

[CrazyInAlabama]

I just saw an article about unsellable houses that were crime scenes.   The Watts house went into foreclosure, but no one bought it, so it's in limbo until a creditor forecloses on it again.     One creditor is Shanann's family, they have claims against anything from the estate.    

https://www.realtor.com/news/celebrity-real-estate/chris-watts-murder-house-in-limbo/

I can't imagine living in that house.  

Edited October 4, 2020 by CrazyInAlabama

[Persnickety1]

12 hours ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

I just saw an article about unsellable houses that were crime scenes.   The Watts house went into foreclosure, but no one bought it, so it's in limbo until a creditor forecloses on it again.     One creditor is Shanann's family, they have claims against anything from the estate.    

https://www.realtor.com/news/celebrity-real-estate/chris-watts-murder-house-in-limbo/

I can't imagine living in that house.  

Looks like it's very recently been taken off the market.  

Even the pictures of the home are gone from the site.  

I couldn't live there.  The little hairs on the back of my neck rise up just thinking about it.  

21 hours ago, Annber03 said:

I've heard about it, yeah-I'll be doing a free trial for Netflix again soon 'cause of "Unsolved Mysteries", so I'll give the documentary a look. I'm familiar with the Watts story itself, but the talk about the format of this particular documentary has me curious. 

There's a thread for it here, too, that I've been reading-some interesting discussion thus far:

 

The texts between Shanann and her friend are extremely revealing about what was going on in the Watts home.  

I really enjoyed the social media platform approach to the documentary.  I hope you enjoy it as well.  

[Annber03]

16 minutes ago, Persnickety1 said:

The texts between Shanann and her friend are extremely revealing about what was going on in the Watts home.  

Always the way, isn't it? It's amazing what you can learn from text messages in these crime stories sometimes...people will reveal any and everything. And of course, it stays on record, too, so even if you try and delete it later, someone'll find a way to retrieve it. 

I couldn't imagine living in that house, either. 

[CrazyInAlabama]

I don't have Netflix, so I searched for "Shanann Watts texts with friend" and it's on Youtube.      So much for Chris Watts and his parents claiming that everything was fine, and they all got along.     

 

Edited October 4, 2020 by CrazyInAlabama

[Annber03]

Quote

In a text that Shanann wrote on August 4, she told Chris that his parents had cut her and their grandchildren off because she got angry when she found out that they were giving the children ice cream with peanut chips, The Daily Mail reported.

This was done in spite of the grandparents knowing that Celeste had a nut allergy. The couple then proceeded to block Shanann on Facebook and did not even go for their granddaughter's third birthday, let alone call and wish her.

Wow.

Quote

"I advocated and protected our children. I don't ever want to hear l'm sorry I killed your kid because I was stupid. That would kill me."

"These kids are my world and I have to protect them from the evil of the world. I shouldn't have to protect them from evil family."

Well. These comments are even more haunting to read now. 

Man, watching her just completely (and understandably) losing her patience like that with his parents...just heartbreaking. His family sounds like a complete and total nightmare. 

12 minutes ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

They had to transfer Murderer Watts to a prison in Wisconsin.   Apparently he wasn't too popular with the other prisoners.  

Child murderers never are. 

Edited October 4, 2020 by Annber03

[CountryGirl]

I've only seen the first 2 episodes of A Wilderness of Error and so far, it seems more MacDonald did it, which, of course, I have been convinced in since I read Fatal Vision back in junior high. 

I knew Helena Stoeckley would be trotted out and rolled my eyes throughout. The pro-Mac the Knife gang are such idiots to have ever believed her. She "confessed" and recanted countless times. She also said she got high with MacDonald and had sex with him, but of course, those stories were discounted. Of course she could recall details - it was national news for some time and there were pictures of the home, including the interior rooms (i.e. the hobby horse in Kristy's room). ITA with the comment upthread about her father also knowing a ton of details about the case. 

The forensic evidence told me all I ever need to know that he is guilty as sin. The blood evidence, including the ability to trace the moments of everyone in the house because of them all having different blood types, blood where it shouldn't have been - the kitchen and the bathroom and Kimmie's blood in the master bedroom and hallway, Collette's blood in Kristy's room, no blood where it should have been (i.e. the living room/hallway where Mac the Knife claimed he was in a "life and death struggle" and later collapsed). Collette's blood being on the pajama top BEFORE it was torn. Him claiming he gave them mouth to mouth but they were found in the dark, on their sides, in their beds (no father, let alone doctor, would have done this). The weapons coming from inside the home and being found just outside the back door. The Valentine's cards that were still atop the china cabinet in the dining area, only steps away from the couch where he claims to be attacked. Him describing all these details about the "killers" when the room would have been almost pitch black and he needed glasses to see well.  His pregnant wife got both of her arms broken, fighting like hell to protect her babies while he had a (self-inflicted) cut, a few nicks on his arm/abdomen (likely from Collette defending herself) and a bump on the head (again from Collette). Even little Kristy had cuts on her hands, trying to protect herself. As someone, remarking on the trial, said "Either he's lying or he's the biggest fucking pussy in the world!" 

I believe he got into an argument with Collette when he came to bed and found Kimmie there and she had wet the bed (and why he insisted it was Kristy when the urinalysis proves otherwise I'll never know except he's a lying liar who lies) and was going to punish her and Collette, who had been gaining in confidence, especially since attending her child psychology classes, showed her mama lioness side and protected her child. I think he hit Collette in the face first with his fist - that's what put the blood on his pajama top (again, before it was torn) and he grabbed the club (bed slat) and went to hit her with it (because how dare a woman hit him) and as he did, he hit Kimmy who was obviously still in the room given her blood being in the room. And with Collette struck and Kimmy struck and Kimmy likely near death or at least where she would have been in a vegetative state, he had two choices (1) call for help and take his chances with pleading temporary sanity or some type of manslaughter or (2) self-preservation. He opted for #2 and as part of that, he killed Kristy. He killed her to make his story fit and obviously after he had calmed down enough to think and plan his next actions, which is why he got 1st degree murder for Kristy's death and 2nd degree for his wife and Kimmy.

I did appreciate seeing others not named in Fatal Vision and their take on the case and all the footage I had never seen before.

As for Mac the Knife, he's exactly where he belongs and the only way he's ever leaving that prison is in a pine box, which is more than he deserves.

 

[LuvMyShows]

Just curious if anyone else (besides me) has watched either The Dark Side of the Ring on Vice, or True Life Crime on MTV.

[Annber03]

I've watched 'Dark Side of the Ring". I'm not even a wrestling fan and barely know anything about the sport in general, but that show is fascinating. Some absolutely wild stories in that world. 

[funky-rat]

8 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

Just curious if anyone else (besides me) has watched either The Dark Side of the Ring on Vice, or True Life Crime on MTV.

Dark Side.  My husband is a lifelong WWF fan.

[Persnickety1]

On 10/6/2020 at 1:11 PM, LuvMyShows said:

Just curious if anyone else (besides me) has watched either The Dark Side of the Ring on Vice, or True Life Crime on MTV.

I watched True Life Crime on MTV.  I found it just mediocre.  I probably won't watch a second season of it (if there is one).  All of the cases had been covered much better elsewhere.  

[Persnickety1]

I was watching some episodes of ID Discovery's See No Evil last night and found the episode Seen at Susan's fascinating.  The odds of all 3 of the men in her life being in exactly the same place at exactly the same time was beyond crazy.  I don't want to put spoilers in here because there really is quite a twist in the murderer's identity. 

It looks like ID Discovery also covered this case in their Murder Comes to Town with the episode Mommy, Please Come Home.  

Now I have to track that down and watch it.  

 

[One Tough Cookie]

On 9/4/2020 at 5:36 PM, LuvMyShows said:

I don't know if it was him, or someone else, but I saw a show recently where a woman met a man on-line and after 2 weeks they were discussing marriage, and he asked to borrow $2,500 so he could send his daughter on a field trip for school...and she wired him the money!  WTAF  Surprise...no daughter/field trip, no marriage, no money repaid.

Sounds like a Judge Judy episode!

[One Tough Cookie]

2 minutes ago, One Tough Cookie said:

Sounds like a Judge Judy episode!

Mac the Knife is totally and positively guilty and he will NEVER convince me otherwise.

[One Tough Cookie]

4 minutes ago, One Tough Cookie said:

Sounds like a Judge Judy episode!

About 20 years ago Joe MaGuiness wrote a book called "Fatal Vision" and Mac was being intervened  on 60 Minutes .-he was smug as all get out.  At the end of the interview Wallace asked him if he was interested Mac's final opinion of him and being the narcissist he was he said sure. Wallace said "He thinks you are  pathological liar".  The look on Mac's face was priceless!

 

If you haven't read ""Fatal Vision" I highly recommend a trip to Amazon!

1 minute ago, One Tough Cookie said:

About 20 years ago Joe MaGuiness wrote a book called "Fatal Vision" and Mac was being intervened  on 60 Minutes .-he was smug as all get out.  At the end of the interview Wallace asked him if he was interested Manginess'ss final opinion of him and being the narcissist he was he said sure. Wallace said "He thinks you are  pathological liar".  The look on Mac's face was priceless!

 

If you haven't read ""Fatal Vision" I highly recommend a trip to Amazon!

 

[One Tough Cookie]

5 minutes ago, One Tough Cookie said:

About 20 years ago Joe MaGuiness wrote a book called "Fatal Vision" and Mac was being intervened  on 60 Minutes .-he was smug as all get out.  At the end of the interview Wallace asked him if he was interested Manginess'ss final opinion of him and being the narcissist he was he said sure. Wallace said "He thinks you are  pathological liar".  The look on Mac's face was priceless!

Acid Is Groovy--Kill the Pigs. Yeah, right

[funky-rat]

1 hour ago, One Tough Cookie said:

Acid Is Groovy--Kill the Pigs. Yeah, right

Just last night I blamed something on that darned roving band of hippies. My favorite scapegoat.  😆

[Tdoc72]

On 10/2/2020 at 6:55 PM, kathyk24 said:

It's a great book and the TV movie that was made from the book is worth watching. The movie stars Gary Cole as Jeffrey McDonald and Karl Malden as Collette's father. Collette's father went from proclaiming Jeff's innocence to wanting him found guilty.

 

[CountryGirl]

I watched Parts III and IV of A Wilderness of Error yesterday.

Part III, as with I and II, were very well-done, although I had hoped they would have spent a little time on Victor Woerheide, the US attorney who secured the indictment of Mac the Knife as well as Brian Murtagh, next to Freddie and Mildred, the fiercest champion of Collette, Kimmy, and Kristy.

Wade Smith...I just shake my head here. Him thinking if he had had the full hour, that would have made a difference with the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. But as a father of a young son at the time, I am sure it was beyond unthinkable that a father could do this to his child, raising his hand to not just strike, but mutilate, his own child. 

Interesting that Blackburn indicated it was one of the female jurors who walked into the courtroom first vs the Green Beret Joe McGinnis indicated in Fatal Vision. 

I was also disappointed that there wasn't equal attention given to Blackburn's closing arguments, some of his statements are in my brain to this very day:

"Ladies and gentlemen, I suggest that the evidence shows that there was, in fact, a life and death struggle in the house that night,  there truly was. I suggest that there were at least two white people involved in it. I suggest the evidence shows that there wasn't a black person involved. There was only one white male and one white female. The white female was Colette MacDonald and the white male was her husband, Jeffrey MacDonald. I suggest to you that some of the injuries that Jeffrey MacDonald sustained could well have been inflicted by his wife, Colette. We know from the evidence, ladies and gentlemen, that she fought, she fought mighty hard before she died. You don't get both of your arms broken by standing there waiting to be killed. You don't get all the injuries she got just standing there waiting to be killed! You just don't do it!"

"Ladies and gentlemen, the Defendant's theory of defense in this case has sort of been like this.  'I tell a story and you are to trust me. I am telling the truth. I loved my family. I loved Colette. I loved Kimberley and Kristen. Trust me. I couldn't have done this. I could not have done this. There has been a lot of character testimony. They say I can't do this; and therefore, because I am not the type of person, I couldn't do that.' Ladies and gentlemen, as Brian Murtagh told you this morning, if we convince you by the evidence that he did it, we don't have to show you that he is the sort of person that could have done it."

"Well, I am not going to stand here today and argue for long, ladies and gentlemen, over whether a pneumothorax is or is not potentially life-threatening or not life-threatening. That could go on all day long, but I do submit to you, ladies and gentlemen, even if the Government concedes, which we do not, that that was a potentially life-threatening wound, even if we concede, which we do not, that point: how many -- how many did he get compared and contrasted with the number his family got? One."

"I suggest to you, ladies and gentlemen, that if we prove to you that that was MacDonald's footprint in A Type blood, as I will later speak to, if we prove to you that Colette's blood got on that pajama top before and not after it was torn, then it doesn't make any difference if there were 5,000 hippies outside Castle Drive at 4:00 o'clock in the morning screaming, 'Acid is groovy; kill the pigs!' because they have not shown that those hippies were inside the house. It doesn't matter what was going on outside unless they can also tie that in to the inside. That is where the people died. They didn't die outside on Castle Drive. They didn't die out by Milne's apartment. They didn't die at North Lucas and Honeycutt. They didn't die in Helena Stoeckley's apartment. They died at 544 Castle Drive. For all we know, ladies and gentlemen, the Defendant himself did, in fact, see the people that Milne saw and that is where the story of the intruders came from. We don't know, ladies and gentlemen. I can only tell you from the physical evidence in this case that things do not lie, but I suggest that people can and do lie."

"You know, the defendant had a lot of nice character testimony, and I am sure that each of you, if you were accused of a crime, would have the same. Don't ever forget that perhaps the greatest crime of all was committed 2,000 years ago. And the night before Christ was betrayed, Judas Iscariot would have had 12 of the best character witnesses this world has ever known to have said he couldn't have done it, but you know that he did."

And these are the statements that stick with me the most as I think about the real victims of this case, Colette, Kimmy, and Kristy:

"Ladies and gentlemen, if in the future after this case is over, if in your jury deliberations, you should think again of this case, I ask you to think and remember Colette, Kimberley and Kristen. They would have liked to have been here. They have been dead for almost ten years. That is right now around 3,400 or 3,500 days and nights that you have had and I have had and the Defendant has had that they haven't. They would have liked to have had that. If in the future, you should cry a tear, cry one for them. If in the future, you should say a prayer, say one for them. If in the future, you should light a candle, light one for them."

Part IV, I could not roll my eyes hard enough about all the pointless discussion about Helena and Greg Mitchell and others and OMG, the amount of time spent on Greg Mitchell writing his "confession" on a wall. I know we didn't have DNA evidence at the time the murders happened or really until the early 90s, but there was zero evidence tying him or Helena or anyone else except Mac the Knife to these murders. John Mark Karr "confessed" to killing Jon Benet Ramsey.  And? So? Where is the DNA evidence? I'm just frustrated that they are still clinging onto this ridiculousness. 

I did appreciate hearing from Joe's wife, Nancy, and AFAIC, Joe was one of the heroes here, bringing this story, especially of its victims, Colette, Kim, and Kristy, but also Freddie and Mildred, to the masses. I know when the murders happened, it made headlines across the country, but I don't know how many followed the case all that closely afterwards. He also, IMO, owed MacDonald nothing in terms of the book as he never promised it would be a pro-MacDonald book. That wasn't their agreement. And it's also disgusting how once again, Mac the Knife, was portrayed as some poor victim. I also like the inclusion of some footage from the TV mini-series as that was so very spot-on. McGinnis' death was and is a huge loss for not just the true crime world, but the world as a whole. In watching this, I was also reminded of the baby books Mac the Knife gave to McGinnis, which who would do that, especially after losing his children? And with no intention of asking for them back because he didn't give a shit. 

Errol Morris is an absolute kook.  I LOL'd when he asked, uber-dramatically, "What happens when a narrative takes the place of reality?" in the title sequence, clearly a dig at "Fatal Vision." No, you clueless chucklefuck, the trial and conviction had already happened 4 years prior to the book being published. The reality was that Mac the Knife butchered his family in the name of self-preservation. That happened 13.5 years before the book was published and no matter what Joe wrote or didn't write, nothing will ever change the facts as they are. It's astonishing to me that for such an acclaimed author, that fact is escaping Morris. But he's not the only idiot out there - there are many Macolytes who think Fatal Vision got Mac the Knife convicted. I guess they can't tell time. 

For those interested, Joe wrote a short follow-up to Fatal Vision, entitled Final Vision, his very compelling, although obviously not necessary rebuttal to Fatal Joke (ahem, Fatal Justice) and A Wilderness of Error. 

Also, for those who want to read the actual transcripts/documents for yourselves, like his statement right after the murders, the Article 32, the grand jury trial, and the '79 trial, the best site for that is https://www.thejeffreymacdonaldcase.com/. It is maintained by Christina Masewicz, with the full support of Bob Stevenson, Collette's older brother, whom I'm glad was featured in the docuseries. Christina was shown in part III. She was initially proMac and went to the '79 trial to lend her support only to quickly realize he was, in fact, a cold-blooded killer. 

[One Tough Cookie]

23 hours ago, One Tough Cookie said:

Mac the Knife is totally and positively guilty and he will NEVER convince me otherwise.

 

23 hours ago, One Tough Cookie said:

About 20 years ago Joe MaGuiness wrote a book called "Fatal Vision" and Mac was being intervened  on 60 Minutes .-he was smug as all get out.  At the end of the interview Wallace asked him if he was interested Mac's final opinion of him and being the narcissist he was he said sure. Wallace said "He thinks you are  pathological liar".  The look on Mac's face was priceless!

 

If you haven't read ""Fatal Vision" I highly recommend a trip to Amazon!

 

Country Girl--what channel was the Mac the Knife channel on?

[CountryGirl]

17 hours ago, One Tough Cookie said:

 

Country Girl--what channel was the Mac the Knife channel on?

FX

[CountryGirl]

I also wanted to share this link that though you can scroll and scroll and scroll, it's just a partial list of all the bullshit Mac the Knife said and is easily refuted, known as MacDonald's Magical Mystery Tour:

http://www.themacdonaldcase.com/html/mmt.html

The bottom line is that he will lie about anything and everything to anyone and everyone. 

[CountryGirl]

I finished the last episode (Part V) and again, way too much time spent on Helena Stoeckley. It still boggles my mind that they would consider her "confession" as anything other than an attention-seeking addict's desire for, well, attention.

I loved how her youngest brother knew it was a bunch of bullshit. Don't understand why the other brother thought there was any truth to it. Most glaring of all, either Helena's lying or MacDonald is as their stories don't match in the slightest. And how gross that Mrs. Mac the Knife thought nothing of trying to get a deathbed statement from Helena's mother. But this chick is a piece of work herself, what with her arrests for DUI and shoplifting.

I did enjoy the inclusion of the DNA finding of the brown hair found in Collette's hand. Mac the Knife always said that that hair belonged to his wife's killer. For once, we agree as DNA showed the hair was his. With the US Supreme Court declining to hear any further appeals after the 4th Circuit denied a new trial, I am sincerely hoping this, the longest-running criminal case in US history, finally comes to a close. 

 

[renatae]

Ugh. Killer Beside Me - Carpool Murder. I'm disgusted. Patrick's superiors knew about his stalking and violence toward his coworkers, and all they did was "warn new people?" Why didn't they fire him? Why didn't anyone report him to the police?

At the end, it seems he confessed to killing Denise to "several of his coworkers" yet it doesn't say any one of them contacted police. It looks like the police had to go to them. 🤬

Edited October 16, 2020 by renatae

[Annber03]

Yes! I was wondering the same thing myself! I mean, it's not entirely surprising, because, well, as we've sadly seen in far too many instances, that seems to be how a lot of businesses handle those kinds of problems. But still...yeah, you'd after a while someone would've tried to do something to get rid of him. 

His obnoxious goose chase when it came to trying to find out what happened to Denise was infuriating, too. What a slimeball. 

[renatae]

On 10/3/2020 at 9:50 AM, Persnickety1 said:

I watched another program about this case, but this documentary is done primarily via private messages and texts between Shanann and a friend in whom she was confiding about the collapse of her marriage and other social media posts that Shanann made.  It offered a lot more detail of what was going on leading up the murders.

Thanks! I'm watching this, and though I know I've seen the police footage before, I can't remember if it was on this Netflix show or the other one.

I was struck by the fact that Chris' mother tried to give the girls items with nuts despite the allergy. Then the statement that his mom and sister were mad at Shannan because "she took him from them." Sounds like the classic narcissistic parent - the sort who would also decide she knows best about parenting and that allergies are "all in your head." What a witch. No wonder she produced such a self-involved excuse for a person.

[Minivanessa]

27 minutes ago, renatae said:

Thanks! I'm watching this, and though I know I've seen the police footage before, I can't remember if it was on this Netflix show or the other one.

I was struck by the fact that Chris' mother tried to give the girls items with nuts despite the allergy. Then the statement that his mom and sister were mad at Shannan because "she took him from them." Sounds like the classic narcissistic parent - the sort who would also decide she knows best about parenting and that allergies are "all in your head." What a witch. No wonder she produced such a self-involved excuse for a person.

Thanks for the info on the Netflix show. I've avoided pretty much all the shows about this case because I live in the Denver metro area. This first popped up on our local news as a "missing persons" case. I watched Chris standing on his driveway talking to the media about his missing wife and kids and thought, holy sh*t, he's killed them and he's lying his head off. When the details of the murders finally emerged, I found it so awful and repulsive that I just couldn't bring myself to read or watch much about the case. Especially some show (on Reelz maybe?) that featured an Exclusive! Interview! with the Murderer! in Prison! - f*ck that. And, I watch a lot of true crime, ID channel and all. 

Enough time has passed that I may watch the Netflix show, since it seems to be well focused on Shannan and not the POS who killed her and her children. 

[Persnickety1]

5 hours ago, renatae said:

Ugh. Killer Beside Me - Carpool Murder. I'm disgusted. Patrick's superiors knew about his stalking and violence toward his coworkers, and all they did was "warn new people?" Why didn't they fire him? Why didn't anyone report him to the police?

At the end, it seems he confessed to killing Denise to "several of his coworkers" yet it doesn't say any one of them contacted police. It looks like the police had to go to them. 🤬

I'm not usually violent, but I was wishing LE could have strong armed him into revealing her location.

And by strong armed, I really mean beat that piece of shit's ass until he told them the truth about where he left her.  

I presumed from his description to his co-workers about how Denise was kicking and fighting, that he was trying to force himself on her and she rejected him, which led to him murdering her.  

That piece of shit is up for parole in 2024,  He was sentenced to 15-life, I believe.  I hope he serves life.  

[Persnickety1]

On 10/9/2020 at 7:43 AM, CountryGirl said:

Also, for those who want to read the actual transcripts/documents for yourselves, like his statement right after the murders, the Article 32, the grand jury trial, and the '79 trial, the best site for that is https://www.thejeffreymacdonaldcase.com/. It is maintained by Christina Masewicz, with the full support of Bob Stevenson, Collette's older brother, whom I'm glad was featured in the docuseries. Christina was shown in part III. She was initially proMac and went to the '79 trial to lend her support only to quickly realize he was, in fact, a cold-blooded killer. 

It's been decades since I read Fatal Vision, but the author MacDonald hired, Joe McGinnis, underwent that same realization about MacDonald.  

From Wiki:

In June 1979, MacDonald had hired McGinniss to write a book about MacDonald's innocence. Between the Supreme Court's denial of review and the trial date, MacDonald arranged with McGinniss to interview him, attend the trial, and write a book about the case.

But McGinniss later became convinced that MacDonald was guilty of murdering his family. In the spring of 1983, McGinniss published Fatal Vision, saying that he had become convinced of MacDonald's guilt early in his research due to MacDonald's behavior and the court evidence, and presenting detailed arguments for guilt. As a motive, McGinniss suggests that MacDonald killed his family in a spur-of-the-moment, fit of psychotic rage as a result of taking amphetamines.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Persnickety1

[Minivanessa]

Thanks to everyone who's posted about the MacDonald case and the recent mini-series or whatever it was (that I haven't watched and probably won't). I also read Fatal Vision back in the day, and never thought MacDonald was wrongly convicted, although since the advent of the innernets I have read articles claiming he was. Nope. Not buying it. I think I read Final Vision, but at this point I may revisit both those books. 

 

[andromeda331]

8 hours ago, Jeeves said:

Thanks for the info on the Netflix show. I've avoided pretty much all the shows about this case because I live in the Denver metro area. This first popped up on our local news as a "missing persons" case. I watched Chris standing on his driveway talking to the media about his missing wife and kids and thought, holy sh*t, he's killed them and he's lying his head off. When the details of the murders finally emerged, I found it so awful and repulsive that I just couldn't bring myself to read or watch much about the case. Especially some show (on Reelz maybe?) that featured an Exclusive! Interview! with the Murderer! in Prison! - f*ck that. And, I watch a lot of true crime, ID channel and all. 

Enough time has passed that I may watch the Netflix show, since it seems to be well focused on Shannan and not the POS who killed her and her children. 

My dad and I realized he did it in that interview too. Everything from his words to his body language screamed he did it. 

[renatae]

Spoiler Alert

I just discovered the new Unsolved Mysteries series on Netflix. Season 1:2 is about a hairdresser named Patrice who disappeared and wasn't found for about a year and a half. She was on her second marriage to a guy 20 years older than her and had a teenaged son. Some people said they thought the newer husband was controlling and she was unhappy and thinking of divorce.

The son said his stepfather was really nice the first year but changed and started mocking him all the time and being very unpleasant. Stepfather says boy is "never disciplined and spoiled."

The next day (!) after Patrice disappeared, jerk husband changes the locks and never lets stepson in again, even to get his clothes. The kid was still in high school! Jerk stepfather does nothing to see the kid even finds his way to a new living situation. Doesn't appear to even speak to him again except to tell him he's never getting into the house, if that. Son ends up going on his own to ask the father to take him in.

To me, that's all I need to know. He *knew * she wasn't coming back! He wouldn't be kicking the kid out if he thought she'd be back to ask him WTF was he doing ejecting her son. He wasn't even making it easy for her to return. What if she'd been kidnapped, got away and came home and couldn't even get in?

Then when they find her remains, this bent psycho wants them to reassemble the bones so he could "see her again." He proceeds to pick up her skull and walks around the room with it. Later, he has her cremated.

Sorry, Charlie, I can't believe the police are acting so baffled. Maybe hoping to give him enough rope to hang himself.

[Annber03]

Yeah, that seems to be the general consensus about that episode. I fully agree-he's shady as hell and the way he treated his stepson is just...beyond appalling. Even if one doesn't think he's guilty, he's still a total asshole. 

[nokat]

5 hours ago, renatae said:

I just discovered the new Unsolved Mysteries series on Netflix.

That reminds me, I have the second season to watch. 
 

[renatae]

On 8/2/2020 at 8:53 PM, auntjess said:

I agree, and my pet peeve is "no one locks their doors."  
Maybe if they did, they'd be better off.
But I came to talk about Genetic Detective, which I really like, (and would love to have access to all those databases of obits and other articles she has.)
I've never submitted my DNA, because I'm more interested in names and places of real people, not just you x% from wherever, but I'd have no problem with someone using my DNA to find that a relative was a killer.

If you use Ancestry DNA, you can get names and relationships IF the other parties agree. Unfortunately, most of the people I get have their identities hidden. You can do a blind contact to the person who owns the tree to see if they will grant access to the IDs, but I'm mostly overwhelmed by all the results that come back in no particular order.

[renatae]

On 8/24/2020 at 5:41 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

This true life story featured in this documentary really takes the prize for the most bizarre reaction of parents towards their adult son who brutally murdered their adult daughter.   After many lies and denials he finally admits that he did it ONLY it was an accident......he just can’t explain how he shot her FIVE times.  Who knew prisons allow first degree murders to spend the weekends fellowshipping with their families on prison grounds. Really crazy stuff.  

 

 

In one of the articles quoted, this chuckle head apparently laments that when his parents are gone he won't have his sister's help. WTH? What a $%^~ narcissist! He planned to kill them all! 🤬

[renatae]

On 9/8/2020 at 4:52 PM, Annber03 said:

It was eerie to see my state of Iowa on the list of potential places he could've buried them.

I still can't get over the bit about him driving around with them in the car after the fact. Just...what the hell? Such an awful trip for Teri to have to make, but I'm so glad she was able to finally get the answers she needed. Thank goodness for that stranger. 

Hudson, OH, where he buried them, is within 5 minutes of my hometown. That was weird for me.

The woman who lived there and dedicated herself to helping find them is a heroine to me.

[renatae]

On 10/9/2020 at 9:43 AM, CountryGirl said:

I was also disappointed that there wasn't equal attention given to Blackburn's closing arguments, some of his statements are in my brain to this very day:

Thank you for a fantastic post, addressing so many key elements. I've always had a little doubt, mostly due to Helena Stockley's last statement before she died, insisting to her mother and anyone else who would listen, that she was there. (The so-called deathbed confession.) But this post and several others erased any doubt I still had.

Thinking over his attitude during that TV interview and the fact that he had no interest in any of his children's drawings or any other keepsakes from them was just the icing on the cake.

2 minutes ago, renatae said:

 

 

Edited October 21, 2020 by renatae

[SunnyBeBe]

On 10/8/2020 at 7:57 PM, One Tough Cookie said:

About 20 years ago Joe MaGuiness wrote a book called "Fatal Vision" and Mac was being intervened  on 60 Minutes .-he was smug as all get out.  At the end of the interview Wallace asked him if he was interested Mac's final opinion of him and being the narcissist he was he said sure. Wallace said "He thinks you are  pathological liar".  The look on Mac's face was priceless!

 

If you haven't read ""Fatal Vision" I highly recommend a trip to Amazon!

 

I have read it and seen the movie.  I actually have met Mr. Blackburn.  He's had a fascinating life. He encountered some problems after the McDonald case and ended up disbarred, but, he reinvented himself and became an excellent public speaker.  

https://greensboro.com/news/crime/the-jeffrey-macdonald-murder-case-where-are-they-now/article_c320bba2-ff3b-11ea-89db-53fdd0306736.html

[SunnyBeBe]

Jim really did go through a lot to fight his way back. He’s candid about his journey. After release from prison, he worked serving tables at a local restaurant in Raleigh, NC (42nd Street Oyster Bar).  He was awesome and so friendly to all those he served, especially attorneys. That’s where I met him. 
https://www.amazon.com/Flame-out-Prosecuting-Jeffrey-MacDonald-Serving/dp/0967737400

 

[LuvMyShows]

More incompetence...sorry, don't remember which show.  One of the early primary potential suspects gave an alibi, and then they gave him a polygraph.  IIRC, the detective said that he passed the polygraph, so he couldn't have done it and was ruled out as a suspect, so they never checked his very simple alibi.  WTAF?  No surprise, as time passed it became clear he was the murderer, and the alibi didn't hold up.

Also, enjoying City Confidential on True Crime Network.  The first 10 minutes or so is all about the city where the crime took place.  At first, that bothered me and I wanted them to get on with the mystery.  But now I am really enjoying learning a little bit about some towns and cities across the country.

[Annber03]

Was watching that show "Cursed Films" earlier, and they were talking about the horrific accident during the filming of the Twilight Zone movie that led to the deaths of Vic Morrow and two children. It still stuns me that there weren't tougher criminal charges against Landis and all those involved in filming that scene-they kept talking during the show about how accidents can happen on set and all that, and yeah, maybe that's true, but for one thing, they knew the explosions were pretty intense-the helicopter pilot reported how rough it was being in the air when the explosions were being tested, and for another, they were taking a lot of risks already with the set, up to and including using real bullets during an earlier scene where Vietnamese soldiers were supposed to be shooting at Vic's character. From the way everyone was talking about the filming, it sounded like Landis wasn't super concerned about safety protocols in general. 

But the biggest problem was that the kids were on set well past the time allowed by California's child labor laws. They said in the show that kids can't be on set after, like, eight pm, but it was 2:30 in the morning and the kids were still there, because they wanted an "authentic" nighttime scene. And what's more, they lied to the parents about the safety of the shoot and everything. Had they not violated those child labor laws and been more honest about the risks involved, the kids might still be alive. 

Surprisingly, they showed the footage of the helicopter crashing into the water. Thankfully, no shots of Vic or the children's bodies or anything like that, but knowing they were underneath the helicopter as it fell...eesh. Absolutely horrifying. 

Just such a sad, awful story. 

[chick binewski]

@Annber03 That story has so many layers of awful. Allegedly the pilot was new to the film business, the fire marshal was kept off set, and Steven Spielberg was there but split before authorities came (Spielberg has denied this). Morrow said before going on camera that the shot was too dangerous. Landis followed up the actual crash with a figurative one - going to Morrow's funeral uninvited to eulogize him with a movie promotion (Supernatural parodied this in Hollywood Babylon). 

There's also a blind item out there that this was murder. Even though I like my conspiracies I think this may have been created out of hatred for Landis and other bi's regarding Spielberg & Daivd Geffen.

[SandyToes]

I just watched an ID network "Evil Lives Here."  Shirley Allen, kills husbands, daughter Norma narrates.  Norma witnesses her mother poisoning her stepdad, is tortured herself, yet never says anything. Her stepdad is tortured for MONTHS, and is slowly dying before her eyes, and she never says anything, to anyone. I understand being afraid of her mother (and before the days of 911, etc), but to WATCH and know he's dying, and not say anything? I don't get it.  She works with elder care now, and says she thinks her stepdad is proud of her. Being abused does alter one's ability to act, I understand, but still. She wasn't a little girl - she was in her teens.  Mind-boggling.  And I'm guessing you tell yourself what you need to, in order to survive.  Horrible situation for Norma - glad she was able to have a "normal" life afterwards.

Edited October 25, 2020 by SandyToes

[Annber03]

8 hours ago, chick binewski said:

@Annber03 That story has so many layers of awful. Allegedly the pilot was new to the film business, the fire marshal was kept off set, and Steven Spielberg was there but split before authorities came (Spielberg has denied this). Morrow said before going on camera that the shot was too dangerous. Landis followed up the actual crash with a figurative one - going to Morrow's funeral uninvited to eulogize him with a movie promotion (Supernatural parodied this in Hollywood Babylon). 

There's also a blind item out there that this was murder. Even though I like my conspiracies I think this may have been created out of hatred for Landis and other bi's regarding Spielberg & Daivd Geffen.

Yeah, I was reading the Wiki about this after watching the episode last night and saw the mention of the fire marshal and Morrow's feelings. That's really shitty. Hadn't heard about some of that other stuff, though. I'd read that Spielberg had cut off his friendship with Landis after the movie, which, good, but that bit about the authorities is interesting.

This part of the Wiki was also horrible to read:

Quote

Lee survived the Vietnam War and immigrated with his wife to the United States, and he was horrified when the explosions began on the Vietnamese village set, bringing back memories of the war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight_Zone_accident

So first he has to relive traumatic memories of a war that forced him to flee his homeland, and then he has to watch his child die in a truly godawful way. Talk about hell. I can't help wondering if the people who worked on that set took advantage of the fact that the parents may not have been all that familiar with the state laws regarding safety procedures and whatnot and used that as an excuse to lie to them about the risks involved. 

And yeah, they showed clips of Landis at the funeral for Morrow, and his speech definitely sounded rather...self-serving. His comments in the Wiki article come off that way, too, talking about the impact it had on him and everything. That's wild that "Supernatural" had an episode that parodied that-now I'm kinda curious to check that one out. 

I also agree with you on the conspiracy theories-yeah, I don't think this was murder or anything of that sort, either. Just the result of a lot of really stupid, incredibly careless decisions that could have easily been avoided. They discussed this tragedy in the context of the era of filmmaking that had been big in the '70s and which was still continuing into the early '80s, where directors went totally gonzo and anything went and they had all the power and studios rarely interfered and whatnot, so it's not surprising that in that kind of era something like this happened eventually. It was really only a matter of time. 

They also mentioned a book that had been written about this tragedy-I'll have to see if I can find that.