The Books vs. The Show: Comparisons, Speculation, and Snark

[nodorothyparker]

Dougal was in Paris at the same time they found out Black Jack was still alive and at the duke's house.  I never made that connection before.  I can't remember his stated reason for being there without checking the book, but I know Claire later figures out he was there at the time to place his and Gellis's child with its adoptive parents.

 

Yes, Dougal and Jamie were off hunting with the duke at the time the witchcraft thing blew up because they were trying to wrangle a pardon for Jamie.  The duke was known to have a thing for young boys and had unsuccessfully pursued Jamie when he was 16.

Edited September 14, 2014 by nodorothyparker

[lianau]

Since there will be a second season about DiA , I was thinking about John Grey's first appearance . He's pretty much a plot device to give Jamie and his men information about English troops in that book, but he's also  the reason for Jamie's survival after Culloden . I'm really interested in how they will handle that.

Edited September 15, 2014 by lianau

[Tif]

I have enjoyed most of the deviations from the book. One thing I love is changing how Claire was really told about Jamie's flogging at the hand of BJR from Dougal at St. Ninian's spring to BJR. It brings me back to this quote from Jamie to Claire later in the book

“Now, listen. Ye understand me, ye say, and I believe it. But there’s a difference between understandin’ something with your mind and really knowing it, deep down.”

Even though she had seen Jamie's scars, Dougal telling her the story is not as impactful as BJR telling her what happened from his point of view.

That was genius on Ron Moore's part.

[Pogojoco]

The wistfulness on BJR's part also sets up his twisted thing for Jamie. Giving that story to Dougal removes that. 

 

I always thought the BJR thing for Jamie was a mix of being sexually into punishment in general, but also punishing Jamie for "inspiring" those feelings of attraction. There is a lot of loathing. And the whole idea of them making a masterpiece together, implying Jamie is a complicit partner in it.

 

What a dark episode. 

 

Poor Jamie. 

Edited September 15, 2014 by Pogojoco

[ohhellsyeah]

Considering how gut wrenching the flogging scene was . . . how are we all going to survive the events at the end of book? Yeash. Poor Jamie indeed.

[rainsmom]

My speculation is that the last third of the book will be condensed into three episodes -- one at the prison, one at the house where his initial treatment is and on the boat to France, and one at the abby in France. It's a lot of pages in the book, but I don't think they're going to spend THAT much time on the torture, PTSD, and healing of Jamie. They'll condense it.

[thingamajig]

My speculation is that the last third of the book will be condensed into three episodes -- one at the prison, one at the house where his initial treatment is and on the boat to France, and one at the abby in France. It's a lot of pages in the book, but I don't think they're going to spend THAT much time on the torture, PTSD, and healing of Jamie. They'll condense it.

I hope so.  And they really do need to condense a lot of what will come in the second half of the season.  The wedding comes about a third of the way through the book (maybe a little less than that even) and is happening at almost the halfway point of the season.  I'm guessing a lot of what happens at Lallybroch will be cut and/or condensed too.

[nodorothyparker]

Considering that not a whole lot happens at Lollybroch other than weirdly sexual talk between Jenny and Jamie about pregnancy and the Black Jack "rape" and Jamie and Ian fondly reminiscing about every single time they got their asses beat as kids, it's probably a fair assumption that they're either going to have to condense it or find something else to add in there.

Edited September 16, 2014 by nodorothyparker

[dustoffmom]

 

I'm guessing a lot of what happens at Lallybroch will be cut and/or condensed too.

 

(double checking to be sure what forum I am replying to!)

Okay.....count me as one who would be so saddened to see the above happen!  Claire's first sight of Lallybroch and subsequent first meeting with Jenny and particularly Ian is among my favorite scenes of the darn book!  I loved that period and how much information we were given into all of them!

[ohhellsyeah]

I loved the Lallybroach scenes too, but I don't they are necessary to advance the plot. Plotwise, the only important thing of note is Jamie's capture. I agree that the end of the book will be condensed, but at least one episode will be devoted to events at Wentworth prison. Which is going to be really hard to watch.

[Tif]

After reading most of the comments in the Episode threads I think the one thing I don't like about this series is how it has condensed a lot of the interactions between Jamie and Claire leading up to the wedding.  In the book, there's more interaction that what has been shown that doesn't make it seem so thrown together.  

So for someone that is unsullied and they don't see why it's happening, I can understand why they don't get it, but as someone that has read this book too many times to count all I can do is sigh, bite my tongue to not yell "READ THE BOOK!" and wait for next week.  

 

Edited to fix...because proper grammar is good. 

Edited September 16, 2014 by Tif

[ohhellsyeah]

There has definitely not been enough Jamie.

[Tif]

No there really hasn't.  I can understand some of the comments from people who haven't read the books, but when they start criticizing actual characterization I have a hard time because the characters are fleshed out in the book and if they actually read the book, they'd know.  

It's my issue, I know.  :)

[nodorothyparker]

I've had to make the decision not to comment in episode threads at all for that very reason.  I don't trust myself at this point to not do a "well, if you'd just read the book..."

 

Some of the comments here and elsewhere have me thinking that there were people who went into this show thinking it was a Scottish version of Pride and Prejudice and are now shocked! that a lot of Scottish history (including the period this story is set) tended to be kind of bloody.

 

But yeah, they cut a lot of the developing friendship with Jamie and some of his characterization and I think the story's now feeling a bit disjointed as a result.

[absnow54]

I like the point of view from those who haven't read the book because when I read the book for the first time, I sort of plowed through it because I was so excited to see what happened next, that there were lots of little things I didn't question because they explained the reasoning for it later. I think when you only give a viewer so much information at a time there's more time to analyze and pop holes in certain plot points. A lot of the things that have been brought up I had never questioned -- obviously Dougal's just doing this for political reasons that will be revealed 10 chapters from now! -- but within the context of what we currently know in the show verse, there are plenty of "wait..." moments for me at least. Outlander is a really fun and compelling story, but it was produced by a first time writer as an exercise, so the plot isn't air tight and I think the pacing of the show brings some of those issues to light. I don't think any of it is a detriment to the overall story, more just little things that you wonder why none of the characters are questioning or challenging certain decisions.

Edited September 16, 2014 by absnow54

[onthebrink03]

No there really hasn't.  I can understand some of the comments from people who haven't read the books, but when they start criticizing actual characterization I have a hard time because the characters are fleshed out in the book and if they actually read the book, they'd know.  

It's my issue, I know.  :)

I'm someone who hasn't read the books (although that may change after this season) and I have no problem whatsoever with the characterizations or the the plot movement.

 

I understand that as a book reader, you would have the luxury of pages upon pages devoted to character development but in a filmed show one has to be economical and smart or you would have a series that could be never-ending.  How many episodes would it take to fully explore, in great detail, all aspects of each character?  20, 30, 50?  Not going to happen...

 

I happen to think what Ron Moore and his staff of writers have come up with is more than satisfactory to pique my interest and hold it for an hour each week.  Actually, I think what they've done is bloody fantastic.  They've managed to insinuate much with a few lines and the actors themselves have done a stellar job of fleshing out their characters with small looks, interesting physical movements and such.  If questions remain, I just assume all will be revealed when necessary.  

 

I know that may be just me, but I am loving everything about this show and am chomping at the bit each and every week for the next installment

[thingamajig]

Well and when you read the book, you don't have to wait a week between chapters and spend all that time questioning the characters' motivations, etc. 

[Tif]

I'm not naming names or calling anyone out specifically, because I know it's my issue.   I'm just venting my frustration.  

 

[Pestilentia]

 

I happen to think what Ron Moore and his staff of writers have come up with is more than satisfactory to pique my interest and hold it for an hour each week.  Actually, I think what they've done is bloody fantastic.  They've managed to insinuate much with a few lines and the actors themselves have done a stellar job of fleshing out their characters with small looks, interesting physical movements and such.  If questions remain, I just assume all will be revealed when necessary.  

I wish everyone had your faith. I know that when my husband (who isn't a reader) has issues my most oft quoted line is "When they want you to know they will tell you!"

 

When I read of others being disappointed or close to giving up the show all I can think is "But... but... but..." then see I am in the episode thread and have to bite my tongue.

 

 

I know that may be just me, but I am loving everything about this show and am chomping at the bit each and every week for the next installment

Me, too- I love everything and I've got it bad.

[WatchrTina]

 

I loved the Lallybroach scenes too, but I don't they are necessary to advance the plot. Plotwise, the only important thing of note is Jamie's capture.

I can think of a couple more important plot points.

 

1. it is revealed that Dougal LIED to Jamie about Jenny.  All this time Jamie has not gone back to Lallybroch because Dougal told him that not only did Jenny get pregnant with Black Jack's child, she took up with another English officer after the baby was born because she needed an English protector.  That was a terrible lie by Dougal -- done, I presume, to drive a wedge between Jamie and his only remaining family in the hopes of somehow incorporating Jamie's lands into the MacKenzie lands.

 

2. When Claire leaves Lallybroch to try to find Jamie, Jenny reveals that Jamie told her that if Claire ever gave her advice about the future, Jenny was to follow it.  Claire tells her to plant potatoes (because she knows a famine is coming when the traditional highland crops will fail.)  This probably saves many of the tenants and also drives home the point that Jamie truly believes Claire knows about the future and has even revealed it somewhat to Jenny.

 

Claire attending at the birth of Jenny's daughter is not necessary to the plot but it's an awfully nice moment of character development all around -- particularly when Claire is about to chastise Ian for getting drunk and then she realizes that he is devastated, thinking she's come to tell him that Jenny has died during that very long labor.  It's also interesting because Claire says "send for the midwife" because although she's a nurse, she doesn't know everything.  It will be good to see her acknowledges her limits.

 

But yeah, you could incorporate all all three points plus Jamie's capture easily into one episode and I suspect that is what they will do.

 

Oooh, the scene where Jamie is trying to fix the water wheel and a the redcoats show up!  Let's hope they keep that one too.  High drama and the opportunity for a wet, nekkid Jamie.  :)

Edited September 16, 2014 by WatchrTina

[bluebonnet]

I think what I liked most about Lallybrock is that we finally get to see who Jamie is.  This part of the story is like the Jamie interlude.  Since it's all filtered through Claire's POV and she isn't alway with Jamie, it's a relatively few scenes.  And yet, this interlude felt like the reader was finally given good reasons for Claire deciding to stay.  For me, Jamie became a person here rather than this too-good-to-be-true romantic hero cliche.  

[Tif]

I loved Jamie and Claire at Lallybroch.  There is a lot that can be condensed down, but there are some really wonderful scenes.  Besides Jamie and Claire, when I heard they were making this into a series I really wanted to see Jamie and Ian's relationship on screen.  Even though they aren't portraying Jamie as left-handed, I really hope that they leave this in.

“Watch them sometime, when they’re walking the fields together. I dinna suppose they even realize they do it still, but they do. Jamie always moves to the left, so Ian can take up his place on the right, guardin’ the weak side.”

[mybabyaidan]

I think they keep the birth in because I remember Cait and Sam discussing a scene where the actor playing Ian has to run up steps with Claire behind him, and it was awkward because he kept slipping with his wooden leg.   The birthing scene is the only scene I recall that happening...

[Glaze Crazy]

Wait, what? They actually found an actor with a wooden leg?  I saw the picture of the actor but I didn't do any research on his other roles or anything.

[SpiritSong]

I am kind of bummed they left out the "choice" Claire had.  If I remember correctly, she could marry Rupert or Jamie.   I would have loved to see Rupert's reaction to that.   What would St Paul say about that??  Or his left and right

I also liked that scene in the book. When Claire objected to marrying Jamie because she didn't want to marry anyone, Dougal thoughtfully offered up Rupert as an alternative because he was a widower and thus available.

But what really made me laugh was when she said Jamie might not want to marry her Dougal replied that Jamie was a soldier and would do what he was told. Poor Rupert probably would have had his objections ignored too. Apparently if the clan war chieftain says get married, you marry.

[annlaw78]

I think that in the showverse, in which it's not clear if Dougal is married, it seems Claire is reluctant to push back, lest Dougal decide to do step up to the plate, erm, altar, in substitute.

[Tif]

I am watching Episode 106 and I noticed something during the flogging scene in the background. Since we know that Jamie's dad is there, there is a shot of Dougal and Brian Fraser is out of focus over his shoulder. But you can tell it's him, It looks like he's starting to sway.

Did anyone else see this or think the same?

[DoughGirl]

 

Some of the comments here and elsewhere have me thinking that there were people who went into this show thinking it was a Scottish version of Pride and Prejudice and are now shocked! that a lot of Scottish history (including the period this story is set) tended to be kind of bloody.

 

But yeah, they cut a lot of the developing friendship with Jamie and some of his characterization and I think the story's now feeling a bit disjointed as a result.

This is sort of what I was trying to get at in my posts in Unpopular Opinions. How much time did they spend in the last episode on BJR and what makes him tick (I, for one, don't buy it. I think he is just a born psycho who was probably pulling wings off flies when he was a kid) to the point where I turned it off, while cutting scenes of the Jamie and Claire story which is, to me at least, THE story of Outlander. If I hadn't read the book I wouldn't get it at all.

Outlander is a great story that women can enjoy without being too sweet and saccharine, but unfortunately is thought of by some as a bodice ripper romance. I think Ron Moore and Co. are bending over backwards so as to not make it into what might be termed a "chick flick" to the detriment of the story as a whole.

[insubordination]

I like what they're doing with it all,  but there has been a puzzling lack of Jamie. I think that they wanted to show what Tobias Menzies can do since he appears on all the promo shots, but was barely in the last couple of episodes.

 

I remember being disappointed with how Dougal looked in the first ep, but now I'm half enamoured with the actor/character and he's almost the lead to me. Not that I don't appreciate Sam Huegan/Jamie but they don't seem to give him enough airtime. 

 

Catriona has totally won me over even though she's not quite what I had imagined.

Edited September 17, 2014 by insubordination

[ohhellsyeah]

And yet OTOH there are all the posts in the episode thread about Jamie and Claire getting married being stupid and contrived because Outlander is just a bodice ripper. I guess you really can't please everyone.

I loved episode 106, but I still wish Jamie's character was more developed at this point. He's supposed to be the male lead, but BJR, Frank and Dougal are all more developed than Jaime.

[DoughGirl]

I like what they're doing with it all, but there has been a puzzling lack of Jamie. I think that they wanted to show what Tobias Menzies can do since he appears on all the promo shots, but was barely in the last couple of episodes.

JMO, but I'd rather they make a good show as a whole than show me what Tobias Menzies can do. And he could have shown what he could do at Wentworth. Edited September 17, 2014 by DoughGirl

[seaELare]

Or TPTB think Toby Menzies and Graham McTavish are much stronger actors than Sam Heughan?

[ohhellsyeah]

You may be right about that. If so, they should have cast better because this show really is on the shoulders of Claire/Jamie. If either of those characters don't work this thing is dead in the water.

[morgan]

I see a lot of you complaining about not enough Jamie, and I agree to a point.  But I also remember reading the book for the first time 8 years ago and I was very mixed then and didn't know Jamie was supposed to be the male lead at that point.  I remember being so anxious for Claire to get back to Frank, who I believed she genuinely loved.  I remember being a bit intrigued by Dougal and even thinking at one point he and Claire might get together.  All of this I see in the show.  And I actually think Sam is doing an amazing job as Jamie.  At different points he shows his youth, his age, his vulnerability, his strength, his humor, and his moral code.  He hasn't been in as much as Claire, but he wasn't early on in the book.  After the marriage that changes and I expect to see/learn a lot more about Jamie and am well looking forward to it!!!! 

Edited September 17, 2014 by morgan

[glitterpants]

I see a lot of you complaining about not enough Jamie, and I agree to a point.  But I also remember reading the book for the first time 8 years ago and I was very mixed then and didn't know Jamie was supposed to be the male lead at that point.

Yes! When I started reading the books I had no idea what they were about (except maybe Scotland! and Time travel!) and I really enjoyed how low key the Jamie/Claire romance aspect of things was until the wedding, and how Jamie the character was very gradually revealed. For the TV show, they can't hide the fact that Jamie is the male lead because they need this to promote the show, so I feel like this creates even more impatience for Jamie/Claire to get going and for him to be on screen more often. 

[WatchrTina]

 

For the TV show, they can't hide the fact that Jamie is the male lead because they need this to promote the show, so I feel like this creates even more impatience for Jamie/Claire to get going and for him to be on screen more often.

Given that the next episode is the wedding and will be very Jamie-centric, I actually thought it was brilliant of the writers to have an episode with so little of Jamie in it.  It made that moment when Jamie's face appears in the corner of the screen as he walks toward Claire all the more satisfying.  I know I cheered when I saw him.  I just knew I was going to get a scene that would be a balm to my soul after all the torture and suspense I had just watched.  I don't think I realized how much I was missing a Jamie-and-Claire scene until that very moment. 

[absnow54]

Or TPTB think Toby Menzies and Graham McTavish are much stronger actors than Sam Heughan?

I don't think they're really playing favorites here, I just think that Graham and Tobias have the more interesting roles. Dougal especially is a very complex character and Claire never knows whether to trust him or not. Everything he does is compelling because he's unpredictable. Similar with BJR. We know that he's twisted and dark, but we don't know his limits, so everything he does leaves us on edge. With Jamie, besides her early encounters with him where he threatens to throw her over his shoulder, he has been a character who Claire immediately trusts and relies on. Often the hero is the least interesting to watch because we know he'll do the right thing. And with Jamie, especially, there's not much mystery, because he'll give you the full, detailed story without much prompting. I think as the season progresses Jamie will become a more realized character and will have more noteworthy scenes, but I think because of their complexities, Dougal and BJR will continue to be the characters who spark the most interest.

Edited September 17, 2014 by absnow54

[tallyrand]

There really wasn't that much Jamie at the beginning of the book though. I think Old Alec, for example, talked about Jamie more so it felt like he was more present. But I believe almost every Jamie/Claire interaction before the wedding was in the show, although maybe shortened a little (i.e the confrontation between Jamie/Dougal and the swordplay, the scene at the stables where in the book he recites a prayer to Claire). They even added in the scenes with the Black Kirk that didn't happen in the book and Jamie talking to Claire about her attitude.

 

I think that Ron Moore is trying to make the story a bit more than Claire's adventures in the past, but rather set it up for the way more political second book.  Dougal's role hasn't even really been beefed up that much and in the latter half of the season, you barely see him. And beefing up Jack's role also leads to more of a conflict and engages the viewers a bit more. 

 

I would safely assume that from this point forward it will be all Jamie. In a way, having Jamie be more a background character, allows the viewers to get to know him at the same time Claire is getting to know him, especially through the wedding night and the "honeymoon." That's really when we as readers find out more about Jamie and who he is. I think the Wedding episode will be Jamie's breakthrough. 

Edited September 17, 2014 by tallyrand

[NoNeinNyet]

I would safely assume that from this point forward it will be all Jamie. In a way, having Jamie be more a background character, allows the viewers to get to know him at the same time Claire is getting to know him, especially through the wedding night and the "honeymoon." That's really when we as readers find out more about Jamie and who he is. I think the Wedding episode will be Jamie's breakthrough. 

 

It's why I'm interested to see how they handle the beating and the aftermath of that. I've been listening to the audiobook in short spurts and they finally just got back to Leoch. Jamie tells Claire so much about himself while he's trying to get back in her good graces/give her enough information so that she might understand where he is coming from.

 

It's also why I'm concerned about how much they have to fit into the second half of the season. I'm fine with less Jamie pre-wedding but I'm so concerned about how much of the stuff that defines his character will have to be compressed in order to fit the actual plot of the rest of the book into the last eight episodes. I do love the idea of the first half of the season mostly being about Claire and how she fits into this world and the second half being more about Jamie and how Claire finds her place now that she's with him. That may very well be why they've divided the season in the way they did.

[blithers]

I do love the idea of the first half of the season mostly being about Claire and how she fits into this world and the second half being more about Jamie and how Claire finds her place now that she's with him.

 

I think that's very much what we're going to see.  If you've seen the latest sneak peek,

for the first time in the entire series we have a scene *without* Claire, but with Jamie. We have multiple images from the upcoming episode that suggest the same thing - Jamie but no Claire, for the first time ever.

I think the Wedding episode is going to be a hard left turn for the series into having two main POV characters, which I LOVE, because really, you don't find out a ton about Jamie in the books until the wedding, when he pole vaults to much greater importance.

Edited September 17, 2014 by blithers

[CatMack]

Wanted to address the discussion happening in the spoiler thread, but that's a no book talk place.  So I'm addressing it here.  There are spoilers for the next episode and comparisons to the book below.

 

So, yes, the missing pearl necklace.  The pearls are important later, but there's also no reason he can't give them to her later.  Like maybe in the show the pearls will still be at Lallybroch (why does he have them with him in the book when he was taken away as a prisoner and never went back?) and he gives them to her after she's told him the truth about where she's from and she's made the choice to stay with him.  That could make for a very emotional scene on the show.  Is it a necessary change?  Maybe, maybe not.  Pacing works differently on screen than in books.  In books it's all one story, in a show not only is the season as a whole a story, but individual episodes have to be paced well too.  They may need that emotional moment later, to help give the time at Lallybroch some punch.  Because while I love Jenny and Ian, their time there isn't the most eventful. 

[Petunia846]

I could handle it if they did it like that.

[blithers]

I like that idea a lot, CatMack.

[mybabyaidan]

Wait, what? They actually found an actor with a wooden leg?  I saw the picture of the actor but I didn't do any research on his other roles or anything.

 

I am not sure either way.  I suppose the actor could be wearing a fake....

[Tif]

I am not sure either way.  I suppose the actor could be wearing a fake....

The actor was wearing a fake leg.  Sam and Cait were laughing while describing it.  Ian is supposed to be running up the stairs in that scene and the actor was having issues. 

[peacefrog]

I'm excited for the wedding night like everyone else because it means more Jamie, but wasn't in the book it really awkward?

I also just realised that the show has already had a scene not from Claire's POV. It was also a major scene. Let's play a game, anyone else remember? :)

[Pestilentia]

http://www.people.com/article/outlander-wedding-images-exclusive

 

I'm a bit sad about there being no red plaid tartan-  "A Highlander in full regalia is an impressive sight- any Highlander, no matter how old, ill favored, or crabbed in appearance. A tall straight bodied, and by no means ill favored young Highlander at close range is breath taking."

 

It just conjured up such an image- they had just better make Jamie absolutely resplendant, that's all.

[bluebonnet]

I also just realised that the show has already had a scene not from Claire's POV. It was also a major scene. Let's play a game, anyone else remember? :)

Well, technically two.  One with Geillis looking out the window and watching Jamie and Claire help the pillory boy and the other with the guy putting on his coat.  The second I didn't understand the point since it was already clear that Jeremy Foster (is that his name?) was an English officer.  But the Geillis one was really good because it showed that she's not just curious about Claire, but found it interesting how Claire and Jamie interacted together.  

[peacefrog]

Those weren't the first! Keep thinking!

[bluebonnet]

Frank and the Reverend?