S10.E21: Dark Dynasty

[DittyDotDot]

Isn't that what the hamster was saying to Crowley and who Crowley sent Stunt Demon No. 4 to find? It was a one-sided conversation, so maybe I read too much into it.

[GirlyGeek]

I'm annoyed. It's either lazy writing, I missed something, or something else is going on.

Charlie calls Sam and Dean and is talking to them about where she is and that someone's there, boys are freaking saying for her to give them whatever they want (which, awwww), Dean grabs the phone heading up the LoL stairs as Charlie says she can't give them anything.

Then...what? The boys hang up the phone and drive? Does Charlie hang up? Wouldn't they try and stay on the phone? Did she call someone else (I know, I love Charlie so I'm having all kinds of wishful thinking like she calls Cass, Cass unwinds Rowena and forces her to do some kind of spell to only make it look like Charlie was still in that bathroom, lol... I'm desperate ;)

Anyway, it's probably just lazy writing (like the one arm thing) but it bugged me

[Bruinsfan]

Well, it's not like Sam exactly has friends of his own.  Who can they kill off that is closer to him than they are to Dean?

Jody Mills seems fonder of Sam than of Dean. If this pair of half-witted hacks kills her off, I'm starting a riot.

 

 

I rolled my eyes at the Frankenstein reveal...honestly couldn't believe they went there.

Yeah, I got the impression the Nepotism Duo intended that to be a really dramatic and frightening reveal, but it might as well have had a Three Stooges kazoo sound effect for all the terror it inspired in me. It was also laughable when Cajun Lackey was telling Dean how he was out of his depth. Short Bus, the Winchesters are personally responsible for killing off ALL the royalty of Hell, including Caine and Lilith, and they averted the Apocalypse by trapping the Devil and the Archangel Michael in its deepest pits. They aren't going to break a sweat dealing with Gene Wilder and Marty Feldman.

[SueB]

I'm going to assume she hung up the phone so the boys wouldn't hear her death scene. I think Charlie made a choice. I can debate the merits of the choice easily BUT in that moment Charlie thought she was trading her life to give Dean a chance at a cure. Not remotely an even trade but it IS right out of the Winchester handbook. Trading Lives, Making Deals, the family business.

For Charlie, who realistically assessed it all ends in death or tears, I think she thought that if she was going to go out fighting, this was worth it. And while I disagree, I can also put myself in Charlie's POV and see why she feels this way.

Charlie was a girl who had incredible skills and made a difference in life (her little diversion of PAC funds to social issue for example). But she also lived vicariously thru the heroes of the stories she read about. So when she met Sam & Dean, she found real life heroes. And her instinctual response was to help save the world. Because that IS who she was. Reasonably, her second instinct was to run as far away from them as she could (excellent instincts). But then when their paths crossed again and she helped defeat another (minor) bad guy, I think she got hooked. She could do this. She started researching but not hunting. She read up on Sam & Dean and figured out that they stopped the Apocalypse. Then Dean (in particular) helps her deal with her Mom. And that was a huge life moment. She starts hunting after that on her own. Then they bring her in for IT help and Oz happened. This was IT. Her chance for her own hero's journey and she took it. Post Oz & Dark Charlie, I think she accepted the gritty reality of the Hunter's life. And she could have stopped right then and re-invented herself again in some safe location with a fabulous IT job. But Chatlie would rather have her own hero journey (blood & floss stitching included) than go back to fantasy. So she sized up the situation and she MIGHT have survived but I think she saw saving Dean a worthwhile cause to go out fighting for. I don't think she made a decision that Dean's life was more important than hers. I just think she couldn't see letting the bad guys get the data she had. She had already had enough run in with the Stynes to know their danger. So, she made a choice that made sense in her head. She was a smart woman so I'll respect the choice.

[catrox14]

I'm becoming more convinced that this a ruse concocted by Charlie and Rowena or even Rowena on her own to turn Dean into her attack dog. She wants Crowley dead and I don't think she believes Sam can kill him.

Why not show Charlie being killed? We've seen pretty much every supporting characters death on screen except for Cain and I'm not sure he's dead. Am I forgetting someone?

On screen major character deaths not named Sam and Dean or Cas

Mary

John

Jessica

Bobby

Ellen and Jo

Clan Campbell

Benny

Kevin

anna

Raphael

uriel

Alastair

Balthazar

Ruby

Abaddon

Gadreel

Minor characters

Jessica

Ronnie

Why would they not give Charlie a proper on screen death? And as controversial as it may be, I also reject that it's only for manpain. The show set the course that it was always going to be about the Winchester brothers and their trials and traumas. It's hard to not have them have some emotional reactions because it's what drives the show. Jmho

Now if Charlie is really most sincerely dead and she knew what the Steins were all about, Charlie might have knifed herself to avoid being harvested. And why would the Steins leave her body behind? They wouldn't especially after papa stein scolded Jacob already about that. It seems that the parts must be harvested from a live body to work hence them scooping her eyeballs before killing the woman. I can live with her killing herself before she could be harvested.

Now if it's a ruse then maybe she knifed herself so a death spell kicks in.

Edited May 8, 2015 by catrox14

[rue721]

Then...what? The boys hang up the phone and drive? Does Charlie hang up? Wouldn't they try and stay on the phone?

 

Didn't Charlie call the Winchesters from her computer, not from her cell phone? I thought she was Google Voicing them (or whatever the SPN-verse equivalent to Google Voice would be). Then she hung up and concentrated on getting her files into ~the cloud~ and smashed her computer.

 

Yeah, I got the impression the Nepotism Duo intended that to be a really dramatic and frightening reveal, but it might as well have had a Three Stooges kazoo sound effect for all the terror it inspired in me.

 

I agree completely that the ~reveal~ was laughably underwhelming. I'm especially disappointed because Frankenstein is one of my favorite books of all time, so when catrox floated the idea that the "Steins" were really the "Frankensteins," I was genuinely excited!

 

But imo one of the best things about Frankenstein was that Dr. Frankenstein *wasn't* evil, he was just a scientist who was so focused on figuring out what he could do, that he didn't stop and think about what he should do. Which is pretty similar to the conundrum that Dean got himself into with the Mark, imo. Dean got mired so deep in the fight against Abaddon that when it turned out he *could* beat her by taking on the Mark, he took it. But now the Mark has taken on a life of its own, like Dr. Frankenstein's creature did.

 

Also, I think that the Frankenstein story makes a pretty interesting parallel to Dean's, since Frankenstein is all about the dangers and responsibilities that come with *giving* life. Dean has been obsessed with "only" being a killer and taking lives, but this season seems like it's all about how his (and other characters') actions have destroyed the people who they "saved" (i.e., the people who they "gave" life).

 

But it seems like that's NOT AT ALL where the show is taking this new "Frankenstein" storyline. Seems like this storyline is just going to be about a family of monsters with corpse parts who kill people and are bffs with all the other ~most-est evil~ people of the world. Le siiiiiigh.

 

I genuinely hate the show's relatively recent obsession with breeding, so I'm hoping against hope that the Men of Letters thing gets dropped (and the bunker destroyed, or maybe taken over by Rowena and her (future) coven), and I'm hoping that this nascent Evil Family Legacy!!1! storyline (with the Frankensteins) gets dropped or at least goes in a different direction somehow. Just not OK with storylines that support "Biology is Destiny," or that seem to say that if you have "bad" blood you're doomed to be evil or that people/families could be bred to be good or evil. YMMV.

Edited May 8, 2015 by rue721

[supposebly]

 

Post Oz & Dark Charlie, I think she accepted the gritty reality of the Hunter's life.

That's all well and good but that doesn't explain why she decides to run away from the only thing that was keeping her safe, i.e. Cas to sit at a motel window because she couldn't deal with a few snide remarks about herself she knew perfectly well already.

Especially since she's been on the run from these creeps for quite a while. I never really liked her much, mostly because I'm no fan of Felicia Day's shtick but stupid, she is not. Hermione would be ashamed.

 

It also doesn't explain how Cas didn't notice. Last time, I checked (season 6, I think), he is perfectly capable of hearing through walls.

 

I hate those two writers and I won't ever watch an episode they wrote again. They need to get fired.

[GirlyGeek]

I'm becoming more convinced that this a ruse concocted by Charlie and Rowena or even Rowena on her own to turn Dean into her attack dog. She wants Crowley dead and I don't think she believes Sam can kill him.

I'm gonna agree with you. Something here stinks (besides the writing). And, no, I'm not in denial. Ha

[AwesomO4000]

But imo one of the best things about Frankenstein was that Dr. Frankenstein *wasn't* evil, he was just a scientist who was so focused on figuring out what he could do, that he didn't stop and think about what he should do. Which is pretty similar to the conundrum that Dean got himself into with the Mark, imo. Dean got mired so deep in the fight against Abaddon that when it turned out he *could* beat her by taking on the Mark, he took it. But now the Mark has taken on a life of its own, like Dr. Frankenstein's creature did.

 

Also, I think that the Frankenstein story makes a pretty interesting parallel to Dean's, since Frankenstein is all about the dangers and responsibilities that come with *giving* life. Dean has been obsessed with "only" being a killer and taking lives, but this season seems like it's all about how his (and other characters') actions have destroyed the people who they "saved" (i.e., the people who they "gave" life).

 

But it seems like that's NOT AT ALL where the show is taking this new "Frankenstein" storyline. Seems like this storyline is just going to be about a family of monsters with corpse parts who kill people and are bffs with all the other ~most-est evil~ people of the world. Le siiiiiigh.

 

There could be a way this could be saved and/or brought back to the original theme, especially if Dr. Frankenstein was a "good" guy - i.e. as you said, he was trying to do something good or important with his experiments (create life from death)  and break out of the "family tradition" - but ironically the rest of the evil family just ended up using his experiments / knowledge to further their own evil agenda (killing people for their own purposes rather than creating life). If they continue with the Frankensteins next season, maybe Sam and Dean could find Dr. Frankenstein's journal where they learn that he was trying to break out of the family mold, and maybe some important information on how to stop the rest of the 'Steins. Or even Dr. Frankenstein's ghost - attached to some family thing they find or even the journal - could contact the Winchester's to work with them to finally stop his evil family, and we learn that what his family used his experimental knowledge for was never what he intended.

 

Edited to add:

 

And oh, I meant to ask - I don't think anyone mentioned it yet - but was that poor girl from the beginning the same actress who played the "innocent ingenue" The Trickster created to "prank" the professor in the beginning of "Tall Tales?" I don't usually recognize the repeat bit players, but - ironically - her eyes were somewhat unique and I had a flash that that was who she might be.

Edited May 8, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[Omegamom]

I'm still grumpy about stupid!Charlie in this episode. Cas takes Rowena off into a separate room? Put Charlie's desk and Charlie there. Rowena nattering too much? Use sound-canceling headphones. Charlie doesn't want to be around Rowena at all, no how, no way? She goes off to a Java cafe, like where she learned all her nerdly tricks, safely in the eye of the anonymous public.

Bah. Bah bah bah. Bitch, moan, grumble, groan, complain, complain, complain.

Oh, and poor Jared Padalecki is feeling down because of all the fanhate. Go pat his head on Twitter. It's not *his* fault!

[DittyDotDot]

Everyone was buckets full of stupid in this episode, IMO. Sam was stupid for not just telling Dean the truth and dealing with the consequences like a a grown up. Both Sam and Dean were stupid for leaving that guy in the dungeon alone and with only one handcuff. Charlie was stupid for needing "alone time." Cass was stupid for not paying better attention. And, Dean was stupid for not just calling bullshit on everyone else's stupid and walking away from all of them. Seriously, they are all TERRIBLE liars!

[SueB]

That's all well and good but that doesn't explain why she decides to run away from the only thing that was keeping her safe, i.e. Cas to sit at a motel window because she couldn't deal with a few snide remarks about herself she knew perfectly well already.

Especially since she's been on the run from these creeps for quite a while. I never really liked her much, mostly because I'm no fan of Felicia Day's shtick but stupid, she is not. Hermione would be ashamed.

 

It also doesn't explain how Cas didn't notice. Last time, I checked (season 6, I think), he is perfectly capable of hearing through walls.

 

I hate those two writers and I won't ever watch an episode they wrote again. They need to get fired.

 

To be fair she didn't know the Stynes were in town.  She'd been ducking the Stynes on her own for MONTHS.  Rowena was on her nerves and she needed to get to a quiet place.  She probably felt Cas and Sam were being overprotective (which they do, all the time).  As someone who does intense computer-based analysis, I can appreciate the need to be in the right place and right frame of mind to solve a problem. Part of her "process" was talking out loud.  And she did solve the problem in relatively short time when left alone.  But I think if she knew the Stynes were there, she wouldn't have left Cas' protection.  Again, it comes down to the need to keep the secret was a hindrance to communication.  Sam didn't blow off Cas completely but he also didn't give him the full situation.  

 

As for the rest of it .... you're right that these two are abysmal when it comes to in-story logic.  Shall I count the ways? (I feel the need to count the ways...) ETA: Feel free to jump straight to the box score at the end!

- Either Eldon is a particularly dim bulb in the Styne family or they just unlucky this ONE time because there was a janitor in the building and he's committing murder.  And why not just take out the janitor and clean up both bodies? No bodies, no crime.  Bag 'em up, put them in a van, clean up the crime scene, take out the surveillance.  This has to be standard Styne M.O..Papa Sytne had every right to demote this dummy. He left an evidence trail a mile wide.  And since apparently the Winchesters have never spotted them before AND 'never leave a body behind' is the Styne mantra the writers REALLY counted on this one member of the family being stupid and Papa Styne giving him a second chance.  So... Eldon drawing Winchester attention is Plot Contrivance #1

- "You won't forget the grocery shopping?" - Please, Rowena would have said "You won't forget to go to the market?".  Minor nit but shows Sloppy Writing #1. 

- Sam's epic fail on excuses. Dude lies for a living.  "I do that" was so very obvious.  Dumbing Down a character #1

- No "explainer" for what Cas was doing before he was put on babysitting duty. Cas should objected with "I'm still on the hunt for ..." (and maybe not identify who in front of Rowena) but Metatron and the demon tablet seem obvious.  Major gaff. Sloppy Writing #2

- They went BACK TO THE BUNKER?!?!  It's over 3 hrs to Omaha. The case wasn't over. In fact another dude goes missing right away.  This is SO not the Winchester pattern.  Plot Contrivance #2

- They failed to notice a tail? To Lebanon, with those back roads?  And the car was right in their rear.  Plot Contrivance #3, Dumbing Down two characters #2 & #3.

- Nearly 24hrs had to have passed (or they ate two dinners) in the space of two scenes, as they were chowing down a wrap and burger in the car and then Sam is sending Dean out for pizza (at night) because they have no food. Temporal Anomaly #1

- I had no problem with Cas being a horrible liar because Misha pulled the scene off so well. So minor charge of character dumbing down is not levied.

- How did Dean get one dead body, one hostage, and two cars cleaned up from that alley? I'll car this "par" for Supernatural Plot Holes, and not levy a charge.

- ONE HANDCUFF? And loose at that.  And failed to take his phone? Nope Nope Nope. Two counts of Dumbing Down (#4 & #5).

- Cas cannot handle Rowena and Charlie. He had to be TOLD to separate them? I accept that his powers may be weakened and he's cut off from Heaven... but two panicked phone calls to Sam? One count of Dumbing Down #6 

- Eldon did some serious Evil Monuloguing (#1). Now they explained it away with his arrogance, but it there was no reason to give up all those family secrets. 

ETA:

- Dean didn't know Frankenstein was a book by Mary Shelley?  Dumbing Down #7

- Sam said evil people were hunting for Charlie.  He could have added 'AND THEY ARE IN TOWN'.  If Cas had tipped off Charlie to this imminent threat, she wouldn't have left. I'm going to give this a Plot Contrivance charge #4 and essential Tragic Miscommunication #1

- The timeline from when Dean found out the book couldn't be destroyed to forcing Sam to come clean - worked out JUST RIGHT (too slow) so that all the rest of the plot could unfold Plot Contrivance #5

- Charlie goes to the motel alone. Although I personally can see WHY, if she didn't have the full picture, it comes across as Character Assassination #1 (a much more serious version of Dumbing Down).  And of course directly required for Plot Contrivance #6.

- The second Styne guy with a SAG card IMMEDIATELY SPOTS CHARLIE? She evades them for months but with ZERO explanation, he picks up her trail in Lebanon?  There's no justification for this. It's a Deus Ex Machina #1 for the villains. And the rest of S10 is dependent on this.  

- Lebanon is 1 square mile (at best) and <1mi from the Geographic Center of the lower 48 (presumably where the MoL bunker is). It should take no time for Cas to run to her motel when she went missing. He went out to get snacks earlier. WHY didn't Sam send Cas to check her motel (likely the only one in town) while he explained shit to Dean. Precious minutes were lost. Plot Contrivance #7. I'd add Sloppy Writing but the staff generally ignores the reality of the towns they are in.

- Dean bitching out Sam because Sam went against his wishes. 1 Count of Anvilous Parallels. 

- Eldon has time to fight Charlie,likely harvest some organs and drive away from the motel before Sam and Dean get there. Temporal Anomaly #2

 

So... to review the Script Issues:

- 1 Count of Deus Ex Machina for the villains

- 7 Counts of Plot Contrivance

- 1 Count of Character Assassination ...leading to her assassination

- 7 Counts of Dumbing Down (updated)

- 2 Counts of Temporal Anomaly

- 1 Count of Tragic Miscommunication

- 1 Count of Evil Monologuing

- 1 Count Anvilious Parallels

 

I hold Carver & Singer responsible for the overall charge of 

- Fridging Your Darlings

 

I imagine any good DA could get the Nepotism Duo banned for life from the show BUT... Bob Singer will grant them a pardon because they do his dirty work for him.  Thus, they'll still be writing. 

Edited May 8, 2015 by SueB

[Demented Daisy]

Everyone was buckets full of stupid in this episode, IMO. Sam was stupid for not just telling Dean the truth and dealing with the consequences like a a grown up. Both Sam and Dean were stupid for leaving that guy in the dungeon alone and with only one handcuff. Charlie was stupid for needing "alone time." Cass was stupid for not paying better attention. And, Dean was stupid for not just calling bullshit on everyone else's stupid and walking away from all of them. Seriously, they are all TERRIBLE liars!

 

 

Brain damage, I'm tellin' ya.

[DittyDotDot]

I was just saying the other day they needed to invest in some football helmets before they lost anymore of their brain cells to head trauma! ;)

[Bruinsfan]

I had previously assumed that every time Cas or another angel has healed them since the beginning of Season 4, the concussion clock has been reset to zero. But maybe not?

[FlickChick]

Sue B: "I imagine any good DA could get the Nepotism Duo banned for life from the show BUT... Bob Singer will grant them a pardon because they do his dirty work for him.  Thus, they'll still be writing."  This is exactly what pisses me off! How can any good show-runner continue to pay these assholes for their scripts! Someone at the beginning of this thread expressed concern that Robbie Thompson may be pissed off enough to leave the show. If that happens, I'll be doubly pissed, because he can write circles around these assholes. I refuse to call them "writers", because, IMO they do not deserve the term.

[Goldmoon]

Loved your analysis SueB.

[SueB]

Sue B: "I imagine any good DA could get the Nepotism Duo banned for life from the show BUT... Bob Singer will grant them a pardon because they do his dirty work for him.  Thus, they'll still be writing."  This is exactly what pisses me off! How can any good show-runner continue to pay these assholes for their scripts! Someone at the beginning of this thread expressed concern that Robbie Thompson may be pissed off enough to leave the show. If that happens, I'll be doubly pissed, because he can write circles around these assholes. I refuse to call them "writers", because, IMO they do not deserve the term.

Shall I make it worse?  They are also producers. Which is an industry way to give them more money. To be honest MOST of the writers get this credit for this precise reason.  Honestly, they are usually sub-par on writing for precisely the type of reasons I listed above. But I also think that Carver/Singer have used these two for the big muscle movement of mythology.  So that's their focus. I think they once said something to the effect that they try to draw the lines between all of their mythology scripts so it hangs together. Honestly, I don't know if they have ever created a piece of mythology and then specifically violated it.  I'm CERTAIN they have produced LOL!Canon scripts. I don't know if those canon errors were directed by Carver/Singer or reflect a lack of attention to detail for scripts that are not their own.  I'm not remotely justifying them, but I can also see how it's just easy to keep them on for their specific purpose.  They'll get X minimum number of scripts a year and one can only hope they do minimal damage while filling in the words around Carver/Singer's big picture.  But I'm pretty also sure Carver gets in on some specifics dialog in the script. There were a few things said that sounded more like him than them.  I think the other writers start off with a good script that pays attention to the details and avoid many of the "crimes" I listed above.  And honestly, who hired Bobo Berens? I'm guessing Carver. And he and Robbie Thomspon are my favorites and as far as I can tell, have the least incidence of these "crimes" in general. 

 

And notice Singer directed this one.  And while Bob has done some good ones, that double zoom to the arm??? Was that supposed to be funny? Cause it wasn't.  

[Bruinsfan]

One of the reasons I don't go to conventions anymore is that the temptation to ask some really rude questions about actors' and other writers' opinions of their scripts would be irresistible. And while I have basically no respect for the writing duo and very little for the executive producers regarding their continued employment, I don't want to put Misha Collins or Robbie Thompson on the spot like that.

[Aeryn13]

I think one of the funniest thing was Eldon Styne bemoaning that after Mary Shelley stumbled upon their secret, they were forced to change their name and go undercover and OMG, how horrible. And all they did was drop "Franken" from their name. Like, they dropped HALF their surname, nothing more. I mean, that is least inspired case of concealing your identity I`ve ever seen. Still, it worked. 

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

Isn't that what the hamster was saying to Crowley and who Crowley sent Stunt Demon No. 4 to find? It was a one-sided conversation, so maybe I read too much into it.

I was wondering who he is summoning. Do we know for a fact that its Rowena's Demon lover? Didn't one of the synopsis say Crowley calls on an old enemy for help? 

[DittyDotDot]

I think one of the funniest thing was Eldon Styne bemoaning that after Mary Shelley stumbled upon their secret, they were forced to change their name and go undercover and OMG, how horrible. And all they did was drop "Franken" from their name. Like, they dropped HALF their surname, nothing more. I mean, that is least inspired case of concealing your identity I`ve ever seen. Still, it worked. 

 

Heh, well, they did change the spelling of the second half too! ;)

[Aeryn13]

That`s what made it iron-clad. Heh.

[Omegamom]

Well, to be fair, there a helluva lot of Steins in the Germanic areas of Europe. Sort of like changing your name to "Smith" or "Jones" and fading into the woodwork. But...so they just ditched their castle? Shifted their Vast Hoard o' Wealth into different names? Sheesh. If they're Big Baddies, they should have just killed Mary Shelley before she wrote the book. Or quashed the publication. Or hired a boatload of bad reviewers after the publication.

I am not impressed with the Stynes. Though Jacob was fiiiine, mmmm.

[Aeryn13]

It`s actually not really a common name in Germany. In fact, I`d say it`s waaaaay down the list. But I guess "House of Mueller" just doesn`t have the same ring to it. 

[Demented Daisy]

It's spelled differently, but I think it's much more common in the Netherlands.  (Steyn, maybe?)

 

Burg Frankenstein has an awesome Halloween party every year!  These Stynes obviously have nothing to do with that.  ;)

 

ETA http://www.frankenstein-halloween.de/content/e566/index_en.html

Edited May 9, 2015 by Demented Daisy

[supposebly]

If they spelled it Styne in continental Europe, it would actually have stood out. That "silent e" at the end outs it as English spelling. I'm fairly certain pronouncing the letter 'y' like 'i' is also typical to English but not to the other Germanic languages.

Only English speakers would pronounce Styne like Stein. In German, the letter 'y' is pronounced like "ü" and 'i' is mostly pronounced 'ee'. Non-English speakers would have pronounced it stü-ne with two syllables, maybe stee-ne with two syllables.

 

Stein doesn't really occur much alone in Germany, usually as part of a word like Steinberg, Steinheim or Bergstein, Oberstein, Steinmeyer, Steinmüller....

 

A quick check in the German phone book shows some Frankensteins but no Steins. No Victor, though.

 

Sigh. I wish they would stick to American history and legends. Wasn't that the whole point of the show? Now we have Sam understanding Italian Renaissance nuns and fakeEuropean Frankensteins....Next season, DemonDean will drive a Mercedes and like it.

[Ria]

Seems like this storyline is just going to be about a family of monsters with corpse parts who kill people and are bffs with all the other ~most-est evil~ people of the world.

 

 

I don't like where the show appears to be heading with this family either. I didn't like the boast by whatever his name was (he who tore off his own arm) that his family was responsible for everything from Hitler coming to power to 9/11 to stock market crashes etc. An evil family going back centuries is borderline plausible, but a family who has been controlling human affairs to such a degree is just way overboard for my taste. In a sense, it cheapens how the events really happened by claiming it was all one family's manipulations.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Ria

[Demented Daisy]

I don't like where the show appears to be heading with this family either. I didn't like the boast by whatever his name was (he who tore off his own arm) that his family was responsible for everything from Hitler coming to power to 9/11 to stock market crashes etc. An evil family going back centuries is borderline plausible, but a family who has been controlling human affairs to such a degree is just way overboard for my taste. In a sense, it cheapens how the events really happened by claiming it was all one family's manipulations.

 

I agree.  It's an odd distinction, I know, but I would have preferred it if they had been controlling natural disasters, as opposed to human-caused tragedy.  

 

It disturbs me that not only have the Stynes caused the death and misery of millions, but they've also led to the false imprisonment and death of how many more people?  It just doesn't sit right with me.

 

(I mean, seriously!  They just made this family responsible for the Holocaust.  How can TPTB get away with the good guys ignoring that?)

[DittyDotDot]

I assume the Stynes and the MoL are supposed to be counterpoints and without the MoL keeping them in-check, the Stynes have probably run amuck over the years, I just find it all rather mundane and boring. I guess I'm just not interested in watching the fighting between all these secret societies. Sounds very Agents of S.H.E.I.L.D. vs. Hydra and not very Supernatural--a broken family, on the road, helping people one town at a time.

 

I also can't wrap my head around the Stynes not knowing of the Winchesters. If they were so all-powerful and all-knowing shouldn't have they taken note of these two guys who are always throwing a wrench in the works? I can buy them not thinking of them as a threat, but to never have heard of them before is a bit incredulous to me.

Edited May 10, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[Demented Daisy]

At this point, every damn witch, angel, monster, demon -- anyone that knows anything about the supernatural should know who the Winchesters are.  It's ludicrous otherwise, IMO.

[ulkis]

I was told about what happened in this episode, and I don't have a lot of emotion about it because I haven't been a regular watcher in a long time, but honestly I think it shows that they just are completely dry of ideas, at least for Sam and Dean. I wonder if there's any chance there's going to be a season 12. The only way I can see them being able to have any new ideas for that is to give Sam and Dean permanent amnesia so they can be built from scratch as new characters.

[catrox14]

I was told about what happened in this episode, and I don't have a lot of emotion about it because I haven't been a regular watcher in a long time, but honestly I think it shows that they just are completely dry of ideas, at least for Sam and Dean. I wonder if there's any chance there's going to be a season 12. The only way I can see them being able to have any new ideas for that is to give Sam and Dean permanent amnesia so they can be built from scratch as new characters.

There is no way they throw out 10 years of history. They can't unless they just want to obliterate any love this show has ever had. The history and the universe are still rich with possibilities.

[ulkis]

There is no way they throw out 10 years of history. They can't unless they just want to obliterate any love this show has ever had. The history and the universe are still rich with possibilities.

 

I don't really think they would actually do that. But these writers don't seem to know what to do with Sam and Dean besides kill off all their friends.

Edited May 10, 2015 by ulkis

[catrox14]

I don't really think they would actually do that. But these writers don't seem to know what to do with Sam and Dean besides kill off all their friends.

 

I'm destroyed when it happens and it sucks and it hurts and it upsets me and I want Dean to have Benny, and Charlie(eh...sort of). In the end though IMO since the  show started with their mother and Sam's gf being killed kind of set the tone. The Hunter life means the odds were never in their favor that they would get to have nice things like friends for very long or their own families with a wife (or husband, 'waves at Cas') or children. 

 

Add to that, they have pissed off and taken down demons, angels, archangels, ghosts, vampires, shapeshifters, the Mother of All monsters, Dick Roman and the Leviathans, and now apparently the Fraaankenschteens (I will never not say it that way..Thanks Young Frankenstein!) are gonna be a problem.  Essentially, The Winchester family is cursed! I suppose we can now say they are officially cursed by Lucifer with the Mark of Cain.

[Tippi Blevins]

I'm just still really worried about the pizza Dean went to pick up before he was ambushed by the Stynes.

 

Is it destroyed? Did he leave it in the alley? Did it have cheese-filled crust?

[AwesomO4000]

Hee Tippi Blevins... and did Sam starve without dinner?

 

I swear Sam needs to learn to cook or something, because going to get food just seems to be a way for both of these guys to get into trouble. Heck going to get food even led to Sam's death - well the first one anyway.

[Tippi Blevins]

Yeah, they should look into stocking up. What if the world really does end and they're trapped in there? There should be barrels full of whiskey and stacks of MREs thicker than Dean's shirt layers.

[Bruinsfan]

I don't like where the show appears to be heading with this family either. I didn't like the boast by whatever his name was (he who tore off his own arm) that his family was responsible for everything from Hitler coming to power to 9/11 to stock market crashes etc. An evil family going back centuries is borderline plausible, but a family who has been controlling human affairs to such a degree is just way overboard for my taste. In a sense, it cheapens how the events really happened by claiming it was all one family's manipulations.

Ladies and Gentlemen, Buckner and Ross-Lemming, approaching touchy subjects with all the sensitivity of a leprous Archie Bunker since 2006.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Bruinsfan

[Cranberry]

I haven't watched this episode yet. I'm not sure I will. Aside from this one, I have seen every single episode of this show; I started watching the day the pilot aired in 2005 (actually, I feel like maybe I saw a screener copy before it aired on TV, but I can't be sure). I'm so pissed off about the writers fridging Charlie that I'm seriously not sure that I want to keep watching.

[PepperMonkey]

And I finally got around to watching this episode and I was not impressed.

 

I never loved Charlie, which is weird cause I liked Felicia Day on The Guild, but I was uber sad to see her killed off. It's not like she was around so often that she got on my nerves or anything. On the other hand, I'm kind of glad we didn't have to watch her be killed onscreen, tortured, screaming and/or whatever. At least they had the decency to do that for her. I'm sort of hoping that if she IS series dead, it doesn't mean she's necessarily gone for good. We see Bobby almost as much since he died as we did before the fact.

 

Now if they kill off Jodi, I will be well and truly pissed.

 

They can kill off Cas any time now, and I never thought I'd say that in a million years. I'd prefer to say they can return him to his previous level of badassery, but I don't think that will happen, so yeah, they can cack him.

 

I liked what someone else said above about how now, Dean can spend half of season 11 blaming and castigating Sam for getting Charlie killed. Dear God on buttered toast, I HATE the way they keep having them do that over and over and over, ad nauseum. One of them is always mad at the other one for doing something stupid while ultimately trying to save the doomed one. Just realize that's what you're going to do and move on.

 

Oh and Crowley and Olivette, the hamster, are adorbs. I'm hoping spin off...

Edited May 13, 2015 by PepperMonkey

[Occasional Hope]

Do the scriptwriters really think a codex has something to do with codes?  It's just a word for a book.

[pixelcat]

On 5/7/2015 at 2:46 AM, Iguana said:

Crowley had great chemistry with the hamster.

 

Made me laugh so hard, where else but on this show would that even make sense?

[Dobian]

They killed Charlie!  Those bastards!  Well, she joins the long of women who have met an untimely demise on this show.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

• Sam is a terrible liar.  Seriously terrible.  And the sudden change of subject is incredibly obvious.  It's wonder Dean let him get away with it.  Maybe he just doesn't want the confrontation?
• I'm really not seeing the urgency to cure Dean that Sam is.  Dean actually seems to be handling things pretty well right now.
• So, I'm guessing there's a porta-potty or something in the abandoned building where Sam has Roweena chained up?  I mean, if it's been days....a girl's gotta go, you know?  Nice she got a change of clothes too.  I was thinking maybe she just magicked herself a new outfit, but Sam said no witchcraft, so I don't know if that was possible.  These are the things which occur to me while watching - practical things.  Cause I'm a practical kind of person.  
• So the Stynes are really Frankensteins.  Waste of a good story (Frankenstein) if you ask me.  The Stynes were already sufficiently creepy without making them related to the good doctor.  That being said, the Louisianna scene at the Styne's home base was boring.  And I kept wondering why Benny had never heard of them and warned Dean previously. 
• Charlie again with the knife - she didn't learn last time?  The guys haven't gotten her a gun yet?  Charlie was actually not too Charlie-Sue in this ep.  So of course she had to die.  
• I have seen elsewhere on the web (don't ask me where, I click so many links, I can't remember) where Sam gets blamed for Charlie's death.  And at the beginning of the ep, I would have agreed; esp. if Charlie had met her demise at the abandoned building.  But, Charlie left.  Left where it was safe and she had an angel to protect her.  No, she sneaked out, behind Cas' back.  And she didn't tell anyone where she was going.  That was irresponsible.  I know Roweena was bugging her, but Charlie wasn't a teenager either.  Put in your headphones and crank up the volume.  Charlie's own stupidity and overconfidence in her own abilities got her killed.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 5/8/2015 at 0:52 PM, rue721 said:

I'm especially disappointed because Frankenstein is one of my favorite books of all time, so when catrox floated the idea that the "Steins" were really the "Frankensteins," I was genuinely excited!

Frankenstein is also one of my favorite books  - so I was seriously underwhelmed by the show's use of the story.  I must have missed where the theory was floated in an earlier thread.

On 5/8/2015 at 0:52 PM, rue721 said:

But imo one of the best things about Frankenstein was that Dr. Frankenstein *wasn't* evil, he was just a scientist who was so focused on figuring out what he could do, that he didn't stop and think about what he should do. Which is pretty similar to the conundrum that Dean got himself into with the Mark, imo. Dean got mired so deep in the fight against Abaddon that when it turned out he *could* beat her by taking on the Mark, he took it. But now the Mark has taken on a life of its own, like Dr. Frankenstein's creature did.

I genuinely hate the show's relatively recent obsession with breeding, so I'm hoping against hope that the Men of Letters thing gets dropped (and the bunker destroyed, or maybe taken over by Rowena and her (future) coven), and I'm hoping that this nascent Evil Family Legacy!!1! storyline (with the Frankensteins) gets dropped or at least goes in a different direction somehow. Just not OK with storylines that support "Biology is Destiny," or that seem to say that if you have "bad" blood you're doomed to be evil or that people/families could be bred to be good or evil. YMMV.

But the monster also wasn't inherently evil in Frankenstein.  That was the part I liked best.  

Disagree about the bunker being destroyed - I actually like it.  I just wish they'd be more consistent with how secure/secret it is or is supposed to be.  Do agree with the "bad blood" part.  

On 5/8/2015 at 1:28 PM, supposebly said:

That's all well and good but that doesn't explain why she decides to run away from the only thing that was keeping her safe, i.e. Cas to sit at a motel window because she couldn't deal with a few snide remarks about herself she knew perfectly well already.

This right here.

On 5/8/2015 at 4:58 PM, SueB said:

- They failed to notice a tail? To Lebanon, with those back roads?  And the car was right in their rear.  Plot Contrivance #3, Dumbing Down two characters #2 & #3.

- Lebanon is 1 square mile (at best) and <1mi from the Geographic Center of the lower 48 (presumably where the MoL bunker is). It should take no time for Cas to run to her motel when she went missing. He went out to get snacks earlier. WHY didn't Sam send Cas to check her motel (likely the only one in town) while he explained shit to Dean. Precious minutes were lost. Plot Contrivance #7. I'd add Sloppy Writing but the staff generally ignores the reality of the towns they are in.

Just to add more plot holes/contrivances/bad writing to the list:

That area of Kansas is pretty flat,  open farmland.  Even on back roads, maybe especially on back roads, a tail would have been super obvious.  

There aren't actually any motels in Lebanon.  There ain't much of anything in Lebanon.  Nearest motel is probably Smith Center, Kansas or Red Cloud, Neb.  That would be around 10-15 miles (min.) from the bunker.  But I don't know where Roweena was being held in relation to the bunker, so maybe she was further out? 

[DittyDotDot]

On 10/9/2016 at 7:20 PM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I'm really not seeing the urgency to cure Dean that Sam is.  Dean actually seems to be handling things pretty well right now.

The show definitely wasn't consistent with this. But then again, they rarely are with these things. It's kinda weird looking back on it how blatant they were in some episodes, to the point it was nonsensical, and others they were so subtle it was almost undetectable. If you take the episodes individually, I think you can see that Dean is not quite himself--which was alarming to me since I do prefer Classic Dean--but, I agree, it doesn't seem like we're really at the point we need to use a book of magic that will probably bring about something far worse in the end.

However, I did think Sam was pretty lackadaisical and was wanting him to take the wheel more with Dean earlier in the season, so I guess I can't really fault him for finally doing that, even if he was doing in a massively stupid manner. Okay, I can fault him for doing it, because he was doing it in a massively stupid manner. ;)

On 10/9/2016 at 7:20 PM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I have seen elsewhere on the web (don't ask me where, I click so many links, I can't remember) where Sam gets blamed for Charlie's death.  And at the beginning of the ep, I would have agreed; esp. if Charlie had met her demise at the abandoned building.  But, Charlie left.  Left where it was safe and she had an angel to protect her.  No, she sneaked out, behind Cas' back.  And she didn't tell anyone where she was going.  That was irresponsible.  I know Roweena was bugging her, but Charlie wasn't a teenager either.  Put in your headphones and crank up the volume.  Charlie's own stupidity and overconfidence in her own abilities got her killed.  

Don't even get me started on the fridging of Charlie. It has to be the worst and most pointless death ever on this show. And, I was never a Charlie enthusiast, but did enjoy her in small doses. I can't say I really was all that upset she was dead, jut annoyed at how they did it. The blame being put on Sam? Well, Sam had his part to play in the mess simply because he was being duplicitous, but Charlie got herself killed, IMO. No one forced her to work secretly with Sam and certainly no one forced her to leave the warehouse and go it alone. She made choices and now she's dead because of those choices. It's all so damned stupid, if you ask me.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

6 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Don't even get me started on the fridging of Charlie. It has to be the worst and most pointless death ever on this show.

I don't think this is too spoilery, but just in case...

Spoiler

After watching Brother's Keeper, I'm not so sure it was pointless.  They obviously needed something else to blame Sam for.  "Sam started the apocolypse" was SO 6 seasons ago.  Even "Sam hit a dog" must have been getting old.  And the Lester thing - well, it didn't have quite the impact as this did, huh?  Now we can all repeatedly say "Sam killed Charlie."  //snark

[MysteryGuest]

Charlie's murder and the whole Stein/Styne story arc were completely ridiculous for so many reasons.  Major plot contrivances to get us to this point.  Charlie was shown to not be stupid, so I don't believe for a second she would sneak off back to her hotel just to get away from an annoying Rowena.  So pick a different room in the damn building you're in if you need some quiet time.  And what of Castiel?  He can sense all sorts of stuff when it suits the writers, but he was clueless that Charlie had left and was in danger? And no one bothered to call him when they knew she was in trouble?  And there's a time limit on reviving people?  I call bullshit!

As for the Steins/Stynes, if they're so all powerful that they're responsible for all the calamities in the world, then how come Dean could wipe them out in an afternoon?  Seriously, unless they plan to show up again at some point down the road, that was just an absurd storyline.  And Charlie absolutely deserved better than that, even if they did want to get rid of her character.

[catrox14]

The misogyny of Charlie not being able to deal with Rowena, the stupidity of her leaving her blinds open and well her death are just so gross.  I could live with Charlie dying but not like they did it. It was fucking ridiculous. My favorite part of the episode was Dean figuring out that Sam was up to something and they way he menaced and lurked over Sam was actually terrifying IMO.