S01.E13: The Vows

[CofCinci]

Sol....  I'm interested to see what will happen.

 

Is there a second season?

[Julia]

I hope so. I thought it was a little too neat, and you know it ended just short of a huge explosion of messy.

[morakot]

This show revived some memories of being dumped for things I couldn't change: race, nationality, culture; and then having to be delighted that my ex found the perfect person right after me and wanted me to be friends with her and happy for him. Good times!

 

I liked Sol and his conflicts but I found myself saying Fuck you to Robert at least once an episode.

[Julia]

Did this last episode not change that for you some, though? I disliked Robert through most of this, but in this last one he seemed to be stepping up to being the man he wanted to be for whatever time he has left. With Sol, I remembered for the first time that he was a successful divorce lawyer with a long history of cheating.

Not that I think he should have shrugged off the news of Robert's ongoing past infidelities given their history, because the heart doesn't work like that. But if there was ever a time for Sol to step up and be the evolved person he's been demanding everyone else act like, that was it. And somehow instead he ended up in their marital bed with his ex the day before his wedding, but it wasn't his fault, it just happened.

Robert may have deserved that (I'm not as nice as Grace and Frankie are). Frankie didn't.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Julia

[morakot]

Sol's been effectively married to both Robert and Frankie for 20 years. Robert's the one insisting on a black and white divide and that Sol be all in all to him, husband, best friend, and companion, forsaking all others. Sol has hurt Frankie trying to give that to Robert because that's what Robert wants. That's why the casual sexual affair on Robert's part was a betrayal to Sol. Sol's sleeping with his wife of 40 years, best friend, the mother of his children and the woman he still loves is wrong only in terms of the black and white divide.

 

 

[Julia]

Robert's the one insisting on a black and white divide and that Sol be all in all to him, husband, best friend, and companion, forsaking all others. Sol has hurt Frankie trying to give that to Robert because that's what Robert wants... Sol's sleeping with his wife of 40 years, best friend, the mother of his children and the woman he still loves is wrong only in terms of the black and white divide.

Except that as far as Frankie and Grace were concerned, the black and white divide always existed. Sol broke that faith with his wife of forty years, best friend, the mother of his children and the woman he still loves for twenty years. I don't see any way of looking at it where Sol didn't at the very least choose to let Robert make his choices for him, which is not what Frankie agreed to.

But even if we wave past that part, I think it was selfish and cruel of him to sleep with Frankie that one more time the day before his wedding. Even if Robert arguably asked for it, Frankie deserved better than to have to start healing all over again because Sol maybe feels bad about taking the path of least resistance. JMO, of course.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Julia

[backhometome]

I hated the turn this show took with Sol. 

[Maysie]

My opinions are probably in the minority, but a couple of things:

 

Sol was just not my cup of tea. Neither of the guys were, honestly, but Sol would make me fucking insane if I had to live with him. I tend to gravitate towards straightforward people, and lean away from the ooey gooey squishy people, which is what Sol is to me. Frankie most definitely isn't, despite her earth mother vibe (so it's not the hippie thing that annoys me about Sol). I saw the sleeping with the ex thing coming a mile away between Frankie and Sol (if they really wanted to surprise me Grace and Robert would have hit the sack, but it wouldn't have worked because we know their relationship wasn't as deep as Frankie and Sol's). So Frankie and Sol sleeping together wasn't much of a surprise. I developed the feeling about halfway in that Sol was a bit ambivalent about what he was doing and figure if there was a way to clone himself or split himself in half he'd do it because he loves both of these people deeply - I absolutely believe that about his character.

 

I also believe Robert loves Sol deeply, certainly more than he did Grace. His cheating with the caterer umpty ump years ago was a one-off and though it's not right, I can see it. He and Sol were broken up and Robert was probably trying to figure out if he was gay or if it was about Sol more than just any man.

 

And though it may wreck Robert and Sol (and I don't think it will), I feel like sleeping with Frankie may be the best thing that could have happened to her because she had the realization that it's good and truly over with Sol and she doesn't feel the same way about him; she can move forward now. Grace and Robert didn't need that revelation but Sol and Frankie did.

 

So it seems to me that out of the four, Grace is the one that's kind of the odd man out. Both Robert and Frankie were deeply in love with Sol and Sol reciprocates the feeling. But it doesn't seem Grace feels that way about anyone, nor they her. So I'm wondering if there's a second season if we'll see it start to go there.

[JBC344]

My opinions are probably in the minority, but a couple of things:

 

Sol was just not my cup of tea. Neither of the guys were, honestly, but Sol would make me fucking insane if I had to live with him. I tend to gravitate towards straightforward people, and lean away from the ooey gooey squishy people, which is what Sol is to me. Frankie most definitely isn't, despite her earth mother vibe (so it's not the hippie thing that annoys me about Sol). I saw the sleeping with the ex thing coming a mile away between Frankie and Sol (if they really wanted to surprise me Grace and Robert would have hit the sack, but it wouldn't have worked because we know their relationship wasn't as deep as Frankie and Sol's). So Frankie and Sol sleeping together wasn't much of a surprise. I developed the feeling about halfway in that Sol was a bit ambivalent about what he was doing and figure if there was a way to clone himself or split himself in half he'd do it because he loves both of these people deeply - I absolutely believe that about his character.

 

I also believe Robert loves Sol deeply, certainly more than he did Grace. His cheating with the caterer umpty ump years ago was a one-off and though it's not right, I can see it. He and Sol were broken up and Robert was probably trying to figure out if he was gay or if it was about Sol more than just any man.

 

And though it may wreck Robert and Sol (and I don't think it will), I feel like sleeping with Frankie may be the best thing that could have happened to her because she had the realization that it's good and truly over with Sol and she doesn't feel the same way about him; she can move forward now. Grace and Robert didn't need that revelation but Sol and Frankie did.

 

So it seems to me that out of the four, Grace is the one that's kind of the odd man out. Both Robert and Frankie were deeply in love with Sol and Sol reciprocates the feeling. But it doesn't seem Grace feels that way about anyone, nor they her. So I'm wondering if there's a second season if we'll see it start to go there.

Really great points.  I wouldn't exactly say that Grace is the odd man out.  I think in their particular foursome, in terms of deep connections that may be true.  But I think the rest of the season showed us that although Grace may be a little uptight that she really does have a lot to offer and even though she is 70 there are a lot of guys out there (online dates, ex-con, Guy) who do find her interesting, vibrant, and desirable. We see that there was no passion lost between Grace and Robert's marriage but there was a deep respect and partnership.  I actually think that Grace is the one who by the end of this season has really learned what she wants out of her life.  Robert and Sol are still trying to figure that out, notwithstanding this episode, and Frankie wasn't able to really let Sol go until the end of this episode.

 

Kudos to Lily Tomlin in the family prayer scene at the house.  Her face sold the loss of a 40 year relationship.  That whole scene was just amazing great job by Lily, Sam, Ethan, and Baron.

 

The only thing I was confused about is the living arrangements now.  We know that all parties signed the divorce settlements but we weren't told what exactly they were.  We know that Grace "wanted" the beach house but that it wasn't a guarantee.  We know that Frankie and Sol's house is being sold.  So did Grace get the beach house and is just letting Frankie stay with her?  Did Frankie and Sol just split the sale of their house. 

 

At first I thought that they were just going to call it even with Robert and Sol taking Robert's house.  Grace would get the beach house, and Frankie would keep her and Sol's house.  I'm assuming they did it to keep Grace and Frankie in the same house longer but now that they are actually friends that may not be needed anymore.

[ribboninthesky1]

You know, Sol and Frankie were a lot alike to me - impulsive with no sense of boundaries.  As funny and heartwarming as I found them during the show, in real life, I tend to give such people a wide berth.  Which is probably why I found myself preferring Grace and Robert a lot of the time.  I realize that Grace and Robert weren't as emotionally connected as Frankie and Sol, but I got the feeling that even if they were, Grace still wouldn't be one to navel-gaze and wallow.  I respect that in her.  Getting back out there and living and trying to figure things out is exactly what led her to where she ends up at the end of the season.  Not that Frankie wasn't an influence on her, but I think she would have figured it out even if Frankie wasn't there.   

 

I know Frankie was entitled to her feelings, and the time to work through them at her own pace.  But yeah, she annoyed me at times, especially with the hypocrisy of pushing Grace to do things yet remaining stagnant in her own life.  Until she slept with Sol, at least.  And look, I get that she was emotionally vulnerable because Sol was her husband for more than half her life, but Sol didn't force himself on her.  She slept with him because she wanted to. I don't blame her for that, but I wasn't feeling the "Sol took advantage of Frankie" vibe that was going on in the episode. It was two people who had a deep and loving, albeit deceptive by Sol for half of it, marriage for a very long time. They were not only married, but friends who enjoyed each other's company.  So as ill-advised as it was, I totally understood what happened and why it happened, especially given the heightened event and emotions that precipitated it.  

 

That said, I hope Robert is understanding of Sol, assuming he comes clean.  Robert, out of the four of them, seemed to be the one least concerned about the collateral damage and the complexity of these relationships.  He was basically, "I love Sol, I'm tired of hiding, and I'm ready to move forward" because Sol is his intimate center.  I never saw much from him, beyond a bit of jealousy and irritation, that indicated any real sense of awareness about Sol's emotional conflict, Frankie's heartbreak, or Grace's reeling.  Even after the flashbacks in The Elevator.  It's not even I think he deserved to be cheated on - he just needs a wake-up up call that life is a lot more grey that he believes.  

 

This applies to Sol also - laying a guilt trip on Robert because he had sex with someone else over a decade ago while he continued to enjoy an emotionally and sexually intimate relationship with his own wife is also hypocritical. They both need to grow up in that regard, and realize that things aren't roses because they decided to come clean and marry each other.  Hopefully, Sol's infidelity will aid in said maturity.     

 

In other news, I learned the etymology of schmuck and mensch, which I appreciated. 

[Clanstarling]

It was two people who had a deep and loving, albeit deceptive by Sol for half of it, marriage for a very long time. They were not only married, but friends who enjoyed each other's company.  So as ill-advised as it was, I totally understood what happened and why it happened, especially given the heightened event and emotions that precipitated it.  

That's the way I saw it too. I saw two people with a lifetime of history and love, saying goodbye. Not a great thing to do, but understandable to anyone who has had a similar moment.

[CofCinci]

You can say goodbye without use of your penis.

[Julia]

IUntil she slept with Sol, at least.  And look, I get that she was emotionally vulnerable because Sol was her husband for more than half her life, but Sol didn't force himself on her.  She slept with him because she wanted to. I don't blame her for that, but I wasn't feeling the "Sol took advantage of Frankie" vibe that was going on in the episode. It was two people who had a deep and loving, albeit deceptive by Sol for half of it, marriage for a very long time. They were not only married, but friends who enjoyed each other's company.  So as ill-advised as it was, I totally understood what happened and why it happened, especially given the heightened event and emotions that precipitated it.

 

I was absolutely feeling it, unfortunately. Sol knows Frankie still loves him, he knows he's hurt her terribly, he knows it wasn't her choice for their marriage to end, and he knows he's the one who initiated the divorces by telling Robert he wanted them to be together. Whatever his feelings of loss are, he was the one who started the ball rolling to end that marriage. If his decency had outweighed his unwillingness to face the repercussions of his own choices he would have given Frankie the distance she needed to separate from him emotionally and move on with her life.

 

Offering her that kind of intimacy in a moment when she was devastated by what he'd done was an act of cruelty, as far as I'm concerned, and he should have kept it in his pants. 

Edited May 20, 2015 by Julia

[ribboninthesky1]

I'm not disputing Sol's culpability.  Nevertheless, Frankie and Sol having sex was a mutual decision.  I don't think Frankie being the emotionally betrayed spouse makes her less responsible for her decisions and actions. Understandable, yes, but no less responsible.  

[Julia]

I'm not disputing Sol's culpability.  Nevertheless, Frankie and Sol having sex was a mutual decision.  I don't think Frankie being the emotionally betrayed spouse makes her less responsible for her decisions and actions. Understandable, yes, but no less responsible.  

 

I'm not saying that their encounter wasn't consensual. I'm just saying that going to the wife he betrayed and whose life he made a lie for consensual sex was a decision he made all by himself, after she told him that his wedding would be too painful for her to attend because she wasn't over the end of their marriage. JMO, I think that's where someone who sincerely regretted the pain he'd caused more than the pain he felt would have kept his pants zipped on the day before his wedding and walked away.

[ribboninthesky1]

Based on what happened in the episode, Sol didn't go to Frankie.  He broke down while they and their sons were in their family home, and went off by himself. Frankie could have left the house with the boys at that point and give him the space to grieve, cry, whatever alone (not saying she should have, but it was her decision).  She went to console him, he kissed her, and she reciprocated.  And ultimately, they slept together.   

 

Grace lecturing Sol felt disingenuous to me, as it's not like Sol purposely approached Frankie alone for one last fling before he's off to get married again. He shouldn't have kissed her in the first place, AND Frankie should have stopped him and left.  But neither made the right decision, and my emphasis in it being consensual was 1) in opposition to the tone of the episode which seemed to place the sex primarily on Sol's shoulders, and 2) said tone detracted, IMO, from part of the series premise of the blurred lines and messiness of these relationships. The show had done a good job in balancing the culpability of Sol and Robert, the collateral damage of their decisions, and Grace and Frankie's agency for their own lives.  I felt that was inexplicably derailed, I suppose for the emotional cliffhanger. 

Edited May 20, 2015 by ribboninthesky1

[possibilities]

This is what happens when people make a cult out of monogamy, and blow every little exchange of intimacy out of proportion. I don't think it was such a terrible wrong for Robert to have an encounter with another lover years ago or for Sol and Frankie to have their last hurrah, nor did I think the kisses with Grace and "the convict" were anything to worry about. But all the pearl clutching and acting like it's the end of the world if anyone has even so much as a moment of connection with anyone other than their supposed one and only love-- it's unreal and unfair and makes this razor's edge out of life and creates a lot of manufactured pain and drama where none was really needed. I know it's how a lot of people act, and it's not just a made for TV contrivance, but it seems so crazy to me. If people would relax and not be so insecure and dire about these things, there would not be so much suffering. Life is complex and a recognition and acceptance of this could enrich and deepen, not destroy and devastate, if folks didn't freak out about every glimmer of non-exclusivity. I'm not saying to be wantonly reckless, but it doesn't have to be so life and death/all or nothing, or in my view shouldn't have to be all the time.

 

I understood why Grace thought Sol was just fucking around and playing with Frankie, but I was pleased that Frankie actually took it more in perspective. And I understood Sol's ambivalence and confusion and nostalgia and regrets. We could hope that Robert would be able to be philosophical about it, as well, given his own 40 years of waffling and confusion. But I guess we won't know until/unless there are more episodes.

Edited May 20, 2015 by possibilities

[stopeslite]

 

But all the pearl clutching and acting like it's the end of the world if anyone has even so much as a moment of connection with anyone other than their supposed one and only love-- it's unreal and unfair and makes this razor's edge out of life and creates a lot of manufactured pain and drama where none was really needed.

YES, thank you! I can understand Sol being upset about Robert's fling with Jeff - he probably thought they were a monogamous couple, while Robert was thinking "hey, exploration time!". It was never clear if it was early on in their relationship. But Sol having sex one last time with Frankie? That's the most understandable thing in the world. They've been together for 40 years, they're in their family home, reliving old memories, one last time to be together... I almost can't imagine how that wouldn't have happened, especially since they were sitting there on their bed together (and seriously, what was with that? The whole house was empty except for a bed that still had a bedspread and sheets and pillows on it??)  And besides, Sol has been sleeping with both of them for twenty years now. It's not like a person can just turn off that switch right away, from loving and being intimate with both of them to only with one. That's one thing I find so intriguing about this show - Robert seems to be mostly happy to get out of a mostly loveless relationship (although I'm glad they've shown it as more complex than that), but for Sol, this really is tearing him right down the middle. 

 

And with Grace and Guy and the kissing... come on. They'd been dating maybe a month? So she kisses another guy (heh) once. Big deal. I bet if Guy had seen Byron's piercing eyes and captivating accent and raw charisma, he'd have wanted to kiss him too.

[Julia]

Based on what happened in the episode, Sol didn't go to Frankie.  He broke down while they and their sons were in their family home, and went off by himself. Frankie could have left the house with the boys at that point and give him the space to grieve, cry, whatever alone (not saying she should have, but it was her decision).  She went to console him, he kissed her, and she reciprocated.  And ultimately, they slept together.   

 

Grace lecturing Sol felt disingenuous to me, as it's not like Sol purposely approached Frankie alone for one last fling before he's off to get married again. He shouldn't have kissed her in the first place, AND Frankie should have stopped him and left.  But neither made the right decision, and my emphasis in it being consensual was 1) in opposition to the tone of the episode which seemed to place the sex primarily on Sol's shoulders, and 2) said tone detracted, IMO, from part of the series premise of the blurred lines and messiness of these relationships. The show had done a good job in balancing the culpability of Sol and Robert, the collateral damage of their decisions, and Grace and Frankie's agency for their own lives.  I felt that was inexplicably derailed, I suppose for the emotional cliffhanger.

I hear you, but JMO Sol shouldn't have been there to begin with. It clearly tore Frankie up to tell him she couldn't stand to stand with him on his wedding day. Going back to share the last family time in the family home was in questionable taste to begin with, but putting Frankie in the position of having to comfort him over how bad he feels about what he did to their family was disgusting.

Not because I give a shit if Sol is unfaithful to Robert, because it looks as if that is finally going to make Sol own his shit. If he'd had it off with the pool boy I'd be with all the attaboys. And not because I fetishize monogamy, because if that's not what partners have promised each other, as far as I'm concerned they should be happy bonobos with my blessing (which they neither need nor want). But because marriage is all about compromise and accommodations and patience, and Frankie found out (over dinner out, FFS) that she was shaping her life to fit someone who didn't consider her his partner.

I'd be more likely to seek Sol out at a party than I would Robert. In this situation, though, I think Robert admitting that he has what he wants and he doesn't care who he hurt is less destructive than Sol doing additional damage to Frankie (and, god help them, all of their collective kids) by privileging his need for everyone to love him over, well, the additional damage.

[ribboninthesky1]

I see your point about Sol vs Robert, though I thought the show did a good job with the implicit and explicit "both approaches are damaging" tone. We'll likely continue to disagree about Sol and Frankie and boundaries.  For me, Frankie's responsibility is to speak up and let Sol know her boundaries, as she did with declining the wedding invitation. If she didn't want to pack up the house with him, she should have said so. 

 

I understood why Grace thought Sol was just fucking around and playing with Frankie, but I was pleased that Frankie actually took it more in perspective. And I understood Sol's ambivalence and confusion and nostalgia and regrets. We could hope that Robert would be able to be philosophical about it, as well, given his own 40 years of waffling and confusion. But I guess we won't know until/unless there are more episodes.

 

Grace, more than any of the four, seemed to learn how grey life and relationships can be.  So I found her reaming of Sol strange. But to each their own.  That said, I thought Frankie's post-coital perspective was the most maturity she'd shown the entire season.     

 

I have no problems with monogamy, and the reasonable expectation thereof, but I know that relationships sometimes have blurred lines. And the show had spent the last 12 episodes establishing how emotionally co-dependent Frankie and Sol were.  So it didn't surprise or bother me that they had sex again. I believe Robert told Sol that the Michael Gross hookup was during one of the "we're on a break" periods, so he wasn't sexing it up with other people when he and Sol were "on." Thus, Sol going on about sex that occurred once over a decade ago was as ridiculous as Grace lecturing Sol about sleeping with the woman who, up to six months prior, was his wife of 40 years.  It's not that I think such actions should be approved or swept under the rug, it's the subtext that bugs.   

[JBC344]

For me it is not so much about "blame" and possibly taking advantage of one another but it is about the unevenness of the situation regarding Frankie and Sol.  When Frankie and Sol get up from having sex, they are not on a level playing field.  Sol is essentially saying "goodbye/closure" to the life he had with Frankie and putting a period after it. But he is ultimately going home to Robert which is where his future is.  Frankie's sleeping with Sol means something entirely different.  To her it is a glimmer of hope and keeping their bond "alive".  Her sleeping with Sol isn't a sign of closure.  I think in the end she figured it out but that was the aftermath/hindsight.  This is the point that I think Grace was trying to make with Sol. 

 

For example, if after having sex Sol turned to Frankie and said, this is all a mistake I don't want to stay with Robert I want to continue my life with you.  Frankie would of said "Yes, let's do it."  Now if after sex Frankie turned to Sol and said this is a sign we should stay married and get back together, Sol's answer wouldn't of been "Yes, let's do this".  Now it doesn't mean that either one of them has wronged the other, but Frankie is clearly in a much worse place emotionally than Sol was/is.

[ribboninthesky1]

I had a different take on it - I didn't think Sol took it as "goodbye" sex.  I perceived it as "caught up in the moment and nostalgia" sex for Frankie and Sol.  In the end, Frankie took it as closure because it didn't feel right, but I don't believe Sol perceived it as closure.  If anything, Sol complicated matters for himself because he has to decide whether to come clean with Robert about it, and then deal with the consequences of said decision. There's an assumption that Sol and Robert will stay together, but we won't know that for certain until next season. 

 

I'm also not convinced Frankie would have agreed with reconciliation if Sol wanted it.  She looked equally uncomfortable in the aftermath.  I don't think she had her epiphany on the beach, I suspect she knew right away that they couldn't go back.  Frankie is interesting to me because despite the earth mother, new age-y, progressive persona she projected, she was the most resistant to change.  And not just with the marriage dissolution - another example is her reaction to the club that she went to with Grace.  It made me think that, even if Sol wanted a divorce yet hadn't committed adultery for two decades, she would have struggled. 

[bybrandy]

The difference is Robert doesn't care one iota about the guy he had the affair with.  Sol legitimately loves Frankie.  Sol will always love Frankie.   I've always thought Robert's jealousy on that front was misplaced because clearly Frankie wasn't enough for Sol.  But now Robert needs to worry that neither of them are.   It is a much bigger betrayal.

 

Sol doesn't have those same worries because Robert doesn't love Grace.   

I do think this is closure for Sol where he has to decide to fully 100% commit.  And I imagine the guys will work their way back to one another.  But I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it didn't take a little work... and I think that's good because we came into this series seeing an easy committed relationship between these two.  They had little problems but they were small things.   

Now they have a big thing and  so we will get to see what bonds them.

In the meantime I think some bonding between Frankie and Robert over Sol being an idiot?  Well, I think that would be lovely.

[Crs97]

Having finished the season, I find myself having the most sympathy for Grace.  She was the only one of the foursome who didn't have a loving relationship for the past 40 years.  Robert's mentor mentioning that he noticed Robert had a beautiful wife that he didn't pay any attention to;  the flashback that Grace thinks that she is responsible for their bad marriage because she works too hard; all of them continuing to take little swipes at her (Sol calling Robert "Grace" because he was obsessing over the wedding, Frankie and Sol having a chuckle over Frankie selecting a wind chime she knew Grace would hate) - it's a wonder Grace is as nice as she is.

[JBC344]

Having finished the season, I find myself having the most sympathy for Grace.  She was the only one of the foursome who didn't have a loving relationship for the past 40 years.  Robert's mentor mentioning that he noticed Robert had a beautiful wife that he didn't pay any attention to;  the flashback that Grace thinks that she is responsible for their bad marriage because she works too hard; all of them continuing to take little swipes at her (Sol calling Robert "Grace" because he was obsessing over the wedding, Frankie and Sol having a chuckle over Frankie selecting a wind chime she knew Grace would hate) - it's a wonder Grace is as nice as she is.

I agree.  I really like all four main characters, but the surprise for me has been that Grace is my favorite.  Out of the main four she really has grown the most during the course of the season.  I also appreciate that she wasn't the stereotypical shrew wife.  She had a successful career that she worked hard at, and even though she and Robert didn't have a passionate marriage it was one that was a real partnership, at least from Grace's end.  I also appreciated them showing Grace loss outside of just Robert.  Her realization that she was also going to be losing her extended family and close relationship to Robert's sister was a punch in the gut. 

 

I think that a lot of people would like to think that are loose/fun like Frankie, but in reality are much more like a "Grace".

[cali1981]

First, kudos to Netflix for getting these four amazing actors to sign on this show.  They have been great and I still marvel at Jane Fonda who still looks better than many women far younger than her.  She is some kind of freak of nature.  I hope that Netflix (and the cast) goes for a second season.  I found that after the first two episodes, the show got progressively funnier and more interesting.  The characters and the situations were very well fleshed out by the writers and the actors and there was plenty left to explore when the season closed out.

[gesundheit]

I also believe Robert loves Sol deeply, certainly more than he did Grace. His cheating with the caterer umpty ump years ago was a one-off and though it's not right, I can see it. He and Sol were broken up and Robert was probably trying to figure out if he was gay or if it was about Sol more than just any man.

I got irrationally angry at Sol for feeling cheated on by that, while ignoring the fact that it meant Robert was further cheating on his actual wife.

 

I really liked the wrench thrown into the finale, and it gave me great hope that a second season is probable. Exes sleep together all the time, but I definitely think the heartbreaker bears more responsibility than the heartbreakee in such "slips." (Not all breakups/divorces have such clean roles in the split, but this one obviously did.) But I can certainly understand how someone who was in an emotional and sexual relationship with both Frankie and Robert for TWO DECADES wouldn't be able to adjust to the new terms of "just one" overnight. Doesn't make it okay (and I'm glad Grace let him have it, good friend!), but it makes sense.

[Setra]

I understood why Grace thought Sol was just fucking around and playing with Frankie, but I was pleased that Frankie actually took it more in perspective. And I understood Sol's ambivalence and confusion and nostalgia and regrets. We could hope that Robert would be able to be philosophical about it, as well, given his own 40 years of waffling and confusion. But I guess we won't know until/unless there are more episodes.

On May 26, 2015, during an FYC panel at the Pacific Design Center that was attended by series executive producers Marta Kauffman and Howard J. Morris and series stars Jane Fonda, Lily Tomlin and Martin Sheen, it was officially announced that Grace and Frankie has been renewed for season 2. As Kaufmann put it: “It’s awesome to do a show on Netflix, because after we launched, Miley Cyrus does a tweet about your show, and they call and say, ‘We’d like to do a season two’.” Season 2 will debut in 2016.

 

The renewal has also been confirmed via the show's official Twitter account.

GraceandFrankie ‏@GraceandFrankie 10h10 hours ago

Your next vision quest is about to begin. Season 2 is on its way. #GraceandFrankie pic.twitter.com/0QMwfcRb94

Details

Edited May 27, 2015 by Seestra1

[Julia]

That's wonderful. That was the rare cliffhanger I'd really like to see the fallout from.

[ribboninthesky1]

As Kaufmann put it: “It’s awesome to do a show on Netflix, because after we launched, Miley Cyrus does a tweet about your show, and they call and say, ‘We’d like to do a season two’.” Season 2 will debut in 2016.

 

This quote is hilarious!

[OnceSane]

I'm thrilled to hear the show has been renewed, though I pretty much expected it to be.

On topic, I don't think Grace was.putting all the responsibility on Sol for the Sol/Frankie sex (as seen when she asked Frankie what she was thinking when they were on the beach); Grace was.acting like a friend to Frankie when she confronted Sol. And maybe even as a friend to Robert. Grace knows Frankie is vulnerable now and, though it doesn't make Frankie less responsible, she knows that Sol shouldn't have let it happen. I love this show because I feel like all sides are being represented rather evenly (I'd like more Robert POV next season) despite the show being more about the two women.

[Cherpumple]

I totally get Sol and Frankie sleeping together one last time, and am glad that it seemed to help Frankie close the door on their relationship by realising that they no longer fit together. It wasn't the smartest thing to do, and I'm sure Robert won't take the news well, but I don't see it as particularly evil or cruel. Of course, I would probably feel differently if it were me, but then again, I don't think I could retain a close friendship with my ex-husband so soon after learning that he had been cheating on me for 20 years, no matter how close we were, so it's difficult for me to put myself in their shoes.

 

Other than that, I'm glad Grace broke up with Guy. He was a good rebound relationship, and I wouldn't object to seeing him come back at some point (they had been friends for decades after all), but I think it would have been a mistake for her to jump into another serious relationship so soon. Her slip of the tongue when she mentioned another man during her vlog seems to foreshadow that she may re-examine that relationship next season, but who knows. Girls needs some fun, and I hope both she and Frankie get out into the dating world more next season.

 

I don't see a general thread for this show, so I guess I'll put my overall comments here.

 

I found this show by accident and ended up liking it more and more with each episode. The actors are great, and I think the writing does a good job of showing the different sides of these complex relationship issues, even if only superficially for the moment, as they let the story unfold. The adultery/betrayal, the reality of moving on from a long marriage, the difficulties of moving a clandestine affair into a "real" relationship, etc. And I like little snippets like pointing out that the element of homosexuality matters; for instance, the kids saying that they would not be expected to have a nice polite family dinner with their dad and his female mistress of twenty years, Grace (I think) pointing out that it's difficult for her to show her anger/betrayal without seeming like a homophobe, and Sol and Robert's friends saying that they no longer need to live by society's heteronormative rules. These were uncomfortable things to point out at times, but they help to add another layer of emotional complexity.  

 

A few little things:

 

- I want to live at that beach house. It looks awesome and peaceful, and I'm super envious every time I see it.

- I can't get over how skinny Jane Fonda is. She mainly looks great, but every once in a while I gasp a little at how tiny she is. She looks about half the size she was in her workout videos from the 80s, and I hope she's ok.

- I think they made good use of the children- enough screen time to get an idea of their personalities and relationships with their parents, but not too much to detract from the four leads. At first I was worried that the show would get bogged down in the Coyote/Mallory backstory, and I was glad that it didn't.

- Byron the convict is insanely hot. More of him please!

- The music, especially over the closing credits, has been great. I've downloaded several of the songs already, and really enjoy them.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Cherpumple

[amaranta]

- I want to live at that beach house. It looks awesome and peaceful, and I'm super envious every time I see it.

 

Me too!  Every time they show that high exterior shot I think I audibly sigh.  Add to that it's in La Jolla, which is so lovely.  Unaffordable for anyone who's not a 1 percenter, but lovely all the same.

[marriedaniac]

"So I slept with him to see what all the fuss was about." 

[JellyFishQueen]

Calling it now, Dolly Parton is Coyote birth mother. We will see her in season 2

[jelaine]

Nah, she's going to be the officiant at the wedding.

No actual knowledge went into the construction of that sentence.

[JBC344]

Calling it now, Dolly Parton is Coyote birth mother. We will see her in season 2

Great prediction.  Jane has said that she would love for Dolly to guest star in the future.  They just needed to come with a great character for her.

[paramitch]

I also believe Robert loves Sol deeply, certainly more than he did Grace. His cheating with the caterer umpty ump years ago was a one-off and though it's not right, I can see it. He and Sol were broken up and Robert was probably trying to figure out if he was gay or if it was about Sol more than just any man.

 

As a forever advocate for Ross (in the Ross versus Rachel "We were on a break!" debate) I don't agree that it was cheating (on Sol, at least). They had broken up. For me, when people break up, all bets are off -- emotions run high. If I break up with a guy, he goes off, gets drunk, and sleeps with someone, I can't blame him for that if I decide to ask him to come back the next day. So I was fine with what Robert did, and actually wished the show had allowed Robert to maybe talk about how he needed to do that simply to explore and define what he was going through -- and that he had no reason to be sorry (except to Grace, the woman he was actually cheating on).

 

So as ill-advised as it was, I totally understood what happened and why it happened, especially given the heightened event and emotions that precipitated it.  

I agree. I even think it was ultimately good for Frankie, as it showed her beyond the shadow of a doubt that it was over. Things weren't the same. 

 

But all the pearl clutching and acting like it's the end of the world if anyone has even so much as a moment of connection with anyone other than their supposed one and only love-- it's unreal and unfair and makes this razor's edge out of life and creates a lot of manufactured pain and drama where none was really needed. I know it's how a lot of people act, and it's not just a made for TV contrivance, but it seems so crazy to me.

I'm pretty monogamous myself, but I do agree with what you're saying here. I also think that things happen that honestly may be better off left unrevealed. If a guy I was married to cheated on me once or twice (versus long-term emotional affairs) and was safe about it? I'd honestly never want to know. There's no point.

 

But Sol having sex one last time with Frankie? That's the most understandable thing in the world. They've been together for 40 years, they're in their family home, reliving old memories, one last time to be together... I almost can't imagine how that wouldn't have happened

 

(snipped for space)

 

And with Grace and Guy and the kissing... come on. They'd been dating maybe a month? So she kisses another guy (heh) once. Big deal. I bet if Guy had seen Byron's piercing eyes and captivating accent and raw charisma, he'd have wanted to kiss him too.

 

This was my perspective too -- I found it sad and very understandable. But now -- if Sol and Frankie are adults and moving on with their lives? The best possible outcome here would be that they never discuss it again, and that Sol not unburden himself to Robert or ever say a word about it. There is no reason in the world for him to tell Robert what he did, and it's not something that will ever happen again. 

 

Do I think Sol will tell Robert? Yes, unfortunately. Because Sol (and Frankie) both seem to think that everyone always needs to know everything, and I just don't agree. Especially in relationships, I'm not a believer in sharing every single thought you have, in each and every moment. If Sol is truly thinking of Robert's well-being (versus his own need to see himself as a Good Guy), he will never say a word, and go on with their lives and their wedding. But I don't think he will. He's gonna say something and they're gonna break up, is my prediction, hopefully temporarily (as they're so sweet together).

 

Meanwhile, I also thought Byron the convict was freaking hot. I adore Craig T. Nelson, and he was very sweet as Guy, but after 40 years in a passionless marriage, I just wanted Grace to get some hot awesome monkey sex with gorgeous Byron, dammit. She definitely would have deserved it.

 

Having finished the season, I find myself having the most sympathy for Grace.  She was the only one of the foursome who didn't have a loving relationship for the past 40 years.  Robert's mentor mentioning that he noticed Robert had a beautiful wife that he didn't pay any attention to;  the flashback that Grace thinks that she is responsible for their bad marriage because she works too hard; all of them continuing to take little swipes at her... 

 

I agree.  I really like all four main characters, but the surprise for me has been that Grace is my favorite.  Out of the main four she really has grown the most during the course of the season.  I also appreciate that she wasn't the stereotypical shrew wife.  She had a successful career that she worked hard at, and even though she and Robert didn't have a passionate marriage it was one that was a real partnership, at least from Grace's end.

 

Agreed with both of these. I was surprised at how much I loved Grace by the end. In the first episode, my heart kind of sank at how rude she was to Frankie. But then as it went on, and we saw her warmth and heart, I really came to care about her. Fonda manages to imbue her with this vulnerability that always softens her even at her bitchiest.

 

- The music, especially over the closing credits, has been great. I've downloaded several of the songs already, and really enjoy them.

I did too -- I thought the music was very gentle and poignant, and creatively chosen throughout the season.

 

And count me in on the incredible real estate lust for that beach house. I want to live there so, so badly. And everything in it was so elegant yet comfortable -- a perfect mishmash of Grace and Frankie's styles. 

[marriedaniac]

Calling it now, Dolly Parton is Coyote birth mother. We will see her in season 2

 

(a large) Part of me wants to see an older lesbian couple... Dolly Parton & Stockard Channing, perhaps!

[Eeksquire]

 

Dolly Parton & Stockard Channing, perhaps!

How on earth can we get this thought to the show runners? That is the BEST IDEA I've ever seen.  Amazing.

[Guest]

In Frankie's shoes I don't think I could have sex with my ex who's been sleeping with a man.  I know she's super liberal and free thinking, and so am I, but I couldn't do it.  My mind would be all over it, ruining everything.  

 

How come it looks like Sol and Frankie's bed is a sofa bed?  Their first scene in bed at the start of the season I thought they must be poor or something.  I guess that was someone's idea of hippy-dippy?  Sofa beds suck, though.  

 

I watch this for the same reason I watched Private Practice-- mainly for the beach house.  And it's in La Jolla?  Swoon.  That wicker chair in front of the back door is gorgeous.  

 

Though I do like some of the humor.  Getting old sucks, you have to laugh at it.  And I'm sadistically enjoying the jokes about Grace not eating anything.  If I can't be Jane Fonda, I'm going to make fun of her.  

[JBC344]

I assumed that they had sex in a guest bedroom or the guest house, not their actual marital bed.

[Eeksquire]

 

How come it looks like Sol and Frankie's bed is a sofa bed?  Their first scene in bed at the start of the season I thought they must be poor or something.  I guess that was someone's idea of hippy-dippy?  Sofa beds suck, though.

In the first episode, they sleep together in the sofa bed after Frankie kicks him out of the bedroom, but then goes to sleep with him because she hadn't slept alone in years.  The bed they sleep together on in the last episode is a real bed in their bedroom, only without sheets, blankets, etc.

 

Do we have any idea how long it will be before this show comes back? This is one of the worst things about watching made-for-streaming shows - if you watch the whole thing in a week or two, it seems like forever until a new season arrives.

[JBC344]

My guess would be May of 2016.  Netflix shows usually run on the anniversary of when they debuted.  Not to sound ageist here but considering the average age of the cast "75".  I would love to see Netflix break the mold with this show and produce the show more rapidly.  I wouldn't mind if they kept shooting and just sparse the seasons out.  Kind of like those "10/90" shows where they just take three years and shoot 100 episodes then the network puts out the seasons when they want.

 

My fear is that something will happen to one of the cast members and change the dynamic of the show.  I sincerely hope not.

[possibilities]

FWIW, I heard Lily Tomlin do an interview recently, and she said they're already shooting-- I think she said they'd finished 4 episodes of Season 2 so far. When they air, I can't say. But it doesn't seem like they're dragging their feet on production.

[Eeksquire]

I feel like they ended on such a ... big moment (I hate to call it a cliffhanger, because I don't think the show so far has been very soap-y), but I really want to know what happens next.  While I don't like all of the characters, I do really like all of the actors and I'm curious to see where they take Season 2.

[Nanrad]

Although Frankie is Sol's best friend and they were together for 40 years, I still think he took advantage her. The sex was consensual, so I'm not saying he raped her, but emotionally speaking, he took advantage. I understand he was having a hard time with the finality of the whole situation, but that was a sacrifice he was willing to make when he decided to come out with Robert in addition to planning to marry him. No one put a gun to his head. As hard as it was for him, he had YEARS to prep and come to terms with that moment. Yes, that moment is much more difficult when it's reality, but at the same time, Frankie is still processing that her husband is gay and marrying a man who's been in her life for 40 years just six months after separating/divorcing. 

 

It's been clear that Frankie is having a harder time coping with the separation than Sol and Sol's been an ass about the whole situation. Monogamy isn't for everyone, but if one person is under the impression that the relationship is monogamous and it turns out that it wasn't, you're gay, and getting married shortly after dropping that bomb, that person needs more than a universe worth of space. I like Sol, but he definitely has been an ass regarding Frankie's feelings and is immediately trying to jump to the friendship stage than letting her process.

 

To top it all off, he isn't considering Robert in this equation either. Sol's relationship is the very reason Robert feels insecure about them--they were already too close after the divorce, and then had a fight about Frankie because Sol doesn't want to set boundaries. So for Sol to sleep with Frankie is a huge betrayal no matter who caught up in the moment he was. Robert has way more justification for getting upset about what Sol did than Sol did about what Robert did while they were broken up. They were not together when Robert slept with Jeff; he may have been trying to figure out if Sol is the exception or if he was truly gay. And Sol has admitted that they've dated and broken up over the years. Furthermore, Sol is the primary reason why the secret stayed secret for 5 additional years. 

 

So, bringing this back to Frankie, Sol isn't coming back to her--he's gay, but cares deeply for her, Frankie is in an emotionally vulnerable place and even though Sol may be there himself, it's not as bad, so he should've nipped that in the bud before it got too far. 

[Bastet]

Gods, I love Grace's anger at Sol in this one.  Her relationship with Frankie has evolved since that conversation in "The Fall", and still has a long way to go, but she is all in for their bond as the two people to whom Robert and Sol did this shitty thing.

I love how frustrated she is that Frankie was starting to progress, and this is going to set her back.  And she sends Sol home, saying he's done enough and she'll take care of Frankie from here; it really sets a stage.

I love when she finds Frankie on the beach and says, "I just got home and found Sol in our living room.  He was looking for you.  So I slept with him to see what all the fuss was about." 

And it's such a lovely moment between the two of them when Frankie explains how it happened, and Grace goes from bewildered to understanding.  It's sweet when she thanks Frankie for help with Guy and says, "I wish you had a you to help you, but you don't. You only have me."

It's a terrific ending to the first season, in real time and in retrospect; they have some setbacks, sure, but they're fundamentally all in as friends from this point on.