S05.E05: Kill The Boy

[Hecate7]

I had the same concern regarding Ramsay and Reek.

 

Maybe they are trying to work in the starving first wife angle with the super-thin Myranda

I would think that Sansa would know that Ramsay is a bastard as she seemed to pay attention to her Septa and probably learned who all of her father's bannermen and their kin were.  But I agree that it was hard to tell what Sansa was trying to do in this scene - maybe she was truly put off by what Fat Walda said and just reacted to it.

 

Aw, I feel badly for Fat Walda.  She seems sweet and not as beaten down as most of the Freys always seem to be (to the point where she is blossoming as Roose's Lady, which really says a lot about the Freys), she's trying to host the most awkward dinner ever, and then Ramsay has to trot out Theon to make it even more ridiculous.  That whole scene was darkly funny.

 

Sansa and Stannis is brilliant. Of course Stannis is even older than Tyrion or Littlefinger, but it's still brilliant. Unfortunately, Stannis and Danaerys is even more brilliant, on two levels. And they have so much in common!

 

I feel badly for Fat Walda too. What do you say to the sister of the guy your husband stabbed? That your Dad has on display outside the castle at home? It is very awkward.

 

Probably bastards were not covered in Septa Mordane's classes, as it was as much her job to be a moral authority and role model as it was to teach the girls anything. Besides, Ramsey WAS a bastard. He's not anymore. He's been legitimized.

[polyhymnia]

They need a Westerosi version of Emily Post to navigate all of these social pitfalls.  What to bring to dinner?  Who sits where?  There is a good Frey pie joke in here, somewhere.

 

What I am thinking (re: Sansa knowing Ramsay is a bastard) is that she would have at least known who the heir of the Dreadfort was and that Roose had no heir, if that makes sense.

 

I'm loving what they're doing with Hizdahr too. He was such a non-entity in the books, whereas in the show, he's quickly becoming my favorite character in Dany's plotline. Joel Fry is doing such an incredible job with the role. His performance hits a perfect balance of sympathetic, suspect, funny and yet still rather annoying that works really well for Hizdahr. You feel for the guy, yet he's still sort of punchable in exactly the way that extremely privileged people who insist on remaining stubbornly oblivious to the full extent of their privilege always are. There's just a hint of that aggrieved undergraduate "but I'm a liberal, and besides, wealthy white Western men have suffered TOO!" whine in his tone that is absolutely pitch-perfect. Love him.

 

 

I liked his honesty in his cell.  Yes, I was trying to be brave in the face of my imminent roasting but now that I have had time to think about it, that sort of bravery is over-rated.  I want to live!!  What?  As your husband?  Oh crap.  What is option 2?

[Luciaphile]

What I am thinking (re: Sansa knowing Ramsay is a bastard) is that she would have at least known who the heir of the Dreadfort was and that Roose had no heir, if that makes sense.

As the Boltons were stated in the DVD materials to be the second largest house in the North, I agree. This seems like something Sansa would know. 

[screamin]

If someone in your camp has the potential to cause unrest, and you can't hurt them, you make sure they don't feel the need to cause said unrest. Your argument has a confirmation bias, you're already scared the whole washer lady thing is a ruse and you're reasoning your way backwards to how it would be possible. As it stands, the Boltons doing anything bad to Sansa means undermining their own position, and they have no allies or backing. The reason they're not being attacked is because people don't want to risk Sansa'a safety. It makes zero sense to spook her, and Roose is aware of that. And as this episode demonstrated, Roose knows how to control Ramsay.

 

 

It didn't make sense for Joffrey to beat Sansa and threaten her life when she was his hostage in King's Landing, but he did that anyway, and Cersei didn't control him despite undoubtedly thinking she knew how. It didn't make sense for Aunt Lysa to try to kill Sansa in punishment for LF kissing her, but she tried and almost succeeded despite LF thinking HE had Lysa under control. Sure, it's rational to think the Boltons aren't going to hurt Sansa because she's valuable, but LF by his own admission doesn't know much about Ramsey OR his relationship with his dad, and therefore has no evidence to believe that Ramsey IS the rational sort who would treat Sansa wisely OR that Roose can keep a handle on him if he isn't. So, for the writing team to decide that LF just happily posts off to KL with his guards, leaving Sansa completely in in the power of the Boltons under the Polyannaish assumption that those wise folk won't harm her - IMO, that DOES make LF look a lot stupider than the smart man he's supposed to be, and is a sign of deficient writing, IMO.

 

...That's exactly what I see happening over and over again with the tension between people who are just enjoying the show and people upset about the adaptation. I feel like people who know the books, and know them well, have studied them, re-read them, etc, keep making the worst assumption possible and then reason backwards to show how it's possible or plausible. The thought process is, "D&D are horrible people who hate women, children, puppies, and rainbows whose sole goal in life is to bastardize the brilliance of the pure cinnamon roll that is George RR Martin and his books which aren't even remotely rapey, misogynistic or horrible. Therefore, D&D's terrible fanfiction show is going to have Sansa brutally raped by Ramsay."

 

Speaking strictly for myself, I didn't say Ramsey was going to rape Sansa, nor do I recognize my own thought process in the above. As I said above, I do think there are reasons for judging the writing somewhat poorly. And another reason that I feel the writing is deficient (as I mentioned in my original post) is that having an ally suddenly drop into Sansa's lap out of nowhere - instead of having her seek out allies and make her own decisions about whether they are trustworthy or not - is bad writing. It makes Sansa look too passive, once again waiting idly for rescuers to come to her, trusting blindly when they do. She's been doing too much of that for too long, she needs to start thinking for herself and making her own moves.

 

Of course, I don't know if this passivity originates with the showrunners or in TWOW. Maybe in GRRM's book Sansa is just as passive, sitting with her hands folded letting disasters happen to her until some deus ex machina shows up to rescue her, and the showrunners are just following GRRM's cue. But if that's the case, I would still think it was bad writing on GRRM's part.

 

Yes, he could hurt some innocent stand in but Sansa has been tortured and tormented herself, other people being tormented is not going to be her breaking point. If anything, she will figure out they can't lay a finger on her and that's why they are using a proxy

 

 

I didn't say it would break Sansa. But I don't think it would be a trivial matter for Ramsey to peel a victim like a grape in front of Sansa, either for her or for the viewers. At least, I don't know about you, but I know my stomach wouldn't take kindly to it.

Edited May 13, 2015 by screamin

[nodorothyparker]

“I don’t want to marry you,” Hizdahr wailed. “You had my father crucified!”

He's Sansa Stark through the looking glass really, isn't he? His father was unjustly executed by a cruel and illegitimate tyrant who is now forcing him to marry her.

I know I'm supposed to be sympathizing with Dany here, but as is so often the case with me and Dany, I'm just...really, really not. I sort of want Hizdahr to shove her off a battlement, frankly. It would be a much kinder death than the ones she keeps doling out to people every time she gets upset or frustrated about something.

This is brilliant. I never would have made the Sansa-Hizdahr parallel on my own but now I love it so much I can't unsee it. The guy's narrowly missed being tortured and murdered. He's locked in a cell and now the illegitimate usurper who killed his father without trial and clearly doesn't give a damn about his family or culture or traditions has just announced that he WILL be marrying her as a pawn. Where's the fanbase demanding justice for Hizdahr?

But I'm not much of a Dany sympathizer either. I feel like I'm supposed to want to be and I'm clearly prodded to be, especially with the constant fluffing Varys was doing in the first episodes this season, but I'm just not. She talks a great game about justice and ending slavery, yada yada yada, but she doesn't seem to be able to translate that into effective ruling. At all. I mean, when the people you so triumphantly freed announce they'd rather go back to their old masters, thanks, as we saw last season, that should be a pretty big tipoff that you're not quite the great liberator you style yourself as.

Edited May 13, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[Hanahope]

given the hero edit Stannis has been getting ever since the merge, he's almost certainly either going to the Final Four or being set up as our next tragic blindside.

 

Oh definitely. :)

[benteen]

I never thought of Hizdahr being the male Sansa but you all are right, he really is.  All I know is he has an excellent reason for hating Dany, who has been very Mad King with the way she hands out punishment.

[Paws]

Tonight on rewatch I noticed Shireen asking if Stannis would go into the crypt at winterfell to see the Kings. I wonder if it will be Stannis and Melisandre visiting the crypt, seeing Lyanna, and realizing that she is Jon Snows mother. Stannis knows the story of how things went down and knew Ned was too honorable to father a bastard, and this season's awesome, smarter Stannis is really on the ball.

I saw the stone men drop into the water but otherwise totally missed all the others hiding. Need to watch that part of the episode yet again!

[tennisgurl]

They're finally giving us awesome, smarter, grammatically corrector Stannis, and I could not be happier! One of my big adaptation complains has been the shows treatment of Stannis, but now it looks like they are on the road to recovery. I hoped this would happen now (The Stannis and Jon at the wall stuff was some of my favorite parts of the books), and its actually working out perfectly. Team Stannis!

 

I tend to cut Dany a lot of slack, maybe more than she deserves. I feel like she has really good intentions, and she is very good at inspiring people to great heights, but she is not super good at long term planning, or the more day to day aspects of ruling. She has no real training as to how to be a ruler, and she`s basically just running on a "I`m a Targ, and I have motherfucking dragons" ticket. Weirdly, I think her and Stannis would actually do a good job ruling together. Dany is the charismatic leader and idea woman, while Stannis can deal with the more boring, government parts of ruling, and has no problem making tough calls. On the other hand, their both CRAZY stubborn, so it might not end well. Plus, she would probably not be thrilled to work with a guy who helped fight against her father. Even if she has figured out the "The Mad King" was really not a term of endearment.  

 

 

"Thank heavens I finally get to live some place nice," Walda thinks to herself, as she wanders past the flayed bodies in the courtyard

Walda is probably just thrilled she never has to wear that stupid Frey hat ever again. I mean, the Bolton`s might be murderous, torturing monsters, but at least they know that those hats are tacky as hell. No one should be subjected to that kind of cruelty! 

Edited May 13, 2015 by tennisgurl

[GreyBunny]

Dany, like Robert, knows how to conquer but falls short in trying to govern, though at least Dany does try to govern, Robert just drank and wenched while others did the heavy lifting.

 

I don't feel sorry for Fat Walda, she seems very happy and thriving in that environment.  I love that in the books Bolton married her for money but grew fond of her anyway and she of him. They're a sweet couple in an American Horror Story kind of way.  I don't think Ramsay will threaten Walda but will probably go after the baby once its born.

[Advance35]

I don't think anyone can truly count on anything in Westeros.   LF believes Stannis will win in the battle for Winterfell but there have been some genuine surprises during the course of the Saga and I do think a time or two LF was surprised, though he has usually managed to turn such surprises to his favor.   The Boltons COULD win against Stannis and if so he wants to have an "in" with them.   He's looking to consolidate power outside of Kings Landing and the current Power Holders.   The Vale and The North are apparently valuable and formidable if they go hand in hand.   The Vale has the only army other than Dorne that hasn't been depleted to some degree by the war.

 

I also found myself liking Fat Walda despite myself, but I refuse to get attached to her because if Ramsay decides he wants to bring down the curtain on her, I don't think anyone in the castle will stop him.  I do think Fat Walda was the "nicest" person at that table as I'm one of the people that think Sansa has truly hardened since she left Kings Landing.   I think her turning point was Lysa Arryn flipped out on her during the lemon cakes scene in Season 4.

 

Iwon Rheon, Sophie Turner, Alfie Allen and Michael McEalloton have all been wonderful this season.

[nksarmi]

I find it hard to feel bad for Hizdahr in regards to Dany because as I recall, he relentlessly pursued her hand in marriage in the books, right?  Grant it, the show version of his character is very different than the book version, but I know he should not be opposed to this pairing for the very same reasons he wanted it in the books.  

 

Besides if we are going to parallel him, it would be much closer to Sansa's marriage to Tyrion which really wasn't all that bad for a match for her - he would have protected her at least.  Far safer with him than a Bolton! 

 

I think Dany needs to see the masters as something other than slavers and Hizdahr will help her with that. Right now, she can't look past the sins of their culture.  It's a good lesson to learn before she goes back to Westerous and deals with all the high lords.  After all, those poor people of Westerous are likely not that much better off than the slaves she has been freeing.

[Avaleigh]

Dany, like Robert, knows how to conquer but falls short in trying to govern, though at least Dany does try to govern, Robert just drank and wenched while others did the heavy lifting.

I don't feel sorry for Fat Walda, she seems very happy and thriving in that environment. I love that in the books Bolton married her for money but grew fond of her anyway and she of him. They're a sweet couple in an American Horror Story kind of way. I don't think Ramsay will threaten Walda but will probably go after the baby once its born.

Unless Ramsay does something awful to her, I won't feel sorry for Walda either. Her lot is certainly a lot better than most and she seems happy. I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt regarding her thoughtless comment to Sansa about Sansa supposedly being in a strange place but I thought it was weird that she looked almost miffed at Sansa for checking her like that. I certainly don't think that Sansa will be able to look to her as an eventual friend.

If Ramsay killed everyone at Winterfell during his takeover, people like Old Nan and whoever else was left behind, how did this old lady survive that? Could people like Nan possibly be alive after all? I also think it's odd that Sansa has to continue to dye her hair.

Tonight on rewatch I noticed Shireen asking if Stannis would go into the crypt at winterfell to see the Kings. I wonder if it will be Stannis and Melisandre visiting the crypt, seeing Lyanna, and realizing that she is Jon Snows mother. Stannis knows the story of how things went down and knew Ned was too honorable to father a bastard, and this season's awesome, smarter Stannis is really on the ball.

Oh man, I kind of need for this to happen. Edited May 13, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Constantinople]

All I know is that Walda's dialogue per episode just went through the roof.

 

Her first episode was last season.  She said "Hello" to Ramsay after Roose introduced each other.  That's it.  One word.  That's all she said in all of Season 4 so she still holds the season record for fewest spoken words (not including 0).

 

Her second episode that I recall was earlier this season when Sansa arrived in Winterfell.  Walda was part of the arrival party, but said nothing, so she was down to half a word per episode.  Even that unnamed woman who told Sansa "The North Remembers" had more lines of dialogue.  I thought this was no looking good.

 

But in this episode Walda had 23 words, or 24 if you think of "We're" as 2 words.  So she's skyrocketed to 8 or 8 1/3 words per episode, i.e, more than 16 times what it used to be before this episode.

[fantique]

It didn't make sense for Joffrey to beat Sansa and threaten her life when she was his hostage in King's Landing, but he did that anyway, and Cersei didn't control him despite undoubtedly thinking she knew how. It didn't make sense for Aunt Lysa to try to kill Sansa in punishment for LF kissing her, but she tried and almost succeeded despite LF thinking HE had Lysa under control. Sure, it's rational to think the Boltons aren't going to hurt Sansa because she's valuable, but LF by his own admission doesn't know much about Ramsey OR his relationship with his dad, and therefore has no evidence to believe that Ramsey IS the rational sort who would treat Sansa wisely OR that Roose can keep a handle on him if he isn't. So, for the writing team to decide that LF just happily posts off to KL with his guards, leaving Sansa completely in in the power of the Boltons under the Polyannaish assumption that those wise folk won't harm her - IMO, that DOES make LF look a lot stupider than the smart man he's supposed to be, and is a sign of deficient writing, IMO.

 

 

Speaking strictly for myself, I didn't say Ramsey was going to rape Sansa, nor do I recognize my own thought process in the above. As I said above, I do think there are reasons for judging the writing somewhat poorly. And another reason that I feel the writing is deficient (as I mentioned in my original post) is that having an ally suddenly drop into Sansa's lap out of nowhere - instead of having her seek out allies and make her own decisions about whether they are trustworthy or not - is bad writing. It makes Sansa look too passive, once again waiting idly for rescuers to come to her, trusting blindly when they do. She's been doing too much of that for too long, she needs to start thinking for herself and making her own moves.

 

Of course, I don't know if this passivity originates with the showrunners or in TWOW. Maybe in GRRM's book Sansa is just as passive, sitting with her hands folded letting disasters happen to her until some deus ex machina shows up to rescue her, and the showrunners are just following GRRM's cue. But if that's the case, I would still think it was bad writing on GRRM's part.

 

 

I didn't say it would break Sansa. But I don't think it would be a trivial matter for Ramsey to peel a victim like a grape in front of Sansa, either for her or for the viewers. At least, I don't know about you, but I know my stomach wouldn't take kindly to it.

1) Citing the Joffrey/Cersei example shows how not likely it is. This is a Joffrey/Tywin parallel, and while Ramsay and Joffrey will surely rot in the same section of hell, there are differences here. The difference is Ramsay's status and position.

Roose is not a Cersei type of parent, he's a Tywin, and you know he clearly wished he could slap the shit out of Joffrey for his ridiculousness but couldn't because he's King and he should at least pretend to respect Joffrey? Well here we are in a similar situation what does Roose do? He shuts Ramsay's crazy down. Openly. Ramsay is an elevated bastard, he doesn't have the inherent assurance that anything goes like Joffrey had. He's still iffy about his position as Roose's son, so no he won't just do what he wants openly if he's scared of losing his appeal as an heir. Joffrey did stuff because no one else around him said no, well Roose says no and much more. It's not about making sense or rationality, it's about understanding people and how they work. If you were Ramsay what would you do to get what you want? Ramsay is more malleable and predictable than Joffrey because he's insecure. What do the Boltons want? Power, so if we know that about them, we can think about the type of stuff it would be organic in the story for them to do to get what they want. BTW, Lysa doing what she did made complete sense because it was clear whats he wanted was LF and she was extremely jealous of Cat. I hadn't read the books at the time but as soon as that lemon cake scene happened, I knew she would lose it at one point or another. Why? Because they had established who Lysa was and what she wanted. If the circumstances change then yes, the Boltons feeling more comfortable is organic and believable but as of right now, they're playing the game and close to losing which equals death, their desire to stay alive and prosper <ould be a good way to figure out what they would or would not do.

 

2) The writing is only deficient if it doesn't make sense in universe for the character. I love sassy Sansa, but let's not buy too much into LF's hype of her having completed her training, because she hasn't and it would be ridiculous if she did. She's still sussing out who to trust. I would find it extremely stupid of her to try this early in the game instead of making sure she knows everything about the people. She knows everything about the place, she has home advantage, why waste that plus by acting too quickly? In universe, it has been established that the North recognises the Starks as their rulers, it wouldn't make sense to have their king's sister back in the fold and not have people say discreetly "we know who the true rulers are and our allegiance is to you". Dany's entire storyline is a series of things dropping in her lap, and yet I don't hear anything about that. She happened to be given the last real dragon eggs in the world, she found someone in Qarth enamoured with her, one of the leaders of the Second sons clearly wanted to bone her instead of killing her. Why is no one complaining that it's bad writing for her and yet Sansa having support in her own home is an "ally drooping on her lap"? There is nothing less sudden/surprising than a Stark receiving people's support in Winterfell. Good writing doesn't mean the reader is enjoying themselves, it means that the work shows internal consistency and the reader understands how things are the way they are. Wanting to see Sansa as a badass is all good and well but that doesn't mean the story should be focused on only that. If this was a show about Sansa, sure, but in this show, the story is about everyone and how they intermingle, how they react to different situations they are put in. Showing the Boltons so confident and oblivious would ignore everything the story has built so far. Trust me, I was waving my BS flag way up high last week because the show had extremely low internal consistency. The actions of a lot of characters were nonsensical and just there for a gasp and to me that's bad writing.

 

3) Passive Sansa is not bad writing if that's the character that's established. A passive character in and of itself is not bad writing, passive people exist, why not passive characters? Heck, some book readers argue she's a great female character because she adheres to her society's rules and is content to wait for it. I tend to think that she's a great character regardless of her being active or not but I also don't think that all the people whose dreams are Queen Sansa endgame will get what they want...But who knows? Anyway, this is not her being passive, this is Sansa waiting to see how things unfold, what's the point of going around making noise if in three weeks (probably not accurate but... got a point to make) Stannis is coming and getting rid of her enemies for her? That's what smart people in ASOIAF do, they make sure that they get what they want with the minimal amount of damage. Playing nice and letting the Boltons rest on their laurels makes sure she has free reign of the castle and can use her home advantage well. If they felt like she is trying to sabotage them, they might have her followed or confined in a specific area. That's simply counter intuitive. Even at her cleverest moment, Sansa is more of a "let's set this up and see how it enfolds" kind of player, like when she confessed about her identity in the Vale. She always goes the letting her enemies underestimate her way. She didn't know the outcome but she knew she was at their mercy and who would they want to protect? Sansa Stark, not Alayne. Also, have you not read the books? Are you ok with being spoiled here?

 

4) Well, that would be an example of bad writing to me. If it doesn't leave a lasting impression on Sansa and is only there to increase the creep/gross factor, then it's really useless and shouldn't be in. Doesn't mean they won't do it, they have gone the easy gasp! route before but then I would just say that it's bad writing and is contradictory to everything they've set up. This goes back to my original comment about your argument, you're afraid it will happen because it would be gross and horrifying, fair enough and justifiable with this show. But that still means that your predictions/perceptions are then not based on what's actually on screen and more on the meta stuff. In story, right now, there is little reason for that lady to be a fake Stark supporter, unless we are going reverse occam's razor and going for the convoluted plan just to get 2 minutes of creepiness and adding to the overall feeling of despair and hopelessness.  But...preferences

 

Tonight on rewatch I noticed Shireen asking if Stannis would go into the crypt at winterfell to see the Kings. I wonder if it will be Stannis and Melisandre visiting the crypt, seeing Lyanna, and realizing that she is Jon Snows mother. Stannis knows the story of how things went down and knew Ned was too honorable to father a bastard, and this season's awesome, smarter Stannis is really on the ball.

I saw the stone men drop into the water but otherwise totally missed all the others hiding. Need to watch that part of the episode yet again!

That's one thing that bothered me last week. Because they slacked off on the whole RLJ build up, now they are dropping 1000 tonnes anvils and they're using weird people to point out the flaws in the official story. Stannis is not the kind of guy that would look beyond what the established fact is. In the context of the scene he clearly was saying that "a tavern slut" wasn't Ned's style but of course the viewers, who want to know who Jon's mother is, will go "huh...filing that away for later." Stannis doesn't and shouldn't care who Jon's mother is. He declined his offer, he likes him but he's of no use to him anymore. I could buy Mel sensing something and getting it because of her magic/R'hllor but Stannis figuring out would piss me off. If he didn't figure out about the twincest, I call BS on him figuring this out. On the surface the only fishy thing is that adultery was not Ned's style but westeros is full of hypocrites. AND there were extenuating circumstances, he was married out of the blue and immediately left to fight in a war for a year. The secrecy would probably make people think Jon's mother was a highborn woman but that's it. But because the focus on the crypts so much, there might be something hidden there. I hope it's just a bunch of letters or something.

[BlackberryJam]

As to Sansa's hair dye, if you've ever dyed your hair, you know you don't keep dying it unless you want the color to remain the same. So Sansa dyed it once and she has to either wait for it to grow out or scrub that stuff with lye soap to get the dye to fade. (Dish washing liquid in modern times will do it, but it will fucking kill your hair.) So this idea that she dyes her hair every day makes no sense. She doesn't "keep dying her hair." She's waiting for it to grow out or she just hasn't done the power wash of it yet. And really, as far as passage of time goes, we are only about 3 months or so from Tywin's death and her first dye job. She'd probably have some regrowth, but depending on how the dye is and how it washes, that might not even be visible yet.

Edited May 13, 2015 by BlackberryJam

[Avaleigh]

As to Sansa's hair dye, if you've ever dyed your hair, you know you don't keep dying it unless you want the color to remain the same. So Sansa dyed it once and she has to either wait for it to grow out or scrub that stuff with lye soap to get the dye to fade. (Dish washing liquid in modern times will do it, but it will fucking kill your hair.) So this idea that she dyes her hair every day makes no sense. She doesn't "keep dying her hair." She's waiting for it to grow out or she just hasn't done the power wash of it yet. And really, as far as passage of time goes, we are only about 3 months or so from Tywin's death and her first dye job. She'd probably have some regrowth, but depending on how the dye is and how it washes, that might not even be visible yet.

Yeah, my comment was because there should be plenty of red showing at this point and there isn't any so to me that suggests she's keeping it up. 

[BlackberryJam]

But should there? Visible regrowth is based on a lot of things, one being how fast your hair grows. Also this is a darkening dye, which may spread with each wash. if you blacken your hair with cheap, nasty hair dye, each time you wash a little comes out, but it gets washed back into the roots. The color doesn't just fade, it spreads. (Been there, done that.) There are a lot of things that can be nitpicked on the show, but the hair dye thing is just not one that makes a lot of sense. 

 

I'm always more disgusted by people wearing the same clothes over and over, I'm looking at you Night's Watch. 

 

I think they are doing a good job with Sansa's hair because she is no longer wearing those impossible hairstyles from KL. I think she's being shown much more as a Northern, Do-it-yourself woman like Catelyn rather than a Margaery or Cersei, it-takes-eight-people-to-do-my-hair woman.

[nksarmi]

fantique - I think Stannis' comment about "it not being Ned's style" wasn't about who could have been Jon's mother - I think it was about the fact that Ned was a "man of honor" and unlikely to break his wedding vows.  And that is something Stannis would have taken note of - especially in contrast to his brother Robert.  While we can watch that and translate it as "well who WAS Jon's mother?" then - I think it was meant to parallel that Jon is a man of honor who keeps his vows just like his father.  Of course, that does lead to well if Ned keeps his vows, maybe he isn't Jon's dad after all....

[Hecate7]

It didn't make sense for Joffrey to beat Sansa and threaten her life when she was his hostage in King's Landing, but he did that anyway, and Cersei didn't control him despite undoubtedly thinking she knew how. It didn't make sense for Aunt Lysa to try to kill Sansa in punishment for LF kissing her, but she tried and almost succeeded despite LF thinking HE had Lysa under control. Sure, it's rational to think the Boltons aren't going to hurt Sansa because she's valuable, but LF by his own admission doesn't know much about Ramsey OR his relationship with his dad, and therefore has no evidence to believe that Ramsey IS the rational sort who would treat Sansa wisely OR that Roose can keep a handle on him if he isn't. So, for the writing team to decide that LF just happily posts off to KL with his guards, leaving Sansa completely in in the power of the Boltons under the Polyannaish assumption that those wise folk won't harm her - IMO, that DOES make LF look a lot stupider than the smart man he's supposed to be, and is a sign of deficient writing, IMO.

 

Think of it as a computer game. Character class: damsel. Traits: high charisma, speechcraft, stealth. Skills: diplomacy, intrigue, seduction, persuasion. Sansa has leveled up. Ramsey is the new Joffrey. Roose is the new Cersei. He is not concerned with Sansa's virtue. He's probably not concerned with her health, comfort, or safety either, so long as she fulfills the bare bones political requirement of solidifying the Bolton claim on the North. Littlefinger is an idiot to betroth Sansa to Ramsey, but what are the alternatives? This way he can pick off Boltons til he's Lord Protector Warden of the North. It's all good. He needs Sansa alive, but he doesn't need her beautiful. And his intentions towards her were never about a selfless love. Severus Snape he ain't. Even if he did fall in love with her, he would still be taking revenge on her parents every time he touched her.

 

Sansa is going to need to draw on the same skills that allowed her to survive in King's Landing, but she's using them on bigger bosses in a harsher environment. Fortunately her allies have leveled, too. Instead of the Hound, she's got Brienne. Where she had Dontos, she now has Theon. Tyrion, who was only her family's enemy in a very accidental and abstract sense, and who had no intention of ever acting on his lustful feelings towards her, has been replaced by Baelish, her family's truest enemy and someone who I think does plan eventually to consummate his desires on her, AFTER first exhausting her value as a marriage pawn and obtaining the territories and connections he can get through breeding her.

 

Expecting Ramsey to change his spots is naive and if he does do it, it's very bad writing. He will undoubtedly break his promise never to hurt Sansa. He will either be unable to get it up without hurting her, or he will discover secrets of hers or transgressions that require punishment, or anxiety over Wanda's unborn son will cause him to take it out on Sansa. Probably all of the above. By the time he's done we'll all be wishing she were having Joffrey's golden haired babies, I'm sure.

 

Hopefully he'll slaughter his whole family first.

 

I'm interested in seeing how Reek and Sansa are going to be thrown together. There is going to have to be a scene in which Sansa listens to Reek's confession that her brothers are still alive. That's more likely to happen if they are both in disfavor and recuperating together in the kennels, than if she's being treated like a princess and he's hobbling around averting his eyes from her. Sooner or later they're going to land in the same boat so they can row it ashore together.

[Calamity Jane]

I have now watched this episode four or five times, and I have to say that each time yields new tidbits and delights to enjoy.  You can't say that about just every show!  So, hats off to everyone for something to enjoy more than once.  

 

And I still think Alfie Allen is heartbreakingly fantastic in his role.  I love Dinklage, Headey, Coster-Waldau, Dormer, Riggs, and Glen, but I don't think any of them has even approached what we see with the portrayal of Theon/Reek.  Whereas most of the characters have stayed fairly static in their characterization, we've had Theon the almost-brother of the Stark brothers, Theon the grandiose, deluded, and brutal warrior, Theon the captive slowly being broken down, and (for a while now) Reek, Ramsay's nearly sub-human slave, with a whisper of a somewhat restored Theon beginning to lurk in his eyes.  I'm beyond impressed.  

[screamin]

1) Citing the Joffrey/Cersei example shows how not likely it is. This is a Joffrey/Tywin parallel, and while Ramsay and Joffrey will surely rot in the same section of hell, there are differences here. The difference is Ramsay's status and position...Roose is not a Cersei type of parent, he's a Tywin...

 

If Roose is a Tywin, then he ISN'T capable of keeping his child from doing irrational things that are harmful. Tywin, despite all his badassery, notoriously failed to keep his children from acting on irrational impulses that ultimately may doom the house of Lannister.

 

Well here we are in a similar situation what does Roose do? He shuts Ramsay's crazy down. Openly. Ramsay is an elevated bastard, he doesn't have the inherent assurance that anything goes like Joffrey had. He's still iffy about his position as Roose's son, so no he won't just do what he wants openly if he's scared of losing his appeal as an heir.

 

And LF knows this about Ramsey how? Yes, Roose is ruler of the North, but that's a position the heir can respect, or undermine, or backstab the ruler out of, depending on his inclinations. Of course, it would take an extremely confident or stupid or crazy man to defy Roose, but if LF doesn't know if Ramsey is any of these things, he can't know for sure whether Roose can manage Ramsey without danger.

You think Joffrey abusing Sansa is the exception that proves the rule; that in general Westerosi aristocrats CAN be depended upon to act sensibly in their own best interests, and Joffrey was the sadistic outlier. But I don't think what we've seen so far really backs that up. I mentioned the example of Lysa. There's also the example of Cersei; did it make sense when SHE refused to have children with the king and had them with her brother instead? Was it in Ned's best interests to threaten Cersei while his children were still in King's Landing? Did Renly and Stannis behave sensibly after Robert died? Did Littlefinger himself act sensibly and in his and Sansa's best interest when he kissed Sansa in the courtyard where crazy Lysa could and did see him? Seems to me that it's at least as likely for Westerosi aristocrats to behave with irrational self-destructiveness as not. So for LF to assume that Ramsey will act sensibly and harmlessly without knowing him is to assume WAY too much - and makes him look stupid, IMO.

 

And Roose doesn't actually have Ramsey under control; we know that the North is restive under Bolton rule not only because they betrayed the Starks but ALSO because Ramsey is skinning lordlings and their wives for not paying their taxes. And that's the kind of discontent that won't necessarily be assuaged just because the flayer is married to a captive Stark. Hell, if Sansa appears TOO reconciled to the Boltons, the Stark sympathizers might consider HER a traitor for cuddling up to her family's killers. So if the North decides that Ramsey marrying a Stark isn't enough to make them resign themselves to a lifetime of death by flaying for tax evasion and rebels, Sansa ceases to be of value to the Boltons. It would therefore be perfectly rational of them to sell Sansa to Cersei for enough gold to hire mercenaries to save themselves.

 

There's also LF's plan B - Stannis swoops in and defeats the Boltons and rescues Sansa. Because women are NEVER in any danger during a war of getting burned to death or crushed by a trebuchet or slaughtered indiscriminately when a castle is stormed, or starved in a siege, or killed by a defeated Bolton in a last gesture of spite, a la Cersei. No, Sansa would be perfectly safe in such a warzone. Again, LF looks stupid. Bad writing.

 

I do understand why they did it...Sansa (relatively) safe in the Vale engaging in conspiracies between waltzes isn't cinematic. It CAN be made entertaining (a la Dangerous Liaisons) but it's not easy. Whereas Sansa in danger in Bolton territory in a warzone with Technicolor flayed corpses all around is VERY cinematic. And the viewer's emotional investment in Theon's redemption by rescuing a helpless girl is made more gripping if the girl he rescues is someone known to us and not a stranger - so why not make that girl Sansa?

 

Why not? Because I'm sick of seeing Sansa as a helpless girl perpetually in need of rescue, dammit.

 

Passive Sansa is not bad writing if that's the character that's established. A passive character in and of itself is not bad writing, passive people exist, why not passive characters?

 

 

Because all the characters (the ones that survive) change and adapt. Having Sansa be the only one who doesn't ever change, falling into the same pitfall over and over, would make a bizarre contrast. Oh, here's an ally offering help, I shall trust him/her - oops, s/he has a hidden agenda that is harmful. Woe is me. Oh, here's another ally, I shall put my trust in him/her...oh wait, s/he's got evil motives too, dammit. Oh, NOW here's a white knight, come and help me...oh, shit, who'd have seen THAT coming? I shall wait for Stannis, because he was so great at coming to the rescue last time...

 

After awhile, it stops being tragedy and starts being farce. And bad writing, IMO. I still have hopes that the writers will pull off Sansa being sly and manipulative enough to come out ahead against the Boltons, but the ham-handed way the writers put her in that peril to begin with doesn't fill me with confidence.

[Oscirus]

There's also the example of Cersei; did it make sense when SHE refused to have children with the king and had them with her brother instead? Was it in Ned's best interests to threaten Cersei while his children were still in King's Landing? Did Renly and Stannis behave sensibly after Robert died? Did Littlefinger himself act sensibly and in his and Sansa's best interest when he kissed Sansa in the courtyard where crazy Lysa could and did see him?

 

I think all the examples you cited actually make sense. 1. Cersei didn't refuse anything with Robert, she even had one that died in childbirth. She turned to Jamie once she became lonely. 2. As has been repeatedly established on this show, the Starks are honorable to the point of stupidity, by giving Cersei a chance to get away, he saw himself as doing the honorable thing and saving the lives of her and her kids. 3. I wouldn't call going after the throne when you think you can get it to be a non sensible thing.  Power hungry, yes, but definitely sensible. 4. Littlefinger purposely kissed Sansa in that courtyard so that Lysa could see and attack  Sansa and he'd have a believable reason to kill Lysa.

 

Of course, it would take an extremely confident or stupid or crazy man to defy Roose, but if LF doesn't know if Ramsey is any of these things, he can't know for sure whether Roose can manage Ramsey without danger.

 

 

Since Littlefinger definitely knows Roose, I'm pretty sure that he knows Roose isn't dumb enough to name a bastard that he can't control to be his heir.

 

 

The only questionable thing is how LF expects people to keep her arrival at Winterfell a secret, she's still a wanted woman.

 

 

 

 

[screamin]

I think all the examples you cited actually make sense. 1. Cersei didn't refuse anything with Robert, she even had one that died in childbirth. She turned to Jamie once she became lonely. 2. As has been repeatedly established on this show, the Starks are honorable to the point of stupidity, by giving Cersei a chance to get away, he saw himself as doing the honorable thing and saving the lives of her and her kids. 3. I wouldn't call going after the throne when you think you can get it to be a non sensible thing.  Power hungry, yes, but definitely sensible. 4. Littlefinger purposely kissed Sansa in that courtyard so that Lysa could see and attack  Sansa and he'd have a believable reason to kill Lysa.

 

 

I was using the word "sensible" to mean "reasonable in a way that does no harm to your interests and to the people you value," the way I think Fantique was using the word: 

The reason they're not being attacked is because people don't want to risk Sansa'a safety. It makes zero sense to spook her, and Roose is aware of that.

 

By that measure Cersei's decision to refuse to have children by Robert (and it was a refusal, both in the book and IIRC, on the show - didn't Lena Headey deliver that line, "I finished him in other ways"?) was not a sensible decision, as it made her adultery visible over time, and eventually endangered all her children. Nor was Ned's decision to warn Cersei when his children were still in KL, as it endangered them. Nor, IMO, was Renly's decision to turn against his brother to take the throne sensible, both because they had a powerful mutual enemy they should have defeated before coming to blows, and because he did not have a good claim to the throne, and if he had won he would have established the precedent that the throne legally belongs to whoever can get the biggest army together, undermining the monarchy. It's not a sensible decision for LF to kiss Sansa in front of his crazy jealous wife; it endangered Sansa's life. And I don't think it's sensible of LF to rouse the jealousy of murderous Lysa to make the decision to kill her "believable" to tv viewers he actually doesn't know are watching him. Was Robb's marriage sensible? IMO, it seems that it's more the exception than the rule for Westerosi aristocrats to act sensibly and harmlessly. So IMO, LF cannot assume that Ramsey WILL be sensible and harmless if he doesn't know him at all. Him doing so anyway makes him look dumb.

 

Since Littlefinger definitely knows Roose, I'm pretty sure that he knows Roose isn't dumb enough to name a bastard that he can't control to be his heir.

 

 

We happen to know that Roose hasn't fully controlled Ramsey. He left him in charge of his affairs in the North, in the (mistaken) assurance that his leadership style would suffice, and Ramsey slaughtered a lord and his wife for not paying taxes in a way that would disgust and horrify his other bannermen. Granted, the man slaughtered was probably going to be a permanent Bolton enemy, but his son and heir might not have been if handled sensibly. But Ramsey made certain the heir would be an implacable enemy, and also infused other bannermen with the uneasy idea that Bolton rule would be unendurable - which foments the spirit of revolt, because even a captive Stark bride might not make a land content with a brutal tyrant. And I think it remains to be seen whether the scolding Roose gave Ramsey DID get Ramsey under "control", especially now that he's threatened with the birth of a legitimate son with more powerful grandparents than any Ramsey has...

[MrWhyt]

The only questionable thing is how LF expects people to keep her arrival at Winterfell a secret, she's still a wanted woman.

Wanted by who? The Lannisters? No man of The North is going to turn over Ned Stark's daughter to the Lannisters. The Bolton's won't turn her over for fear of further pissing off the rest of The North and the Lannisters are in no position to come get her.

[WearyTraveler]

Regarding being sensible:

 

1) Cersei: she was sensible enough to go through the trouble of either sleeping with Robert after each time she got pregnant, or pretending to sleep with Robert after she got pregnant.  She wasn't a complete idiot.  The way it's being stated here, it's as if she had never slept with Robert and then tried to pass her children as his.  She did this deception so well, in fact, that no one suspected a thing.  Only Jon Arryn, and that's because he noticed that Robert's bastards all had dark hair.  As Robert's foster dad he knew Mya, and he knew the legitimized bastard in Storm's End.  How many people can say that? And even then Jon felt the need to do extra research, get the book and find even more bastards in KL.  And after all that, he still didn't say anything.  I guess he only realized he was right when he was dying.  And it was his dying, under mysterious circumstances, that made Ned believe it sooner than Jon had.

 

2) Ned: he gave Cersei a chance because he was a decent, honorable man, and because, at the time he made that announcement to Cersei, he had more power than she did.  Robert was still alive then.  He would never have believed Cersei over Ned.  Ned had already made it very clear that he didn't condone the murder of children when Robert wanted to kill Daenerys in Essos, and in the books he thinks that Robert would kill Cersei and the children, even if the latter ones had no blame in the matter.  So, because Ned is honorable, and a decent man, he gave those children the opportunity to live.  And he had no reason to fear Cersei then.  Robert was alive and he was Hand of the King.  In hindsight, he should have been more ruthless and have her arrested immediately, but hindsight is 20/20.

 

3) LF: off course LF didn't  need an excuse to kill Lysa.  She had served his purpose and he was done with her.  But he did need an excuse for Sansa to support him when he killed Lysa.  And he created the circumstances for that.  Then all he had to do was remain close by until Lysa lost it, as he knew she would, and save Sansa from her crazy aunt.

 

4) Robb: was being a 15 year old kid.  I'm not expecting him to be sensible.  Even so, he had a slip, he let himself be seduced when he was on high from having won a battle, and then he did the only honorable thing he could do. As his father taught him.  Lack of sense is not what kills the Starks, extreme honor does.

 

----------------------------------------

 

On the show, I don't know why we're taking Petyr at face value here.  He lies.  What's he going to say to Ramsey? "I know you're a deranged motherfucker, so, I'm gonna ask you to behave"?  Right!  I still maintain LF and Sansa had conversations about what course of action to take under different circumstances that we did not see.  

 

LF enticed Roose with the possibility of uniting the North and the Vale to take the IT; by accepting to marry Ramsey to Sansa, Roose is basically agreeing with LF's plan to eventually rise against the Lannisters.  If Sansa is irreparably harmed, I doubt LF will keep his end of the deal, so Roose has a reason to protect Sansa, and if Ramsay has half a brain, so does he.

Edited May 15, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[fantique]

If Roose is a Tywin, then he ISN'T capable of keeping his child from doing irrational things that are harmful. Tywin, despite all his badassery, notoriously failed to keep his children from acting on irrational impulses that ultimately may doom the house of Lannister.

 

I was first going to point out that Tywin wasn't around for most of their upbringing and that the majority of time he spent with either of them, they were separated. I have another argument though; there is a difference with curbing incestuous behaviour that one wouldn't naturally suspect and curbing outright examples that portray instability/lack of control in front of the family's enemies. Roose doesn't give a shit that Ramsay is a sadistic bastard, he wants to make sure his tendencies don't shoot them in the foot. 

And LF knows this about Ramsey how? Yes, Roose is ruler of the North, but that's a position the heir can respect, or undermine, or backstab the ruler out of, depending on his inclinations. Of course, it would take an extremely confident or stupid or crazy man to defy Roose, but if LF doesn't know if Ramsey is any of these things, he can't know for sure whether Roose can manage Ramsey without danger. I don't understand what LF knowing about has to do with what I said. My point was that Roose recognises that they're in a precarious situation, hence asking for LF's help. And LF is someone other nobles don't consider unless they are in a position of weakness. 

You think Joffrey abusing Sansa is the exception that proves the rule; that in general Westerosi aristocrats CAN be depended upon to act sensibly in their own best interests, and Joffrey was the sadistic outlier. But I don't think what we've seen so far really backs that up. I don't see how you don't understand what I was telling you. My point was not that nobles don't do this, it was that for Ramsay and Roose at this point, they need the support of the North. Torturing or causing discomfort in a way that is noticeably by others to Sansa is a sure way to have a rebellion on their hands. I never said, "oh nobles don't do this". I'm sorry but do you read 1/5 word that I write? I don't get how you got this interpretation out of my post that is clearly arguing that in this instance, Sansa needs to be treated well for the Boltons to get what they want.

 

I mentioned the example of Lysa. There's also the example of Cersei; did it make sense when SHE refused to have children with the king and had them with her brother instead? Was it in Ned's best interests to threaten Cersei while his children were still in King's Landing? Did Renly and Stannis behave sensibly after Robert died? Did Littlefinger himself act sensibly and in his and Sansa's best interest when he kissed Sansa in the courtyard where crazy Lysa could and did see him? Seems to me that it's at least as likely for Westerosi aristocrats to behave with irrational self-destructiveness as not. So for LF to assume that Ramsey will act sensibly and harmlessly without knowing him is to assume WAY too much - and makes him look stupid, IMO.

The poster before me has actually answered quite well about these examples. I will just reiterate that what I consider to be likely to happen is not about what makes sense in the bigger picture or for us as viewers, it's about knowing who those people are, what they want and how I know they go about getting what they want.

I never argued things from LF's point of view so again, I don't know where this is coming from. I don't care what LF wants or has planned, I don't expect him to be successful in the long run. My argument has always been that Sansa is not being tricked to incite "punishment" from Ramsay through the lady who said there are people looking out for her. My argument is that in the climate of Westeros right now, Winterfell is somewhere she has inbuilt support from and has more freedom and leeway.

And Roose doesn't actually have Ramsey under control; we know that the North is restive under Bolton rule not only because they betrayed the Starks but ALSO because Ramsey is skinning lordlings and their wives for not paying their taxes. Ramsay did it without his consent and he told him that while it worked, it's not a long term solution. This is not example of Ramsay getting out of control, Roose himself uses this technique, he is just saying in this particular situation (trying to win over the whole North), flaying isn't going to cut it. It would be an example of Ramsay getting out of control if Roose had said no flaying and he did it anyway. Also, factually incorrect: the North was already restive before the tax thing. The refusal to pay taxes was an example of their dissent. You've got it backwards. Roose was just stating that this measure won't be useful to change that restive state.

 

And that's the kind of discontent that won't necessarily be assuaged just because the flayer is married to a captive Stark. Hell, if Sansa appears TOO reconciled to the Boltons, the Stark sympathizers might consider HER a traitor for cuddling up to her family's killers. So if the North decides that Ramsey marrying a Stark isn't enough to make them resign themselves to a lifetime of death by flaying for tax evasion and rebels, Sansa ceases to be of value to the Boltons. It would therefore be perfectly rational of them to sell Sansa to Cersei for enough gold to hire mercenaries to save themselves.

The Boltons have been flaying for thousands of years, that's not the reason why the North don't want them as rulers, it's because the Northerners don't recognise their legitimacy and they betrayed the previous ruling House. This isn't about flaying, other houses don't care if the Boltons are being creepsters in their corner of the North, they care that they presume now to rule over everyone else. They don't care about the punishment for evading taxes, they care about having to pay taxes to these people. The North is all about respecting their liege lord, if Ned executed someone for not paying their taxes and that was the established law, no one would do anything. The North just doesn't recognises the Boltons as its liege Lords. That's why marrying a Stark would bring legitimacy, their children would have Stark blood, raised by a Stark girl in Winterfell. Those things matter in the North. Again, context and knowing the milieu. That's how those people think.

Also, if we're assuming the lady is telling the truth, there seems to be intent for the rest of the North to find a way to get rid of the Boltons. "The North Remembers" is like "A Lannister pays his debts" and this debt can only be paid in blood. Everyone else considers to Boltons to be traitors. Of course Roose is aware of their infamy but I suspect he doesn't think they would outright attack since Sansa is with them and she could be a hostage to keep the North on their toes (and she sort of is right now because they don't want the Boltons to hurt her). the balance is delicate, as it always is under occupations. The North won't openly attack because if the Boltons have nothing to lose, the last Stark is lost. At the same time, the Boltons want to get to rule, not fight a war they know they would lose so they won't hurt Sansa because of that. There is a delicate balance where as long as there is a pretence of civility on the surface, Sansa is actually kept safe by the stalemate.  Of course it could change, I am not denying that but I am saying that as of now, she is not walking with Ramsay around the corner ready to torture her at a moment's notice.

 

There's also LF's plan B - Stannis swoops in and defeats the Boltons and rescues Sansa. Because women are NEVER in any danger during a war of getting burned to death or crushed by a trebuchet or slaughtered indiscriminately when a castle is stormed, or starved in a siege, or killed by a defeated Bolton in a last gesture of spite, a la Cersei. No, Sansa would be perfectly safe in such a warzone. Again, LF looks stupid. Bad writing.

Where the hell do you thing she will be during the battle? On the freaking walls? She would obviously be hidden away somewhere safe, ie: the crypts and they would get the information of her whereabouts. There is no way both sides are careless with their best asset in getting the north to cooperate. Since you brought it up, during Blackwater, she wasn't in danger of being killed (by being exposed to the war) and that's why Cersei told Sansa Trant (Or was it Payne?) would kill her if Stannis won because she wouldn't let Sansa get the satisfaction of getting away from the Lannisters and profiting from their loss. In those times, the highborn women and children were kept in specific quarters when there was an assault. I don't believe that a bitter Bolton would succeed because she has people inside the castle looking out for her. Maybe that's just me being naive but that's what I believe. For both sides, a highborn girl native to the castle they are fighting over would be a bargaining chip and everyone would make sure she can be found and identified, alive. 

LF looking stupid is not the first time it happened. He looked stupid last season by not anticipating the Vale lords and lady would want to speak to Sansa without him having time to come up with a version of events that exonerated him. In season 1, he overplayed his hand with Cersei by letting her know he knew about the twincest. He has been shown many times that he believes to be the smartest person in the room and taking credit for when things go his way (Sansa revealing her name). It is entirely consistent with his character to believe he knows what he's doing when he doesn't. The show has also gone to painstaking lengths to drill into our heads that he's a gambling man. High risk, high reward. I already said that what he said onscreen to Sansa is BS, I think he just wanted to reassure her so she can continue to do what he asked. Whatever his plan is doesn't matter for Sansa herself, he put her in this situation and he has no influence over its outcome while he's away. Heck, before the season started, I argued that once they were in WF, Sansa had the possibility to have more influence because LF is not who the people in Winterfell/rest of the North would care about or listen to but they would for her. You can argue it's bad writing to put her in the situation in the first place but I do think that for any of the Stark children, the possibility of them regaining back their home is a step forward in their narrative. If this was anywhere but WF, yes, I would see her in a place of weakness but as of now, in Winterfell, I see her in a place of strength with assets she hasn't had since S1E2.

 

I do understand why they did it...Sansa (relatively) safe in the Vale engaging in conspiracies between waltzes isn't cinematic. It CAN be made entertaining (a la Dangerous Liaisons) but it's not easy. Whereas Sansa in danger in Bolton territory in a warzone with Technicolor flayed corpses all around is VERY cinematic. And the viewer's emotional investment in Theon's redemption by rescuing a helpless girl is made more gripping if the girl he rescues is someone known to us and not a stranger - so why not make that girl Sansa?

 

Why not? Because I'm sick of seeing Sansa as a helpless girl perpetually in need of rescue, dammit.

Trust me, I expressed my disgust many times for Sansa being in the tortured plaything position, I have also said that I don't believe that she is under constant threat of harm right now so...Bottom line is: you're scared something will happen to her and I'm not. I tried to explain in both my posts that the way you see them hurting her (setting a trap for her so they can "punish" her for inciting revolt, which would also mean they are looking for an excuse to hurt her) is unlikely and would make no sense for the characters' interests at the moment, they are aware of how unstable they are. Roose because the North hates them and Ramsay because he is desperate to give roose what he wants to be truly appreciated as his heir. And you are wrong, she is not in Bolton territory, that's the point. They are surrounded by Stark loyalists. Whether you like/accept my argument is up to you but I was just saying, your certitude that the worst will happen is based in it being the worst case scenario. I admitted that the show has gone that ridiculous route before but I don't think it will happen this time because there are other places to go with that story especially as we are ramping up towards the endgame.

What I find funny is that you say you don't want the torture fest and the worry-filled atmosphere but you're the one creating it because of reasons extraneous to the actual story. "They've done it before" is not a reason why something should/will happen. And when Sansa is handed a tool to keep herself safe, you deny its veracity and say that it would be too easy if it's really help and that would be bad writing (which I take to mean you wouldn't want that). Those sentiments don't go together. Either you want her safe, and her having people in the home she grew up in watching her back keeps her safe, or you want her in danger to have to save herself in the first place since you don't like the idea that there is truly a network of people native to WF/WT who want their original lord's family back on top. I also don't think this will be about Theon rescuing her but time will tell.

 

Because all the characters (the ones that survive) change and adapt. Having Sansa be the only one who doesn't ever change, falling into the same pitfall over and over, would make a bizarre contrast. Oh, here's an ally offering help, I shall trust him/her - oops, s/he has a hidden agenda that is harmful. Woe is me. Oh, here's another ally, I shall put my trust in him/her...oh wait, s/he's got evil motives too, dammit. Oh, NOW here's a white knight, come and help me...oh, shit, who'd have seen THAT coming? I shall wait for Stannis, because he was so great at coming to the rescue last time...

Davos hasn't changed, Stannis has changed extremely little, Cersei hasn't changed, loads of people have stayed the same this whole time. Honestly, this is GOT, not freaking LOTR where doing the foolhardy but brave thing gets you somewhere. Her taking risks while the outcome is uncertain would make her stupid, active but definitely stupid. Again, I don't know what you see her doing as active now that she is in this situation regardless of how we feel about it. If waiting things out and making sure she has options is passive (though I disagree) then at least that makes her smart. I'm sorry but all I'm seeing is you want to see your preferred version of Sansa, don't like a turn of events where you don't see it happening and are now basically predicting the worst outcome because you didn't get a plot you liked. That's fine I guess but as far as judging whether it's good writing or not, I really can't see much objectivity to respond to. You don't like the turn of events and you have your preferences. Fair enough.

After awhile, it stops being tragedy and starts being farce. And bad writing, IMO. I still have hopes that the writers will pull off Sansa being sly and manipulative enough to come out ahead against the Boltons, but the ham-handed way the writers put her in that peril to begin with doesn't fill me with confidence.

This is getting circular because I don't believe that she's in more peril than she ever was since leaving Winterfell and I feel like the show is framing it that way. Yes, they do twists that pull the rug out from under the viewers but when you go back and watch, there are hints that things are not actually going to go as planned. In universe, Ned's death, RW and Oberyn's deaths make sense. It's the meta of "the heroes can't die" that makes it surprising to some viewers. In this situation, we simply don't really know what the plan is but the show is trying to tell us that Sansa has means of protection should things go awry.

 

I was using the word "sensible" to mean "reasonable in a way that does no harm to your interests and to the people you value," the way I think Fantique was using the word: 

I never used the word sensible and there is a reason for it: almost nobody in this damn story does the sensible thing, otherwise their troubles would be over ages ago. I meant makes sense in terms of what is consistent with their character. Ramsay has consistently been shown to want approval from his father more than anything else. I had said already that it wasn't about what we think is reasonable but about what is organic to how the characters have been established. Who they are, what they want and how they go about getting it.

Edited May 16, 2015 by fantique

[Hecate7]

I find it hard to feel bad for Hizdahr in regards to Dany because as I recall, he relentlessly pursued her hand in marriage in the books, right?  Grant it, the show version of his character is very different than the book version, but I know he should not be opposed to this pairing for the very same reasons he wanted it in the books.  

 

Besides if we are going to parallel him, it would be much closer to Sansa's marriage to Tyrion which really wasn't all that bad for a match for her - he would have protected her at least.  Far safer with him than a Bolton! 

 

I think Dany needs to see the masters as something other than slavers and Hizdahr will help her with that. Right now, she can't look past the sins of their culture.  It's a good lesson to learn before she goes back to Westerous and deals with all the high lords.  After all, those poor people of Westerous are likely not that much better off than the slaves she has been freeing.

 

I think Dany is a closer parallel to Sansa/Joffrey, than Sansa/Tyrion. Why?

 

1) Dany crucified Hizdar's father.

2) She executed the head of that other family without a trial, and threatened all the other heads, including Hizdahr.

3) Although she is beautiful and he might have been delighted to marry her when they first met, he is now terrified. There was nothing in his demeanor which suggested he was excited or happy about the idea. He is now mainly marrying her to avoid being executed by her.

4) She is punishing one group of people for the actions of others, like when Joffrey had Sansa beaten because Robb was rebelling.

5) Tyrion was willing to forgo the bedding, and to face down Joffrey to protect Sansa, twice. Danaerys isn't protecting Hizdahr from anyone but Danaerys, and she probably isn't going to protect him from that either.

[John Potts]

OK, as a fan of Stannis (the Mannis), I'm loving the fact that he is actually paying attention to the White Walker threat. By the Seven Hells, even the Night Watch who have more reason than anyone to be concerned about undead zombies swarming into the lands of men (eventually!) seem more concerned with the fact that their Lord Commander wants to let those dirty Wildlings through the Wall. Though I did like his exchange with Maester Aemon:

"If I do this, half the men will hate me"

"Half of them hate you already!"

Wow - That Greyscale is incredibly virulent if Jorah is showing signs of infection only minutes after being touched.

On ‎11‎/‎05‎/‎2015 at 3:41 AM, Brn2bwild said:

I don't quite get why Ramsay would fear an in-wedlock Bolton son.

It depends how easy it is to "de-legitimise" a legitimised bastard. But even if that isn't possible, Roose IS the authority in the North and if he wants to have Ramsay killed, he could do so. Which is why it was probably a mistake to legitimise him in the first place - Ramsay has been far less deferential to his father since he became Ramsay Bolton - it was the one thing that might act as a check on Ramsay's behaviour.

On ‎11‎/‎05‎/‎2015 at 4:49 AM, SeanC said:

She's not really got any "game" to play other than try to win over Ramsay, which she doesn't appear to be trying to do

Which is why I don't understand why Sansa agreed in the first place. I wouldn't mind if she was bad at manipulating Ramsay, she doesn't even seem to be trying. I guess she's just hoping Stannis will make it, win the battle and that she gets through the storming of Winterfell unhurt (by either side). To quote Tony Stark, "Not a great plan!"

On ‎11‎/‎05‎/‎2015 at 3:21 AM, benteen said:

Sophie Turner did fine work again, especially her reaction to see Theon.

I have to admit, I was expecting to see the old lady who offered to help Sansa being snacked on by one of Ramsay's dogs. Which would have required near psychic powers on the part of Ramsay, but it wouldn't have surprised me.

On ‎11‎/‎05‎/‎2015 at 4:39 AM, SeanC said:

Dany’s characterization is decidedly, er, erratic right now.  After making a big to-do about justice and due process, she has two random guys gruesomely burned to death, and talks about executing everybody – and now she’s marrying Hizdahr instead.

There didn't seem a lot of "Repaying justice with justice" going on there. Though I do worry about how much her "children" are getting fed (I don't suppose that Elder provided a lot of meat for beasts the size of Viserion and Rhaegal). Though I did like Hizadahr confessing he didn't want to die - and then getting proposed to! That's got to be some mood whiplash.