S04.E01: Two Swords

[Conan Troutman]

Not really, but I guess she could learn a thing or two from Bronn. For now, the Hound probably also has some dirty tricks up his sleeve he could teach her. But for the long haul, she needs to get to Braavos and learn from the Faceless Men. They seem to be of the sneaky sort and kill from distance without a fight (as shown by Jaqen's kill of that guy directly in front of Tywin's door, don't remember his name), which would play to her strengths. To put it in RPG terms: She's clearly a thief, not a fighter. 

[sev]

Put the chickie in the basket!

Cool touch adding a pollo to this thread. The inn keeper should have been Swedish.

[Constantinople]

Dorne sure has some odd sigils: A vulture clutching a baby, a crowned skull, lemons on a purple field (Words? Pucker is coming?), a smiling sun clutching two scoops of raisins

[Sakura12]

^ yeah, I think GRRM ran out of ideas for sigils, or those familes were too late and lost out on getting the cool ones.

[90PercentGravity]

Well, the fact that one has a lemon actually provides a good visual shortcut for letting us know Dorne is in a tropical region, as did Oberyn's swarthy complexion. Maybe it should have been a vulture carrying a coconut.

Edited April 8, 2014 by 90PercentGravity

[Sakura12]

Dorne's a desert region by the way they are dressed and their bastards are named Sand. I think The Reach where the Tyrells are from is more tropical.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Sakura12

[LittleIggy]

Here is the Jimmy Kimmel ad spoof:

http://www.uproxx.com/webculture/2014/04/jimmy-kimmel-made-inevitable-game-thrones-kfc-ad-mashup/

[joliefaire]

Dorne's a desert region by the way they are dressed and their bastards are named Sand. I think The Reach where the Tyrells are from is more tropical.

I think of the Reach as more a temperate zone, rather than tropical.  Their symbol is a rose, which is not a tropical plant, plus Olenna mentions the vast quantities of wheat, oats, barley, etc. that they've donated to keep King's Landing fed.

[Sakura12]

The Game of Thrones wiki says The Reach is Sub-Tropic, while Dorne is desert. Wheat can be grown in tropical weather.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Sakura12

[dramachick]

When Prince Oberyn - my new love interest, although I still have undying love for Robb Stark - was talking about how Ragar (sp) left his wife for another woman, I saw things in a totally different light from when Robert Baratheon was talking to Ned in the first season about what "Ragar did to Lyanna."

Oberyn strikes me as a person who tells it like it is (or was), and if Ragar had been a kidnapper, Oberyn would have called him such. 

It's amazing how the Ragar-Lyanna affair/kidnapping/confusion could set off a chain-reaction of devastation lasting even decades later.

[joliefaire]

When Prince Oberyn - my new love interest, although I still have undying love for Robb Stark -

sukeyna, this one's for you.  :P 

http://rhoynishblood.tumblr.com/post/80504397963/oberyn-martell-at-the-game-of-thrones-directing

Edited April 8, 2014 by joliefaire

[dramachick]

sukeyna, this one's for you.  :P 

http://rhoynishblood...rones-directing

joliefaire, that link takes me back to this page.

[CletusMusashi]

Well, the fact that one has a lemon actually provides a good visual shortcut for letting us know Dorne is in a tropical region, as did Oberyn's swarthy complexion. Maybe it should have been a vulture carrying a coconut.

Is that an African or European vulture?

[joliefaire]

joliefaire, that link takes me back to this page.

My bad, duh...  fixed now, sorry.

http://rhoynishblood.tumblr.com/post/80504397963/oberyn-martell-at-the-game-of-thrones-directing

[Haldebrandt]

He wasn't specifically invited. The Lannisters invited the Martell family to the wedding because not inviting a high ranking noble family like that . . . would be a huge insult. The Lannisters expected Oberyn's older brother to attend, not Oberyn.

I see it differently:  it's unthinkable that the ruling family of one of the Seven Kingdoms would not attend the King's wedding.  Hard to imagine a greater slight to the King (though Walder Frey would probably disagree...).  So I wouldn't even call it an invitation so much as fulfillment of a duty to attend.  The invitation is literally a formality...

Edited April 8, 2014 by Haldebrandt

[dramachick]

My bad, duh...  fixed now, sorry.

http://rhoynishblood.tumblr.com/post/80504397963/oberyn-martell-at-the-game-of-thrones-directing

Oh yes.  He is so sexy.  Thanks!

[paigow]

Rejected sigil... 

[Constantinople]

Remember back in the old days -- Season 1 & 2 -- when Cersei or the Hound or someone would call Sansa "Little Dove"?

There is no strict division between pigeons and doves, which share certain features, including small, rounded heads, small, slim bills with a small fleshy patch at the base, rounded bodies with dense, soft feathers, tapered wings and short, scaly legs, and cooing or crooning calls. The wild rock dove has long been domesticated and ‘escaped’ to live wild as the familiar town pigeon.

Royal Society for the Protection of Birds

 
So perhaps offering Sansa pigeon pie wasn't the best choice.

Speaking of, between pigeons and chickens, perhaps the title of the episode should have been Two Birds.

At the very least, a number of characters flipped each other the bird.

[Wilowy]

Ha! And there was a preponderance of goats, too. Dany's dragons ate one, on the road beside Tyrion, and someone talked about having his way with a shaved one. Ew. 

[Snowblack]

I loved the season opener.  In the past, episodes with this much stuffed into them have seemed rushed and disorienting.  I didn't feel that way about this episode at all.  Ending with a series of Hound/Arya scenes was fantastic. 

I didn't catch on at first that Tywin was melting down Ned's sword.  I thought it was Robb's sword and Robb's wolf's pelt until Tywin mentions the sword having been large enough to make two.  I imagine Tywin had planned to give Jaime the two-handed sword, but changed plans once a one-handed Jaime returned.  Tywin sending Jaime off to Casterly Rock was a good idea.  It gets him away from Cersei and the King's Guard, and it forces him to take on his role as Tywin's heir.  Of course, Cersei will supposedly go be Loras' bride in High Garden soon enough (but I have my doubts about that ever happening).

I liked the new characters from Dorne.  I don't think Oberyn is attractive at all, and his hatred for the Lannisters makes me think that Myrcella might not be any better off in Dorne than Sansa is in King's Landing.  Having a vengeful prince running around in King's Landing might make for some fun scenes.  It would be nice to see Tywin uncomfortable for once.

I'm thrilled that Arya found Needle! Now she needs her wolf back.  :)  When I saw that inn, I wondered if she might be reunited with Hot Pie, even if just for a scene.  I was surprised Arya waited so long to jump into the fight.  I know she wants the Hound to die, but the consequences would have been horrific for her.  I like that she got her first taste of revenge.  It reminded me very much of the scene where Brienne kills that last Stark soldier who raped the tavern wench. 

The new Daario...I don't know how I feel about him.  If they had cast this actor originally, I'm sure it would be fine.  They should at least have put him in a long wig, so he doesn't look like every other male in the series.  He also doesn't have the same swagger as the S3 Daario.  He's acting like a lovesick puppy.  The flower scene was just lame.

Cersei's rejection of Jaime surprised me.  I guess it goes to show how wrapped up in herself she truly is.  All sorts of random rejection going on all of a sudden.  Tyrion not being in the mood struck me as wrong for his character.  He went from having unquenchable lust to disinterest because...he's stressed?  He's married?  Huh?  It makes no sense to me.

So my questions after this episode (that I don't want answered):

I'm wondering whether the necklace Ser Dontos gave Sansa was the same one the Queen of Thorns threw into the bushes, or if it really was a family heirloom.  The necklace obviously will have some significance. 

Did Tywin really disown Jaime?  That doesn't make sense, since (I assume) that truly does make Tyrion Tywin's heir.  I thought Tywin was pretty clear about his thoughts on that eventuality.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Snowblack

[CletusMusashi]

People seem really sure that he disowned him, but I'm not convinced. I mean, we've seen how Tywin acts when he wants to cut someone down a notch. At no point in the conversation with Jaime did he show the level of contempt or dismissal that we all know he is quite capable of.

Also, I rewatched it tonight to check on somethng that I thought I saw the first time, and, yes, that second sword is way shorter than the one Jaime got. 

If both were similar in size, then I could hypothesize that one was for Tywin, one was for Joffrey, one was for something that we wouldn't understand until the next plot twist, or even that the other one was being traded to Roose Bolton or somebody for... whatever. But I'm thinking he made one for Jaime, and one for Tyrion, and he's going to play some kind of chessmaster schtick to determine who gets Castelry. I don't see playing them against each other as being effective; either one of them would be happy for the other one to get the gig. And I do think he's rooting for Jaime. But the short sword was fairly certainly made for Tyrion. And you don't just casually have a midget-sword reforged out of Valyrian steel simply to mess with the taller brothers head. I think?

[Wilowy]

 

Also, I rewatched it tonight to check on somethng that I thought I saw the first time, and, yes, that second sword is way shorter than the one Jaime got.

Nicely caught! We know Tywin never does anything without a reason, I wonder what he's got up his sleeve...

[marcee]

 

Great show! The new Daario is disappointing. He looks like. Westeros guy. He should be more exotic and southern, ya ask me.

I was so distracted by the new guy that it kind of ruined the rest of the episode for me. This Daario is SOOOO much different from last season's Daario in both appearance and attitude, it's jarring. Last season's Daario put me in mind of Khal Drago -- big, exotic, powerful, proving his worth by showing his strength. This new one, not so much. He looks like everyone else: smaller, dirty, bearded, no defining characteristic at all; there's absolutely nothing stand-out about him. I'm very disappointed in the change. I'm sure there's a legit reason for the recast, but they could have at least stayed true to the character they introduced, no?

Edited April 9, 2014 by marcee

[NoWillToResist]

 

Cersei's rejection of Jaime surprised me.  I guess it goes to show how wrapped up in herself she truly is.  All sorts of random rejection going on all of a sudden.  Tyrion not being in the mood struck me as wrong for his character.  He went from having unquenchable lust to disinterest because...he's stressed?  He's married?  Huh?  It makes no sense to me.

At first, I thought Cersei was being practical with her rejection of Jaime because she's now engaged but then I remembered that she was fucking him while married to the king, so there went that theory. Out of sight, out of mind I guess. Petty, much? Dang. Move on, Jaime!

As far as Tyrion is concerned, I actually think he may have turned down Shae out of respect for Sansa. He's a decent guy and is well aware of how unwanted this marriage was for both of them. She's also hurting emotionally because of what his family did to hers, so I feel like it wasn't so much that he wasn't in the mood and more felt that it wouldn't have been right to fuck Shae (particularly on his wife's bed). I was super pissed at Shae's actions but perhaps she doesn't realize that T and S aren't having sex? Anyway, her behaviour struck me as out of character for someone who's been shown to have a good head on her shoulders and a good ability to read a room. It's amazing that I went from liking her to being ready for her to be dispatched in the span on one scene!

I continue to love Margaery's grandmother. Her fangirling over Brienne was hilarious.

I was also glad to see Jon kind of 'whatever, dudes' to the Wall's council and just laid out what was coming. He had no time and gave no fucks about their threats to his personal safety.

Jaime is much more tolerable when around Brienne. Can I get more of them? I agree with those who think that that duo, combined with the Arya/Hound duo, riding around and sassing everything they see, would be endlessly entertaining.

I find I do not care about Khaleesi and her exploits. Is that wrong?

I find myself constantly amazed that Tywin's grown children still do his bidding. Can't they tell him to fuck off or something? :)  Sure, he's the only sane and competent one but I'm kind of surprised that Joffrey hasn't had him killed so that he can get his inheritance while being rid of his grandfather's lack of deference.

[izabella]

I'm wondering whether the necklace Ser Dontos gave Sansa was the same one the Queen of Thorns threw into the bushes, or if it really was a family heirloom.  The necklace obviously will have some significance.

I don't think it's the same necklace.  All the necklaces Margery was looking at (that I recall) were showy and chunky and gold (no stones) while the Dontos necklace was a delicate gold chain with blue stones.

I agree the Dontos necklace will have some significance...like Chekhov's gun.  Why show it at all if it won't come into play?  It's not like we were all wondering, "Gee, wonder what happened to the knight-now-Fool whose life Sansa saved."   At least, I forgot about that guy almost as soon as he was off screen.

I'm guessing there's some magic in the necklace, or someone will recognize it at some point when we've forgotten all about it.

I find myself constantly amazed that Tywin's grown children still do his bidding. Can't they tell him to fuck off or something? :)  Sure, he's the only sane and competent one but I'm kind of surprised that Joffrey hasn't had him killed so that he can get his inheritance while being rid of his grandfather's lack of deference.

Tywin's the only one who has even a small bit of control over Joffrey at this point.  Get rid of Tywin, and you almost have to commit to killing Joffrey soon before he kills you.

[NoWillToResist]

 

Tywin's the only one who has even a small bit of control over Joffrey at this point.  Get rid of Tywin, and you almost have to commit to killing Joffrey soon before he kills you.

I'm actually totally okay with that arrangement. ;)

[izabella]

I'm actually totally okay with that arrangement. ;)

Ha, I'm wishing someone would get a clue and make it so!

[joliefaire]

To my fellow Bookwalkers--please put Spoilers in spoiler tags.

So, we know that Jaime's turned 40, seems to be feeling his age and the loss of his famous sword-hand and all the social status he used to have.  Tywin tells him to go home, Cersei spurns him, Joffrey mocks him.  And his own viewing of The Big White Book seems to show him how little he's really accomplished with his life.

Here's the discernible text, plus screengrabs from the Book, for your reading enjoyment!

1.  "...while defending the honour and property of the Dornish princess, Elia Martell. Handed command to Ser Arthur Dayne due to sustained injuries the same year. Broke three lances against Oswell Whent in the Tourney at Harrenhal and fought with great distinction the melee.
Dispatched by King Aerys to locate the crown Prince Rhaegar Targaryen in the wake of Robert Baratheons rebellion. Died in the Red Mountains of Dorne alongside his sworn brothers Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent. After refusing to bow a knee to the new King, Robert Baratheon, all three were defeated by a small force led by Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell." 

2.  "Ser Arthur Dayne: Second Son (of) Beric Dayne of the House Starfall. Named "Sword of the Morning" and wielder of the great white blade "Dawn", forged from a fallen star.
Won many tourneys and broke twelve lances against Rhaegar Targary(en), Prince of Dragonstone at the Tourney of Storm's End. In the year of the False Spring, at the Great Tourney at Harrenhal, he stood against all but the prince once more.
Beloved by the people, he acted as their voice in the reign of Aerys II, gathering their concerns and bringing them before the King. Brought in laws for the royal forces to repay the smallfolk for their goods and turned the tide of support against the criminal scourge of the Kingswood Brotherhood. Let the Kingsguard to victory..."

3.  "Ser Jaime Lannister:  Squired for Barristan Selmy against the Kingswood Outlaws. Knighted and named to the Kingsguard in his sixteenth year for valor in the field. At the Sack of King's Landing murdered his king, Aerys the second, at the foot of the Iron Throne.

Pardoned by King Robert Baratheon. Thereafter known as Kingslayer."

Edited April 10, 2014 by joliefaire

[Stardancer Supreme]

 

I was super pissed at Shae's actions but perhaps she doesn't realize that T and S aren't having sex?

Shae is Sansa's personal handmaiden. Remember when she checked their bed after the wedding? She would be the first one to know if Tyrion did his duty.  No excuse for her sudden stupidity!

[PatsyStone]

 

I'm wondering whether the necklace Ser Dontos gave Sansa was the same one the Queen of Thorns threw into the bushes, or if it really was a family heirloom.  The necklace obviously will have some significance.

 

I don't think it's the same necklace.  All the necklaces Margery was looking at (that I recall) were showy and chunky and gold (no stones) while the Dontos necklace was a delicate gold chain with blue stones.

I had the same suspicion about the necklace, but upon re-watch, I paid particular attention and izabella you are correct that the necklace thrown into the bushes was gold and very clunky. Far different from the pretty, dainty one Dontos gave to Sansa. I also agree that something is up with that necklace exchange. Why even show it, or bring Dontos back into the fray, if it didn't have some significance. 

[lucindabelle]

I am unusual in that I generally like the Daenerys bits best. I love to look at her and the scenery is often somewhere beautiful, I love the dragons. E one with its head on her lap looking so blissful was well, cute. Any minute now it was going to roll over and ask for a tummy rub. Nd it would never have hissed at mommyifnshe hadn't tried to separate it from food. Very catlike.

I agree about the new Daario, though I thought his stealth flower giving was cute (so, apparently, did Dani).

Aren't Dani and her brother the babies Oberyn thinks were slaughtered or am I confused?

In retrospect it looks idiotic of Tywin to kill the Dorne princess so brutally. Way to fester a feud. I mean 20 years ago is the 90s... Hardly any time at all in the grand scheme of thingsare of course Oberyn would take his revenge.

[cko]

Also -  I find I have zero interest in the Wildings. I don't really care about the new cannibal tribe from Terminus or wherever. Is that just me? I don't know why ... unless maybe it's just one too many storylines. Sometimes I get plot thread fatigue.

Me, too.

I actually thought Daario 1.0 was more effective; he seemed more like the type Dany would go a bit gaga over. Daario 2.0 looks too much like every other guy in this world.

I was debating with myself and my sister whether I'd watch again this season, it's so strenuous and grueling and addictive and painful. Now I realize that  -- while I'm delighting in the interplay between the various pairings, as you've all noted -- I'm mostly watching to see the evil people get theirs. Revenge, yeah! We are all Arya.

[Haleth]

Aren't Dani and her brother the babies Oberyn thinks were slaughtered or am I confused? 

 

You are confused.  Oberyn's sister was married to and had children with Rhaegar, Dany's brother. 

[Sakura12]

The babies that The Mountain murdered were Dany's niece and nephew.

[Earl Is Dead]

I actually thought Daario 1.0 was more effective; he seemed more like the type Dany would go a bit gaga over. Daario 2.0 looks too much like every other guy in this world.

Word.  Although he was a bit too Fabio for me personally, he had a more exotic look to him and lilt to his voice, not to mention chemistry with Emilia Clarke that I thought worked much better.  I understand that actors leave and things sometimes have to change, but why they didn't make an effort to keep some physical resemblance between the two men is beyond me.

[Andromeda]

Dorne sure has some odd sigils: A vulture clutching a baby, a crowned skull, lemons on a purple field (Words? Pucker is coming?), a smiling sun clutching two scoops of raisins

You made me laugh so hard I started coughing (trying to get over a cold here...).

I think of the Reach as more a temperate zone, rather than tropical.  Their symbol is a rose, which is not a tropical plant, plus Olenna mentions the vast quantities of wheat, oats, barley, etc. that they've donated to keep King's Landing fed.

I think of it as Northern California's Central Valley, sort of a temperate agricultural hub. Winterfell is British Columbia/Scotland/Ireland. Dorne is Morocco or Jordan.

I find myself constantly amazed that Tywin's grown children still do his bidding. Can't they tell him to fuck off or something? :)  Sure, he's the only sane and competent one but I'm kind of surprised that Joffrey hasn't had him killed so that he can get his inheritance while being rid of his grandfather's lack of deference.

Tywin runs the army, which is loyal to him. If his own son had him killed, I believe there'd be uprisings.

I am unusual in that I generally like the Daenerys bits best. I love to look at her and the scenery is often somewhere beautiful, I love the dragons. E one with its head on her lap looking so blissful was well, cute. Any minute now it was going to roll over and ask for a tummy rub. Nd it would never have hissed at mommyifnshe hadn't tried to separate it from food. Very catlike.

I thought of a big puppy dog, wanting its pets, but when it gets its teeth around a bone, it will NOT be distracted and will growl even at its owner. That was a wonderful scene. I am a huge Dany fan, so you're not alone.

This is my sigil:

Edited April 10, 2014 by Andromeda

[Constantinople]

I think we just saw the origin of the phrase "Winner winner chicken dinner"

[annsterg]

Man...based on the size of the dragon skulls Arya saw down in the lower reaches of the Red Keep in Season 1...Dany's dragons still have quite a lot of growing to do. I wonder how big they have to be to support a human rider.

[Wilowy]

I would imagine that Dany isn't that much heavier than a goat, and that judging by their wingspan and talons they'd certainly be able to carry off a regular-sized human by now, though maybe not carry one on their back just yet. 

Dany needs to get herself a good saddle made. It won't be long now.

[atomationage]

I didn't watch until last night, because I wasn't sure I wanted to watch after last season.  In this episode I thought it was the Joffrey and Arya show.   I thought the scene between Joffrey and Jamie was the best.  Joffrey does know that Jamie is his biological father, doesn't he?  He said something to his mom about it before.  I think he just wanted everyone to shut up about it, because the Baratheons and Starks knew that he wasn't a Bio Baratheon. 

Arya killed three men to the Hound's two, although he softened them up for her. 

Parts I didn't like were Cersy, Dany, Shay.  I didn't like that actor on Nashville, so I'm not pleased to see him here.

[supposebly]

I haven't watched the show since the Red Wedding season but it felt right to start catching up this Christmas. When Tyrion talked about Rob to Sansa, my heart broke again.

 

Arya breaks my heart in tiny little pieces. The way she stuck Needle in and out so very slowly and eliberatly. I'm not sure I can applaud her although it did feel good when he realized with his last breath who she was. And I barely remembered him.

 

Cersei irks me. Spoiled and entitled woman. This degree of narcissism is quite something. I never know whether she loves Joffrey really or just an an extension of Jamie and herself, and of course as a means to an end. I don't see her bestowing that much effort on her other children.

I guess Joffrey must get some of his "qualities" from his parents.

It's interesting how she and Jamie don't seem to click anymore. I guess it was about time for at least one of them to grow up. Even at the cost of a hand.

 

Does Indira Varma ever age? I was really happy to see her show up as Ellaria. She and Oberyn make quite a pair.

 

Jon seems quite resilient. But I guess it's true. Igrette missed vital organs on purpose. I guess he knows some things now. Loved how he didn't take any crap at that trial.

 

Does it make me a bad person liking Oberyn? He certainly can hold a grudge. But then, that is part of why this show even exists. Old grudges and new grudges piled onto old grudges. Suppressed grudges until something-can-be-done-about-them grudges. Except Sansa. I wonder if she will ever be in a position to do something about hers.

[The Companion]

 Very late to the party (we have watched three seasons in two weeks, so making up for it with gusto). I wondered if Cersei would reject her brother. She certainly didn't rush to greet him when he came home. I wonder if part of it is having it known, or if she is blaming their relationship for creating Joffrey. That might be enough to cool her off. She said something like that before. Then again, we have seen that she is a self absorbed narcissist, so maybe I am reading too much into it. 

I love Daenerys and the stark contrast between her and Joffrey. Poor woman went through hell to get where she is, but she is looking formidable now.

I am hard pressed to say which of the poor Stark sisters has had a worse time of it. Arguably, Sensa had a little more to do with her situation than Arya, but she also has to temper her reactions all day every day. On the other hand, Arya is clearly struggling to find a place. She has been on the run forever and people keep trying to sell her to her family.