Houdini And Doyle - General Discussion

[atomationage]

This was probably the worst episode of the series, and it was still interesting enough to watch, but they're making Arthur and George look better and better, and it was only 3 episode, and had Martin Clunes. 

[ratgirlagogo]

I might hate this less if I knew less about Houdini and Doyle.  For god's sake they did not even MEET each other until 1920!  Their actual friendship and eventual falling out are so interesting in reality that I can't believe they didn't do a show about that instead of this weird George Baxt -type procedural.

On 5/6/2016 at 7:48 PM, atomationage said:

Steampunk X-Files is probably a good description.

See, I could accept that if this were being presented as some kind of alternate universe.  But it isn't.  So it's not so much the anachronisms as the historical falsehoods.  The characterisations sort of draw on what people vaguely remember about Houdini and Doyle, but they're seriously off in all kinds of ways and as I said I'm  a fan of both real people, so this bothers me a lot.

[Tara Ariano]

Quote

The team investigate when a heckler dies mysteriously at a faith healer's show, and seek to determine if the person is actually channeling the power of God.

[thuganomics85]

Yep, if these first two episodes are any indication, it basically sounds like the cases are going to end up having a realistic explanation that will satisfy Houdini and make it able for them to convict, but leave enough questions and mysterious, so Doyle can buy the possibility that something supernatural was going on.  It wasn't as obvious here, but in this case, it was the mark on the kid's head and how he discovered Martin's body.

Enjoyed this episode a bit more then the pilot, and I'm enjoying the interactions between the main three.  Still not all that wild about Houdini, but he wasn't as annoying this time.  Doyle though, I find more interesting and I even liked his stuff involving the daughter, even though I tend not to like those parts.  Adelaide continues to hold her own, although I worry they are going down the obvious "opposites attract" route with her and Houdini.

Fun seeing Laura Fraser playing a British character, since I really only know her for Breaking Bad (although I know she's Scottish in real-life, thanks to the BB commentaries.)

[Primetimer]

This and other burning questions about the behavior of every character on Houdini & Doyle, and how it totally takes the viewer out of the episode's flow.

View the full article

[stanleyk]

I saw the first two episodes and found it disappointingly flat, and I agree it is absolutely squandering Stephen Mangan. It's like the entire show is written by a computer, plugging in various threadbare cliches. I love a good procedural, I love period stuff, so I should love this, but it is...not engaging.

But to be a tiny bit fair, Spiritualism and an interest in the occult boomed in Victorian England, so while surely not everyone was a believer, I don't know that you can say the cultural milieu was one devoted solely to rational thought. After all, the real Conan Doyle was a Spiritualist, just like the real-life Houdini exposed the fraud behind the Spiritualist movement. I'm no expert, but I understand that holding seances was A Thing among middle and upper-classes in England at the time, and the vogue was not that short-lived.

[gazebo]

Doyle's wife slipping back into a coma had me very depressed.  Amazing that in only one episode, this woman showed more personality and likability than the three leads on this Show.  And damn, she slips back into a coma again. 

I find myself really intrigued by the pretty curly blonde assistant who helps Houdini in his magic act and gives him a darn good backrub.  Now I can add that she is also the one that saved his life last night when Houdini was actually too sick to perform, and like a typical stubborn male, decides he's ok to get himself all trussed up and lowered into the water filled cage in spite of how shitty he feels!  Is her name Florrie?  I heard "Florrie" somewhere.  I'd like her to actually open her mouth and say something soon.

I was really grossed out by the boils on Houdini's body and the bug crawling out of that corpse's mouth.  Yuck!  It was hard for me to watch last night.

I was amused by that preacher doing his work and beguiling all the people in the tent.  I saw the same thing with a televangelist awhile ago.  Some things never change.

[GaT]

50 minutes ago, gazebo said:

Doyle's wife slipping back into a coma had me very depressed.  Amazing that in only one episode, this woman showed more personality and likability than the three leads on this Show.  And damn, she slips back into a coma again. 

 

I'm only watching this because there's nothing else on I watch on Monday's. It's a pretty boring show, & I don't find any of the leads interesting at all. I was annoyed by the wife going back into the coma, it was a stupid twist, are they just going to have him mope about it for the entire series?

[tootsie]

Vomit and boils and beetles, o my! Guess I'm in the minority here but unless you're a middle-school-age boy, I thought that episode was awful. I want to like this show; historicals are my favorite and I know it's not Masterpiece so I'm prepared to cut a LOT of slack. But there's not enough slack in the world to make me enjoy that episode. A heartfelt plea to the writers: please spend more time on plot and less on gratuitous special effects. 

[dargosmydaddy]

Admittedly I've only been watching during the commercials of Jane the Virgin, but I rather like this little show. And I really like Houdini...

[Jodithgrace]

I could like these character if they were fictional, but I'm sorry..these are/were real people and I just can't get past the elephant that's NOT in the room..Houdini's wife! She would have been his assistant, not this Florrie person, and forget the constable. And even if Houdini had been known to be a philanderer, which to my knowledge, he wasn't, the very moral seeming Doyle would hardly be encouraging him to go for it.

So what exactly was the cause of Houdini's illness? Did they ever say? When he first vomited and said "food poisoning," my first thought was appendicitis, and then I thought..no too soon! Imagine if it had actually been appendicitis and they removed it. He might have then survived the punch in the stomach that later killed him. As long as they are messing with history...

The problem with shows of this sort is that there are too few characters. If the murderer wasn't the preacher, nor the victim's wife, then who else was left? Doyles' occasionally comatose wife? 

Maybe Doyle's wife can pop out of her coma every six months or so, just to catch up with the kids and keep him from throwing out her dresses.

[zxy556575]

I like the embossed green tile walls in the sanitorium/hospital hallways. So that's something.

[kat165]

Lordonia, I did too! And that arch was lovely also as were the stained glass windows/doors beyond the arch. I also like the woman dectective's dress. I wish I could get pins like those numbers that she has on her collar. It's kind of a bizarre outfit, but I really like it. Not much else to like about this ep though.

[Clanstarling]

On ‎5‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 11:03 AM, tootsie said:

Vomit and boils and beetles, o my!

Vomit is in this year. I think almost every show I watch has had a disgustingly graphic vomiting session in it. Please - retching sounds are plenty if you truly need to have a character vomit.

I've a pretty strong stomach, but I looked away the entire scene when Harry was picking at his boils. No thanks. I don't think they ever gave a particular reason why he got ill - except some handwavium that deep down he thought he deserved to be punished for rejecting God (did I just make that up - I think I heard something like that).

I record shows for my morning exercise, and pickings are slim this time of year. It's entertaining enough to get through my workout when nothing else is available. I don't hate it, but think it could be much better. I have to say, though, the scene where Doyle's daughter comes in and just takes over hanging up her mother's things, that scene was well done.

I ignore the fact these are real people with life events/relationships the writer's are ignoring so they can write their stories. It's less maddening that way.

[Raja]

On 5/12/2016 at 9:46 AM, ratgirlagogo said:

I might hate this less if I knew less about Houdini and Doyle.  For god's sake they did not even MEET each other until 1920!  Their actual friendship and eventual falling out are so interesting in reality that I can't believe they didn't do a show about that instead of this weird George Baxt -type procedural.

See, I could accept that if this were being presented as some kind of alternate universe.  But it isn't.  So it's not so much the anachronisms as the historical falsehoods.  The characterisations sort of draw on what people vaguely remember about Houdini and Doyle, but they're seriously off in all kinds of ways and as I said I'm  a fan of both real people, so this bothers me a lot.

What year is this set?  I had to check on female police constables and wiki puts it at 1919

[Ailianna]

On ‎5‎/‎18‎/‎2016 at 8:50 PM, Jodithgrace said:

The problem with shows of this sort is that there are too few characters. If the murderer wasn't the preacher, nor the victim's wife, then who else was left? Doyles' occasionally comatose wife? 

Actually, I thought it was going to be the overprotective body guard.  Since he had contact with Houdini, I thought he had slipped something onto his skin or something that would cause a fever and boils.  He was awfully fierce in his protection of the reverend, and would have been able to get in and out of a lot of places to set up the others, like a burr under the horse's saddle, screw up the wiring, et cetera.

[thuganomics85]

I thought it was going to be the bodyguard too, since he seemed to be randomly showing up whenever the scene called for it, but I should have known it would be the sister.  Especially since it was the recognizable face of the group (Enuka Okuma, who I know from Rookie Blue), so that was a big warning sign since she really didn't do anything before the reveal, outside of two scenes.  I did like them touching on the Spiritualism and charlatans, since that was a part in both Doyle and Houdini's life.

Obvious that something was going to happen to Doyle's wife, so it wasn't surprising when she slips back into a coma again.  

I wish they would do more with Adelaide besides play up her and Houdini and being yelled or talked down to by her boss all the time.

It's still a passable show, but it is lucky to be airing in the summertime.

[dargosmydaddy]

17 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Especially since it was the recognizable face of the group (Enuka Okuma, who I know from Rookie Blue)

I spent way too much of the episode staring at her and wondering why she looked so familiar. I blame the period costume and the sketchy British accent for not figuring it out sooner...

[dargosmydaddy]

I'm not the only one who watched last night, right?

And surely I'm not the only one who wished Doyle would give his poor son a hug after that screaming fit, right? Or at least a pat on the shoulder? A tuck in to bed? Ouch.

Edited May 25, 2016 by dargosmydaddy

[Jodithgrace]

Those British with their stiff upper lips, you know. At least, he came around at the end and said that it would be all right to be scared. 

I really don't care for Doyle promising his kids that their mother will be okay. That isn't a promise he can make, or keep.

More Constable mystery. I guess they are going to drag her story out all season. 

And once again, the mystery (of the original death) remains unsolved, so that there is both a natural explanation (he fell accidentally) or a supernatural one (Jack got him) I sense a trend.

I, for one, was rooting for Spring Heel'd Jack to be the paperboy, looking to increase circulation. 

[chaifan]

Could someone explain how they fed & kept hydrated coma victims in the early 1900's?  Doyle's wife seemed awfully healthy and not at all gaunt for someone in a coma for 6 months.

[GaT]

This show has become background noise for me, I just don't find these characters interesting.

[Margherita Erdman]

On May 17, 2016 at 7:03 PM, PreviouslyTV said:

This and other burning questions about the behavior of every character on Houdini & Doyle, and how it totally takes the viewer out of the episode's flow.

View the full article

Everything Lisa Schmeiser said, x100

[Ubiquitous]

I was rather surprised to hear Spring-Heel'd Jack's name come up. I thought he was pretty obscure. I suspected Houdini's yellow journalist friend was involved, but I thought it was going to be more direct. I'm feeling ambivulant about the first death bieng left unresolved.

[comsimplex]

For the real story of SpringHeel Jack, check out the free e-book, written well before this episode, "Elementary, My Dear Spock": www.extremelysmart.com/magrathea

Sherlock Holmes solved the case--along with Watson, Kirk, Spock, and McCoy!
 

[zxy556575]

7 hours ago, comsimplex said:

For the real story of SpringHeel Jack, check out the free e-book, written well before this episode, "Elementary, My Dear Spock": www.extremelysmart.com/magrathea

Sherlock Holmes solved the case--along with Watson, Kirk, Spock, and McCoy!
 

Well. A person couldn't be expected to resist that. Downloaded!

[shrewd.buddha]

When I watched this episode I was distracted by the set decoration - or rather, the absence of set decoration. It made me appreciate the amount of detail that shows such as Downton Abbey put forth. The streets and rooms in H&D look way too clean, almost barren, as if no one really uses them. I realize it is thing that is a result of budget, but still.. 

And yes, Doyle's British parenting and consoling is pretty sad. Maybe just send those kids to boarding school so they could have a chance of getting some random affection ... or learn how to channel their sadness and joy into a decent Expecto Patronum spell. 

I sort of missed which of the crimes they left unsolved, but I'm surprised to learn it was the first murder that started the investigation. Seriously? It doesn't help matters that they showed us, the audience, exactly how it happened. I don't think that's how you shroud a murder with mystery, film-wise.
Plus, it is like catching the copycat killer but just giving up on trying to catch the original serial killer. 

Edited May 26, 2016 by shrewd.buddha

[kat165]

I finally caught up with this ep yesterday (it's on the same time as 12 Monkeys & I'm not giving up that to watch this!). What a disappointing episode. They never solved the first murder. So what was the point? And yes, the streets looked way too clean. Frankly, I was expecting more from this series since it comes from David Shore who did the outstanding (at least early on) House MD which he based on Holmes and Watson.

The woman character is also rather pointless and not very well integrated into the flimsy storylines. She isn't even necessary. If they wanted to include a woman as a main character they should have gone with, for example, Houdini's wife. I hate that they manipulated (ignored) history so that they could have Houdini chasing after the woman cop or going to brothels. Was Houdini an opium smoker? I'd not heard that before.

[Ubiquitous]

Wasn't everyone pretty much smoking opium in those days?

[Margherita Erdman]

On May 26, 2016 at 8:54 AM, shrewd.buddha said:

Doyle's British parenting and consoling is pretty sad. Maybe just send those kids to boarding school so they could have a chance of getting some random affection ...

Funny, I had the opposite thought with poor little Kingsley -- I felt bad for him but figured at least he hasn't been packed off to an awful public school where he'd constantly be bullied by fellow students and beaten by staff.

I still think this show is quite weak, couldn't care less about the constable's melodrama, and am also annoyed by the play-coy attitude toward mystery-solving and the supernatural, but I did think that this episode gelled better than any yet in terms of cast chemistry, pacing, etc. Whatsisname as Houdini didn't annoy me half so much this episode, nor the ahistorical liberties taken with his character.

[Margherita Erdman]

The series is set in 1901; so, completely outside the timeline of Houdini and Doyle's actual friendship. And, I guess, according to your research, outside the timeline of female PCs as well!

There is a Houdini blogger who has written two informative and entertaining entries relating to the show -- one on the history of the relationship itself  and another on other fictional treatments of the subject.

[thuganomics85]

I've actually kind of heard about Spring Heel'd Jack before, although only really his name and nothing else.  Either way, I figured it was going to be the reporter somehow, so it was just waiting and seeing, how he pulled it all off.  And him not being behind the first death is just one of those "Maybe Spring Heel'd Jack really exists!" ending, which once again just makes me feel like this show wants to be an Victorian era X-Files.

Not surprised that Adelaide is apparently married either.  Not sure what is going on there or if I should care.  I'm all for giving her more to do outside of Houdini hitting on her, but I'm not sure this is it.  And I thought she was way too forgiving over Doyle and Houdini breaking into her flat.

I did enjoy the scene where Houdini was showing Doyle's kids magic tricks.  Anytime there are scenes like that, I always wonder if the actor himself is  taut how to perform it, or if they use camera work and other types of editing to pull it off. 

Agree this show isn't all that good, but eh, it's summer and it is still a solid way to pass an hour or so.

[Ailianna]

On the other hand, it's relatively accurate timeline wise for Doyle, if you look at his first wife's illness and the publication of The Great Boer War (prominently pimped in this episode!).  Wikipedia article

[Margherita Erdman]

I was browsing around Drunk History videos, as one does, and discovered that Lucius Dillon narrated a segment on the Houdini-Doyle friendship in the Detroit episode, with Ken Marino as Houdini.

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/af0w8l/drunk-history-houdini---spiritualism---uncensored

[photo fox]

Quote

An attractive traveling medium uses her psychic gifts to solve crimes, frustrating Houdini when he can’t figure out her tricks. Doyle feels she may be the real thing, so he is mortified by her next prediction: the end of Adelaide Stratton.

[shrewd.buddha]

I was surprised to see this was aired on Memorial Day - - apparently FOX doesn't care too much whether it tanks or not.

This one seemed very procedural-ish. The kidnapper's motivation was somewhat sympathetic, so that was interesting. 

Edited May 31, 2016 by shrewd.buddha

[GaT]

5 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

I was surprised to see this was aired on Memorial Day - - apparently FOX doesn't care too much whether it tanks or not.

This one seemed very procedural-ish. The kidnapper's motivation was somewhat sympathetic, so that was interesting. 

Huh, my DVR didn't record it, I had no idea it was on.

[thuganomics85]

Only big takeaway I really had from this one is that if you have to get someone to play an out there medium, who may or may not be a con artist, you might as well go with Emily Hampshire a.k.a. Jennifer Goines from 12 Monkeys!  Although it would have been more entertaining if she just went full Jennifer Goines in that role, and made the character a complete nutter.

Houdini was overprotective to a fault with his mother.  For goodness sakes man, she's a grown-ass woman!  She can date whoever she wants, dude.

So, the big reveal at the end is Adelaide isn't actually Adelaide at all.  Cool?

Kind of weird that they finally decided to wait until now to give the mainly one-dimensional hardass captain a tragic backstory, with him loosing a son (in war, I think?)

[Jodithgrace]

I swear. I wish they would have called this show Doudini and Hoyle so I could forget that these were real people and just enjoy it. I like the actors and the stupid mysteries are entertaining enough, but Houdini's wife just won't leave my mind. Plus anytime they have a chance to actually throw in a real detail, they just ignore it. For example, last week H&D were tooling around in a cool vintage auto, but the real Houdini was apparently afraid of cars and hardly ever rode in one if he could avoid it. A detail like that would have been perfect to have thrown in. Instead we have sleezy womanizer Houdini, who couldn't be further from the truth.

Plus they make no attempt to get the period right. I remember when mouth to mouth resuscitation was invented. Before that, people used chest compressions to basically pump the water out of the lungs. My girl scout manual was full of diagrams on the various ways of doing that. I guess next week Doyle will save somebody using the Heimlich manouver. 

I guess it doesn't help that when the medium announced that Adelaide would be no more, my first thought was ,"who?" I tend to think of her as the Constable and totally forgot her real (fake) name. That's how much her character interests me.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Jodithgrace

[mjc570]

Yeah, that was kind of repetitive, but I think that's the nature of the show.  They really need to do a better job of filling in the characters, because they are just stagnant now (except for the WPC, of course), with nothing new about them since basically the first episode.  I don't know how the Inspector is able to be civil to Doyle, given that Doyle apparently wrote a book in favor of the Boer war in which the inspector's son died. 

I totally agree that the episode would have been a million times better with the full-on Jennifer Goins experience (Emily Hampshire's role in 12 Monkeys). Her accent was pretty funny, though.  I hope she is a frequently recurring lover for Houdini, since I think they are a great pair.

In my opinion, Mama Houdini was much worse than her son, who at least tried to recognize that she is an adult entitled to her own life.  After she told him she wasn't going to be seeing that (apparently very nice, very rich) gentleman any more because she and Harry had each other, all I could think was - hmm, classic psycho killer paradigm.  Or something like that.

My favorite part of the episode - Mme. Khourza's beautiful headdress. 

Edit:  I assume Adelaide's deception has to do with (solving?) her husband's death, although there's been no indication whatsoever of that.

Edited June 1, 2016 by mjc570
additional thought

[photo fox]

19 hours ago, Jodithgrace said:

I swear. I wish they would have called this show Doudini and Hoyle so I could forget that these were real people and just enjoy it. I like the actors and the stupid mysteries are entertaining enough, but Houdini's wife just won't leave my mind. Plus anytime they have a chance to actually throw in a real detail, they just ignore it. For example, last week H&D were tooling around in a cool vintage auto, but the real Houdini was apparently afraid of cars and hardly ever rode in one if he could avoid it. A detail like that would have been perfect to have thrown in. Instead we have sleezy womanizer Houdini, who couldn't be further from the truth.

So much this.  It's completely distracting to me.  Houdini got married at 19? 20? and was married until he died.  His wife traveled everywhere with him, as she was his on-stage assistant.  I can usually just squint and move on, but when he (and then his mother) were going on and on about how they "only have each other"... the hell?  It's one thing to just kind of gloss over history, but it's another thing to have direct and specific dialog that is provably untrue.

If they just HAD to have UST on this show, make Houdini a cheater, or make Doyle unwillingly drawn to the Constable while his wife is "away".  Both of those would be untrue (and character assassinations), but at least a quick glance at Wikipedia wouldn't expose the lie.  It's just so bizarre to me that they've completely rewritten that part of Houdini's history.  The man was married to the same woman his entire adult life.

The show generally is in a category I call Watchable But Not Good, but every time Houdini's "single" status is mentioned, I grow slightly less interested in the remaining episodes.

[zxy556575]

On 5/31/2016 at 9:00 PM, mjc570 said:

In my opinion, Mama Houdini was much worse than her son, who at least tried to recognize that she is an adult entitled to her own life.  After she told him she wasn't going to be seeing that (apparently very nice, very rich) gentleman any more because she and Harry had each other, all I could think was - hmm, classic psycho killer paradigm.  Or something like that.

I liked the moment after his mother broke it off with her gentleman and told Houdini something along the lines of she'd never leave him, and the realization dawned that possessiveness and jealousy work both ways. Good luck to any woman he brings home.

I like Adelaide more than either of the two men so am interested in learning more about her backstory.

[Willowsmom]

Houdini married Bess in 1894 and Doyle had a woman he was in love with who would become his second wife.

This show would have been better if they hadn't pretended it was about real people.

[Ms Lark]

I'm totally on board with everyone who is bugged by Houdini being single. Not only was he married to Bess forever, he had 4 brothers and a sister, so Mama's "only have each other" is also a pile.

9 hours ago, Willowsmom said:

This show would have been better if they hadn't pretended it was about real people.

Bingo.

I do like the "Adelaide" the Constable, but she is so tightly corseted into a tiny wasp waist I wonder how she breathes, much less fights crime! That bugs me, too.

Whatevs. It won't last long. It's not a wow with the ratings nor critics, so chances are considered slim for renewal.

[Commando Cody]

This episode reminded me of the "Faith" episode of Supernatural. Someone gets healed, someone drops dead. 

[Ailianna]

I (sort of) understand people being upset that the (largely unknown to the general public) details of the real-life Houdini and Doyle aren't being adhered to precisely, but for everyone who wants it to be about some generic guys, I don't think the show would be in production if not for taking the two leads as the GENERAL public knows them.  Most people know Houdini as an escape artist and that's about it.  So his (true) avocation for revealing frauds is an interesting contradiction,  Most people know Doyle as the author of Sherlock Holmes, the character that popular wisdom sees as wise and scientific, the literary father of forensic science, almost.  So to have him actually believe in mediums, spiritualists, et al (also true), is another contradiction that people will find interesting.  Now, I know that there was more to both men, and the popular image isn't necessarily the true image, but the fact remains that both men are well known in the popular consciousness as certain types.  Having Bob the escape artist and Frank the writer solve crimes with the Victorian London police just isn't going to attract the same interest as Houdini and Doyle.  One can debate the success of the show; but I'm guessing the panache of the two names in the title is the reason for the green light.

[TimetoShine]

Yes, to the above. I don't know anything about the two, nor do I care. I'm just watching the stories.

[Darian]

I seem to have read/seen enough fictional versions of Arthur Conan Doyle and Harry Houdini that I'm kind of desensitized. I remember liking this book many years ago, so that may have something to do with it as well. I'm enjoying it. In the first episode, I thought Weston was miscast, but he soon grew on me, and I'm enjoying the dynamic between them a great deal.  

[Ms Lark]

True, but I feel it defames Houdini's memory by portraying him as a playboy rather than the faithful married man he was.

[dargosmydaddy]

Came in twenty minutes into the episode, so I don't have much to say about the (not)monsters of the week except for the fact that the make-up department seemed to get carried away...

Also, I'd be cool with watching Houdini do angry push-ups every episode. Minus the tragic backstory stories, though. They're getting a little old.