S01.E06: Masters Of Phantoms

[Meredith Quill]

Episode Synopsis:

 

After uncovering treasonable offences, Cromwell exacts the ultimate revenge.

[Primetimer]

Kidding, of course. Things don't end well at all for at least a half dozen characters.

Read the story

[irisheyes]

Knowing how it ends in real life for Cromwell, the last 10 minutes of this episode were totally chilling.

[Knuckles]

Was Anne guilty, or was she? Clearly it did not matter...the King wanted her gone and Cromwell had to deliver. This was the most frightening portrayal of Anne's fall that I have seen. The actress was just superb...the wide-eyed fear growing exponentially, while she struggled to maintain some dignity. And Rylance...he looked deeply saddened and finally deeply frightened as well. Most terrible of all was his slow walk to a grinning, delighted Henry, who smothered him in an embrace.

This was great television, and Rylance in his stillness, was commanding.

[doodlebug]

 

Was Anne guilty, or was she?

In real life?  She probably wasn't guilty of the crimes she was charged with.  There's no evidence that Anne cheated on Henry, let alone with her brother; although some have speculated that, towards the end, Henry was having some difficulties in bed and Anne knew her only hope was to have a boy, so she might've turned to others in desperation.  But, there really isn't any proof that she ever slept with anyone else after bedding Henry.  In those days, it didn't really matter.  Those accused of treason weren't even permitted to have representation in court and there was no defense presented.  The outcome was pretty well assured from the start and the sentence carried out just a few days later. The jury was handpicked by the King's men including Cromwell.  Anne's own uncle and her first love, Harry Percy, were on rhea jury but they knew what they had to do. One of the charges against her was that she used witchcraft to fool Henry into falling in love with her against his will.  I think we can safely say she wasn't guilty of that.

 

Anne did spend a great deal of time hanging out with and flirting with various young men who flocked around which was considered unseemly for a British queen af the time.  She was pretty frivolous and not concerned about giving the wrong impression; mainly because she was raised in the French court where that kind of behavior was expected and tolerated. 

 

The main witness for the charge of adultery was Jane Rochford who was well known to hate her husband George Boleyn; their marriage was unhappy from the start.  Anne and Jane were hardly bosom buddies either, Jane was forced to be lady in waiting due to their relationship by marriage but she and Anne detested one another.

Edited May 11, 2015 by doodlebug

[jjj]

I'm surprised that they did not include the executions of the five men -- even if only the sounds of the crowd on their execution day.  It is a major point of the history that Anne knew her brother and the other four accused (including the lute player) had been killed two days before her own execution.  I'm not saying the production needed all the details that are in the book (and accurate according to accounts of the period), but it adds to the terror of the episode. 

 

Was Anne guilty?  I doubt it.  But was Catherine of Aragon guilty of the Biblical sin Henry and Anne attributed to her, and therefore her daughter?  And inflammatory charges will find Jane Rochford and Thomas Cromwell ultimately, so what goes around...

[HoodlumSheep]

Bye bye Anne! Man, thIs is like his 90th time getting a hug from Henry. Too bad the "brotp" goes downhill. Right?

Okay, this is going to be a stupid question, but where was Mary Boleyn? She marries beneath her at some point, but what episode was that supposed to be in, because I feel like the US version must of cut it? I haven't missed an episode, and I can't remember where she disappeared to?

I think my favorite episode out of the bunch was the episode where Thomas More dies.

Is there going to be a season 2? They don't have many more years to cover before...well, you know.

[MrsE]

There will be another season when Mantel finishes the third book.

[sugarbaker design]

Good episode, not as good as I thought it would be, but good nonetheless.  I too, felt cheated at not seeing the four men get beheaded, Cromwell worked overtime to get these guys executed.  I thought they would have shown it with this voice over from Cromwell taken from the book (perhaps my favorite passage):

 

Look, he says: once you have exhausted the process of negotiation and compromise, one you have fixed on the destruction of an enemy, that destruction must be swift and it must be perfect. Before you even glance in his direction, you should have his name on a warrant, the ports blocked, his wife and friends bought, his heir under your protection, his money in your strong room and his dog running to your whistle. Before he wakes in the morning, you should have the axe in your hand.”

 

That being said, Anne's downfall was heartbreaking, I couldn't bear to look at her gazing up at the windows, on her way to the gallows, hoping for a glimpse of Henry suddenly having a change of heart.  I did enjoy young Gregory Cromwell giving Francis Bryan the stinkeye for relishing in Anne's demise.  But of course the most chilling was the Henry VIII bear hug at the end.

 

edited because I thought Francis Bryan was Richard Cromwell.

Edited May 11, 2015 by sugarbaker design

[attica]

Gosh, I found myself quite dwelling on the details of the execution. Without a block, the sword-swinger has to swing hard enough to decap before the body moves in response to the blow, assuming she's not moving of her own volition anyway. And after a shout that is bound to make your blindfolded victim flinch! Axes and chopping blocks seem like the way to go here, right? Is there a protocol that deems Anne not good enough/too good for that more practical approach?

 

Yeah, Jane Rochford knew exactly what accusations to sling, the very ones to gain purchase with Henry. No kidding, H, she didn't have time to fuck "hundreds" of men. Just the notion of a treacherous woman is enough to ascribe her supernatural abilities, apparently.

 

Claire Foy's work was quite good overall, I think. Her resignation and one-word answers in the trial scene were very effective for me. Poor thing. All that ambition, and no way to wield it safely. A woman's lot, time and time again.

 

I'm sad it's done. I loved this, every minute.

[sugarbaker design]

Is there a protocol that deems Anne not good enough/too good for that more practical approach?

 

 

Conventional wisdom has it that Henry thought Anne too good for the common axe and summoned a French executioner with different methods.

Edited May 11, 2015 by sugarbaker design

[attica]

Thanks, sugarbaker! 

 

It's possible I may go around the office today announcing "Apportez l'epee!" just to see how folks react. Or maybe just to entertain myself.

[Calamity Jane]

Thanks, sugarbaker! 

 

It's possible I may go around the office today announcing "Apportez l'epee!" just to see how folks react. Or maybe just to entertain myself.

Supposedly it's also connected with Anne's saying she had but a little neck.  

[kitmerlot1213]

An emotionally exhausting episode!  The actress playing Anne was superb in her desperation to save herself and then her resignation that she was doomed was beautifully played.  I loved her final speech when she was standing on the gallows and we could see the circles under her eyes.

 

I do have to wonder what Jane Rochford thought she was accomplishing though--no man would ever want a woman who testified against their husband and who seemed to relish every moment of it.

 

Thomas Cromwell also looked resigned throughout the episode--he was under the king's orders to help execute people he probably knew to be innocent of the charges against them,  especially George and Anne's incest allegations.  That has to be stomach-turning work.

 

And if I were the Seymour family, after watching what happened to the Boleyns, I'd keep Jane as far away as I could from the king as I could.

[kieyra]

Good episode, not as good as I thought it would be, but good nonetheless.  I too, felt cheated at not seeing the four men get beheaded, Cromwell worked overtime to get these guys executed.  I thought they would have shown it with this voice over from Cromwell taken from the book (perhaps my favorite passage):

 

Look, he says: once you have exhausted the process of negotiation and compromise, one you have fixed on the destruction of an enemy, that destruction must be swift and it must be perfect. Before you even glance in his direction, you should have his name on a warrant, the ports blocked, his wife and friends bought, his heir under your protection, his money in your strong room and his dog running to your whistle. Before he wakes in the morning, you should have the axe in your hand.”

 

That being said, Anne's downfall was heartbreaking, I couldn't bear to look at her gazing up at the windows, on her way to the gallows, hoping for a glimpse of Henry suddenly having a change of heart.  I did enjoy young Gregory Cromwell giving Francis Bryan the stinkeye for relishing in Anne's demise.  But of course the most chilling was the Henry VIII bear hug at the end.

 

edited because I thought Francis Bryan was Richard Cromwell.

 

I've read the books so many times my memory is questionable, but I think they may have used that speech (which I also love) in an earlier episode. 

[sugarbaker design]

I do have to wonder what Jane Rochford thought she was accomplishing though--no man would ever want a woman who testified against their husband and who seemed to relish every moment of it.

 

Jane got her freedom and is in the King's good favor (we all know it doesn't last).  Those are two big accomplishments!

[Calamity Jane]

It probably shows my morbid streak, but I appreciated the French executioner and his attention to detail....taking off his shoes so he could quietly step behind Anne, him shouting to her so her head would be in the right position for his sword, his not making her suffer longer than she needed to (some executioners made real hash over decapitations and the victim did linger).  The job I would not have wanted (other than being queen, of course) was the women who had to clean up afterwards. 

 

It was really chilling to see Cromwell in action to get confessions out of the men.  He had his orders, of course, but it still made me feel cold inside (maybe because we have sanctioned torture in this country in a way that would make even Henry VIII pause).  Anyway, then there was his telling Anne, under his breath, to put her her arm down (presumably so her arm wouldn't cause a problem with a clean decapitation) -- a weird moment of concern over seeing one of his enemies so completely defeated.  I thought the actress playing Anne did an excellent job of those last moments.  Anne was probably by nature a flirtatious woman (no doubt why Henry was attracted to her to begin with--men tend to want women other men want) but she was doomed by circumstances not completely within her control (and she didn't really seem to realize how deep the hole was until she was standing at the bottom of it). 

 

Quite a series.  Too bad we have to wait for the rest but I don't think I have to be afraid of forgetting what went on before when it is finally able to be released.

 

As for why some characters are not seen....since the story is Cromwell's and from his point of view, they had no reason to detail the story of all the characters.  That seemed quite reasonable to me.

The writers did a terrific job all the way through emphasizing Anne's French upbringing, even to giving her a bit of an accent, rolling her r's, saying "Cremuel" instead of Cromwell, etc.  The manners of the French court, as noted above, were vastly different from the more prudish behavior expected in England (the Puritan ethic a little before its time, I guess), and the coquetry that was readily condoned in France did not translate well to Henry's court.  Just one of the many, many things that made it pretty easy to accuse her.  

 

I seem to remember that beheading with a sword was considered more humane, but there weren't many who could do it; hence the need to import someone from France.  Perhaps his sword was made of Valyrian steel??  ;-)

[Calamity Jane]

An emotionally exhausting episode!  The actress playing Anne was superb in her desperation to save herself and then her resignation that she was doomed was beautifully played.  I loved her final speech when she was standing on the gallows and we could see the circles under her eyes.

 

I do have to wonder what Jane Rochford thought she was accomplishing though--no man would ever want a woman who testified against their husband and who seemed to relish every moment of it.

 

Thomas Cromwell also looked resigned throughout the episode--he was under the king's orders to help execute people he probably knew to be innocent of the charges against them,  especially George and Anne's incest allegations.  That has to be stomach-turning work.

 

And if I were the Seymour family, after watching what happened to the Boleyns, I'd keep Jane as far away as I could from the king as I could.

But the Seymours didn't care about women at all, only about power, and they saw Jane as their road to being the power behind the throne.  They kept it up for years and years.  They were pretty horrible during Edward VI's reign, and then when Thomas, I think it was, was married to Henry's last widow (Katherine Parr), they had Elizabeth living with them, and he did everything he could to make it so Elizabeth would eventually have to marry him.  Or just compromise her, who knows.  They were a pretty scummy lot. 

[Constantinople]

So far I've found this series a little unsatisfying.

 

Does Cromwell believe in religious reform or not?  Because most religious reformers thought that, short of the pope, Wolsey was the embodiment of the corrupt Church they were trying to reform.  It's one thing to have the Cromwell feel some sense of gratitude to Wolsey, it's another to wait half a dozen years to exact revenge on the Cardinal's behalf over a play that exactly expressed the religious sentiments that Cromwell allegedly shares.

 

I'm pleased at least that Cromwell was't so whitewashed that Norris called Cromwell on his bullshit since Mark Smeaton never did anything to Cromwell.

[ulkis]

I definitely thought last week's episode was the best of the season. This episode was fine but it didn't grab me like last week. Claire Foy turned in a really good performance.

[jjj]

Agree that the fifth episode was the most gripping -- and I think the sixth would have benefitted from being two episodes, with more time on the five accused men and then Anne's self-denial that she was really under arrest. 

 

The French executioner and sword was supposed to be a quicker execution with less chance of a mishap.  The five men were executed with a block and axe, and the first one needed several attempts before the execution was complete.  It is appalling to read about the frequency of these events, and speed of trials and execution within a few days.  As posters have said in other threads, I would stay far away from the seats of power in these years.  Same in the mid-1600s, when the king and many other noblemen were executed in this way at the end of the civil war. 

[kitmerlot1213]

Jane got her freedom and is in the King's good favor (we all know it doesn't last).  Those are two big accomplishments!

 

I get that Jane wasn't overly fond of either George or Anne but wasn't it every woman's goal to make a good marriage?  Didn't Jane's remaining single really put her on the low end of the political totem pole, especially in the Boleyn family?  And Jane was in the king's favor but she had to know that would turn on a dime.  I would also guess that if the king wants you to lie about your husband and sister in law who also happens to be his wife, then you do it.

 

 

But the Seymours didn't care about women at all, only about power, and they saw Jane as their road to being the power behind the throne.  They kept it up for years and years.  They were pretty horrible during Edward VI's reign, and then when Thomas, I think it was, was married to Henry's last widow (Katherine Parr), they had Elizabeth living with them, and he did everything he could to make it so Elizabeth would eventually have to marry him.  Or just compromise her, who knows.  They were a pretty scummy lot. 

 

I remember reading about that--Thomas would grab Elizabeth when she was still in her bed and in her nightgown and he'd start tickling her and poor Katherine Parr had to pretend that there was nothing unseemly about it because she married the jackass.  Didn't someone from the Howard family finally step in and get her out of there before Elizabeth could be compromised?

[sugarbaker design]

Didn't Jane's remaining single really put her on the low end of the political totem pole, especially in the Boleyn family?

 

Absolutely, but I don't think the political totem pole was what Jane was thinking about.  She had two options:  marriage or employment.  After effectively consigning her brother and sister-in-law to the executioner's blade, she was assured a position in the King's household.  She was later a lady-in-waiting for Catherine Howard, it didn't end well.

Edited May 11, 2015 by sugarbaker design

[Calamity Jane]

So far I've found this series a little unsatisfying.

 

Does Cromwell believe in religious reform or not?  Because most religious reformers thought that, short of the pope, Wolsey was the embodiment of the corrupt Church they were trying to reform.  It's one thing to have the Cromwell feel some sense of gratitude to Wolsey, it's another to wait half a dozen years to exact revenge on the Cardinal's behalf over a play that exactly expressed the religious sentiments that Cromwell allegedly shares.

 

I'm pleased at least that Cromwell was't so whitewashed that Norris called Cromwell on his bullshit since Mark Smeaton never did anything to Cromwell.

I think some mistakes have been made in translating the book to the screen (and I say this without having read the book).  By necessity, a book tells us a lot more than a TV show/movie has to, simply because the author has to tell us who says what, who enters the room, etc.  And it's pretty usual to give us more of the main character's interior monologue, as well.  Visual media excel at showing, as opposed to telling, but sometimes we need a little more telling to get the gist.  

 

The screen adaptation makes a lot of assumptions about our ability to identify and remember lots and lots of characters, which is hard enough for those of us who know the history pretty well -- it must be baffling for anyone who knows less about it.  We're left to interpret so much about Cromwell's reactions, beliefs, wishes, hopes, etc.  I think to feel really satisfied I would need a few more breadcrumbs and less assumption I had read and memorized the book.  (I feel a little bit the same way about Game of Thrones, by the way).  

Edited May 11, 2015 by Calamity Jane

[M. Darcy]

 

Okay, this is going to be a stupid question, but where was Mary Boleyn?

Its not stupid - they never said!  When Mary got married and pregnant by William Stafford, she was kicked out of Court.  Either to help the family or revenge on Mary (history is divided) , Anne adopted as her ward Mary's son (her son by either William Carey or Henry VIII). I believe that Mary's daughter was with Anne at the Tower at end to help support her aunt.

Edited May 11, 2015 by M. Darcy

[hardy har]

I was behind on a bunch of shows and wound up mainlining the last 4. Great series. I loved how . . . still it was, if that makes any sense. Damn, I felt like I was watching a mafia movie when Cromwell started in on the confessions, especially poor Mark. Remember everyone: it's not torture if your emotions and psychological state are being targeted! I loved that we could tell that Cromwell was under orders, but (as Henry said) that man is a Viper. There have been a handfull of scenes throughout the series when he did something that literally made me say "Goddamn, you are a bastard!" out loud while I'm watching. At the end when Henry gave him that hug all I could think was that I'm not going to feel bad about what happens to him down the road.

 

Great work by Claire Foy as well. I thought it was pretty amazing that Anne was such a horrible and vindictive person and I still felt awful for her in the last episode. It was just so . . . wrong on every conceivable level. Same goes for the 4 men. Just terrible.

 

Just a heads up: If this was the first time anyone here has seen Claire Foy in anything, try to get you hands on Little Dorrit. She's amazing in it and plays a character who is, basically the polar opposite of Anne Boleyn.

[ulkis]

When they had Anne on the scaffold and then cut to Cromwell, I actually thought they skipped Anne's death. I actually thought that would have been kind of interesting, to just go straight to Cromwell reflecting afterwards.

[MichelleAK]

While I found the series entertaining, I think it suffered by trying to cover both books in just 6 hours.  It really showed this last episode; lots of interesting (to me) book scenes were left out, including attempting to have Anne's/Henry's marriage nullified by bringing Henry Percy's claimed "betrothal" back into the picture, which might have saved Anne's life; showing Jane Seymour preparing to be queen (including a great scene with her family changing out her head piece from the French to the old-style gable); Cromwell saving Wyatt's head from the block; and Cromwell's discussion with Anne's father and brother about trying to get her to step down/go into a nunnery.  A couple of more hours would have given the story a bit of room to breathe.

 

I did feel Foy did a good job this last episode, especially her final moments before her death. 

 

All in all, I'm going to stick to re-reading the books, rather than rewatching the series.

[jjj]

 showing Jane Seymour preparing to be queen (including a great scene with her family changing out her head piece from the French to the old-style gable); Cromwell saving Wyatt's head from the block; and Cromwell's discussion with Anne's father and brother about trying to get her to step down/go into a nunnery.  

Yes, they really skimped on the "Jane prepares to be Queen" subplot-- and that head piece pinning would have been riveting.  Yes, also to seeing Cromwell arrest Wyatt in order to save him (it worked).  And I forget if the book mentions that Henry and Jane were betrothed two days after Anne's execution -- so Jane was definitely lady "in waiting".  She was the tool of her family, but still it would have added a dimension to see her getting ready to take Anne's place as Anne was heading to the scaffold. 

[kitmerlot1213]

Absolutely, but I don't think the political totem pole was what Jane was thinking about.  She had two options:  marriage or employment.  After effectively consigning her brother and sister-in-law to the executioner's blade, she was assured a position in the King's household.  She was later a lady-in-waiting for Catherine Howard, it didn't end well.

 

Ah, now I understand--Jane was actually securing her future by getting a position in the king's household.  A nice try I'm sure but then she went nuts when started helping Catherine Howard to cheat.  Probably by that time, she was just done with all of the intrigue.  I know I'd have a headache dealing with the court's machinations. :):)

[Quilt Fairy]

I seem to remember that beheading with a sword was considered more humane, but there weren't many who could do it; hence the need to import someone from France.

That's what I remember, too, it was really a kindness to Anne. Also - and I only know this from last night's episode and a little bit of Wikipedia - the traditional punishment for treason by a woman was burning. So whether it was due to Cromwell or Henry, beheading was a much better death.

 

I was a little let down by this final episode, it seemed like such an odd place to end. Maybe it makes more sense if you know there is going to be a third book that I assume will take Cromwell's story to it's conclusion. It seemed as if the entire episode was Anne as Dead Queen Walking, and not much else. Knowing how many of the characters Henry would eventually have executed made things rather creepy.

[Dirtybubble]

That's what I remember, too, it was really a kindness to Anne. Also - and I only know this from last night's episode and a little bit of Wikipedia - the traditional punishment for treason by a woman was burning. So whether it was due to Cromwell or Henry, beheading was a much better death.

 

I was just about to say this as well.  Remember the poor man in episode 2 (I think) that was tortured, whipped, AND burned at the stake?  I would guess that is the most awful way to die and beheading (especially with a sharp axe) is the most humane way to go.  I had read that Henry had pity on both his wives who were beheaded and was sure to have the blade especially sharp for them; what a swell guy.

 

Whew line em' up and knock em' out huh.  Actually I'm kinda glad we didn't see all the executions taken place.  Maybe PBS thought it would be too grisly to see one after the other after the other die.  It would have been a little too much for my sensitive tummy =(.

 

[tootsie]

A Jane Rochford biographer somewhere (sorry; cannot recall name) said that the woman engaged in "pathological meddling," which would explain why she didn 't learn any kind of a lesson from the AB interlude but repeated her intrusive malice to her own destruction with H8's wife #5. Perhaps it really was - or became? - a kind of mental disorder. Why else would she continue behavior that teetered her on the edge of disaster? A non-medical kind of Munchausen Syndrome, maybe? (I've worked with a few people that seemed similarly to enjoy stirring a pot of malicious mischief simply for mischief's sake, though I wonder if the behavior didn't start much more innocently & then became a kind of addiction.) When JR tried something in the same line with H8's wife #5, she got caught in the net herself but she was apparently an intelligent woman. Did her miserable marriage motivate her to play with fire and hope only other people got burned (so to speak)? I thought the actress that played her in WH somehow always managed to show the character's bitterness simmering just below her surface, a flashing red light: Attention!!! FEAR. THIS. WOMAN. Of all the characters in this superb drama, she was the one about whom I was most ambivalent: sometimes appalled, sometimes sympathetic, but always fascinated. O Lady, what makes you tick?

[sugarbaker design]

Why else would she continue behavior that teetered her on the edge of disaster?

 

Because she was a 16th century shit-stirring drama queen!

[attica]

Yeah, that doesn't puzzle me much. Because women are socialized to be carers and nurturers to the exclusion of almost all else, there are very few avenues for them to work out their aggressions and competitiveness (which they aren't even supposed to have, for pete's sake). So they often choose such back-door methods when they want to bring down their rivals. Jane is like the Rachel McAdams character in Mean Girls: if she'd only been given a lacrosse team to play on, history might've been different! 

[Patrizio]

Enjoyed the series, but Cromwell was not well cast. Too elegant.  Still waiting to see Henry8 portrayed as he really was at that part of his life-bald and turning to fat.

[kieyra]

I get that Jane wasn't overly fond of either George or Anne but wasn't it every woman's goal to make a good marriage? Didn't Jane's remaining single really put her on the low end of the political totem pole, especially in the Boleyn family? And Jane was in the king's favor but she had to know that would turn on a dime. I would also guess that if the king wants you to lie about your husband and sister in law who also happens to be his wife, then you do it.

I remember reading about that--Thomas would grab Elizabeth when she was still in her bed and in her nightgown and he'd start tickling her and poor Katherine Parr had to pretend that there was nothing unseemly about it because she married the jackass. Didn't someone from the Howard family finally step in and get her out of there before Elizabeth could be compromised?

Katharine Parr caught them cuddling and she had Elizabeth removed to another household for everyone's sake. Unfortunately I've read so many fictional and non-fictional treatments that it becomes muddled, but I believe Katharine was pissed off at both of them (today we wouldn't blame a 14 yo, but Thomas Seymour did the "she started it!" maneuver). But she wanted to protect everyone's reputation, especially Elizabeth's, who had the most to lose. I believe Elizabeth and Katharine were back to being cordial before Katharine died in childbirth.

(Then Seymour tried to marry Elizabeth later, which he lacked the station and authorization to do, and the whole original mess came out in the end anyway, and Elizabeth had to do serious damage control. Seymour was beheaded. And this is why the whole era is so fascinating. Hundreds of little stories like this that are better than any soap opera.)

Edited May 11, 2015 by kieyra

[ulkis]

Enjoyed the series, but Cromwell was not well cast. Too elegant.  Still waiting to see Henry8 portrayed as he really was at that part of his life-bald and turning to fat.

 

I feel like most Henrys have been portrayed as fat. Don't think I've seen a balding one though.

[LuciaMia]

Now, when they locked Mark Smeaton overnight in that room, it was enough for him to see all the instruments of torture to break him down. But at first, when they mentioned 'Phantom' I thought they were trying to spook him with a possible ghost. Would the 'Phantom' have been the name of one of the devices?

[jjj]

In the book, he was locked in a room with various feathered costumes, and told there were phantoms in there, so spent the night terrified that the phantoms kept touching him. (Imagine being locked in a pitch-black room with things scurrying past you in the air.)  It is more evocative in Mantel's prose!  I think they could have come up with a better title, given that they did not explain all that in the episode. 

 

I also read on the NY TImes comments on this episode, that PBS.org has additional scenes on its site -- but based on what I saw, it is only a few scenes, maybe from different episodes?  If anyone can link, I'll be happy to learn more. 

Edited May 11, 2015 by jjj

[susannot]

Agree with Dirtybubble. I left the room during Anne's agonizingly prolonged execution.. Could not have endured the 5 men in a row prior to her, especially poor Mark, whom I believe was only guilty of innocent boasting, as even Cromwell said.

[kieyra]

Taking the topic of executions to the "other works" thread.

[nara]

So far I've found this series a little unsatisfying.

 

Does Cromwell believe in religious reform or not?  Because most religious reformers thought that, short of the pope, Wolsey was the embodiment of the corrupt Church they were trying to reform.  It's one thing to have the Cromwell feel some sense of gratitude to Wolsey, it's another to wait half a dozen years to exact revenge on the Cardinal's behalf over a play that exactly expressed the religious sentiments that Cromwell allegedly shares.

 

I'm pleased at least that Cromwell was't so whitewashed that Norris called Cromwell on his bullshit since Mark Smeaton never did anything to Cromwell.

I think he described it himself when he said, "I am a banker." Religion did not really seem to be a motivator for him.

 

Agree that the fifth episode was the most gripping -- and I think the sixth would have benefitted from being two episodes, with more time on the five accused men and then Anne's self-denial that she was really under arrest. 

 

The French executioner and sword was supposed to be a quicker execution with less chance of a mishap.  The five men were executed with a block and axe, and the first one needed several attempts before the execution was complete.  It is appalling to read about the frequency of these events, and speed of trials and execution within a few days.  As posters have said in other threads, I would stay far away from the seats of power in these years.  Same in the mid-1600s, when the king and many other noblemen were executed in this way at the end of the civil war. 

I remember being surprised that the guillotine was named for a doctor, until I learned about how painful and cruel the axe executions were--and how often they were botched. Naturally, a doctor would want to reduce suffering.

 

I was behind on a bunch of shows and wound up mainlining the last 4. Great series. I loved how . . . still it was, if that makes any sense. Damn, I felt like I was watching a mafia movie when Cromwell started in on the confessions, especially poor Mark. Remember everyone: it's not torture if your emotions and psychological state are being targeted! I loved that we could tell that Cromwell was under orders, but (as Henry said) that man is a Viper. There have been a handfull of scenes throughout the series when he did something that literally made me say "Goddamn, you are a bastard!" out loud while I'm watching. At the end when Henry gave him that hug all I could think was that I'm not going to feel bad about what happens to him down the road.

 

Great work by Claire Foy as well. I thought it was pretty amazing that Anne was such a horrible and vindictive person and I still felt awful for her in the last episode. It was just so . . . wrong on every conceivable level. Same goes for the 4 men. Just terrible.

 

It's amazing how someone who has been portrayed as such a shrill bitch throughout the series can evoke my pity so much.  (I cried during her execution.)  A real tribute to Claire Foy.  Also, this episode really made me hate Cromwell--no matter how sympathetic they tried to make him in the end. 

 

I also wished that they had not skipped the men's executions.  If I remember correctly, they were supposed to be drawn, hanged, and quartered-- simply having their heads cut off was a mercy of sorts.  This whole part would have been great drama.

 

BTW, I don't remember seeing Henry Percy as one of Anne's judges.  Why cast Harry Lloyd and not use him in this crucial scene?

[MisterGlass]

Watching Anne walk to the gallows, and seeing her blind folded and shaking in terror also made me forget how much I disliked the character.  This was such a stark episode, and to have that five minutes from the end was crushing.  And then the aftermath of the execution...Francis Bryan was a piece of work.  I thought for a moment Gregory Cromwell was going to be sick.

 

I agree with other posters, Cromwell's complicity in all this, even if it was to save himself, goes way beyond what can be justified.  He should have retired to Italy, post haste.

[ulkis]

I think he described it himself when he said, "I am a banker." Religion did not really seem to be a motivator for him.

 

I don't know much about Cromwell but I wouldn't be surprised if he was more religious than he was portrayed here. Cromwell seems suspiciously modern to me in this series, but like I said, I haven't really researched him.

 

I think it would be hard not to feel for Anne, no matter how she acted previously. Ultimately, she was killed really because she didn't have a son fast enough to please the king.

[duVerre]

 

Okay, this is going to be a stupid question, but where was Mary Boleyn? She marries beneath her at some point, but what episode was that supposed to be in, because I feel like the US version must of cut it?

 

 

I also read on the NY TImes comments on this episode, that PBS.org has additional scenes on its site -- but based on what I saw, it is only a few scenes, maybe from different episodes?  If anyone can link, I'll be happy to learn more.

 

I can't see any moving images on the PBS site from where I am in Canada (licensing agreements prevent it). But luckily, Youtube does just as well, Just go there and search "Wolf Hall deleted scenes"... there are a handful of them.  By far the best is a scene that was cut from tonight's episode showing Mary Boleyn's departure from court. I think it was cut out for the original British broadcast, not by PBS.

[nara]

I don't know much about Cromwell but I wouldn't be surprised if he was more religious than he was portrayed here. Cromwell seems suspiciously modern to me in this series, but like I said, I haven't really researched him.

 

I think it would be hard not to feel for Anne, no matter how she acted previously. Ultimately, she was killed really because she didn't have a son fast enough to please the king.

Agree on both counts.  Regarding his religious beliefs, I always am a little skeptical of fictionalized accounts of history because they have to take a specific point of view --that's what makes them so compelling.  It's hard to know what's historically accurate and what's literary license.

[Notwisconsin]

Fun fact: Gregory Cromwell was Jane Seymore's brother-in-law. All in all, it was an excellent depiction of an event that has been portrayed ad nauseum.

[Dirtybubble]

Watching Anne walk to the gallows, and seeing her blind folded and shaking in terror also made me forget how much I disliked the character.  This was such a stark episode, and to have that five minutes from the end was crushing.  And then the aftermath of the execution...Francis Bryan was a piece of work.  I thought for a moment Gregory Cromwell was going to be sick.

 

IKR?!  When she was handing out the coins, her constantly looking up to see if the king maybe, just maybe would have pity on her--GAH I couldn't take it; I was crying for a woman I despised just 30 mins earlier.  It speaks volumes of the actress to produce such a roller coaster of emotions from the viewer.  Yeah I would have been sick too. 

 

Something interesting I noticed about Cromwell during the execution--did you see him grab the arm of the young man standing next to him?  Was that sympathy, regret?  I can't imagine he simply didn't like the sight of blood.  Cromwell certainly looked like death warmed over as he walked to the king at the end.  Bro hug after all this?  I think that's the turning point for T.C.; there was something very telling as he viewed the blood on the hands of the ladies tending to Anne's body.  The blood was literally & figuratively on his hands. 

 

BTW--having to put A.B. headless body in that sad, simply coffin & then wrap her head in the cloth had to be the WORST.JOB.EVER!!!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2015 by Dirtybubble

[sugarbaker design]

Something interesting I noticed about Cromwell during the execution--did you see him grab the arm of the young man standing next to him?  Was that sympathy, regret?

 

 

That was his son Gregory.  I don't think it was regret, I would imagine TC would think it was something that had to be done.  Sympathy?  Maybe.  Sympathetic and regretful aren't two adjectives that come to mind when I think of Cromwell.  I think the main feeling was that his son was being exposed to such savagery from the actual execution and from callous remarks being made by Francis Bryan.