S04.E22: Operation Mongoose: Part 1 / S04.E23 Operation Mongoose: Part 2

[scenicbyway]

This just goes back to the writers of this show not knowing when to pay-off a built up scene and instead giving those moments short shrift because they want to save it for their not!shocking, predictable!twist.

 

Having Emma say ILU to Hook when she first sees him when they return from the AU would've been completely perfect pay-off to what Emma just went through, and would've also been an excellent moment of growth for her because in the past she's only said ILU to anyone right before everyone is going to die. It actually made no sense for her to withhold saying it especially in light of what she said while in the AU. The writers should've given Emma that moment of telling Hook ILU when they were reunited, but because these writers are hacks they robbed that scene, of Emma and Hook's reunion, of it's full emotional power.

 

What should've been a scene that had people (who are invested in Emma, Hook, or CS) fist-bumping and yelling "YAS!" in joy, was deflated because they wanted to save that ILU for their shocking!twist. That's hack writing; That's shit writing. When you withhold the logical progression in the development of a character and a relationship for the sake of creating a shocking!twist then you've lost the focus of what really matters in telling a story; because it's no longer about the characters and instead it's about you indulging in a need to feel smug by toying with the audience.

 

I think it's just clear evidence that A&E are only interested in gimmicks rather than what they really should be focused on - staying true to the characters and telling the character's story.

Interestingly enough, Emma's able to run to the loft, look around for Hook on the floor (how did she know he'd be in that spot) while Hook was only able to go upstairs to look for Henry in the same amount of time.  I do like that Emma went straight to look for Hook when they returned and Hook went straight to look for Henry.  I too think the ILY should've happened in the loft, it would've taken nothing away from the dagger scene and we might've gotten a response from Hook (who we already know is in love with Emma).  I get that she holds the power in the relationship, but it was silly to make them wait.  Also, it's unlikely that we are going to see any current kisses between them until the big showdown, so why not have let them kiss at least once the finale.  There was a lot of forehead touching but no kisses.

[legaleagle53]

Interestingly enough, Emma's able to run to the loft, look around for Hook on the floor (how did she know he'd be in that spot) while Hook was only able to go upstairs to look for Henry in the same amount of time.  I do like that Emma went straight to look for Hook when they returned and Hook went straight to look for Henry.  I too think the ILY should've happened in the loft, it would've taken nothing away from the dagger scene and we might've gotten a response from Hook (who we already know is in love with Emma).  I get that she holds the power in the relationship, but it was silly to make them wait.  Also, it's unlikely that we are going to see any current kisses between them until the big showdown, so why not have let them kiss at least once the finale.  There was a lot of forehead touching but no kisses.

 

Yes, Hook's expression when he asked Emma what she wanted to say to him was clearly one of "As if I didn't hope!"

[Serena]

I just have to say that I loved the look on Emma's face when she runs into AU!Hook for the first time. She looked like an angel. Way to knock it out of the park, JMo!

I loved how her hands stayed firmly on his chest for that whole "introduction". I've decided it's a parallel to Emma's assets being on display during their other AU "introduction" in 321.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Serena

[Shanna Marie]

how did she know he'd be in that spot

I think she was just looking around on the floor in general, but that spot caught her eye because of the stuff on the floor that suggested someone had been there and wasn't there now. And we were supposed to know that spot was meaningful because that's where Hook was, and he wasn't there now, so we'd get worried that he was gone.

 

The more I think about the concept for this episode, the more I think that these writers didn't have the chops to pull it off and instead did their usual superficial hack job. They really needed to have developed the concept for Isaac's novel better. Even if they only showed it in bits and pieces, they should have at least had the sense of the outline of the novel so that the world felt a little more complete. This was supposedly the last chapter, so a lot should have been going on regarding the major players in the novel, even if it was just in the background of our main plot. If the big finale happy ending was the wedding of Robin and Zelena, what led up to that? Did they have a dramatic courtship full of ups and downs, leading to their happy ending in a marriage? And if that's the happy ending, wouldn't that mean Robin was the hero of this story? But wasn't Rumple the hero? What would he have been doing in the final chapter if he hadn't been sent on a different mission by Isaac? And did it really have to be a True Love's Kiss or other kind of ending disrupting the wedding to undo the world when they'd already done a lot of other things that were changing the ending? This is the final chapter, so where was the showdown between the villain and the hero?

 

They actually could have done a Redshirts kind of thing, with Henry managing to save the day by rounding up the "redshirts" of the story who were just human scenery and not affecting the plot while the main characters were stuck playing out their roles. It would have been fun to see glimpses of the "main" plot playing out in the background while Henry, Hook, and Emma were doing their thing.

[resonance]

I'm sorry, but that episode was bad.

1/ The alternate universe where villains win made no sense. Heroes and villains merely reversed roles so that the original villains became heroes! Literal "villains" didn't win.

2/ The actress who plays Snow was bad at being a villain and Parilla is bad at playing a hero. None of the actors reversed their hero/villian persona in a convincing manner except maybe Grumpy(?)

3/ The "villains win" was played out too fast. It could have been an entire season.

4/ I don't care for Emma turning dark or Camelot. The writers used up too many of the good Disney settings too quickly.

Edited May 11, 2015 by resonance

[FurryFury]

. If the big finale happy ending was the wedding of Robin and Zelena, what led up to that? Did they have a dramatic courtship full of ups and downs, leading to their happy ending in a marriage? And if that's the happy ending, wouldn't that mean Robin was the hero of this story? But wasn't Rumple the hero?

 

Isaac wasn't a big fan of traditional fairy tale storytelling, so I suppose the wedding was just the set-up for Regina being thwarted and losing her happy ending. She's the hero here, not Robin.

[KingOfHearts]

After further reflection, I've decided I wasn't fond of this episode. I apologize to everyone who thought it was the bee's knees!
 

What I didn't like:
* The AU was boring. (I hear the booing now.) Some parts were hilarious, but most of the characters were bland as their counterparts. Captain Swan was fine and Ginny did a great job, but the scenes with Rumple and Bandit Regina were a complete snore to me.

* Henry as the hero was annoying as ever. Driving a car to New York? Sword-fighting Blackbeard? More golden child shenanigans. 

* The Neal references were out of style. The show didn't care about him since 4x03, and suddenly he gets two tribute scenes. Just why?
* The pacing was slow. Granted they had 2 hours to fill, but there was an incredible drag... especially in the AU.

* It was predictable. Nothing was particularly surprising or innovative.

* Unnecessary deaths. Was the point of Hook dying just to get the ILY? There were about hundred other ways to do it. I thought they were seriously killing off Doc, which would have made the AU hold more weight, but I guess they weren't kidding about fanfiction.

* No reaction whatsoever from Henry being in the Enchanted Forest. There was no culture clash to speak of. Until now, he's been the only character who hadn't been to some version of EF. He thought finding the Author key was more exciting?

* Many of the characters were glorified plot devices in this episode. Usually season finales check up on where the characters are now and tease where they're going in the future. This episode was very PLOT PLOT PLOT the whole way through. In this way, I found the S3 finale superior.

Edited May 11, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[FurryFury]

* No reaction whatsoever from Henry being in the Enchanted Forest. There was no culture clash to speak of. Until now, he's been the only character who hadn't been to some version of EF. He thought finding the Author key was more exciting?

 

Nobody even noticed that Henry's and Isaac's clothes looked weird...

[andromeda331]

I really didn't like the finale either. It was really boring and none of it made any sense. If the Villains were winning we should have seen that. The only villain who looked like he was winning was Blackbeard. I kept thinking of how fun last season's finale was compared to Henry's trip. It was really boring. And it really shouldn't have been. It should have been lots of fun and excitement. Henry's reaction to everything there and his family really acting out of character. The only part I liked was Emma and Hook meeting up when he rescued her and Emma fight Rumple and Hook teasing Charming and Snow about killing him.

I'd like to be excited about Camelot and Emma being evil but I'm sure A&E will suck all the fun out of both.

[scenicbyway]

I'm sorry, but that episode was bad.

1/ The alternate universe where villains win made no sense. Heroes and villains merely reversed roles so that the original villains became heroes! Literal "villains" didn't win.

2/ The actress who plays Snow was bad at being a villain and Parilla is bad at playing a hero. None of the actors reversed their hero/villian persona in a convincing manner except maybe Grumpy(?)

3/ The "villains win" was played out too fast. It could have been an entire season.

4/ I don't care for Emma turning dark or Camelot. The writers used up too many of the good Disney settings too quickly.

 

I agree about Ginny and Lana, there's a reason they've been cast as Snow and Regina and not Regina and Snow.  I actually thought Ginny looked bored and Lana was little to earnest.  Josh didn't have much to do besides lurk in the shadows and kill Hook.  Why, if this was Rumple's story did Charming get to kill Hook and not Rumple?  I do think this would've been a better storyline for 4b than the lame "Queens of Darkness."  The QOD had nothing to do with the overall plot of the author or Rumple's happy ending.  I still don't get why Isaac wanted to write Rumple's story out of everyone's. 

[legaleagle53]

I still don't get why Isaac wanted to write Rumple's story out of everyone's. 

 

Probably because he most closely identified with Rumple as the cowardly loser who sucked at life until he was given godlike power.

[FabulousTater]

I keep seeing people saying they wished that the finale plot was the plot for 4B, and I can't help but disagree and that's mostly for one reason:

The more I think about the concept for this episode, the more I think that these writers didn't have the chops to pull it off and instead did their usual superficial hack job.

This. These writers just aren't good enough to pull off an AU for an entire half-season arc. They couldn't even write one episode with a believable and compelling AU story, but you think they can do a half season of it and it won't end up being a pile of meaningless crap that has even less consequences than what we did get? Ya, riiiight. I have some swamp land I want to sell to you all...

 

I really dislike 4B and thought the QoD weren't pointless, but an entire half-season dedicated to an AU written by these writers? Oh, Hell to the NO.

Edited May 11, 2015 by FabulousTater

[Curio]

I don't think the sudden I Love You even added more meaning or impact by putting it there. It just suggested that Emma still can't say it unless there's an immediate crisis. Wouldn't it have been even more heartbreaking if she'd said it earlier and they'd been allowed five minutes of happiness before it was all suddenly torn apart? And if she'd said it when she wasn't about to lose him? And if we got to see his reaction?

 

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I actually thought it was in character for Emma to hesitate with saying "I love you" in that moment on the bed. It's one thing for Emma to admit she loves Hook to AU-Regina who was a (kind of) stranger after she thought she lost him, but it's another thing entirely for someone closed-off like Emma to look Hook in the eyes, be incredibly vulnerable emotionally and physically (she was literally sitting on top of him on her freaking bed), moments after a crisis just ended and admit those words out loud. I could see Emma thinking they would at least get maybe 48 hours until the next crisis hit town, and probably thought she could tell Hook at the docks in a more private setting where she could work up some courage and figure out what she's going to say and how she's going to say it.

 

But I do agree that placing it right at the very end was frustrating and unnecessary. I just wish they wrote the final 10 minutes in a totally different way.

 

I really dislike 4B and thought the QoD weren't pointless, but an entire half-season dedicated to an AU written by these writers? Oh, Hell to the NO.

 

I guess it's just picking your poison. I would have much rather watched alternate universe crap where the author was at least a fun and interesting villain (anyone who knocks out Henry is great in my book) than the pointless Queens of Darkness who were all bark and no bite and stole precious time away from the core characters. Plus, I think the alternate universe would have given all of the main characters more equal plot lines and screen time, which was one of my biggest complaints of 4B.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

 

This. These writers just aren't good enough to pull of an AU for an entire half-season arc.

I agree. The concept itself works better as a half-season, but TS,TW. Normally the writers excel at smaller, self-contained stories over long-term arcs. However, in this finale, they even botched up that. As little of an excursion the AU was, I still found it to be a failure from a story point of view. They hit a lot of the right notes in terms of comedy and WTH moments, but that's about all the world had to offer. It didn't teach us anything new about the characters, nor did it give us any new perspectives on their identities. I found its only redeeming purpose to be pure entertainment, but even that was squandered.

 

 

It was never about Emma or Hook, it was about trolling the audience.

This. I read it like this. If it sounds like a duck and it looks like a duck, it's probably a duck.

Edited May 11, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[FabulousTater]

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I actually thought it was in character for Emma to hesitate with saying "I love you" in that moment on the bed.

But that's the point, her having the realization in the AU and then going forward with saying ILU, as she clearly intended to, would've been a capstone to Emma's character development and growth that she experienced in the AU.

 

There's a difference between writing someone in-character and purposefully sabotaging character development for the sake of suspense. And this instance was a clean cut case of the latter. The moment was built explicitly for that ILU to happen, Emma was on the verge of saying it, but the writers denied it's completion because they wanted to tease the audience. The writers sabotaged Emma's character development for the sake of their shocking ending! That was their entire reason for not having Emma say ILU. It was never about Emma or Hook being in character, it was about A&E trolling the audience.

Edited May 11, 2015 by FabulousTater

[FurryFury]

Speaking about throwbacks, I 've really enjoyed them remembering that Hook taught Henry how to sail and it even being plot relevant. Mostly because I know better than to expect actual continuity from this show.

[jhlipton]

One more thing: Isaac wrote Emma's prison as "impenetrable", but Henry and Hook were able to sail to it, knock out the one guard, climb the stairs, free Emma, knock out the dragon with one shot and sail back, all in an hour or two.  Yeah, that's totally "impenetrable",  Yeesh.

[Curio]

The moment was built explicitly for that ILU to happen, Emma was on the verge of saying it, but the writers denied it's completion because they wanted to tease the audience. The writers sabotaged Emma's character development for the sake of their shocking ending! That was their entire reason for not having Emma say ILU. It was never about Emma or Hook being in character, it was about A&E trolling the audience.

 

Yeah, I'm with you about being annoyed with Adam & Eddy teasing the audience with a fakeout just because they wanted to save the ILU for the "shocking" dagger ending. But I guess I would have been okay with Emma not saying it on the bed if they followed it up with a quieter scene afterward before all hell broke loose again. Alas, we can't change what's on screen, so we're stuck with an underwhelming ILU during the final minute of the episode.

[DeLurker]

Hmmmm....so did Baby Charming get left behind too?

Cause there was no mention of him at all, his presumed babysitters would have been zapped to AU ...then Henry is off to where ever and ultimately AU.

[YaddaYadda]

Isaac wasn't a big fan of traditional fairy tale storytelling, so I suppose the wedding was just the set-up for Regina being thwarted and losing her happy ending. She's the hero here, not Robin.

I think he did because he's an asshole.  He was supposed to write something with the ink she gave him, she changed her mind, he decided to screw her over by having Zelena marry Robin.  He really didn't need to tweak Robin at all.  Robin is just...I think I'm out of words for him.

[FurryFury]

Robin just remained the same awful character he was in the real world, while the show hailed him as a hero. Some things never change, I suppose.

[Aidymar]

Loved the Disney referrence
"August Booth mentions that Walt Disney was a previous Author back in 'Best Laid Plans'. Walt Disney died on December 15th, 1966, the same date on the letter the Apprentice sent to Isaac. The Apprentice mentions how the last Author just passed away."

[Rumsy4]

Baby Snowflake was the Rumbelle baby in the AU.

I felt like Kanye West interrupting Taylor Swift and saying that was nice but CS did it better.

LMAO. Word...

[RadioGirl27]

I know. I would love for some lasting consequences or at least mentions. Hook totally deserved more credit than he got for standing up to the Evil Queen, her huntsman, a crazy dwarf, and Lily who he'd seen as a dragon. He felt a connection to Emma, but seriously he knew he was going to die doing that. Maybe he hoped things would be set right, but there was no promise of that.

I don't mind what A&E want me to think, Hook was the real hero in the AU. He was written as a coward and yet he didn't hesitate and helped two total strangers that were telling a crazy story. He knew he was going to die and yet he faced the Evil Queen, Charming, Lily and whoever else was in Emma's and Henry's way. But, hey, lets make everything about Regina and only her (again).

 

The more I think about the ending, the less I like it. I'm pretty sure they are going to retcon the hell out of the Dark One Curse to drag the angst as long as they can. And I can't get over that line about how much Regina has fought so hard for her happy ending, it was wrong on so many levels. I mean, if for "fight" you understand whine endlessly, blame everybody else for your mistakes and avoid your responsibilities, then yes, Regina has fought really hard for her happy ending. A&E permaboner for Regina is getting ridiculous.

Edited May 11, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[FurryFury]

Baby Snowflake was the Rumbelle baby in the AU.

 

I have fanwanked it the same way, but it has never been stated, really. Could have been any random baby, I suppose, but it still leaves an aftertaste of WTF-ery. Overall, this Author mythology hasn't been thought out at all. They just didn't care.

[Curio]

Baby Snowflake was the Rumbelle baby in the AU.

 

I kept waiting for them to call him 'Neal' and it never happened. It would have been incredibly weird and twisted, but totally what this show loves to do.

[Actionmage]

With the emphasis on the bell(s)ringing, I was hoping that  while Regina took the Kessel Run to the church, that Henry was cutting down or otherwise disabling the bell(s)/clapper(s) in some fashion.  I know I kept yelling for Regina to just go in the church, as well as "Cut the rope,Henry! Cut the damn rope!!"  Because, sure enough, the bells were the big signifier that prompted everyone to the big Henry's The Author reveal. We still could have had that; Emma was never going to be happy with Isaac, so the pen-freeing punch was going to come anyway.  Henry could have raced to his moms with the clapper(s) in hand.

 

As to Baby Snowflake, he has now officially joined the ranks of Red and the other princesses and townspeople: he is just not worth caring about, by the writers, when something more important, to the writers, comes along. I have a sneaky suspicion that if anyone of TPTB are on Twitter and it's asked of them, the response will be similar to the rape allegations. Something along the lines of 'My 11 year old daughter knows that nothing ever happens to babies. It's fiction, get a grip! '  You and I know that's hogwash, but TPTB are not happy when reasonable questions are brought up about small things. That there is no answer other than variations on 'quit asking that!' or 'that's stupid!' show the writing's weaknesses more strongly. Also, their inability to think quickly.  The folks here fanwank pretty fast. Then again, we've been trained.

 

I'm coming back for the premiere, but I can't speak for the rest of the the eps. If the story could be interesting, I could tag along. Then again, I've tagged along for the better part of four years and my trust has eroded.  Hope they have Real Lancelot and that Cora was proven to be the lying liar she is, though.

[Shanna Marie]

But that's the point, her having the realization in the AU and then going forward with saying ILU, as she clearly intended to, would've been a capstone to Emma's character development and growth that she experienced in the AU.

Yeah, that seemed like it was the point to the whole thing, that she'd learned that she needed to say it while she had a chance, not wait until it was almost too late, so her chickening out after learning the lesson didn't work.

 

And either way, it would have helped immensely if we'd ever had the slightest sense that she'd wanted to say it or was on the verge of saying it previously and then couldn't go through with it, or even if we'd had a moment where we could tell she realized she felt it. They came pretty close with her reaction to him saying she was his happy ending, but that seemed more like she was deeply touched to hear that from him, not so much like she was feeling it herself. She barely even reacted to the fact that she'd almost lost him. Since she'd already once this half season thought he was dead, it seemed weird for her to suddenly be all "but I never told him" when he dies this time without anything having come up between then and now.

 

Of course, it was all done so she could give the stirring "go tell him" pep talk to Regina. But there's a huge difference between Emma regretting not saying anything to the guy she knows loves her, whom she's been dating for months, and who has already made great sacrifices for her and Regina not interrupting the wedding of a guy she just met.

 

But then I pretty much loathe the interrupting the wedding trope, whether it's in romantic comedies, sitcoms, or fantasy. If someone has made the decision to commit to someone, it's just tacky to choose that moment to announce yourself as a candidate, and if you think you'd not go through with your own wedding if another person popped by and made herself available, then you shouldn't be getting married to the person you're marrying.

[Rumsy4]

The Dark One mythology seems to have been changed from what it was before. Until now, it was never described as an entity inhabiting a host body. I thought it was a Dark Curse that corrupted the soul of the person. Now it's seems more like Spiderman 3. How many souls were in Rumple's body? At one point the Dark One, Rumple, and Neal inhabited it? Ugh...

 

It would have been morbidly funny if Rumple's body had rapidly aged and crumbled to dust once the Dark One was sucked out of him. I really donno where they can go with his character at this point. A whole season of Rumbelle angst and a defanged Rumple coping with life without magic? Riveting... Not.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Rumsy4

[YaddaYadda]

I'm pretty sure they are going to retcon the hell out of the Dark One Curse to drag the angst as long as they can.

 

The thing is, they can because we know almost next to nothing about the Dark One Curse and we don't know it has ever inhabited a woman, so you know, circumstances and all.

[FurryFury]

The thing is, they can because we know almost next to nothing about the Dark One Curse and we don't know it has ever inhabited a woman, so you know, circumstances and all.

Let's be honest, they'll retcon the hell out of it anyway. It happens every season, this show lives on retcons.

[RadioGirl27]

The thing is, they can because we know almost next to nothing about the Dark One Curse and we don't know it has ever inhabited a woman, so you know, circumstances and all.

But we know how it worked in Rumple and we have also seen Zoso. So whatever changes they make now it would be a retcon. Saying that it works differently in her because she is a woman not only would be sexist but also just an excuse to make all the changes they would need to fit their plot for season 5. (I'm not calling you sexist, but A&E if they use that as an excuse to change things).

Edited May 11, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[Dani-Ellie]

I think that if the Dark One curse works at all differently within Emma, they have perfect reason to state that her own innate internal magic is affecting it. Rumple was just a random spinner, and from what I can remember, Zoso was just a random guy who got tricked into it as well. I don't believe we've ever seen the Dark One curse in someone who was already a magic user.

[Guest]

I think that if the Dark One curse works at all differently within Emma, they have perfect reason to state that her own innate internal magic is affecting it. Rumple was just a random spinner, and from what I can remember, Zoso was just a random guy who got tricked into it as well. I don't believe we've ever seen the Dark One curse in someone who was already a magic user.

 

The biggest thing that I hope they think about is how the Dark Curse should manifest in Emma.  In Rumpel, you could tell that how he used the Dark Curse originated from his own self loathing and darkest desires.  Emma should be a completely different version of the Dark One for that reason alone. 

 

I don't know if it was intentional, but I find it interesting that both Rumpel and Isaac have no concept of courage.  I think they meant to write Hook as having no courage but instead he ended up having no confidence which is different.

[KingOfHearts]

 

A whole season of Rumbelle angst and a defanged Rumple coping with life without magic? Riveting... Not.

I don't see how Robert Carlyle could be putting up with that... unless Rumple is frantically searching for a way to get his power back somehow while his wife thinks he's redeeming himself. Oh wait... that's already happened.

Edited May 12, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[kili]

I don't know if it was intentional, but I find it interesting that both Rumpel and Isaac have no concept of courage.  I think they meant to write Hook as having no courage but instead he ended up having no confidence which is different.

 

Yes, Hook showed a lot of courage throughout. Stealing a boat from his boss (who will not be happy about it). Sailing a boat through treacherous waters (the sea had some scary names). Going up against a scary Black Knight. Going up against a dragon. And then facing off in a duel against an Evil Queen with Magic, her skilled swordsman, a grump dwarf and the dragon when he'd just learned to handle a sword. A coward would have done the first one let alone all of them. And this all happened in less than one day.

[Watt]

I see a lot of "I'm just about done with this show!" and I've said it before myself.... But I realized I'm not kidding anyone. I'm never going to be able to quit this show. I'm a ride or die to the end kind of girl, I guess, even if it goes up on flames. Hook and Emma are too precious forever.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I see a lot of "I'm just about done with this show!" and I've said it before myself.... But I realized I'm not kidding anyone. I'm never going to be able to quit this show. I'm a ride or die to the end kind of girl, I guess, even if it goes up on flames. Hook and Emma are too precious forever.

I'm going to stick it out until the end as well. I've gotten too invested to turn back. 

[KAOS Agent]

One of reasons I think the AU fell flat for me was because it was yet another Snowing v Regina redux just with the roles flipped. In theory, it should be fun, but I'm so over that story. Plus, Regina was locked into the pre-Snow Falls Bandit!Snow, so she was just a closed off bitch and her falling in love scenes with Robin can't even hold a candle to the Snow/Charming meet cute (and I say this as someone who isn't a huge fan of Snowing). Apparently, Outlaw Queen is just an utter failure in any reality for me.

 

The Captain Swan and Hero!Rumpel stuff was new and thus, more entertaining. Unfortunately, this was pretty brief and we were onto not so interesting plot stuff. Hook was by far my favorite in terms of characterization. What's funny about him sacrificing himself is that if you look at things from his perspective, he has a huge motivation to help Emma/Henry even if it means his AU life. They've told him he's a master swordsman who is the captain of the Jolly Roger and he has a smoking hot girlfriend who clearly cares for him. Given a choice of uncertain, beaten down deckhand vs confident pirate captain there's no contest. Now he's putting a hell of a lot of faith in a woman he just met, but Hook's always done that. Plus, he's already seen that Emma & Henry get shit done. 

[Cindy McLennan]

That's going to be my headcanon, but I think they purposely left it fairly open.  Snow and David talk about being put on that path, but not being forced to do it.  So, either they were forced to do it, or they were dummies that run with any idea somebody flashes at them. 

 

It's vaguely worded enough it gives them wiggle room either way.  Until it's confirmed one way or the other, I'm going with "forced to do it."

 

I love Snow and Charming more than any other canonical pair, but I feel just the opposite. Isaac put them on them path, but they made the (bad) choice. And that's okay. Heroes can have feet of clay. </stress rhyme>

 

I just have to say that I loved the look on Emma's face when she runs into AU!Hook for the first time. She looked like an angel. Way to knock it out of the park, JMo!

 

Right? I'm a heterosexual woman, but am still pretty damned sure I'd have fallen directly in love with JMo, if she looked at me like that.

 

This just goes back to the writers of this show not knowing when to pay-off a built up scene and instead giving those moments short shrift because they want to save it for their not!shocking, predictable!twist.

 

Having Emma say ILU to Hook when she first sees him when they return from the AU would've been completely perfect pay-off to what Emma just went through, and would've also been an excellent moment of growth for her because in the past she's only said ILU to anyone right before everyone is going to die. It actually made no sense for her to withhold saying it especially in light of what she said while in the AU. The writers should've given Emma that moment of telling Hook ILU when they were reunited, but because these writers are hacks they robbed that scene, of Emma and Hook's reunion, of it's full emotional power.

 

What should've been a scene that had people (who are invested in Emma, Hook, or CS) fist-bumping and yelling "YAS!" in joy, was deflated because they wanted to save that ILU for their shocking!twist. That's hack writing; That's shit writing. When you withhold the logical progression in the development of a character and a relationship for the sake of creating a shocking!twist then you've lost the focus of what really matters in telling a story; because it's no longer about the characters and instead it's about you indulging in a need to feel smug by toying with the audience.

 

I think it's just clear evidence that A&E are only interested in gimmicks rather than what they really should be focused on - staying true to the characters and telling the character's story.

 

I disagree that Adam and Eddy are either hack or shit writers. That said, I think they totally miscalled Emma's ILY revelation. She should have told Hook she loved him, as soon as she ran to him and found him in Snow's loft. Doing so would not have undercut her self-sacrifice. It would have made the sacrifice even weightier for Emma and for Hook.

 

 

Oh, and I've almost forgotten. The geek in me was exhilarated at hearing the line about Kashyyk when Henry and Hook tricked the guard in Emma's tower... And then Henry had to turn back and explain the joke, totally ruining it. So much fail. 

 

The geek in me is frigging old. And while I love Star Wars, episode 4 (which was episode 1, in my day), I did not remember Kashyyk. I'm glad the joke was spelled out.

 

But that's the point, her having the realization in the AU and then going forward with saying ILU, as she clearly intended to, would've been a capstone to Emma's character development and growth that she experienced in the AU.

 

There's a difference between writing someone in-character and purposefully sabotaging character development for the sake of suspense. And this instance was a clean cut case of the latter. The moment was built explicitly for that ILU to happen, Emma was on the verge of saying it, but the writers denied it's completion because they wanted to tease the audience. The writers sabotaged Emma's character development for the sake of their shocking ending! That was their entire reason for not having Emma say ILU. It was never about Emma or Hook being in character, it was about A&E trolling the audience.

 

While I disagree that it was trolling (Adam, for one, has been way too kind to me, especially since TWoP was shut down, and his kindness extended to investigating if I could write ABC's recaps), I do think that they saved that ILY moment for shock value, and that doing so was a miscalculation. What I mostly want to say, though, its that I think Adam and Eddy are decent people, and while we might have criticism of their creative choices, I dislike it when we decide that means they have character flaws. These are kind men who are writing their dream, and it might be different from our dream, but there is no malice in them.

 

Hmmmm....so did Baby Charming get left behind too?

Cause there was no mention of him at all, his presumed babysitters would have been zapped to AU ...then Henry is off to where ever and ultimately AU.

 

The AU was never real. It only ever would have been real if it finished without the white hats interfering. So babies like snowflake and rum belle don't need to be real. They were still fictional, and remained that way. They would only be real if the unspeakable happened, and it did not.

 

I see a lot of "I'm just about done with this show!" and I've said it before myself.... But I realized I'm not kidding anyone. I'm never going to be able to quit this show. I'm a ride or die to the end kind of girl, I guess, even if it goes up on flames. Hook and Emma are too precious forever.

 

Yeah. Ride or die sucks, but I'm a "ride," all the way. Witness: SUPERNATURAL. Hey, I've died twice (or possibly 5 times).

Edited May 12, 2015 by CindyMcLennan

[Camera One]

This episode had its moments, but in no way did it make up for the lameness of 4B.  Despite the chance to provide a glimpse into an alternate reality, I found this episode quite by-the-numbers and predictable, served with a gigantic dollop of stupid, as per usual.

 

In some ways, this episode was pretty much a reworked version of the 3B finale, with Henry as the lead instead of Emma and Hook, as we go from person to person in the Enchanted Forest.  I must say I enjoyed Henry for the first time in a long time.  I liked that he took action to try to figure out everyone's disappearance, and I enjoyed his kickass moves even if they came a little too easy (finally, the protagonist being allowed to knock a couple of people out and it's Henry... *crickets*).  You could see his eyes light up when he realized he finally got to see Fairytale Land.  

 

Rumple the Ogre Slayer was mildly entertaining, but as KAOS Agent also said, the direct reversal of Snow and Regina felt like retread.  However, I did think the Evil Snow/Evil Charming dynamic was mildly intriguing.  

 

I didn't find Bandit Regina to be convincing.  I don't know if she was wearing too much makeup or what, but I couldn't buy her scenes.  Once Henry met up with Alt Regina, things began to drag.  I'm sick of hearing Henry give Regina pep-talks, and we got so much of this.  Finally, I began to understand why this episode was called Operation Mongoose.  Once again, everyone's actions involved making sure Regina got her happy ending and true love's kiss with Robin.  

 

I don't even understand why this specific act would invalidate Isaac's story, or why Rumple's story even includes Robin Hood.  If Rumple wanted Regina to be suffering separated from her True Love, why did she only think of Robin as a competitor when Henry mentioned him.  I can see Rumple dictating a story that makes Regina suffer, but wouldn't he want to make Zelena suffer too?   Add to that Hook's life not being all that terrible, I don't buy this as Rumple's dream story.  What exactly was the plot of this story?  Was Regina the main character?   If Isaac was all about punishing the heroes, why make Evil Snow so powerful and supreme?

 

Another question - when the last chapter ends, what happens to everyone in the story?  Do they freeze into place?  If not, why is it that when the bell tolls and the book ends, the story cannot be changed?  Can't Henry re-enter the story and try again?  

 

Why was it that when the Author wrote the book before, the characters lived out what he wrote (eg. Cruella getting magical powers, The Apprentice being forced to enact the spell).  Yet, this time, everyone gets trapped inside a story book?  So they didn't actually go back to the Enchanted Forest?   So Rumple's happy ending was to be an oblivious character inside a book?  Last time, the Author wrote one line and it came true immediately.  This time, the Author needs to write the entire story and "The End" before anything happens?

 

For me, the scene which made me go awww to most was when Henry found Emma and realized she remembered him.  I've missed the mother/son relationship, though once again, we had to slog through equal time with Henry/Regina to get there.  It's such a shame they promptly made Emma into another cheerleader for Regina for the remainder of the quest.

 

As usual with this show, more than an hour was spent on one goal (getting Regina to the Church on time to stop the wedding), only to reveal that was irrelevant, since Henry is the next Author!  And, no, Emma we don't need your blood, since Regina is the Light Savior!  

 

And now onto the overload of stupid in this episode.  So Blue could have gotten the Apprentice out of the Hat all this time?  There's no way Hook didn't mention the old man he hatted.  Even after the Isaac fiasco, the Apprentice still uses the "Pick the Pen, the Pen Picks You!" method to choose the next Author?  So when is Henry supposed to start writing?  Does he get to pick which stories to record?  What about all the stories he misses while he's at school?  If Henry had not broken the pen, could he have fixed the problem with the Black Goop?  If the Apprentice knew the source of the Dark One and it needed to be tethered to a person, why would he try the Hat procedure?  Like KAOS Agent, I also wonder why they didn't just toss Rumple over the town line?   Why didn't the Apprentice become the next Dark One when the Black Goop went into him?  

 

So Season 4 is now over, and we still don't know why the Sorcerer left his house empty and unguarded, why the Apprentice didn't bother to check up on it, why they just left the Hat box on a random table, why the Sorcerer created a way for the Dark One to cleave themselves from the Dagger, why the Key to the door was left convenient in a drawer at the Sorcerer's mansion, why he was so willing to hand Emma over to the Snow Queen as a candidate for sisterhood, why no writer was appointed after Isaac, etc.  They've already made Merlin beyond stupid and we haven't even met him yet.  I had to laugh when the Apprentice announced that the first order of business was to put Isaac back into the Book.  Yeah, like it worked sooooo well before.  

 

I thought they would book-end the half-season with the Queens of Darkness, but they were MIA.  The journey would have been way more fun with more cameos.  At least Evil Granny was a hoot.   So why were the Fairies and Blue working against Evil Snow?  Nothing is consistent.

 

Aside from Dark Emma, the only other lingering mystery is Lily's father.  I'm sorry, but who the hell cares. 

Edited May 12, 2015 by Camera One

[Cindy McLennan]

This episode had its moments, but in no way did it make up for the lameness of 4B.  Despite the chance to provide a glimpse into an alternate reality, I found this episode quite by-the-numbers and predictable, served with a gigantic dollop of stupid, as per usual.

 

In some ways, this episode was pretty much a reworked version of the 3B finale, with Henry as the lead instead of Emma and Hook, as we go from person to person in the Enchanted Forest.  I must say I enjoyed Henry for the first time in a long time.  I liked that he took action to try to figure out everyone's disappearance, and I didn't mind his kickass moves even if they came a little too easy.  You could see his eyes light up when he realized he finally got to see Fairytale Land.  

 

Rumple the Ogre Slayer was mildly entertaining, but as KAOS Agent also said, the direct reversal of Snow and Regina felt like retread.  With that said, I did think the Evil Snow/Evil Charming dynamic was mildly intriguing.  

 

I didn't find Bandit Regina to be convincing.  I don't know if she was wearing too much makeup or what, but I couldn't buy her scenes.  Once Henry met up with Alt Regina, things began to drag.  I'm sick of hearing Henry give Regina pep-talks, and we got so much of this.  Finally, I began to understand why this episode was called Operation Mongoose.  Once again, everyone's actions involved making sure Regina got her happy ending and true love's kiss with Robin.  

 

I don't even understand why this specific act would invalidate Isaac's story, or why Rumple's story even includes Robin Hood.  If Rumple wanted Regina to be suffering separated from her True Love, why did she only think of Robin as a competitor when Henry mentioned him.  I can see Rumple dictating a story that makes Regina suffer, but wouldn't he want to make Zelena suffer too?   Add to that Hook's life not being all that terrible, I don't buy this as Rumple's dream story.  What exactly was the plot of this story?  Was Regina the main character?   If Isaac was all about punishing the heroes, why make Evil Snow so powerful and supreme?

 

Another question - when the last chapter ends, what happens to everyone in the story?  Do they freeze into place?  If not, why is it that when the bell tolls and the book ends, the story cannot be changed?  Can't Henry re-enter the story and try again?  

 

Why was it that when the Author wrote the book before, the characters lived out what he wrote (eg. Cruella getting magical powers, The Apprentice being forced to enact the spell).  Yet, this time, everyone gets trapped inside a story book?  So they didn't actually go back to the Enchanted Forest?   So Rumple's happy ending was to be an oblivious character inside a book?  Last time, the Author wrote one line and it came true immediately.  This time, the Author needs to write "The End" and the entire story before anything happens?

 

For me, the scene which made me go awww to most was when Henry found Emma and realized she remembered him.  I've missed the mother/son relationship, though once again, we had to slog through equal time with Henry/Regina to get there.  It's such a shame they promptly made Emma into another cheerleader for Regina for the remainder of the quest.

 

As usual with this show, more than an hour was spent on one goal (getting Regina to the Church on time to stop the wedding), only to reveal that was irrelevant, since Henry is the next Author!  And, no, Emma we don't need your blood, since Regina is the Light Savior!  

 

And now onto the overload of stupid in this episode.  So Blue could have gotten the Apprentice out of the Hat all this time?  There's no way Hook didn't mention the old man he hatted.  Even after the Isaac fiasco, the Apprentice still uses the "Pick the Pen, the Pen Picks You!" method to choose the next Author?  So when is Henry supposed to start writing?  Does he get to pick which stories to record?  What about all the stories he misses while he's at school?  If Henry had not broken the pen, could he have fixed the problem with the Black Goop?  If the Apprentice knew the source of the Dark One and it needed to be tethered to a person, why would he try the Hat procedure?  I also wondered what KAOS Agent suggested above... why didn't they just toss Rumple over the town line?   Why didn't the Apprentice become the next Dark One when the Black Goop went into him?  

 

So Season 4 is now over, and we still don't know why the Sorcerer left his house empty and unguarded, why the Apprentice didn't bother to check up on it, why they just left the Hat box on a random table, why the Sorcerer created a way for the Dark One to cleave themselves from the Dagger, why the Key to the door was left convenient in a drawer at the Sorcerer's mansion, why he was so willing to hand Emma over to the Snow Queen as a candidate for sisterhood, why no writer was appointed after Isaac, etc.  They've already made Merlin beyond stupid and we haven't even met him yet.  I had to laugh when the Apprentice announced that the first order of business was to put Isaac back into the Book.  Yeah, like it worked sooooo well before.  

 

Aside from Dark Emma, the only other lingering mystery is Lily's father.  I'm sorry, but who the hell cares.

I feel like I should edit down your post, but am not sure where to attack.

In my opinion, here is the thing. All the previous authors were only historians. That is, they only wrote what happened, after it happened. Isaac decided to be a creator. He composes the stories, and the rules seem to be that if his story/stories reached completion, they would be canon, but until they did, they were just speculation. Henry, using Regina's blood, blotted out Isacc's stories, before they could become real. Does this help?

[Camera One]

Sort of.  So at some point, Issac's "Heroes and Villains" stories would have become real?  Were the characters really in the Enchanted Forest?  Since he had already completed and published his book, why would Henry still be able to blot them out?

Edited May 12, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

I think it's because Henry entered the book before it ended. Basically, he had until the bells rang which signified the end of the story to change how it ended. It was unfortunate for him that he entered in the last chapter because he had limited time to get things done.

[FabulousTater]

I guess since you singled out my posts multiple times, Cindy, I'll respond to your critiques of my critiques.

 

What I mostly want to say, though, its that I think Adam and Eddy are decent people, and while we might have criticism of their creative choices, I dislike it when we decide that means they have character flaws. These are kind men who are writing their dream, and it might be different from our dream, but there is no malice in them.

Yes, everyone has dreams. That's great (that's a sincere remark, btw). But their dream isn’t in question. It’s their ability to execute. People can be the warmest, kindest teddy bears in the universe, but being a nice human being isn’t exclusively related with competency and having the ability to do a job. In this case, show running. It’s not about disagreeing with their dream, it’s that there are clear structural issues with how the show is written. There are huge issues with their pacing, the show internals are for the most part bereft of logic, and they continually fail to pay-off on their setups. These writing issues have been on going since season 2 and they have generally failed to address these problems, and in some instances have doubled down on their worst habits.

 

That’s super for them that they are living a dream of theirs, but if they want to keep living their dream, perhaps it would behoove them to pay more attention to what are clear problems and failures in their show. Their dream is, after all, contingent on meeting the expectations of their network ABC (and that expectation is to make the network money) and judging by the current ratings their ability to meet that monetary demand is slipping - quickly. Though, I suppose, if their dream is to achieve cancellation after failing to execute, then live that dream, guys. You’re doing well.

Edited May 12, 2015 by FabulousTater

[Arnella]

Finally got a chance read the whole forum. 

I thought Henry breaking the pen was just another way to show that he is the BESTEST KID EVAH but yeah, follow the rules and don't try to bring back your dead dad but use the power to save your mom! Self righteous brat!  The Apprentice didn't seem distraught when he broke it (was more proud) so the pen itself probably doesn't matter that much.  So Henry is STILL the author?  Will he get the new pen AFTER they save Emma or just in time to save her after another really slow season?

 

Lilly's dad HAS to be Merlin or Arthur or why stop the action to have that weird interaction in the diner indicating that this will be part of the story that centers on Camelot?

 

Agree that they could have sped up the "Emma mad at parents/discover pregnancy we all already guessed" episodes and had a few more in the AU.  For Evil Snow's wardrobe and Charming's sexy guyliner if nothing else.  But also liked it for giving the core characters something to do and Grumpy and Granny actually got to be on screen!   Grumpy got to do grumpy things!!  Maybe a couple more episodes would have brought out some more of the forgotten ones.

 

I have found Robin Hood and his interactions with Regina nonsensical and a little creepy since his first appearance and the wedding scene ran true to form.

 

I only keep watching for Robert Carlyle but even he couldn't save this last 1/2 season of Rumple's heart dying...SNORE.  Now he will be coward, magicless Rumple again?  Spending all his time with whiny Belle talking about how much she loves him no matter what.  Nononono!  I might be cool with Belle finding him less attractive without the darkness (she's really Lacey underneath!) and dealing with that.  Or finding out that he is still a manipulative genius without the Dark One.

I will tentatively stick around to find out especially since I am a big Camelot fan but if Robert doesn't get the material he deserves, I won't be able to to.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Arnella

[Guest]

Thoughts on rewatch

 

Operation Mongoose P1:  The Writers try to do a Supernatural meta episode… and fail

 

Isaac selling television sets is either fandom telling the writers we want more characterization or the writers telling fandom that we can't see the compelling complexity of their characterization.  The customers wanting the clicker is either fandom quitting the show in annoyance or the writers telling fandom to turn the channel if we don’t like it?

 

I know they reveal later that Isaac did all this because his horrible boss was just like Charming… still don’t see it.  The boss is just like these forums though.  Except when he’s annoyed and spouting off in the continuity and nitpick thread and then Isaac is fandom again.

 

They probably don’t allow jokes about the last Author’s head being rumored to be cryogenically frozen and stored under the Pirates of the Caribbean ride on this network.

 

CGI mansion is terrible. Hint.  In a meta episode you have it flicker to green screen or something.  You gotta go obvious in the badness, well more than the usual obvious badness.

 

PS, I don’t ship SwanQueen but Emma definitely side eyed Regina and Hood.

 

I digress from my meta reflections, but Henry: when an Author rewrites the story, you open the OUAT book to see if it has a clue not look at it like a Cobra about to bite you and walk away.

 

Henry reacts to the Author rewriting the story by leaving Storybrooke.  Because for the first time in the history of this show, the best place to look for a bunch of fairy tale characters that vanished into thin air is the Lw/oM like they boarded a fleet of buses out of town and forgot to check if they’d rounded up all the kids.

 

The back jacket of Heller’s book “plotting and pacing are superb.”  I kid you not.

 

I’m having a difficult time with the idea that the Author has enough power to write his happy ending in Lw/oM where he has instantaneous accolades and fan events.  This is a very Supernatural books / musical theater episode except terrible at it.  The key ingredient is you play off how fandom feels about the show not how fandom feels about the writers and vice versa.  It’s a subtle difference but important.  Every fan having an opinion about Regina getting a happy ending (and only voicing one of them, the one that launched Woegina) is not to the level of funny as Sam and Dean’s reaction to the UST car scene at the end of every SPN episode and the conviction that fandom would revolt if deprived of aforementioned scene.

 

Henry getting clocked in the head with a shield.  Still funny.

 

I remain sad that it wasn’t the ‘loud toiling of Belles at sunset’.  I pictured a spell that resulted in a gaggle of Belle clones pressed into service for Rumpel (Chores.  Mind. Gutter. Out) and annoyed about it and bitching him out to make up for all the times he lied or put her to sleep in Storybrooke.

 

Issac about Henry ‘please be dead. Please be dead.’  Me in every other episode but this one about Henry ‘Fall in a pit. Spell of forgetfulness.  Fall in a pit. Spell of forgetfulness.’ Mantra since season 1.

 

Still loving Evil Snow’s cockadoodle hairdo.  Snow uses Charming’s heart as a walkie talkie.  Later she wipes Regina’s imaginary heart goop onto her dress, I presume because it’s icky.

 

Arrow knocking door into Snow’s fireball and fireball into Snow’s face.  Still funny.

 

There has to be a joke somewhere in Regina’s instalove for Robin Hood when he is clearly not that into her and has eyes only for Zelena but I can’t find it.  It’s like the writers think putting the two together over and over again with no effort to build any kind of relationship will suddenly work because Regina wants it so bad.  Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.

 

I liked the second part much better.  There were possibilities here but a lot of them, outside of Dark Snow and Charming, were missed or at least not exploited nearly enough.

Edited May 12, 2015 by ParadoxLost

[AudienceofOne]

I hated it. Well, maybe that's too harsh. Captain Swan is and always will be awesome and the minute Emma and Hook were on screen I just started smiling. I think they're the reason I'm still watching. But I had big, big problems with this episode both in conception and execution and it went beyond the fact that the entire season has felt like bad Regina fan fiction. 

 

Firstly, the idea was to give villians happy endings. That was Rumple's plan, it was Regina's plan: the entire premise of the season was "villians don't get happy endings and that's unfair" and bringing in the Author backed up this claim by eliminating free will and blaming a God-like figure for their actions. But the book "Heroes and Villians" didn't "give villians happy endings". It made the villains heroes and vice versa so the villians still didn't get happy endings. It was the same story, just with different people in the same damn roles. And I didn't buy it. Sure it was fun seeing Hook as a deckhand and Snow as the Evil Queen but fun is all it was. Rumple didn't write himself a "villian's happy ending". He wrote himself as a hero. The heroes still got happy endings and the villians didn't. They just changed who was a hero and who was a villian with the stroke of a pen. And that completely undermines the premise of the show. It's exactly the same issue I had with the season as a whole.

 

On top of that, this obsession with the frightful Robin and Regina romance is just... well... frightful. Hey, let's rewrite history so it's Regina's "true love's kiss" that's important (again) and now she's the Saviour even though that literally makes no sense. She wasn't the Saviour or the Dark Saviour. So how could her blood be used for the book?

 

I get that the writers were absolutely determined for Emma to go dark but this is the worst possible way to do it. Rumpelstiltskin wasn't dark because he was the Dark One. He was dark because he chose to be the Dark One. That was the point of his character; that he pursued power for selfish and cowardly reasons and was therefore consumed by darkness. The idea the emodiment of light magic in this universe can be made dark against her will throws this point in the trash. Rumple, like everyone else, had no free will. And we're back to why we would ever care about this story anymore.

 

If nobody has free will and nobody ever made an active choice about how they live their lives (except Regina, of course, there's always an exception for Regina) then what's the point? Why are we even here?

[scenicbyway]

Why was Rumple dying when, as the Dark One, he's supposed to be immortal? I get that his heart was black, but why does it matter when you're the Dark One?

[AudienceofOne]

Why was Rumple dying when, as the Dark One, he's supposed to be immortal? I get that his heart was black, but why does it matter when you're the Dark One?

 

 

Oh yeah, and that. He was dying because he was exiled to a land without magic - at least until he used the magic deus ex machina thingy that was SO important they devoted an entire damn episode to it... and then he came back to Storybrooke where there was magic so that shouldn't have mattered anymore. Except it did. You know, because.